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Work-life balance isn’t a myth—it’s a mission. At The Double Win Podcast we believe that ambitious, high-growth individuals can experience personal and professional fulfillment simultaneously. Hosted by the creators of the Full Focus Planner, Michael Hyatt and Megan Hyatt Miller, The Double Win Podcast is your go-to resource for unlocking secrets to productivity, wellness, and work-life balance.
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[00:00:00] Jon: Negative. is temporary energy. I say it's like steroids of the soul. Anger, for example, it gives you a boost of temporary energy, but anger runs out and you got to keep fueling up with it over and over again while you're destroying yourself in the process.
[00:00:18] Michael: Hi, I'm Michael Hyatt.
[00:00:19] Megan: And I'm Megan Hyatt Miller.
[00:00:20] Michael: And you're listening to The Double Wind Show.
[00:00:23] Megan: So today we have the pleasure of talking with our friend John Gordon. John is a best selling author of over 25 books. I'm like, oh my gosh, 25 books! I know,
[00:00:32] Michael: wow.
[00:00:33] Megan: That is a lot of books, um, including the Energy Bus and the Power of Positive Leadership. He's a frequent speaker, like a hundred times a year, a frequent speaker for companies, sports teams, and organizations worldwide, emphasizing the power of positivity and teamwork.
[00:00:48] He's also the co author of Difficult Conversations Don't Have to Be Difficult with Amy Kelly, focusing on strategies for constructive communications. His clients include Fortune 500 [00:01:00] companies, professional sports teams, and educational And he lives in Florida with his wife and children, where he continues to write and speak about achieving success through positive energy.
[00:01:10] Michael: And without further ado, here's our conversation with John Gordon.
[00:01:17] Megan: Hey, John, welcome to the show.
[00:01:19] Michael: It's great to be with you both. Great to be with you, John. We were supposed to be together at a speaking engagement. We missed each other. Unfortunately, because I saw you on the program and I was looking forward to saying hi to you, but we didn't get that chance. I saw you speak.
[00:01:32] You and
[00:01:32] Jon: Megan both did a great job and great audience. We're talking the biggest name coaches in the industry all in one room speaking to them. I spoke as well there and then you did. And I thought, what a great setting.
[00:01:45] Megan: Yeah. We want
[00:01:45] Michael: to talk about several things, but I want to start with kind of your journey.
[00:01:50] How did you get to where you are today? You know, what would have been the major milestones along the way? Well, the major
[00:01:56] Jon: milestone for me is when my wife threatened to leave [00:02:00] me because I was so negative and miserable. People were surprised to hear that because I wrote a book called the energy bus. My message is all about positivity as you see on the shirt.
[00:02:09] And yet I'm not naturally positive. I really struggled with it. And. It came to a point where I lost my job during the dot com crash, didn't know how I was going to pay the bills, didn't know how I was going to support the family. I am crumbling from the inside out and I feel like such a failure. I'm blaming my wife for why my life has not turned out the way I want it to.
[00:02:31] And so she had enough of my negativity because I was blaming her. She said, if you don't change, we're over. I'm not going to live with someone who is like this to me and makes me so miserable. And it was a huge wake up call. So in that moment, I had a choice change, or my wife was going to leave me and divorce me.
[00:02:48] And that began this journey of working to become a more positive person. I began to research ways I could be more positive. This is in 2001, 2002. So now I'm, I'm [00:03:00] literally researching the emerging field of positive psychology. It's now an advanced field, but I began. Researching ideas, began practicing them and began writing about them.
[00:03:10] I, I asked what I was born to do. Like, why am I here is what I asked. Like on my hands and knees and writing and speaking came to me in that moment. And I said, okay, I'm going to go do this. I don't know how long it's going to take to be. Successful to work. I don't know if I will be successful, but I'm just going to go for it.
[00:03:28] And I'm going to go do this work and try to encourage people the way I want to be encouraged. So that was a huge milestone. And then from that moment on, I began trying to speak. I did about 80 free talks. All the while I opened up a most Southwest grill franchise, second mortgage, my home, 20, 000 in credit cards.
[00:03:49] I needed a business to make money, to support the writing and speaking I wanted to do. And that was a whole lifetime ago, incredible experiences because almost went bankrupt [00:04:00] several times, eventually made the restaurants successful. I eventually opened up four of them, sold them in 2005 and said, okay, now I'm going to focus 100 percent on writing and speaking.
[00:04:11] Now the writing and speaking was not successful at that time. Like I was doing a couple of engagements here and there, maybe one a month, two a month, and I told my wife, all right, we're selling the restaurants. I really had to focus. 100 percent on this. This is what I want to do. And my wife said, what happens if it doesn't work?
[00:04:29] Like you're not even good at writing and speaking. I said, there are no other options. I have to go for it. I have to try it right after that decision of selling my modes, which I did and getting a chunk of money, not a huge amount. It's not like you could retire forever on it, but it was enough that said, okay, now this would allow me to have some runway to get started.
[00:04:51] I began. focusing on doing this work, but all of a sudden everything dried up. Nothing was going well. [00:05:00] I'm now thinking about giving up writing and speaking on a walk one day, and I'm praying, and then the idea for the energy bus comes to me. And I wrote that book in three and a half weeks of true God inspiration.
[00:05:13] I truly believe it was a gift that I was given to then share with others and, and the world. I'm 35 years old at the time. And I began writing this book. I am now 53. I've been doing this work and still speaking on the energy bus all these years later. The book still sells more every year than it did the year before.
[00:05:34] And it's my bestselling book. All the while I wrote it at 35 years old. So I would say that's like some amazing major milestones. Amazing. Now, when I wrote the book, it was rejected by 30 publishers, and so Michael might even reject it. I don't know if he saw it or not, but he might even rejected it. Back in the day, I may have, my first book was rejected
[00:05:51] Michael: 30 times,
[00:05:52] Jon: so you know what that's like and you're being told to give up.
[00:05:56] It's not gonna happen. You don't know what the future holds, but [00:06:00] you just know that you have to keep on going. Keep believing, keep hoping, keep dreaming. And that's what I did. And eventually John Wally and Sons agreed to publish the book. Bookstores wouldn't carry it at first. I went on a 28 city tour around the country by myself, paid for it myself.
