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Former Governor Haley Barbour joined The Extra Mile podcast to talk about his political career, Hurricane Katrina recovery stories, the link between transportation infrastructure and economic development, tort reform and more.
Tune in to The Extra Mile presented by the Mississippi Department of Transportation. Co-hosts Paul Katool and Will Craft take listeners inside the world of transportation infrastructure in Mississippi.
MDOT presents The Extra Mile podcast.
(Paul) Welcome in to another episode of the Extra Mile podcast presented by the Mississippi Department of Transportation. I’m MDOT Digital Media Manager Paul Katool. As always I’m joined by my co-host Will Craft. He handles government and constituent affairs here at MDOT.
I’m excited for a lot of stories, a lot of anecdotes today. So, we’ve got former Governor of the State of Mississippi Haley Barbour in the house today. Thank you so much, Governor Barbour for joining us.
(Gov. Barbour) Oh thank y’ all for having me. Thanks for what you do.
(Paul) Absolutely. Absolutely. So, just a little bit of information about you. So, elected in 2003 and assumed office in 2004 as governor of the state of Mississippi and served two terms. But that’s about all I’m going to say. Can you give me a little more information on you know why you uh ran for office and kind of take us through your career a little bit.
(Gov. Barbour) Well, I grew up in Yazoo City and my father died when I was two and so my mother raised my two older brothers and me. Everybody in my family was a lawyer and so I assumed that I would come home to Yazoo City and practice law like my father did and like his father did. And in 1968 I ran for president student body at Ole Miss and fortunately I lost because within a few weeks the Nixon campaign hired me to run 30 counties in Mississippi for Nixon which I couldn’t have done if I had president of student body. I would have had to be in school.
So very few republicans in Mississippi in 1968. In fact, the first poll I ever saw in politics six percent of people said they were Republicans. And we lost to George Wallace. Didn’t lose to the Democrats. Lost to independent. But one thing led to another. I was asked to run the census in Mississippi in 1970 which I which I did. Had 2,700 employees and I was 22 years old.
(Paul) Wow!
(Gov. Barbour) So, I came back for the ‘72 campaign which I ran in Mississippi. Became secretary of the state party for four years. Still never had any idea I’d ever run for office. But one thing led to another. I became political director of the White House for Ronald Reagan in 1985 and six which I wouldn’t give anything for. Then I finally went home to practice law with my family like I was supposed to. And one thing led to another.
I worked in the I worked in the Ford I mean in the Bush campaign in ‘88. Got elected chairman of the national committee in nineteen ‘93 and chairman when we won back the house and senate for the first time in 40 years in 1994. And then finally I went back I started a lobbying firm in 1997 when I left the White House.
Went back there and decided to run for governor. And it’s the only elected office I’ve ever held. I was never a legislator or city councilman or a mayor. But it just seemed like the right time and as it it turned out to be. Having been a lobbyist in Washington for many years and worked with Thad and Trent and our delegation and George Bush. It was a good time to have a lobbyist when we had Katrina.
(Will) Ain’t that the truth?
(Gov. Barbour) Because so much of our recovery was dependent on the federal government. And they really, they really really bent over backwards for us. And uh of course our people were so strong and so such good examples. But that’s how I turned out to do this. It was all kind of an accident.
(Paul) That’s amazing. Always interesting to see how people get where they you know go career-wise.
(Will) That’s right. And you just mentioned a lot of things we’re going to get into specifically some of these relationships that you that you’ve been able to craft over the years from political uh to personal and otherwise. But the last thing you just touched on is certainly we want to talk about a little Katrina. Um, there’s many memorable things I know that happened during your time as governor but certainly not the least which was the Katrina events that took place. Uh, what are maybe some of the most memorable things that stand out from that time?
(Gov. Barbour) Well, Will, uh there’s no question that my administration will be remembered about Katrina. It’s the worst natural disaster in American history. You know our state bore the brunt of the storm. I mean what happened in Louisiana was terrible, don’t get me wrong. But we the storm hit the Mississippi Gulf Coast. And at Waveland for instance there was a 38-foot storm surge. If you can imagine a 38 wave, not a single structure left standing in Waveland today that night of the storm.
