Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

Career growth starts with stepping outside your comfort zone.

Building a successful career isn’t about following a set path—it’s about knowing when to evolve and embracing change. Whitney Johnson believes that success comes from disrupting yourself—challenging routines, stepping into discomfort, and continuously evolving. “People think staying in their comfort zone is the safe choice,” she explains, “but real growth happens when we take intentional risks.”

As a bestselling author and leadership expert, Johnson has spent years helping individuals and organizations navigate change. She breaks down the S-curve of learning, a framework that helps professionals recognize when it’s time to move on, pivot, or double down on their current path. From identifying signs of stagnation to developing strategies for career reinvention, she shares practical tools for making bold moves with confidence.

In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, Johnson joins host Matt Abrahams to explore why mastery can be a sign that it’s time for a change, how to manage the discomfort that comes with growth, and why personal disruption isn’t just a challenge—it’s the key to long-term success.

To listen to the extended Deep Thinks version of this episode, please visit FasterSmarter.io/premium

Episode Reference Links:
Connect:

Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (02:42) - What Is Personal Disruption?
  • (04:50) - Signs It’s Time to Disrupt Yourself
  • (07:12) - Getting Comfortable with Discomfort
  • (12:09) - Finding Your Next Career Move
  • (15:58) - Ensuring Fulfillment After Disruption
  • (21:46) - Best Career Advice Received
  • (23:19) - Career Regrets & Lessons
  • (24:50) - Conclusion

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Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
Whitney Johnson
CEO of Disruption Advisors

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.
Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

Tune in every Tuesday for new episodes. Subscribe now to unlock your potential as a thoughtful, impactful communicator. Learn more and sign up for our eNewsletter at fastersmarter.io.

Matt Abrahams: Mastery
can be motivational.

When you know something so well,
it could be a signal that it's time

to change and disrupt yourself.

My name is Matt Abrahams.

I teach strategic communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

Today, I'm excited to once again
be joined by Whitney Johnson.

Whitney joined me for episode 147.

As a reminder, Whitney is a globally
recognized thought leader, keynote

speaker, and executive coach.

Whitney is also the award winning
author of Disrupt Yourself: Putting

the Power of Disruptive Innovation
to Work and Smart Growth: How to Grow

Your People to Grow Your Company.

Finally, Whitney hosts the aptly
named podcast Disrupt Yourself.

I was fortunate to be a guest
on her show, and we had a great

conversation, as we do here.

Welcome Whitney.

I loved our prior conversation
where we talked extensively

about how to use disruption to
further our careers and our goals.

Thanks so much for being here.

Whitney Johnson: Happy to be here.

Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

Shall we get started?

Whitney Johnson: Let's do it.

Matt Abrahams: All right.

So as a reminder to those listening in,
can you redefine for us what you mean by

personal disruption for personal growth
and share how this type of disruption

can really set our careers into flight?

Whitney Johnson: Most of us are
familiar with the word disruption.

We've heard it, um, something
that Clayton Christensen wrote.

It was this disruptive innovation and
we typically apply it to products and

services and companies and countries.

But I had this ah-ha as I was
working with him, that disruption

wasn't just all those things.

It was actually about people.

That you could in fact disrupt yourself.

But the big difference with personal
disruption is whereas with every

other kind of disruption, you
are disrupting something else.

So for example, ChatGPT is disrupting
the copywriter that's writing your email.

In this particular case,
you are disrupting you.

You are both the silly little thing
and you're taking over the world.

And so when I think about personal
disruption, what it really is is a

deliberate process of self innovation.

It's a decision where you've got these
very thick neural pathways, these

comfortable routines, these super highways
of habit, and you are making the decision

that you are going to rewire your brain.

You're going to create
these new neural pathways.

You're going to step back from who
you are right now into who you can be.

And that's what you do
when you disrupt yourself.

