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Reflecting deeply on life is an antidote to living life on autopilot. The Noblest Pursuit Podcast is a forum to think about the big questions we all need to wrestle with to live our best life possible.
Paul: Well, we are recording.
You probably have
Tim: to hold your mic to your face.
Paul: No, I think my gain is pretty good.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
I don't think I have to hold it too close.
I
Tim: don't even know what that means.
Gain.
Paul: It's just how much the mic picks up.
I don't even know what that means.
podcasts?
Hundreds of podcasts, something like
Tim: that.
I'm just a talent.
I just show up.
You
Paul: are just a talent.
That's true.
Well, you're my first repeat guest.
Tim: Yay.
Do I get like a gift?
Paul: Yeah.
We were going to do this with,
um, recording video off of my,
um, off my iPhone and just, I
decided let's keep it simple.
Keep it cash.
Keep it cash.
We are sitting in uncle Tim's house on his
couch, uh, sipping on some old Forrester.
What is this?
I think this is the King ranch.
Yeah, that's what it was.
Yeah.
This is tasty.
Tim: Yeah, I, um, I've instilled
this like reward system for,
I'm calling it like dailies.
So like daily, uh, habits
that I want to do every day.
Um, and if I do so many of
these in a month and like
Paul: give yourself a treat,
Tim: give myself a treat.
So it was a combination of that and like
the Eagles going to the super bowl that
I picked out to reward yourself for that.
Yeah.
I mean, it's been a long year.
Um, so I picked out two, two
bottles of brown that had my
eye on, um, and treat it myself.
So that's, and we just cracked it.
So I had, you know,
Paul: it was a good bottle pop.
Tim: Yeah, it was, yeah,
it was great bottle pop and
the flavors are pretty good.
Not complaining.
What's
Paul: the proof
Tim: on
Paul: this one?
Tim: No idea.
The bottles over there.
I probably should have grabbed it.
Paul: I'm going to guess it's
somewhere, somewhere close to a hundred.
Probably look at it on my,
Tim: on my phone here.
Paul: I wonder if the game's good enough
to be picking up Benji's licking his lips.
Tim: Benji, what is it?
What is it called?
S.
A.
S.
M.
R.
Like the like the sound, you
know what I'm talking about?
Yeah, yeah.
Benji in the background.
Paul: Yeah.
Tim: Benji chillin on the couch with us.
Benji
Paul: chillin on the couch.
I think that was, that's the biggest
loss in not having a video of this.
Yeah.
Benji, he would have propelled,
propelled this episode to record highs.
It probably would have went viral.
Absolutely viral.
Tim: Alright, so, King Ranch.
Wow, I did not pay that much for it.
Um,
let's see, King Ranch Proof.
What was your guess?
Paul: I was going to say
it's close to 100, maybe 110.
105.
Oh, look at that.
Not too bad.
I'm in striking distance.
You said 100, 110, you're right there.
Tim: That's just about on the nose.
Paul: It's got a little bit
of a bite, but not too much.
Tim: Yeah, it's uh,
Asian, I think mesquite.
Paul: Oh, okay.
Tim: Is that what it is?
Um, Yeah, it's Asian.
Yeah.
I, I had heard it wasn't, wasn't
great, but yeah, it's, uh, a
proprietary batch using, using
heavily charred barrels filtered
through King ranch, mesquite charcoal.
It
Tim: was first released in 2022 MSRP
for this bottles, like 70 bones.
I played a little bit more than for that
on secondary, but I see it on secondary
listed at like one, What do we got here?
150, 140.
I definitely wouldn't
pay that much for it.
Yeah, I'm not, I'm not angry.
I'm a big old Forrester guy.
Paul: They're fantastic.
I love, I love great,
Tim: great lineup.
Typically most of their
stuff is available.
Um, I'd probably would pay.
I probably do on the first,
first couple sips of it.
I probably would pay 70, 80
bucks for it, but I don't know
if I'd pay any more than that.
Yeah,
Paul: it's so hard.
It's so hard.
The Birmingham like to really kind of
justify a big price tag when you are
competing against like the, Oh, the
defensive line of, of Buffalo trace.
That's just mauling you, right?
Like you poured me.
So, so Superbowl Sunday, we kick it off.
It was like one o'clock in the afternoon.
You poured me a Buffalo trace blind.
and that just started the day.
I, I, I, I wasn't productive
until this afternoon.
Tim: Really?
You still felt the effects of that today?
Paul: I just, I don't drink like I I'll
have, I'll have a splash of Brown, you
know, a couple of nights out of the week.
Yeah.
Like I started drinking it, like one
in the afternoon and we get, we went
until 11 or something like that.
And I was, I was just
sipping on something.
I wasn't drunk, but I was
just like, my body was not
used to being so just steeped.
Um, but that, but that Buffalo
trace blind was amazing.
I think it was just fantastic.
Tim: Yeah.
One of those was hazmat with
a stag, which is damn near.
That might be my new favorite.
One 31 35 proof or
whatever the heck it is.
Um, yeah, that's, that's no joke.
So what did I pour you?
I poured you, um, I'd poured you stag.
I poured you a well or 12.
That was, and that was excellent.
And then the Eagle Eagle,
which is one of your faves.
So then it
Paul: lands
Tim: and I.
Paul: I stacked them appropriately.
And it was
Tim: in that, yeah, that's how you did it.
And, and you, you placed stag
first and the Weller 12 and the
Paul: Eagle and then the blends.
And I didn't think I didn't
know what the blends was.
I wasn't impressed with the blends.
I thought that this, that
the Weller 12 was Eagle.
And I thought the Eagle was Buffalo trace.
And I was really worried that I was going
to invert the Buffalo trace and the Eagle
Tim: ain't no shame.
Paul: Yeah.
But like, you also
didn't tell me what, So I
Tim: have a, I have a, I have a healthy
bourbon collection at my house here
in Ohio and I have, um, um, buffalo
trace barrel when we, yeah, when we,
we bought that, when we, that, when
that was that, when we went down and
got the old Forrester, yeah, that was
the birthday bourbon birthday bourbon.
And so I miraculously won the
lottery for that, which was.
The odds of that are pretty pretty
slim one one that and then On that trip
not as slim as pocket aces coming up.
Whoa Coming up quads.
Yeah We didn't have to bring that up.
Yeah, we did So yeah, so we picked up
that barrel and I I just been basically
stacking my bottles of buffalo trace on
that barrel barrel, which is Pretty full.
Um, yeah, it's a nice it's
a nice collection there.
Yeah You So, but yeah, you, you, um, you
start at Superbowl Sunday pretty early.
And I was just too nervous all day
to really eat much or drink much.
It was a great game.
It's like the best day ever.
It was a great game.
It was a great game.
I know most people watching
were like, man, this game sucks.
But if you're a birds fan, yeah.
If you're a bird fans or you just
hated the cheese went in so much, you
know, it's probably a good day for you.
Us being more of the former.
I don't, I don't hate the Chiefs.
I'm a big Andy Reid fan.
I don't mind Travis Kelsey
and all the hoopla there.
I'm a big Kelsey, Jason,
Kelsey, Kelsey brothers fan.
Um, I think Jason Kelsey is
one of my favorite Eagles ever.
And I think, uh, I don't
even hate my homes.
I don't, I don't have
any hate for my home.
I don't hate my homes.
His family's pretty, pretty weird.
But like, I just, I just saw a story
that his dad was getting into it with
like an ex Atlanta Braves pitcher like
was going to fight him on the street.
He's had my homes.
His dad's had a lot of run ins with like
the law, I think with the UIs and my
home's brother is always spouting off.
It's just like, he's, he's pretty
much like very corporate with
how my homes like treats things.
But his, his family's kinda,
it's almost like the Royals.
Right.
Paul: Right.
Um, which is weird because,
you know, you can contrast that
to Jalen hurts and his family.
His family seems to be like
salt of the earth people.
Tim: Yeah.
Although I was watching, um, I don't
know if you were watching this with me.
So after the win, I've been kind of like
soaking in all the, though, maybe we're
a little wrong about Hertz or Sirianni
and although that, that, that wore off
pretty fast, all the, yeah, all the sports
talk, but one of the guys that's been
pretty critical, also a big, uh, cheese
fan, Nick Wright on Fox sport or FS one,
I guess, I guess Hertz mom was like,
why do you always talk crap about Yeah.
Um,
Paul: but, but he, he framed it
in, in the light of there, right?
Tim: Like, yeah, that's appropriate.
I, I, I like his takes, you know, I know a
lot of Philly fans don't like Nick, right.
And kind of how he, I
liked, I liked their show.
I like his takes.
I think he's really intelligent.
He's a young guy.
Um, you know, I think he
speaks very intelligently
about the game and, um, Yeah.
But you know, he was, he was for
sure like, Hey, this is going to
be the best team ever three P and
we just blew the doors off of them.
We, as in the Philadelphia
Eagles, uh, not, not me.
I didn't do anything.
I just, I just cheer really loud
Paul: and scare my kids.
We do cheer really loud.
Pick that up from dad.
Yeah.
I still can't help myself when I
see a fumble, have to yell ball
Tim: ball
Paul: ball.
My kids don't get it.
Yeah, mine.
I mean, mine do now.
I think, I mean, I wonder if they'll
grow up and and they'll yell ball when
they're older because we didn't do
that when we were kids but dad did.
Tim: Yeah.
Paul: Yeah.
Well, he goes
Tim: explain it.
It was like when he played.
Right.
That they'd call it.
Yeah, they'd yell it and
we never really play.
I mean, I played, I
played club at West Point.
A couple of seasons,
Paul: but I never played, I never
played any, any football with pads.
I played rugby at West point.
Tim: Yeah,
it's fun.
I mean, obviously, you know, there's
obviously a lot of negative press with
like brain injuries and things like that.
But when they're trying to
clean that up, but it's a
Paul: great game.
Yeah.
Timothy's really your namesake, my son,
uh, he's really getting into it recently.
They play pick up on the, on
the playground all the time.
And they're playing like actual
football, like two hand touch when
they can get flags, they'll play flag.
Um, I'd love to, I'd love to
get them in pads actually.
Like, I mean, I know the brain injury
thing is, is a, is an issue that people
really concern themselves with, but
I kind of wonder, you know, like,
I mean, I've been concussed a bunch
of times as a kid, like easily, like
there were, there were definitely
accidents where I got knocked out.
Right.
Um, and I have scars, you know,
multiple scars on my head to prove,
but you know, not to say that
brain injuries, not a big deal.
I think, you know, it can be, but I wonder
if, if it cuts too far the wrong way,
or if you're protecting the kid too much
and they're not exposed to enough risk.
That they're not able to
judge risk later in life.
Tim: Yeah, everything's like You know,
you kind of talk you kind of think about
like a bubble wrap You know generation.
I remember one thing that my My
roommate to bring up West Point again.
My roommate said was he's like, you
know, he was always he's a big football
player wrestler He's like you could kind
of tell the kids in our class that You
know, have played in like contact sports
and those that haven't and you know, my,
my son, Liam, who is, how old is Liam?
Five.
He's gotten into, into flag
football later, by the way.
Yeah.
He's gotten into flag football
and he was really timid at first.
And, you know, And then he, he
just turned it on and, and, uh, you
know, he's one of the smaller kids.
He's quick, but listens to the coach.
You said he was diving, diving for flags.
Like I would be watching.
And I'm like, geez, like that was a
really good athletic play, um, diving
for flags and things like that.
So he, he's liking it.
I don't know.
Like where I like, I, again, like he's
starting to get into ice hockey now,
which is obviously more of a contact
as they get, as they get bigger, um,
You know, some of those studies and
obviously like they've had movies and
things like that, that, you know, you
hear about all these players that have
gone, you know, that, that have, you know,
Committed suicide and things like that.
So it does give you pause, but
it's like, are we, are we managing
to the lowest common denominator?
Well, and I
Paul: think, I think that there's
an aspect of, you know, you
can't prevent everything and in
trying to prevent everything.
And in trying to prevent the worst
possible things, are you creating other
problems, other problems that are worse?
Right.
It's like, it's, you know,
it's, it's a monoculture, right?
It's the idea of a monoculture.
Like, so, so yes, your, your corn
is completely impervious to 99.
9 99%, but the 1 percent that gets
through absolutely obliterates it.
Right.
And you kind of see that.
I mean, I, I was talking to, um, a
friend of ours, that's a doc, an ER doc.
And what this person was saying is
that you're actually seeing a lot more
injuries and tragic injuries amongst
like younger to older teenagers.
And a lot of it has to do with driving,
driving, and sometimes it's a little
bit of like adventure type stuff, right?
Like jumping off of things
like what boys will do.
Um, but a lot of it's driving and the,
the theory that this person postulated,
which I think is actually probably true.
Probably holds a little bit of
water is that these kids never, they
never had to play on monkey bars
where they could really get hurt.
Right.
They just never, they never felt there,
you know, they never felt anything
tighten or pucker or anything like that.
Right.
Like nothing was ever going to hurt them.
Tim: Right.
Paul: And then you put
them behind a wheel.
Yeah.
They don't know limits.
They have no idea.
Right.
They don't know what fear feels
Tim: like.
Yeah.
And I think when you make, I
think when you make video games
Paul: as like real, right.
Well, and the video games, that's
a good example to the video games.
You're not, you know,
everything is handed to you.
Everything is, is on rails for you.
Like you're not really taking chances.
You know, like, you know, one of my
favorite genres of video game is,
uh, the, the game that I really love
is called FTL faster than light.
And it's what's called a rogue
like where you have no saves
and you have no extra lives.
If you died, the game's over.
So you can invest like three
hours into a play through.
You get to like the, the dude before
the final boss, you get obliterated
because you make a mistake.
Three hours of your life is just gone.
Wow.
Yeah, it's amazing.
And it's such a rush to
play that game, right?
Like, cause it really,
the stakes are real there.
Right.
But like, think about all the games now,
like you can, you know, even the classic
games that we love, you can play with
like save states and shit like that.
It's called the switch.
It's just like, yeah, you can
do it on the switch on the retro
Tim: pie that I
Paul: built.
Tim: Right.
Yeah.
Paul: You know,
Tim: it kind of reminds me, like game
kind of reminds me of like the analogy
that I talk about with your phone.
Paul: Oh yeah.
Although I have a, I have a
case on the phone right now.
Really?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Why?
Um,
I don't, I mean, it came, it didn't
come with the phone, but they, they
kind of like, they kind of like
scammed me into like getting a case
or like, Oh, it's like free the phone.
But, uh, actually really what it was
was that, um, I got the phone when I
was on that road trip out, out to see
our friend, uh, retire from the Marines.
And my phone was just giving up the ghost.
So I stopped at Deptford mall actually,
and went to the AT& T store there.
And they totally scammed me with a bunch
of like add ons and shit like that.
They said we're free, but they weren't.
Um, so you check the bill later and we
had to get that like reversed and whatnot.
But the big thing was that I
was camping the whole time,
right in the back of the Tesla.
And you know, I'm confident in not
dropping my phone, but what I didn't want
was to be like going in and going in and
out of the Tesla and for it to actually
accidentally slip out of my pants or
something like that and just shatter.
Right.
Tim: Like as you're like, as I'm
crawling out from crawling out.
Yeah,
Paul: exactly.
Exactly.
Cause like I was, I was using the Tesla
that was kind of like out of spec, right?
Like it's not meant to be a camper.
And I kind of turned into a
camper, which was really dope.
It was a lot of fun, but you
know, I was definitely hard
to get it out of like that.
I mean, it's a, it's a
sports coupe basically.
Right?
Like you're sleeping in the
back seat, fold it down.
Your legs are in the trunk.
Like going in and out of
that thing was not easy.
Tim: Did you ever drop it?
Paul: Yeah.
Yeah.
It was a good call to have the case.
Um, I actually had a screen
protector and I chipped the screen
protector almost immediately.
Um, you know, it was one of
those glass overlay ones.
