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If healthy growth is about going further than you’ve ever gone before, then it’s natural to experience some feelings of imposter syndrome along the way. But there are healthy and unhealthy ways to respond to these emotions when you notice them cropping up in your life. In this episode, Alex and Ben discuss their own experiences of imposter syndrome, along with some common situations they’ve witnessed with other leaders. They explain why imposter syndrome is ultimately about having an incorrect view of yourself and share some spiritual truths and practical actions you can take to recenter your identity and keep moving forward.
Information isn’t the gap between failure and success—action is. Path for Growth’s 1-on-1 coaching helps you create a plan and execute on what matters most for your business. Apply today at pathforgrowth.com/coaching.
Episode Recap:
- What is imposter syndrome?
- Where has imposter syndrome shown up in your own life?
- The root of imposter syndrome is pride
- Are you seeing yourself with a growth mindset or a fixed mindset?
- If you’re not living in alignment with your identity, you’ll inevitably experience instability
- How does healthy growth differ from operating out of imposter syndrome?
- Spiritual truths for fighting imposter syndrome
- David could fight Goliath because his confidence was found in God, not his own abilities
- How to shift your mindset around imposter syndrome
- Who is God? Who am I? And who are others?
- Practical actions for combating imposter syndrome
If you’re ready to move beyond just gathering information and start executing on what truly matters, Path for Growth’s 1-on-1 coaching can help. Apply now at pathforgrowth.com/coaching.
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Creators and Guests
What is Path for Growth?
Path for Growth exists to help impact-driven leaders step into who they were created to be SO THAT others benefit and God is glorified.
Okay. This is gonna be a fun one. I think it's gonna be an interesting one. Let's let's start off with, like, some fundamental basic questions just so that we can get everyone on the same page about what we're talking about. So let's start with a functional definition.
Alex Judd:What is impostor syndrome? Yeah. Tell me what you kinda learned and what you thought about as you kinda look at that question.
Ben Loy:So I guess the term impostor syndrome, when I when I did a little bit of research, first came up in the nineteen seventies. A psychologist named Pauline Rose Clance just coined the term. Classic Pauline.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Exactly. Classic Pauline.
Ben Loy:But, I mean, the gist of it is basically feeling, like, underqualified or, like an impostor or fraud, in a whatever position or role that you're in. Yeah.
Alex Judd:That's what I found too. And I actually, found like a synonym for it is fraud syndrome, which personally for me, I actually, for whatever reason, that communicates more about what it actually is to me. And and, you know, as I was kind of reading about it, researching it, thinking about my own experience with it, it's like what are the feelings and patterns associated with impostor syndrome? It's this idea that, like, man, my setbacks, mistakes, or failures are always because of me, but my successes never are. Right?
Alex Judd:It's like nothing I experience that's good ever has anything of me in it. Right? It's always luck. And then really just maybe that's, like, a pervading sense of, like, I'm a fraud, and I'm going to be found out. Like, this this entire thing that I'm building, regardless of what that thing is, your life, your business, your marriage, whatever, is a house of cards and it's going to come falling down eventually.
Alex Judd:Anything else you'd add just for people to understand, like, what we're talking about and what impostor syndrome is?
Ben Loy:Yeah. I mean, I think I created my own definition for impostor syndrome, but it points more qualified to do that?
Alex Judd:Probably not. Yeah. You know, we're gonna Well, that's a very impostor syndrome question. Ask if you're qualified. Yeah.
Alex Judd:Okay. What you got?
Ben Loy:So I said, I said impostor syndrome is an integrity deficiency and not necessarily integrity of of character, but, if integrity is being, at its most basic definition, wholeness, the impostor syndrome would be, like, the facts of your life not lining up with how you internally feel.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Man, I think you're already alluding to some of what we're gonna get into in this episode. I I also think, it's helpful to mention that, at least from what I found, as of 2019, impostor syndrome was not a recognized psychiatric disorder, and, I couldn't find anything that suggests that since 2019 it has become a recognized psychiatric disorder. And so, that's not to say it shouldn't be talked about and shouldn't be discussed. I actually think it should be discussed because everything that I saw in terms of data has suggested that the use of this term and phrase has skyrocketed, particularly over the course of the past ten years.
Alex Judd:Like, literally, one of the articles I read said, like, use of the term impostor syndrome has exploded in the last ten years. And and so whether it's, you know, been scientifically studied to the degree that the American Psychiatric Association has declared it an actual thing, data's still out on that. But it is something that anecdotally, kind of the zeitgeist is recognizing it as like, this is something that people experience, and so therefore we're gonna keep talking about it. But I also think it's why it's as believers, as people that wanna lead with wisdom, as people that wanna influence other people in a positive and healthy way. It's why it's something that's good to maybe be spending some time talking about and being really intentional about how we think about it because the jury's still out on how we respond to this thing, what this thing actually is, and I think there are unhealthy and healthy ways to respond to it.
Alex Judd:So with that, let's go to the second, kind of big fundamental question. Let's start with just personal experience. Give us some examples. Like, where have you seen this play out for yourself?
Ben Loy:It's a good question. I think well, I brought this up as a podcast conversation because I think there are multiple areas where I I have felt impostor syndrome. Mhmm. One of the really clear ones, I think, that was interesting to navigate through was when I was in the Coast Guard. And, you know, you spend I spent two years training for rescue swimmer school, and, then you go to rescue swimmer school.
Ben Loy:It's it's six months long. But when you graduate, when you finally make it through, you're not a rescue swimmer yet. You have to get qualified before you actually earn your wings. And so there's this, like, just constant impending sort of I'm not quite there, I'm not quite there, I'm not quite there. And then one day you wake up and, you know, you get qualified, you, you get to your unit, you go through all the flights, the syllabus, you get your EMT cert.