[00:06:16] Publisher wouldn't pay for it. And I went from city to city and we had like five people in one city, 10 people in another, 20 in another. The most people we had were a hundred people in Des Moines, Iowa. They thought Jeff Gordon was coming. That's why they showed up.
[00:06:30] Megan: Oh, that is hilarious. And I got home
[00:06:33] Jon: and I didn't know what the future held.
[00:06:34] And that's not a joke, by the way, that's a true story. And I said, I just got to live and breathe the vision and mission every day. And it was to inspire and encourage as many people as possible, one person at a time. And so here we are now 29 books later, and this is what I'm doing.
[00:06:50] Michael: So talking about the energy bus, for the few people on the planet that haven't read it, can you give us kind of the premise of it and, you know, what you tried to accomplish in the book and why it's selling better every year?
[00:06:59] It's
[00:06:59] Jon: [00:07:00] about a guy named George who's miserable and negative. His team at work is in disarray and George was based on me and my own personal struggles with negativity. So he's got this team at work that's dysfunctional. His wife's about to leave him because he's so negative. And he gets a flat tire. So he has to take the bus to work.
[00:07:18] There's no Uber at the time when I wrote the book, right? So he has to take the bus to work and he gets on the bus and he meets joy, the bus driver. And she had to cast the characters on the bus, teach him the 10 rules for the ride of his life that. Not only have I become a more positive father, leader, but a better person, a better husband.
[00:07:37] And it's about getting his team on the bus and moving in the right direction with a shared vision, focus, and purpose. And I really think it's about the fact that every one of us is going to have to overcome negativity. Adversity and challenges to ultimately define ourselves and our team success. And the main message is you have to overcome negativity with positivity.
[00:07:57] And I think it really resonates because, you know, years [00:08:00] ago, when I first wrote it, people were not talking about positivity. People weren't talking about soft skills. People weren't talking about purpose and loving your passengers and fueling up with positive energy. And. Enthusiasm and all these different principles.
[00:08:14] And now it's become commonplace. So I think the book was ahead of its time in a lot of ways. And now it's sort of like. The perfect time for right now of dealing with negativity, adversity, and challenges. Like coaches still use energy vampires as a major term. Many companies read the book and say, we got to get rid of this negativity that's sabotaging us.
[00:08:35] Cause no one really talks about the negativity that exists, but when they read the energy bus as an organization, it brings it to the light. You now address it and then you get better because of it. Like every organization gets better after they focus on this negative, feed the positive, and that allows them to improve performance.
[00:08:53] Same thing with schools. We have an energy bus for schools program and something I'm really proud of. We are in hundreds of schools now that [00:09:00] have done the energy bus program to weed the negative, feed the positive. Enhance their culture, create a better learning environment for students to change their lives.
[00:09:09] Megan: I love that. Would you mind sharing with us a few of the principles from the energy bus, those 10 that you mentioned? Um, because I think that would be really helpful to our
[00:09:19] Jon: listeners. The first one is you're the driver. Like you decide the kind of ride it's going to be. You're the driver of your bus. And that's all about ownership.
[00:09:28] Before Jocko Woonick was talking about ownership, right? I wrote about. Owning your journey as the driver of your bus, you take the wheel and you decide what kind of ride it's going to be. Ultimately as a, as a man of faith, I believe God is the ultimate driver of our bus. But at the same point, God wants to take responsibility for our lives and know that we can actually take actions that will improve our lives and we can have the right kind of energy.
[00:09:55] That we show up every day. Are you going to be an energy giver or an [00:10:00] energy taker? Are you going to be positively contagious with your energy to others, or are you going to spread and infect others with your negative energy? What is it going to be? So you're the driver is essential. Another rule I love is.
[00:10:13] Fueling your ride with positive energy every day. You gotta make sure that you are feeding yourself with positivity in order to feed others. Because if, if you don't have it, you can't share it. So every day it's about making sure that you fuel up to fuel others, and that's essential. And there are ways to do that that I share strategies in the book that I share, that I actually still do to this day.
[00:10:34] Like a gratitude walk in the morning success journal at night. I actually just came out with a success. Journal all these years later. I saw that after talking about it for so long. You write down your success of the day and every night you go to bed a success. Every morning you wake up a success. You're now creating more and more success in your life because what you focus on starts to show up more in your life.
[00:10:56] Like go look for blue cars on the road today. You [00:11:00] will see more blue cars, the brains and antenna. So what we focus on, we'll start to see more of. So that's one of my favorite rules. And obviously no energy vampires allowed is one of the rules.
[00:11:10] Megan: Okay, tell us what an energy vampire is. That's a very strong label.
[00:11:14] It's a
[00:11:15] Jon: label. And there are some in today's day and age, oh, we don't like to label people energy vampires, you know, but they are draining people's energy. So yes, they are energy vampires. They're sucking the life out of the team, out of the organization. And no one really wants to be an energy vampire. And I was an energy vampire in my own journey.
[00:11:32] To my wife early on. So I know what that's like. So yes, there are people who drain our energy. So your positive energy has to be greater than all the negativity. Your certainty, your belief has to be greater than all the doubts. I remember telling my dad, I want to be a writer and speaker. And his response is what the heck you want to do that for?
[00:11:51] That's a load of junk that won't amount to anything. So you could say he was a naysayer energy vampire at the time. And then I wind up getting on the Today Show several [00:12:00] years later, he watches me on TV. I, I get out of the studio, he calls me up, he's like, your mother, I just saw you on TV. You really made a difference.
[00:12:08] We're so proud of you. We always knew you could do it. So he didn't remember being negative. And then the funny thing is I started speaking and as I am getting, I can't believe people actually pay you to speak. He goes, when you were a kid, we paid you to shut up. And so that's what I grew up with. Just so you know, so energy vampires could be naysayers or people that just drain your energy and they're really like in many ways, black holes.
[00:12:33] So you have to. Learn how to deal with them. And the biggest mistake that teams and organizations make is they allow the negativity to persist. And then as it exists, it eventually will sabotage your team if you don't deal with it. So we give leaders their permission and the tools to deal with the negativity that is sabotaging their team or will sabotage it and will destroy it if you do not address it.
