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We're the love your neighbor kind of Christians, not the storm the capitol kind. So, if you're curious about what a socially and politically progressive Christianity looks like, this podcast is for you! In each episode we discuss politics, pop culture, and anything else we find interesting from the perspective of progressive Christianity.
The Progressive Christians Podcast is available on all podcast platforms, TikTok, and Instagram, https://linktr.ee/theprogressivechristians
The Progressive Christians Podcast is a ministry of The Loft, a worship community of Westwood United Methodist Church.
[0:00] That's part of what today's episode is going to be is like try and understand how did this go so wrong that Christianity has ended up being
[0:07] something that has a tradition or a reputation of hurting people instead of helping people.
[0:12] Yeah. How did Christians be like, you know, it's good? Let's own some slaves.
[0:16] It's like that sounds like a great plan, right? Like h how did we get from Jesus saying love your neighbor to fascist enslavement?
[0:28] Own your neighbor. Ex. Yeah. Love your neighbor, love your neighbor. Wow.
[0:32] Greetings and welcome to the Progressive Christians podcast. We are the love your neighbor kind of Christians and not the kind who use government funds to build video games about capturing immigrants.
[0:44] We believe that loving your neighbor, seeking justice, and questioning power, and welcoming those who have been outcast are not the result of a watered
[0:52] down faith. In each episode, we show you that the progressive Christian tradition is rooted in the ancient Christian tradition. Progressive Christianity
[1:00] isn't new. It's 2,000 years old. So, if you're someone who grew up in the church and something started feeling wrong, like the Christianity around you and the
[1:08] Jesus you read about just didn't match up, you're in the right place.
[1:12] If you left the church and you're not sure that you can go back, but some little part of you isn't ready to let go of the whole thing, you're in the right
[1:20] place. And if you've never set foot in a church in your life, but you believe that loving your neighbor is actually the whole point, you're especially in the right place.
[1:27] Thanks for joining us. My name is Reverend Dr. Christopher Carter, and today I am delighted to be joined by, Reverend Blair,
[1:35] Everest, Julia, and Wesley.
[1:39] And we are in episode two of our series on deconstruction. And today we're going to be discussing the religion of Jesus
[1:48] versus the religion about Jesus. Uh but before we get into that, we want to invite you to become a supporter of the podcast. You can or you will find a link
[1:57] to make a taxdeductible donation in the show notes. Um if you like our work and our content, uh we are a um ministry
[2:05] that definitely needs uh the support. So thank you so much for listening and we hope that you can contribute. Uh, and I
[2:14] am um excited for today's conversation in part because it's something that I first encountered when I read Howard Thurman, the concept and Julia. It's
[2:23] been something that's come up several times on because I've gestured around it enough in the last episodes about Jesus as a religious subject versus object or
[2:30] religion of Jesus and religion about Jesus is how I said it this past Sunday that I think um kind of captures the essence of it and that's kind of was
[2:38] trying to trying to frame it. Um, and I felt like I hit that note, but I mean, I don't know. I I think whenever I preach, I finish I I never end a sermon. I
[2:47] rarely do end a sermon thinking, "Oh, yeah. I just I nailed it." I'm just like, "It was, you know, I don't know, man." Like, no one got up and left, so
[2:54] it wasn't terrible. So, I always told myself that if I ever if I ever stopped being nervous about
[3:02] preaching, then that was my cue to stop doing it. Yeah.
[3:05] Because we should always be anxious about trying to represent the word of God to the people of God. like that is a holy and heavy task. And so yeah, if I
[3:13] ever feel like I'm not nervous about doing it anymore or I feel like I've said everything that needs to be said and there is no more to be said, that is
[3:21] my cue that I I should not be pastoring until my soul gets right again.
[3:27] Wow. I will say I am going to and this is kind of a preview to my ideas for what I want to wrap up our series next
[3:33] week. Everest the sermon you preached in the live a few weeks ago about Paul is
[3:41] really good in particular when you think about what you're in I think the kind of church we're trying to become and the only thing I've been as I've continued
[3:49] to think about it is um Barnabas and thinking about how we talk about the kind of person who supports someone
[3:57] right who has been seen as an outsider trying to become an insider. So, ever I can What was the name? What was the name of um that sermon?
[4:07] Hospitality that you preach a lot. I don't know why the name of it. It's on cuz I want to link it in the show notes now cuz I'm like it's really really good. It's called God Has No Favorites.
[4:14] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it was Yeah. Look at you. You can't even It was It was so good, too. I like sent it to my friends. I was like, "Man, this is so good." And is like, "I don't know,
[4:23] man. It was It was whatever." But, uh yeah. Um Blair, do you want to maybe do a like you said a quick recap of uh last week's episode before we get
[4:32] into kind of what we are building on for this coming up week?
[4:35] Yeah. So Dr. Carter explained last episode that we are doing a three episode series on deconstruction. Um
[4:42] last week we talked about our own sort of deconstruction stories except for Wesley who's the only one of us who's actually deconstructed. But you're going
[4:50] to have to tune in to next week's episode to hear that story. Oo, a little plug. Love that teaser. Stick around. stick around.
[4:57] But the basic gist of last week we kind of drilled down to is that uh progressive Christianity takes education
[5:05] as a process of formation. It's not um a counter or opposite of faith, right? Like learning
[5:14] is not the opposite of faith. Doubt is not the opposite of faith in the progressive tradition. In fact, learning, wrestling, continuing to grow
[5:22] and ask questions is a fundamental aspect of the practice of Christianity for progressive traditions. Um, versus
[5:29] our more conservative, high control religions that are sort of like you pray the sinner's prayer, you take all of these creeds or these rules and you follow them or you're not a Christian.
[5:39] And so the process of deconstruction still happens in progressive spaces, but it's usually not quite as traumatic and and not necessarily quite as intense.
[5:50] And we're also thinking about like what is it that has created this system where
[5:57] we have Christian traditions we have to dramatically deconstruct from. And so that's part of what today's episode is going to be is like try and understand
[6:06] how did this go so wrong that Christianity has ended up being something that has a tradition or a reputation of hurting people instead of helping people.
[6:16] Yeah. How did Christians be like, you know, it's good? Let's own some slaves.
[6:20] It's like that sounds like a great plan, right?
[6:24] H how did we get from Jesus saying love your neighbor to fascist enslavement? your neighbor.
[6:33] Ex. Wow. To chase chase.
[6:39] That sounds like a t-shirt they would wear, too. From love your neighbor. I mean, you know, they probably wear it in their house. From love your neighbor to owning your neighbor. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm just saying. I'm just saying.
[6:47] We could make a t-shirt that says the opposite. From own your neighbor to love your neighbor.
[6:51] That's fair. That's fair. We could do that. We could do that. We could do that. Deconstructing the lost cause theology.
[6:56] Like, would anyone buy that? I don't know. I just like the idea of wearing that. I'm just like, oh, okay. I mean, You're correct.
[7:04] How did we end up with a a ruddy Middle Eastern Jewish pacifist savior that
[7:14] turned into a religion that defended slaveolding? Like how did that how how did that happen?
[7:20] How did we get there? How did we get there? That's what we're that's what we're answering today. So I think um and so the contrast that we that's kind of
[7:29] framed the episode is the religion of Jesus versus the religion about Jesus.
