Niki Madison-Woodburn: A Like Is Not the Same as a Hug

Diversity headline numbers get people in the door, but they say nothing about who gets developed, who gets useful feedback, and who moves up. Niki Madison-Woodburn, Senior Talent Management & Inclusion Program Manager at Lattice, works on the systems behind that gap, looking at the whole employee lifecycle so growth is clear and measurable. She talks with Ashley Russo about the people plus AI approach at Lattice, a quarterly storytelling activation that builds common ground across teams, managing anxiety by silencing the noise, and the company kickoff moment when a colleague told her she saw Niki light up like never before.

Chapters:

00:00 Welcome to Ask Ashley

00:43 Meet Niki Madison-Woodburn

01:40 Where owning your uniqueness took root

03:05 Curiosity and the move from customer success

04:12 Priorities across your 20s, 30s and now

06:36 When the work got hard and finding the spark again

08:07 Past headline numbers to equitable systems

09:34 Looking at the whole employee lifecycle

10:12 People plus AI and solving the real problem

12:11 Building common ground through storytelling

14:17 Grounding yourself, anxiety and silencing the noise

16:04 The company kickoff moment she lit up

19:07 Helping others past their hesitation

21:22 What she would pause and what she would accelerate

23:17 Advice to her younger self

You can follow Niki Madison-Woodburn here:

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/niki-madison/

Learn more about Lattice:

Website - https://lattice.com

What is Ask Ashley?

In Ask Ashley, Founder, Thoughtleader and award-winning media personality Ashley Russo sits down with leaders who bring purpose and humanity to business.

Each episode explores how people navigate uncertainty, lead with empathy, and create meaningful change in their organizations and lives. Listeners gain practical insights on resilience, leadership, and financially confident decision-making amid disruption.

This podcast is brought to you by Ask Ashley. If you’re interested in building a confident, purpose-driven wealth plan, reach out to Ashley at [e-mail].

00:00:01:12 - 00:00:29:21
Ashley
Welcome to Ask Ashley, the podcast, where we shine a light on the unsung heroes of the workplace. I'm your host, Ashley Russo, financial AI board member, thought leader and wealth management advisor. Each week we sit down with inspiring leaders, exploring their journeys, motivations, and the real challenges they face from job and security to the evolving role of AI in a world where many feel overlooked.

00:00:29:22 - 00:00:43:05
Ashley
These guests are building hope and connection for their colleagues. Join us as we uncover their stories and discover how they're making a difference. One conversation at a time.

00:00:43:07 - 00:01:01:14
Ashley
Hi, everybody. Ashley Russo here with just such a dynamic, incredible human, Miss Niki. I'm going to have her introduce herself. But if you happen if you can just picture the most fabulous color pink and just the coolest outfit, that's what I get to look at. And if you please, introduce yourself.

00:01:01:16 - 00:01:29:01
Niki
Yes. Thank you. First off, love an outfit. Shout out and recognition. I'm Niki Madison-Woodburn. I am the senior talent management and inclusion program manager at Lattice. And some might say that I am a professional. People notice her. I'm really passionate about helping folks understand what makes them special, unique and great, and helping them learn how to grow from there.

00:01:29:03 - 00:01:40:11
Niki
I am a queer black woman partner mama to adorable toddlers, and I live in Chicago.

00:01:40:12 - 00:01:54:06
Ashley
Love it, love it, love it. You said something there that I want to dig into right away. Encouraging people to really own what makes them unique. Where did that belief first take root for you?

00:01:54:08 - 00:02:24:10
Niki
Yeah, that's a great question. Thanks for asking. I think personally, for me, that took root when someone noticed me. I was very, very lucky to have support from an early age. I, you know, it was noticed that I was intellectually gifted, and I feel like going into this gifted program, I had my parents, I had community influences, and I had teachers that saw something in me, and they kept encouraging it.

00:02:24:11 - 00:02:57:17
Niki
So I think that's where that comes from. And then to add, I was a black girl who grew up in a predominantly white space. So my parents always reinforced the awareness that I have something powerful, and not everyone is granted the same opportunities that I have. And so I think really acknowledging that and harnessing that awareness led me to do what I do day in and day out.

00:02:57:19 - 00:03:05:06
Ashley
How has that that curiosity really shaped the career path that you've taken.