I remember flying over the coast on Tuesday morning. We couldn’t get there on Monday. They wouldn’t let us fly as you can imagine. But at any rate, I told somebody that as we flew over the helicopter from the Mississippi River, I mean from the Pearl River, the Mississippi – Louisiana line to Mobile it looked like the hand of God had wiped away the coast. I mean it was utter obliteration. You cannot imagine. We had about 25,000 homes that were totally gone. Uh, I used to say we coined a new verb. We were slabbed meaning there was nothing left in my house but a slab.
(Paul) Yikes!
(Gov. Barbour) And there’s I say more than 25,000 of those. We had a 100,000 homes that were uninhabitable after the storm. And we were by God’s grace we only had 273 if I remember right fatalities. In Louisiana they had about eighteen hundred and with the what we went through versus what we went through we were really, really really blessed. And my wife used to say the most memorable thing about the storm was when it was over. People were wanting to know how they could help other people. It was helping the little old lady across the street who’s a shut-in or somebody’s kids or even people’s even people’s pets.
(Will) Oh yeah.
(Gov. Barbour) So, it was really as perverse as it may sound it was really one of Mississippi’s finest hours.
(Will) sure.
(Gov. Barbour) I was talking to Ed Rendell. We we were doing a radio show in fact together and he was governor of Pennsylvania when the storm hit and he called me the next day and said, “What can I do?” Democrat governor, chairman of the democratic national committee like I’d been chairman of the republican national committee. And I said, “Look, I got four thousand national guard in Iraq.” And we did. We had a 4,000-man unit, 3,000 thousand of whom were from Mississippi.
(Wil) Oh wow!
(Gov. Barbour) And I said you know these are the people that would be trying to help us recover. They sent 2,500 Pennsylvania national guard.
(Will) Oh wow!
(Paul) That’s awesome.
(Gov. Barbour) They stayed for a month.
(Will) I did not know that.
(Gov. Barbour) And Ed said to me a few weeks after. He said, “The most unbelievable thing I could hear from my own people was I want to go back.”
(Will) Oh wow!
(Gov. Barbour) Those people are helping and they’re so grateful that I want to go back. And we saw that from church groups from everybody you can imagine. It was something that made you proud of being a Mississippian.
(Will) Absolutely. Well and on that same note um our director Brad White who I’m sure you’re very familiar with he has said it before, and we try to make this known oftentimes our MDOT folks are not categorized in that same category as first responders but I’m sure you could attest to seeing plenty of MDOT folks and patrol out there clearing the highways to to get the highway patrol and others through there.
(Gov. Barbour) Will, the night before the storm you know the storm came in about daybreak on Monday morning. But the night before Marsha and a group of highway patrolmen about a 120 highway patrol well she went down with them. And she saw people and she got her all stoked up. So, she came back and then went down during the storm on Monday. And once they got to Hattiesburg the highway department guys had you got four lanes across two on two northbound to southbound. And they cleared with two bulldozers the southbound lane, and behind which were a 120 highway patrolmen behind which were 600 national guard that we had pre-deployed to Camp Shelby.
(Will) So, literally clearing the way.
(Gov. Barbour) Literally clearing the way and that went over and over and over and over because the destruction was so hard to believe. I remember the head of the railroad that runs from New Orleans to to Meridian.
(Will) Right. Yes, sir.
(Gov. Barbour) At the time I used to know him, and he called me to see how they could help blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But in the conversation he said they had down in the right-of-way for the railroad line so here’s these railroad lines a few feet across. But there’s a big right-of-way an average of 500 trees per mile.
(Will) Oh gosh.
(Paul) Wow!
(Gov. Barbour) Can you imagine? Because those pine trees just snapped. And and the big hardwoods fall over. One thing you learned after a few hurricanes is that the big trees, the big hardwoods, they fall, roots come up, the pine trees they get cut in half.
(Paul) Wow!
(Gov. Barbour) Pretty crazy.
(Will) That is something. Yeah. I bet you did see a lot of that going on. I mean and from you know everything else that was going on down there I know um lots of memories. I was a I was a pretty young fella at that time, but I can only imagine the Impact that that has. Parks MacNabb uh old uh buddy of yours.
