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In this podcast, we talk to some of the greatest founders and leaders about their journey to where they are as well as discuss their companies and many other subjects depending on the guest.
We are aiming to create meaningful content that everyone can get value from. We hope you enjoy 😁
you're listening to the Far Side
with founders and Leaders Podcast
the podcast that gives you a behind the scenes look
of some of the world's most
amazing founders and leaders
looking at their journeys
and how they got to where they are today
hello everyone
and welcome to this latest edition of the fireside
with founders and leaders podcast
today I am delighted to be joined by James Ferguson
aka Fergo
who has worked at companies as a design leader
companies including Skyscanner
whereby and he's now currently VP of design at OVO
the energy company
so we have a really great conversation
all about his leadership tips
things that people can be doing to help themselves
to try and find new work
in this new world that we're working in
especially with AI being so prominent
looking at what he's been doing
to level up in terms of being AI first
and driven by the new products that are out there
that can really help people to do their jobs
and really help to
elevate designers in the world that we live in
so we talk about all about that
some really great tips and hints
loads and loads of other juicy stuff
so
I'm just gonna let you get straight into it and enjoy
hello Fergo welcome to the podcast hi
thanks for having me
thanks for coming in all the way from sunny Brighton
yes I mean
it is actually a little bit it's sunny at the moment
I mean
given the weather we've had the start of this year
so uh yeah
it's dry at least so yeah
nice to be here happy days
well yeah
really really good to meet you yeah
so finally so we've been talking for a little while now
yeah um
we've got some interesting topics
related to the design industry
leadership in the design industry
something that's pretty close to
to your heart and your career as people will find out
but so let's let's talk into that
so tell us a bit more about sort of you your career
how you got to where you are today and
and how it all started yeah
sure so yeah
I'm Virgo um
I'm currently leading design at OVO Energy um
and I spent like the last 20 years or so um
in various kind of design leadership roles um
from kind of b to B sass through to kind of travel um
and a bunch of kind of other industries in there
and I think for me like
the one constant is that I've kind of
always joined companies and teams at
different levels of inflection points
whether that's a big technology shift
whether that's a kind of cost transformation or
or kind of otherwise
and I think that's probably one of the things that
has stuck with me throughout my career
is that that kind of transformation angle um
and that that kind of leading through shifts um
whether that was back in the day
around the shift to mobile
yeah um
or at the moment like the shift into AI
which I'm no doubt
will end up talking more about as well so um yeah
that's something that I guess is
is always gonna stay with me
there's been lots of shifts right over the years
so you talked about
so the shift to mobile was probably the
I say the original one actually
the shift to just online yeah
exactly moving from print
yeah well
my first job was at a um
a design agency where we were going through that shift
like I joined in the digital space
but many people were trans
transitioning from print into
into digital at the time where flash was the cool thing
yeah flash for all the kids that don't know
doesn't exist anymore but it
it used to be thing it did
it did I saw a post literally yesterday about
about flash and like oh
like I love that it did have a place for me
it was good it was good
although it used to crash quite a lot
oh yeah I can't remember
yeah so lots of frustrations of why isn't this working
yeah it should be exactly
there we go uh
so lots of transition so
so internet mobile
what other things have you seen sort of
you're transitioning you mentioned obviously AI
which we'll get into of course
but sure I mean even
even that shift into kind of more like
specialist design roles and then I guess
as we're seeing kind of things
almost kind of come back together as well
that we kind of seem to split
from having a designer that did absolutely everything
into individual roles for things
and specialisms and now we're seeing
I guess the rise of the generalist again
I'm coming back and I think again
the AI piece is only amplifying some of that
um I think for me
the other kind of shifts has been around like
ways of working um
like into your kind of cross functional teams
like the kind of
the idea of this kind of squad and tribe model
that kind of um
really I guess kind of um
came from that kind of Spotify type way of working um
is now the standard but I mean
if we think back wasn't the way
we had centralized teams
and massive handoff between disciplines
so um
yeah I guess
lots of different types of shifts from
tooling through to
kind of more cultural pieces through
to kind of how we work with each other
so yeah massive nice
there's been lots of changes
you say that in terms of the way people work
I think
I don't remember where I saw it or who I spoke to
but you talked about the Spotify way of working
and they started with that
but by the time everyone I think adopted it
oh yeah
they were no longer working in the Spotify way
with no irony it's still called that
isn't it it's still a fair to say that
and you know
it's basically
what was two blog posts and a couple of videos
yeah and I still remember
like
the hand drawn videos that they used as part of it
and it's like well yeah
everyone just believe that as gospel
and I think everyone's been on their own journey of
what does that actually mean yeah
what does this mean for our business
and like how do you adapt it
and yeah they're
they're not exactly following that to a t anymore
either no
I don't think so I think they've
they long they've moved on as as people do
and that's the thing about everything that we do right
generally without being too philosophical
like people move on things move on yeah
like things progress
depending on which side of the fence you sit on
you either see it as progress
or you see it as something as decline yeah um
I think most of the time it's it's progress yeah
for for most people but the design industry
I think from the things I've seen
there's lots of noise around um
it being in decline
mm hmm from people I don't necessarily see that myself
I'm
maybe because I'm a half glass half full type person
and I see the
the progress and just the evolution rather than OK
this is in the decline
this is things are just changing right
we've moved as you say
from having disperse teams
where you've got teams of product ah
product designers there there you go
I'm still still in in the the newer mode of thinking
but now we're talking product designers
people who are more well rounded and all rounders
whereas before it was very siloed UX research UI
they were different things
and like there was a time where
if I spoke to someone as a potential customer of
of mine and they said oh
I want someone to do UX UI
I'd say absolutely not you need two people yeah
now I'm saying actually yeah
we can find you someone
you just gotta find out where the balance is
in terms of what you want yes
someone to to do ultimately
but what's what's your opinion on
sort of how things have gone in the design industry
over the last last couple of years
I mean
I think for me I'm I'm actually quite energized by the
the movement right now I think it's an incredible uh
exciting time for
for people that just love making product
and I think that's a bit that we may be lost
along the way is that um
for those that truly love building great products
there's never a better time to be in because um
the accessibility to be able to build
stuff is so much more readily available
than it's than it's ever been
so yeah
I think that to me is a bit that's really exciting
as a real kind of maker at heart
it's like actually I can actually create what I'm
I have in my head now um
and that is super powerful
I think um
but I think if we're if we're realistic
like the design
industry's
always been in some sort of existential crisis
like I don't think I've ever
I don't think there's ever been a time where like
designs like yeah cool
like we're all sorry we're at the top
yeah we were engineers
what are they needed for exactly
you know so like
I think you know
there is an element of cool yes
this there is a
I think what is challenging for folks at the moment is
is the rate of change and
and the the speed of which things are moving because
you know I sometimes feel that as well
like I said I'm loving this
I'm I feel like I'm trying to read and consume
and try every new tool
and every new way of working out there
it's exhausting as well um