[7:34] And I first encountered this term in um a a version of this term in Howard Thurman's Jesus and the disinherited um
[7:41] when he's writing from the perspective of a you know early 20th century uh black Christian who was trying to
[7:49] justify his Christianity to an Indian um man who is just experienced British
[7:57] colonialism and is saying like this is the kind of language they use to just justify not only colonizing us but and partition right I mean people don't talk
[8:05] about the the deep impact of India Pakistan and partition right like and the ways in which they explicitly
[8:12] organize bodies around religion right it's terrible when you look at the history of India and what Britain did and I think what Thurman does such a
[8:20] good job of he's saying how if you actually look at the context of Jesus and who he was writing to you can see
[8:27] that Jesus has a particular message and that other Christians later on use his
[8:35] message or manipulated his message to justify their pursuit of power. And so what I want to disentangle today is okay, what are the things that Jesus
[8:42] actually said that I believe are life-giving and and liberating and really are at the the message of what it
[8:49] means to be um transformed and to uh experience salvation versus the ways in which over the course of the history of
[8:57] Christianity, those messages were misinterpreted um and used in ways to justify all manner of harm, right? I
[9:06] mean whether it is um you can go as far as again enslavement or in colonization but even when you talk about treatments
[9:12] of women um of uh gender minorities and all expressions the planet all these things are I think misinterpretations of
[9:20] kind of these two categories um and and I think that I think it's a helpful framework and why I think some of us say
[9:28] this is the um the an important distinction for how I classify myself.
[9:34] But I'm curious um y'all what what y'all think about this kind of distinction. Do do you find it actually Wesley I'm really curious about I want to start
[9:42] with you because I think you're the of all of us the one who like is like uh you know you you don't you're fine not
[9:49] using defining yourself within the label of Christian per se but you're like kind like eh you know. So anyway so how does that how does that fit with you? No, I
[9:57] really I really appreciate that those two framings because I think um when you said it as we were prepping I was like oh no that's interesting because I think what it points to is I mean all my
[10:06] issues that I have with Paul uh some of the things that happened in other parts of the scripture where like those seem to be overshadowed by what Jesus was
[10:13] doing. Um, but I think another aspect is so much of like conservative Christianity feels like it's about defending God and defending whatever
[10:22] they think Jesus did or stood for instead of just living out what Jesus was practicing in his life. Um, and I think that creates this like
[10:31] responsibility for people who are defending God, defending Jesus to feel like they have to have this like bigger,
[10:38] more authoritative perception of their own Christianity instead of one that is more about
[10:46] being with people and as we say in the loft helping like moving like being about human flourishing. So, I I I I
[10:54] really it's a it's a nice easy sort of distinction um that helps sort of filter out some of the things that I dislike
[11:01] about the way that Christianity is currently manifested in this country and maybe even around the world.
[11:07] Yeah. Well, this is where it's like kind of annoying that the conservatives have monopolized what would Jesus do as a
[11:14] saying because it does feel like my roots in progressive Christianity
[11:22] before reading any of the texts, before knowing any of the scholars was a real
[11:29] what would Jesus do question and kind of putting the actions of Jesus, especially in the historical context of when he
[11:38] lived and the ministry that he had. And when I translate that into
[11:46] what I see happening around me, it feels pretty obvious, I guess, to me what Jesus would be doing.
[11:54] Do conservative Christians still say that? I was wondering the same thing, Julia. I recently though saw a sweat.
[12:01] I cannot possibly still say that. that like really put the nail the nail on the head. Like instead of saying what would
[12:08] Jesus do, it said who would Jesus bomb and there was another one that said who would Jesus imprison?
[12:14] And obviously what would Jesus do?
[12:17] Yeah. Let's just put the things that Jesus obviously wouldn't do and that people are doing and claiming in his name because we're not getting it with
[12:24] the question, what would Jesus do anymore.
[12:28] I think this is the crazy part is where the esquetology episodes were so helpful because I they would just argue Jesus.
[12:34] They're like, "Well, if you look at I mean, I know I can already hear their counter arguments in my head and I'm just like, they're wrong." But they would point to those passages and
[12:42] particularly in Revelation about accountability and what happens at the end and their argument that, well, we're at the end so all these things are okay.
[12:49] But again, but they think that they're supposed to be the one to do it.
[12:53] I know. Well, that's the thing too, and this is kind of when we get to both of y'all points, um, Ever and Wesley, is like or Wesley, especially what you said
[13:01] about defending God. Like, how small is your God that your God needs to be, you know what I'm saying? Like, that doesn't make any sense. How small is your God that your God needs to be defended?
[13:09] Well, this is like when the when Oh god, when was it where one of the Trump sons was like, "We are saving God from the
[13:17] ripples." And I was like, "What? God doesn't God doesn't need you to save, right? Like what?
[13:26] Well, like that's part of like the hubris of maybe American Christianity. 100%. That's what I was going to say.
[13:35] I can't part of the key difference. you talked about, you know, Paul as sort of the first example of, well, I I maybe
[13:42] didn't say this, but I heard it in my brain is like Paul is actually our first example of religion about Jesus and not religion of Jesus because Paul didn't
[13:49] know Jesus. And some scholars really drive into um examining the way in which Peter carries out his ministry and then
[13:58] becomes the first pope. It's not Paul who's the first pope. It's not Paul who Jesus says, "I'm going to build my church on." It's Peter. And Paul serves
[14:05] an important role because he is helping people who are not from the historic ancient um community of Israel of the
[14:14] Jewish faith and and ethnicity to encounter the way of Christ. Um so Paul is incredibly important. But when you
[14:22] center your religious beliefs and practices only on Paul and you ignore how Peter operated in the New Testament,
[14:30] you are missing the religion of Jesus and you are focusing only on the religion about Jesus.
[14:38] I do I want to pivot because we'll end up on an episode a whole episode on Paul which I know we got to do. I know we got to do but but but I know I know I can see Julia's face. Julia's like I'm like
[14:47] she's ready to die. I know what you're putting down.
[14:51] I know. But I think I think to be fair um to Paul I interestingly I don't I
[14:58] always wonder if you writing a letter to a church do you feel like oh man like 2,000 years later somebody could be looking at this letter that I'm writing
[15:06] and saying this is like the that's what I'm saying and so I don't know that we even get the full context of Paul as such. So and and and one might say he
[15:14] his encounter with Christ on Damascus is an encounter but not the same degree we can talk about with Peter. So I think going back to Jesus and what Jesus
[15:23] actually said and kind of what you know the encounters that obviously ways which Peter would have been able to be around this person to glean
[15:31] um these uh way of life really which is what I would say like Christianity is.
[15:38] Um so just briefly to kind of talk about the social context Jesus is um coming from. It's a two-class society where um
[15:46] anthropologists describe this as kind of like the an imperial domination system where you have like basically 93 or 95%
[15:53] of the population are peasants and near 5% of the people who actually have money. I mean I'm not saying it's exactly like now because obviously we don't have peasants.
[16:02] We're on our way babes. I mean, we feel I feel like we're on we're tracking we're tracking that direction.
[16:08] Might be better if we just started calling it an oligarchy. Like just start calling it what it is.
[16:13] I mean, it's I mean I mean we have but Yeah. I I I like imperial domination. I mean it sounds too
[16:20] I like as a describe it as a term as a term as a term. I don't like it.
[16:28] Should we call it the billion billionaire domination system?
[16:33] I mean I think oh man I I just think that it does describe what's happening but that to me and just my way I like more words
[16:40] to describe things but um the the central point that I think or why this is important is that this inequality was
[16:49] like moralized like through the religious systems of Rome but also the Jewish elite began to moralize their
[16:58] particular con their circumstances um And and because of that moralization and that political marginalization, you get
[17:08] Jesus speaking to people who are um feel as though they are in a space of
[17:16] I want to say like despair. They're in a space of despair. And I think what Jesus does is actually move them towards grief, which is actually acknowledging their feelings that gives them space for
[17:23] hope. um in terms of drawing a distinction between what Jesus taught and what gets misapplied with respect to
[17:32] um his teachings later on after um you know yeah after hundreds of years and when it becomes a
[17:40] part of the Roman Empire I think the first one that's really important is sin and the reason I say it's important is because it becomes the tool through
[17:47] which I think the institutions begin to leverage and use to control bodies and so I think many of us grew up with
[17:54] notions of sin that were very much like like a very like a list of rules, right?