(Gov. Barbour) Parks traveled with me a long time.
(Will) He works here with us now. He keeps me in line doing the government affairs work but
(Gov. Barbour) Tell him Hi. He’s a good man.
(Will) I sure will. He mentioned before when y’ all were flying over you see the piles of debris but what you didn’t realize until you were on the ground is those were some thirty feet high.
(Gov. Barbour) Some of them were. That’s exactly right. If you take where the railroad goes just you know north of the beach.
(Will) Right.
(Gov. Barbour) 30, 40, 50 feet high there because the storm surge pushed everything. I mean everything between the water and the railroad got pushed and it hit the railroad right away and it piled up on top of itself. You’ve never seen anything like it. And it’s trees. It’s houses. It’s cars. It’s motorcycles. It’s school buses. It’s just unbelievable.
(Will) And as you mentioned Miss Marsha was kind of your eyes on the ground there at times too.
(Gov. Barbour) Marsha I’m very proud to say in the first 90 days after the storm she went to the Coast.
(Will) Oh wow!
(Gov. Barbour) And she worked with FEMA. She worked with MEMA. She worked with the patrol. And she felt like her job was to try to help people who didn’t know where to go to get help.
(Will) Sure.
(Gov. Barbour) To show them where to go to get help. And that was that was uh her biggest thing. And I have to tell you one little story that’ll make you understand why I’m as proud of Mississippi as I am.
Just above Bay Saint Louis Highway 63 I think runs up to runs up north into Pearl River County and Marsha had found out that the FEMA materials, they didn’t have baby stuff. You know didn’t have diapers, didn’t have baby food. So, Marsha found a place where there had been a warehouse full of stuff for the state. So, she would drive around with two highway patrolmen in the back of the pickup truck full of baby stuff.
(Will) Oh man.
(Gov. Barbour) So, she’s going up from Bay Saint Louis and she sees hits the jackpot. Here’s a man and two little toddlers in front of a trailer that Marsha said looked like a beer can. Somebody had just twisted it. It was just totally destroyed. So, they pull over and the boys, the patrolmen started getting out baby stuff. And after a little bit the man said, “Awe look.” I had no idea who they were the man. “But this is plenty for us. This is plenty.” And one of the patrolmen said, “Look, Mister, we got plenty so don’t worry. We’re not going to run out.” And he said, “Well, look she’s not going to run out.”
“There’s a little old lady across the road who’s a shut-in and I know nobody’s been there to help her, but now it’s about four days after the storm.” And Mike Cooper the patrolman (?) said, “Mister, We’re fine.” He said, “Look” the man “If you really do have plenty if you go down this road about a quarter of a mile and turn back sharp angle there’s six families that live over there and I know nobody’s found them.”
So, Marsha comes home that night and she said, “I know everything’s gonna be alright.” I said, “Why?” She said, “Because.” She tells me this story. When people want to make sure the little old lady across the road who’s a shut-in gets taken care of before they do, before their children do
(Will) That’s right.
(Gov. Barbour) These are tough people.
(Will) That’s right.
(Gov. Barbour) And they’re the right kind of people. Turned out the man had four more children. And his wife had walked to Bay Saint Louis looking for food to bring back to the quote trailer.
(Will) Yeah. What was left of it. That’s right. Goodness gracious. I can only imagine.
(Gov. Barbour) That’s happened over and over and over and over.
(Will) I’m sure. Well in celebrating the what was it 17 years ago? Now it seems like it was yesterday I’m sure and lots of minds out there, but we were proud to have you during that. And as you mentioned your connections with Senator Cochran were the highest value at that time. Brad’s mentioned it before that you know had it not been for you and Senator Cochran the coast would still not be what it is today.
(Gov. Barbour) I don’t know about that, but Senator Cochran was chairman of the senate appropriations committee which in this particular instance is the most powerful position. And he came down on Wednesday the day after I’d been to the coast. He came he came back that afternoon at the helicopter and told me he had seen what is was couldn’t believe it. And then he told me something that he’d lived by. You tell me what you need, and we’ll try to get it. And over and over and over when we’d run into a barrier Senator Cochran would get around the barrier.