[00:12:58] Megan: That's so interesting. [00:13:00] I was having a conversation years ago with a client. We were talking about some frustrations that she had in her business and she just been offered a big new opportunity, big new contract. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, that's amazing. Like this is what we've been, you know, working toward.
[00:13:15] And it was so fascinating how everything I said, she came back. With why it wouldn't work. It was like the biggest opportunity she'd ever had. The thing she'd been praying for, hoping for, wishing for. It's finally going to happen. And she had all these reasons why it was going to be a disaster. And so she kept, you know, as I kept trying to say, well, what about this?
[00:13:34] Well, maybe it's not like that. Maybe it's like this. It was like everything. There was a negative comeback to. How do you deal with that? You know, if you're talking to someone, maybe it's in your family, maybe it's a client, maybe it's a coworker and you're trying to be encouraging and they're just like hell bent on not being encouraged.
[00:13:50] Like, what do you do?
[00:13:52] Jon: You know where it's coming from with that person. Like what I've learned is you can't drive someone else's bus. You can only drive [00:14:00] your bus. So you can't change them and must come from. but we can educate, we can encourage my newest book. The one truth is a book that explains why people are like that, why they're experiencing more and more negative thoughts.
[00:14:17] It's really the most profound revolutionary book I've ever written. And it came to me over a series of walks when I was in California a few years ago. And it would explain like that person, They actually feel unworthy.
[00:14:30] Megan: Yeah. She
[00:14:31] Jon: actually feels unworthy. So she feels like she doesn't deserve it. So the negativity comes in and the lack of belief comes in because she doesn't feel unworthy.
[00:14:38] So there's a, there's a root cause that's causing that. Yeah. The root for the Greek word of anxious means to separate and divide. And so someone's anxious, they feel separate. and divided. What does fear do? Divides. All mental health disorders report feelings of isolation, disconnection, and separation. So what I have found on this journey and [00:15:00] what I wrote about is that everything comes down to oneness and separateness.
[00:15:03] And so a person like that actually feels very disconnected. So they actually feel weak and powerless and they feel like their circumstance. is more powerful than them. But the truth is, and those who feel really connected, those who feel powerful, they know that they are more powerful than their circumstance.
[00:15:21] Yeah. They can actually rise above, they can overcome. They know they have the power within them to overcome. And so I would say like, that person just needs to be encouraged to understand how their thoughts are working and the lies you're believing. Like, she is definitely believing the lies that have come in to shape her and to, I would say, to mislead her into her true power.
[00:15:44] So it's understanding the truth of the power you possess.
[00:15:48] Megan: So you were talking about your own story, which in some ways kind of mirrors the one that, you know, I'm telling about this client. How did you go from being so oriented toward negativity, [00:16:00] like what are the things that you did that enabled you to really make that shift to where in an authentic way, it sounds like you were able to become someone who is positive and not, you know, sucking the life out of everybody around you.
[00:16:13] Jon: Yeah, that's, that's such a great question because I changed a lot. Like my teammates from college, I played lacrosse at Cornell university. They can't believe what I'm doing now because I was the biggest mental wreck back in the day. Like I was. I was not mentally tough. And even in my twenties, early thirties, I was not mentally tough.
[00:16:34] The change happened when I started to take walks of gratitude every day. I began taking walks of gratitude cause I read you can't be stressed and thankful at the same time. And this is after my wife threatened to leave me. I read that research and I began walking, practicing gratitude. Those walks of gratitude turn into walks of prayer.
[00:16:54] So as I began walking and praying daily, what was I doing? [00:17:00] I was tuning my mind into the spirit. I was tuning my brain into something positive versus the negative. I said the brain is an antenna. There's actually two main frequencies, positive and negative. It's why everything in this world actually comes down to positive and negative in this world.
[00:17:18] So and so's being positive, so and so's being negative. We just talked about politics, seeing all the negative in politics right now. And what you realize is those two main frequencies, the brain is either tuning into one or the other. And so what I did was I began tuning into The positive every day instead of the negative.
[00:17:36] So what is tune T U N E trusting, uniting with love instead of fear that divides unite with love. That's the U N neutralize the negativity and E Elevate your thinking with mindfulness and meditation and prayer. Great way to elevate your state of mind. So looking back, that's what I was doing daily and I didn't realize at the [00:18:00] time, but this is why positive strategies actually work because they get you tuned into a higher frequency that uplifts you and nourishes you rather than the lower frequency of negative energy that brings you down and cause you to feel divided, powerless, and weak.
[00:18:15] Does that make sense? Yeah.
[00:18:16] Megan: I'd love for you to unpack that even more. Cause I think, You know, if somebody is thinking in themselves, okay, I've fallen into negativity, I've had a rough couple of years, you know, I want to start doing these walks or tell us more about how we would bring that into action.
[00:18:30] Jon: Yeah. So when I walk, I just say what I'm thankful for. And as you do that, you're flooding your brain and body with these positive emotions that uplift you rather than the stress hormones that slowly drain you. And you're creating a fertile mind that is ready for great things to happen. Like you're tuning into that.
[00:18:45] At higher frequency. So I walk while I'm walking. I, you know, I'm just saying what I'm thankful for. I start with small things. I'm thankful. I can walk thankful for my health, thankful for my, my family. I'm thankful for this life that I get to, to write [00:19:00] books that people actually read. That's a good feeling.
[00:19:02] I'm thankful that through all the struggles, all the adversity, I'm growing, I'm getting better. So I'll just be practicing gratitude along the way while I'm walking. You can do it for 10 minutes. 15 minutes. Sometimes they do it for an hour. The thing is every day you're being consistent with it. And it's wild because you literally rewire your brain from negative to positive.
[00:19:24] Megan: Yeah, that's awesome. And
[00:19:25] Jon: then, and then it's the prayer comes in and then it's praying, trusting and surrendering, you know, all addiction programs, they work towards healing through connection, connecting through community, not being isolated and alone, but connected through community. We heal in a loving relationship.