and I think like people are
are feeling that um
as well so I think part of it is around well
how do you stay enough up to date so that you're not
you know you don't become irrelevant
but also like
how do you give yourself a little bit of a break
around some of this as well because um
there is just so much out there
um yeah
and why do you think then
that designers tend to feel undervalued
I think because in some organizations it's seen as a
a a bit of a kind of cherry on top yeah
um like it's
it's not like fundamentally about solving problems um
and I think that's what design is to me
and I think for a lot of people that got into design
is because you wanna solve actual problems
and it's creative thinking yeah
and I think for a lot of people it
that has that often gets
done in other parts of the organization
and people are handed finished solutions
not problems and I think that's a bit that really
I think people struggle with um
for sure so yeah
I think there's probably something around that
around like how are people actually
able to show up and do what they feel is their job
so that's a misunderstanding and misalignment between
business leaders or CEO
whoever it might be to say
this is what we actually need
versus what people in design can actually do
yeah totally
and I think like
design for me is probably one of the few rules
I'm not really thought about any other rules
so maybe the only rule
is where you need to fight to do your job
yeah um
and I think that's really interesting
why is that I don't know
because like
when you've got organizations that are like yeah
we need to find the best designers
and you'll see this as well in your line of work
like all the effort that goes into that
and you find the best you bring them in
and you've not created the environment
for them to succeed you're like well
what a waste of everyone's time and money yeah
um it's money like it's just absolutely not so um
yeah like it's it's such a crazy thing of like yeah
we need this and we need that
but then we don't enable them to actually kind of
deliver on that as well so like
I think that's a big part for us
as design leaders as well
is to lean into that
and create the right environment for
for people to succeed
and you've probably seen like the good
the bad the ugly and organizations as a design leader
you've probably seen both sides of that right
places that are set up to give you success
but also places that are not
set up um
to give you success yeah
essentially set up to fail
so how as potentially a design leader can
can you go and try and engineer the
the success side of things so that
you know you're putting things in the right place
giving people the opportunity to go and do their job
so it's not such a constant battle yeah
what can we do well
I mean
I think a great example for me when I joined Oval
it's it's fair to say that
it was a big transformation project
the team had gone without much love for
for a bit of time no fault to anyone in particular
but that's the reality of a I
I joined with the mandate from my boss at the time
which was can you fix design yeah
um well
okay that that's
that's a brief isn't it go yeah
I was like yeah
I could do that no problem yeah
to solve exactly fix good
um so yeah
but like like what
unpack that what does that even mean yeah
um and I think for me
there was there was
it was multiple different levels
like I think initially the gut was like
we need to get the team you know
we need to sort
the kind of performance part of the team
we need to be able to kind of
deliver on what we're doing
but actually we also needed to
I need to spend quite a bit of
my time at the other side of things
trying to connect what design can deliver against the
the business strategy and how does we
how do we translate what we're doing against that
and so like a lot of what I do
and even still is around that translation piece
and like
how do we connect this back to what the business
cares about because um
for us
a big thing is around cost to serve around complaints
around you know customer satisfaction um
those are the things that the business are measuring um
and if we are sitting here in a design team
banging on about the usability here
or the heuristic thing here or whatever else
it's like yes
that's important but how does it ladder up
because if we don't show how it ladders
then it just becomes again
another kind of design piece that
that doesn't actually um
that no one really cares about if we're honest yeah um
we care about it
it is important but if we can't tell why
what's the value
then what's the value in the measurement
what are the metrics rather than
I think design is often measured on outputs
and like screens flows
journeys things like that yeah
but actually you should be thinking
bigger picture of how does it affect the business
the business metrics
the business outputs that then generate revenue
that make it easier for the customer to go in and
purchase whatever they're purchasing
or yeah go through the
the journey that they're going on uh
I think quite often um
when you ask people
what's design accountable for in a business
no one can answer that yeah um
which is very telling um
like what is product accountable for
oh well
there's these KPIs there's these metrics
there's the the PNL
there's whatever
like totally the business person looks after this
or engineering responsible for this security
like you can you can go through it very easily
what is design actually accountable for
people stumble
what do you think design is accountable for
I mean for me
it's about the overall quality of the experience yup
um like it's
can the customer do the job
and does this help us translate what we're doing into a
a a business outcome
yeah we're trying to deliver yeah
fundamentally um
and I think for me
like we all probably play a part in that um
but but design can really
I think really can help with um
shifting shifting that yeah
it definitely can turn the needle on yeah
we talked about like tools and things that you're using
now with the
the day and age of being able to build things
and do things quickly
as well
you can take things from your mind and put them onto a
I was gonna say a piece of paper there
you can put them onto a piece of paper
but yeah onto a screen more realistically
these days yeah
um what tools are you using
what are the must haves these days
I think we're
leaning heavily into the AI prototyping space
yup um
so we've been on a journey um
it started off with kind of Figma make
because it was very accessible to the team
given it was you know
people use Figma yup thing
I think like a lot of people um
we've had hit and miss experiences
um more recently a bit more hit than miss
but um
we've kind of hit the limitations I think around that
um
and then the next natural piece for us was around like
how do we use cursor and like
we've seen cursor being adopted
by many design teams in the industry
as this kind of intermediary
intermediary between like design and code
and that kind of prompting environment
and that kind of safe space around that felt like e
e next kind of step for us
and we're very much in the kind of piloting of that
um I think at the same time cloud code
uh and more kind of like uh
terminal based tools
is exactly kind of where we're leaning into
and I think that's probably where um
the future is for us um
to be honest so
um yeah
we're getting much closer to to the metal around like
um around what we're creating nice
and if we
if we fast forward maybe like five years from now
what things do
you think designers are doing day to day now
that they won't be doing in five years
and where is it going big question
so yeah big
big question
I think when you
you think about like all the manual tasks that
that folks are doing right now
whether that's um
you know synthesis of research or whether that is um
like hand cranking all the copy for things
or hand cranking every single screen or detail
I think all of that type of stuff
will be significantly reduced
and I think more importantly
what they will be doing I guess
rather than maybe what they won't be doing is
is probably thinking more like a
a product person a builder
and I think that it comes back to this piece
around judgement and taste
being key skills um
for me when I'm hiring designers
like one of the the
the biggest skills
or the things that I've always looked for is that
that curiosity
and that kind of ability to explore a problem properly
I think they'll be doing that
way more than they'll be doing today
because they'll have the time and the space to do that
and but I think there also needs to be that
that shift in that mindset as well for some people that
that maybe think that design is screens
um because actually
like we're seeing a lot more
like non screen based interfaces
like voice and all the rest of it continues
to be kind of on their eyes so um
how are we thinking more about the problem space
that's that's where I expect people to be spending