00:03:05:08 - 00:03:38:07
Niki
Yeah I think I just really genuinely like people. I think people, individual people, groups of people, cultures are so interesting. And so I think just having that curiosity about what makes people grow, learn, move in the way that they do in the world, has influenced me to bring this into my work. And I started out as a customer success manager when I went into the tech industry.

00:03:38:11 - 00:04:05:16
Niki
And I think in helping customers, that was great. I really liked helping our customers, but I was doing a lot of work forming ARGs, working in the and a lot of cross-functional work. And so working with customers didn't kind of give me that opportunity to, like, work in a space that I lived in. You know, you hung up on that call and it was like, okay, that customer is going to go do what they do.

00:04:05:17 - 00:04:11:23
Niki
But I really wanted to make things more efficient and help out where I exist in my own space.

00:04:12:01 - 00:04:34:04
Ashley
I love that I love that you. You said something that stuck with me in our prep call that I'd love to unpack that. You know what you prioritize in your 20s was different than your 30s and, you know, different again now. I think we all kind of go through that, that cycle. So I'd love to hear your perspective on that and the expense you have to give yourself along the way.

00:04:34:06 - 00:04:56:10
Niki
Yeah, absolutely. I think in my 20s, what motivated me was very different than what motivates me now. I think it was just finding out how to do work. I had to find out what I liked, what I didn't like, and I had to build from there. I'd say my 30s was I had found something that I enjoyed doing.

00:04:56:12 - 00:05:18:02
Niki
I was starting to really harness those skills, but it was also an opportunity for me, since I was growing in my profession to gain more exposure to the world. So I really utilized those generous PTO packages that some companies have, and I would try to get abroad, like at least once a quarter. I'm not even like being facetious.

00:05:18:03 - 00:05:41:19
Niki
Like my partner and I would end up on a plane as much as we could. We would work from wherever we could. And so that was really the focus of my 30s is just like cultural explore exploration and really like immersing myself in what I could learn about the world. And now I think through it all, I realized that I am very much motivated by.

00:05:41:21 - 00:06:03:17
Niki
I love getting to the next level, I love growing, I love learning. But now I'm like, all of that needs to come together. It's not about putting myself in these like different spaces or containers. It's about finding joy in my work, finding joy with my family and my kids, laughing along the way and making it really cohesive.

00:06:03:18 - 00:06:09:11
Niki
So that's where I am now. Like really finding that grounding and cohesion.

00:06:09:12 - 00:06:36:23
Ashley
I love that, and I love the call out to that journey that things shift and change. And, you know, as long as we shift and change with, you know, all of that, we can get ourselves into potentially different experiences and we can get ourselves into different moments that ultimately build up who we are. I love that call out you also, the work that you do obviously is clearly very rewarding, but it's also tough, right?

00:06:36:23 - 00:06:49:05
Ashley
You're pouring from your cup to fill up someone else's cup. Was there a period in time where this work was hard, and how did you find your spark again? If so.

00:06:49:07 - 00:07:08:09
Niki
Yeah, I think this work can be hard. And in the different transitions that you mentioned, it's been different moments. You know, there was the moment of when I was doing CSM work and I felt like it was very metrics driven, like have as many calls in a day as you can, and that is what you have to do.

00:07:08:11 - 00:07:36:22
Niki
And that's one way to work. And that may work for some folks, but that's not my favorite way to work. I wasn't solution for my customer as well. In the moments where I'm rushing through a call to get on another one, I'm not really taking time to problem solving meet my customers needs. So in that transition, I think that led me to, okay, I have to give myself permission to admit that I do like helping folks, but maybe not in this capacity.

00:07:37:02 - 00:07:57:08
Niki
So I had to let go a little bit of like, you've done this. Yes, I'm work for a while, but now you want to move on to something else to move into my work on inclusion and talent management. It's the abs and flows and those transitions of like allowing yourself to almost become something else. To relearn, to fail, to try to keep moving on.

00:07:57:10 - 00:08:07:11
Niki
That has gotten me to the point where I am now still helping folks, but it's always key. But doing it in different ways and allowing yourself to explore that.

00:08:07:12 - 00:08:25:09
Ashley
So with that trajectory, you know, you spoke about pivoting away from diversity headline numbers towards really leaning in and helping people towards their own career trajectory. So I'm curious, what is that shift look like in practicality?