[17:59] But not like even the ten commandment kind of list of rules like just you know it was like I mean it was like don't have sex, don't swear, don't drink. What is there's a scripture that that comes
[18:07] from. What is the Well, there's all sorts of scriptures with lists of sins or lists of failures.
[18:15] You talking about like the like Yeah.
[18:17] deadly sins or whatever like the opposite of the um fruit of spirit.
[18:21] Yes. the opposite of the fruit of the spirit.
[18:23] Yeah. So, it's it's in it's in the same place they're talking about in Galatians. Um but I know like the things that I was taught it was like, you know,
[18:31] don't have sex. Don't um it wasn't even swearing in my family cuz we curse too much. So, I wouldn't even swear. It was
[18:38] more like, you know, um don't uh it sexuality was a huge thing. Like, it was always kind of this
[18:48] can you can you not? like there it was very much like this was still hotly uh debated um saying the Lord's name in vain. So even if you did curse you
[18:55] couldn't you know cuz in their brain they thought that was saying God something versus what it actually is which is saying something is of God when
[19:03] it's clearly not. Um, and it was very much like a kind of legal set of rules
[19:10] rather than the way in which you engage each other, right? Do you honor your parents? You know, do you um follow
[19:18] whatever laws that are in place. It wasn't really anything about transformation. And I think that's just not the way Jesus talked about it. I
[19:27] guess before I maybe say a little bit more, um, wait, let me read the scripture.
[19:31] I was going to say how I thought about sin. Yeah. Acts of the flesh. Galatians 5:19-21.
[19:38] And it says, "The acts of the flesh are obvious. Sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery, idolatry and witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage,
[19:46] selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy, drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not
[19:54] inherit the kingdom of God." Now it is really interesting that we like look at sexual morality, impurity and debauchery and then basically we stop.
[20:05] Yeah. Like depending on hatred, discord, selfish ambition. Those things are fine. Those things are fine actually.
[20:12] Is your selfishness rooted in God? I mean that's you know it's ridiculous. I mean even idolatry I would say is the primary one that consistently I like the witchcraft is there.
[20:22] Yeah. Just call it out. Name it. Name the witchcraft.
[20:29] Yeah. Yeah. And then I was like, are there just a lot more orgies in in that time of day?
[20:35] I'm like, I would not be I mean, how how is that on a list anyway?
[20:38] Well, okay. So to defend Paul slightly, right, to defend Paul slightly is when you read his letters, you have to remember he is speaking into a
[20:46] particular context and he's trying he's desperately trying to explain actually the religion of Jesus to a Greek and
[20:54] Roman audience who have a particular way of living and are unfamiliar with Judaism and the teachings historical
[21:02] teachings of the prophets etc. And so most of the things that he talks about are specific realities in Greek culture.
[21:12] So yes, orgies were actually incredibly common and often they were a part of religious rituals and witchcraft was uh
[21:21] was quite common and was a a way of actually trying to take care of the community when the religious officials
[21:28] ignored them. Um, I don't I'm not gonna go off on my tangent about witchcraft, but yes, these are like these are things
[21:35] that get listed because they are things that the community Paul is trying to walk with are genuinely experiencing.
[21:44] But this is where it gets lost is when you read the Bible literally, you think this list of things is the sins forever
[21:51] and ever. Amen. Instead of saying what why is Paul picking these things? What's going on in the society that Paul is picking these things? And then what are
[22:00] similar things that are happening in our world that are equally challenges to the fruits of the spirit?
[22:09] Yeah.
[22:09] Peace, joy, love, faithfulness, patience, judgement, self control.
[22:13] Lens is is critical. I think when um having this um a lens that is a a
[22:22] literalistic kind of lens allows you to skip over the important context that helps explain right and help us unpack those
[22:30] passages. And this is why I think actually focusing on a Jesus lens one might say um is helpful um because it
[22:39] allows us to look at sin from the perspective of what Jesus wrote. And so I look to me um we you know if you listen this podcast for a while you know
[22:46] we define sin as a failure to bother to love which is primarily gleaned from Jesus's passage on the good Samaritan right like and Jesus every time he's
[22:55] talking about sin it's never in this kind of um list way it's much more about relationships in the way and who
[23:03] actually loves their neighbor. That's it. That's literally like who loves their neighbor and like then go and do likewise. That's basically it. and and
[23:10] that kind of it seems simple but in a sense it's actually it's really challenging because as as I've said
[23:19] before like we you know we sin out of our strengths and so the ways in which we can help people and we choose not to
[23:26] this is sin right there's no reason we don't have like fully funded healthcare in this country like we just
[23:34] well there is a reason well you know what I mean it's just a sinful reason I and I'm so glad you said so because I literally I swear I almost cursed like I
[23:41] it was my my my cuz if you it was just right there because I get so angry about healthcare.
[23:49] Um but just as an example it's the ways in which we we opt not to do things and I think churches do this too you know and in terms of
[23:57] everyone does it. That's the whole point I was like how we how we do or do not use our resources. And I will stop there before I get myself in trouble and I'll
[24:04] move on to um repentance. uh I like having a job. So I think when you look
[24:12] at the ways in which so we're talking about sin as a failure to bother to love um and um you know when Jesus is not
[24:20] talking about these ritualistic rules he's critiquing the Pharisees at a passage of Mark 7:14 where he tells the crowd nothing comes
[24:29] out of a person can enter them or nothing outside of a person can enter and contaminate a person in God's sight rather the things that come out of a
[24:37] person contaminates them. So it's about how you relate to people. And this goes to I would argue repentance which with respect to like the invitation to change
[24:45] our mind, right? The invitation to actually um go beyond the mind that we have and see a full scope and picture of
[24:53] things. And so where you look at Mark 1 14 and 15. So these are the oldest texts that we have that actually record the
[25:01] words of Jesus. And so when Jesus is talking about repent, this word translates to mean return from exile
[25:08] and also to change your mind like literally see things a new that the way in which you've saw each other or
[25:16] thought about relating to each other is actually within a particular kind of domination system that isn't in alignment with the love that we've been
[25:23] taught to model like from God. And so I think that misinterpretation whereas you make the repentance this kind of trans
[25:30] like this um that isn't about transformation right that for me is just
[25:37] like fundamentally flawed. This is like the idea that it's like you go to confession. So you do all your sins and
[25:45] then you go to confession. You're like, "Forgive me, father, for I have sinned." And then he goes, "Okay,
[25:52] you're forgiven. Do this many Hail Marys." And then you're like, "I did it." And then you're free to go sin some more. Right.
[26:02] Basically, that's like conflated with actual repentance.
[26:07] Am I getting this wrong? No, that's it. That's it bec because it's it's about again when you are repent and
[26:14] transform it is in a very simplistic way this idea that it's not that you're quote unquote never going to do it again but it's a way in which you continue to
[26:21] grow right and mature and have a continue to deepen your understanding in
[26:28] such a way that you um deepen your understanding of the sacred in such a way that you recognize that
[26:37] failure within you and you try to actually center to that part that led you one might say astray. Right? It is a fundamental change of mind and understanding of who we are as relates
[26:46] to God and God's children. Blair, I just want to name too that we're able to describe it that way because that we live in a post-enlightenment,
[26:54] post-reformation theological world, right? So the ancient traditions, both Judaism and Greek, Roman religious
[27:02] practices, if you sinned against the gods, uh you had to take tribute to the gods. So like repentance was actually
[27:10] like bringing a gift, a sacrifice. Uh and it wasn't normal people who could ask for forgiveness from God. It was
[27:17] only the priestly class. And so this is why temple ritual, temple worship was so important in ancient Judaism after
[27:24] everything that sort of violated the laws of Moses or got you off or separated from the community, whether it
[27:32] was a natural thing like childbirth or uh an immoral thing like of
[27:39] harming someone actively, you had to bring penance essentially and a sacrifice to offer to God and then the
[27:47] priest would ask for forgiveness on your behalf. And changing that was a very
[27:54] hard thing to do, but it is what Jesus calls us to. And he he does talk about um
[28:02] that because the kingdom of God is near, there's sort of like a brokenness of that God only lives in the temple and
[28:10] only the priestly class have access. You know, Jesus also talks about like the temple will be destroyed, that the veil
[28:17] will be ripped. Um so this idea of a very hierarchical access to God, Jesus actually does disrupt that and that
[28:25] makes our relationship to God in terms of that reflective and um penitental penitential process much more direct.