more of the time it's really interesting
because you talk about like
screening people as designers
for people who are solving problems right
I think if I and again completely made up stats here
but if I probably did a
an overview of all of our customers and clients
and the things that they ask for across design
product software engineering
the three core pillars of
of our service that we offer and said to them
what are the main things that you look for in
good slash great people in inserts discipline yeah
they all say problem solvers
whether that's engineers product managers or designers
yeah so
do you think it's fair to say that
that's really what we need to be looking for
when we're looking for great people
yeah in our organizations
we need to test for people who are problem solvers
and then how do we do that
how do you test for someone who's a problem solver
how do you find out that curiosity for me
I think you don't always see that
through your traditional portfolio reviews
and because I think in a world now
anyone can create if you super slick portfolio um
you can run your stuff through chat
GPT
or any other tool and spit out a formula type thing
and it's like it's very and it feels formulaic um
I think you really need to dig into like
what were the challenges um
around this like for me
like when you
when you're interviewing a designer or anyone
I'm less interested in in like
the little bits that you did
and how you followed that process
I wanna know about the stories behind it
cause that's the interesting bit
because nothing was ever super successful
but we all talk about these like examples
like it was like yeah
we did this
we did this and we got this and it was all perfect
it was all perfect it was easy
um you know
cool bullshit on it exactly
that is not the case like
you know there was this person that you disagreed with
you fell out with this person like you
you struggle to get buy in for this like yeah
these are the things that we wanna hear about um
and like
these are the bits that are really unique to you
and what you bring to it so I think like
focusing on those types of conversations um
and teasing that out as opposed to like cool
you follow this this strict process like
cause nobody does yeah
um yeah
I think someone once said to me
the difference between someone who's a senior and
not a senior yeah
person in design
it was we're actually talking about design
but it could be could be related to anything
is someone
who's been through those challenges and those problems
and they can articulate
this was the challenge and this is how we solved it
so they basically they've been to battle yeah
already yeah
they know they know how to handle certain situations
whereas someone who
is a bit more green in the industry yeah
they just won't have been to battle
and they won't have known how to solve those problems
they can probably do it
but they won't have done it before
and I think that's a bit that
that separates the good from the great there as well
like and the
you know the more the more experienced you are
the more you've probably faced these things and the
and the level of complexity
and the problems that you've had to overcome yeah
are only bigger yeah as well so um
I mean I think back to some of the things that
that maybe I'm solving at the moment um
the approach I'm taking is not that different to
maybe how I would have done it
as a more
kind of junior designer but I think the
the learning across there is
has been the key thing to build on that
to be able to solve some of those um
some of those problems so
why do you think then in the industry as it is today
that there's
there's a an issue and it's not a massive issue
but there is an issue with
with ageism whereas you know
some more so senior designers
they've got experience they've been battle Hardy um
they've gone through lots of lots of different things
but they're being shelved because they're older
or whatever it is
I don't know why what's what's your opinion on that
yeah I mean
I think looking at it
I probably can't point to that many
older people that are in the design profession
and that are not in senior leadership roles and
and I think when you look at that you
it's interesting why I think from a lot of peers and
and folks that that I'm speaking with
I think there's a lot of people that are
are tired and are like actually
I'm not willing to kind of
go through this for much longer yeah
or almost like taking themselves out of this world
I've seen that I've seen plenty of that actually
people who I've worked with for
for years they've suddenly gone
I don't know what I'm just gonna do something else yeah
totally I
I guess I'm seeing a lot of that um
but yeah in terms of when it comes to um
like designers and
and thinking about the the hiring piece
I guess yeah I
I generally
I haven't really given that a huge amount of thought
as to as to why those folks are um
maybe not being hired as much um
I think when you look at right now
like we're all I'm seeing quite a
big gap in hiring more juniors
and people fresh out of college
and that type of thing yeah
and I think it's always been a problem as well
I think it has
and I almost think that right now and you know
I face this challenge personally
but I think right now
if you can go and hire a bunch of grads
that are kind of super green
but super enthusiastic
and are growing up with all these new tools
and ways of working and chances are
you're going to be able to turn
around some pretty awesome things
and you'll be able to teach a bunch of other things
and I think maybe the slightly older side of things
like how are you keeping up to date
and how are you keeping yourself relevant
because
that design process and those tools that you used
are moving and you need to move with it
and I think there is a bit of a resistance there
not just from older folks by any means
but but generally like
how do you keep yourself relevant
in this ever changing world
is that resistance to change
is it yeah
because I speak to people
and sometimes they're still sort of stuck
using tools like XD which is a great tool
don't get me wrong
XD has its purpose but good for forms
if you're purely yeah exactly
if you're purely wedded on that and saying
that's the be all and end all
Figma's rubbish it's not a proper prototyping tool
you're not prepared to change
and that's probably where I see that sort of gap here
and then sometimes it's perceived as ageism
which I think is sometimes slightly misguided
because it's not the fact that they're older
it's just the fact that they're not prepared to change
yeah their ways
there are plenty of like older people that I know uh
mostly contractors actually
if they're still practitioners um
but they keep up to date with
with different tools
they're trying different things with AI and yeah
you know shock
they they keep themselves in
in contracts yeah
and I think that's a bit
especially with the AI kind of shift as well
is that it is quite divisive
um as well
and definitely
there are people that are not leaning into that space
that I have no doubt that in 2
3 years maybe even less than that will be unemployable
um because they won't have the skills
that businesses are looking for um
so like that's a real worry
and that's something that I always think about
about my team around how do we keep our teams relevant
um and like
how can we bring people on that journey
and it's not just a case of well
use AI like why should we use it
what should we be doing what does good look like
um but that is a real worry that I sit with around how
how how
is this team
and people around us going to be employable
in the future
in a world that is changing every single day
do you think AI gives design an advantage
I think so I think it enables people to create
stuff that they've never been able to create before um
a lot of the blockers to
to things has been around maybe um
the the engineering or the coding side of stuff
that's now fully accessible like
like everyone I'm vibe coding every
every idea I have
whether I should or not is another story yeah
um but I but
but that's that's been a real um
liberating experience of like
I have this idea I can now create it
like it's not gonna sit in a Figma file
I can create something and ship it to the App Store
or put it on a website and
and get people using it like that's really exciting
um
uh and I think for a lot of people like that
that level of
of accessibility to these ways of working is
is huge um
so yeah I think that's
that's a real interesting piece for me
I'm in there and you've done a fair bit of work around
building design systems and traditionally
design systems have been created so that they can
things can be easily reused and you've got a structure
um and a framework for
for the rest of the business and team to
to work from but AI can change some of that
can't it cause it can be a bit more
dynamic in terms of the approach
so how does how does that change things do you think
so for me design systems they were kind of born out of