00:08:25:11 - 00:09:06:19
Niki
Yeah, I want to be very, very clear in that the numbers still matter. Representation matters. But I think there are things that are more important than just having the number of people in a space or, you know, looking at the space for what is how are our numbers looking out visually or on paper? I'm interested in getting to that next step of really like, okay, we have these numbers in the door, but who is getting developed, who's getting good, meaningful feedback that can lead to productive action?

00:09:06:21 - 00:09:23:17
Niki
How are we thinking about that? And I think that when we start to think about the systems and the opportunities, that breaks down, that headline numbers into our processes, really equitable, and that's what I'm interested in.

00:09:23:19 - 00:09:34:06
Ashley
So it sounds like you really feel it's the processes that help people improve, which I love. Can you impact that a little bit more for us?

00:09:34:07 - 00:09:59:08
Niki
Yeah. Yeah, sure. I think it's not just the processes, it's the people as well. And understanding the whole system, like looking at every part of the employee lifecycle to understand how are we helping people get to the next goal. Is there clarity? Do people truly understand how they're being evaluated? Again, are people getting that feedback and how are we measuring that?

00:09:59:08 - 00:10:12:21
Niki
Always examining the holistic system is something that I'm really interested in to make sure it's all working together effectively. I think that's how you get teams and that's how you get a successful business.

00:10:12:23 - 00:10:40:00
Ashley
Yeah, yeah, potentially a successful world, right? I mean, that's interesting. If we can all take that into so many parts of our lives. I love that. So speaking of the world, there's obviously a tension between technology in the human experience. How do you approach that, that tension when it comes to AI in the integration? I'd love to get your viewpoint there.

00:10:40:02 - 00:11:08:14
Niki
Yeah. Hot topic. It's everywhere we're in invaded with messaging about AI. And I think for me, it really comes back to where we've kind of put our flag in the sand at Lattice is that we're thinking about people plus AI. I think we have to understand the problems that we're trying to fix before we turn to technology to fix the problem.

00:11:08:18 - 00:11:34:23
Niki
We have to slow down to go fast, right? Like we have to slow down and be like, what am I solving? What is this, a fix for? Personal example. I was tasked the other day with like automating a process around our performance review. Just review completion. Very simple. I can log into the product and I can see a review completion, but it's a little manual and pulling it by division, by department, etc..

00:11:35:03 - 00:11:58:04
Niki
And so someone asked, well, can you automate that with AI? And in my process of trying to like build a skill to do this, I realized that it already taken me like 15 or 20 minutes and I'm like, well, I can use my human judgment to go in and pull some metrics and like two minutes. Like, you know, why are we over, you know, overbuilding to solve a very simple problem.

00:11:58:05 - 00:12:11:03
Niki
And I think that's the lens that we have to look at with AI is like, what are we really solving for? And does it need to be automated? That's the approach that I like to bring to this work.

00:12:11:05 - 00:12:29:14
Ashley
I think that's healthy. I love that I think that's incredibly healthy. So with that tension, with really making sure we have a level playing field, how do you then create a sense of common ground within a team?

00:12:29:16 - 00:12:48:16
Niki
Yeah, that's really important. I think I have to give credit where credit is due to the rest of our talent development team. I think our L and D team does really well at like grounding us in some team effectiveness sessions where we look at work styles and we look at the way that teams communicate to help them get that grounding.

00:12:48:16 - 00:13:16:12
Niki
And then I think from my like, inclusion and culture stamps, I've worked with our ears to build this like storytelling activation. It's an organ activation where we have a theme quarterly, and folks are allowed to come and tell their story if they choose to. It's kind of a tap system where people are nominated because someone in the company says, I want to know your story, and then they can choose to accept or not.

00:13:16:13 - 00:13:39:07
Niki
But I think that's been huge for creating this culture of real, acceptance and vulnerability. You can bring in personal stories, you can bring in professional stories, but it's really like we all started somewhere. We're not all, you know, the best of the best of the best. We have to learn. We have to grow to get there. And that's so important to me in creating that common ground.

00:13:39:07 - 00:13:56:00
Niki
Once we have that culture established, I think it's easier for people to be like, okay, I see myself in this colleague. Even though we have difference, I can see a bit of their story in my story. Let's get to work. And that's what I really wanted to create with that activation.

00:13:56:02 - 00:14:17:03
Ashley
You come across in our previous conversations and in this conversation as incredibly grounded, I believe I've said that to you, at least I hope I have. You come across as incredibly grounded. How do you ground yourself in order to be this presence for others?

00:14:17:05 - 00:14:24:12
Niki
That's a great question. I'd like to say.