Ben Loy:And I just remember on the backside of it being like, okay, I I guess I've made it, like, I'm here. And then, you know, you have you have your first, I had my first case, and just after the fact just reflecting on it and being like, did that, like, really just happen? Like, I just I just pulled a dude out of the woods, like, am I qualified to do that? Like Yeah. I guess on paper, yes.
Ben Loy:And like but just feeling a little bit, like, when when when the reality of of you being the sole person going down to help someone in in a situation like that, actually hit me. I was like, oh, wow. Yeah. Like, I'm I had this goal and then I I have arrived and I don't necessarily I I know I'm equipped to do this, but something internally with me felt a little bit off. Like, it felt like I was like, oh, this yeah.
Ben Loy:I do I belong here?
Alex Judd:You know? Yeah. And I think that that really highlights the dissonance that occurs because my guess is you would have looked at anyone else that had walked through the process that you had walked through to become a member of the Coast Guard to be able to go on missions like that. And if you knew the process they walked through, if you knew the the intentionality, diligence, hard work that they applied to go through all that, and you knew that they were certified and I asked you objectively, Ben, are they qualified to be able to do this? Well, what would your answer have been?
Alex Judd:Yes. Yeah.
Ben Loy:And I worked with, like, 13 of them. Right?
Alex Judd:And, like, no doubt they are qualified. Yep. But me myself, like, if there's something like, I don't know if I'm qualified Yep. Yeah. Okay.
Alex Judd:So I had three areas, that I I think I I've really experienced this, particularly in the last five years. It would be impostor syndrome as it relates to success, impostor syndrome as it relates to freedom, and impostor syndrome as it relates to teaching or communicating. And so success, the story that came to mind, which I don't know if I've shared this in the podcast before. So, left my full time job to start the business. Business was going well.
Alex Judd:Probably about eight months in, I was going to Nashville, and I was like, man, it seemed like the exit went really well. Like, they were so supportive. I was just like, I wonder if Dave would be willing to sit down. And just like, I I have a lot of questions now that I didn't even know to ask eight months ago about running a business that I I mean, if I have a connection to Dave Ramsey, who's, like, probably one of the most prolific teachers on business and leadership right now, like why wouldn't I send the email? So I sent him an email and I remember clicking Sam being like, will he answer this?
Alex Judd:And immediately response came back and he said, Alex, like, would love to sit down with you. Why don't we do it at the office? Let me know if there's any other leaders in the organization you would like to be there and, like, looking forward to it. Wow. So so gracious.
Alex Judd:So awesome. And so I I got to the office and literally, like, bourbon wine charcuterie board. Like, it was, like, this is insane. Like, just unbelievably, like, abundance minded, gracious, all of that. And so we had a great conversation.
Alex Judd:How this ties into this topic is, you know, eventually he asked me, like, give me an update on how the business is going and kinda like what things are looking like. And I said, I think things are going well. I said, we've we've made it past, a six month, like, kinda benchmark with a lot of our first customers. And, I said, like, we kind of whenever they signed up, they signed up for an initial six months. It was like they were opting in for a six month process to ensure growth of their business and their personal life and all of that.
Alex Judd:And I said, just passed that, and everyone, like, re upped. And he he, like, immediately, like, interjected and said, man, that's so good. Like, that means that you're providing something that's really, really valuable and well done. And my response to that was, yeah. I I hope that's the case.
Alex Judd:And he stopped me, and he said, what do you mean you hope that's the case? Like, it's not I hope that's the case. He's like, that is the case. That's why they're paying you. Like, it is valuable.
Alex Judd:And, like, that was just such a a click moment for me where it was like, oh, like, factually. Like, it's not it's not an opinion whether or not it's valuable. It's factually, said, I want to continue paying you for what you're doing for me and our business right now. And and he was not really trying to boost my self esteem at all in that moment. All he was doing was saying, like, look at the facts.
Ben Loy:Just reality.
Alex Judd:Exactly. Exactly. So the second one, and I'll go through the second two pretty quick. Freedom, I remember in the first year of business, it's like I felt this need to work till 4PM. And, like, if I, like, on paper, I could absolutely, you know, wrap up what I needed to for the day and go for a two hour run if I wanted to at 2PM.
Alex Judd:Right? But, man, I if I did that, I would not feel okay. And and it was like, I don't I I don't deserve this free. Like, I I can't be go. I can't be allowed to do this right now.
Alex Judd:And so freedom. And then number three is teaching. For the first couple of live events that we hosted I've been speaking and teaching for a long time. Right? Like, oh gosh.
Alex Judd:Fifteen years maybe, maybe longer than that. But for the first live event that we hosted ourselves, I remember, like, I was, like, cramming content in, and I was, like, changing it up till the last minute because I was like, people are paying to come see me teach, and I don't feel like what I do is not good enough for people to come pay to see. And, like, I have to I have to change who I am, and I have to change my typical process for doing this to meet those demands. And I've never really thought about that as impostor syndrome until we were kinda working on this content, but I think those are all examples of it.
Ben Loy:Yeah. No. Definitely. Okay.
Alex Judd:So now let's go into where have you seen it play out for others, the impostor syndrome, maybe particularly in leadership roles?
Ben Loy:I think I could pull up specific examples or, I guess, point to themes, like and I I think when I was thinking about the different examples that I've seen in just in work and working for people and I think it can manifest in different ways. But I would I would argue that the root of impostor syndrome is actually pride.
