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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Jesse French
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Restorative Man podcast. My name is Jesse French and excited to be with you today and also just excited because my friend and colleague, Mr. Jeremy Williams, is also joining me. What's up, Jeremy?
Jeremy Williamson
So good to be with you, Jesse. So good.
Jesse French
This is so fun. Thanks for taking some time to join us. And I'm resisting with all the fibers in my being, not to just take like this really low kind of like pot shot at you because we have like a bantering relationships. I just want you to recognize my maturity. want you to recognize my character.
Jeremy Williamson
I don't know if I can do that because because you just said like I have something I would like to say so there's something that I'm thinking about you right now that I would love to take like a pot shot like a low below the belt shot at you but I'm gonna withhold it and just think bad thoughts about you in my head I don't I don't know if I feel better about that or worse
Jesse French
See, this is why I love you and I hate you, because you just totally like saw through my my failed attempt there.
Jeremy Williamson
I don't know like what am I supposed to do with that? It's like hey I was gonna tell you that I hate you and I think you're dumb but I'm really mature and so I'm not gonna say that right now.
Jesse French
see, and now you just brilliantly like turn the tables and I am a 16 year old immature kid. Dang it, Jeremy wins again.
Jeremy Williamson
No, it's good to be here, man. And yeah, you can take pot shots. I mean, I'll get you back at Grove when I see you person here in a couple of days.
Jesse French
I will hold you to that. right. Well, Jeremy, as we have been doing in the last few episodes here in the podcast, we have been teeing up our restorative manhood digital summit, which is happening the end of September. Just a gathering of speakers and authors and leaders speaking to restorative masculinity that we're super pumped about. Again, it's digital. It's free. We want everyone to come and be part of that. Yes. And one of the cool things about that is you had the chance as part of that summit.
to interview John Tyson. I was really jealous of you. Like, man, Jeremy like lucked into that. So again, I'm jealous of you, but really excited because that today, what we want to do in our conversation is play a clip from your interview with John, because even as we were listening before we started the episode, we were like, our eyes got really big of, just, man, what he talks about, I think holds much, so much goodness, right?
Jeremy Williamson
So good.
It's so long
I, yeah, you should be jealous. It was such a good conversation. It was. I was looking forward to it. I had never met John before and like aware of his work. know, John has a strong presence in both as a pastor in New York City. Some of the work that he's done around men in the realm of just masculinity, also fathering certain a couple of great books. So knew who the dude was, was really looking forward to getting to kind of feel him out as a person.
And overall, the interview was just, I feel like epic. And I told him that in the interview and it just so good. So I'm really glad both for the summit when the guys are going to get to come in and just and watch the whole thing. But this clip right now is like it's money. It's so good, Jesse.
Jesse French
Yeah. All right. Well, I'm going to play it. And as I'm seeing it up, I think the preface, the context is I think you had asked John the question of like, what do men actually need to what's the message they need to hear or like a central central message that they need to be able to digest and receive in their life. So without further ado, here's the excerpt from Jeremy's interview with John as part of the summit.
Jon Tyson
If I could say anything to men, it would be like, we need you. You know, there's that famous Steinbeck quote, know, boys become men when men are needed. I've seen boys 40 years old because nobody told them they were needed as a man. And I think that that's absolutely true. We need to say to men, hey, we need you. We need you to show up. Your world needs you. Your community needs you. The church needs you. The world needs you. Got to call them out. Got to call them into something. I think we were that was the genius of Jesus.
Jesus went around calling people into a greater vision than they thought possible for their lives. lot of times people judge the disciples for wanting, you know, arguing about the greatest. And I was like, listen, I see that very differently. I don't think any of these guys ever believed that anything great was possible for their lives until they met Jesus. And Jesus had a capacity to make them think as ordinary teenage
Jeremy Williamson
Thank
Jon Tyson
man that something is greater for them than what they have been told in first century Judaism.
Jeremy Williamson
Okay.
Jesse French
So many good angles to that. Like, maybe I'll put you on the spot. I mean, as you were interviewing John, and obviously you're like holding the conversation and you're aware of that. But like, when you heard him say that, Jeremy, like, what did that stir in you?