00:14:24:13 - 00:14:56:16
Niki
Humility. I'd like to say that I am someone who just very recently, like, was diagnosed with anxiety, did not know I life that that was going on. And I realized that there were things that were leading to that anxiety. We are so inundated with stimuli like constantly our phones, our laptops, someone in the other room. My partner also works from home, so he's making coffee in the kitchen right by my office.

00:14:56:19 - 00:15:28:23
Niki
You know, we have. We're being told what to think, what to listen to, what to read, what to watch. All the time we're being influenced. And so I'm a bit proponent of the silencing the noise, stepping away to ground myself in silence, because I think that silence really gives us space to think. It's like when you have a problem and you've been at your computer all day and you just cannot find the solve, and then you go out for a walk and you're like, oh, or if you're in the shower and you, like, take a minute to calm down and you're like, oh man, that's what I'm going to do.

00:15:28:23 - 00:15:38:15
Niki
That's the solve. I really think we have to find those moments of just solitude and peace to really ground ourselves. And I try to live by that, to calm myself down.

00:15:38:17 - 00:16:04:09
Ashley
I think that when there's so much going on, as you said right now, in this moment in time, there was a beautiful call out for all of us taking a note for a friend right now, myself. That's great. So you also said that when you focus on what makes you feel healthy and happy and joyous, your personal and professional life really starts to come together.

00:16:04:11 - 00:16:14:16
Ashley
Can you, you know, unpack that a little bit for us? Can you share a moment, maybe when you felt that come together and the impact that has then both on your personal and professional life?

00:16:14:18 - 00:16:34:18
Niki
Yeah. The one that comes to mind most recently, it would probably be a moment in, I think it was our, our company kick off this year. And I'm like I said, I'm in Chicago, and I had to travel to San Francisco for a company kickoff. And, you know, I've got a three year old and a 20 month old.

00:16:34:18 - 00:17:00:11
Niki
So they were a little bit younger at the time. And I leave my partner for five days to go do this. So you're a little like, distracted, right. And then, you know, I have some anxiety about being there and the way that I show up. I love being around people, but I am one of those introverted extroverts. So it's like or extroverted introvert, which ever way you want to say it?

00:17:00:12 - 00:17:20:05
Niki
I am one of those. So it was a moment of real, like being conflicted in my hotel room ahead of the first day of us being at company kickoff, and I had that moment where I literally did some power poses, and I was like, girl, you have worked hard. Your ERG leaders have worked hard on their activations.

00:17:20:07 - 00:17:51:00
Niki
You belong here. You belong to taking up space in this environment. You people deserve to see how hard you work. People deserve to see you shine. So like I said, it did my power poses and I went down to our company kickoff and I really enjoyed myself. I learned I leaned into like getting to know people that I've never met before, don't have much time talking to some of the teams that work at Lattice, and I really just threw myself in it to it wholeheartedly.

00:17:51:05 - 00:18:15:21
Niki
You know, I called my kids after I explained to them a little bit about what happened. So it's, you know, pulling that thread of like, I am a wife, I am a mother, I am a person who does the job that I do. But it can all coalesce. And I'd say that the biggest reward was hearing someone who literally was on, like the hiring committee that brought me to this company say that she saw me light up in a way she'd never seen me before.

00:18:15:21 - 00:18:44:12
Niki
She saw me shine at company kickoff. And that was so meaningful because I'm like, okay, it's working. Like I didn't let my insecurities or my anxiety like, take up too much space and just, you know, leaned into like, just be yourself. Just be who you are and really immerse yourself in the experience. And so that's was a pivotal moment, I think, at this company, I think for my trajectory and career at this company, it's I've seen myself grow.

00:18:44:12 - 00:18:49:08
Niki
I've seen myself take on more opportunities since then. So that was a really pivotal moment..

00:18:49:10 - 00:19:07:00
Ashley
With that pivotal moment, I'm curious, you also then turn that light and you shine it on others. So for someone else going through the experience, how do you then address their hesitation?

00:19:07:02 - 00:19:27:08
Niki
Yeah, I think it's really going to come back to storytelling again and just understanding their why. It's funny that you say that because at that moment, our CEO told me to stand up for recognition, and I stood up for like, two seconds and I sat back down really quickly. And then I started thinking about that moment, and it's like I didn't.