Alex Judd:And
Ben Loy:often, like, how that looks is there's either, like, an easily marked level of, like, low self esteem or, like, false humility involved, or on the flip side of that, there is a there is, like, an exceptional amount of peacocking and, like, look at me visibility, like, let me inflate this image of who I am so that other people respect me. Mhmm. But I would say that, like, from because you never can really know unless they verbalize that that, like, those are the thoughts that someone is having. Right? You can never you can only project or maybe have some intuition that someone is going through something like this.
Ben Loy:Mhmm. But I would say that those things look like, in my opinion and from my own life, evidence of impostor syndrome or, like, not feeling like you're enough.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. Yeah, man. I'm so excited to get into the exploration in this conversation too because, I think there's healthy and unhealthy ways to respond to it for sure. From, like, a practical standpoint, by far, the most common way that I see it play out for leaders is, like, they gain the role of CEO, but they can't step into that role. Right?
Alex Judd:There's a gentleman that I I just I I love and respect the guy so much. He owns an HVAC company, and we have done work with him now for, I think, two years. And he was telling me recently at one of our in person events. He told me he said, Alex, like, the first event that I came to with y'all was so hard because I literally could not see myself not in the truck fee fixing people's HVAC system. Like, he's like and you were he's like, you didn't mention HVAC the entire event.
Alex Judd:And he's like, that's that's the only way I see myself as it relates to the company. He's like, and I know I'm a business owner, and I know technically my business card says CEO. But he said, like, I just don't I I did not see myself that way, and so I never acted that way. And he said that first event was the first time ever he said, I certainly wasn't convinced, but he said, like, it it caused me to ask the question, could I be that? And then he just told me how honestly, he actually he he, he, like, gave us a lot of credit that he shouldn't have given us because it was him in so many ways.
Alex Judd:He he thanked us for being so patient with him, and it's like, dude, the patience is really on you just to keep chipping away. And he just talked about how uncomfortable it was for him to do so many new things over the course of really a year and a half to start playing the role of CEO. But he said, like, Alex, now I get to see you here two years later. He's like, I'm doing it. And he's like, I'm doing so many of the things two years ago that were literally foreign to me that he said before that event, I I would have said I could have never done this.
Alex Judd:And it it was his his way of viewing himself had shifted. And and in some ways, he viewed himself now with much much more of a growth mindset than a fixed mindset. I think, impostor syndrome is often rooted in a fixed mindset where it's like, this is who I am. This is who I will always be. And any me doing anything different represents me stepping outside the identity of who I actually am.
Alex Judd:Yep. When in reality, we're all created for growth and to move into new things. But again, the thing that we're gonna step into is how do you do that in a way that's healthy versus unhealthy?
Ben Loy:Yeah. Man, I think that example itself, like you talked about his view of himself and, I mean, earlier I mentioned, like, this being an integrity deficiency. Right? Like, the way the facts of your life and what is being externally projected doesn't align with how you feel about yourself. And so there's a disconnect there.
Ben Loy:And I think I think you're right. Think the answer is, like, reflecting on who are we created to be? Who like, who did God create us to be? And through that, like, who is God and how does that affect the way in which we interact with ourselves and the world around us?
Alex Judd:That's right. You know, it's so funny. The the unique seat that we get on the bus, of being the facilitator of a community of leaders. Right? One of the things that we've done since we started the company was we now do them three times a week, these office hours calls that are community coaching calls for leaders.
Alex Judd:And what's interesting is, like, especially, at the beginning of the company, like, was on all of those calls with all of those leaders, and then I was also talking to a lot of them individually. And what was so cool is so many of them individually would articulate to me like, man, those calls are so valuable. I'm so grateful for those calls. And then, like, every single one of them individually would say the same thing to me. They would all say, like, everyone on those calls is just so smart, and I just don't feel qualified to be on the go.
Alex Judd:And it's like and and they would mention specific people who are so smart. I'd be like, they said the exact same thing about you to me. Like, literally, this is a call of 10 people, and no one out of the 10 people feels qualified to be on this call. We're just like, so who's qualified to be on this call? And it, again, just highlights for me, it opened my eyes to how irrational this can be.
Alex Judd:And irrationality is an unwise leadership practice. And so that kinda gets us into the final kinda fundamental base level question. Why is this topic so critical for anyone with leadership responsibility from your perspective?
Ben Loy:A verse came to mind when I was thinking about this topic, and just the thought of integrity and wholeness and alignment in your thinking and the world around you. And it was James one five through eight. It says, now if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God who gives to who gives to all generously and ungrudgingly, and it will be given to him. But let him ask in faith without doubting, for the doubter is like the surging sea, driven and tossed by the wind. That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord, being double minded and unstable in his ways.
Ben Loy:And I think the big thing as to why it's important for leaders is that, like, being double minded or not not being aligned in who you are, where you're going, and just the purpose for your life is gonna create a ton of instability in how you navigate your personal life and also, like, it's gonna have a insurmountable effect on the way that you lead and the impact that you have on other people. Mhmm.
Alex Judd:I think that's so well said. And, I mean, I think it's literally later in that chapter that he says, like, but be doers of the word and not hearers only, which I also think is, like, an impostor syndrome. Like, I think you will, and I would even say you should experience impostor syndrome if there's things that you hold up as ideals and standards that you're not doing. Right? And so in some ways, it's like, to engage in this with a healthy way, we we better also monitor ourselves, which just like, am I living in alignment with with with the standards that I supposedly hold?
Alex Judd:For whether it's leadership or my faith or things like that. Maybe from a different vein, I I think it's really critical for leaders because what do we always say leadership is? Leadership is helping people go from here to there. And that means as a leader, part of your responsibility is to lead others in the taking of new territory. You are you you are charged with the opportunity, but also the responsibility of stepping into things that are new, that are different, that are creative, that are chaotic, that are unknown, and kind of, you know, bushwhacking and figuring out the path where one does not currently exist.