[00:19:44] Relational psychology shows us and then spiritually connecting to a higher power. As you connect to a higher power, you find more healing in that. And so there's a lot of power in prayer. So I'll just surrender. I'll trust, I'll praise. [00:20:00] Sometimes I'll repent. I'll ask, I'll receive. I have a whole like I came up with an acronym for it and I've been teaching it lately and people are actually really benefiting from it.
[00:20:08] It's in the back of the one truth as well, because what I realized was If you don't do this every day, right? If you don't do this every day, it's like skipping workouts with your body. If you don't work out, you don't develop a strong body. You need to develop a strong mind and spirit by doing this on a daily basis.
[00:20:25] What's the acronym? It's P R A Y E R. So it starts with praise in God. And then it's R, repenting, which is not always fun, but I repent, and I just ask for forgiveness. Then it's A, you ask God for what you want. It's not always going to be given to you, but you ask. And then it's Y, yield. You yield, which means surrender.
[00:20:45] So you surrender and yield. And then the E is expect. Expect that great things are happening. Expect that great things are going to happen. Expect that Miracles. You know, expect miracles, expect that God will deliver on promises. [00:21:00] And then the R this is key, receive a lot of people, they don't, they don't receive the blessing God wants to give them.
[00:21:07] They don't feel worthy or they actually don't believe that God could actually deliver on it. So guess what? They cut off the flow of abundance and blessings that are meant for them. So receiving is actually a big part of it. Wow. And I have no problem, uh, receiving . I ask to receive all the time.
[00:21:29] Michael: Do you think the world. Is more negative today in 2024. And we're recording this that it was in, what'd you say? 2005 when you wrote it. I think
[00:21:40] Jon: there's always been negativity. I don't think it's more negative. I think we're just seeing
[00:21:45] the negativity
[00:21:46] Jon: because of social media, because of TV and the amplification and the ability for everyone who has a voice to put it out there.
[00:21:55] Research shows that. 80% of the population vibrates to a [00:22:00] negative frequency, and this has been studied like years ago, 20% positive. So there's always less positivity than negativity. I think we're just seeing more of it. But here's the cool thing. When you study this stuff, if you didn't have the positivity, the world literally would self-destruct from all of the 80% negativity.
[00:22:20] Positivity is actually much stronger. Then negativity, there's just a lot less of it. So it seems like it's weaker, but when one person stands up with positivity to negativity, they're able to overcome. And Gandhi is a great example. We're talking about a 90 pound man who was able to defeat a British empire with the ideals of freedom, right?
[00:22:42] Those ideals were stronger than all of the negativity and oppression.
[00:22:46] Michael: Wow. Well, it seems like one of the challenges today. is that negativity sells. In other words, there's a commercial interest in using negative messaging because people respond more to fear [00:23:00] and to negativity than they do to positivity.
[00:23:02] So I think that those of us who are committed to being positive, we've got big headwinds. That we have to break through
[00:23:08] Jon: such a great point. There is more negativity and it sells more because people are fearful and fear is all about survival. Positivity is the way we thrive and positivity is the competitive advantage.
[00:23:22] You are much stronger. You perform at a higher level. You're more powerful when you are positive versus negative. Negative is temporary energy. I say it's like steroids of the soul anger. For example, it gives you a boost of temporary energy, but anger runs out and you got to keep fueling up with it over and over again while you're destroying yourself in the process.
[00:23:46] It's a steroid that gives you a boost of energy, but over time it's destroying you from the inside out. Positivity. Which comes from the source of love is sustaining. I say, as you begin to seek positivity in your life, you will [00:24:00] eventually find the source of it. And what is the source? I truly believe it's a loving God.
[00:24:04] And because there is love, there is positivity.
[00:24:07] Michael: I want you to imagine for a moment that you're going in as a consultant and you probably do some of this, but you're going into a, um, advise a leader that is inherited a very negative culture. Where there's backbiting and gossip and slander and lack of cooperation and internal conflict and all that kind of stuff.
[00:24:28] And I think most of us that have been in leadership have found ourselves in those situations before. How would you advise them based on what you know about energy and positivity to turn the ship around? I've done a lot of that with, with
[00:24:41] Jon: companies and with sports teams. And it's been fun to watch sports teams that I've worked with transform.
[00:24:47] Matt Ryan was a rookie quarterback when I went to go work with the Atlanta Falcons. And Mike Smith was a rookie coach. They were a four and 12. They went to 11 and five. Sean McVay. I worked with Sean when he took over the Rams. They were four and [00:25:00] 12. They went to 11 and five. And so I've worked with a lot of different coaches that have turned around programs.
[00:25:05] Dabo Sweeney at Clemson. I've worked with the last. 13 years, Sark at University of Texas. When he got the job, I got a chance to meet with him. So I've worked with a lot of great leaders and cultures, but then I've worked with some teams that you go in there and you work with them and they don't turn around and they don't have success because I always say I'm not the reason for the success.
[00:25:23] I also spoke to the Cleveland Browns. Everyone usually laughs at that. And the key here is the leader. And it's the culture and you give them the tools and the framework, but they've got to implement it. And it begins with the leader saying, okay, this is what our culture is going to be about. This is what we are going to stand for.
[00:25:42] And we identify our core values, which you've done a million times with organizations, Michael, you help them identify their core values, what the mission is, what our vision is, and we get very clear on that. What do we stand for now? It's about. Do you all stand for this? Are you going to stand for this?
[00:25:59] Now you have [00:26:00] to find out who's going to be on your bus. You now have to get buy in and this is where some people are going to get on and some people won't. Now, while you're creating those visions and values, you're also talking to the team, you're developing the relationships, more one on one communication during that time, one on one connection.
[00:26:20] Each person, how can you lead someone? If you don't know them, how can you motivate someone? If you don't know what motivates them, you got to make sure you're communicating to know where they are, that it's collective communication and collective connection. I've got to foster a connection amongst the team.
[00:26:35] So I'm using my book, the power of positive team. In that example, the principles and practices that make great teams. Great. So we're going in, we're talking about culture. We're finding our values. We're, we're talking about that. We're talking about Then we're identifying who's going to be on the bus, who isn't, we're building the relationships.