[28:37] I mean we like extrapolated we didn't extrapolate that until much later in Christian history. But the seeds are being planted by Jesus's own words.
[28:46] Jesus and and John the Baptist. I mean, these are two anti-imple prophets, right? They're they are like critique that's you have the thank you for
[28:54] actually adding that context like you have the capacity to repent without going to the temple priests because again we get to labels
[29:02] like Jesus had issues with the temple you know John baptizing people out in the wilderness instead of in a traditional mikvah which is like a constructed
[29:12] baptismal font essentially that was required for ritual cleansing and had to be constructed according to these very specific parameters and you had to be
[29:20] very wealthy to have a mikvah or you had to pay for access to the community mikvah and instead John just goes out to the the wilderness and is like come get
[29:27] in the river like we don't we can we can cleanse ourselves we can repent we can change our lives on our own and that is
[29:34] revolutionary and Jesus is very much um in alignment with John the Baptist so that that shift that John is bringing um
[29:44] is a part of Jesus ministry so so Julia this is the part of your favorite book that I think she's dead on when she's talking about how Jesus goes.
[29:55] I I I I love when she went when Jesus she describes Jesus as following John the Baptist first before I think that
[30:02] that that that that tracks like when you read it I'm like that that tracks. I don't know.
[30:08] Anyway, so that if you haven't read um The Book of Longings by Book of Longings. Yep. Need to get it.
[30:14] Need to get it. Um I think the next thing that I want to get to um and is um
[30:21] salvation. And again, this ties to repentance in terms of how I believe salvation was much more from Jesus' perspective when he's talking about
[30:29] being born again. Even in John 3 and he's talking to Nicodemus and even the language of born again, right? It
[30:36] becomes this um way of a one-time confession, right? Whereas when
[30:45] you look at the Greek translations, it's a being born a new, being born from above. It is again
[30:54] building on the concept of repentance where it is being transformed like a higher state of consciousness, right?
[31:00] that one actually um understands and begins to try to aspire to um rather
[31:07] than um this more transactional ritualistic uh way of thinking about um
[31:15] access to God. And this is why Nicodemus is confused. He's just like, I don't understand how, you know, how can I climb back? Do I need to get be reborn
[31:23] for my mother? Um and even this where it goes on to say like um how I think again
[31:30] John 3:16 um for God so loved the world that he gave his son da da da da da. I think the interesting part is if I would
[31:37] argue that what we see in Jesus is a a renewed understanding of what it means to defeat sin not through death but
[31:45] through life and through love. Um, and this is one of the reasons I think salvation in the zosha being born again gets misinterpreted that I think we need
[31:53] to um dismantle um and we're going to talk more about how it came to be later on. Um, well,
[32:01] yeah, I think that's where so like when we talk about salvation um the thing that it makes me think about is that the examples that were given in the scriptures is a conversation with an
[32:10] adult like these there are adults being sort of asked these questions about repentance reflecting on where they were and where they're going. But growing up in the in the tradition that I grew up
[32:18] in the church of Christ, like most of my friends in the church got baptized when they were like 13 or 14. Um like what are they repenting from? What sins have
[32:27] they committed? They are children. They do not have the capacity to uh disenfranchise people. They do not have the capacity to like really make flourishing for other people difficult.
[32:37] Um, and so like I where whereas everyone in my community was getting baptized as at 13 or 14, I think I waited until like I was 17 when I had a better understanding.
[32:48] So it's just kind of like a strange thing to to ask children to reflect on the ways that they have
[32:55] sinned in this way, but then also to be born again to something new where like I don't know that we have the mental capacity to really think through what
[33:03] these ideas mean at that age. Uh but it is still a very common thing in so many Christian traditions. Uh not the case in
[33:11] in Methodism but like in so many other evangelical ones like that's infant like child baptism is a thing.
[33:18] I mean I mean I was I was a baby but in the Methodist tradition we think I think a little bit differently about the
[33:26] idea of like salvation. I think one of the things that I growing up, the people around me that
[33:34] were also Christian, the idea of salvation had more to do with getting into heaven than like anything else. And
[33:43] so the reason that you would baptize a child is because even though even if someone wasn't Catholic, the belief
[33:52] being if they're not baptized and something happens, heaven forbid, God forbid, they die, then they will then burn for eternity in the pits of hell.
[34:02] And you wouldn't want that to happen to a child, right?
[34:08] I mean, for the Methodists, it's more like the community. We welcome you into the body of Christ, the community.
[34:18] We make that choice for you. You make that choice later. Arguably, even though I think that we also confirm people too young, but it's none of my business.
[34:28] Actually, kind of is. So, I mean, like, it's literally your business.
[34:31] It kind of my little Methodist My Little Methodist professor heart is just glowing at how well you all just talked about that.
[34:39] Thank you.
[34:40] There we go. See, but also one last additional idea is that in the Methodist church, we baptize babies because we believe that baptism
[34:48] is a communal representation of a grace that already exists. So, we don't teach in the United Methodist church that if you don't baptize a baby and they die,
[34:56] they're going to hell. We don't teach that. What we teach is that um the baptism is is a
[35:04] spiritual sacrament for the community and the child being baptized to recognize that pre-existing belovedness and belonging.
[35:13] And you see that I mean you see like um you know we had an infant baptism a few weeks ago in the Loftton. I mean it's
[35:21] that's exactly the way I would describe it to him. The experience of the space and how it really um inspires the
[35:27] community. Uh the next um portion that I want to talk about uh briefly is this notion of what the kingdom of God is.
[35:36] And this is kind of the way we can talk about heaven, right? In terms of what does that mean and what does that look like? Um I think Jesus Jesus I don't
[35:44] think Jesus ministry is fundamentally more concerned with what's actually happening on the ground in your life.
[35:50] Uh, and so I love the expression that Jesus has in Luke 17 about the kingdom of God essentially is within you is how it translates in the in our in our RSV
[35:58] or King James. Um, Luke 17:20. It says, "The Pharisees asked Jesus when God's kingdom was coming." He replied, "God's kingdom isn't coming with signs that are
[36:06] easily noticed. Nor will people say, "Look, here it is. There it is. Don't you see God's kingdom is already among you?" And so people, it goes on,
[36:14] wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. All right.
[36:20] So, you mean to tell me that in the present moment of all of these like
[36:28] cosplay crusaders, these Pete Hegsths, JD Vances who just last week was like, "Well, if what I do brings about the end
[36:36] of the world, then I guess that's just what God want." Like, you mean to tell me that Jesus actually talked about it from his own mouth and it's written down in scriptures?
[36:46] Yeah, babe.
[36:47] Yep. He announced over and over and over again that the kingdom of God is at hand. This is so annoying.
[36:53] And that we don't know the time and the place in terms of like when Yeah. I mean, it's it is annoying. I'm sorry.
[36:58] Like I I uh No one will notice. He says no one will notice. You won't be able to tell.
[37:06] Yeah. But these are white men and they know exactly what's up. So like there's like a confidence there that they know exactly what's happening.
[37:14] coming with the signs that are easily noticed as though the the world being on fire if it's like I'm confusion.