And then when I got home, I just
removed the screen protector.
I was like, I don't really need that.
So, but I left the, I left the case on.
Tim: Yeah.
I'd never seen anybody just like
walk around with their cell phone,
just like without protection.
Yeah.
Paul: Yeah.
Tim: And it reminded me of that, like,
movie, uh, documentary that was, I think
it was filmed by National Geographic
about, um, this guy named Alex Honnold,
who free soloed El Capitan and Yosemite.
And the whole time you're watching this
Paul: 100 percent think you're
seeing this dude's last days.
Tim: Yeah, you're like, like, this dude
is climbing the sheer piece of granite.
Without ropes.
Mm-hmm . It's one of the mo it's,
it's not one of it is the most
impressive physical thing, physical
feat I've ever seen in my life.
Paul: Probably, probably.
That can be attempted.
Tim: Yeah.
And like, I'm not climbing, but
you feel like you're climbing,
you're just like, mm-hmm . And
that's how I feel when I see you.
Like without rock, rock, a case,
without a, I feel without a case.
I'm like, how do you
Paul: even do that?
No, I mean.
I actually used, we talked about this
a minute, like when, when I kicked
off this past year with noble squad,
um, Carrie and I, my fiance, you know,
not that she wasn't being supportive.
It just, she couldn't really understand,
you know, like the sacrifice and
the work and the loss, right.
And like how hard it is
to be an entrepreneur.
And you and I talked and one of the
things that came up, you said like shower.
Have her watch that movie, have
her watch that documentary.
There's a part in it where the,
the mom talks about how can you let
your son take these risks, right?
To go back to the head injuries.
So you actually,
Tim: you actually
Paul: had her
Tim: watch it after I said that.
Okay.
And she, and yeah,
Paul: I, I take your
advice very seriously.
I even forgot, I forgot I said that,
but I remember, I actually remember.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Pepperidge farm remembers.
Yeah.
Um, but yeah, we, we sat down and we
watched it together and I said, you know,
pay attention to this part really quick.
Really carefully because like the mom
kind of explains like, you know, if
if she took that away from him or she
muted that for him He wouldn't be him.
Yep, right and it's funny because like
I actually I connected with right before
this last poker game so I'm back to back
I'm better than Jalen Hurts right now.
Wait, what?
The poker game on Friday night.
Tim: Yeah.
The one that you won.
Paul: Yeah.
I won the one the last
time I was here too.
I got it.
Yeah.
All right.
We'll edit that one out.
Yeah.
We're not going to edit that out.
That's too good.
Um, but right before that poker game
started, which was amazing, by the way,
we'll talk about the surprise on that one.
But, um, I had the opportunity
to talk to a buddy of mine from
college and his name's David.
And he's one of the coolest dudes.
And he and I hadn't talked since
before, you know, I left love every
and struck out with noble squad on
my own, um, with whole, uh, not Rory
who's joined us, but I was talking
about you know, the prospecting and,
and landing some sales and whatnot.
And, um, he was like, dude, it's
so good to see you back to you.
Right.
Like back to the way you used to be
and you just seem so lit up, right.
Switched on, switched on.
That's right.
And, uh, you know, it, it's interesting.
Cause like the last, you know,
call it eight months or whatever
it's been have been really hard.
Professionally and financially.
And like, you know, I'm, I, I'm
waking up constantly, not waking
up constantly, but like throughout
the day, you'll hear me go.
And this, the angst of like what's
happening in my industry with the
layoffs and the introduction of AI
and whatnot, and there's just so much
uncertainty, but at the same time, right?
Like it's like climbing El
Capitan for me right now.
Right.
Like, you know, there's a lot of risk.
There may be reward.
There may not be, I don't know,
but I also know there's nothing
else I'd want to do right now.
Right?
Like I would not want to be sitting on
the sidelines just watching this menu
of, of just crappy conditions brew.
Right.
That's not, that doesn't seem fun to me.
Yeah.
You know, even though I'm.
Making basically nothing right now
because I have a team to feed and I've
got expenses and all those other stuff And
we're figuring out our pipeline and we're
figuring out our messaging and you know,
things are starting to come together But
it's you know, starting a business is slow
Tim: Yeah, I mean the big difference
between you and you know, free soul and
elk El Capitan, you know you starting
your business and free so on El Capitan
is like That dude couldn't fail.
You had to be perfect.
Yes.
You were going to fail over
and over and over again.
And you're going to iterate
and iterate and iterate.
Right.
And I think it's, it's the people that,
and this goes back to like the, you
know, play paint, playing contact sports.
And I'm seeing in my son, like the
people that can get up and do it again.
And get punched in the face and do it
again right and kicked in the stomach
and do it again I think Angela Duckworth
and her book grit was like, this is
what there's there's You know millions
of people that have Talent or that are
geniuses that are not successful, right?
However, your way you define success
It's the people that can kind
of keep going even when it gets
really can we cuss on your podcast?
Yeah fucking yeah, if it when it
gets really shitty That's what
makes That's what makes you succeed.
And, and that's what I'm trying to
teach my kids is, you know, it's not
about, you know, it's, it's not about
some of these things that you hear
about, like earning the most money or,
or being the smartest or the fastest.
It's about putting the work in.
Right.
And I think, I think also knowing.
When to pivot or adapt.
I think sometimes entrepreneurs
can very much get shiny object.
Sure.
Right.
And I've, I've experienced this where,
you know, if we've kind of, you know,
contracted our business a little bit,
because not that we were doing too
much, but I think it's like focusing
on what we do really well, right.
And really kind of center on that.
And you're kind of in that stage now where
it's, you almost have to like throw things
against the wall and see what works, but
know that, you know, your idea of the
business is going to continue to evolve.
And it's your ability to keep going
is going to what it's going to be.
What makes you successful?
And I think it helps that you have
a hard, you know, you have a hard
work ethic that you're intelligent,
that you can kind of read things.
Um, and I think this is really
hard to read in terms of
where your market is going.
Yeah,
Paul: it's, it's insane.
It's funny.
Cause I was listening to our
podcast, the first one today.
You know, cause I'm, I'm trying
out new editing software and I used
our podcast as the, as the test.
So I was listening to a bunch of it and I
was like, man, so much has changed in, you
know, that was like, like six weeks ago.
Yeah.
And, and a lot of it is just,
just testing the market.
Right.
And going like, Oh, okay.
Like that wasn't a miss.
That's a trend, right?
Like, You know, there were a couple of
these and it's like, no, I think that
that might not be a thing anymore.
Right?
Like SAS development shops might
not really be a thing anymore.
At least not in the way that we think
of them the way that we thought of them.
Right.
Um, you know, and again, maybe that
normalizes in a couple of years,
but it's probably three or four.
Right.
That's an eternity.
That's a long time.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
That's a long time.
So it's interesting because like I
remember when when you were getting into
the financial planning space They were
talking a lot about robo advisors and
whatnot and I remember talking to you
about that like you being concerned and
all and and you kind of had the Take and
I think this is the right take that it was
the robo advisor is not going to replace
the financial planner because Financial
planning is about emotions, right?
It's not just the numbers
You Yeah, I think it's
Tim: about emotions.
I think it's about connection, you
know, like, and I know something that
we'll touch on is, you know, I think,
I think, I think we're in that stage of,
there's just so much information and so
much distraction going on that there, we
don't, almost don't have like a home base.
Right.
And, and, you know, I think, I think
for a lot of our clients, it's like,
it's just like, I can read a million
articles or I can chat GPTA, but
like, tell me like what you think
is best for me for me for me size.
Yeah.
Yeah.
For me personally, you know, and you
know, I was recording a podcast with
my partner today and we were kind of
the, the topic was like, You know,
couples and, and kind of how different
couples manage their finances and joint
accounts and separate accounts and money
personalities and things like that.
And, you know, I was given an example
of a client that, you know, that I've
been working with for probably like
seven or eight years that she came,
she came to us with a good amount
of credit card debt, um, quarter
million dollars in student loans.
Didn't like her job.
It was pursuing like
a public service loan.
So she was kind of
stuck there at least for
Hmm.
Tim: You know, and, and when I talked
to her, um, and we were kind of going
through, we call it script your plan,
which is kind of like the goal set in.
And it's not like, like, what are
the goals of your investments?
It's like, what do you want to do?
Like, what are the, yeah.
Like, like we follow the three
questions are like, of like, you
know, what, what are the things
that really you're passionate about?
And, you know, the third question
is like, Hey, you know, so we kind
of follow these three questions.
And, you know, the third question is
like, If today was your last day on
earth, like what did you not get to do?
What did you not get to become?
And I think that like, cause we, we think
that our time is infinite and it's not.
Yep.
And I think it really crystallizes
like, like, you know, we have finite
resources of time and money, or
we put in the first things first.
Yeah.
Right.
And so in the, in the, in the process
of going through that with her, she was
like, She talked about horseback riding
and doing this before pharmacy school.
And I'm like, you got to do this.
Like you glow when you talk about it.
And she did like, we, we got through the
loans, we got through the credit cards.
Um, she changed jobs and she's in a much
more flexible job with better money.
She moved from one part of Florida
and other BB closer to like
the national equestrian center.
She has pickles, the horse,
she has a big old diesel truck,
like she's freaking doing it.
And then the second thing on the, on the.
So I was talking to her this week and the
big thing is that the big thing that we
were talking to is that she, another thing
on the docket for her was, um, she wanted
to take an African safari with her mom and
she booked it last week or the week before
for the September once in a lifetime trip.
And to me,
I think that those things are as
important as And this is true, like her
IRA has grown 100, 000 year over year.
And I'll say that, you know,
past performance is not
indicative of future performance.
Um, None of this is financial advice.
Yeah, so my compliance
guy doesn't come after me.
Um, Because we're sipping
bourbon, talking birds.
Yeah, and she's like, holy shit.
And she was one of those, because we,
we, you know, one of the books that we've
released, Um, that was authored by my
partner, Tim and coauthored by another
Tim is called seven figure pharmacist.
And it's just like, whatever,
like, that's not going to happen.
But she started to see that
inflection point of her
wealth really kind of growing.
And I think she's like, that's awesome.
That's interesting.
But I think the quantity, the
quantitative things that I think a robot
can do much better than I can, right.
That an algorithm can do much better.
I, I can, I don't think
it holds a candle to.
Some of those other things, those
life, those qualitative things that,
you know, when she's on her deathbed,
she's not going to say, Oh, I wish I
put a, put more money into my Roth IRA.
She's going to say, thank
God that I did this.
You know, thank God I did this trip.
Right.
You know, when my mom's around
or, you know, you know, return to
a passion that I got away from.
Right.
And I think that is the, the
component, like, cause I have concerns
obviously with AI and like, you
know, are we going to come into this?
And I very much will say air quote.
Utopia world where work is not a thing,
but I think like, I think, I think
the future industry is going to be
one around human connection because we
thought that with like social media,
we're more connected than we ever were.
Ever have been, but I think we're more
disconnected than we ever have been.
I don't think that's a hot take.
Um, so, and I think we've lost, I think
we've lost, like, I think our muscles
have atrophied and our ability to
make organic connection with others.
And we almost, I think we
almost need the help of, it's
Paul: funny.
Cause like in the dating scene,
you know, cause I've, I've come,
um, came through a divorce.
Re engaged to be married, but came
through the dating scene recently.
Right.
A couple of years ago.
And what's, what's kind of like
the big trend in dating now
is did you meet organically?
Right.
Not meeting on the apps.
Right.
Cause everybody, everybody
meets on the apps now.
It used to be, it was such a,
uh, a, uh, not a taboo, a taboo.
Exactly.
And now it's like the standard.
And it's, you know, Like if you could
meet, if you can meet organically,
that's a good start to a relationship.
Um, but you know, like to tie
it back to the birds because you
know, go birds, go birds, go birds.
Um, I think, I think it's kind of like
the difference between my homes and hurts.
Right.
And the, the.
The Eagles locker room,
the Eagles culture, right.
Of connection of, of
sacrifice of community, right.
That you saw, and you, you saw it
like throughout the year, but you
really saw it on display on Sunday.
Yeah.
Right.
Where, I mean, they were a better
team as far as like the number,
like the stacked number of players,
but you get to be that way.
You get to draw that talent.
You get to bring people in, you know,
I mean, Uh, our GM, I don't know what
he's doing to get all those moves made
to stack the team, but I would imagine
part of it has to be, and you heard
it where the players are like, it's
like, it's like playing college ball.
Yeah.
Right.
Like that's not how pro
ball operates, right?
Everybody's got an ego.
Everybody's out for themselves.
It's all about your numbers, right?
Right.
If your quarterback has the best QB
rating and your wide receiver is getting
all the touches and the looks, right?
That's what matters, right?
That's my homes.
Yeah.
Right.
Didn't matter.
Tim: Yeah.
I was watching, um, a clip of Mackay
Beckton, who was, uh, a high first
round pick for the New York jets.
That was basically a bust for them, you
know, playing tackle left tackle, I think.
And he signed with us in the off season,
um, as like a reclamation project.
And we have the, we have the
best offensive line coach in
the NFL and, and, and Stoutland
and, um, Stoutland university.
Yeah.
And, and Becton played like
a, like an all pro pro bowler.
And one of the things that he
said, and this was, I don't know,
mid, mid season was the culture
in Philly is just different.
Like he's like, you would have, you
would have thought that I like was
drafted here, like the way that the
whole building opened their arms to me.
And, and he's like, he's like, I've
never been closer with a group of guys
this quickly since like high school.
And I think it's a testament to how we.
Roseman and and really Nick Sirianni
people give Sierra Sierrani a lot
of shit about like, what does he do?
He's a CEO.
He doesn't call plays, right?
He doesn't call defenses I think
his special power is his ability
to Lead men and and Be authentic.
He's he's very emotional which I
think it's getting a very atypical
for for a coach But I think like
The guy, his players genuinely
care for him and each other.
And when you, when you talk to a
man in these interviews, they're
like, yeah, like, like we want Nick
to be authentic and we love him.
And, and that's hard to do in a group,
you know, 53 man roster for these,
these guys are alpha, alpha, always
have always been alpha, alpha dogs.
Right.
And really to get them to, to buy in and,
and and, and have that human connection.
Like one of the things that I always
saw, you know, in their, in their videos
and the Eagles organization does a great
job of putting out like videos and every
week, but like, you know, the Thursday
before the game or whatever, you know,
they have their final team meeting.
And the first part of that meeting is
like all the, like the entire team,
just dapping everyone up, hug in.
And like, it's just, it kind of
goes, it kind of reminds me of like,
Again, at West Point, we, we have
to greet people, you know, and a
greeting is like a recognition, um,
uh, and respect and it ain't easy,
Paul: Corporal,
Tim: sure is fun.
You know, I, I think that is
something that is not stated enough
about, again, the Eagles and, and
I think, I think it's a lost thing.
As I was mentioning, like, you
know, we were talking about our
poker game, you know, I feel.
I feel like getting our poker game
together is like pulling teeth.
And you know, I don't
want it to be like that.
And I've gotten frustrated over the
year, over this past year, because we
just haven't been able to line up enough
guys on a monthly, on a monthly basis.
And I'm like, do we do a static?
Like, Hey, it's the third
Friday of every month.
But, um, you know, I know with like
Tim and myself, or who were two of the.
Cornerstone players along with Chris,
our brother, our brother in law, like Tim
has a lot of sports that are chained, you
know, changing season by season, right?
Season by season.
So like, I respect that, but you know,
like he's really busy and we just had
a baby, we have three kids, but like,
I want to make this work, you know?
And I think like, I think this is
going to be really, really important
in the future or now really is because.
You know, like us, like we grew
up in New Jersey, we don't live in
New Jersey, you know, we live in
communities that we're transient to.
So we're trying to build roots.
And I think that's a lot
Paul: more common than it's not common.
Tim: Yeah.
And, and I think it's hard and I don't
know if it's more difficult for dudes.
I would probably say it is.