Uh George Bush was also extremely bending over backwards to try to help. People know who people who are not from Mississippi they know that if this happened in Texas or if this happened in Massachusetts, I would want the Mississippi guys to help me.
(Will) Sure.
(Gov. Barbour) So, I’m going to help them. Barney Frank of all people left, left, left, left wing Democrat in the house. I saw him in the Capitol. He and I had been on a TV show one time and came over and he said, “I hear you’ve come to see the speaker.” I said, “Yeah. I just came from seeing the president.” He said, “Give me what you’re asking for and I’ll write a letter to every Democrat in the house and ask them to vote for it.” “I’m gonna vote for it and I’m going to ask you to vote for it because I guarantee your constituents want you to vote for it.” And he did and we didn’t lose a Democrat vote.
(Will) That’s awesome.
(Paul) That’s incredible and really honestly those are incredible stories from Katrina. Crazy to think it’s uh been almost 20 years. Uh, pivoting just a little bit. So, this is a transportation podcast MDOT podcast. Can you kind of talk about the importance of having a strong transportation infrastructure network and maybe the link between transportation network and economic growth and development. Maybe more in the Toyota plant?
(Gov. Barbour) Look. A lot of people think that the key in economic development is the grants that you give out. Well, it’s not. The two things that matter the most quality of the workforce. Nobody’s going to come here unless they think we’ve either got a workforce that knows how to do what they want to do or that can be taught.
The second thing is infrastructure. Toyota they would have never dreamed of coming to Mississippi if we hadn’t been able to give them railroad service that tied into the Memphis-Birmingham uh trucking. You know made four-lane highways. Turned 22 into a four-lane highway. Because the stuff they make’s heavy.
(Will) Sure.
(Gov. Barbour) You know it’s got to be carried around if you can put that on the Tennessee Tombigbee Waterway. On top of that then you got one more huge piece of infrastructure. And people think, I remember Barack Obama talking about shovel-ready projects. That’s not why the economic development helps because of the jobs that last a few weeks, months or a couple of years. What matters is the infrastructure.
(Will) That’s right.
(Gov. Barbour) That you can move things that whether it’s crops or manufactured goods or raw materials. If you cant get them from where they exist to where you’re going to make something out of them then those people are not going to come build a plant in Mississippi. But you look at Toyota, Nissan, Pack Car, GE Aviation
(Will) Continental come over.
(Gov. Barbour) Yeah. Right here right here in Jackson. The you know the whole Coast and from Laurel and Hattiesburg south. A lot of that just wouldn’t be there if it wasn’t for the infrastructure.
(Paul) Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
(Will) That’s interesting. Kind of wish you could snap your fingers sometimes and see you know if X, Y and Z hadn’t happened what it would look like to get that real appreciation for what we have now.
(Gov. Barbour) Well, think about Eisenhower. You remember the first big national highway program was done during the Eisenhower administration in the 50s.
(Will) Okay,
(Gov. Barbour) And some of it was still being built when I was a law student in the seventies. And not just in Mississippi. It wasn’t because we were slow. It just the infrastructure is so big, so powerful, so important that if it takes 20 years, it takes 20 years. Our ports an example we don’t think about enough.
(Will) I remember Chiquita back a few years ago and the hugeness of that. But much like what you’re talking about having that infrastructure in place albeit that was a port uh that was why they were able to come back and why we were able to get that business back.
(Gov. Barbour) Right. Well port is infrastructure.
(Will) That’s right. That’s right.
(Gov. Barbour) SOSA airport.
(Will) That’s right. All good stuff.
(Paul) Vital.
(Will) Pivot on just another topic here for us. Uh, looking back on your time as governor and involved in the state here um any signature you know legislation or policies maybe a reform or something uh that was just the most important to you?
(Gov. Barbour) Tort reform.
(Will) Tort reform?
(Gov. Barbour) When you uh when I ran for governor I never made a speech that I didn’t talk about tort reform. Even if I was talking to high school kids. Because it was having such uh lawsuit abuse was having such a negative impact on our economy but particularly our health care system.
