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Speech-Language Pathologists have played a major part in bringing gender-affirming voice training to communities worldwide. Jess speaks with Sherri Zelazny, a Vancouver-based SLP, who helps trans people change their voices through the Changing Keys program in BC. They discuss voice training, the role of SLPs, and vocal health.
Click here to watch a video of this episode.
Click here to watch a video of this episode.
Creators and Guests
What is The Words Don't Fit the Picture: Gender vs. Voice?
What happens when your voice no longer matches your gender identity? Join host Jess Lupini as she explores the strange and tangled relationship between gender and voice. Through interviews with linguists, trans people, voice training experts, doctors, surgeons, storytellers, and much more, The Words Don't Fit The Picture will take you on a journey through what we know — and what we've still yet to fully understand — about how our voices and gender identities affect one another.
Sherri Edit V01-1
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[00:00:05] Jess: ​Hey everybody. Jess here. I'm a science communicator, musician, comedian, and filmmaker living in Vancouver on the unceded territory of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Sleight Tooth Nations.
[00:00:16] I decided to make this show because I'm also a trans woman. When I came out, I knew transitioning would be hard, but I, I don't think I quite realized just how complicated the relationship between voice and gender really is. Part of how I process my own thoughts and feelings is by learning as much as I possibly can.
[00:00:34] So I decided to bring you along on the journey with me as I searched for answers to some big questions about how we speak and the way it's tangled up in our identities. If you like moving pictures along with your words, you can find the video version of this episode on YouTube. Let's jump in.
[00:00:51] Hey everybody. Welcome to the words Don't Fit the Picture. A show where we disentangle the strange relationship between gender and voice. I am your host, Jess Lupini, and I am very excited to be here today with Sherri Zelazny. Welcome, Sherri.
[00:01:19] Sherri: Thank you. Happy to be here.
[00:01:20] Jess: I'm so excited. Sherri is a speech language pathologist with the CRE Voice Clinic and one of the voice training instructors with the Changing Keys program, which we're going to talk a bunch about today, which I'm really excited about.
[00:01:32] Sherri: Great.
[00:01:33] Jess: So obviously you're thinking a lot about the instrument of the voice as you're walking around the world, uh, you know, going to the grocery store or talking to people on the phone. Are there like things that you notice that, that you're like, oh, I can't unhear this
[00:01:45] Sherri: to a fault.
[00:01:47] Jess: Like, what, what are, what are some of the common ones that you hear?
[00:01:49] Sherri: Um, you know, uh, I do listen to voices. I, I do imagine what people's vocal folds might look like.
[00:02:00] Uh, in my clinical practice, I, I can look at people's vocal folds, so I do that all the time, uh, almost every day. Um, uh, what was the question? What bothers me?
[00:02:12] Jess: Like things that you notice, like if you're talking to someone on the phone or,
[00:02:16] Sherri: I'm, I'm pretty in tune to glottal fry 'cause I don't particularly care for it.
[00:02:20] Uh, glottal fry is not a disorder. Um, it's choice. It can be a choice. It's. Because it's, it's not hard to get out of Fry, but, uh, I don't particularly care for Fry, so that tends to stand out to me.
[00:02:35] Jess: Right. And
[00:02:35] Sherri: that,
[00:02:35] Jess: that's just like, that's vocal,
[00:02:37] Sherri: right. Sitting, sitting and sitting down here. Yeah. There's no flexibility to the instrument there.
[00:02:42] You don't get any intonation or, uh, flow or you don't get those other things that, that create voice when you're in Fry. 'cause it's a very inflexible, uh, kind of lazy instrument. Um, so that usually stands out, uh, to me. Um, usually it's just observation.
[00:03:04] Jess: Yeah.
[00:03:04] Sherri: Oh, maybe that person should see their ENT or maybe, or that's a nice voice.
[00:03:09] Or, um, that person should take a breath more often. Or it's usually just observation.
[00:03:17] Jess: Yeah.
[00:03:17] Sherri: Um, that I. You know, listening to voices or, and sometimes honestly, I just tune out and because my family of course, knows what I do sometimes, uh, if I'm out with my family, they're like, oh my god, mom, did you hear that voice?
[00:03:31] I'm like, no, I didn't.
[00:03:35] So it's either I'm all in, you know, observing or I'm not paying attention at all.
[00:03:40] Jess: Right. Um, obviously there's no such thing as a good voice or a bad voice, but are there any voices that you like a lot personally that you just like find really interesting?
[00:03:48] Sherri: Oh my gosh, that is a really good question. Um, voices that I like, I like, um, clear voices, um, smooth, you know, kind of melodic.