largely designers wanting consistency yeah
and wanting control around how things are delivered um
I was there as a designer wanting the same thing yeah
that's that's kind of where where it came from
but I think if you look at it
like it is a tool that really helps accelerate
teams to deliver things and how do you get that idea
how do you go from idea to delivery much quicker
um
so for me it's about efficiency and it's a cost saving
um piece um
because it enables people to focus on the real problems
um than than anything and I think again
thinking about AI like like
a big part of what inspires me is around
how do you go from that idea to validation yeah
whether it is a good idea or a bad idea
but how do you get the signals
and I think a little bit like design systems
that the AI pieces enabling that
so like
what I've kind of been spending a lot of time on
right now is like
how do you how do you teach AI or
or how do you enable AI
to be able to use the design system
how can it be a bit more of a co pilot
um with you as well
and that like how do you work with AI
yup to
to realize these ideas and you want to do it in a way
that's consistent with brand
that's consistent with the rest of the experience I'm
and all the rest of it
you want all that good consistency levels there
I'm in the quality I'm
but we're almost creating design systems for AI
like on top of design systems like yeah
right now the experience that I've had is that
we've got so many different markdown files
that it's just full of rules to tell the
to tell AI how to interpret the design system right
it seems super inefficient and
but it's where we are and we're going through that
and who knows like in a few months
years whatever
it might look very different
I'm sure it will I hope it does yeah
we cannot just live on these markdown files
like right now like it's nuts um
but like again
we're we're
it's a huge step forward to
to where we were like
even like six months ago type thing as well so um
we're probably achieving about
I don't know 80% levels of consistency
um with AI and our design system
um right now
which is it's pretty decent
like there's some designers that don't achieve that
so like you know
it's pretty it's pretty good sufficient
yeah right
and if you were starting from scratch tomorrow
today whenever uh
building a design system again
knowing what you know now about sort of AI
and the evolution that's coming at a rapid
rapid pace
where would you start like
what would you what would you start by doing
I mean I think I'd probably start with a
bunch of basic rules around the foundational pieces um
like your your token level essentially yeah
um I'd start
I'd start at that level um
and equally what can you leverage off the shelf
um
whether that's frameworks or things like that as well
um like classic 1 right now of um
like Shad C N and using tailwind are
are the ones that are you know
really kind of um
delivering across the board
so how how would you plug into this
because you probably don't need to create it
from scratch yeah
um as much as the
the designer or the maker in me is like
oh it'd be great to start from scratch
like of course it would be yeah
but again how do you move quickly
why are you doing this um
you're doing it to be able to take away
some of that pain that you've already got
so how can you get to that quicker
and so yeah
I'll be leveraging stuff that's
that's off the shelf and
and focusing on that token level piece to
to enable enough consistency or enough delivery
and I guess what is enough to you
and to someone else might
might vary but um yeah
if I was starting from scratch
that's probably how I would approach it
interesting cause you said the maker in you
sort of would probably want to start yeah
from scratch and I think actually
most designers that I know would be more excited about
a if I was telling them about a project of
we're building a design system from scratch
we're doing this like completely greenfield
it's exciting project to get involved in
than something where we're
taking something off the shelf
they probably be more excited by the
the former as in the building from scratch
so yeah how do
how do we balance things out
so that people are still engaged in the work
they're doing
but also using the efficiencies that are available
yeah I mean
I think it also goes back to like
the signature experiences
um like what makes your experience uniquely yours
um why does it
why does it feel like your brand
your product that type of thing
so where where do you go deep
because otherwise
everything will just look exactly the same
um and you see that from in any AI species right now
you just generate anything and it's just
it's all bland
and I think that's where it looks the same
it does it looks the same
because also it's trained in all the same stuff
of course it does yeah yeah
um it's a pattern matching game
and like you're just gonna end up with the same stuff
so like
I think that's where the role of design is again
needed even more than ever
that level of taste and craft
and because where are you gonna sweat the details
what is gonna make something unique
and and how do you solve that in a really interesting
creative way and like
these are
these are things that you're not gonna get out of AI
yeah at this point in time
but who knows who knows
but I think that that to me is like the
the where like
we're seeing designers really succeed as well
those that have that high level of taste and craft and
and and thinking
to be able to challenge what is essentially AI slop
that comes out a lot of the time yeah
and that that's most of you know
the things that we see is yeah
say AI slop
I think that's a that's a nice way to put it
it is it's defined yeah
but but exactly
but I mean that it's so easy though
and in a world where anyone can make anything
it's like it really comes back to that
should you like just because you can
should you well no
definitely not yeah
I think um
and I think that's the thing like
I was joking with a friend the other day about like
some app stuff that I've been doing
and they were like
The App Store's just gonna get flooded with
with rubbish I'm like thanks
but thanks for that appreciate it exactly yeah
but it's true though true
but but true um
and like
even like how do you think about like how is Apple
Android whoever
thinking about how to maintain that quality bar
when anyone can create anything
um because you are just gonna end up with stuff um
there it's so easy
I even I who am traditionally not very tech savvy
I'm more of a turn it off off and on yeah
type guy
but used lovable for the first time the other day
and built a couple of websites in half a day yeah
it's not hard they're not great websites
bear in mind but they're they're good enough yeah
uh I think I probably paid someone
a couple of thousand pounds to build them yeah
12 months ago yeah but
but what
what takes something from good enough to great
yeah and I think that's the people
that's where you need the design part
and I think that's where companies that invest in that
will see that and you'll see that kind of huge leap
because everything else will probably look
feel work roughly the same or
or OK and it might be OK
and it might be fine for that product or company
to be like that
but the real differentiator I think will be those that
that really invest in that and do something a bit
different yeah
nice and
and you mentioned earlier
about designers being able to become almost more
more product LED more product management
sort of focused in their approach yeah
I think that that's absolutely spot on
from the things I see
and I think this is a real opportunity for designers to
uh not sink into the shadows
but to come in step into the limelight a bit
because you can now the
the lines have always been slightly blurred
between product and design
but I think they're even more blurred now
and you see the best the best product managers
becoming more design and engineering focused
and then the best designers becoming more design and
yeah sorry
product and an engineering focused by
by
typing in prompts to create code and things like that
and then the best engineers will try and
become a bit more product and yeah
design focused so I mean
there's a the classic memes
doing the rounds right now of the Spider Man scene
but they're all pointing at each other like
and it's like we don't need you
you don't need you don't like and it's just like
you know but it's it I've missed that one yeah
oh I've been go go check it out but yeah
like it's yeah
they're all just pointing at each other like yeah
product doesn't need design
design doesn't need engineering
engineering doesn't need product like
do we need anyone anymore
no not just let AI AI do it all exactly take over um
but I think for me it's about like
how can we lead into these overlaps
because that's super exciting
and I think when you start seeing teams get smaller
as well
like that's a real trend I'm seeing as well