00:19:27:11 - 00:19:57:14
Niki
It's not that I wasn't appreciative of the recognition, it's just that so much of it was for ERG work. And in that moment I realized, like, it's not about me. Like this is about the folks who have been doing the boots on the ground work to really get our culture running successfully. And so that was my why. And I spoke that I spoke about that in a LinkedIn post, like, because I felt so silly for just like my quickness and hesitation to sit down or hesitation to stand up.

00:19:57:18 - 00:20:18:00
Niki
But I was thinking about my why. And I think that's what you have to do for folks. You always have to think of like, okay, I've seen this person like shy away from certain opportunities and I've seen them literally seen them light up in other moments and asking them about that and then finding additional opportunities for them to do that.

00:20:18:00 - 00:20:41:02
Niki
Okay, I see you come to life when you are speaking on an all hands, how can we get you in front of another audience? Or I see you really breaking down processes and wanting to move them forward thoughtfully and working cross functionally to do that. How do we set you up for more success there and then taking the opportunity to really, like, have them bring that evidence to other folks?

00:20:41:02 - 00:21:00:11
Niki
Did you maybe you know about your art work? Are you writing this in your performance review? Like just creating that through line for other people is what makes me feel really successful and makes it me feel like I'm having an impact and that I'm showcasing someone else's success as well.

00:21:00:12 - 00:21:22:08
Ashley
So many, so many good nuggets here that are so a political applicable for and not only our professional lives, but our personal lives too. Why does this motivate me? Why does it not motivate me? I mean, that's that's such an important call out. I'm curious, taking this a step further, there's so much going on in the world, obviously right now.

00:21:22:10 - 00:21:38:00
Ashley
If you could hit pause on one thing, what would that be? And on the same in the same vein, other side of the coin, if you can accelerate something, what would that be?

00:21:38:02 - 00:22:04:22
Niki
That's a good question. Hitting pause again, I think I would just hit pause on some of the noise. Like I just think it's too much. I feel like there are a lot of distractions that are causing division, and it's not enjoyable anymore. Like it used to be fun to get on social media and just kind of see what folks are up to.

00:22:05:04 - 00:22:29:21
Niki
But seeing all the division like, I dare not go into a comment section these days, but seeing that I think that's what I would hit pause on is like that. That distraction, that noise, that division, that just like inherent ugliness. Because I feel like there's still a lot of good in the world, and I don't feel like that's being brought to the top of our algorithm.

00:22:29:23 - 00:23:00:10
Niki
So that's what I would say. I would accelerate, I would accelerate this return to what do I want to say? I'm not anti-technology, but it would be nice to take some time off and just return to more holistic, more natural things. A like is not the same as a hug. A like is not the same as having a conversation, calling a friend, having your friends come over and have a conversation.

00:23:00:10 - 00:23:17:16
Niki
And I really would want to accelerate more of that. Just us being in community with each other instead of digitally being in Fo communities with each other. I think that's what I would pause. And what I would definitely accelerate.

00:23:17:18 - 00:23:48:16
Ashley
A like is not the same as a hug. Can we I, I've put many things on t shirts in my brain, but that really does need to go on a t shirt. That is fantastic. I think that's going to be the title of our episode, by the way. A like is not the same. I love it. My final question and my favorite question to ask with all of your experiences, everything you now know, if you can go back in time and say something to your younger self, what would you say?

00:23:48:19 - 00:24:10:00
Niki
Thank you for asking. That's a great question. I think I would probably tell myself that it's all gonna work out, and that it might not be easy and it might not be smooth. But you know, one of my best friends, as part of our wedding speech said to me and Adam, like Nicki's, reinvented herself more times than Madonna.

00:24:10:06 - 00:24:34:09
Niki
And that's okay. Like, I think telling my younger self that, like, you're gonna ride a roller coaster and it's not going to be a smooth ride, but you have to enjoy it for every second of it because it's not a long roller coaster. Like, I really think that's what I would tell my younger self is all the changes, all of the inconveniences of life.

00:24:34:09 - 00:24:39:07
Niki
Just like, keep going, keep right, and it's all going to work out in the end.

00:24:39:09 - 00:24:58:22
Ashley
I love that I have loved my time with you, really have taken many, many mental notes for myself, as I'm sure many others will, alike. It's not a hug. I love this, all of it. Thank you for your time today. You are absolutely incredible and you're an inspiration most certainly to me. Thank you again.

00:24:59:00 - 00:25:01:07
Niki
Thanks so much, Ashley. I really enjoyed it.