I think it's, it's more
difficult to do for dudes that
like put themselves out there.
And like, it's kind of, you know,
it's kind of easy, like under the guy.
I mean, I like playing poker, but
it's kind of like, I want to hang
out with some bros, drink some
Paul: Brown, have a good
time, have a good time.
You know, that takes me back to the
point that I was going to make, you
know, I've talked to my buddy Dave
before the game, before the poker game.
And I come upstairs and
dad's in your living room.
I didn't know dad was going to be here.
Yeah, that was pretty fucking cool.
Tim: Yeah.
Paul: How'd that happen?
Tim: Yeah.
So how did that happen?
Um, Eagles won the NFC championship.
Go birds, go birds.
We blew the doors off the commanders.
Screw those guys.
Yep.
Um, and I probably texted you like,
I don't know, Monday, Tuesday that
week, the week after it wasn't,
it was pretty close to the game.
Cause I'm like, you know, I
think it was Monday, Monday.
Yeah.
And I had said something to
Shay about like, Hey, and, and
Shay's, Shay's always down.
Like she kind of understands
like how important a family
is and things like that.
And she's like, Oh yeah,
that, that makes sense.
So I, I, I texted you and I'm
like, Hey, um, we got poker Friday.
Yep.
Um, we got the hammer and nails.
We're going to, I, I got some credits.
We can do hammer and nails.
some mani pedis, some, some
dude mani pedis, which don't
hate if you've never done it.
It's pretty awesome.
It's pretty amazing actually.
Um, and then we got birds on, on Sunday,
you know, to hopefully bring it home.
And yeah, you were like,
I was an immediate.
Yes.
You were what?
Yeah.
Yeah.
You were like, yeah, I'll figure this out.
So you booked it.
And then I was, I was, I was kind
of thinking about this and, and
I was talking to our sister who
lives down the street from me.
Okay.
And I said, Hey, like, are you guys
going to be around for Superbowl?
And she's like, well, Chris is
going to be traveling, but you know,
I'll see what the girls want to do.
So, you know, we'll probably come over.
So, so I was like, all right,
there'll be the three of us here.
Then I'm like, well, I always think about
dad, about, you know, right or wrong.
Um, cause I feel like dad's
fandom has kind of softened,
waned since he moved to Florida.
Um, but I remember, I remember when
the Eagles went to the Super Bowl
in 2005, 2004, 2005, I drove home
for that NSC championship game.
They won, I forget who they
played to go, was it Tampa?
They won that game.
And then I had to drive back
to West Point because I think
I was a firstie or whatever.
I called him the W, I don't
know if I ever told you that.
I called him the WIP and I
was, I was put on the air.
Oh really?
I didn't know that.
And then a couple of my buddies
were like, were you just on the air?
I was like, yeah, first
time, first time, long time.
Um, but I, I was saying on the call,
I was basically like, yeah, I drove
home to watch the game with my dad.
I'm going back to school.
And they're like, where
do you go to school?
And they're like, Oh, wow.
Awesome.
And I was just, I was like on cloud nine.
Cause that was a fun time.
Yeah, that was the first time we
went to the Super Bowl, which we
wound up losing to the Patriots.
Um, shout out to my buddy JB
because I watched it with him
and was pretty cranky afterwards.
They said
Paul: you didn't talk
for a week to anybody.
Yeah,
Tim: I don't think I talked to a week.
I just, he's like, he like, I'm
such a, I'm such a good sport.
He like reached out to shake my hand
and I think I walked by him and didn't
talk to anybody for like a week.
Um, I, I feel like I've
matured somewhat since then.
Um, you would have cried
probably last night or Sunday.
So anyway, the whole point of this is
like, I kind of think about dad when,
when I think about the Eagles, cause
that was, that's one of his, you know,
passions, if we can call it that, um,
something that I see him get at least
growing up, we see and get excited about.
So I texted him and I was like,
Hey, you know, trips coming
in, beans going to be there.
I'm Tripp by the way, a lot of people
don't know me as Tripp, but yeah.
Um, your namesake is going to
be there because my dad's Paul.
Um, and our sister's going to be there.
And, yeah, it'd be awesome if
you guys could like, come out.
Paul: Yeah, come up from Tampa.
Tim: Didn't text me back.
Right.
Um, and then like that day and you know,
I was going to joke him like, Hey, I know
you're super busy just, you know, sitting
on the couch playing Sudoku or whatever
the heck you do for in, in, in retirement.
Um, but then around dinnertime, he
texted or our mom texted my sister,
which I didn't clear anything with
her yet and saying, Hey, we're coming,
you know, we're staying at your house.
And my sister was like, what
the heck just actually happened?
Cause I didn't talk to her about it.
It worked out.
They, yeah.
So they, they came, you
flew in on Wednesday.
They came in on.
Paul: And then I saw them on Friday.
No, they came in on Friday.
Friday morning.
That's right, yeah, they
came in Friday morning.
And
Tim: then you were
downstairs, um, networking.
Yeah, talking to Dave,
doing some networking.
And I thought you, I
thought you knew he's here.
Cause that's so loud.
No.
Paul: Um, no, like I, it
was like a surprise party.
I came up, came around the corner.
He was standing right there.
I was like, Holy shit.
Tim: Yeah.
So, so the old man was here and,
Paul: and I didn't say anything to you,
but like, that was actually like one of
my secret desires was like, Oh man, it'd
be really good to say something to me.
Did I really talk about it the night
Tim: before?
You're like, Oh, what did you say?
Oh, okay.
You said something like, Oh man,
maybe we should have said something.
Mom, maybe we should have
said something to dad.
Yeah.
And I was like, yeah,
maybe we should have.
Yeah.
But look, but if I had that
poker face, I probably would have
Paul: won.
Yeah.
Now you, you have a good poker face.
You just, you got shit cards less.
Yeah.
I was playing a little loose.
Um, not as loose as some of
the people on the table, man.
There were some, there
were some wild hands there.
Tim: I had some bad beats.
I had some pretty shit hands, but
then I had some bad beats and, you
know, my opponent chasing, so I don't,
I don't want to get mad about it.
I don't try to get mad about it, but I
had some bad beats, but yeah, anyway.
Um, yeah.
So, so pop pop came up and kind
of watched, he doesn't play poker,
but kind of watched the poker
Paul: game and he was so thrilled.
Yeah, all he talked about is
just how much fun we were having.
Yeah, he was like, man, it seemed like you
guys had, you were having a great time.
Everyone's laughing and
everyone's having a great time.
Yeah.
And
Tim: he was sipping on some Manhattan's.
I made a, I made a, a canister
of from pop pops canister, made
some mixed up some Manhattan's.
He was sipping on those bad boys and
yeah, we had a good night and it was
probably one of our long, I think it
was the longest game that we played.
And I think our, our, our goal was to
go back to the human connection piece.
Our goal was to
Schedule the next poker
game before we left.
And I think because the game went
so long and people were kind of like
Paul: bailing out as
Tim: they went out, which was fine.
We just never did that and we should have
done it at the beginning of the game.
And I have to, I haven't done it
cause I've been busy this week, but
I have to go back on our thread and
be like, Hey, poker was awesome.
Right.
Then what, how does this
date work for everybody?
And then half the thread
will won't say anything.
The other, the other half will say yes or
no, we might have four or five players.
And then I'll have to postpone
it or cancel it and get
frustrated all over again.
Paul: So we were talking about
it a little bit at the table.
Cause I have, you know, to go
back to the, the, the angst
that's happening in my industry.
You have all these people that
are either getting laid off.
I think it's almost like more
merciful to be laid off right now.
Because the people that aren't getting
laid off are going through, you know,
in my circles at least, most of them
kind of hate in life a little bit.
Um, you know, they're really struggling
with, you know, the impending
doom of maybe another layoff.
But then also, you know, they lost a
couple of their colleagues and friends.
And then on top of that, they have to do
the work of those colleagues and friends.
And the thing that sucks about that, that
kind of burnout and you see it right.
When you reach out to somebody
and they ghost you that they
don't normally ghost you, right.
Or you try and have that human
connection and they're batting you away.
And the, the analogy that I made, it's
almost kind of like people get like.
Underconnected the way that like a
child gets overtired More like they're
they're overtired and they don't want
to sleep But the only thing that's
gonna make them feel better is fucking
sleep Yeah, just go to fuck this exactly
check them out a little triangle joke,
you know, never hurt nobody, right?
But you know what I mean like
like You get so burned out.
You can't even form connection to
get yourself out of the burnout.
Right.
And, and I was talking to one of
the, one of the guys at the table and
he was like, yeah, it's my brother.
Right.
Like, you know, I can't, I can't
get him to connect with me.
Tim: Who was that?
Paul: Uh, the Egyptian guy.
Oh yeah.
Um, and his, his brother.
Oh yeah.
He was overseas.
Yeah.
Lives overseas.
And, you know, is, you know, an
independent pharmacist, right.
Kind of going through it.
Yep.
And, uh, you know, he's like, I'm
trying to get him to go to church.
I'm trying to get them to read.
I'm trying to get them to do anything.
And it's hard.
Yeah.
Like
Tim: it feels like a, I almost
feel like that's, this is a
parent with, with young kids.
It's like the, the act of like getting
through the day and getting, um, You
know, dinner on the table and like
Paul: have them eat the dinner.
All this on the table
Tim: and then get them in bed is
just like, right, that's the miracle.
But that's kind of the analogy is like,
there's no room for anything else.
Right.
Right.
You know, there's no room for,
you know, bedtime stories.
Like I feel like we've
gotten away from that.
And it's like, those are, that's
kind of the analogy, like church
or whatever, you know, right.
Paul: Yeah, it's hard.
And I don't know what the answer is.
You know, like I really want
to pose the question of like.
Like, how do you help
somebody out of the hole?
You know, it's kind of like, um, to use
a movie analogy, cause I love, I love
movie references or remember, uh, what
dreams may come with Robin Williams?
Vague.
So the basic, the basic plot is that I
think his wife takes her own life and
it's, you know, the, the lore, Or the
belief in the religion is or in the in
the movie is that if you take your own
life You basically go to hell right
and hell is Not fire and brimstone.
It's like isolation right And robin
williams loses his life in a tragic
accident not of his own doing right?
So now he's in heaven, right?
And he's basically living
in a in a painting right?
Like everything can be created
and it's just imagination.
It's amazing You But he really misses
his wife and they basically tell him
like, sorry, but she's where she is.
And you are where you are.
And never the twain shall meet.
And then that becomes the, the
impetus of the, of the epic adventure
for him is to go and save her.
Right.
And damn, that's pretty deep.
Yeah.
It's a great movie.
It's maybe I haven't seen that movie.
It's amazing.
Um, I think cuba goading jr was in it.
Okay with as well um But he
has to go down and find her.
He has to basically go through hades And
find her And when he does he has to get
through to her And I don't remember the
I don't remember the climax of like how
he did that but You know, it was hard
You And that's kind of like, sometimes
what I think of when I think of some of
my friends that I care very deeply for
some of my colleagues that I cared very
deeply for of like, you're in hell dude.
And I can see it.
And there's almost nothing
I can do to help you.
And that, that sucks.
Tim: Yeah.
I think a lot of those, a
lot of those cases, like you
got to help yourself, right?
Whether it, you, you know, you can't, you
can't have someone pull you out of that.
You've got to pull your,
and it's sometimes that.
comes the hard way, right?
Whether it's, uh, you know, a mental
breakdown or a divorce or something
like that, it can really be a trigger.
Um, shake things up a little bit.
Yeah.
I just,
yeah, I just, I don't, I don't know why.
I don't know why it, it,
it just seems to be hard.
And I think everyone's just so, Oh,
so freaking busy.
And I am too.
I mean, like our kids are in sports and
like I said, the job is busy and my wife
started a new job and her hours are crazy.
And, but it's like, you have to have,
you have to have room for
these types of things.
And, um, yeah, it's just like,
It's just like pulling teeth,
you know, to, to get this game.
And it's just like, it's
Paul: just super frustrating.
Well, I mean, like, I think that
was one of the things that mom did
a really good job, at least with me.
And I don't know if
this is your experience.
It's so funny to talk to siblings
and you realize that you grew up like
totally different households, right?
You're like a couple of years apart.
And there are times where I'll
talk to, talk to our sister and
I'm like, holy shit, that's not the
way I remember the world at all.
Right?
Yeah.
but you know, I was unlucky
enough to sit ringside to a couple
of tragic things in our lives.
Right.
Um, children lost to close from close
friends, family of close friends.
Um, but in one such incident, I
remember, you know, I had told my
friend, I can't, can't sit with you
cause I have to go to school cause
perfect attendance isn't boring.
And I'm.
On the perfect attendance role.
And mom heard about this
immediately and corrected me.
And she said, blood is thicker than water.
Right.
I'll never forget that.
Tim: Oh, I never heard that story.
Paul: Yup.
So I, I sat with Kirk, you know,
so, but, uh, it was a good lesson.
And I think that's one of the reasons
why when someone reaches out and
says like, Hey, we're going to go
do something, I'm like game, right?
Like.
Blood is thicker than water.
Yeah, right and water isn't Water is
whatever is not connection not family.
Yeah, right It's your
checkbook, which is most shit,
Tim: right?
Which is most shit.
It's just shit.
That doesn't matter It's almost like to
go back to the financial plan and like
we spend our money and our time on shit
That doesn't matter right and we always
say like, oh, this is the dream trip or
whatever But we actually I always tell
the joke like You And I, I kind of do
it all about myself is like, you know,
like if, if, if I were to sit down and,
you know, Shane, I would sit down and
do the scripter plan and those three
questions, nowhere in that discussion,
would there be me saying, I want to lead
the league and like bottles of Brown.
However, I spent a good amount of
money on, on my bourbon collection.
At least that's how we, that's
how we kicked off tonight.
Yeah.
Um, So there's waste there, right?
So like if I'm holding the mirror up to
myself, I'm sounding like, Hey guy, like.
It's fine if that is important, but
like when we talked about this two
years ago or a year ago, you didn't
say you wanted to lead the league
in Bono Brown, but you're spending
a lot of time and money doing that.
So if that's important,
sweet, let's edit the plan.
Sure.
But the things that you said were
most important were taking these trips
or, Having this time for X, Y, and Z.
Have you done that?
Ooh, no, I haven't.
Right.
Right.
I don't have the money.
Well, it's because it's
sitting on the shelf.
Right.
So
Paul: now to cut back the other way
though, you and I have had great trips.
Yeah.
It's not, it's not the best
example, but yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
You know, and, and, and that's,
that's kind of the, the point
though is, you know, I think, I
think it is a good example because.
The, the bottles of brown, the dollars
in the bank, um, the trips, right.
The Instagram pictures.
Yeah.
Right.
It's, it's to go back to the, to the
example of like, are you genuine?
Right.
You know, um, are you doing
this for genuine connection
or are you doing it for likes?
Are you doing it because you're
greedy or are you doing it
because you want to be generous?
Yeah.
Are you doing it because you, a,
uh, a hankering for a collection
or are you doing it because you
want that collection to share?
And that's, I mean, only you
can answer that question, right?
Yeah.
I mean, I can answer the question
from my perspective, right?
Our trips when it comes to going to the,
To the bourbon trail have been, those are
some of the highlights of my adult life.
Tim: Yeah.
They're freaking awesome.
Paul: Amazing.
Yeah.
Tim: And it, and it has everything right.
Because it's, it's, it's hangs.
I do genuinely enjoy bourbon and the
art of it and making up ridiculous
tasted notes and, and, you know, nose in
palette finish seeing, you know, learn
about different, I genuinely enjoy it.
Um, However, there are probably some
times where I'm like, man, shitty week.
Let me just, let me just go buy a
bottle and it's like empty calories.
Right.
And, and a little
Paul: retail therapy,
Tim: a little retail therapy.
And again, like, I feel like, I, I feel
like if I, I probably take that back.
If I, if I, if I went through the
script, you're playing questions.