[00:04:04] I think you can have that. Uh, anybody can produce a smooth, melodic, clear voice. Um, yeah, voices that are easy to listen to. Um, but having said that. I also think that what you're saying makes a big difference.
[00:04:24] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:24] Sherri: And as it's easy to get distracted by voice when you're listening to listening to somebody.
[00:04:31] Jess: Right.
[00:04:32] Sherri: Um, I think it's super important to also hear what people are saying.
[00:04:36] Jess: I, I mean, I can already hear you sort of describing, it sounds like your, your approach to voice is thinking about it as like a primarily a means of communication or, or a tool. Does that sound
[00:04:45] Sherri: Absolutely.
[00:04:46] Jess: Yeah. Okay.
[00:04:46] Sherri: Yeah.
[00:04:47] Jess: Cool. So
[00:04:47] Sherri: an expression.
[00:04:48] Jess: An expression. Yeah. Okay. So maybe that's a good segue into um, I think one of the most important questions of the day, which is what is a speech language pathologist? It's a term I think a lot of people hear. What do you actually do?
[00:04:58] Sherri: Yeah. So speech language pathology is a huge field. Huge. Um, and a lot of people know speech language pathologists or speech therapists by, um, public schools and taking care of kids and helping with articulation and language and, um, maybe supporting, uh, somebody who's autistic.
[00:05:19] Um, so that's one realm of speech pathology. And then you've got, um, uh, the neurological approach where people work with people who've had strokes or head injury or, um, some kind of acquired neurological disease like Parkinson's or a LS where the goal is always communication, whether it be a zero to 3-year-old or a public school, uh, student, or somebody who's had an injury or somebody who's having, um, problems with their voice or somebody who wants to work on their voice.
[00:05:54] Uh, it's all about getting people to communicate. Um. Oral verbal communication is not the only way to communicate. Of course. And so when we talk about people with voice disorders mm-hmm. The goal is always communication. So there may be some augmentative communication, people who have lost their speech or, or, or have a injury to their voice that, um, you know, for example, like a LS or something like that.
[00:06:20] And people are using augmentative communication to speak, or, or students who, who don't have the, um, motor control for voice and speech, but have the brain, um, they can communicate quite well through augmentative communication. So the goal is. Always communication. Um, and speech language pathologists are responsible for, uh, working with all kinds of people with communication, um, disorders and people who want to improve communication or enhance communication or working on their voice.
[00:06:54] Jess: So you talked about a lot of the different things. Mm-hmm. Um, you do as a speech language pathologist. Um, what proportion of your practice involves working with trans people and trans voices?
[00:07:06] Sherri: I, my area of clinical expertise is voice and airway.
[00:07:10] Jess: Right.
[00:07:11] Sherri: Um, so I, in my clinical practice, I only work with people who come in with, um, voice concerns.
[00:07:20] Airway concerns or, um, they want to work on gender affirming voice training. You know, every week's a little bit different, but I can tell you that right now. Um, I would say about, uh, at least 50% of my, um, you know, if therapy training, uh, sessions are gender affirming, voice training.
[00:07:41] Jess: Wow.
[00:07:42] Sherri: It's amazing.
[00:07:43] Jess: That's really cool.
[00:07:43] Sherri: I think I get, I mean, and I'm, you know, it's, it's awesome. I think more people are seeking out voice training. It's available to more people. Um, and I get inquiries all the time for, for voice training, which is great.
[00:07:57] Jess: Gender affirming voice training feels like kind of a subspecialty of like a pretty specialized field already.
[00:08:03] Sherri: Yeah, for sure.
[00:08:03] Jess: What got you Sure. What was your path to this little niche?
[00:08:06] Sherri: Um, we would probably have to talk about my path to voice. Sure. First,
[00:08:10] Jess: yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:11] Sherri: I started my career as a general speech language pathologist, where I did a little bit of everything, inpatient, outpatient schools, nursing homes, home visits.
[00:08:21] Um, and I think that was a really important part of my career, um, to have that kind of general experience because it allowed me to know that I wanted to, uh, narrow my field, uh, to voice. Um, so when I had the opportunity to do that, to narrow my field to voice, that is indeed what I did. Um, I think voice is, is a very small part of our profession.
[00:08:50] Um, it takes a lot of, um, attention and work. Because it's not because the ma the majority of school work and clinical experience that people get is in the broader parts of the field. So you have to really kind of know what you want and seek out your experiences and education and, um, to specialize in voice.