[37:22] Well, and it's not to say you can't find the kingdom of God. I don't think that's what Jesus is saying here because in other places they're asking like how do we know salvation or how what is the
[37:30] greatest commandment? Love your neighbor and love God and love your neighbor. How will we know who our neighbor is? Then we get the good Samaritan story. Like how can I ensure that I'm saved? Sell
[37:39] everything you own and give the money to the poor. Like Jesus actually gives us positive examples of what the kingdom of God looks like when we're living into
[37:47] it, but you have to pay attention. And so he's saying it's not going to be this dramatic thing that the prophets have foretold where clouds descend from the
[37:56] sky and there's pillars of fire and wars. It's no, it's going to be these little simple things that are actually
[38:03] deeply revolutionary. Yeah. Loving each other. And it's going to seem really mundane, but that's actually the point.
[38:10] Yeah. No, I I think that um Julia, yes, your face. I know. I'm like It's like
[38:18] Yeah. to keep sharing sharing and loving and and not seeing each other as um a um
[38:26] a means to an end, but an end in of themselves, right? To use that kind of language, right? To see people as full human beings. And I think that's so
[38:32] critical and it forces us to um take seriously, you know, the first sermon
[38:39] that Jesus has when he comes down um after his time in the wilderness where he talks about um you know in Luke 4 uh
[38:47] essentially how he lists the things again quoting Isaiah that he's coming to abolish the conditions that create hell
[38:53] on earth, right? to release people um the prisoners, give sight to the blind um to usher in the year of the Lord. I
[39:01] think Jesus fundamentally understands that in an imperial domination system, the way in which we can um begin to
[39:11] resist empire like honestly amongst ourselves is to create a community that is fundamentally um doesn't buy into the
[39:20] narrative that we are not um sacred, that we have no value, that that that
[39:28] actually we that God does love us and that we are created in God's image. And when we understand that, we we will care for each other in a way that disrupts
[39:36] this idea that numbs us to our own suffering, right? To no longer be numb to our own suffering, I think is just um
[39:43] fundamentally powerful. Another thing that I think is important is terms of who is included in this kingdom. And I think this is where conservatives,
[39:51] not just conservatives, I think the history of Christianity has continued to struggle with this as did Jesus to be fair, like at times, right? that this
[39:58] idea of continuing to expand the table um was difficult. Uh but I wanted to toss it to um
[40:06] I'm curious where like where expanding the table Jesus struggles with cuz that's a oh that's the story with him
[40:15] Phoenician woman Phoenician woman or the Canaanite woman that he calls a dog. But when he says um you know she's asking for healing for her daughter and he's
[40:23] like you know I've been I'm sitting here for the um my community um and um it's not good to give um the food to the dogs
[40:32] and she's like even the dogs eat the the scraps and it's like it's real it's powerful in as much as I think it
[40:39] speaks to the the way in which a mother you know a parent but in this like this
[40:46] will do what it takes to make sure their kid is actually healed and and and seen as a human being. And I think that that
[40:54] faith in demanding to be included, I think is extremely powerful. Um and
[41:00] Jesus responds, right, and expands um and and so uh I find that to be to be a a really um important story that I
[41:09] consistently return to. But um but yeah, I I know this there's other ways in which we expand it. So I want to toss it to y'all to kind of take on those other points.
[41:18] Well, I was going to say I feel like this is where the historical context is really important
[41:26] because when I'm talking to the teenagers, I feel like every week I'm saying, "No,
[41:37] you actually don't understand how radical Jesus's ministry really was." And I think the idea of actually truly
[41:46] creating community that everyone was a part of the actual practice of really truly seeing God in every person.
[42:00] I think I always think about him touching people and especially like I
[42:07] think a lot of those stories have been obviously very removed from the historical context but almost sanitized
[42:14] in a way that we read them and say oh Jesus is touching a sick man
[42:22] that's so sweet a but it's actually like Jesus was touching people that were,
[42:31] in my understanding, like it was written into the law that you were not supposed to touch them, that you would be dirty, that you would
[42:38] be contaminated, ritually unclean.
[42:44] Yeah. And so ritually unclean. if you touch someone who is ritually unclean, right? As I was I was talking about earlier, how you would have to go to the mikvah to like
[42:52] cleanse yourself after certain events before you could go and pay tribute at the temple or ask for forgiveness at the temple. And so like after your period, a
[43:01] woman would first she had to go be in a tent outside away from her family because no one could touch her and no one could eat anything touched by her
[43:08] because that would make them ritually unclean.
[43:11] like live in a tent in the backyard while you were on your cycle and then you'd have to go when it was done a certain number of days after it was done
[43:19] you'd go and be cleansed in the mikvah and then someone could touch you but if you touch someone say your husband
[43:26] touches you while you're on your cycle on your menstrual cycle you and your husband would have to wait a certain number of days and then go to the mikvah
[43:33] before he could be a part of society as well and so that was the same thing with people who had you know leprosy these skin diseases is um it was the same
[43:42] thing for people who were disabled. Um the the fact that the so the fact that Jesus like touches a hemorrhaging woman who's been hemorrhaging for years is
[43:50] huge because that woman has been forced to live outside of society because she's ritually unclear and no one can touch her or be near her because they also
[43:58] would become truly unclean and then they would have to go through the process of being pure before they could join purified before they could rejoin society and like go about their workday.
[44:09] It does feel removed from history, but it doesn't in a way because all this makes me think of is do you guys remember when Princess Diana held the babies that had AIDS?
[44:21] Yes.
[44:22] And Tammy Fay Tammy Fay shaking hands with AIDS patients on TV.
[44:26] But like, but truly, it feels really insane when you're like, "Oh my gosh, you had to do all of that."
[44:34] But we still see it like that's still there are still
[44:41] stigmas attached with so many things. I mean, why do they argue that people
[44:48] could like if you send your kids to college, they're going to catch the gay or they're going to get transed? Like, it's not true.
[44:56] But we've associated that's going to get clipped and that's why that's why conservatives hate us.
[45:05] We're going to be we're going to be on Fox News again. Anyway, whatever. But you're right, Julia, that like we
[45:12] continue to see very high control ritualistic Christians who are practicing a Christianity about Jesus
[45:20] instead of a Christian Christianity of Jesus treat bodies that are different as unclean and dangerous.
[45:29] But this is where I think the modern version of this does feel very obvious to me.
[45:40] allowing for a room that as as we all love to say, we could all be wrong about everything. But I think that when I
[45:48] think about what who who in the year of our Lord 2026 is treated as untouchable genuinely, who
[45:57] are we speaking about in the ways that it seems like they were speaking about these groups?
[46:05] It feels consistent with, I guess, the groups that we on this podcast feel really called to defend,
[46:13] which is trans people and immigrants and
[46:18] sick people. And I think I get I've heard I've heard like certain push
[46:26] back that is that translating these stories into a modern
[46:34] context is somehow heretical or forcing modern
[46:40] morals onto them. And I think that is just something that I struggle with because but otherwise what's the point?
[46:50] It feels really obvious to me. Well, that's the thing. I'm like there aren't lepers walking around the streets of Los Angeles actually. Like I mean, but
[47:00] there was a huge concentration of men with AIDS in the 1980s and 90s that churches in Los Angeles refused to perform funerals for.
[47:08] So, it's not that big of a stretch.
[47:10] What's that movie that you told me to watch, Julia? That um How to Survive a Plague.
[47:14] That junk messed me up. Like that messed me up. Like you watch that and you just see like just the Yeah. Just the way
[47:24] clergy, I'm only going to talk about clergy. Not even talk about just the way clergy just turned their backs on people
[47:31] in need. I like both was crying and like so angry I could have thrown up like that. like because I'm just like that is
[47:39] fundamentally against everything that I believe our calling is.
[47:43] And those people a lot of those clergy are still here on this planet today. And I do ask I wonder like have they repented and like what does that look
[47:50] like? Like we all get to like keep it pushing and there's prep and like there are all these things like I guess in some way
[47:58] being HIV positive isn't as taboo. I don't know. Um, but
[48:05] these are things that we've all I mean, yeah, we've well, Everest, you just a
[48:12] baby, but like we've all kind of been around for that. It's like you forget about it and then we just like keep it
[48:21] pushing and there isn't time for consideration or true repentance.