I probably would say
like, Hey, I, you know.
Every couple years, if not
every year, I want to do a
bourbon run and do some hangs.
And we talked about it on this trip, just
so we need, we need to go down there.
So, but it's, it's, to me, it's
like, I mean, I love good bourbon,
but it's more about the hangs and,
or the hunt of like trying to find a
cool bottle or, or things like that.
Um, Well, and I think for me,
Paul: I think for me that one of
the things that I love, I love
about you, I love our relationship.
I think we have one of the best
relationships that brothers can
have, but you know, multiple times
over this particular trip, but this
isn't, this isn't unique to this trip.
I'm like, Hey, can I, you know, can I get
a, can I get a, a dram off that stag or
can I get a dram off the Eagle, right?
I closed that sale and I was like, I want
to, I want to drink some Eagle cause I
gifted some to Rory and we were gonna, we
were gonna, you know, raise a glass across
time zones and What did you tell me?
Do you remember what you said?
He said, you don't even have
to ask anything you want.
Just go ahead.
Open bar, open bar, dude.
Um, but like, that's such
a cool posture, right?
Like it reminds me of an, and my favorite
Christmas movie is a Christmas Carol.
I love the arc of Scrooge, but
one of the, one of the second,
which version is the best?
Um, I think the, the one
with, um, is it Alistair Sims?
That's the right answer.
Yeah.
Tim: Yeah.
Filmed in like 1952 or
something like that.
Yeah.
That's the, that's the correct answer.
Yeah.
Paul: And then second, close second would
be a McKee's Christmas Carol for me.
Tim: Also good.
I think that the Jim
Carrey one is also good.
It's not bad.
Um,
Paul: yeah.
I like the musical one too.
That's fun.
Tim: I don't know if I've
ever watched the music.
You
Paul: have that, that used
to put it on all the time.
Oh really?
Yeah.
It's been a long time though.
You would have to, you'd
have to dig it out.
But, but my favorite secondary character,
I don't know if it's my absolute favorite,
but on my Mount Rushmore of of characters
in a Christmas Carol is Fezzy Wigs.
Small part, but he is the
antithesis of Scrooge, right?
He's a capitalist.
Uses his capital for good.
Yep.
And to promote joy and happiness
and, and human flourishing.
Right.
Which is eventually the archetype
that's crucial, you know, redeems
himself into, I don't know if
anybody can hear Benji snoring.
Benji snoring.
Yeah.
He's just right here.
Just,
Tim: it would actually, I hope,
I hope that mics do pick it up.
I, yeah.
I don't think that they will, but I,
I, it would be funny if they do, he's,
I might just put my mic up right to
his nose just to get some, just to
Paul: get it
Tim: on . Yeah.
Paul: But.
But that's, the attitude of Fezzy Wigs is
the attitude that I try to, to embody when
it comes to when I have, when I have gain.
Yep.
Um, and I think it's, you know,
what you have done, right?
I've always felt welcomed and I've always
felt, uh, included and that you give,
you know, um, freely of yourself and
of, of your, of your bourbon, right?
Of your material possession.
Um, and I think that's, that's
kind of family, but it's not just,
it should not just be family.
It should not be brothers.
Tim: Yeah.
I mean, I, I, Not to further
pat myself on the back.
I appreciate the kind of words,
but like I say that to the
poker bros too is like open bar.
Like if you see something, pour it.
Um, and it's kind of like,
you can't take it with you.
Like it's meant to be enjoyed together.
Like I would get
Paul: like that documentary neat.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
Dude, watch that.
Don't cry.
I dare you.
Oh my God.
What an amazing documentary.
Tim: But I would, I would get as much joy.
Like I would get like if we if we use
the bourbon example, you know, I know
that like you appreciate a good pour and
you appreciate good whiskey, but even
if you didn't, even if you were like
a newbie, um, like I've had, um, Like
Shea's brother and cousin from Brazil
come in, they don't know anything about
bourbon, but they're like interested
and they're like, I'm like pouring shit.
And I'm like, you know, and they're
probably thinking this stuff is
terrible because it's like really
strong, strong, no palate, but
they, I think they get into it.
And like, I'm like, yeah, like,
um, to me, that's, it's again about
human connection and sharing and,
and, you know, imparting some of my,
again, amateur knowledge on, on that.
I just like.
You know, I, I know, I know there are
some people and I think for the, there,
there's a guy that I follow on whiskey
too, but I, I haven't been doing as
much whiskey too, because I think the
more whiskey tube I, I watch the more
that I buy, but he's based in Jersey
somewhere and he's saving a bottle,
like a, like a George T stack bottle
for when the Eagles won the Superbowl.
Oh shit, so he just cracked it.
He probably cracked it, um.
Go birds.
But I think that's cool, too.
Like, if you have a bottle,
right, a special bottle like that
that you're saving, that's cool.
But yeah, for the most part, like I look
at mine and like to be honest, like I have
so much whiskey, like I'll never even if
I would never drink it in my lifetime.
Sure.
I feel like that's how
much I have right now.
And I, I, I, I think people are
going to think that we're alcoholics.
I literally just drink on the weekends.
Like I don't drink usually during
the week outside, maybe today.
Um, special key breaking all the rules
this week, but, but to me, it's, you
know, it's, it's kind of literal.
like grease and a good sit, a
good hang, a good conversation.
Um, and I think the whiskey community
is about like sharing and, and again,
having that human experience that I
think we lack, you know, and, and,
and the nice thing about bourbon
is like, you know, you're not like,
you're not, you're not doing shots.
It's a, it's meant to
be savored and enjoyed.
Right.
And, and again, I think it goes
back to like, We're in such a shot,
um, environment and I, culture.
Culture, that's the right word.
And I think, you know, slowing down
and, and savoring, enjoying, um,
we need more of that, you know.
Well,
Paul: and I think, I think one of the
things that is kind of, again, I think
culture is, is culture's so important.
I've talked about this several times
in the podcast of, um, like the
episode that we, I had with Gray.
Um, or just talk about how.
My squad at Love Every, you know, we
had this culture of delivering, right.
Of looking out for each other of like
pulling together the, you know, when we,
when we had to make sure that we, we stuck
the landing every, every single time.
But that culture came from, you
know, kind of shared experiences and
shared lore and it built over time.
And I think that that's something
that you see in the bourbon community.
I mean, you think about when you, when
you have a good bottle of bourbon,
That doesn't come fast, right?
Decent bourbon.
What's the, what's the, what's the age
statement on a, on a decent bourbon?
What's Buffalo Trace?
That's not an age statement,
but what's the average?
Tim: No, I'm probably four or five years.
Four to five years.
Paul: Eagle's ten.
Right.
Right.
That Weller, that was twelve.
Twelve years.
Right.
Now you probably reached an inflection
point where, you know, 25 year bourbon
is probably a little bit too much.
Tim: Yeah, I think, I think the The
Pappy, what is it, Pappy 25 years,
like the unicorn bottle, but I
actually think Pappy 25 is not great.
Yeah, and you, did you
have the Pappy 25 in the
Paul: flight that I got you?
Tim: I think so.
Paul: Yeah.
Tim: I mean, it's not
bad, but no, it's not bad.
I'm not going to, I'm not going to
throw it out, but I'm not going to
kick it out of everything crackers.
Yeah.
It's, it's a little bit
too long in the barrel.
Yep.
So I think, uh, depending on what type
of, what type of Brown it is, you know,
whether it's a rye or, um, like a bourbon
or, or whatever, I think that, I mean,
you can get some really good bottles
that are under 10 years, but I think
that 10 to 15 is probably the sweet spot.
Yeah.
But
Paul: that's a
Tim: I
Paul: mean
Tim: a
Paul: decade
Tim: takes a shit ton of time, right a
lot of patience Right a lot of you know
Angel share a lot of those Yeah, longer
they're in the barrel the the less, you
know liquid comes out of the barrel Yep,
Paul: but like all of that is I
think actually what is infused
into the bourbon culture, right?
Is Like, it's not an accident that, that
the bourbon culture is, is, you know,
um, a culture of savoring, a culture
of, of not necessarily community, but
I mean, that was one of the things
that you hear on the trail all the
time is like, these distilleries
look out for each other, right.
You know, it's one of the things
that I love about Oregon wine.
Oregon wine is different than a lot
of other wine in the country because
Oregon wine is all about, you know,
when someone's, when someone's
equipment goes down, they share, right?
They're not trying to like
get one over on the next guy.
Yeah.
Right.
They're all trying to
like prop each other up.
Yeah.
And, I don't know.
I, I think, you know, to go back to the
birds again, it's the same thing, right?
We are stronger together, right?
It's a team sport.
No man is an Island.
No man is an Island.
Right.
And, and I think the more genuine you can
be as a leader, like Sirianni, like Hertz,
the stronger those bonds, The more that
you have that Echo 419 culture, right?
That you deliver.
Tim: I think though, to
kind of go back to your,
your comments about, you know, you have
friends that are kind of stuck in the mud.
Yeah.
I think when you're in that space,
you definitely operate
more from like a, Scarcity.
Scarcity mindset.
Yeah.
And, and I think we,
we've talked about this.
I think we've talked about this with
like UBI, It's like when you're when
you're just trying to like make it day
to day whether it's money or Mental Like
keeping it keeping your shit together
I think the studies show that your iq
actually goes down like your ability to
kind of problem solve and think through
things with clarity Is obstruct it?
Yep and You know so I think that like
You know your You're at a disadvantage.
Right.
And I, but I, I think like, I think
what, and we've talked about this
with like mental health and bipolar is
like, and I've had clients that have
had this too, or it's like, like you,
Tim are part of my like structure,
support structure, support structure.
Like I know that, you know, I'm
paraphrasing, you know, some
conversations I've had with clients.
Like I know that like I need to
eat well, sleep well, exercise.
Not do stupid shit with my money and I
have different people and systems in place
to kind of keep me Regulate it regulate it
and even with that I'm gonna go like this
I'm gonna go up and down and like it's
just a cyclical thing oftentimes, right?
And that's the that's the the
unfortunate nature of bipolar but
I think like Everybody needs that.
Yep Like I'm not bipolar,
but I still need to do that.
I talk about the dailies, right?
I need to do that.
And I need to regulate myself.
And I think part of that is just having
like, like a social outlet outlet,
which I can't, I think is hard if
you don't, if you're transplant, you
know, and it's like, I don't, I can't
run down the street and like go hang
out with my can't sit in the garage
and hang out with my high school
buddies or my college buddies, right?
Like that doesn't exist for me.
So I have to find ways, I have to
find ways to construct that myself.
And you know, one of my goals the
last couple of years is to have more
roots and social, and then that's
where the poker game came from.
Like, I like to play cards, you know, I
bought a table, some, some cool chips.
Um, You know, but it's been a slog
of all the goals that I've had
over the last years, it's probably
one of the ones that I'm just not,
you know, Stick in the landing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's just been, and I'm like,
what the hell do I need to do?
You know, to, to get this off the ground.
And again, we, we, it's, it's, it, but
like when we play, it's pretty awesome.
Like we have a good time.
It's not like, it's not like it's bad.
Worst.
That's the
Paul: part that's the, that kind of
like stings is cause I have, I have
something that I call bourbon buddies.
And that's been same thing.
It's like kind of pulling
pulling teeth, right?
Like just, but when you get
together and you're having fun,
everyone's having fun, right?
Like, it's not like we get together
and go, oh man, this is lame, but
get together and be like, man, what's
the next time we get to do this?
Right.
And then for some reason, you
know, the iron doesn't stay hot.
You don't strike.
Tim: Yeah.
And like, and even like you go back
to bourbon, like, Like, I kind of just
want to like hang out with other bros
or, or, or bras and like do blinds.
Yeah.
Right.
But where, how do I do that?
Right.
Like, I know there's things like
meetups and things like that,
that I guess I could figure out.
Um, but yeah, it's just, there's
just no easy button for that.
Like, you know, I think Shay
has done this really well.
Since we've moved, when we, since
we moved from Maryland to Ohio that,
and maybe it's different for women, I
don't know, but she, she's done it well
through like her running community.
Like she had a great community in
Baltimore and we lived there and
then she kind of plugged in the
community in here as made friends.
Like she's done well at that.
And I kind of envy that a bit, you know?
Um, yeah, I don't know.
I think, yeah.
It's one of those things that, again,
you like go back to the point of
like, man, we have a really good time,
but it just feels hard, hard to do.
Paul: And well, and there's a lot
of energy that goes into creating
community, creating culture.
Yeah.
Um, you know, like I've
got the expansion, right.
That Slack group and you know, it's a
growing thing and people like joining,
but it's, it's not without effort, right?
Like I still have to be in there.
You know, prompting and kind of like
cultivating connection and whatnot.
Um, it doesn't just happen
without, without input.
Um, and it's interesting cause, cause
Rory, Rory was like, why don't we
just use like a, like an auto reminder
on Fridays to say like, Hey, what's
people's intentions for the weekend?
And an auto reminder on Mondays to
say like, Hey, what's the good news?
And, you know, I was
like, that's a good idea.
I don't think it's going to work though
because for some reason when it's a robot
that's prompting you You don't really give
a shit Right, like you just ignore the
bots I think and I think we're going to
ignore the bots even more as we get more
bots Right as they become more ubiquitous.
They become more ubiquitous, right?
Um, but like at the same time is is
a bot, um Is a bot the answer Right.
You know, could you, could you have to
use AI tech, you know, and technology
to help facilitate human connection?
Is that possible?
Or maybe it's just as we
free up cycles, right?
Um, you know, is it possible for
us to free up cycles so that we can
spend more time on what do you mean?
I don't know that term.
What do
Tim: you mean by free up cycles?
Is that like, so
Paul: like, so like if,
is that like free up time?
Yeah.
Like if, if, if AI can help you,
you know, increase your output by
300 percent in, you know, 50 percent
less time, then you have a bunch
of time in your hands potentially.
Or do you just have to, is that how it
Tim: works though?
It kind of depends because you
think about it like like if you
think about I and again, I'm not
I have this is a very uninformed
Take on like Productivity and things
like that, but like as we've become
more productive more productive.
It
Paul: seems like we're just as
busy I know and that's the point.
That's the problem, right?
Cuz like because then then that
lever cuts against you Right.
Because like, if you slip up
even a little bit, the person who
doesn't slip up is going to be
way more productive than you are.
Right.
If you take a break, you
know, think about it, right.
If for every minute I can get a thousand
units of productivity out, whereas
before for every minute I could get 10
units of productivity out or a hundred
units productivity out for every minute
I'm down, some dude has eaten my lunch
and they're not just eating my lunch.
They're in all my groceries for the year.
Right.
That culture sucks.
Right, like, how do we get But
isn't that what, that's kind
of what we're in though, right?
That is exactly what we're in, right?
I mean, think about, think
about how much But is it kind of
Tim: like, is it kind of like the
singularity of like, Like, are we,
are we kind of going to that, Like
apex is zero where like, like, like
eventually everyone will be phased
out of the, out of the workforce.
You'll have one guy that's doing
everything and then he'll be phased out.
And then the singularity is like
the AI is doing everything right.
I mean, and then, and then maybe that's
when we, we, we were like, Oh, okay.
Like human connection.
That's going to wait, we got
to wait until that, or maybe
there is a, an inflection point.
With that, where, you know, 80
percent of people aren't working.
Paul: And yeah, I don't know.
I mean, it, it does bother me some,
you know, like what happens when,
when, you know, I, I was thinking
about this recently that what I
was really good at was processing.
What I am really good at
is processing information.
I'm also, thankfully I'm
good at human connection.
I'm good at leadership.
And I think that those skills will
be valuable in the future, but the
skill of processing information.
That's being devalued, right?
Because AIs can do that
better than I can do it.
Um, but what happens when you
start to basically just take large
sections of skill and just say,
don't need that anymore, right?
Your dexterity, you know, your,
your fine craftsmanship, dexterity.
Don't need that anymore.
Don't care about that.