that because you can work much tighter together
and you can achieve so much more
like a product manager
designer and engineer working super close
now I'm not saying that
that's the ratio that will be there forever
but but certainly
these smaller kind of
teams
can deliver way more than they ever used to be able to
and so that's also I think
quite a shift that is that's coming or is
is happening right now definitely
and it's
it's a it's an opportunity for people to step up
and if they are truly problem solvers yeah
you got problem
solvers in all of those three disciplines
but if the designers that are there
are proper problem solvers
they can then go and get something shipped
really quickly they don't as you say
they don't have to wait for you know
the
the ticket the Giro ticket to be be read by someone in
in engineering which might take two weeks
they can go to a your customer
even if there's no product person in between and say
is this what you're talking about yeah
great this does that does that make sense
does that work for you totally yeah
it does I think that's where
where we're really leaning into that prototype
in space for that reason
like how can we test this idea
and how can we make it believable
rather than a set of like flat
clickable prototypes that
you know if we're honest
are are never really felt properly
like that's part of the problem
isn't it yeah
with design
is that when you take a flat clickable prototype to
to someone who's not a designer
they look at it and they go
yeah I don't get it yeah
oh they touch they touch
they touch the screen and it doesn't work
and you get the the blue flashy boxes
cause that's where you're supposed to click yeah
they feel stupid cause they didn't know that
but yeah how would they have known it
cause they didn't see it and it's just like
the whole thing is just so artificial
like I think for me it's like
how do you can get things in front
real things in front of people to get that feedback
much quicker still look like they should yeah
actually be out there live in the market
totally yeah
and then the the other bit on top of that is that
how can you pull in real data as well
because yeah OK
you know we joke slightly about the kind of
the act you're kind of thing
but like you know
being able to pull in real data into these prototypes
and make it feel a bit more real as well
is also a kind of big step forward
and I guess like
thinking back to some of the kind of act
your days and stuff like that
is that you were
some of those things you were able to do and yeah
kind of lost a little bit
because we've got very static ways of
of working now
and just linking screens and objects together yeah yeah
how do you so thinking of that
that sort of um
comment you made there
of getting real data into the platforms
cause there I'm sure there are some sort of privacy um
so regs that
that would restrict the ability to do some of that yeah
that sort of thing
which is why most times people use dummy data
so it doesn't get
lost in some sort of data leak or anything like that
but how
how can we try and circumnavigate that do you think
I mean I think it's
there's probably still an element of using dummy data
like do you need to use like live customer information
probably not and you probably shouldn't yeah
just to be clear yeah
ha ha um
but actually like what does that data set look like
it's not about having perfect data
because actually
there'll be loads of gaps in the actual systems
like
if I think about some of the challenges we got over
right now maybe we're missing a postcode
maybe we're
missing information about this type of meter
or maybe we're missing this type of information here
like that to me is if
if you've got data that simulates those
those experiences all the edge cases
that's real data
as opposed to you've designed for the happy path again
and you've got the
the perfect set of data because actually that's
that's not the case when people are
are calling us or using their app or whatever else
like things go wrong
because there's a lack of data and things
and I think you can simulate a lot of that now
more easy more easier than you could before yeah
absolutely and
and you talked a bit about um
when you're hiring for for designers
looking for people who are problem solvers
going beyond the portfolio um
looking for someone who can tell the story
what are the things that ultimately become a
a straight no for you if you're
if you're going out and hiring in the market
yeah when you're looking at portfolios
or when you're speaking to people
depending on so where where you get to in the process
like what are the things that you go
that's an absolute no no go yeah
you're not coming to be part of my team um
I'd say visual craft right now they don't have a a
a decent level of of visual craft
and I think
we've done ourselves a disfavor in the industry over
over the years because we've often referred to um
design being this kind of
visual layer on top of everything else
and I kind of talked a little bit about that before
but honestly I think
we need designers to be able to create
good looking things as well as solving problems
like it's it's both
and I think we've lost that along the way
and I think things like a lot of the UX bootcamps and
like the over hiring that we did through Covid and all
all these kind of things like has taken away from like
we need to create some beautiful
looking and working things
yeah and like nice things sell and no one
I'll use the example of
no one really goes out intentionally
and buys an ugly jumper yeah
you know it happens
um but
but no one goes out with that intent
um and like
you know nice things sell and you see that
um so that's subjective though
like nice things because
you know beauty is in the eye of the beholder
I think is the the phrase
so one person
the ugly jumper right yeah
someone actually looks at the jumper and goes
I love the jumper it's great
another person goes hmm
it's not for me yeah
so um
how do you how do you get past that subjectivity
in the visual craft of design
yeah I mean
I think there's always a level of subjectivity in there
I think you just need to acknowledge that okay
um as well
like I like
you know what I like and what someone else is like is
is gonna be different um
but there are some real kind of basic
kind of level and parts of design
like your kind of core like gestalt principles
if you like um
that you know your your layout your rhythm your spacing
your typography
all the things that just make something
feel well crafted yeah
and I think individually
is a customer gonna notice that
probably not but all of these things add up and the
when things just start to feel a bit off
that's when the trust levels go yeah
and
or when people feel that this doesn't feel quite right
like and I think it goes back to that piece around
what is those signature experiences as well um
like when you look at some of the
you know the best design LED companies like the
the classic kind of you know apple for example
yup like what makes that feel like apple
um like
um one of the things is like
this
smallest detail around how they treat border radius
yeah yeah
like it's such a tiny detail
but if that was slightly off and you know
you see that in the latest version of Mac OS
and those border radiuses are wild
and I do wonder like how the hell did that get through
um but like
you know like those details matter yeah
and I think for me like when you're hiring designers
you want someone that really cares
and cares about the detail when
and sweats the detail when no one's looking
so like
even if that's just how they organize their Figma file
or how they put a presentation together
like what's the level of care that they bring
because if they're not bringing that care to
to those levels of artifacts
then how is that actually gonna show up in an interface
or something you're shipping to a customer
and how do you test for that
without having a portfolio that details
sort of everything um
going through this was the process
this is what happened this is what went wrong
measurable outcomes whatever it might be
is there a way to
to test that level of detail with someone
I mean I think you see it in um
the first interaction like yeah
so you see like I don't know
potentially it's someone's CV that comes through yeah
like can they lay out their CV
does it look like a considered piece of work
cause that's the first impression
and what's your choice of words as well
cause words are as much design as
as as the pixels
so how are you thinking about constructing things
and again in a world where you've got AI
to help you with some of this
that maybe wasn't a core skill set
there's almost no excuse yeah
and so how are you communicating and spelling
yeah spelling
simple stuff real simple things
formatting like yeah
all of that type of thing
like that really matters and that's a first impression
that I think a lot of people don't think about
no and they'll fire over an unformatted word DOC