[00:26:51] Those who are on it now are making a commitment to that. And then it's about making sure that we actually live those principles. There's integrity. Also, we have [00:27:00] to make sure that we are reinforcing them through stories. And we're not wavering. Like we've got to make sure we don't waver. A great book is Alan Mulally and it called American icon when he turned around Ford and they were losing 13 to 14 billion and how he did that.
[00:27:17] He defined his leadership style as positive leadership. And so when I wrote the power of positive leadership, a lot of it was based on a lot of the ways he led, but that's how I work with a team and organization. I go in there, energy bus, use it for your culture. Positive leadership. Let's get the leaders with the right frame of mind, with the right practices, powerful, positive team.
[00:27:38] Let's get the team now working together and going through these principles and practices that will make the team stronger, more united and connected. And then you start to see the culture turn around, but you got to outlaw. You got to outlaw negativity in terms of no gossip. You got to implement the no complaining rule, which is a great rule.
[00:27:57] You're not allowed to complain unless you come with a solution. Okay. [00:28:00] So no complaining unless you come with a solution. Doug Conant, when he turned around Campbell's soup, literally said, if you're not an optimist and you don't believe in our vision and mission, then we're going to have to let you go.
[00:28:11] They let go of a bunch of pessimists. He replaced them with optimists and that's how he turned around Campbell's soup. So you literally have to find out who's going to be with you or not, but you have to be the leader also that stands by those principles, you And you have to make sure you're leading the right way as well.
[00:28:26] And I've seen so many turnarounds by doing that kind of formula.
[00:28:30] Michael: I've noticed that some negative people you just can't turn around. It's like they're addicted to their negativity, because it like it puts them in the center of a drama and gives them a sense of significance. And they don't realize they're doing it, but it's hard for them to let go of that, because all of a sudden they wouldn't have the same.
[00:28:49] They wouldn't get the same attention that they would is when they're negative.
[00:28:52] Jon: Our good friend, our good mutual friend, Donald Miller would say that everyone is telling themselves a story. Yeah. And so [00:29:00] they are telling themselves a story. They are living a story. I always say, what story are you living? Is it a drama?
[00:29:07] Is it a horror story or is it an inspirational tale? And so we got to meet that person and help them tell a better story, knowing they're telling themselves a drama every single day, but you're right. They've been telling themselves a negative story for so long. And I truly believe it's because they are tuned into the negative thoughts.
[00:29:26] The negative programming, the negative beliefs. Remember this. You're not the thoughts you think you're the thoughts you believe negative thoughts are going to come in all the time. What thoughts you believing and what stories are you choosing to believe about yourself? I've had stories where I've been rejected, where my biological father left when I was a year old, not the New York city police officer who raised me.
[00:29:47] That was my stepfather raised me. My biological father left when I was a year old. So what story am I listening to? And then, um, When it becomes a pattern, it's hard to shift. Our other good friend, John Acuff, would [00:30:00] say that there's a soundtrack you're playing. You turn on that radio dial when you get into your car.
[00:30:05] My wife was being really negative for a while, and she was always the positive one, but she was being really negative. And I said, Honey, it's like you're actually getting into your car. And you're playing the same song all the time that it's automatically tuned into that station. We get to tune the dial and start tuning into a more positive station.
[00:30:24] But I don't think it's because people want to be that way. I don't think people really want to be that way. And I don't think they're addicted to the negativity. I just think that they don't even know another way and they haven't been shown a different perspective and mindset on how to be Another way.
[00:30:40] Megan: Yeah, I was just thinking back to some of the things you were saying about leadership, and I'm curious to know what are the biggest mistakes that you've seen leaders make when they encounter negativity on their teams, because I imagine it's not just as simple as. Now we're positive the end, you know, that, uh, there's a lot of ways you can go off track.
[00:30:59] [00:31:00] And I think, you know, our audience are people, whether they're leading teams or, you know, they're, they're just kind of in peer leadership, whatever it is, they're all in some kind of leadership, regardless of their context. So how can we use that? How can we not, not make those mistakes? And what are they?
[00:31:18] Jon: Well, the biggest mistakes that leaders make is first and foremost, is they don't create a culture that is infused with positivity. So you've got to actually talk about this at the cultural level. You have to say in your first meetings with your team, Hey, you know, I've really decided or we've decided that we really want to be a more positive team and organization.
[00:31:39] We realized the cost of negativity, how it sabotages us. I really would love your help in, in really trying to bring forth more optimism and belief and positivity in what we're doing and what we're creating. It really is the competitive advantage. And it's so funny that people think positivity is like Pollyanna positive, where they roll their eyes when they hear it, but like when you really present it.
[00:31:58] From a business standpoint, which is [00:32:00] what I have worked so hard to do and what our whole business involves around working with organizations, like people say, Oh, you're about positivity and energy. No, we're really about fixing problems and finding solutions and we do a lot, a lot of consulting and a lot of issues, but it all will boil down to in many ways, those two frequencies that we have to get people thinking about.
[00:32:18] At the cultural level, you have to make sure you address it. I think that's a big part of the mistake that leaders don't do. They just, Hey, we're going to be positive, but they don't really work at it on the cultural standpoint. The other part is we found that leaders will read the energy bus and they'll say, you're either on my bus or off my bus.
[00:32:34] So get on it. And that's it. It's like survivors. Yeah. They throw the book out and I get emails all the time. Hey, my Boss gave me your book to read and I hate my boss and they're the biggest energy vampire at all, of all.
[00:32:46] I get that a
[00:32:47] Jon: lot. They hate their boss. Their boss is an energy vampire, but they're using my book to try to get everyone in line.
[00:32:52] So then they wind up hating me. The key is it's almost like if you're a follower of Jesus, right? And you don't act like Jesus, [00:33:00] then you give Jesus a bad name. Right? And so I think there are people out there who are giving positivity, a bad name or the energy bus in that way, because they don't act like they should.
[00:33:09] So the key is, Don't say you're either on my bus or off my bus. What you've got to do as a leader, first and foremost, is build the relationship with that person and ask them
[00:33:20] to
[00:33:20] Jon: get on and invite them on the bus as you're building a relationship and just say why you need them, why you value them, why you appreciate them.