Right.
You know, your ability
to pull wire, right?
Don't need that anymore.
We've got robots to do that.
Yep.
And some of these things you
don't want to have to do.
Right.
You know, I, I would love for there
to be a world where, you know, you had
infantry guys that were manning drones
instead of infantry guys taking bullets.
Right.
I'd be all for that.
I would love to never have
to hear about another Joe.
Tim: Well, I was taking a step further.
It'd be nice if we just didn't
have, give my hippie take.
Yeah.
We
Paul: didn't have war.
That would be nice, but like, but it's
almost kind of like, you know, I was
talking about this with Ola in one of
our episodes where it's like, AI is not
going to be the end all be all right.
Because the, you know, I really do
believe that it's, you know, the
problems are always the problems.
It's the problems of scarcity.
It's the problems of exploitation.
It's the problems of security.
Um, and it's almost kind of like,
no matter how much you create,
you need we have this like
incessant need to hoard, right?
What do you mean by that?
Well, like, you know, we, we produce more
wealth, like an individual household.
You pouring more browns.
Okay.
All right.
Um, hook me up an individual household.
And I don't know the actual numbers
on this, but I'm going to just
shoot from the hip on this one.
But I would bet you an
individual household in.
Modern 2025 produces more wealth
than like an entire kingdom would
have back in like medieval Europe.
You know what I mean?
Like the amount of productivity that two
people in modern day America produce.
Tim: Yeah.
Paul: You know, a farmer produces
probably one farmer with their,
with their, you know, electronic
combines and all that good shit.
Probably produces more
material wealth than like whole
villages would produce, right?
And yet somehow it's not enough.
How is that?
I think it's because we have this
incessant need to always have more.
Right?
And like if you look at the great
traditions, The great traditions
almost always are trying to get you
to be like, Hey, stop doing that.
That's where unhappiness is.
Right.
Are you talking about like
religion and philosophy?
Yeah, like attachment and.
Right.
Tim: Yeah.
Paul: And, and maybe that's
an intractable problem.
Maybe we never solved that.
Like we've had the answer
for 3000 years, 4, 000 years.
And yet somehow, no matter what we
produce, no matter how fast we can
produce it, It's like empty calories.
It's never enough.
Tim: Yeah.
Paul: I don't know.
Tim: Yeah, it's interesting.
I don't know
Paul: if we've ever talked about that.
I didn't see the bottle.
I tasted it.
I knew exactly what it was.
Oh yeah.
Oh man.
The Eagle.
Uh, my favorite old
reliable, old reliable.
Oh, it's so good.
Tim: Yeah.
I wonder where that comes from.
Like I remember, I don't know why
this, this might not have any.
Relevance, but like, I remember taking Mr.
Grant's like history class.
And the question he posed
at the B, I think it was, I
think it was world history.
I think I was maybe a sophomore,
sophomore, junior in high
school, something like that.
It was probably a sophomore,
sophomore, probably.
The question he poses the class and
really the beginning of the class is
like, what's the greatest invention.
Civilization
and a lot of people were throwing
shit at, what do you think, what
do you think the answer, at least
to him was For civilization?
Yeah.
Farming.
It's farming.
Paul: Yeah.
Tim: Because that allowed us to
kind of transition away from always
being on the edge of starvation.
Yeah.
And, and no nomadic, you know,
hand to mouth, um, to where
we could actually settle and.
still hunt, but like farm
crops, silo crops, right.
You know, like create stores, right.
Because there's always going
to be a rainy day, right?
Things happens in cycling season.
Yeah.
It's feast and famine.
You know, we tie that right back to,
to business and being an entrepreneur.
Like it's just the fact of life, right?
So maybe that's where it comes from.
And I think if you overlay like the human
element, And you'll, and you'll, uh,
you know, you'll relate to this like,
like those moments, like wins
are sweet, but those moments when
you lose, that's when you learn.
It's not just when you learn
it, they just hit harder.
Yeah.
It's like go back to poker everyone
remembers their bad beats except for
me, I guess I don't remember quad aces
I just oh my god, that's so good But
everybody like best handle ever nobody.
Nobody typically nobody remembers Like
the the big pasta they raked or the
big win that they had in business.
They remember Losing that client
or losing that deal, right?
It's, it's that loss aversion, which maybe
answers the question of like, why isn't
anything enough because we always are kind
of looking around the corner and be like,
well, it's, maybe it's not going to be as,
Paul: as good as, you know.
Well, and what's wild to me is like,
if you think about like, if you
play this out and we don't figure
something out like UBI, right?
Yeah.
Like how, how does an economy adjust
where skill sets are being phased
out fair so that people can retrain.
Right?
Like, what do you do with that?
It's like, hey, you know, we don't,
we need 90 percent less truck drivers.
Right?
Teach them to code.
Yeah.
Now we need to teach the
coders to truck drive.
Right.
Not really though.
But you see what I'm saying though?
Like, like if it takes a human being two
to three years to retrain on something.
And every two to three years as a new
industry is just getting obliterated.
That's a problem as a serious
Tim: problem.
I mean, you think about like retail,
I know you, you think you've, you've
said this and it hasn't really
happened here yet, but you go into
a restaurant in, in Oregon and like,
there's no, there's no server, right.
They've kind of revamped
that as part of like COVID.
But now you're starting to see
like, it's not necessarily, It's AI.
Right.
Like I, they built a Wendy's right
down the street from my office and I
stopped by there for lunch the other
day and it was all like, I wasn't
taught, like I did the drive thru
and I was talking, I was talking
to a robot and I'm like, holy shit.
Yeah.
Like those were jobs.
Yeah.
Now before they were like jobs
for the most part, like high
school kids and things like that.
Right.
Um, but that all has a trickle effect.
Right.
And I think, I think to your point, like,
I think we'll get to this point where
we're phasing out jobs at a rate that
we're just not going to know what to do.
Right.
You know, and part of that is
exciting cause it maybe frees us
up to do other things, but not
everyone has the chops for that.
Right.
Like, and I think, I think
you potentially see people be
Paul: crushed by that.
So like, what do you do?
Right.
Well and that's kind of my point
is that like maybe the evolutionary
right answer was always to
hoard all your wealth, right?
It's not to be generous.
Maybe that's the evolutionarily correct
thing to do because you know a tsunami
comes and you're the last man standing.
Now if that's the case, fuck it.
I don't even care.
Pour the whiskey.
Yeah.
It's kind of
Tim: depressing.
Paul: Exactly.
Right.
Do you want to be the last man
standing in a world like that?
Fuck that noise.
Right.
My thing and you know, I'm, I talked
to you a little bit about this,
that, that shield and spear strategy.
I just want to get as
many people in the boat.
Tim: Yeah.
Paul: If, if that's, if that's the
world, if that's the tsunami, build
an arc, get people with you, right?
Ride it out and see what
happens on the other
Tim: side.
Yeah, I do.
I do think that, you know,
we kind of talked about like,
what's, what's the future.
I think it's a good exercise
to kind of talk about.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Damn right.
Um, what does the future hold?
Which is kind of man's, right?
You know, always, always a curiosity
about the future, like, I do think
that there, and we've talked about
this with some of your ideas, um,
I do think there is a future, like,
Biz, like business models that are kind
of centered around human connection
and how to make those easier.
Um, but I, I do think that, that there,
there's always going to be, um, Um,
I think, I think being able to problem
solve what you, and I think that's
what you're trying to try and do.
Like, we don't necessarily know all
the problems that we're trying to
solve, but like we want to keep those.
I think, I think it's
easy to get despondent.
Yeah.
Especially when you're seeing
like what you're seeing.
Yeah.
When I, in my industry, AI is like,
it is traded and things like that.
And I think most people are like,
I think gone are the days of like
hot stock tip and things like that.
Like, like the shit that you see in like
Wolf of Wall Street, like that day's dead.
Right.
And that
Paul: actually might actually
be because of things like AI.
Yeah.
Right.
Where they're just, the elasticity
in the market is basically gone.
Yeah.
You know, like the slop is gone.
Tim: Yeah.
So, uh, you know, I'm seeing.
I feel like every tool that I'm using
now, there's some type of like AI
enhancement that's to make us more,
more efficient and things like that,
which I don't know is necessarily true.
Um, but I think those become again,
easier and more ubiquitous, you
know, embedded in those tools.
And I'm excited about that.
You know, one of the, one of the tools
that we use is, you know, like if
you're a client we're meeting virtually,
there's a, there's a bot in there.
I'm And that allows me to be more
present and focus on the conversation
that we're having because before I'm
like writing notes, like if I don't
write it down, it didn't happen, right?
So it allows me to be more present and I
can go back to that video and review it.
I can ask it questions, Hey,
what's the dumb shit that
trip said about X, Y, and Z.
And it'll, it'll kind of recall back.
It'll do a nice recap email.
So it makes me look smarter and like that.
I like I listened and it
does great news for my CRM.
Like I love that shit.
Yeah, because it makes it us
more efficient, but like with
efficiency is like, oh, well,
maybe I can serve more clients.
That's the business.
Like maybe I can serve more
clients, but then you lose
some of the human connection.
So there's there's a trade off there,
but Like I get excited about that.
I don't care about the trade in Like I
said, like I think the robots just like
the the chess master is gonna be beat
by the machines gonna happen, right?
I'm not gonna beat an algorithm in terms
of trade in I but it's like if you can't
beat them join them type of thing, right?
Like I don't want to say it's
commodity, but that's, it's
commoditized thing, right?
It's the human, the life plan.
That's, that's, what's
going to win the day.
I'm excited about some of these
tools, but you know, some of the
conversations I had had with you have
been eyeopening cause I'm like, Holy shit.
Like what you're experiencing
Paul: is not what I'm experiencing.
Isn't it wild how like, like three
years ago I would have never,
I would have never called us.
I didn't think that the
impact would, would happen.
So, but, but maybe what it was.
is that there was such a Delta and they're
willing to, you know, big companies like
Meta and Google and you know, whoever
else are willing to take the sales force.
You know, they just
announced a big layoff.
It was a 15 percent something like that.
It was a thousand.
It was a thousand jobs.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Which I was guessing it was
like, it's gotta be like 10%.
Right.
Um, I've become wildly off on that
number, but it's a lot of people,
it's a thousand people, Hey Bot, can
Tim: you, Bot listen to
this, can you fact check?
Paul: Fact check, fact check trip.
But, you know, I think what they're
probably looking at, cause they, they
have, they've got some smart nerds, and
their smart nerds are probably like,
you know, if we move now we probably
can, can get at the top of this wave.
And we can, we can scoop up a lot
of, of payroll liquidity, right?
And it might be bumpy at
first, but we'll figure it out.
Right.
And we'll be ahead.
Right.
Um, but I didn't think it was
going to happen that fast.
I was worried about this.
I was worried about
this like 10 years ago.
I remember when I joined that
entrepreneurial group to,
that kind of gave me some of
the skills that I have now.
Yeah.
That was, Largely the impetus is
like, I don't want to be, I don't
want to be replaced by a robot.
I need to be able to
figure something else out.
And thankfully I did that because
like, I don't think I would be able to,
to close sales like I can right now.
I mean, it's not like I'm killing
it, but like, you know, you put me
up in front of, you put me at the
plate and you give me a good pitch.
I can, I can hit it right.
Like, you know, if there's no money
there, there's no money there.
Tim: Yeah.
I mean, there are things that.
Yeah, there, there, there's structure
and techniques and things that I
think good people that are in sales
knowing can do, uh, which I think
again, well, I think being able to
sell will be a human thing, right?
Um, because I think it
has to involve emotion.
Um, but yeah, I think like if you
can be compelling and be a good
listener and those, I think are
all cornerstones of being able to
sell, you'll be in a good spot.
Paul: Um, but like if I, if I hadn't
done that eight years ago or whatever it
was that I got trained up on that stuff,
I'd be in a much different position.
Tim: But I think, I think the, I think
the thing that I think is really, really,
really important to, to think about
is, so we talk about like grit, right?
I think the other thing
is like flexibility.
Yes.
And I kind of relate
this back to like, um,
Like retirement planning, it's like,
oh, like, you know, how, how can we, how
can you build a successful retirement?
Like, or how can you go about
this and like have success
and again, define success.
But like, I think one of the tried and
true things are about retirement is like
the, the clients that are most successful
are those that are most flexible.
So as the example, a huge risk.
So I'm going to nerd out on,
on finance stuff for a second.
A huge risk in retirement or at
least approach when retiring was
called sequence of return risk.
So this is basically the risk of
like when you go to retire, the
market is down, like is down.
So think of like, Oh, 809.
Right.
So 0809 I took over.
So I, one of the, um, So I
was working for Sears Kmart.
I interviewed for Sears Kmart cause
they, I had a great interview and it
was operational leadership, kind of
lead in others in a warehouse set in.
And, you know, they kind of sold
me on this idea that we're going to
vie for retail supremacy with like
Walmart and Amazon, which is hilarious.
Now, talk about life coming at you quick.
Um, and they gone, I came
on as like a trainee.
And then a year later, one of
the people, uh, on the management
team retired and I interviewed
and I took like the open position.
So this was like 08, 09, like as like the
subprime mortgage crisis was going on.
So if you imagine you have a million
dollar portfolio hypothetical, so
this lady, um, and I don't know
what she had, but let's say she
had a million dollar portfolio.
So.
If your portfolio, if you wake up
the next morning, your portfolio 600,
000 because the market drops 30, 40
percent or whatever, and then you're
starting to withdraw 40, 50, 60K.
You're locking those in.
You're, like, you, it's not sustainable.
So the timing of how, of when
you retire is as important as
some of the other, how you claim
social security, how you allocate.
Right, right.
like how you distribute from a tax
perspective, it's hugely important.
So like what, and I think she did, I
stayed in touch with her afterward.
I think she did have to go back to
work because she just couldn't sustain.
Right.
So like the sequence of return
risks is huge, but a lot of people
are like, I hit 65, I'm out, right.
I hit 60, I'm out, like,
I can't do this anymore.
And it's like, like, take a breath, right?
And to go back to this.
This discussion, like sometimes
in, in, in pharmacists, I work,
I don't know if we've said this,
but like our niche is pharmacists.
So if you're a pharmacist out there,
you're a financial pharmacist.
That's our, that's our shameless plug.
We work with a pharmacist
all over the country.
We work with a lot of different
types of people, but work with
reproach with primarily pharmacists.
I brother, very
Paul: handsome.
He has a great podcast.
You should check it out sometime.
Tim: Yeah.
You're a financial pharmacist.
We've been doing it for a number of years.
Um, but.
Sometimes pharmacists are like, man,
I, I, I really don't like my job.
I want to, you know, I
want to do something else.
What can I do?
And you know, there's alternatives out
there, but it's not like if they equate
it to like an, like an annual salary
or like an hourly rate, they're like,
well, like that's half of what I make.
Right.
And it's like, I got it,
but like flexibility.
Right.
Um, you know, when I started my
own business, I went from making,
you Six figure income to like
I was basically making wage.
Yeah.
And yeah, well when I changed
industries, it was probably six
figure income and I, I made a third.
And then when I started my
business, I was making nothing.
Right.
And, and I'm not saying like, um, um,
whatever, but like I had the, I had the
bandwidth, the runway, the, The ability
to take a step back to go forward.
Right.
And I think sometimes, like if, if
I'm a developer and I'm making 200
K and all of a sudden I'm like, I'm
worth a hundred cause that's what the
market says, or 120, like I'm probably
pissed off about that, you know?
And I'm, or I'm despondent
and, or I'm paralyzed.
Right, right.
And I think that easier said than done,
but I think the ability to, to, to be It's
so important no matter what you're doing.
And I think sometimes we're like, well,
it kind of goes back to the loss aversion.
And you're like, well, like.
What do you mean?
It's not going to be like it's been right.
Like that sucks.
I just spent all this time
building the skillset, all this
money to build a skill site.
Probably on my early
Paul: 40s.