and hope for the best and like
they're LinkedIn my LinkedIn profile
but the downloaded PDF version yeah
which I get sometimes I'm like
that's not a CV yeah
just so you know no
or the
the LinkedIn doesn't match the CV and you're like OK
so you're not telling the story here
so like
I think there's a bunch of first impressions where
where you've not really thought about how you're
how you're landing things
yeah OK
so people need to really make sure
they're looking out for those things
yeah to showing that
cause everyone says attention to detail
one of the things and that always makes me chuckle
when you say attention to detail
and you're like by the way
you've spelt the wrong yeah exactly yeah
and again there's no excuse yeah
um and I say this and I'm sure people watching this
but I will have a look at your LinkedIn
I need to have a look at that
yeah yeah
yeah probably yeah
yeah don't look at mine
yeah yeah
don't look at mine I'm just judging everyone else
yeah that's fine
I just don't like that um
but I think like there is almost no excuse
for these types of things right now
um
as well with the tooling that we've got available to us
and we've had spell check for long enough that like
I think we're fine
although sometimes there may be the element of with
with all the tooling that's available to us
throwing in the odd spelling mistake
just to make it seem more human
yeah exactly yeah
um and yeah
make sure there's no m dashes no
no m dashes
that's a pain in my life I think now uh
not chat GPT
has got used to the fact that I don't like m dashes
it comes back whenever I'm
so I use it for creative posts on LinkedIn
yeah cause I can't
can't bother to write them myself now
I just get it to do it for me and it comes out saying
with no m dashes here's your post
I'm like brilliant thank you yeah
you finally got that finally yeah
after the hundredth time whatever
but I don't know uh
yeah and that is another problem that I see
generally in all of the markets
is some of the CVS
and they start to look a bit uniformed
and people having problems
so picking profiles apart
yeah even portfolios whereby they all look so uniformed
uh and I go
well it all says the same sort of thing
is this carbon copy of someone else's or yeah
like what what should I do
like how do I pick these people apart
and especially if you've got
I think we're we've moved past the
the hundreds and hundreds of applicants coming through
cause the market has so picked up and is now
fairly normalized levels across the
the board but
when you're having lots of applicants coming through
for for jobs that you're looking at
is
trying to differentiate things that all look the same
like how do you do that um
I think a part of that is as well
like how how do people stand out as well
like in in in a bit of a crowded market there
like I had um a
a a portfolio recently that I saw that had like a
almost like a TikTok style kind of video
that was per kind of each kind of case study
and I was like just it was a different approach
and it was like OK cool
I might have a look at this
I'm not gonna watch every single video
cause I don't have the time
but it was like a way of standing out
and that was like really key as well
so I think like how people can be
think about standing out is
is is a key bit there as well
because otherwise everything does look the same
yeah OK as well
so getting someone's attention is that
is that interaction initially
isn't it yeah
first impressions
you said getting someone to actually right read it
yeah otherwise you're just gonna
be going into the same file as everyone
which is hmm maybe yeah
exactly um
so I think yeah
thinking about it almost a bit like a design project
like what's the problem you're trying to solve
or like problem with your CV or the the
the problem
I think you're trying to solve with your CV is
can I get a conversation with a recruiter
mm hmm um
and then the next thing is like with your
your portfolio and I was giving a friend
some advice about this recently
as well like
you don't need to have every single detail
and case study in that portfolio
that's what the case study round is for yeah um
so like again this should be like how do you get the
the eye of the hire manager
how do you show that you're a good enough designer
to get a conversation
so like at each point of the process
what's the problem that you're trying to solve
yeah and how are these artifacts and
and things showing up for you and doing that work um
is is such a key bit
I'm always very conscious that
I try not to give too much advice on my CVS
formatting and my portfolios
even my because I think actually
it should be down to the individual
and as a designer you should have your
personality come through
in the things that you're doing
the only thing I normally say is similar to you
is I tell the story that's yeah
what most people want to see is telling the story
and I'd say
I think what we were just saying just then was
you don't need to have like 10 case studies yeah
one or two what one or two good ones in there
and with enough depth that it shows that you can think
yeah
and it shows off your craft
and then the rest we can fill in during a chat yeah
um like we do
you do not need to go into detail um
as someone that I mean
I confess I don't read anymore yeah
um
it feels weird like I don't write and I don't read
alright but
but it's true like
we're all so busy
and we're all kind of used to kind of like quick short
snappy you know things um
like
if you're gonna send over a case study that is like
you know 12 pages long
there's no way that hiring manager is gonna read that
cause they're looking at however many other people
at the same time
so how do you capture the attention
how do you land the key bits
and the rest can be a conversation
you talked about the person who put like
the mini TikTok sort of videos on the yeah
the CV what
what sort of other things
what's the best thing that you've seen in a portfolio
or a CV that's really grabbed your attention
um I
think the thing I've seen more recently
is actual live work um
so they've been able to because of again
because I've been able to vibe
code and all the rest of it
being able to show
links to actual kind of prototypes and experiences
like that that's really stood out to me um
and again a real signal that they are like
kind of at that kind of
more cutting edge of the technology side of things
as well so not just flat visuals and not just videos
which you know
of videos of of products
the actual product and the actual feature
and I think it's always like
if you can see people's thinking and like
what they've discarded
and how they've got to that solution
that's a key bit as well cause too often
I think we're all a bit guilty of this is like
oh first idea cool
that's done move on
cause you know there's pressure there to ship
or there's pressure there to move on to the next thing
um but what
how have they got to that decision
and how did they show that in their processes
yeah is such a key bit
you talked about like bootcamps and yeah
juniors coming coming in
getting grads through
do you think degrees in design and
and UCD still have relevance
I don't know and I feel a bit of bias here cause I
I never properly studied design yeah
um I did a part time college course um
so you could certainly say that I did a level of
of study but um
I didn't go to university yeah
um and I
I so I didn't do me any harm uh
so but you say that as a no
that's not relevant so no
I don't think so like
I think you know
it has its place for some of the
kind of core theory and stuff like that but
but honestly like there's nothing beats real experience
um and
and for me like starting out
I kind of like 17 kind of 16
17 in an agency um
like learning the craft and learning by doing
and learning by failing yeah
um taught me way more than I ever got out of my college
course and what would you suggest then to sort of any
you know young new designers
it could be young could be old
we're not ageist here yeah
um but people who are new to design
so coming through we said earlier it's difficult for
you know designers come through
we don't see many junior roles
entry level roles across the board in the market
so how can people
position themselves to get some of that experience
what can they do to help themselves
um other than going on a boot camp
which I'm not sure either of us
really think it's a great idea yeah
um so what yeah
what can people do yeah
I mean not only is
I think
the quality of what you get out of those boot camps
probably not that great
their cost for it is astronomical
and then they tell you
you'll have a job at the end of it
which is a load of rubbish
exactly so like definitely no boot camps yeah
um I think by doing the work
like find a product redesign it
have a point of view on it
like take something you know
we've all got phones full of apps
like pick one of them and think well
how would I approach this differently
what what would it be like if we used the