Alex Judd:And I have never once in my life individually or in my leadership gone further than I've ever gone and and ever felt fully confident that this is where I was supposed to be. Yeah. I've never felt that way. Right? Yep.
Alex Judd:I I don't know if you've ever seen, there's that meme of the Lord of the Rings. There's a there's a have you seen the Lord of the Rings?
Ben Loy:Yes.
Alex Judd:Okay. I was like, oh, we needed to pause right now and go watch that movie, for your spiritual growth. Yeah. So so in the fellowship at the ring, like, Sam pauses at one moment, and Frodo, like, looks back, and he's like, like, why have you stopped? What's going on?
Alex Judd:And he goes, if I take one more step, it will be the furthest that I've ever been. And, there's there's memes that basically suggest that every step he takes from that moment, he says the same thing. He might just feel like because it's like, that's never not true once you go past the furthest you've ever been. Yeah. And that's what leadership feels like.
Alex Judd:Right? And so I think it's reasonable to say if you are leading, you're taking new territory. And if you're taking new territory, then you should anticipate there will be times where you question whether or not you are supposed to be where you are, and the way you respond to that is critically important.
Ben Loy:What is the difference between healthy growth and pushing yourself beyond your comfort zone and proving yourself or or operating from a position of impostor syndrome where you're you're just trying to catch up to or, perform in a way.
Alex Judd:So now it feels like we're getting into the exploration of this topic. Yeah. As I was kind of thinking about it, I what I feel like is, like, what what responses to the feeling of, like, I'm not supposed to be there. I'm not qualified for this. In some ways, like, the fact that I have the role of CEO isn't correct even though I'm playing that role.
Alex Judd:Right? Like, what are the responses to those that are healthy? Well, I I think that, the response to that that is healthy is always gonna be grounded and anchored in truth, and and, that could be facts. Like, what Dave did for me is he literally said, like, there are facts that you are not paying attention to. And, like, you know, the facts will help tell the story, or that can be grounded and anchored in spiritual truth, I think.
Alex Judd:And and I I spent some time writing down some spiritual truths, but before we get to those, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this too. But in some ways, impostor syndrome is a feeling, and the minute you follow your feelings, well, that's probably unhealthy. We should say, how does this feeling align with the facts? I think is the the primary thing that we have to do to discriminate between healthy and unhealthy. Mhmm.
Ben Loy:I would just agree.
Alex Judd:Love it when people say echo chamber here.
Ben Loy:But I think, yeah, I think, I think the, the existence of imposter syndrome is evidence that your feelings do not align with, what God says about you, what God says about Himself and the world, and then also just the straight up facts of your life.
Alex Judd:And so unhealthy as it relates to impostor syndrome. So if I'm feeling like, hey, I can't be doing this. I'm not enough to be doing this. Like, who am I to be to be to experience this success or to have this freedom or things like that? What is unhealthy response to those feelings?
Alex Judd:I think it's it's untruth is what I wrote down. And the reason why I wrote untruth is because a lot of times to me, it feels a lot more subversive than just lies. Right? A lot I the language that I feel is, like, lies are just bold on their face, not true. Untruth is this, like, it might have a glimmer of truth to it, but there's something that's off.
Alex Judd:There's something that's not correct. And so it could be three things, I think. Number one is not acknowledging facts and, perpetuating feelings of fraudulence. So you're saying like, man, I can't be the CEO of this company. Well, you are.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. And you have been for the past two years, and the company has even grown for the past two years. So who's to say you can't be? Like, that's actually not factually true. And the more you tell yourself that, the more you're perpetuating that.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. Right? Or, like, I can't go for a run at 2PM, right, and take off work. Right? It's like, well, you can.
Alex Judd:That's literally not true that you can't. And not only can you, you have. And when you have, the business hasn't fallen apart. So, again, it's when we start to not acknowledge or even deny factual evidence and and retell ourselves the story. And and, you know, I am so far from a neuroscientist.
Alex Judd:It's not even funny. But what I know to be true is neuroplasticity neuroplasticity is a thing. Yeah. And the more we repeat thoughts and and narratives to ourself, the easier it is for us to go to that neural pathway. And that's where we start to write new facts for ourselves that are literally not true.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Well, I mean, cognitive behavioral therapy, which is one of the most effective if not, I mean, it might be the most effective talk therapy, like most studied, most proven, and a step in cognitive behavioral therapy is, thinking errors. Being able to identify thinking errors in your thinking, where they come from, and then how that affects your, like, view of yourself consistently. And so obviously the end result of CBT or the goal is to to correct those thinking errors in a way that affects your your view of yourself. Yeah.
Ben Loy:So
Alex Judd:I mean, that that is, not dissimilar from the reason why one of our five coaching qualities that we train all of our coaches on is curiosity. And one of the questions that I find myself asking a lot is, is that true? Like, is just literally repeating back to someone, what they say and asking them, is that true? Because what I often see, especially with leader types, type a, driven, ambitious, they say, I never, I can't, I won't, I'm not able to. And is is, I mean, such a gift to be able to reflect that back to them and be like, you said you've never.
Alex Judd:You said you've never been able to effectively manage someone over time. Is that true? And then they'll, like, start back at like, well, that's not fully true. And you start to see their entire disposition change because it's like, if that is true, man, this is gonna suck for you. But the minute you realize like, oh, that that generalization that I've been telling myself is not at all true, it's wild how your entire outlook changes.