This is the time when we're
supposed to be making it rain.
Yeah.
Tim: And I have, I have a family, I
have kids like WTF me, like this sucks.
And, and I think we talked about this,
like you're going to have some, a
lot of people that are like, I'm out.
Right.
And I'm going to do whatever.
And, um, And maybe they're going to
have a lot of real estate agents.
So, yeah, but even that market,
even that industry is, but you
know, and, and maybe that's just
the natural order of things, right?
Like we don't have milk milkman or
people that deliver ice anymore.
Right.
Right.
It's just, you know,
jobs evolve and change.
And now we have, you know, Chao, you know,
whatever the, the AI engineer that you
got, the job title that you came across
the other day, it's like, yeah, chief,
Paul: chief, chao, chao,
Tim: something like that.
And I think that's going to
come in a rapid pace, right?
And And I think again, the people
that are going to be most successful,
I think are going to be flexible,
have grit, be able to pivot, but
it's pivot to what, like, that's the
thing that's really hard, you know?
And, and again, yeah,
Paul: I mean like first episode
you and I were talking about, I
was talking about stark automation
back then and I'm basically like, I
don't know if that's the right move.
Siri just came out with
their update, right?
Where it's like infusing
chat GPT with Siri.
Right.
She stole your move.
Stole my move, man.
I mean it happened and, and you know,
of course Apple is going to have the
capacity to do something like that.
But, um, you know, it's, that's
one, that's going to be one of the
tricks is like, it's like musical
chairs where the chairs are just
getting ripped out so fucking fast.
Yeah.
Right.
And one of the things that I was
reading recently was, you know, the,
the opportunity is going to be a niche.
the opportunity is going to be in.
Can you understand the financial plan
or market better than anybody else?
And can you build a tool that
no one else can build or that no
one else is even thinking about?
It's not that they can't
build it because they can.
It's like, can you get there and
build something and get market share
before anybody else gets there?
Yeah.
Um, the trick with that though
is, um, human connection.
Like how do you get into the spaces?
Yeah.
It's networking.
It's.
Communication it's it's
Tim: listening.
Yeah, right, which may be for a lot of
people that are listening this that's
like a heart That's a that's a heavy lift.
It is a hard thing to do because it's
not a natural right, you know It's
not necessarily a natural skill Yeah,
Paul: well, I mean and that's that's
one of the things that's interesting is
You know when you think about your
prototypical developer And what they
were, what they're good at, they're
good at solving problems with, you
know, coded language basically.
Right.
Um, that piece is being
devalued very quickly.
Yep.
And you know, it's kind
of like the same thing.
It's, it's ironic, but it's
like, you know, teach the
truck drivers to write code.
Right.
Um,
Like what, what do you do with a bunch of
like kind of introverted problem solvers?
I don't know.
You know, I mean like some of
them are going to figure it out.
Some of them are going to
continue to be developers, right?
And there'll be highly productive AI
co pilots and things of that nature.
Um, but you're going to have a lot of
people that just, I think hang up their
spurs and you know, they had a good run.
But they're kind of like, they're kind of
like an old lineman that, you know, got
into the league but never made it big, had
a couple of years and then just hangs it
up and becomes like a high school teacher.
Tim: Yeah.
You
Paul: know?
Tim: Yeah.
I think like, you know, I think the,
the thing that gives me hope a bit is
like there's going to be industries
and jobs that like are created that
we don't even know about today.
Right.
Yep.
I know that in the financial
world, And, and maybe this ties
in the UBI a little bit is like,
you know, one of the more under
Paul: Universal basic income.
Tim: Yeah.
One of the more of the undervalued
and like where there's a need is
like, we're gonna have a lot of older
people that need care, you know?
And, and, and like physical, like people
that are physically, and maybe UBI holds
that because it's something like 40
percent of care that's given is unpaid.
Yeah, by a family member, right?
So if you have UBI that kind of cover
some of that and values, you know,
a stay at home mom, a caregiver,
that type of thing, like that, that
type of thing, like fires me up.
I think that's something
that we should look at.
Um, but just like being able to have
people that are doing that work, right.
And I'm not saying that's what a
coder is going to do, but like, but
I think that industry is probably
ripe for some type of disruption.
And we've talked about
this, like, I think we're.
Where your world's going to go is probably
like the, the heavily regulated industry.
Paul: So you're going to have a lot of,
I think you're going to have a lot of
brain share that's going to head towards
solving problems that haven't been solved
because they weren't easy to solve.
Right.
Yeah.
And that's good.
that's going to be super good.
Like, so you're going to have a
lot of advancement in medical,
you're going to have a lot of
meds, maybe an aerospace, right?
Like it'd be really nice if we could
solve some of these big problems, but
they've been hard to solve because
they've been regulated and that's
going to be a safe space to, to
put brain, you know, put brains in.
Yeah.
Right.
But I don't know.
It's, it's interesting times.
It's really interesting times.
but
Tim: I mean, what, what do you,
what do you get a sense of?
Like, you know, as you, as you're
pulling people into the boat and
you're kind of building, building this
team out or this cohort, like what's
the, yeah, that's a good question.
Paul: What's the outlook?
I don't know.
I mean, I fluctuate like day
by day, hour by hour, you know,
like, like we pulled Rory in.
Um, I mean, part of it is.
You know, And Rory's the, she's the one
that you shared the Eagle rare with?
Yeah.
She's a big bourbon drinker?
She's, she was not a big bourbon
drinker in the past and, uh,
she was actually a Mormon.
And she left the church and, LDS.
Yeah, and she, uh, She, I came out to
Chicago, I'd come, Uh, I'd come through
Utah and all my buddies from calf
share most of all that left the church.
And I was like hanging out
with them at one of the Mexican
places that we used to eat at.
And they're like, yeah, someone just
mentioned that they had left the church.
And I was like, wait a minute, what?
They're like, all of us have.
And I was like, holy
shit, can we go to a bar?
And we went to this random
bar in Salt Lake city.
Amazing.
Really?
Like some of the best.
It was a hole in the wall.
It was an absolute fucking dive
and it had it had a bourbon
collection better than yours.
Yeah, it was amazing Right challenge
accepted challenge accepted.
Yeah.
Um I was like, how does this happen?
They were like no one drinks, you
know, like no one's buying so we
bought it all I was like, okay
So anyway, so I I leave utah.
I start heading across the country.
I'm driving You know close to chicago.
I text rory ahead of time.
I think I texted her like earlier earlier
To let her know, like roughly when I was
going to be in town or passing through.
And she's like, yeah, come on by.
Um, and she kind of drops a hint that
she's no longer in the church either.
And I had brought a, a bunch
of bottles with me, right.
I'd had a bottle of Eagle rare.
I had a bottle of the, the, uh, old
Forester, the little guy that we got.
Um, yeah.
Cause I drank, I drank that with my buddy.
I usually, uh, that was fun.
Did you, did you buy two?
Or just yeah, I got two.
Yeah, so I want I have one on that.
I haven't cracked yet but um I
had the eagle rare with me And
I didn't have a plan for it.
I just knew I was bringing eagle rare
I bought a bottle that was like my west
point class bottle that I was going
to crack and drink with kirk Although
kirk didn't drink bourbon apparently so
that was that was a bust Um, yeah, that
was not the worst bottle ever though.
It was like a It's like a 120 proof.
So I was like, dope, we'll go for it.
Um, but yeah, so she, she indicated
that her and her husband had left
the church and they were drinking
and I get into their place late.
It was like, you know, midnight
or something like that in the
Chicago 11 o'clock or something.
Her kid was already down and we
crack open the bottle of Eagle and,
and you know, I think I brought the
Eagle and I think maybe Weller too.
and I left, they, they,
yeah, that's what it was.
I brought a bottle of Eagle bottle
while I brought them both up.
We did side by side and they were
like, Oh, we'd like the Eagle rare.
I was a correct and left
the bottle with her.
And then I went on all my merry
way, made it to Philadelphia.
I went talk to my buddy Aga
there, go birds, go birds.
Um, she's down in Florida now, but
as, as the Philadelphia person does.
Yeah.
And, uh, but she's still an Eagles fan.
Um, um, and.
You know, we made our way,
I made my way with Jeff.
I picked Jeff up in Philly and made,
made our way down to see Kirk retire.
And kept in touch with Rory.
Hadn't really talked to
her for, you know, years.
Um, she sunset the CapShare product.
She was with it all the way to the end.
So she's actually the
one that turned it off.
Tim: So does that mean like big payout or?
No, no, she got laid off
Paul: afterwards.
Sorry Rory.
Yeah.
And, um.
So she had been kind of bouncing around
just doing, you know, random stuff
and we connected over the summer and
she's like, I want to do my own thing.
I was like, dope.
I love training people.
I love mentoring.
It's like one of my favorite
things in the world.
If I could do, if, if you were to
say it, money's no issue, you can
do whatever the fuck you want to do.
It would be either between just
mentoring people or cooking, right?
Like I love to cook.
Um,
Tim: maybe it should be
like the next Gordon Ramsay.
Paul: Yeah.
Right.
Um, but she's like, I
want to do my own thing.
And I was like, dope, you
know, like I'll, we formed this
thing, we call it the foundry.
And we would meet together a couple,
you know, a couple hours a day.
And it was basically just me talking
to her about entrepreneurship.
Couple hours a day.
Like two hours.
Okay.
Yeah.
Two hours.
We would, we would meet for like a
two hour working session and like the
first half would be like school and the
second half would be like coworking.
Um, and part of it was like, I
just, I, I do better in community.
Like I don't do well all by myself.
I do better when I'm like with somebody.
So it was just exciting to me
for, for me to be talking, like
I'm building my own business.
Right.
Ola and I had, we're partners.
But like all is not super interested
in like the business part of it.
He's interested in the fulfillment.
Yeah.
Right.
And that's fine.
Yeah.
Right.
Like, and I'm, I'm down for it.
Like all is a super, super smart guy.
He's got a ton of experience.
And the last time I did this, I can
do one or the other, but not both.
I can't do business development
and do fulfillment all the time.
Yeah.
You need a good ying for your yang.
Exactly.
So like, You know, I wasn't, I wasn't
down on the fact that like, I didn't
have a ton of business for Ola to do,
but I really needed to like figure
out my marketing, figure out my
sales cycle, all that kind of stuff.
So Rory's like, Hey, you know, can
I, can I do this alongside you?
And I was like, dope.
Yeah, that'd be great.
So we do this for a while.
She actually starts getting like in
front of people for her business idea.
And she realizes,
Tim: are we allowed to
plug her business idea?
Yeah.
Paul: Yeah.
So her business idea is, well,
uh, she called it rekindle.
Yeah.
And what it was is, and we talked
about on, on her podcast episode,
Tim: it was going to
steal her shit, right?
No, I
Paul: don't think so.
So her, her idea was basically,
you know, how do you help people
like, like, uh, do group trips.
And what she realized is that
a lot of people really just
want like a travel agent.
And what she was offering was more
than that, but she didn't want to
do like, the 80 percent is the heavy
lift of travel agency work, right?
She didn't want to do that.
So she shelves it and I immediately
go, Hey, it'd be awesome if we could
figure out a way to work together.
I don't have a lot of money to pay you
like a guaranteed salary right now, right?
We're figuring that piece out.
But if we can give you like a
piece of the business, And you
can help us build something.
Would you be interested?
And she said, yes.
Now I have a feeling part of that the yes
To go back to the point where like you're
making a certain you're making a salary.
You're used to that salary, right?
Part of the ability to say yes to an
opportunity like that And I do think
it's an opportunity to be able to do
something like this Is that You've let
go of what was Does that make sense?
Tim: Yep.
Paul: And Attachment.
Attachment, yeah.
And I think that, you know, when
you've been out in the market and
the market's hard, and you are
starting to realize, right, like,
Holy shit, how many interviews am I
going to do before I get a job offer?
How many times am I going to get ghosted?
How many times am I going to be like
a perfectly set up candidate and I'm
not even going to get the interview?
Right?
That you start to realize
that the world is different a
meteor has struck the earth.
How do I evolve?
right That I think is going to
actually be part of the difference
For like people to get in the boat
versus people to stay in the water.
Tim: So rory was like Yep
Paul: had that She's 100 on board
right like but a lot of people have
it used to talk to other people.
They're just like yeah Yeah, I'll
say, yeah, well it's, yeah, either,
either they haven't felt the impact
yet or, you know, they got laid off
recently and it's kind of like, well,
you know, I'm just going to get out
there in a couple of months, right?
Like I'm going to take my cypher hands
when, you know, do some exercises.
I'll be all right.
Tim: Because it wasn't that long
ago that you were like getting hit
up by recruiters, like all the,
Paul: all the time, all the time.
And now, you know, you have people that
are technical, non technical founders.
They're putting up.
You know, postings for, you know, co
founding positions that are unpaid
or you have to bring money, right?
You're a co founder and investor.
Oh, it's like a negative interest rate.
Yeah, exactly.
It's why give us
Tim: your money and then
we'll give you less back.
Yeah,
Paul: exactly.
Right.
And people apparently, I
guess they're doing it because
I'm seeing a lot of those.
Right.
Um, so like, it's a, it's a wild.
So then what does
Tim: that lead?
I mean, so like.
Like Rory, it's like, like from
an emotional standpoint, like,
do you think it's like panic?
I don't think it's panic.
What's what's the emotion?
What's the emotion with
like this environment?
It's like, Oh, okay.
Like this is new.
Paul: No, I think, I think what it
is, I mean like Rory, when I, when I
was pitching her, you know, the whole
Aegis and palace strategy, which, you
know, translates to shield and spear.
Um, you know, it was basically
like, look, I don't know what
the market's going to do.
I have no idea where the market's
going right now, but our best
bet is to have a hybrid approach.
Right.
And at one point, and I talked through
like the compensation structure and
whatnot, it's like, you know, basically
like, I can't guarantee a hundred percent,
but I can, you know, I can guarantee this.
Right.
And then we can build up to that.
And this is how the Plinko board works
as far as like you put the money at
the top and it filters out the bottom.
And she at one point she said
something really sweet, which was,
I don't know what kind of genius
this is, but this is genius.
Right.
And I think that that's actually like, it
was really nice for her to say that, but I
think that it wasn't necessarily about me.
It was about her recognizing that in this
market with these conditions, You have
to be flexible and you, and, and from
what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to
build flexibility into the model, right?
Like I don't want to have to do a massive
layoff because we nail, we nail a big
project and then the market shifts again.
Right.
Think about how much has
changed in between our first
conversation and now, right?
Now part of that is because I'm plugged
in and I'm talking more and more and more.
Right.
I'm growing my presence.
I'm paying attention on LinkedIn, right.
Having more conversations.
So I'm getting a better read than I had,
you know, back at the end of the year.
Right.
But it's not that long.
It's been two months.
Yeah.
Right.
And a lot of, and you're getting more
layoffs, big, like deep seek wasn't
a thing, you know, we have no idea
what the impact that's going to have.
Right.
There's just a surplus of, um, of talent.
Well, you have a surplus of talent and
you have an accelerating technology curve.
Yeah.
Right.
Those, they're going in
the opposite direction.
Right.
Right.
So like, I don't know what the price
of, I, my, I have a theory right now.
Cause I have a bunch of colleagues
and friends that are reaching out to
me that are like, I don't understand.
I'm going on these loops on these
interview loops are five levels deep.
They're investing all this time in me.
And then they ghost me at the end.
They're chasing the bottom.
They're chasing the bottom.
Tim: Yeah.
Paul: Right.
Tim: And they're hoping that the people
that they, that they, that they retain
who are just being like inundated with
all the work will stick around until the
bottom happens and then they'll reset it.
They'll reset.
Paul: Yep.
You know, and, and I think,
you know, there's a lot of it
that's part of it's the, the
macroeconomics of just the country.
Right.
Trying to figure out what the market's
going to do with all the economic
uncertainty that, you know, tariffs
and regulation and deregulation bags.
Right, exactly.