But it is uncomfortable because if you
think about your life on this graph paper

of existence, when you're disrupting
yourself, you may be on the Y axis of

success at a twelve, and disrupting
yourself by definition means you go down

that Y axis of success to a ten or a nine.

But the reason you do it, the payoff, is
that you believe that right now your life

may be over one, up one, over one, up one.

And it might be perfectly fine, but what
you really want, what you believe when

you disrupt yourself, is that your life
will now be over one, up two, or over

one, up four, that the slope of your line,
the slope of your life, will improve.

And so that's why you disrupt yourself.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you for that
very clear definition and I love this

notion of this super highway of habit.

And really disruption is about getting
off the highway and changing something.

And that change comes with at least
perhaps a short term cost, but

it has potential for just really
a bunch of long term benefit.

I want to dig a little deeper.

What are some of the signs that
we're ready for disruption?

You know, many of us can just be really
content and comfortable in our careers.

Are there certain signs you look
for in the coaching and in the work

you do to really encourage people to
say, hey, this is now some time for

disruption, or at least considering that?

Whitney Johnson: There are
some really specific tells.

When you hear a person saying
things like, I've paid my dues.

I could do this in my sleep.

When you're no longer slightly
nervous about anything that you're

doing, when you haven't learned
anything recently, when you find

yourself saying to your colleagues,
that's just how we do things here.

Those are usually pretty good
signs that you are in a place where

you have started to get bored.

And because you were at, what
I call, the top of an S curve,

you've reached this mountain peak.

You're no longer learning, you're no
longer getting dopamine, and mountain

climbers will tell you that any
altitude above twenty-six thousand

feet is known as the death zone.

You're so high up, your brain
and body literally start to die.

When you get to this place where you're
saying things like, I've paid my dues

or I could dial it in, you are so high
up, you're stagnating in such a way,

that if you don't disrupt yourself
and do something new, your brain and

your body will literally start to die.

And I guess there's one other tell
that I would say, is that when you have

this feeling, is sometimes you can't
really even articulate it, but you

can feel deep inside of you that you
were meant to do more on this planet.

Usually that's a sign that it's
time for you to disrupt yourself.

And if you don't, if you don't listen
to it, you may start underperforming

or in some cases you will get
pushed, you will be disrupted.

Because the universe will give you a nudge
because growth is our default setting.

And if you won't do it for yourself,
the universe will give you that

opportunity for you to continue to grow.

Matt Abrahams: Growth
is our default setting.

I really like that.

I think in many cases in reflecting
on my own life, there have been

times where, I guess, I've worked
against the default and then I've

become very unhappy or complacent.

And I really appreciate the very
specific things that you itemize.

I reflect back on a job I had, and I
said to myself, I know how to do this.

I can do this in my sleep.

And within two months I
was looking for new work.

I'd love for you, one, to
briefly summarize the S curve,

because I know that's really
important for the work you do.

And then second, disrupting ourselves can
be uncomfortable, by definition, right?

We're moving out of our comfort zone.

So if you have some advice
and guidance on how to feel

comfortable with the uncomfortable.

Whitney Johnson: I had the privilege
of working with Clayton Christensen

and investing for several years.

And so I applied this idea of disruption
to individuals, but we also in our

investing, we're using the S curve.

And that was popularized
sixty years by Everett Rogers.

And he used it to understand
how do groups change over time.

But I've noticed a trend in myself.

I like to apply management
theories to individuals, and that's

what happened with the S curve.

And so very simply, what it does is it
allows you to understand what growth

looks like and what it feels like.

And there are three major parts.

There's the launch point of the S
curve, and this is the place where

your brain is running a predictive
model of what is it going to take for

me to get to the top of that curve.

Most of your predictions are inaccurate.

And so dopamine, the chemical messenger
of delight, it actually drops.

So the experience that you can have
when you do something new is you

can feel excited, but also terrified
and frustrated and discouraged and

impatient, to the point that you may find
yourself saying, this was a bad idea.

I shouldn't have done this.