Alex Judd:Yeah. And so the first one that I first example of untruth that I gave was not acknowledging facts and therefore perpetuating feelings of fraudulence. Number two is operating from a posture of self sufficiency and total adequacy. So this is this is the the other end of the spectrum where you say, man, I feel like a fraud. And so what you do is you say, I feel like I'm not enough.
Alex Judd:That's not true.
Ben Loy:I am
Alex Judd:enough. I just need to stand in front of the mirror for ten minutes every single morning and tell myself, I'm a $5,000,000 CEO of a business. I am amazing. The world just hasn't recognized it yet. Just everyone just needs to see it.
Alex Judd:And it I mean, there are I mean, I I feel like I'm saying this in a joking way. This is, like, very seriously what people are recommending people do right
Ben Loy:big, healthy dose of toxic positivity.
Alex Judd:Yeah. And self talk. Right? And and, so positive psychology was, I believe it was really, really popularized in the seventies and eighties, and it was a whole vein of psychology. Right?
Alex Judd:Obviously, I believe in the power of positive thinking, but it can get taken too far. Mhmm. And it did get taken too far. And one of the lies associated with the positive psychology movement was it literally advised therapists to allow people to live with the lie and let the lie be their umbrella. Yeah.
Alex Judd:Right? So it's like, literally hold the lie over you, and that will shelter you from life's storms. And it's like, well, eventually, a hurricane will come, and your umbrella is not gonna work very well in a hurricane. The truth always catches up to you. And so the idea that we need to actively deny these feelings when some of them could be true, like some of them could be like, wow, I am not equipped to do this.
Alex Judd:Like, in some ways, I told our team recently, like, we are on track to being a $2,000,000 company. Praise god. That's amazing. Right? I I have never run a $2,000,000 company before.
Alex Judd:Right? I have not. And somehow, I look up, and it's like, that's what I'm charged with right now. You better believe there's feelings of inadequacy, and some of those need to be rooted out because they're not factual. Some of those are probably true.
Alex Judd:Like, I probably need to get better in some things as a leader, as a as a business mind, as a a person that's able to manage family and business at the same time. Right? There's probably some areas where I I am inadequate to the task, but the good news is is I'm not a fixed person. I can grow. Yeah.
Alex Judd:But to deny those things is actually gonna be the thing that keeps me in a fixed spot, think.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Well, because if if impostor syndrome is being being disconnected your feelings are disconnected from reality, like, the flip side of that, having having a ton of of positivity that isn't necessarily still aligned with reality, like, this the issue still exists there. It hasn't been solved.
Alex Judd:That's right. Yes. Exactly. And and so then the final one that I would say is you're you're not acknowledging spiritual truths that enable you to do new things by faith. So you could say, you're not acknowledging the facts, or you could say you are completely, denying facts that suggest that there is some inadequacy.
Alex Judd:Or you're saying, hey. I'm inadequate, and you do acknowledge that. I'm inadequate to the task at hand, but you're not looking at the spiritual truths that challenge us to walk by faith and suggest that faith is, you know, the assurance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. And and our faith tells us, like, there are spiritual truths that say, you can do things that you have not done before. Mhmm.
Alex Judd:And in some ways, that is a core theme of the entire bible is people stepping into new territory by faith before they knew what the result was going to be and trusting that the result wasn't all on them. Yeah. But when we deny those spiritual realities, and I I have a list of them that I'd like for us to walk through, but when we deny those spiritual realities, we are perpetuating unhealthy untruth in our lives.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I mean, you want evidence in the Bible, just pick up Hebrews 11.
Alex Judd:Just read Yeah. Just The hall of faith is what you're referring to.
Ben Loy:I mean, just, like, all of those people, when you go back and you read the stories, had some pretty pretty big shortcomings. And regardless, like, God called them into into mission, into purpose, into fulfillment.
Alex Judd:And, I mean, let's think about, like, a primary one, Moses. Mhmm. Right? God speaks to Moses through the burning bush, and, one of Moses' first responses is basically like, you've got the wrong guy. Yeah.
Alex Judd:Like, you clearly don't know me. I'm not eloquent in words. I have a checkered past to say the least. Like, I don't think I'm your guy. And God's response to that is anger, which is interesting because I think it hits on what you said is it's like Moses is literally making it about himself, and God is saying, like, you think this is about you?
Alex Judd:Like, I'm not making like, I'm telling you I'm going to do this, and I've chosen to use you. And I'm not, quite frankly, not asking you about your opinion of your qualifications in some ways.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I mean, it is. It's a subversive form of pride.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Right? Yeah. Which and you could look at it and be like, oh, I'm not qualified to do that. I can't be used by God in that way.
Alex Judd:We could we could literally look at that and slap the tag of humility on that. But when you actually, I mean, when you actually think about it, it's like he is way, way, way giving him himself, disproportional influence over outcomes and not at all trusting in God's actual sovereignty over outcomes. So the spiritual truths that I think we have to be anchored in to handle this in a healthy way, we just talked about one. God does not call the qualified. He qualifies the called.
Alex Judd:Right? The the I mean, outside of Jesus, I can't think of a single person that, like, in the Bible that it's like, oh, man. They had their act together, and that's why god picked them. Like, nope. Not at all.
Alex Judd:God gives and god takes away. Right? So, again, I think this is a, diversion, or this is where I think spiritual truth can deviate from pop culture's conception of impostor syndrome is I think pop culture's interpretation of impostor syndrome and how to respond to it is, like, you call your successes luck. Those aren't luck. You created those.
Alex Judd:That was all you. And I think spiritual truth suggests that it's like, it it was not luck, but it also was not all you. You you were the vessel that God chose to participate in the process, but God did the thing. God gives the blessing, and he takes it away. Few more.