[48:27] It's just like everyone for forgives and forgets, I guess. Well, it's also like the way that we treat like the disabled community where we have the opportunity
[48:34] to fix things in our spaces, in the way that we move through the world, and we're just like, well, that's not me.
[48:39] Like, it's less important or we use the idea that things are expensive to upgrade as a reason to not do these things. And it's like this is this is
[48:48] how we are making this community marginalized. And if this happening within a Christian or church context, how much more worse is that given that we have very specific examples that we
[48:57] should be moving in the opposite direction towards affirmation and inclusion?
[49:02] And my friends and I love to say the true lipmus test of how leftist uh Angelino is is how they talk about the unhoused.
[49:11] So I feel like actually we're really hitting all the bases of there are actually a lot of people around us whose
[49:18] bodies we still disregard and oh man unhoused people homeless people are like disdained like if
[49:25] talked about like vermin. Yeah. No it's absolutely the idea of them touch you touching them is like the is horrifying.
[49:36] Every time I drive down Olympic and I get close to Westwood and I see
[49:44] empty warehouses, I'm just like, this makes no sense.
[49:49] Like, there's no reason for us to have people sleeping in front of empty warehouse. Um, thank you. Um,
[49:59] I so appreciate each of y'all adding your context to I think an important topic of drawing this distinction. I'm going to um yeah, we're going to head to a break and then we'll be right back.
[50:10] Thanks for listening to the Progressive Christians podcast. If you are watching on YouTube, please like and subscribe.
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[50:50] back to the show. Welcome back to the Progressive Christians podcast. We are the living neighbor kind of Christians and not the storm of the capital kind.
[50:58] Um, I also before we move into talking about the religion, how we get to religion of Jesus or the religion about Jesus versus religion of Jesus, I want
[51:07] to quickly uh invite any of you who live in the Los Angeles area in or around to come to the loft this Sunday for our
[51:16] annual homecoming gospel concert. Um, it'll be amazing. Um, the singers of soul will be there performing. um they
[51:24] are a um queer all predominantly queer choir and predominantly black choir
[51:31] definitely people of color. It is um amazing. It is amazing and I am looking forward to I mean I always look forward
[51:39] to him being there but it for me it is um a time of profound joy is best I
[51:47] would describe it and and it is um I feel transformed and I I know that it it's an opportunity for people who don't
[51:55] otherwise get to experience church like that which is similar to the church in my childhood at its best um to
[52:04] experience to sacred in that way. So, uh if you live in anywhere in Los Angeles area, uh Sunday 10:30, um I mean, this
[52:12] one actually does start on time. I'll say that. Normally, we don't be starting on time, but this one actually does start on time. So, uh please show up.
[52:18] And um yeah, we we would love to have you. Love to have you. Thank you to Julia. You might even meet your spouse.
[52:24] The singers of soul at homecoming is the reason that I met my wife. So, there you go. It's a good reason to come. There you go.
[52:31] What?
[52:33] We We can't We got time. get that. I thought you knew the story. We can get to I know I know I know the story. But yeah, she she hadn't been to church in over 10
[52:41] years and then was convinced to come for a queer gospel choir and then that's where we met. So incredible.
[52:49] That's amazing.
[52:51] That's amazing. Yeah. So, uh I did I tell you I'm singing on Sunday that I'm singing in the choir? You're singing what? You're singing in the choir?
[52:59] I'm singing with the choir. Yeah. No.
[53:00] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's Yeah. I uh I've been practicing. It'll be This is my life prior to all this stuff. So
[53:08] yeah. No, I'm I'm I'm really excited. So yeah, if you want to come see me make a slight fool of myself, come on Sunday.
[53:16] So I can't believe I'm missing this.
[53:19] Oh, sorry, Julia. I know. I know. I I so um the the pivot that we see get start
[53:28] taking place with respect to how we shift and move from this notion of what Jesus taught versus what the church kind
[53:36] of becomes. It begins obviously after his death, but I Blair I love what you said about Paul in this way in which you
[53:43] see him wrestling with right how do I stay true to the religion of Jesus while also trying to explain what this looks
[53:51] like to people who didn't grow up within a Jewish world view right and it gets crystallized I would say the beginnings
[53:59] of it beginning to be crystallized when um Christianity becomes the religion of empire uh so you have the edict of Milan
[54:06] in 313 um which is an agreement issued by the Roman emperors that establishes um like the toleration for Christianity
[54:14] and all in as a faith within the Roman Empire. And then you have the council of Nika where you have this gathering of
[54:21] Christian bishops um and they basically decide and discuss these major theological ideas to try to have a
[54:29] unified church. Um and both of these are critically important because you see the
[54:36] be Jesus is a again anti-temple like prophet right from the Jewish perspective he's coming in saying we got to get rid of the authority because
[54:44] authority is blocking our access to God and the authority is like yep let's just scoop up that access and let me wrap it in some authority and say here I'm in
[54:52] charge of it so that's so it gets co-opted right and then and then you have Nika where you get to where they get to decide what bishops get to um
[55:01] what think what who gets to decide the kinds of uh theologies that get are acceptable versus not which books are in
[55:09] there versus not and and and because it's already co-opted by empire I would argue how can you trust that is
[55:17] actually I would argue you can tell it's not reflective actually of uh the Jesus movement by what comes out of it right
[55:24] we have so many people that's how we get the sayings of the desert fathers and mothers where they just like leave they're like we're going to the desert, we're we're get because this is not what
[55:33] we were doing, right? Um and and so this is where you be the beginnings of the religion um about Jesus versus the
[55:41] religion of Jesus because prior to the edict of Milan, it's illegal to be Christian in the Roman Empire. It's a violation of your
[55:49] Roman citizenship because in the Roman tradition, Caesar is God. Caesar is the representation of the divine. And so
[55:57] anything that undercuts or claims that Caesar is not God, such as God is God and maybe even Jesus is a representation
[56:05] of God or is God like that would be a violation of your citizenship and punishable by death, which is, you know,
[56:12] we see in the Acts of the Apostles that folks are being killed for defending the
[56:22] kingdom of God and the way of Jesus. And so the way of Jesus, the Christians are an underground movement trying to form
[56:30] these little micro communities of justice and mutual care and they are chased down and pushed out by the Roman
[56:39] government until Constantine who is the emperor has this uh transformational
[56:45] encounter with Christ supposedly and then it becomes an official religion of the hierarchy who's invited to the
[56:54] council of Na the people the emperor wants to have there think should be there. No women.
[57:01] Um and then it goes a step further in the edict edict of Thessalonica in 380 where the previous religions of the
[57:09] Roman Empire are eliminated and Christianity is now the religion of the Roman Empire. And in the
[57:18] same way that the Roman Empire was imposing their way of life around the entirety of the empire, they start imposing what they call Christianity,
[57:27] which is a very much a religion about Jesus around the entire world.
[57:34] And this is where I kind of get lost because so many people, especially where I attend school right now, are very
[57:42] attached to the idea of the inherency of scripture. And this is the moment where it all starts to fall apart for me
[57:49] because how can you say that? And like the belief that every person that was
[57:56] involved in the council of Nika and who wasn't, that's just how God wanted it.
[58:02] And so you have to believe exactly what it says because it's inherent because it's all God's divinity.
[58:11] But it's the same argument about translations. It's every even though we have a translation that is literally called the King James version.
[58:21] I wonder if there was any political motivation there. People say that the translations themselves were also done
[58:31] divinely inspired directly. There cannot be any error in that. There can't be any error in the councils. There can't be
[58:38] any error in the selection of texts because Okay. But it wasn't even the council of
[58:45] Nika who created this idea of biblical inherency that comes like much much much much later in history.
[58:51] Yeah. Yeah. And but weren't they the I could be wrong.