the Spotify experience for Airbnb
like what would how would that feel
yeah um
and I guess start forming and having a point of view um
and that really comes into that piece of
run that product thinking um
as well like have a strong point of view
like obviously you know
be able to have that challenged um
but but starting with having a bit of a point of view
and building up some um
experience around that um
and I think just start by doing um
again in a world where you can create
things much more easily than you've ever could
there's almost no excuse now
and so like and show
show the work show the thinking yeah OK yeah
so just get get out there
do some actual work
be all be it sort of your project work
that you're not getting paid for
but look at it have an opinion on stuff
build some case studies yeah
go and show people yeah exactly
um and I think that's the thing of like just
you know speak to as many people as possible like
you know the power of cold outreach
it does work yeah
um like I've done it myself
yeah
and it's exhausting and you might have to contact like
you know like 4
500 people to get three conversations
but it does work yeah
and uh
and find that angle and find that way of like
getting their attention
and why they should speak to you um
and I think like that perseverance is
is a skill that like
we're all so used to just getting things really easily
now um
like you're gonna have to do the work and it's possible
I think it's good people get hired
that needs to be be relearned
especially by a lot of people coming through in
in the market in all markets across all
all things we do
I think even in what we do in translating to
to recruitment right yeah
our daily daily job is ultimately going and
trying to reach out to like
300 people and maybe speaking to three yeah
uh so like having that
that perseverance is a really key skill to help you
yeah move forward in life
and when in a world where there's so much noise
you've got to try and cut through it yeah
it's mean and I think part of that is like
you're probably not gonna come
create this generic message in an AI tool
and then spam 300 people because it looks like that
yeah um
like and it gets ignored yeah
shock exactly and you're all I've contacted 300 people
you haven't really you know
like you've sent the same thing out like yeah
is it actually better to be a bit more choosy about it
and and find like
maybe say
10 to 15 key people and tailor something to them um uh
and and find ways of speaking to them um
as well so like I think that more considered approach
um again
in a world where you can create things so quickly um
and and create the AI slop
like how do you cut through that
um as well
it's probably through being yourself being human and
and finding that real connection
and we've talked then about
so junior people coming into the market
but what about people leveling up going
doing what you've done
so going from someone who's a practitioner operational
very hands on and you're a creative person
by the things you've just said yeah
uh previously to then moving into that leadership role
which is a very different beast overall
when you suddenly stop
being sort of hands on in the craft
using the tools so
how does someone sort of
elevate themselves to move into that
head of design role VP of design
call it whatever you will yeah
I mean I think there's a real shift at the moment
around what the expectations are of
people in these kind of senior leadership roles um
it used to be all about pure people management um
and I think we're
we're kind of seeing a bit of a backlash on that
for probably all the right reasons yeah
um that there's still
there is an expectation
and there probably always should have been
an expectation that there's a level of hands on
I'm that still required
so I think people that are practitioners
thinking about
maybe moving into kind of more leadership positions
there's
there's almost more ways of doing that than ever
a a route that was probably never
always there before was the well
you can still be an IC um
you can still deliver work at a much more senior level
and a much more level of complexity
and organizations and organizations are loving that um
because you're delivering value
that's actually tangible um
and I think the other part is around OK
if you are gonna lean into that kind of um
people leadership type um role um
how do you still connect back to the work
how are you shaping the work shaping the outcomes
it might not mean that you're any squad or whatever
delivering work every day in Figma
but you're still accountable for the overall experience
and you can't do that without having a point of view
without being able to kind of show what good
looks like and a level of hands on is
is always gonna be I think required
and I think that's a bit
we've probably lost over the years
is that we've transitioned into design leaders that
that that that can't do any design anymore yeah
and it's like that's
that feels a bit weird um
feels like it's changing though
I think I when I see amongst the team that we have
when we get requests for people to be design leaders
as you say they don't
they're not gonna be in the tools every single day
yeah and hopefully
hiring people who are better at using
Figma than they are to yeah
do all of the yeah
that's the whole point oh yeah
I mean you don't
you don't wanna see me in Figma like yeah
I am slow and I still
rather go back to using
illustrator for most of the stuff
cause it's just much quicker but um yeah
I mean again
I'll I'll be back in flash if I could yeah
yeah yeah
I was gonna say yeah
be straight back in flash exactly
exactly but um
but yeah I don't think it's necessary
about that level of proficiency in these tools
and things like
cause the tools always change as well
but like like
how are you shaping the ideas
and how are you shaping that experience
and equally
let's go have a debate about the rounded corners like
you know fine
like it's fun
but I think
there's some people that maybe lost that element of
connection to design and why they got into it
because they've almost got distracted
but I think right now
we're seeing a shift in the industry
and I think it's quite exciting
yeah nice
it definitely I mean
there's so much change going on
yeah across the board
yeah I personally think it's an exciting time
and as I said earlier a time
and an opportunity
for people in the design industry to really
level up and OK
yeah and
get that proverbial seat at the table
that everyone's always craving for yeah
uh uh
I mean be careful what you wish for
yeah is what I always say like yeah
I I remember there was
there was a boss of mine once said uh
when I was oh yeah
I really wanna be on this leadership team
like be careful what you wish for
I got that I got that position
I'm like oh yeah
you were right weren't you
what was it with the it wasn't uh
wasn't wasn't what you wanted
it wasn't I just think I was really exposed to like
really what was going on in the organization okay
and yeah like yeah
ignorance is bliss yeah
so um
yeah but no
I think there's I mean
I joke aside I think we all want to
have a level of influence
and I think that's
when we talk about seats at the table
and things like that
I think it really does come back to that influence
piece
and I almost come back to your question around like
people that are looking to move into more leadership
positions it's all about influence isn't it
it's about influence and communication
and like
we're all probably somewhat bad at it in some ways
and we're all probably finding
working our way out through that
but but those that can really can build that
that credibility through their
the way that they communicate
the way that they storytell
and the way that they can ultimately influence and
and and change and you know
people and systems and teams around them
like those are the folks that will always
really succeed in those roles
so we've talked obviously a lot about AI today
which is again no surprise to to most people
it seems to be the basis of most of my
most of my conversations these days
and probably will be for a
a little while to come
lots of organizations trying to implement AI
into their ways of working it
into their products etcetera
but not always getting it absolutely right
and sometimes bolting things on and etcetera
we've all
heard of horror stories of things that have not gone
gone well so how can how can organizations really
I suppose qualify first and foremost
like what they should be implementing
and then go about actually getting some value from it
because yeah it's all about creating value
rather than just doing it because someone said oh
we should do this thing yeah
totally and I think that's such a key bit again
talk talking of of memes and things earlier
like the the classic thing as well around well
CEO wants AI we want AI
all the things and it's just like
you know before we know we're just doing things because
but but we don't really know why
I think like that's a big part