Alex Judd:God's power and strength are magnified in our weakness is a spiritual truth that we should remember that. So that's why it's so crucial that we don't deny our weakness. And then another one that I think is worth hitting on is that God accomplishes his ends in and through people. And that is just true. Right?
Alex Judd:Like, if you read the Bible, it's like it's very rarely, if ever, God choosing to do things in the world divorced from any human involvement at all. It's always in and through people. And so he's going to choose to use someone, and it's like, if he's gonna use someone, why couldn't that person be you in certain situations? Mhmm. And then finally, true confidence is not rooted in human ability or achievement, but in God's sovereignty, which I think we could talk more about that because I think we're really discussing confidence here and where true confidence comes from.
Alex Judd:But, yeah, are there any other spiritual truths that you think people need to be grounded in, or any thoughts that you have on those ones that I just shared?
Ben Loy:I think you covered a lot of them. I one of the ones that stuck out to me, the last one and then also, related to people, like, as pop culture's posture being like, oh, you created this, like, you caused this, this was the work that that you put in. The reality that we can till the soil, but, like, God provides the rain. Right? And and God is the one who's actually going to He he created a world in which when we work, growth can happen.
Ben Loy:But, like, there's a huge divide between what the world says the solution to impostor syndrome would be there and what scripture says.
Alex Judd:Yeah. I actually heard a quote. Gosh, it was this past week that was from an older missionary, and the book, it was John Piper's desiring god, was talking about how lots of times people deeply mischaracterize this quote. And the quote is expect great things from God, attempt great things for God. And the idea is how would you live if you actually believed that the god of the entire universe who's sovereignly in control of everything loved you, cared for you, knew what was best for you, and was actively working to see it come to pass?
Alex Judd:Like, how would you live if you knew that was true? You should expect God to do great things because that is in the character of who he is. And then attempt great things for God. A lot of what people distort that into is I'm gonna go independently do great things for God. What this was actually saying is put yourself in positions and situations proactively where you can't do anything but lean on him, where you know just how much you need him because on your own power, this is absolutely not possible.
Alex Judd:And I thought that was such a good leadership statement of like, man, we we live in such a time where we're, you know, challenged to grow, move forward, take risk. But in some ways, it's like we're challenged to do that on our own power. And what this is saying is, like, that's a failing, worthless strategy is do things that you can't do on your own power to such a degree that you have to lean and depend on God.
Ben Loy:I mean, that really just goes back on the idea of pride. Right? Like, having a having a right view of who God is and and how he works and how he created the world to be is gonna, like, correct everything else if if you do, if you have a good if you have a right view of who God is.
Alex Judd:Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And I think that, one of the other stories that I think of, because we're now talking about confidence, I I think one of the best displays of confidence in the Old Testament is David stepping up to take on Goliath. And David walked forward.
Alex Judd:In in some ways, if anyone, like, could have experienced some serious impostor syndrome, like, I shouldn't be here. How, like, how can I be doing this? How am I the person that's been given this responsibility? Like, I would think that he was the guy, but he what he experiences is actually the opposite of that. Like, he runs to the line, right, towards Goliath and, like, literally yells him down.
Alex Judd:So in some ways, we could look at this and be like, well, is that literally the toxic positivity that we're advising people against? But if we actually read the passage, we actually did a whole podcast on, like, David versus Goliath as a display of healthy confidence. I think what we actually see is his confidence is not in himself. Like, the reason why he's able to run to the line is because, like, he's like, you have not insulted me. You have not even insulted the Hebrew nation.
Alex Judd:You have insulted the God of heaven and earth, and he's gonna give me your head is what he says. And so it's like, he's literally saying, this isn't about me. You think it's me standing against you right now? That's not who you're fighting right now. And I get why you would be laughing if you're fighting me, but you're not fighting me.
Alex Judd:I'm just the vessel. And I think that's the the posture that we have to adopt if we want true, healthy, sustainable confidence is is your confidence in your abilities. If so, it's gonna fail every single time. If your confidence is in the god that you're serving, well, then I think you can literally run to the battle line. I get preachy on that on that answer
Ben Loy:a little bit. Run with
Alex Judd:it. Yeah. Yeah. Was there another question that you wanted to make sure we got on got into on this topic?
Ben Loy:I guess too, and and it's I guess it's shifting more into the practical side of things.
Alex Judd:Like,
Ben Loy:how we've alluded a lot from, I think, a higher level to, like, how do you solve for impostor syndrome? Like, what are I think there are practical things that you could start doing, certainly, but I also think there is a there is a mind shift that needs to happen before you even start taking those actions.
Alex Judd:Can you start with the mind shift? I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I mean, I think we've already alluded a lot to it and talked about it. I think, I think really taking the time to understand your place in in this world and in life, through the lens of of who is God and who has He said He is, and then what has He said about me and the world around us, and and actually, like, taking the time to sit in that and reflect in it and just study his word. Like, I think that one of the most some of the most profound things, I think, in my own life growing beyond impostor syndrome or in moments where I've I've felt like a fraud or, like, I had to prove myself or, like, I was going to be found out that I wasn't competent, the root of that was, like, returning to Jesus, returning to who he was, and understanding that, like, we are we are vessels. Like, God is the ultimate authority and in his sovereignty, like, I can take whatever actions I want, but, like, ultimately, I have arrived in this position, I have arrived with this influence, doing this job because God allowed that to happen.
Ben Loy:And so he wants me here for a reason, and that reason is both for my own personal development and sanctification and also for the purpose of furthering the gospel.