(Paul) Oh yeah.
(Gov. Barbour) We had doctors leaving the state because of the cost of medical liability insurance. And I’m proud to say passed tort reform in the summer of uh in a special session in the summer of 19, 2004. In one year, the number of lawsuits filed against medical people went down 90 percent.
(Will) Oh wow!
(Paul) Wow!
(Gov. Barbour) And in two years the liability premiums for medical health insurance medical liability insurance went down almost seventy percent. And so, it worked is my point.
(Will) Absolutely.
(Gov. Barbour) And that made a lot of difference to a lot of Mississippi families who, I can remember a woman made a TV commercial for me about her husband had been injured in a wreck somewhere up around Indianola or Greenwood. And the only doctor who did emergency neck surgery had quit. He quit doing that. And they had to take him to Memphis uh and he never could walk again
(Will) Oh gosh.
(Gov. Barbour) because of the delay.
(Will) And my wife is a nurse so I know this a little bit firsthand but basically anywhere after college she had some student loans, but she could have basically went anywhere in the state and got those paid for based on the need of being it’s an underserved state as far as the medical field is concerned. So, I can only imagine how much worse that would be had not the reform not happened in the early 2000s. You probably were working on it in the 90s and got it through in 2004. I imagine that did take some time but thank you for those efforts. Absolutely. Paul, what you got , man?
(Paul) Oh yeah. Yeah. So, yes so uh lost let’s talk about a lost art. You’re talking about you know uh working you know with Democrats during Katrina to get you know Mississippi what they needed. But it seems like it’s really bipartisanship is a lost art. There’s not a whole lot of that going on right now. Can you talk about maybe getting back to that or did you see any improvements?
(Gov. Barbour) Paul, when I was governor, I never in eight years, not one day had a Democrat majority in the house.
(Will) That’s right.
(Gov. Barbour) Every day it was a Democratic speaker and all that. And the speaker and I you know we tangled sometimes over tort reform for instance. But he came to the conclusion he said it publicly that when it came to economic development he trusted me. And I never had a veto overridden. And I’m only by the way I only had a majority in the Senate one year.
(Will) Wow!
(Gov. Barbour) Two two senators changed parties there last year. Cindy Hyde Smith is one of them.
(Will) That’s right.
(Gov. Barbour) And look, you have to work at bipartisanship. You have to work at being willing to compromise. And you have to know what’s right to compromise on and what’s not.
(Will) Sure.
(Gov. Barbour) But right now I’ve never seen anything like this. And as we talked about this at the beginning I’ve been doing this for 54 years. You know when I was at the White House Ronald Reagan never had a majority in the house.
(Will) Right.
(Gov. Barbour) But he and Tip O’Neill I used to sometimes get called on to staff meetings with Tip and the president. And uh Chris uh Chris Matthews who you all see on TV
(Will) That’s right. Yeah.
(Gov. Barbour) He usually would staff them for u for Tip. But they were two Irish guys who liked each other that didn’t agree on much policy. But the president would have a glass of wine and the speaker would have a beer and they’d talk.
Well maybe one of Reagan’s biggest pieces of legislation was the 1986 tax bill. Huge change in the tax world. As he announced it on television uh as the as was the rule then I’m sure it is now. The other side got to make a response. So, who made the response for the Democrats? Danny Rostenkowski. Most people wouldn’t know who he is today. He was the democrat chairman of the tax committee of the ways and meetings committee. And what Chairman Rostenkowski say? We’re for tax reform too. We may not agree on everything but we’re going to try to help make sure that we get good tax reform for the American people. Can you imagine that today?
(Will) No.
(Paul) No way.
(Will) Unfortunately no. That’s right.
(Gov. Barbour) But we need more of it because uh the division in the country is very, very severe uh just no question about it.
(Will) Oh yeah. And having that ability that again as folks you’ve mentioned uh Senator Cochran you know one I don’t think I’ve ever him say a cross word about anyone but knew how to be bipartisan and work for the betterment of everybody.
(Gov. Barbour) You know The Washington Post called Senator Cochran “the quiet persuader.”
(Will) That’s right.
(Paul) Oh yeah.