I think that the approach that I've taken
um with this kind of transformation around like
AI first workflows is like
why are we doing this well
it keeps coming back to me about
how do we move from idea to validation
um whether it's a good idea or a bad idea
but how do we how do we close that
that gap and so everything that
that we're doing is really around that
so like that's
that's our why
so I think the first thing is what is your why
why are you doing this and if you don't know
go back and do the five wise exercise type thing
and then I think once you have got that
like
one of the things that we've really invested in is
a level of like uh
baselining our AI maturity
um like
where do we wanna be because um
I'm I'm I have a bit of a technical background
I love jumping into code and all that type of stuff
I realized the rest of the team isn't um
and just because like
I'm happy to spend my evenings and weekends
playing around and tinkering with stuff
I know that the rest of the team
aren't at that point yet yeah
so like what we actually had to do is meet the team
where they're at um
and that's meant actually
real basics around what makes a good prompt um
like you know
I will admit I once put into Figma make with a screen
make this that didn't really deliver what I wanted
shock horror um
spoiler alert exactly
doesn't work that doesn't work
so um yeah
um but like how are we
what is our maturity around
even just prompt engineering
um I'm thinking about
how do you get things out of your tools
like Gemini and Claude and other things like that first
so most people don't know about no
the prompts and I think most people are
so probably
I don't know again
made up stat but
90% of people using AI
products don't know how to prompt it properly
no I mean
how many people are using chat
GPT and other things like this like Google
um like so many
most of the time exactly
yeah it's
it's not I still do it as well
yeah sometimes
yeah sometimes
and I go that didn't give me what I wanted ah
I didn't ask it properly yeah
exactly and I
think that's one of the skills that people
are developing as well
as a way to articulate yourself
and like that's a journey that I've been on as well
because like you like make this doesn't actually
you don't get what you want um
so like I think actually meeting the team
where they're at has been such a key bit
and thinking about like what's that baseline
where are we and where are we trying to get to
um and thinking about the various
different kinds of streams or
or things within that um
the other bit says like
it's not all about shipping codes
like we've been using a lot of the tools for um
like you know
kind of research synthesis
like using things like notebook LM mean
a great thing to bring a repository of research
together
to be able to create a little kind of show reels of um
like then they can a podcast feature or
or things like that
to be able to share on the business
like there's things like that
that we've been able to use as well so um
I think it's about like
almost exposing people to everything
and then kind of seeing kind of what where
where what sticks
but also like where do you really wanna push on and
and when is the time right for that as well so um
like cause what
we've noticed is that those that have spent the time
learning how to prompt or
or focus on kind of refining the prompt experience
when they are putting this into things like Claude Code
or whatever else they're probably using way less tokens
because they're being a bit more accurate
yeah well
so there's a cost saving aspect
yeah yeah
yeah but they're also getting what they want
much quicker as well so like it for us
like that that level of
of of um
or that approach has been super key
yeah nice
and it's it's
what do you think about those organisations
that are resisting sort of the yeah
implementing AI into their businesses
so the other other way around yeah
I mean I think probably need to ask why
like again
like what is what is it
is it is it fear like
you know
there's naturally there's a lot of fear around like
will this take people's jobs um
and I think the way I'm thinking about it is
it might take some of them
like I think we should be honest
like let's not say that
you know AI is not gonna take anyone's jobs type thing
but it's also gonna create so many new jobs
it's the natural evolution yeah
we've got like
a super senior conversation designer in our team that
like that role didn't exist how many years ago like
yeah you know
the person that we've got is awesome
they're a borderline engineer as well
and like just we just wouldn't have had that
um
so like there's so many things coming out and life to
to organizations that maybe are slightly resisting
about it is
is it fear or or
or what is what's that reason
I guess it's hard to say like
what my advice would be
without actually having that conversation
but I think it's probably digging into like
what's that underlying piece around it yeah
um is it a security thing
cause that's real as well
like you don't want people
taking all your customer information
and dumping it into a public
um you know LLM
um you know
I think there's a lot of that
isn't there
there's probably a lot of that large organizations
finance etcetera
you know highly regulated industries like like
like over is as well um
like you know
we need to be careful like yup
you know there's
there's certain things there's a
you know approval processing things that
that big organizations and
and regulated industries need to have
um so that's fair
um but it's possible
but like
how do you think about that and how do you bring
I think for me a lot of this is around
what's the culture that you're creating
yeah um
around this because that's probably the hardest bit
um like
how do you shift that culture
uh and I think for me
a lot of it keeps coming back to that that
that how did that learning culture
how do you keep people learning
um because it's moving so quickly
and how do you keep them adapting
um so that
that'd be part of the advice
I'd say nice
and if you could go back to the start of your career
and giving yourself a piece of advice to
to get you to where you are now
what would that bit be oh
good question what would I say
um I mean
I'd probably say invest in your future network
and building that future network before you need it yep
um because everyone thinks about who their peers are
who's around them and we almost get obsessed with like
oh such and such is this job they're doing
this type of thing
you almost forget that actually those are the
those are
those people are not gonna help you get your next role
yeah um
it's gonna be the people that are above them
and what happens
when they move into those more senior roles um
so like I'd say building on that future network
whether you're a grad thinking about your first role
or thinking about actually
now I'm moving from kind of
you know IC into manager or whatever else
or now I'm looking at like a VP level role like OK cool
your audience now is probably the CEOs in the C suite
yeah and so how are you building those networks
um like that
that to me would be
the thing to not get caught out by that
you don't have the network when you need it
and that's where I see it all the time
is the No. 1 piece of advice that I give to people yeah
say I'm cautious not to give too much advice
but I think I'm probably well uh
well qualified to say about
you know building a network
cause that's yeah
we do we monetize our networks yeah
ultimately you should go and do it for yourself
if you wanna really elevate yourself yeah
have those conversations reach out
not feels feels a bit weird to say
but not rely on recruiters too much because yeah
there's times and places where people don't want to use
consultancies and agencies to find people yeah
but like the best probably the best rules that I've had
or the best conversations I've had about rules
have not come through um
the rules coming on LinkedIn yeah
um that doesn't happen
it's through conversations
yeah and it's through
you know whether that is a recruiter conversation
like building that network of recruiters yep
um or equally is
is it through like you know
other people that you know
people you work with that type of thing
they it's always through those conversations
it's never because that perfect job pops up on LinkedIn
um I think it did once for me but um
but it does happen it's yeah
but it's rare you're absolutely right
like most of the time it's
through the conversations you're having with people
yeah building that network
I love that piece of advice
yeah absolutely sage
so Ferguson
thank you so much for coming on the podcast
it's been an absolute pleasure having you
I think we've probably put the world to rights
yes on all things design today and some
some real nuggets of wisdom that I'm sure people will
hopefully take something out of awesome
no thanks so much for having me
um it's been really great thanks
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