Alex Judd:Yeah. In that regard, it seems like there's a great deal of overlap, basically, the way you think about and understand identity. Mhmm. I think identity, we could look at it through the lens of three questions, like, who is God, who am I, and who are others, as very simple questions. And, like, starting with the first one, who is God?
Alex Judd:We shared this principle at an experience a while back, and it was just so it was so powerful for me to reflect on this. Your experience of God is always gonna be dependent on your concept of God. Right? And I have literally talked to people before that say, man, I I really struggle to have a conversation, like, with God in prayer just because, like, I I don't know that I can trust her, like, a God that is just, like, so wrathful and so angry and, like, and it makes me feel shame for doing things wrong. It's like, I don't know that I could trust that god either because I don't think that's god.
Alex Judd:Right? And, like, I don't know where you got your concept of god, but I can tell you it's not the bible. Right? And, like, there's a great book called gentle and lowly that really characterizes the the thread of who god is throughout the totality of scripture. And god is love.
Alex Judd:Right? And what is love? Saint Saint Thomas Aquinas defined love as to will the good of the other. So God is not just actively willing the good of the other. It's who he is.
Alex Judd:It is embedded in his being, and that's what we've gotta remember. And the minute we more properly understand who God is, well, then we can go to the second question, which is who am I? And there was a a while back where I I can't even remember how I got into this, but it's like, I I think that it was I was probably struggling with a little bit of attaching too much of my identity to achievements or to performance or things like that. And especially starting a small business, like, performance is a roller coaster, and it's like, yeah, if you're starting a small business, it's a lot less stable than an existing business. And if one of the things that will quickly reveal is if you're attaching your identity to your performance because then your identity is gonna look a lot like your line graphs for business, so that's rough.
Alex Judd:Right? And so I think I had spent some time being like, I had diagnosed the problem, said this isn't okay, and literally spent some time saying in prayer, like, who am I, like, according to the bible? And, like, let's just get, like, super simple. And I vividly remember, like, praying about it and, like, just coming to three conclusions that were very helpful because I think they did what you said, which is, like, remind you of who you are in light of who God is. It's like, who am I?
Alex Judd:I'm a son of God. Right? Who am I? I am a sinner. That is also biblically true.
Alex Judd:Right? So I'm a son of God. I'm a sinner. And then also, who am I? I am someone he deemed worth saving.
Alex Judd:And then I was like, I don't know that I can think of a third point, which is interesting. Like, if you're actually getting to the core of who you are, I think a lot of the things that we try to generate is that the exact peacocking like you're talking about. Like, we generate all this accoutrement around us that looks really good, and we try to convince people this is who I am. And in reality, if you wanna know who I am, I'm a son of God. I'm a sinner, and I was someone he deemed worth saving.
Alex Judd:But you wanna talk about something that dramatically affects your leadership is if you actually internalize those three identity statements. It has ramifications for everything you do. You know?
Ben Loy:I mean, we go to redemption in in our service every week. Right? We do we do and there's a time for worship. There's time for confession. There's a time for hearing from the word, and then there's a time to take communion.
Ben Loy:And, like, all of those things when when you when you look at the core of what they are, I kind of identify those it's those three categories.
Alex Judd:Right? Like,
Ben Loy:confession, like, I am I am a sinner in need of saving, like, and then hearing from the word, like, who who does God say He is and and where do we go for that? Like, we we go to the Bible. Mhmm. And then from that, we get to worship and partake in communion, which is an expression of of salvation and being saved. Right?
Ben Loy:And so just viewing it through that lens, like, it makes sense that that would be an important part of a service or a liturgy because that is that is how we are realigning ourselves on a consistent basis with who who God says we are.
Alex Judd:Yeah. And we which is so cool because I I think a lot of the common talk around impostor syndrome right now is actually just shallow feeling management. Mhmm. Like, it's like, oh, that's how you feel. Let's get you to feel a different different way.
Alex Judd:But it's like, man, my my feelings are so erratic and unpredictable. It's not even funny. And so I think why what we're talking about here is a lot more sustainable is because it it's it's saying we're actually just gonna take feelings out of the driver's seat in totality. Like, we're not gonna allow feelings to be the thing that's driving the way you act, think, and live. We're we're gonna put truth in the driver's seat.
Alex Judd:And so if we think about each of those things like son of god, like, man, what does that imply? Or or daughter of god for that matter. That means, like, you are someone that has absurd creative potential. Right? Like, god is the god of creation, and it's like he made you in his own image, And, like, you have the ability to uncover the hidden swaths of potential in all of creation all around you.
Alex Judd:But, also, what do you do for your son or daughter? You provide for them. So you are because you're a son or a daughter, like, you are provided for. That's part of your identity. You're protected.
Alex Judd:You're guided. You're looked after. Right? Like, that's part of who you are. And I I think it's one of the reasons why as I was kind of working on this, I was so excited about this particular conversation for leaders is because it's like, man, leaders feel this burden of providing for, protecting, looking after so many people.
Alex Judd:Like, you feel the burden of that. And I I think that is being a good shepherd. Right? But, man, it sucks if that's your job description, and you don't feel like anyone is shepherding you. Like, that is awful.
Alex Judd:And what's so cool about this is if you have rooted your identity in being a son or daughter of God, you're like, this is what I get to do for others because I know. I don't think. I don't feel. I know this is what is done for me. And and then we can go to, like, sinner.
Alex Judd:It's like, well, now you have a way to contextualize failure, brokenness, mistakes, and the fact that you're fallen is it's not this thing that you have to hide. It's not this thing that that it makes you unable to do things for God or for others. It's just something that's part of the sinful nature of who you are. And then that brings us to the third one. You are worth saving.