So there's all that going on.
But at the same time, it's kind of
like, well, if this guy lays off a
thousand people on this guy lays off
a thousand people, what's the price
of what's the price of dev time.
Tim: Yeah.
Paul: Right.
But it could
Tim: be that it could be that as
we go through this, like, It's
kind of like a great filter.
Yeah.
Right?
For, for devs or for tech.
It could be that on the other side
is not like mass extinction, but it's
like there's just a lot of work to
clean up because we've relied on AI
and maybe AI just continues to catch
up and like, cause like your, your
previous company like Code and Ally
It wasn't the whole idea around that.
It's like, it's like
the fixed shitty code.
Yeah.
So like, it could be that,
where it's like, hey, you, you,
like, you, you let these guys,
gals walk, and your code sucks.
Right.
Like, nothing works.
So maybe after the filter, it's like
you're, you know, whoever's left.
If they decide not to
exit the market, it's like
Paul: I saw someone recently, I think
it was today actually, where it looks
like what they're doing is they're
finding people that are, are getting
niche plays already and they're building
a stable and it's like, Hey, are you
making 10, 000 in, you know, recurring
revenue, monthly recurring revenue,
but you can't make it past that.
You should come talk to us.
I was like, that's interesting.
Right.
Because like what that is is you
found something, but you can't scale.
Your tech sucks.
Your marketing sucks.
You're good.
You go to market sucks.
Like something, something there's
broken, but they, but they found
the hard part, which is the niche.
Right.
Right.
Tim: So, but is that like,
am I saying this correctly?
Like, I'm thinking about Aldo rain
when you, when you're my part of my
alpha, you take on Devin like, is like,
are you, I want my scalps when you,
when I want, when you, when you let,
when you have these layoffs, I would
think that obviously AI is a powerful
tool, but you're taking on debt.
Yes.
You're taking on, is it
like, like tech debt?
Paul: Potentially.
Well, and that's the thing is I don't
think anybody knows what that looks like.
I, that was one of the things I
posted recently was like, so when
we generate code and I haven't seen
this in production yet, but like I've
heard about it, I'm going to try it.
I'm trying to experiment this week
actually with Rory to see like how
far can you get with no code, right?
Like what, what do you do?
Right.
Like are you generating code?
And if you do like think about like
when you generate something on chat GPT
generate an email It doesn't come out 100.
Tim: No,
Paul: right?
Tim: Maybe it's maybe
follows the 80 20 rule
Paul: exactly But like so what
the fuck do you do with that?
Tim: Yeah, but like that 20
Like you still need a human to like
plug it in and then like I think
the other thing is like like who's
Like when you, and again, I'm like,
I apologize to your audience before
they even like utter these words.
So they literally don't
have the vocabulary.
Like when you talk about this
shit, I'm just like, I don't
know what you're talking about.
But like, when you go from beta
to like a launch product or
even, even if you're in beta.
Right.
Like you QA the shit out of that, right?
Right.
Do, do the bot like do, does AI do that?
Paul: I don't think so.
And that's the thing is like,
'cause I asked that question too.
I was like, is AI writing
your test for you?
Like I don't know.
I have no idea.
I don't know how this
actually works in production.
I've heard a couple of stories
where people were like, I'm a
plumber and I launched an app
in the app store in like a week.
I'm like, bullshit Maybe.
Right?
But like.
Okay, now what?
Tim: So remember that?
Remember that, uh, documentary?
I think I watched it.
I think I told you I watched it recently.
I would love to watch it again.
It's such a great documentary.
It's the one about, um,
like the video game.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Indie.
It's something.
Yeah.
It's about super meat boy.
Like when they write that code for those
games, like they're sitting there and
they're playing, do machines like do
simulations to like, like the debug it?
I
Paul: don't know.
I don't think so.
I don't know.
I mean, like, but, but like, that has
to be part of it, like to your point.
Right.
Like, like in my industry, if
you're not writing tests, unit
tests, you can't edit the code with
any kind of level of certainty.
Right.
So like, are you regenerating all your
code every time you make a change?
I don't fucking know.
Right.
So like, I think you still have devs in
the mix, even, and, and maybe you do have,
Rapid prototyping tools that you then have
to get to production and scale, right?
And maybe those tools get better and
better and better and better and better
So that you can go further up the
curve right but But I think there's
a to your point There's a lot of
unknowns where it's just kind of like
yeah, we're probably going to be more
productive Let's fire half of our dude.
Yeah, some
Tim: bean counter
Paul: is like exactly Right, right The
joke we like to say is finance guy.
Yeah.
Right?
Finance guy is just gonna
do what finance guy does.
And I get it.
Tim: Like, answers to
shareholders, all that bullshit.
Right, exactly.
Yeah.
Everybody else is gonna be doing it.
Right.
Like, but, but I think the, I
think the, I think the natural
thing is like, it'll swing back.
It's just how quickly will it
swing back and then will AI keep
pace with it so the swing isn't
Paul: Isn't as big.
Yeah.
Right.
And I think that's, that goes
back to the boat analogy, right?
So you have the Titanic, we've
hit the fucking iceberg, right?
That was Chechi PT, right?
And it was really more recently because
it wasn't when Chechi, it wasn't
three, but it was four and four oh.
Why?
What was?
It's just better.
Right.
And then you had a, is
that what they're on now?
It's four.
Oh yeah.
Okay.
And they had co pilot, right?
So it was built, it was built right into
the, it, this, uh, GitHub's offering
that's built right in your editor.
Okay.
Which I don't find to be as
good as just using the editor.
That's
Tim: like where you actually like
the actual, where you write the code.
Yeah.
Paul: Um, but you know, like I was, I
was working on a go project this summer.
I don't write go.
Tim: Could right go.
Well, that's what you were saying.
Like where you were talking to people,
it's like, Oh, what's our stack.
Does it matter?
It doesn't matter.
I don't,
Paul: I
Tim: mean, it
Paul: goes back to flexibility matters a
little bit, but like not that much, right?
Like, it's like, do you speak Spanish?
I do now.
Right.
Is it really good?
Not really good enough.
Yeah.
Right.
So, you know, and, and, and the, the
pieces that you need to know in a stack.
You know, conventions, nothing like that.
You pick that up so fucking fast, right?
The translation of the code,
that was the hard part.
That's the easy part now.
That's wild.
Yeah.
Right?
So, but to, to use the analogy, we're,
we hit the iceberg and a bunch of
people got thrown overboard fast.
Right.
Where they jumped like, Oh
Tim: man, it's cold in this water.
Paul: Right.
So like I jumped, I, I didn't, I didn't
realize that I jumped in the water.
You
Tim: actually, you actually
jumped before you hit the iceberg.
Right.
Paul: Yeah.
Right.
I just happened to, I was like,
I want to go somewhere else.
I didn't have a plan.
I had a summer, I had summer
vacation plans, right?
I was going to get back into
the workforce in September.
You regret that?
No, no.
To go back to the whole burnout thing.
I was, I took, I took my
last month, I took from bed.
I was so burned out.
I was so depressed.
Right.
I talked to some of my friends and I'm
like, I see my, you know, like I'll, I'll
talk to Carrie about it where I'm like,
this is, this is where I would have been.
Right.
You know, like it's just fucking miserable
and it would have been even worse because
you're looking at the market now and
like, Holy shit, that looks really cold.
That water looks terrifying.
Yeah.
Paul: Like I was in the water.
I'm like, Oh shit, this is cold.
Yeah.
Right.
And like all, and I linked up
really early in the summer and he's
like, Hey, we should partner up.
And I was like, dope.
Yeah, let's do that.
Right.
I thought that there'd be piles
of cash just laying around
like there was last time.
There's not, that's okay.
I'll figure it out.
But at least now, right?
Like, you know, I've got a
company we're making pitches,
we're closing deals, right?
I have a real, I have a brand, right?
Yeah.
You
Tim: have some momentum.
You're moving forward.
momentum.
I know.
And I do think that like, And
I can, I can speak to this.
Um, you know, I guess when did I, when
I launched my business in 2015, 2016,
so kind of 10, 10 years ago or so.
Um,
like if you have a, I have a
great partner, I have, I have
a fantastic partner and, and
partnerships are really hard.
Yep.
Um, but.
And I think sometimes, and we, we put
the time to talk about this, like we're
a little bit too, the same Yang for
our Yang, like you and Ola different,
um, which can also lead to problems.
Um, but it's just really hard.
It's really hard like building a business.
And I think, I think it's hard like
where you're at to build a business
in the environment that you're in.
But sometimes it's like, just
good to be like, man, that sucked.
Like this really sucks.
And to be able to like
commiserate with others.
And I think like, you know, the,
the second part of that is we
have a really great team, right?
And like, we're not shit without our team.
And, and I think if you have
talented people that are like
minded, you can achieve a lot, right?
And I think Benji does not
care about what I'm saying.
Dude,
Paul: my mic is picking him up.
Is it?
I'm pretty sure.
I'm like, looking down.
We're gonna have like, like, this,
Tim: this,
Paul: we're gonna have, we're gonna need
a bot to like, like edit Benji's snores.
I actually, I kind of want to
just, I don't want to edit it out.
I don't want to edit it out.
It's so, it's so raw, dude.
It's,
Tim: it's literally like, like, nobody
gives a shit about what I'm saying.
My dog is basically like, saying that.
But what I'm saying is
that, like, it just.
You draw the strength from others.
Like, like, and I, and I think that one
of the things that I wouldn't really
lean into because you have a lot of
smart people that you surround yourself
with is like lean, lean into that.
And like, whether it's hackathons or
just, you guys look at the world and
there are problems that need to be solved.
Right.
And there is money out there.
It's not laying on the ground
like oil back in the day.
Like, you know, you maybe
have to do a little fracking.
Um, but it's there and nothing
wrong with a little fracking, dude.
I can't say I was about to say
the, I'm not going to say that
shout out to Shane Gillis.
Um, but that's, that's cool too.
If you can amass brain power and
talent and people that have that,
like there's a lot you can do.
And, and maybe your business.
is right there, but it's something
completely freaking different.
Maybe it's something in financial
services or tax services or medical.
Paul: You know, you know, what's
interesting is, and we talked
about this in our first episode
and, you know, I laid out like, Oh, this
is what I'm going to do with the podcast.
And I want to do all these
segments and whatnot.
And I want to do, and I still
do want to do that stuff.
But one of the, some of the feedback that
I've been getting from like marketing,
like, um, Um, I don't want to say
gurus, but like people that I've talked
to that know marketing, they're like,
yeah, get really tight on your message.
And of course we're talking about
bourbon, all kinds of random shit.
Right.
But, um, you know, I'm trying to
like put out podcasts that are like,
like in line with the business.
Right.
Right.
So for right now, that's what I'm doing.
And I want to get back to,
you know, things like ethos
enrichment and things like that.
Cause that's interesting to me.
but for right now it's got to be on brand.
Right.
And, uh, you know, I was in our
first episode, we talked about
like all kinds of different stuff.
And almost none of that is actually like
things that I'm really in pursuit of now.
Like I'm getting like laser focused
on, on how do I feed my team?
Right.
Right.
And.
there is a part of me that's embarrassed.
Like that I said that I was going to
do X and I'm moving to Y and then Z
and then a, a and a, b and a, c buddy.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And, and like, I'm okay with it, but like
I look back and I'm like, Oh my God, that
was eight weeks ago and I'm already moving
past and it's not shiny object syndrome.
It's like the market moved.
Right.
Oh shit.
The market moved.
Right.
Like, you know, Stark
Automation market moved, man.
Tim: Yeah, I still think
that's a really good idea.
I just,
Paul: I don't know that, I don't know,
like, if, if Siri integrated, you know,
if Siri did what I think Siri just did,
that, that product basically got nuked.
In an update, the mics were
on when you were talking
Tim: about it.
Yeah, I stole your idea.
Yeah, which is basically like Amazon's
play is invite all these shops on
there and then just analyze the best
shops and then just eat their lunch.
Yeah
Paul: But that's I mean, that's basically
it right like So, how do you get how
do you get a team in the boat build
the culture be flexible and have grit?
Yeah, that's how you survive.
That's how you thrive Right.
You need to be able to do that because
I'm going to have a certain approach
and a certain mindset and a certain
view, but the more people that I can
get in that tight little boat that
have, that are smart, that are problem
solving, we're going to be able to
see things and solve things together.
Tim: Yeah.
Paul: That's it.
Yeah.
So, well, this has been fun, dude.
Can't believe we did two hours.
It's like two hours and ten minutes.
How long has it been?
Yeah, it's like two hours
and seven right now.
Oh man, that's like Joe Rogan.
Yeah, I know, right?
Um, all we needed was cigars.
We can't smoke in the house.
Yeah, well.
It's too cold.
Yeah.
We can.
My wife should just be really pissed.
She would be.
I would never be allowed back.
Tim: I think we, I took
some pictures of Benji.
I think we should post
them on your show notes.
We
Paul: should 100%.
We should just.
I was actually thinking of what I want to
do is, uh, instead of having the video,
obviously we don't have the video, but I'm
going to AI generate a couple of images,
like maybe us on like Eagles birds.
Oh yeah.
You know, like in gear and she was
birds drinking, drinking Eagle rare.
Yeah.
With Benji sleeping.
We can put, yeah.
Benji.
Yep.
Benji in it.
Shane Gilley could have a, a, uh, um,
I see like Benji like looking around.
I see like
Tim: the whites of his eyes.
Paul: But no, this is,
this has been super fun.
I, I love having these
conversations with you.
Um, they don't always have to be
recorded, but it's fun to record them.
Um,
Tim: yeah, I think, I feel like we,
some of the conversations that we
were having like off mic, like when
you first got here were pretty fired.
It's like, why don't we
just turn the mic on?
I feel like a lot of like what
we talked about was somewhat
replicated and some, some was, uh,
you know, we hadn't talked about it.
Um,
Paul: I was just, I w I really
wanted to do this because I kind
of wanted to capture the moment for
posterity, for like post Eagles win.
Right.
And like, and also like the kind of
the stuff that we're going through
right now, as far as like the industry
and whatnot, like I want to hope be
able to look back at this and be like,
remember how bad it was back then?
Right.
Remember when dad came up
for the, for the birds?
Right.
Remember how we just
plastered the, the chiefs.
Tim: What a great game.
Yeah.
And then I was doing drug deals
on the side and make ends meet.
Yeah, exactly.
Paul: No drugs were sold.
No drugs were
Tim: sold.
That was a joke.
Um, yeah.
Yeah.
I think, I think, um, yeah,
it's good to kind of mark time.
And I, and I think in the, in the world
that's going to continue to accelerate
with, uh, The, the changes, I think it's
good to, to chat about these things.
And again, we might, you might fast
forward six weeks and we look back at
this conversation and be like, obsolete,
obsolete, you know, like different.
And I think again, that, that
increases the challenge of like, okay,
where are we actually going here?
But I don't know.
I I'm, I've always been a glass half full.
Like, I think what.
What we can do as humans, not
robots is, is really powerful.
And I think, I think with some of these
changes, you have that violent, yeah.
Violent upheaval and change, um, which
is probably necessary, but painful.
And I think we're
probably in one of those.
And I think you guys were at, you
guys are the canary in the coal mine.
Yeah.
And, you know, I think we saw that,
you know, If you've ever, if you've
ever followed Andrew Yang, you saw like
his, him synthesizing past elections
and, and, you know, why President
Trump was elected the first time, um,
you know, played a part with, I think,
some of these, Jobs being sucked up by
Amazon and kind of a, you know, a vacuum.
I think that's going to continue.
Now, now we're seeing
in other places, right.
And in a very real way, real way,
which will have a ripple effect.
Yeah.
And an idiot like me, you know, when
I see Jackie P, I'm like, Holy shit,
this is like really powerful and it can
do a lot, but it can't do everything.
And I think it's a matter of like, trying
to find out again, where do we all fit?
Yeah.