[00:33:30] So build the relationship with each person on your team and then ask them to get on. And that's really a key part. Again, the mistake is that people just. Shout it out. You're either on my bus and they get all negative. And the other mistake that they make is I said earlier, they don't address the negativity that exists.
[00:33:48] So it winds up eventually sabotaging the team. Like when you see it, you got to address it. Amy Kelly and I just wrote a book called difficult conversations don't have to be difficult. And that's one of the biggest mistakes is they don't have difficult [00:34:00] conversations. So you never bring the issues to the light.
[00:34:02] You stay at surface level. And as you're in surface level, you never get real commitment as a team because everyone's existing in like, but not love there's we're on the team, but we're not a team and we're not on a mission as a team because there's no commitment. So my next book I'm writing is actually about commitments of a team and how going through the fire together is how you really build a stronger team.
[00:34:29] So difficult conversations is, is essential that you have to have in order to grow as a team.
[00:34:34] Michael: You know, it seems like so much of this comes back to the leader, him or herself modeling the behavior that they want to see in the team. Yes. So in other words, you're going to replicate yourself. And if you're a negative person, you can read all the books you want on positivity.
[00:34:48] But if you're not being positive, you're not going to replicate positivity. You know, you're going to replicate who you are. Like makes like. And so to the issue where people are [00:35:00] sending you an email, like, I hate my boss. Biggest energy vampire I know. Well, that guy's never going to be successful in spreading positivity because he hasn't addressed the most important person on the bus, which is himself.
[00:35:13] That's so
[00:35:13] Jon: good. And self leadership, as you know, it starts there. You have to lead by example. You have to know your own personal challenges. What is it like to be led by you? I don't think a lot of leaders have self awareness of the kind of leadership and the kind of energy that they're sharing. And when that leader.
[00:35:33] Is reading a book just because you read the book, as you said, doesn't mean you're actually living it and living those principles. Your culture is always going to be the essence, who you are, as you're the leader, your essence is going to move forth and be put forth to your team. So you may not even have a written.
[00:35:54] Rules or principles or values written out, but every day how you're showing up and the essence you're [00:36:00] sharing, that's your real culture. And that's going to permeate throughout your organization.
[00:36:05] Michael: Do you have an assessment in your organization where a leader can figure out whether they're being negative?
[00:36:11] Cause I wonder if some of this is self awareness, like somebody thinks, well, I'm a positive person, but the people around them perceive them as being negative. Is there any kind of self assessment tool for that? We have a positive
[00:36:22] Jon: leadership assessment and it tells you some of your issues are, it's not a robust assessment, very surface level, but, but it does identify where you are as a positive leader and what your score is and where you need to improve.
[00:36:36] So that's helpful, but I'm actually coming up with another assessment that identifies the kind of. you are and how certain aspects of positive leadership will help you in those areas of your leadership.
[00:36:50] Megan: One of the things that was so interesting that you said was about difficult conversations, because I think it would be an easy misconception for people to have that [00:37:00] being a positive leader means you're nice.
[00:37:02] You know, they think of what a negative leader would be, you know, that there may be abusive, that they're yelling at people, that they always pick out their faults and they're critical. And I think this happens a lot in our culture where we equate, you know, kindness or positivity or some of these things that seem kind of warm and fuzzy as being nice.
[00:37:23] And what I hear you saying is that telling the truth and being candid in your conversations is critically important to creating this kind of culture. So can you talk a little bit about that? Cause it's a little counterintuitive.
[00:37:38] Jon: Difficult conversations is such a fun and good quick read. Cause it's about Ruth who's struggling in her leadership, struggling with her team.
[00:37:46] She has to get them on the bus and they're having a lot of issues. So they begin having difficult conversations at the advice of an advisor of Ruth's and she's a former volleyball player. So she's trying to build teamwork and you [00:38:00] see this, you know, all the time where. Those conversations, if you don't have them, you can go south, but if you do have them and you don't do them the right way, the organization and the team could go south because you may have difficult conversations and people get emotionally charged.
[00:38:16] And so the key is one of our key principles of the star three model, which is our difficult conversations model star three S. T. A. R. It's. R3, S is small ego, big mission, T is tell the truth. You have to tell the truth, but we say tell it in love. The Seattle Seahawks have tell the truth Mondays. Every Monday they would get together.
[00:38:39] This is when Pete Carroll was the coach and they would get together and they would talk about who messed up, who needed to play better. They would show the tape, but no one took it personal because it was all about getting better. So they were telling the truth and they had a culture where everyone wanted to get better.
[00:38:54] What does that come down to? It comes down to love and accountability. So our big principle for [00:39:00] positive leadership, besides optimism and belief is love and accountability. I love you and I'm going to support you and encourage you, but I have to hold you accountable to the standards, to the culture, the principles.
[00:39:13] And the values, and if I don't hold you accountable, that means I don't love the rest of the team. I don't love our organization. And I actually don't love you because I'm letting you settle for anything, but your best. So I'm going to hold you accountable. Positive leaders are demanding. They're just not demeaning.
[00:39:30] And I'm finding it because I know a lot of positive leaders and they're some of the most competitive people I know. I am a. Competitive person. Very competitive. You can have a competitive spirit and be a very strong, positive leader. It's just the fact of it's a healthy ambition. It's healthy competition.
[00:39:49] It's healthy drive because I believe the best is yet to come because I'm positive. I'm going to take the actions necessary and help my team take the actions necessary to create the best outcome. And yes, while [00:40:00] we're competing, man, I want to win and it's good to want to win because the most successful people want to win and then.
[00:40:07] When you do win, you don't gloat when you do win, you know that you're always striving to get better. John Madden always said that winning was a great deodorant. It covers up what stinks about your team, which I just love that quote.
[00:40:20] Megan: That's fantastic.
[00:40:21] Jon: Your company might be having a lot of success right now, but guess what?
[00:40:24] There's a lot of stuff that is thinking about your team and no one knows because you're having success. So it's a deodorant. And then all of a sudden. The issues come all of a sudden the gaps are revealed and then they turn into a canyon. And then you realize, Oh, we had all these issues that we never dealt with.