Alex Judd:Right? Like, you are someone that God said, I I love that kiddo, and I'm I am going to sacrifice more than anything so that they would know that they are loved and they could live in right standing with me. And that's how we get to live, and that recontextualizes that identity statement of sinner as well. And, oh my god. Like, the and I mean that literally.
Alex Judd:Oh my god. Like, that changes the way you lead when you lead from that spot. But so let's talk practically then. If that's the identity we want to lead from, how do we make sure that's where we're coming from from your like, what does that look like practically?
Ben Loy:I think so like like you said, surrounding yourself with people who are are going are in alignment with that, who are going to who to point you that direction, and letting them in enough that they can point you that direction when it's needed. Mhmm. I think often, community is more shallow than we really want or or need it to be because we're not willing to let people in so they can actually shed light on how we're oriented, how we're living our lives, and and the decisions we're making. So, I think community is huge. I think I I said this earlier, I mean, I'm genuinely just sitting in the word, like Yeah.
Ben Loy:Not and not to, like, read, not to free the bible in a year or or cover as much as the word as possible, but just, like, like, read the word and if something latches onto you, stop. Like, sit sit in it and and listen and and, like, mull over the realities of what God's word says. Because I think that I mean, the the word transforms, like, through the holy spirit, like, the word will transform you. Mhmm. Meditating on it day and night.
Ben Loy:Right? Third, there are, like, and this is I think this is an, an effect of common grace, like, through through psychology and through the world that we live in, like, are resources and there are practices that you can do that when done consistently help change and reorient yourself to both the way that you see God and the way that you see yourself. And practically, I think one of the ones that was most impactful for me was honestly super simple. And I was seeing a therapist at the time and she was like, I just want you to to keep a gratitude journal. Like, every night before you go to bed, write five things down that you're you're grateful for, big or small.
Ben Loy:Mhmm. And, I mean, I did it for months and I still do it. Like, you talk about rewiring your brain, like, I'll do it in the car when I'm driving. Like, I'll just start thinking of things I'm grateful for and gratefulness, when I'm expressing that gratefulness to God specifically, is an incredible antidote to to pride, which is like, if pride says, it's all on me, I have accomplished this, it also says like, any failure, any doubt, any any feelings of inadequacy are also a 100% result of me. And so just the simple practice of practicing gratitude allows you to express that like, hey, I have these things because God allows me to have them and because He has designed me in this specific way that that has given me these gifts or these connections or I live in this specific area that I get to experience these blessings and these realities of the creation that he of the world that he created.
Ben Loy:And, it just it does something to you when you when you do that on a consistent basis.
Alex Judd:Yeah. I I totally agree with you. I I think the one that I would double click on there is, the community piece is because so much of impostor syndrome can be that pattern of feeling like, man, if they only knew. Mhmm. If they only knew.
Alex Judd:And what's the single best way to reinforce that line of thinking is just don't let anyone know. And then you're writing yourself a lie. Like, if they only knew what was true about me, I couldn't lead this company. I couldn't have this family. I couldn't be this successful.
Alex Judd:If they only knew and then you keep it a secret, so there's no way for you to ever disprove. Like, you you're not inviting other people in to disprove that lie that you are telling yourself or that untruth that you're telling yourself. And, you know, discussion around sin and practicing confession in your most intimate relationships, which I'm I'm thinking, like, your one to five most intimate relationships is which I what I'll be teaching at this upcoming experience. Like, is there any undealt with hidden sin that you haven't received or extended grace for. Mhmm.
Alex Judd:And I think if the answer to that is yes, not only will you be experiencing impostor syndrome, it might actually be a flag that it's like, have some work to do in living in integrity, go to go back to your original definition. But what's so powerful and cool is, like I mean, Aspen and I literally have conversations that start with it feels so formal, but it's like, I have something that I want to confess to you. And it's like, oh, you know, like, that sounds like such a big word. Now it's just very normalized to us. Right?
Alex Judd:But it's like we we share that. And, you know, when you have a relationship where the person looks at you and that's like, oh, and their reaction isn't that I have four eyes, or isn't that like, well, you need to shut down Path for Growth immediately. Right? But rather that, like, their reaction is like, oh, man. I'm sorry that you're struggling with that.
Alex Judd:And, like, know that I'm gonna pray for you. Know that this doesn't change the fact that I love you and I forgive you. And and then, you know, we make a practice practice of asking, like, how can I help? Mhmm. How can I help in that?
Alex Judd:What does that look like? And, oh my gosh. Then if you got those people that help you, recontextualize the things in your life that you are most likely to tell yourself lies about, you you just I mean, you can see why Paul was so bold and so brash because he was living wide, like, wide open. Right? He's like, there's nothing about what I have done that y'all don't know about, and therefore, like, I'm gonna move forward because I've been saved by grace, and now I get to go extend that grace to other people.
Alex Judd:And and so it's why genuine, authentic, transparent, vulnerable community is so it's so critically important for leaders in particular. Is there anything else you wanna make sure we talk about in this conversation?
Ben Loy:No. I mean, I think, we're out of time, so that's part of it. But I think that's a great note to end on.
Alex Judd:Cool. Thanks, Ben. Thank you. Well, there you have it. Thanks so much for joining us for this episode.
Alex Judd:If you want any of the information or resources that we mentioned, that's all in the show notes. Hey, before you go, could I ask you for one quick favor? Could you subscribe, rate, and review this podcast episode? Your feedback is what helps our team engage in a sequence of never ending improvement. We wanna amplify what's valuable to you and obviously reduce or even remove the things that aren't.
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Alex Judd:Remember, my strength is not for me. Your strength is not for you. Our strength is for service. Let's go. Let's go.
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