Jeremy Williamson
I mean, it just, I think like I'm sitting here cheering them on and I feel this fire in my bones. And in part, because I think about my own experience in my own life and just what we have learned over the years as well. That's true for every man. Like we come into the world of men as like carrying the image of God, which we can't see ourselves. Like we don't, I don't know.
how I carry the image. I might have a few clues or a few ideas, but I'm bringing this uniqueness of the way that God made me into the world. But I don't, I don't have anywhere to put that strength. I don't, if unless somebody invites me, I don't know how to use it or whether it's the strength is even there. The goodness, I don't know if it's there. And I certainly don't know how to use it unless somebody who is like a father, like finds me and sees me and invites me.
and says, hey, you are a man and you have this gift and it is needed. In fact, why don't you, like Jesus said to disciples, follow me. We're gonna put you to work right over here because we need you. like that. And what we do, one of the things that John talked about for a while that you'll hear in the actual interview is when we don't experience that invitation, we end up taking our strength, whether we know it or not, and we invest it.
Jesse French
Yeah.
Jeremy Williamson
instead of showing up in the world as men because we know we're needed, we take that strength and we put it into video games. Like we take that warrior side of us, that adventure side of us, the creator side of us. We put it into video games. We take the lover side of us. We put it into pornography or the tender side of us. We put into that. So we find all of these completely useless. In fact, a lot of times harmful outlets for us because we haven't been invited into something greater because we haven't felt like we were needed.
So so that's like yeah, that's what it stirs up in me man right at the beginning
Jesse French
That's so well said. And like I'll continue to just kind of put you on the hot seat for a second. Like total estimate, but I'll ask it anyways. How many times, Jeremy, do you think you've heard like, Jeremy, we need you. A need not from a like consumptive space, but like, no, we need you because of what you're going to bring for the goodness of the world. Like, and you know, I'm putting you on the spot. Like how many times do feel like you've heard that?
In the vein that John is talking about in the vein that Jesus invited the disciples.
Jeremy Williamson
I mean, there's been plenty of people who wanted to hire me or who wanted to just like you I mean all of us have experienced like hey I want to consume this of you to look into my guts and say you all of you like Grab me by the you know, shirt like show up. We need you get in line. I don't know Not much. What about you?
Jesse French (07:08)
Yeah, a handful, you know, I mean, some of my mind goes to, mean, you, wonder if this is true for you in high school, like you played sports in high school, like maybe an analogy of like the sporting place. And obviously that's the, in the confines of like you're playing a game and your coach, you know, it's very clear in terms of kind of what they're after, but, maybe some there, right. It just like, you are.
Jeremy Williamson
You
Well said. So let's play with that for a second, Jesse, because we were the state in high school Eagles and we're like the worst football team in our country. We were so bad. But there's something about getting the uniform and like getting the jersey and getting my pads and being out on the field and being told by my coach, you are one of the brothers. Like we need you to carry your weight.
on this team so that this family, like everybody's got to show up and you've got a Jersey on. That's kind of what didn't pass out jerseys to the disciples, but that's kind of what we're talking.
Jesse French
Totally, totally right. Like well said in there is a belonging piece right to that, that, that gives credence to the coach's words, that gives credence to Jesus's words, right? Like it's not just flashy motivational speaker, you know, that just gives this lights out speech that changes. is like these words of hope that is informed by, and you are part of us, you are part of this. And so because you are part of this tribe, there is an ability for like, for those words to carry some weight.
Jeremy Williamson
And it just makes me wonder how many men are in that sense then orphaned, just not tethered, not belonging anywhere. They have a sense that they're men, they're supposed to, maybe they feel a draw, maybe they feel like they're supposed to belong to something like that, but they're they're orphaned and their strength doesn't belong to any family. Their goodness, there's not been an invitation.
Jesse French
Yeah.
Jeremy Williamson
and the way that we go haywire as men, that's the case.
Jesse French
And you had said it a couple of minutes ago around, you know, this sense of by myself, I can't have, you know, this really clear sense of the image of God that I bear. Like you're hinting at that, right? Like this is why others are needed. This is why it's not just the solo project. It is why like the orphaning is so detrimental, right? Because not only do we miss that relationship, but we miss that other set of eyes, that other set of brothers.
or a father to really be able to see that and to call that out.