[58:56] They put together didn't isn't that where they like finalized the scriptures of this is what's going in this is
[59:04] what's going out and then if you don't believe these four things three things then you're inheriting the council of Nika was where we lost
[59:12] the gospel of Mary and the okay yeah it is and where they defined heresy like you if you you have to believe these three
[59:19] things and in this scripture otherwise you can be Christian those are the only things certainly they put boundaries on on it. They canonized it. They said this
[59:27] is what's official and this is what's heretical. They created those like sort of lines in the sand of what is Christian and what's not Christian. So
[59:34] that is happening. But the idea of biblical inherency and biblical literalism that's not active at the Council of Na.
[59:42] But but you're right. I think but what I think you just kind of gesture towards which I think is actually really helpful in terms of even blur what you said about you have to believe these things
[59:50] and and I think it's also helpful to draw a distinction between believing that versus believing in so they get into this real nuance conversation with
[59:58] the um the nine creed about like do you believe Jesus is the same substance of all and it's like all this it's like this doesn't even like what's Jesus
[1:00:07] talking about substances like you know it gets really in the weeds right about particular kind of beliefs. Uh and when
[1:00:15] I say believe that, I mean like believe that these things happen versus believing in a way of life, right?
[1:00:21] Believing in a way of life, a way of living uh a spiritual path of radical compassion, right? And and when you start diverging from believing in a way
[1:00:30] of life versus you have to believe that these particular statements about God are true, that's when you start to miss the plot. And I think and that continues
[1:00:38] on. I think you see this um before we get to um this idea of inherency I think you can even stop at St. Francis right
[1:00:45] you see the beginnings of Christianom in a way in which this kind of romanization of Christianity gets spread and says well it has to conform to this kind of
[1:00:53] understanding that supports power and you get St. Francis is like you've like fundamentally you you you've missed it
[1:01:00] like you have misunderstood what Jesus has said which is why he gives away all his stuff um and has I I mean the most
[1:01:09] profound understanding of the sacred in everything right when you have someone talking about like talking about the
[1:01:17] animals talking about the moon like with another person who is like with women like and saying women have the same kind of authority that I have that has a a
[1:01:26] woman in his inner circle that he calls brother Yakoba, right? Like it is amazing how we have again sanitized St.
[1:01:35] Francis to just being like, "Oh, he talks to animals without looking at just the radical nature of his I mean he is like probably one among the closest
[1:01:43] approximations to Jesus since Jesus like like since the actual since the OG Jesus, right? like you know like it is
[1:01:51] amazing and and I think he stands as this critique because the church was starting to collapse on the weight of its own um
[1:01:59] uh corruption. St. Francis I argue would come in and kind of begins to redeem it.
[1:02:04] I I don't know Blair if you would agree with that with respect to reformation. I think there's a little bit of stuff happening with indulgences. One might say it was beginning to come.
[1:02:13] Yeah. This is so much the cycle then of Christianity is after. So I wouldn't say Paul corrupted Christianity, right? What
[1:02:21] we see in Paul is struggling with how do we follow the religion of Jesus uh in a new place where the religion of Jesus,
[1:02:29] the way of life of Jesus doesn't make any sense to the people who are hearing about it. But I think absolutely Christrysendom is the first full-on
[1:02:38] corruption of Christianity where it becomes an impositional belief structure with winners and losers and in and out
[1:02:47] that does not resemble the religion of Jesus, the practices of Jesus. And then Christian history is just like cycles of
[1:02:56] the church continuing to double down on the religion about Jesus and that then gets corrupted and used by people for
[1:03:04] things that have nothing to do with Jesus. And then movements that come in to try and revive the religion of Jesus and and the way of Christ within the
[1:03:12] church. And that it just happens over and over and over again in cycles like we we overcorrect and then have to recorrect
[1:03:21] and overcorrect and have to recorrect o just over and over and over again.
[1:03:25] I mean it is a cycle of the prophets I would say actually. Um I I think to get to the points that y'all were making
[1:03:32] earlier. So we talk about we can say I would say St. Francis probably the reformation and then you get to early
[1:03:40] 20th century the beginnings of the fundamentalist movement. And so Julia, this is what I want to say with respect to this idea of biblical innerrancy. Like
[1:03:46] this is where it starts. Like it is very very recent. Like the idea of innerrancy would have sounded crazy to early
[1:03:55] Christians. Like they would have been like this is not how we read anything like you know. But so you have this um the beginnings of the fundamentalist
[1:04:03] movement in the early 20th century. Um and it was crystallized by this book series called the fundamentals. um
[1:04:11] the 20th century between 1910 and 195.
[1:04:14] Yeah, babe. Biblical innerrancy is brand new, brand new, but it's treated as if it's original to the to the Christian experience.
[1:04:22] 100% 100%. And these are can be described as the bedrock points of evangelical orthodoxy. And so um various
[1:04:31] kind of like five points that they come up with which is like um biblical inherency, the virgin birth, substitutionary atonement, bodily resurrection and the and like the
[1:04:39] historicity of miracles like they were this was created to push back against the like social gospel movement of like
[1:04:47] ration bush uh who I think was a was a professor at Union. um basically people who are arguing that um about trying to institute the religion of Jesus, right?
[1:04:56] About how we're supposed to engage the world um be people who are doing healing and repair work rather than about um
[1:05:05] belief that certain things happened and and um and also saying that these your
[1:05:13] Christianity is dependent upon how you if you or do not believe in these beliefs. Uh and so the project developed
[1:05:20] this the fundamentals, right? This big um huge project to make this theological academic argument because at the time
[1:05:28] people who were quote unquote fundamentalists were considered uneducated. It was it started it was funded by a billion well but now we would call him a billionaire but a
[1:05:36] wealthy person. He was a billionaire relative to the time I guess one might say the guy who started Biola which is a university out here. uh Lyman Stewart,
[1:05:44] he mobilized a network of like conservative evangelical writers to like basically um create this series uh of
[1:05:52] theological books that would defend some of those doctrines that I made that I just named that he called like traditional Christian values. And so
[1:06:00] like even like so the idea that it just emerged out of nowhere is is it's like the Heritage Foundation. It's like this exact same thing, right? You have some
[1:06:08] wealthy wealthy conservative. It's like I'm gonna pay all these other people to to to create something I believe to be true because this is the way it ought to
[1:06:16] be and this is how you be get you get the beginnings of fundamentalism.
[1:06:21] We're going to make it seem like it's a grassroots movement of sudden belief and revival, but absolutely there was money behind it and intentionality and
[1:06:29] planning just like there is with project 2025, the tradife movement, all sorts of other things we're seeing happen now.
[1:06:36] And so like to me these things are really obviously man what's the word I want to look for I
[1:06:45] guess angry isn't even the right word. I think what comes up for me is that the way in which as Wesley said it's
[1:06:52] discussed like it is ancient when there is a clear history that it's not like when you have the Chicago statements
[1:07:00] that you know I know I'm skipping ahead but to the 80s like these are the statements are like these are the core quotequote evangelical things you have
[1:07:07] to believe now you know it's still done with I think there's like a handful of women and like maybe a couple of people of color out of like 300 scholars that
[1:07:15] say these are the statements that define what it means to be evangelical and you're trying to define that like even if you want to say these are the smartest most brilliant white people
[1:07:24] like men in the world you're still like because you narrowed who can be there you're still missing important like
[1:07:33] context you're still missing the full body of Christ you're still missing the full body of Christ right you just got like you know maybe a hand I don't even know like you like there's all this
[1:07:41] other stuff you're missing because you have decided that uh you've prioritized your own self-nowledge and what you want
[1:07:48] over and against an actual inclusive gospel that actually takes seriously the the contributions of other scholars and
[1:07:55] other ways of interpreting. Um, and so I think that is something that's just we need to state because that I think is
[1:08:05] how we get to the point where we are right now where the religion about Jesus becomes the norm, seen as the norm. I think the thing that comes to mind for
[1:08:12] me is that like if we start citing that it was around the councils where we really sort of see this combining of empire and Christianity and this sort of
[1:08:21] concretizing of the religion about Jesus for me it becomes very difficult to dig ourselves out of that and I know that's
[1:08:29] what we're trying to do but it's like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years of inculturation and
[1:08:37] meaning making that gets adopted into cultures and peoples and then it's just like so like the task is big and that's the that's the thing that's like coming to mind as as we're talking about this.