[00:40:40] If you invest in the culture, invest in having difficult conversations along the way, you're going to uncover those issues long before they destroy your team from stinking so much.
[00:40:57] Megan: We have a tradition of asking all of our [00:41:00] guests the same three questions about the double win, this idea of holistic success of winning at work and succeeding at life. So. For you, John, what's the biggest obstacle right now in you getting the double win, winning at work and succeeding at life?
[00:41:15] Jon: Well, first I just want to say, I love that you're calling it the double win because that is huge.
[00:41:20] In my book, you went in the locker room first that I wrote with Mike Smith, the former coach of the Falcons. He said one of the greatest lines ever. He said, if you fail at home, it doesn't matter how much success you have at work.
[00:41:31] Right.
[00:41:32] Jon: He really felt like you're a failure if you don't succeed at home.
[00:41:35] And
[00:41:35] Jon: I really believe the same thing. I almost destroyed my family. At the expense of going after my goals and dreams and success. And so often is driven out of a wound where we're trying to be successful to fill that hole we have in our soul, but as you fill it with love and your family, and you, you find out what matters most, then you realize that your family's worth the fight.[00:42:00]
[00:42:00] And so is your work. You can be successful and fight in both places without the expense of another.
[00:42:07] Megan: Yeah.
[00:42:08] Jon: So I just love that. And my biggest challenge was, at the time, like so many, was the balance between the two. And being so driven to be successful that there were times when my family took a backseat or my relationship took a backseat.
[00:42:25] And so it's really about making your family a priority. The year that my wife said, I need your help at home. Stop traveling so much. I first responded and said, no, I'm now finally living my dream. This is everything I've worked towards. And my wife's like, no, I need your help. I'm like, honey, I'm impacting the world.
[00:42:44] She said, you didn't impact your family. And I had to get off the road because she really needed my help. I said, fine, I'll, I'll come help. I was resentful at first. I wanted a different team because my team was really struggling and messed up. They [00:43:00] were not doing well. I wasn't home much. By the end of the year, I realized I didn't need a different team.
[00:43:06] I needed to become a better leader. I needed to invest more at home. So that whole year, it was about my daughter who was 15. My son was 13, pouring into them, being there for them, serving my wife. Hardest year of my life, by the way, hardest year ever, ever. My word was served that year. And I served like no other.
[00:43:26] At the end of the year, my wife said, okay, what's going to be your word next year, selfish? I said, no, I said, it's now who I am. Like it really molded me and shaped me.
[00:43:35] I
[00:43:36] Jon: got to tell you after that experience, after that year, every book I wrote. Became a wall street journal bestseller. Everyone, every book since that time, all the way back to, I believe 2014 became a bestseller.
[00:43:51] So it was like, once I won at home, I actually was better at winning out in work and here's what I realized when [00:44:00] people are at work so often they're guilty, they're not at home and then they're at home and they're feeling guilt because they're not at home. They're not doing work. So they have a double dose of guilt and a double dose of misery.
[00:44:11] And my greatest advice is that you're never gonna find balance. It's about rhythm. When you are at work, engage at work and give everything you have at work. When you're at home, be present with your, your spouse, be present with your family, and engage with them there. And you'll be engaged at both places and you might.
[00:44:29] Not have the same balance of time, but you'll be engaged. And my daughter, you know, Michael, you have your daughter who works with you, right? You guys, you know, work together. Well, I have, my daughter's now working with me and my daughter's a speaker and she's 26 and I asked her, Jay, did I travel too much?
[00:44:45] And she said, Dad, I don't remember you gone. I remember when you were home all the time. Wow,
[00:44:50] Megan: that's awesome. When
[00:44:51] Jon: I was home, I was engaged with her. I was practicing lacrosse with her. We would go away for the summer for all these club tournaments throughout Maryland [00:45:00] and do that together. So we did have a lot of time together and yet I still did about a hundred events.
[00:45:05] We're more on the road a year, which takes you away for like 150 days. So I learned a lot of lessons with that in terms of you can do both. And what you're saying, the double win is essential. Now, my biggest challenge is my kids are older. My wife's involved in the business. I would say my biggest challenge is just finding that time where we're not always having a business meeting because sometimes Thanksgiving turns into a business meeting.
[00:45:28] Megan: Right. And I think it's
[00:45:29] Jon: about, we've got to sometimes just put it away and say, let's Be husband and wife. Let's just be a family right now and have some fun.
[00:45:38] Michael: We face that too. Okay. Second question. How do you personally know when you're getting the double win? What are the indicators? You don't feel
[00:45:46] Jon: divided.
[00:45:48] You don't feel like you're separate or missing something. You feel like you have a high state of mind. You're feeling good about your work and what you're accomplishing. You feel good about your relationships. [00:46:00] Most importantly, your relationships feel good about you because you can feel good about your relationships and they think it's a, it's a disaster, but both of you feel like you're in a good place.
[00:46:12] You're making time for what matters. Most, you're not feeling regretful. You're not living in regret. You're really feeling like you're winning at work and you're winning at home. There's, there's a feeling that you're winning in both places and yet at the same time, you're probably always going to feel like, what can I do better?
[00:46:33] And how can I do this more in both places? So I call it positive discontent, but there's still ways that you're thinking about, how can I improve in this area?
[00:46:43] Megan: Okay, last question, John, what is one ritual or routine that you rely on to do what you do? I'd love to know your speaking ritual, like your pre speaking ritual, because we didn't really talk much about speaking, but I'm sure you have one.
[00:46:56] Jon: I've been just praying more lately during the, the uh, [00:47:00] Time leading up to this, to the speech, just a little more prayer and trust and surrender. There's this feeling that when I get on stage, there's a feeling of, of, uh, expectation now, cause you've been doing it longer. You have a name now there's higher expectation.
[00:47:17] So you can feel this expectation like, Oh, I better deliver. They're paying a lot more. They are expecting you to be better. And for that, I just have to focus and show up and just. Love the audience and love the message. I'm sharing Wow and love the impact I I get that the more I focus on love Fear dissipates so I really try to focus on love and not fear people think like Oh LeBron James or these other athletes They're always confident.