(Will) That’s the best term I think you could think of. Real quick. I know Brad White’s got a picture hanging up upstairs that they got painted of Senator Cochran. And that conversation about what the pose was or however the painter uh how he was going to do it and he decided to paint Cochran leaning over as if he was listening. Because that’s what he was known for being such a good listener.
(Gov. Barbour) He was.
(Will) And I can see that you know in his face in that image.
Touching back on some of these relationships you just mentioned oh Brad White. So, he was your party chairman during time
(Gov. Barbour) When I was governor. He was I could remember when he was a county chairman. I can remember when look right right when the commissioner’s got a chance to hire him and did very, very smart. He understands government. He understands bipartisanship.
(Paul) Very much.
(Gov. Barbour) And he’s one of those guys who gets the toothpaste out of the tube.
(Will) That’s right. He’s done a jam up job for us that is very sure.
(Paul) Oh for sure. For sure.
(Will) Uh kind of wrapping to the last bit here a little out of the box question for you but one we like to ask all our viewers. I know you spent a lot of time running the roads and as we we talked about on the way in maybe sometimes you got to pick up a quick meal. Is there anywhere in the state that anytime you’re passing through, you got a minute man, we’ve got to go stop and get a bite to eat right here. Do you have a favorite or maybe one or two spots?
(Gov. Barbour) Well, look. Mississippi’s got great food in a lot of different places from Mary Mahoney’s
(Will) There we go.
(Gov. Barbour) And I I still get tickled going in and listening to Bobby Mahoney’s jokes which I’ve heard every one of at least 20 times.
(Will) Also similar to our director Brad.
(Gov. Barbour) Weidman’s in Meridian wonderful, wonderful old family restaurant.
(Will) Very much so.
(Gov. Barbour) And I’ll tell you a restaurant here in town that I think is mighty good is Caet.
(Will) Oh yeah. Oh absolutely.
(Gov. Barbour) But uh you, you, you can anywhere in Mississippi, and you can find a really good place to eat.
(Will) Absolutely right.
(Gov. Barbour) You can even get a drink here.
(Will) Like every now and then
(Paul) That is true every once in a while. Well, we’ll get you out of here but one more thing uh you know, you mentioned a little bit, but what are you kind of up to these days, you know jobwise and maybe family and everything?
(Gov. Barbour) Well, when I left The White House as I say, I started a lobbying firm, and I stepped down when I became party chairman. I just didn’t think it was right for somebody to be wondering was I arguing for my client or arguing for my party. So, I stepped down for four years and went back. They asked me to come back. And then I got elected Governor for eight years. And they asked me to come back ten years ago and so I did.
I’ll be 75 next month and retirement does not interest me. I’m one of those that thinks when you retire you die. And uh, so, I’m still working hard and doing a lot of things for a lot of different clients and uh wouldn’t give anything for it. I’m wonderfully blessed. My father died when he was 36. So, I understand my blessings.
(Will) That’s right. Yeah.
(Paul) No doubt. Well, Governor Barbour, we appreciate your service, and we appreciate you on. Uh the stories, anecdotes certainly lived up to the hype so, we really appreciate it.
(Gov. Barbour) Thank you, Paul.
(Paul) Absolutely. So, we’re gonna do a little bit of sell promotion before we get out of here. So, just wanted to mention uh last week uh The Extra Mile podcast won uh the audio production category at the AASHTO TransComm Skills Competition. So, that’s a professional organization where uh that uh all members of the the d-o-t communications professionals are a member of. So, anyway just wanted to kind of tease that and uh we’ll pat ourselves on the back.
(Will) That’s right.
(Gov. Barbour) Congratulations.
(Will) Thank you.
(Paul) Thank you so much, Governor. So, we’ll go ahead and wrap things up. Want to thank Governor Barbour again. And thank our listeners again for tuning in to The Extra Mile podcast. We also want to thank our producer Katey Hornsby, our editor Drew Hall. Remember you can listen and watch each episode by visiting GoMDOT.com/TheExtraMile. Be sure to follow us on Facebook and Twitter. The handle is @MississippiDOT. And as always remember to drive smart out there on Mississippi highways.