I shouldn't have tried.

No, that's not necessarily the case.

What's probably the case is that
you're doing something new and

you're uncomfortable and your
brain is really struggling and

in fact the situation is normal.

So that's the launch point of
the curve, the dopamine dropping.

But then you put in the effort, you
tip into the sweet spot and you go

into that steep part of the curve.

And this is where you have these
emotional upside surprises.

Your dopamine starts to spike.

It's hard, but not too hard.

It's easy, but not too easy.

You feel exhilarated and
you feel like you're exactly

where you're supposed to be.

This is not the time when people look for
new jobs because everything is working.

But then there's mastery and that's
what we've been talking about.

You get to the top of the curve.

You're at the top of the mountain.

You really like to be master
of all that you survey.

And yet, there's something built into
your psyche that says, I like being here,

but if I stay here, I'll stop growing.

So it's a place of mastery in the sense
that you've done what you came to do.

So now you've got a little bit of
dopamine, but not a lot, but you're bored.

So at the launch point, growth
feels slow but it's fast.

And the sweet spot growth
is fast and it feels fast.

And in mastery, growth is in fact slow.

And by understanding all of that, it
helps you navigate the process of growth.

So to your question that you started
to ask, well, how do I do this?

How do I disrupt myself?

One of the things that I use all the
time is that when I do new things

and I'm feeling really uncomfortable,
I'm like Whitney, you're just at

the launch point of the curve.

It's going to get easier.

You made the decision that
you wanted to be here.

You're confident that this is
the place that you need to be.

So now just stay with this discomfort
because it will get easier.

So that's a launch point
strategy or tactic.

Another thing to think about is
that when you're in mastery and

you think, I don't know that I
want to jump, I'm really scared.

This is going to be hard
to do something new.

I employ loss aversion theory.

So we all know Daniel Kahneman, Amos
Tversky, they talked about the loss

aversion theory, and I use it in this way.

We sometimes try to motivate ourselves
by saying, you know what, if I do this

new thing, it's going to be so amazing.

But we're two point two times
more motivated by what we'll

lose then by what will gain.

So sometimes you can motivate yourself
to do something new by saying,

what bad thing is going to happen?

Like I'll start to underperform
and I might lose my job if

I'm not willing to jump.

And I think the third thing
that I would say is to remind

yourself, why are you doing this?

Allow yourself to connect to a deeper
sense of purpose, because if you can

be in that deeper sense of purpose,
that's going to help you overcome fear.

It's going to help you keep going when
it's fun, but it's also going to help

you be willing to do something new when
you're feeling a little bit complacent.

Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate
that explanation, launch, sweet

point, mastery, and how mastery is
actually motivational to move beyond.

And you answered the other question
I asked, which was how do you

handle the discomfort and concern?

And it sounds like what I heard
you say is one recognizes that it's

totally normal and natural, especially
depending on where you are in the curve.

And if you can have a deeper
purpose that's driving you.

That it can help push you beyond some of
the hesitation and concern that comes.

It strikes me that part of disrupting
yourself is to have at least an

inkling, maybe even more, about
what you're potential new career,

or new way of being, looks like.

What practices can individuals
engage in to help them creatively

envision this potential future
self and potential future career?

What are things that we can do to
help us do that, that will ultimately

help us search for the jobs we
want to search for, that we need to

search for, and develop ourselves
professionally to be prepared for that?

Whitney Johnson: I think an important
starting point is to really be

aware of what our strengths are.

And that could come across as
being very glib and very cliche.

But in fact, to start with your strengths
is much more difficult than it seems.

There are a number of reasons for this.

Number one is that because our
strengths are something that we do

so well and so reflexively and so
naturally, we're oftentimes not aware

of what our strengths actually are.

So that's the first thing.

And if you look at what compliments people
give you, you're going to be able to

start to identify what your strengths are.