[00:47:45] No, they struggle as well. And we all do I think the more the more you have success the more pressure there is because there's more expectation
[00:47:52] Megan: Sure,
[00:47:53] Jon: but pressure is believe in the lie That anything outside you can impact how you feel. So what I try to remind myself [00:48:00] is to focus inside out the love I have and share that and focus on that.
[00:48:05] Michael: Part of what I love about that is I've noticed this with my own speaking too. The more I focus on myself, the more fear and lack of confidence I feel. Yes. The more I focus on the audience. And what they need, the more free I am to give it. And so I try to get in that same mindset before I take the stage.
[00:48:25] It's all about them. It's not about me.
[00:48:27] Yeah.
[00:48:27] Michael: You nailed it. It's like
[00:48:29] Jon: the greatest advice you can give a speaker is what you just said, Michael, because so many speakers, when they get started, they're wondering what everyone thinks of them and what they're perceived as. And the key is give them a gift, give them a gift and share something with them.
[00:48:44] Your purpose is to make a difference. Focus on that. Take it off yourself. I love that.
[00:48:48] Michael: You nailed it. Well, John, thank you so much for being with us for this episode. I knew it was going to be great. I was looking forward to it and man, I wish we lived closer together. I know [00:49:00] we'd be good buddies.
[00:49:01] Occasionally we hit each other on the road, but thanks again for being with us. Well, I need to come visit you in, uh, in the Nashville area, which is where I love
[00:49:09] Jon: to visit. Please do. We'd love to have you. You're doing amazing work. You've been a pioneer, an example for me and, and so many in terms of how to build a, a great organization, great leadership.
[00:49:20] You've, you've done it all. So I appreciate you showing us the way. Thanks, John. You're very kind. Thanks, buddy. Okay. After that interview, I'm
[00:49:38] Michael: kind of energized.
[00:49:39] Megan: Yeah.
[00:49:41] Michael: Because I'm thinking about how energy is just a good way to describe the kind of culture that you want. I've never really framed it quite that way. But I think that's what you want. The kind of environment where people feed off each other's energy, and I've been in those kinds of environments where [00:50:00] that's not the case.
[00:50:00] Megan: Or where it was negative. They fed off each other's negative energy.
[00:50:03] Michael: Definitely. And you know, unfortunately, that's easier to spread. It's easier to destroy a good culture than than it is to restore a bad culture to some level of goodness.
[00:50:15] Megan: Yeah. You know, the thing that I was the most surprised about listening to John was the idea that difficult conversations are an essential part of positive leadership.
[00:50:27] Michael: But you can see why that is, because I think if you don't have those difficult conversations, then sort of the resentment or the anger or the frustration goes underground and undermines the energy of the team.
[00:50:41] Megan: Well, and if you don't have accountability, which is, you know, definitely a difficult conversation, then what do you really have?
[00:50:47] You know? And I thought, wow, that's so interesting. I mean, because. I think it would be easy to think that a positive culture or a positive team or just being a positive person just means you're nice to everybody,
[00:50:59] right?
[00:50:59] Megan: Like [00:51:00] it's equivalent to being like a nice people pleaser and telling people what they want to hear.
[00:51:03] And just like, you know, coming in and being their cheerleader all the time. But I think what he's really saying is be, be a coach, like the difference between being a cheerleader and being a coach is very, very different. And one is charged with making people their best and the other is just like, you know, being a hype person.
[00:51:21] Michael: One of the distinctions he made that I've never heard before. That is profound as he said, great leaders are demanding, but not demeaning.
[00:51:30] Megan: Yeah. I thought that was big too.
[00:51:32] Michael: And I think, I think I could work on being a little bit more demanding. I don't think I'm ever demeaning. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think sometimes I tend to be too nice.
[00:51:41] And not demanding.
[00:51:42] Megan: Are we about to have an intervention right now?
[00:51:44] Michael: We are. Things are about to change.
[00:51:45] Megan: Um, I think that's right. I mean, I think it's a difficult balance to figure out. How do you hold people accountable? How can you be demanding and have really high standards and also Empower people to go after [00:52:00] those standards, encourage them and do things that are constructive and not destructive.
[00:52:04] But I think that demanding demeaning paradigm is a helpful way to think about it. I
[00:52:09] Michael: think some of the reasons why I don't feel the need to be demanding, maybe it's just fear, but is that I tend to hire people and surround myself with people that are very demanding of themselves. Right. And it's like they're more demanding of themselves than I would be.
[00:52:25] So my attitude is if, if they're holding themselves accountable, if they're going to demand better performance of themselves, then I just want to support them.
[00:52:35] Megan: I think that's good. You know, the, the thing that is important. sometimes is to see the greatness in others that they can't see for themselves. And John talked about that, that these great coaches of these teams that he works with often, you know, they're what they want for those guys is more than they want for themselves.
[00:52:52] They get a vision for something they hadn't even been open to hadn't even crossed their mind. And I think that's great leadership, [00:53:00] you know, and, and a kind of accountability that they have. It's, you know, even different.
[00:53:03] Michael: Well, if you haven't read The Energy Bus, I highly recommend it. And I also recommend that if you haven't taken the wheel in your own leadership or your own energy, that that's where it begins.
[00:53:14] Yeah. You know, you are the driver of the bus and I like that metaphor. I want to own it for myself and realize that I have more to do with affecting the energy of our company than anybody besides you, Megan.
[00:53:28] Megan: I think that's right. Well, guys, thanks so much for listening this week. I hope you've enjoyed this conversation.
[00:53:34] I want to ask you for a favor. Would you go and rate this podcast? And if you can give it five stars. And the reason for that is not just because, you know, makes us feel good, although that's always nice. It's because we want this message of the double win, winning at work and succeeding at life to get out to the people who don't know about it yet.
[00:53:50] We want people to have the kind of freedom, the kind of success, that really comes from the double win, and they won't be able to do that unless they know about it. So help us out, leave a [00:54:00] review, and we'll see you right back here next week.
[00:54:02] Michael: See ya.