Jeremy Williamson
And it makes me think of this romantic idea that we have sometimes in the West, especially where we think of the hermit that or the spiritual man who there's this masculine ideal of the strong man who just lives in the cabin by himself and he sits in his rocking chair. He's a stoic and he's just contemplating life and as romantic as that might be and as great as that might be for a short season. We were not.
made to live outside of community. We were not made to be orphaned. That ideal at the end of the day falls apart. That is a sad man whose strength is being wasted, quite honestly. The one who is just living his life isolated from the rest of the world. And maybe most of us aren't living in cabins on the side of mountains, but I wonder how many of us are that isolated.
Jesse French
Yeah, it's such, it's like a kind of a haunting question, right? To truly think about that and to say, again, like how known am I apart from people who knew of me and acquaintances and all of that, but to actually go deeper. Jeremy, I want to pick your brain on and kind of, if I could put you into John's mind and maybe speak with him or even actually probably even better, just speak for yourself. Like, I love that John used the phrase, men, need you to show up.
And I'd love to ask you like, what does that mean? Cause I think when he says we need you to show up, I love that he didn't say, man, we need you to ace the test. Like we need you to be mistakes. I think showing up is something different than that. so unpack some of that.
Jeremy Williamson
like.
I love that question, Jesse. So I just I wonder how many men are I wonder how many of us are stuck waiting to be qualified enough or ready enough to start showing up or we're waiting to get over that thing that we're ashamed about or to overcome that weakness that we perceive in ourselves before we start showing up. And one of the lessons I think for myself that I've learned just over the last five or 10 years
I never knew before, but that it is possible that they're good, man. Jesse, you're one of those for me that like I can show up ready or not. I don't have to feel fully ready or free of shame or fully like, you know, don't ever feel dumb or feel always strong enough or always have my stuff together. I can just arrive in a place ready or not, because what you're after and what the world needs is me fully me.
Not just a couple of things that I'm good at, but all of me, includes parts of me that are softer parts of me that are weaker parts of me that get messed up and dysregulated sometimes. But the invitation is like, just show up. Stop. It's like when, when God told Moses to cross the Red Sea, he was like, bro, stop praying. Stop trying to get ready. Just frigging go, just go. It's ready or not. It's going to be okay.
But I think so many of us, get frozen for decades, not just not just like weeks or months. think decades men get frozen. think men have been frozen their whole lives because they've been waiting to show up until they felt worthy of showing up or until they felt like if they showed up, you wouldn't see their weakness. Well, that's never going to happen. And so just kind of go.
Jesse French
Jeremy, what do you think helps counter that like frozen state? Like what is the disruption into that, into that way of being that might be years or decades solid.
Jeremy Williamson
One of the things I felt from John in the interview that was pretty unique to me that I'll share with that is I think sometimes we need a father or brother to literally grab us like I was saying, grab us by the shirt and throw us in the pool or maybe not throw us, but just like shove us to the front of the line and be like, go, stop, go, you're fine, go. And I don't, John did that so uniquely because I think there is a
a version of men's ministry or like thinking about masculinity that's like, you know, just kind of, we're just gonna go and like, just send it. I don't mean that. I mean, I may never feel sure enough about myself or about the situation. I may lack strength. And sometimes what I might need, Jesse, is somebody like you to look me in my eyes and say, Jeremy jump, you're fine. I trust you. Like I'm going to be right here with you, but you need to go and you could pick your metaphor.
jump out of the plane, you're on the front lines, you're hiding in the bunker, and you need a brother to just be like, come on, I'm with you, let's go, it's your time. So I think the disruption is a good man who sees you like a brother or a father would, who knows you well, and is not just beating his chest saying, let's send it, but actually says, no, I promise you, I've got more faith in you than you do right now, so borrow faith from me, let's go, you got it.
Yes.
Jesse French
Yeah, that phrase borrow my faith in you like that borrowing concept. I think Jeremy is is so important like that actually feels so much of the generosity of a father or a brother right to be like use mine like I have I have that belief in you and so maybe you don't have it by yourself. That's great. I have it in spades in you and so like I have to believe in some level. That's what the disciples felt from Jesus.