That's the first piece, but then
there's a second piece to this is that

even when you know what your strengths
are, sometimes you actually reject

them because they're so easy for you.

They're so reflexive.

You don't think they're actually valuable.

And it might even be that over time
people have attached or affixed a label

to you around that strength so that you
feel like there's this reductionist,

like when I was growing up I played the
piano and people would be like, oh, well

that's Whitney, she's good at the piano.

I came to reject that compliment, reject
that strength because I didn't want to

be solely defined by this thing that
everybody said that I was good at.

And yet by rejecting that or any
other strength that we have, then

we're not doing something that
is a natural gift that we have.

And only, I believe, can we make an
idiosyncratic contribution in the world

if, number one, we know what our strengths
are, number two, we value our strengths,

and number three, we own those strengths.

And so I think I would really encourage
people to start there as they're trying

to figure out what they might want to do.

Now, beyond that, I'll give
you two other thoughts.

I think it's very interesting, and you
may have seen the work of Tara Swart.

She talks about action boards, not
vision boards, but action boards.

And pulling up photos, pictures,
images of things that might be

interesting to you professionally.

And the reason that's so important is
that oftentimes when we think about

things that we might do, our conscious
mind immediately says, oh, I couldn't

do that, oh, I couldn't do that.

And if we start to have those images
or those visions, it bypasses our

conscious mind and allows ourself
to just explore a little bit more

about what we might do differently.

So those are the two thoughts that
I would suggest, is to look at the

images that kind of draw you in, that
you find yourself curious about, and

then importantly, really get to the
point where you identify, you value,

you own your strengths, because that's
going to be a place where you're going

to be able to do really great work.

Matt Abrahams: That's, I
think, really good advice.

Really understanding what it is
you want in a visceral sense,

what it looks like, can be very
motivating and can help you focus.

And then really understanding
your strengths and honoring those

strengths and respecting those
strengths instead of rejecting them.

And with that in mind, once you have
some of that information, then I think

you can start doing exploration, have
some informational interviews, check out

tools like LinkedIn and look at people's
career paths who have similar interests.

Spend some time checking out
writings, podcasts, other things

that people who have done what
you're interested in doing have done.

So you can get a good sense
of what it looks like jumping

from one curve to a next.

And I think that's really helpful.

So thank you for that.

So we started by talking about this
notion of fulfillment and purpose.

I'm wondering if as we come to an end,
you can help give us some insights into

some of the steps that help ensure as
best you can, I know there's no guarantee,

that when you're disrupting your career,
disrupting your life, what are some things

you can do strategically and perhaps even
tactically to increase that fulfillment?

Because it's possible that the
disruption could go the other way, right?

It might not lead to something
that's more fulfilling.

Have you found best practices or things
people do that help ensure or at least

point in the direction of success?

Whitney Johnson: I think
there are two aspects to this.

So first of all, I think you point
yourself in the directions of success

when you're simply willing to experiment
and going back to that statement earlier

of growth is our default setting.

We're wired to grow.

So you're pointing yourself in that
direction simply by experimenting.

I do think that there are two things
that I think about, but then I'll go

to, I think what's actually where your
question is, to ask yourself, do I

think that this thing is achievable?

And not, do I believe I can do it,
but do I believe that I can get to the

point where I believe that I can do it.

Which I think is important.

So there's a little bit of that
leap of faith that you're going

to take in order to do it.

I think there's also a question
that you can ask yourself is,

is this familiar yet novel?

So there's enough familiarities.

There's some research that's done
around, you know, you want eighty-five

to ninety percent familiar, and
then ten to fifteen percent novel.

So that's going to create these
parameters where it's going to feel

doable and probably aligned with
something that makes sense for you.

But I think that the biggest
piece is to ask yourself, does

this align with my values?

And sometimes it's going to align
with your current set of values.

But sometimes disrupting yourself is
about you've made the decision that

you want to change your value system.

And so will doing that align with the
values of who I want to be, who I aspire

to be, and what does that need to look
like in order for that to be possible?