[1:08:47] Well, I was going to say is that this conversation is helping me to understand because you know how I'm always like I don't know what people mean when they're
[1:08:55] like we have to tell people about Jesus and I'm like what about like I don't this disconnect between
[1:09:04] like not just behaviors and like a list of things you shouldn't do but the way
[1:09:11] that you consider how you show up in the world And like this like you just we got to
[1:09:20] talk more about Jesus and that doesn't how it feels that when people say that which I hear a lot of people say these
[1:09:27] days it feels so empty and like hollow like it doesn't feel resonant and when I ask people what that means they're like
[1:09:34] well I I said this you got to let Jesus into your heart and I'm like I don't know what that means. Um, but this because you never let Jesus in your
[1:09:42] heart. That's why that's why you don't to me, Julie. It is definitely.
[1:09:46] It is definitely. And like I'm like, how do I do it? Like is there like a ritual? There's a prayer you can do.
[1:09:54] Yeah. But I've done that and it apparently hasn't worked right. Um, but it helps me to understand what this
[1:10:03] disconnect is and like where it kind of comes from. The fact that the idea of innerrancy is like yesterday years old is wild. Like wild.
[1:10:17] And yes, it also still makes my skin crawl. The idea that like Well, yeah, of course women weren't there and it was just white men, but
[1:10:25] that's because that's really what God wanted. It like makes me want to puke.
[1:10:30] Yeah. I mean, I think that again, like given the context we're in right now, even in the 80s, that should have seemed
[1:10:37] in insane to do something like that. And so, and it helps us understand how you
[1:10:44] get to a religion about Jesus that comes up a definition of sin that is about a
[1:10:52] list of rules that you can create to justify your positions and power. this a religion about Jesus that looks at
[1:10:59] repentance as and I would say repentance and salvation as transactional, right?
[1:11:04] Where repentance isn't really about being transformed, right?
[1:11:08] Purely individual. That's really important too.
[1:11:11] Exactly. And this notion of the kingdom of God can't be that that it is not about anything to do with like um public
[1:11:19] like anything to do with anybody else, right? It's all about again yourself and something that is to come rather than what's actually happening on the ground,
[1:11:26] right? And so when you understand how like for them you have to change those core concepts for what they create to
[1:11:34] make sense. Um and and so a literal interpretation of the Bible allows you to do that. And so this is when you get people like, you know, like I get I am
[1:11:42] annoyed the way people talk about Billy Graham and lift him up in a particular way. I'm like he was around during all kinds of crazy stuff in Jim Crow. I
[1:11:50] wasn't saying not a word. Not a word. If you can't show up on March on Washington and actually say these people deserve human rights.
[1:11:58] Yeah, you could.
[1:12:01] I Yeah, there you go. There you go. Cuz I'm like I just uh between that and when you get to the moral majority, which
[1:12:08] eventually I think becomes MAGA, you really get this cleareyed,
[1:12:14] you know, um Christian fascism that is just obvious, right? Not even trying to hide who it is. That's just obvious and that's what makes it popular. I think
[1:12:23] that's what makes me it's not obvious to them inside of it apparently.
[1:12:28] Well, because it's it is easier to maintain again psychology tells us maintaining your beliefs feels safer to
[1:12:37] our brains and bodies than challenging our beliefs. And Wesley, what you said about you start to unpack this and realize this goes all the way back to
[1:12:44] Christendom under Constantine in 313 or 3:25 and it starts to feel like, oh, just throw the whole baby out with the
[1:12:52] bath water. Like this is not worth saving. And that is terrifying to people, particularly people to people
[1:13:00] from high control religious spaces, but also particularly to people who are using that high control religion to get what they want and order the world in
[1:13:08] the way they want. And so they will fight, right? They will fight any kind of
[1:13:15] historical recollection of how these things have come to be because the historical
[1:13:22] context challenges the way we operate now.
[1:13:27] And they they will do anything to control the story because they can't let the framework that maintains their control
[1:13:36] collapse. and the history challenges that framework.
[1:13:42] I think that this is a great place to end to set us up for we talking about next week as next week we're going to be discussing like the church we're trying
[1:13:50] to build right now. Like what does it mean for us to go through this process of um unlearning um a process of of
[1:13:57] deconstruction to building something new um ostensibly being able to articulate why I we still identify well I still
[1:14:05] identify as a Christian. I want to be care about it. You know, those of us who do.
[1:14:08] Those of us who do because because again, you're there's a reason why I'm not throwing the baby out with a bath water, I guess, so to speak. I don't like that metaphor,
[1:14:16] but I get the point. Or was it not not metaphor analogy? It's just that's kind of weird.
[1:14:20] I know. You said you don't want to throw babies. I'm like, because it should be insane. None of us should want to throw babies.
[1:14:25] That's that's actually why I think the metaphor works. I'm like, it's like that's that's weird. But anyway, okay. All right. Good news.
[1:14:34] Uh I um did not I heard about this a couple of days ago. Uh my my best friend was visiting was telling me about the
[1:14:42] maps in uh the United Nations how they uh approved um the like redrawing of
[1:14:49] maps. So they actually are accurate to the size of the different continents and how Africa I knew Africa had been made smaller but I thought for some reason I thought they had fixed this. I don't
[1:14:58] know, but I thought that happened when I was a kid, but apparently maybe they slightly fixed it, but they didn't like fully fix because we had the episode of the West Wing where we were all taught that we
[1:15:06] needed to fix the map so that it accurately represents, you know, the roundness of the planet and not like a compressed flat version.
[1:15:16] Yep. But we didn't actually fix it.
[1:15:18] That was just Aaron Sorcin just thought made us think we did.
[1:15:22] Yep. Maybe maybe that's what it was. But it when you actually look at it, when you look at it, I was like, man, Africa is huge. I was like, it it's
[1:15:30] Africa. I was like, this man, this is crazy.
[1:15:33] It's almost like all the rest broke off of it. And uh it's almost like they all used to be one and that was the one.
[1:15:41] Pangia, don't talk about that, Julia.
[1:15:45] The world exactly as it's supposed to be with the United States in the center, Europe as a continent, right? Yeah.
[1:15:54] But the UN is trying to fix it. We'll link it in the show notes. There's a growing map on there that like shows you how we've been depicting Africa and
[1:16:02] South America and then how we're going to start depicting it now. And I'm here for it. I think that's beautiful.
[1:16:07] Oh, no. It's it's definitely it's it's definitely amazing. And of course, United States was the only country to vote against it because, you know, the only one the only one.
[1:16:17] Oh man, we are on the right wrong side of history too often. Uh but hey, good the good news is that we didn't have enough
[1:16:25] power to overturn it. So, good news. All right. Well, uh thank you all for joining us for the Progressive Christians podcast. The Progressive Christians podcast is the ministry of
[1:16:32] the loft worship community of West William Methodist Church. Uh if you'd like to connect with us and be a part of the conversation, you can find us on all social media platforms at the
[1:16:40] ProgressiveChristians. And if you have any questions or comments, we love to hear from you. Please send us an email.
[1:16:45] Um our email address is progressivechristians@theloftla.org.
[1:16:49] Our show is mixed and edited by our wonderful audio engineer, Sahi. Uh, if you like the show, please rate, review, share, subscribe, all that good stuff.
[1:16:57] And we will see youall next week. Bye bye.