Not just developers, all of us, where
do we all fit in this, in this world?
And you know, what can
we do to provide value?
Right.
And again, I think the people
that have grit flexibility are
going to be the ones that succeed.
And again, I think, I think, I think
the future, I still think the future
is bright, but I think there's some
dark clouds now, but I'm, I choose
to believe that, you know, We're,
we're headed in a, in a, in a positive
direction and maybe that's very naive,
but, um, you know, we, we've had
things, things like this in the past.
I think it's just, again, going to
continue to accelerate and then we
just have to figure out how to adapt.
Paul: Right.
And I, I do think, and I want to talk
about this at some other future time.
I love, like I said, I love having
these conversations with you.
I want to continue to do that if,
if I can get, you know, my podcast
Tim: fee is actually
not, not that expensive.
Yeah, it's not.
Um, I'll send you the info.
What was the, what was your last deal?
Yeah.
Right around, right around that.
Right around that.
Yeah.
Paul: Oh, wow.
That's amazing.
That's so, so nice.
I have the cash.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, But maybe next time what we could
do is, is talk a little bit more about,
you touched on Andrew Yang and UBI.
And, um, I think like, I really think
I would love to see, I know you're
not a fan of this administration.
I'm not a huge fan of the
administration necessarily either.
Um, but one thing you can say for sure
is that they're doing things different.
And it would be interesting to see
them put, I don't know that they'll
do it, but the right thing to do in
my mind would be to put some kind of
tax on some of these, like what, what
Andrew Yang had proposed to fund UBI.
Like, yeah.
Um, either just to do UBI straight up or
to do some kind of like training program.
Yeah.
Right.
So like, you know, like for example,
I, cause I left, I left my job.
I'm not eligible for, you know, like
any kind of government services, right.
Like, you know, unemployment
or anything like that.
Like if I wasn't able to have the chops
to go and do this thing on my own, which
maybe I do, maybe I don't, time will tell.
Right.
If you happen to step out into
the water thinking you're going
for a dip and now you're stuck,
Tim: what happens
Paul: to you?
Tim: Yeah.
Paul: Right.
Tim: Yeah.
And I, I think the thought
experiment about, you know,
again, those that haven't like
heard of UBI or really like
explored it very deeply.
I was a big skeptic until I came across
him and read a couple of books about it.
Um, and it's a bipartisan thing.
I think like Alaska has
done it for a while.
Um, you know, I think the Democrats have,
have, have backed it in the past, or at
least part, you know, some Democrats.
Um, so there, there's, there's
evidence and I think very smart people.
In tech have said like, I think Mark
Zuckerberg has come out and said
it like, I think there's a lot of
smart people that said like, this
is probably where we need to go.
But I think like, you know, imagine
a world where like, and again, like
it, a cost of living is
radically different in
different parts of the country.
But imagine like your basic needs
are kind of met, like rent, food,
your mortgage, those types of things.
Like, like, what does that give you in
terms of like brain capacity and like,
like not worry free, but at least a,
Paul: well, and it goes back to
that burnout question, right?
Like if you're, if you're in a
scarcity mentality, right, right.
Like those are your
diseases of despair, right?
Right.
Like that's when you start having problems
with mental health and drug abuse and
alcoholism, you know, all those things.
If you can kind of take
the edge off of that.
Does that radically change the
curve when it comes to the impact
that this technology is having?
I think that there's a hard argument to
be made that, yeah, it really matters.
Right?
Like this isn't about people being lazy.
It's about people figuring out what to
do and can you give them basically not
unlimited, like it's unlimited time,
but it's, It's not that UBI would be
like, everyone's just rolling in it.
No, it's
Tim: not a panacea.
It's not like, you know, it's not, it's
not a silver bullet, but it's, it gives
you enough, but it also values people
that are not necessarily viewed by the
economy as valuable, which is like stay at
home moms, caregivers, things like that.
And mentors, mentors, um, like, I think,
you know, if we, if we do that experiment
and like, you know, dream with me a little
bit, like, what does that look like now?
Again, a lot of people were like,
who's going to pay for that.
And like, you know, what kind of
productivity will we get from that?
Um, I don't, I don't know.
You know, Yang's, Thought was like, Hey,
companies like Amazon have sucked up like
all of these mom and shop pop or mom and
pop shops that you see on main street.
They're gone.
That's all, that's all robots.
And, and it's almost like,
you know, you tax them.
It's like a toll.
Um, and then kind of redistribute
that as being a citizen for the
richest country in the world, right?
now part of that is laughable because
we haven't even figured out and I
I feel this as a As this business
owner that offers health care is that
it's a major drain on my business
Right for me to have to do that.
And again, we don't have to do that We
choose to do that because we want to pay
a living wage that has those benefits
Not all financial planners will do that
but like That's a huge You That's a
huge liability on our balance sheet.
Right.
Huge.
And, and I think like, we
haven't figured that out yet.
And then we're going to try to
figure out this massive thing.
But I almost think that both
things are necessary because again,
like you could potentially see
a large part of our population.
That's just not tied to a traditional
job because they either gone away
or they're just obsolete, you know,
I guess it was, that's the same
thing, but like, yeah, I don't know.
Paul: Um, Well, I mean like some of, some
of these jobs are going to be temporarily
displaced and some of these jobs are
basically going to be obliterated.
They're gone.
Yeah.
Never to return.
Yeah.
Um, at least not in any fashion
that the person would have
recognized when they left.
Right.
So like, you know, Sandy Mets is one
of my heroes in the coding community.
She has this great talk that I should
actually send to you and you'll
find it interesting because it's,
it's Madam Sandy tells your future.
And she talks about her dad's journey
through being a line of type operator in
You know, room and line of type
was basically how they would set
newspapers, kind of like mechanically,
like prior to like electronic print.
And these were, you know, I think it was
like Edison said it was like the, the
seventh wonder of the world or something
like that was the line of that machine.
I mean, it was a big, big,
big, big, big fucking deal.
So is this like, just like the
evolution of like the printed press?
Basically.
Okay.
Yeah.
So it was like the final version.
Of the analog printing press.
And then they went digital and the
line of type operator just evaporated.
Dodo gone.
Right.
They were like, they, these machines
were the most valuable thing.
They had them running 24, seven.
Right.
And then they were throwing them out
of third story windows to get rid
of them for scrap in like no time.
Right.
And that's the difference.
Tim: I remember like, I don't even
know, it wasn't word, but like
before word you get on a computer,
I'm like, man, I can type forever.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That to me was like,
Paul: yeah.
Tim: Magic.
Paul: Yeah.
But like, but like, you know, some
industries, that's exactly what's
going to happen is that the line
of type operator does not exist.
We don't have people that
make like horse whips.
Right.
Right.
There's, you know, that
doesn't exist as an industry.
It's a, it's an artisan thing now.
Yeah.
Right.
Um, and I don't think anybody knows.
I think if anybody tells you they know
what industries are going to become line
of typed, I think they're full of shit.
Right.
I saw a robot recently
that apparently can cook.
Tim: Right.
I've seen that where, you know, like,
are you talking about like fast food
Paul: or?
No.
Tim: Oh, like a chef?
Paul: Like, like a home chef.
Oh, really?
Right?
But if you think about like that and
you apply that to just, you know, any
decent restaurant, not like a super,
super, super fancy restaurant, right?
Where like part of the show is
actually seeing the human, but
like just a nice restaurant, right?
And you just have, you know, the
grill is just manned by a robot.
Right.
Why not?
Why the fuck not?
Right?
Well, I don't think we have
any idea where this goes.
And part of it is going to be, you're
going to have, you're going to have
entries into the market
that people just go, ew, no.
Like Google glass, right?
When that came out, people were
like, no, we're not doing that.
And then we, you know, we're we're totally
okay with, you know, uh, VR, right?
I don't know why.
Like I don't think anybody knows why
necessarily there's some theories,
like why did Google glass fail?
But you know, the, the meta
quest seems to be doing okay.
It's not killing it, but you know, yeah.
Um, I think that's going
to be how it's going to be.
Is it like some of these industries,
it's going to be like, Oh, cool.
The robot does that better.
And we like that.
Tim: Do you think that like, and there's
a million different ways to like,
to like look at this, like there's, I
know there's some people that look at AI
and be like Terminator two, like, like
it could, I'm not going there, but like,
do you think that like we can like, like
it kind of turns into like caregiver?
Maybe.
Have you ever seen, um, like Wally.
Yeah.
Like, is it
Paul: that?
It might be.
Yeah, it might be.
I mean, like, like, that's kind of
like the extreme other end, right?
Where you don't have to do anything.
Yeah, they're not killing us, but
they're like, we're like puppies.
Yeah, exactly.
Really doughy puppies.
Yeah.
Right?
Um,
I don't know.
I mean, like in the best possible world.
We live in a world where the
technology continues to be
an aid, not a master, right?
Where everybody gets to contribute,
not just a couple, right?
But I think the hard part is going
to be the evolution of the tech.
I don't think we've ever been
in a world where, where the
tech moved so fucking fast.
Cause it's not just, it's not
just going to be AI, but like
robotics are going to come up.
Tim: I think
Paul: that's the
Tim: scariest thing is the pace, right?
Like in our lifetime, we've seen
some just crazy, crazy things.
Like I was amazed by like when I
could type forever and now like,
Paul: and then remember like, like 10
ADP and you have four K and you were
like, should I pay 10 for four K?
Yeah.
Best, best 10 spend a day.
I've spent 10 on dumber shit.
Yeah.
It was all the case.
It's actually, and that's the thing
is it's not even all the case.
Two years from now, it'll be 8K.
Yeah, it's not enough.
Not enough.
More!
Yeah, exactly.
Kylo Ren.
Yeah.
You know.
What do you mean I can't put on my VR
goggles and be right there sideline?
Yeah.
This is, this is bullshit.
Right?
But, I don't know.
I think, I think the trick
is, Is that, You just have to,
like you said, stay flexible.
Just stay in the game.
And like, I don't know, like I
said, I don't know if, if the
game of SAS application, even
like, if that's a thing anymore.
Right.
I kind of think it's not, I kind
of think that like the future is
going to be very, very different.
It's going to be very small niche bots
that kind of like knit things together.
Right.
Just like, like, you know, I don't
know anybody that develops for like,
like BIOS or anything like that,
like that writes like assembly code.
I don't know anybody in my
professional circles that do that.
We rely on it.
We build on top of that.
And I think that's kind of, kind of
be like this, the, the application
ecosystem is that you're building
AI bots that live on top of SAS
applications and use SAS products.
Yeah.
Right.
And that's okay.
But like what you need to be able
to do is stay flexible and and get,
get into a position where you can
strike when there's an opportunity
and you know, make an impact and get
a little bit of cheddar for doing so.
So I don't know.
I'm trying to figure it out,
Tim: but yeah, I don't, I don't think
that there is like, I talk about this
with clients with like retirement,
there's no freaking destination.
It's just like the next, next chapter.
You know, like we talk about like, Hey,
what's this like transition look like?
Is it three, four years?
Paul: Well, and I think that that's one
of those things that is a fallacy, right?
Where people are like, well, I know
exactly I'm going to retire at 65.
I'm like, you know, you're
going to retire at 65, right?
You know, you're going to make it to 65.
Tim: Yeah.
Or like, when you get there,
it's like, I've arrived.
You're like, nope, no, it's just
the next chapter in the book.
Like, it's not.
Yeah, I think the problem, like, to
kind of lay this back into, like, Like,
for a lot of retirees, so much of their
identity is caught up in the role.
Like, oh, I was a pharmacist,
I was a developer.
Yeah.
And then, like, when that goes
away, it's like, What happens?
Ben Stiller and Tropic Thunder.
Like, who am I?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And if so much of your identity
is tied up in, like, the job
that you do, Who are you?
That's often cool during the course
of your career, but if that career
gets ripped out from underneath
you or you retire you're like Who
am I who am I what am I doing?
Why am I here?
What's my purpose?
Yeah, how do I contribute?
What's meaningful to me
Paul: and in the best case scenario you're
turning to some kind of grand tradition
In the worst case scenario, it's nihilism
right And that sucks, you know, you know,
like you kind of see it with our parents.
Right.
Mom has all this connection,
all this community.
She's out there dancing and
playing her games and marbles
and jokers and all that stuff.
I love our dad.
Sudoku.
Tim: Yeah.
I just think he's always
been like that though.
Paul: Right.
But that's kind of my point though.
Yeah.
Is that like, like I think it's important.
And I think he has always been
like that, but like at what
point was he always like that?
Always like that.
Or did he learn to be like that over time?
Or was he raised that way?
Like, that's not how
some of his siblings are.
Tim: No.
Paul: Right.
And like, I guess my point is,
is that like, we try to raise our
kids with, Oh, you gotta be smart.
Like, you don't have to be smart,
but you have to learn and you have
to adapt and all this other stuff.
Right.
Maybe one of the things that we're
missing is you gotta be a good friend.
You have to seek connection, right?
Blood is thicker than water.
Tim: Yeah.
Paul: You know what I mean?
Like, cause there will be
times when you are alone.
That is the time that you
should seek other people.
Tim: Yeah.
Yeah.
And for all like the, maybe the faults
that we say about dad, the thing that
I really appreciate about him is that
he was always home at the same time.
He was there for dinner.
I never once, I could, I could be a mass
murderer and he would still kiss me and
say, I, you know, I love you like, like
an unwavering devotion, love for his kids.
Um, and again, that's, that was always
kind of a given for us, but that's
not a, that's not for a lot of people.
That's definitely not, definitely
Paul: not.
Yeah, no.
And you're right.
And again, it's not to take
anything away from him.
But what I'm saying is that mom and
dad are two different archetypes
to a very, maybe dad is older, but
they're polarly different archetypes.
And I would say that mom is fulfilled.
You know, she, her identity was not
tied up in her job and dad's wasn't
either, but his, his, he didn't
really develop an identity, right?
He was, he provided, you know,
he contributed to the house.
And then he retired.
Tim: Yeah.
But in the 40 years that I 40 some years
that I've been alive, like I just, I
never saw that, you know what I mean?
It's not like he was this
and then he devolved into
something, you know what I mean?
But to your point, like maybe
that happened and we never saw
it or we never witnessed it, but
Paul: I never remember him.
I think, I think part
of it was because he.
He lost good friends either by moving away
or, or by, by sad, sad, sad circumstance.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
And then just never rebuilt them to
go back to your, to go back to your
point where it's like, you know,
maybe the ladies have a little bit
easier to, to form those connections
and maybe the, maybe the lads, you
know, have to get better at that.
Maybe that's something that we have to
teach is like, like I said, reach out.
Yeah.
That's one of the things that I had to, I
had to learn that like with my condition,
one of the things that I have to learn,
I had to learn and I have learned is
that when I'm feeling depressed, when
I'm feeling down, that's the time
to say something like, say something
because it's going to get dark soon.
Hey guys, I'm not, I'm not okay.
Right.
Yeah.
So.
I don't know.
I don't know.
But what do you say?
Wrap it up?
Tim: Yeah, how what's the time on it now?
It's two
Paul: hours and a
Tim: half Damn, son.
I don't think i've talked
about anything For two and
Paul: a half hours in my entire life.
This was fun This is fun.
And, uh, two, two glasses of brown down.
Yeah, and if you
Tim: have actually
Paul: stayed and
Tim: listened to this whole
damn thing, like, Kudos.
Yeah, kudos to you.
I don't, that's, that's pretty amazing.
Paul: It'll, it's probably just me.
I'm the only one that's
listened to this shit.
You're like,
Tim: thanks mom.
No, mom doesn't even listen to this shit.
Mom doesn't even
Paul: listen to this.
No.
Mom, mom, I don't think you could
pay mom to listen to our podcast.
No.
But no, I, uh, I appreciate it.
It helps me think, um, it's
always fun to hang out.
Yeah.
Tim: Let's do it again sometime.
Paul: Let's do it again.
All right, man.
I love you, dude.
All right.
Bye.