And then the thing that I'm just
thinking as we're talking about

this is to recognize that this is
very much an iterative process.

This is discovery driven.

I talked earlier about this idea of
building those new neural pathways.

When you're doing something new, it
is not a super high way of habit.

You are basically put yourself
into a jungle and you're creating

a cow path with a machete.

And that's going to be hard work and
it's going to be uncomfortable and you're

not going to know what you're doing.

And so allow yourself as you're trying
to find your purpose, and figure out

if this is the right direction for
you, is to give yourself some grace.

And the last thing I would say is there
are going to be people in your life

who love you and care about you and
you're, they're going to be able to say

to you, that makes sense for you to do.

I know it's hard right
now, but keep going.

Matt Abrahams: That support can
be so important in all of this.

It really resonated with me when you
talked about the success and feeling

fulfilled in our careers, in our life.

The way we judge that might change
because the value system that we have,

as we move through that disruption
towards whatever that change in

career is, will change as well.

And we had Dorie Clark, who I
know you're familiar with, and

she echoes what you talked about,
this being a time of discovery.

She talks about it in terms
of hypotheses and discovery.

Hypotheses, experimentation are all
really talking about the same thing.

This is a time of flux, but it's flux with
the foundation of purpose and direction.

So Whitney, before we end, I'd like to
ask you two questions about careers.

Are you up for that?

Whitney Johnson: I am.

Absolutely.

Matt Abrahams: All right.

Question number one.

What is the best career advice
you ever received and why?

Whitney Johnson: As I think about
this question, it's actually

causing me to do a reframe.

So early in my career, I had a situation
where I was working on Wall Street.

My boss had just gotten fired.

They probably would have fired me too,
but I had good performance reviews.

I was pregnant, so that was
a good insurance policy.

I had this experience of feeling
like they shoved me into equity

research, like they disrupted me
into this job that I did not want.

But as I think about that job, it was a
time of tremendous growth technically,

from a leadership perspective,
from a personal perspective, and

it turned out to be a career maker.

And the reason that I am drawing on
this as the best career advice is

that they said to me, Whitney, we
think you'd be really good at this.

And so I'm thinking about when
people say to us, I think you'd

be really good at this and we find
ourselves rejecting it, just stop

and stay with it a little bit longer.

Try to dispense with all the
baggage that might be attached

to why you can't hear it.

And when someone holds up that
mirror and says, I think you'd be

good at this, be willing to listen.

And consider it deeply and thoughtfully.

Matt Abrahams: I've had a similar
experience where somebody said,

I think you'd be good at this.

And I resisted it.

It turned out that they
were absolutely right.

And it fundamentally changed my
career trajectory as a result of that.

Thank you for sharing that.

Final question.

What is one thing you wish you
would have done differently in the

way you've managed your career?

Whitney Johnson: I wish that I would have
at a much, much younger age seen that

discomfort is not a bug, but a feature.

I wish I could have understood that.

So that when I'm in this place of
being really uncomfortable and awkward

and not knowing what I'm doing,
to recognize that this is simply

a signal of encouragement that I'm
in a place where I'm about to grow.

Matt Abrahams: The discomfort
is actually a signal, and it's a

signal that good things are ahead.

Whitney, good things are behind us based
on this interview, and I know they're

ahead of us as you and I continue to
collaborate, but as everybody listening

in can benefit from what you said.

This idea of disruption and looking
for that change, how mastery can

be motivational, and the things we
can do to handle the discomfort and

the ambiguity that come with it, so
useful, and so helpful, and a true

pleasure to revisit this conversation
with you and to learn from you.

Thank you so much.

Whitney Johnson: Likewise.

Thank you, Matt.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us
for this episode of Think Fast Talk Smart.

This episode was produced by Ryan
Campos, Aech Ashe and me Matt Abrahams.

Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

With special thanks to
Podium Podcast company.

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