Jeremy Williamson
Can I
say that? Yes. Because here's like Peter and John in the boat. They're freetier men. They've been through little bit of education, but not a ton. They weren't qualified to be disciples of a rabbi. But he's like, you come with me. Let's go.
Jesse French
Yeah, and then just the fantastic point that Tyson makes, right, of they start arguing about who's the greatest, right? And the fact that like, what if that actually is that some of the necessary process of them wrestling with Jesus's belief in them? Like, and he goes on to say, think after that clip, we cut it off. But he says, look, part of the process was Jesus being in relationship and helping like inform some of that ambition. Right. So there was more
relationship and more apprenticing needed. But the fact that like, no, what if that is step two of the process, right? Of down the road that is somewhat needed. Yeah.
Jeremy Williamson
I feel like I've seen that in real life when you have wanted to like wrestle me and really have thought that you could beat me in Wrestling and like pin me down and it was just sweet like you it was really cool Jesse because you believed in yourself enough to want to engage and It was like you took the big risk and so we were kind of wrestling over who's greatest and you needed to learn What was actually true there was cool, but I?
Jesse French
This is my biggest fear of inviting Jeremy out of the podcast. Not that he's gonna say something like controversial. It's just that he's such a dumb ninja and skilled at crap like this that you do. And you sound just so like ingratiating and whatnot. And I know in your head, I'm like, point for Jeremy right here.
Jeremy Williamson
with this.
I think our actual so yes, Jesse and I are both aware that we're grown men and we've wrestled a few times and I don't care what you think about that. It was fun. And I think it's like two to one the actual score.
Jesse French
To me. Thank you.
Jeremy Williamson
Let's go back to what you're saying though. So, yeah, so you have these boys, these young men, the disciples who Jesus had, had just imparted into them an insane amount of belief. And their conversations around who was the greatest in the kingdom, it was when they started to realize, man, this guy's going to be huge. Some of them, I think, had already settled into he's the Messiah. And we're talking about the kingdom of God.
Like we are talking about something eternal here. think others of them were still maybe thinking that he was going to just overthrow Rome and set up some kind of government in Judea. Either way, you can see that in their maybe their immaturity, they what they did have was this incredible belief in themselves that they had been invited and belong fully belonged with Jesus. And so that comes out in a young way of like, who's the greatest?
I love John's posture toward that. I think that's actually a good sign that you've got these guys who are flexing a little bit way better for them to be flexing and to need to be like fathered intended or trained by Jesus than for them to walk around like not believing in that they had any strength or any welcome any place in the world. Yeah.
Jesse French
which then makes me think around Peter getting out of the boat or Jesus's invitation to get out of the boat and to walk on water. Right. And he starts to sink. Jesus's response is like, you know, why did you lose faith? And people way smarter than me have said, like, what if that actually was typically reinterpreted that right? Like, you know, Peter lost faith in Jesus. People said, yeah, that's probably true. And also, could it be true that, like, he lost faith in himself as well? And so, like, again, to that place of
Jeremy Williamson
Yeah, well.
Jesse French
Jesus's incredible belief in who we are and that imitation as John says into a vision much bigger than we could imagine for ourselves.
Jeremy Williamson
And isn't that, isn't that the way that we see evil working against men so, so clearly. It's not that like he can't destroy our strength. He can't take it away. It's a gift of God. It's the image you got. It's hardwired. It's been there from before we were born. It's always going to be there. So, but what he can do is convince us to put it away or not to use it because he convinces us that we don't have it. Even though we're holding it, it's in our DNA.
He convinces us that we don't and so we sink or we hide or we stop believing so then we don't show up because we don't know we can't.
Jesse French
Yeah. Ah, which makes me just wonder like to get granular for a second. As people are listening, like I just wonder how that notion of belief in the best way, like this grabbing of the shirt, like from Jesus of like, you are able for this. Like how those words land today, whenever, whenever you're listening, like in the midst of your commute, your work day, like as responsibilities and relationships and that whole
whole stew of life, like, how do those words nestle into your thoughts today?
Jeremy Williamson
And maybe, maybe we'll just say it like for you that are listening. I don't know who you are, but if you're a man listening to this, you are not disqualified. You are one of the men, every bit on the team, as much on the team as anyone else. You've got the Jersey. And if you could feel the coach today grabbing you, not because he's mad at you or because he's disappointed in you, but if you could feel the coach grabbing your shirt.
and looking at you in your eyes and saying, Hey, it's your turn. I know you have what it takes. It's your turn to show up. I have every anticipation that like, however you show up, it's going to be everything we need. There's no dropping the ball here. There's no worry about executing the play well. Like what all we need is you to be present. You've got it because that's how God designed you to be. I want to say that to everybody directly.
and let that sink in and then wonder like you're saying, Jesse. So how does that feel? Do you believe that? Do you have a list of reasons why you're disqualified from that? Do you feel cynical about that?
Jesse French
Yeah, yeah. Jeremy, why is the man who is willing to show up in the messiness of his life, unconcerned with what qualifications he does or doesn't have? Why is that good news for those around him and for the world?
Jeremy Williamson
Because I think perhaps, Jesse, the parts of a man that are able to show up when he is unconcerned with how qualified he is are the parts that we need the most. Because when we only show up with our strength or with our power and not our tenderness, the softer parts of us that we're often ashamed of, the world, I think, can be harmed through that.
the world doesn't get this sort of masculine tending and care that it aches for. And so when we show up unconcerned, then suddenly my wife, my kids, my community has access to parts of me that they actually need. Even though they might feel not ready, they might feel not sufficient, they might I'm surprised that people want those parts of me. It's they actually do. And so yeah, I think I think people get access to what they actually need.
from then when we show up unconcerned.
Jesse French
And don't you think it's true in addition, like in that process, there's also invitation to others of like, and I want you simply to show up. I don't need your performative self as well. Right? Like if we can show up in that open-handed integral way that also says like, that can be true. And that as that's what's wanted out of you as well. It's not the like ace the test mentality and performance.
Jeremy Williamson
You don't have to catch the football. It's that's not what that metaphor dies here It's just like show up and be a part of the Banner brothers. Like we just want you and yeah, you're showing up invites other men to show up as well I love it. said Jesse
Jesse French
So good. good. Jeremy, as we kind of like around the corner on this conversation, the summit is depending on when people listen to this, it's coming up the end of September. If you listen after that, like all of those interviews and those conversations are living in a place called the Grove Collective, which will be in the show notes. People can join there. So it's not just a one and done shot if you listen to it afterwards. But I want to ask maybe this last question of like
Why did we as an organization say like, Hey, we want to gather these different voices and talk about restorative masculinity. Like I want to ask the big old philosophical question, especially as we get closer to it of why did we do that? And why are we helpful around what the summit and what this conversation would be part of.
Jeremy Williamson
Jesse, I'm just I'm aware that you and I are recording this on a day that feels like part of a particularly dark and difficult like season in our country. There's been a lot of death and a lot of loss and a lot of darkness. And to be honest, today we're recording this also on 9-11, like the 24th anniversary of that. And so I think today in particular, I'm feeling the weight of what happens when isolated
and broken and unrestored men are present in society. Like we have great capacity to destroy families and worlds. And we felt that deeply this week. But we believe Restoration Project doesn't have to be that way. That if men would step up with a little bit of intentionality and if we would just address our wounds, if we would just take a look at what it might mean to be a restorative man.
we can actually bring restoration to the world. So where there has been harm, I think not only can we bring healing for that harm, but there is so much more goodness, like in the positive, that we can bring as men into the world when we're whole. And the influence of good men and the influence of bad men has been held or felt in all of history and it will always continue to be felt. And so I think we're just fighting, like we're putting up a flag saying, listen, this matters.
And we know this is just a couple of days to listen to some talks with some really brilliant speakers and authors and great people. But I get that this is just a day, I hope that, or a couple of days, but I hope that this can be the beginning of a deep, deep journey for the men who choose to engage. It's like to actually be whole. And then when men are whole, families are whole, communities are whole, everything changes.
Jesse French
Yeah. Yeah. So well said. The stakes are so real, right? Yeah. Jeremy, thanks. Thanks for your time. Your your insight, your voice, man. It's fun to fun to have you in this conversation. Thanks for thanks for joining us.
Jeremy Williamson
Dude, so good to be here, So good. Thank you.
Jesse French
Awesome. Look forward to the next time.