[00:09:14] But voice. I mean, your whole body is the instrument. Physical and emotional and voice and emotion have a very close connection. And I think it's, um, it's so amazing to be part of somebody's, uh, life with their voice to get, help people get their voice back so that they can say what they wanna say and need to say and, and, um, be able to work and, and socialize and, um, just.
[00:09:50] You know, that you're working with the whole person, uh, body, mind, and soul really is amazing. Um, so that is what led me to the field of voice, my, my experience and my feelings about that and my desire to be part of that in people's lives. Um, and then when I, I, before I moved here, I was at the University of Wisconsin Madison.
[00:10:14] Um, and there was gender affirming voice training in the School of Communication Disorders. And they, so it was provided because it wasn't covered in, you know, in the states. Um, still I'm sure there's issues not covered by insurance. So the students were providing the care under supervision. Mm-hmm. Um, and we didn't really have anything to do with it.
[00:10:39] Um, in the clinic, in the, in the university clinic, we did not have anything to do with it because. People had to pay to come see us in the clinic. Right. You know, uh, so many levels of getting support. Right. Um, but then I moved here and, um, I met Sheila Davies, who we'll talk about regarding changing keys and, um, started my practice and, uh, Sheila just one day said, Hey, you know, um, you know, I am, you know, Sheila was very honest.
[00:11:12] I'm think, you know, the program's growing, I'm thinking about retiring, you know, in so many years, uh, would you like to come into this program? And, um, it wasn't just an awesome opportunity and I'm grateful for that. That happened maybe about 10 years ago or so, um, maybe less. Um, but super grateful to then take my, um, knowledge and experience with voice into the realm of voice training, which has been, um, incredible.
[00:11:42] Jess: Voice training in its current form. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's really been around for that long in the way that it's talked about now and especially professionally. Is that right?
[00:11:51] Sherri: Yeah, I mean, like I said, when I got to Madison in, uh, 2002, it people were doing some work in the, in the student clinic.
[00:12:04] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:06] Sherri: And I mean, I didn't look before I came here, but I don't know how far the research goes back in terms of when people started talking about voice training. But yeah, it, it is much, much more prevalent in the field of speech language pathology. Mm-hmm. And it is also much more prevalent with vocal coaches and, um, singing teachers and people are seeking out information on, uh, singing, training.
[00:12:34] And, um, so there's, there's many more professions involved, uh, in supporting. Voice training, which is also great. It's just being talked about so much more. And, um, there was just a, I just saw a notice for a gender affirming voice training conference for speech language pathologists in, uh, Denver. I mean, that's the conference.
[00:12:58] It used to be, you know, maybe there'd be a session in the conference, in the voice conference. Um, but this is an entire two day conference on gender affirming voice training for speech pathologists.
[00:13:11] Jess: So you like really watched it grow over the course of your career?
[00:13:13] Sherri: Oh, for sure. Oh yeah. My career, yes.
[00:13:15] Jess: Yeah,
[00:13:16] Sherri: for sure.
[00:13:16] Jess: Super cool. So let's talk a little bit about what that process of voice training actually looks like. So, uh, let's say you have a new patient, would you say, or
[00:13:26] Sherri: client.
[00:13:26] Jess: Client.
[00:13:27] Sherri: Yeah.
[00:13:27] Jess: Patient client.
[00:13:27] Sherri: So we do try to distinguish mm-hmm. In the clinical field between voice disorders
[00:13:34] Jess: Yes.
[00:13:34] Sherri: And voice training because somebody coming for voice training does not have a voice disorder.
[00:13:39] Um, so we do try to. Uh, differentiate that in the field for sure. Out of respect. Right? Yeah. It's not a voice disorder.
[00:13:47] Jess: Okay. So when somebody comes into the clinic Yep. Um, a client, not a patient, um, and they're looking for gender affirming voice training, what does that process look like? I,
[00:13:56] Sherri: um, yeah, so first we tend to talk about what people's, uh, what people's ideas are, what their goals are, uh, what they're looking for, um, how much they've done on their own.
[00:14:13] Some people come in with a really good idea of what they want. Some people have no idea, they just know they want something different. Um. We in the first session, uh, we'll take some recordings so we know where people are starting in terms of pitch. Um, pitch is an easy, um, thing to start with. It, it, it has objective data.
[00:14:35] We know what pitch people speak at. We know how, how it changes when you work on it. Um, but pitch over time gets some leeway, um, with the other tools that we use to either feminize or masculinize voice depending on what people want. So over time, uh, we would work on, um, pitch resonance and there's two ways to address resonance.
[00:15:00] Um, the, the intonation, the melody of speech, whether you want more melody in your speech or, or less, um, the flow of speech. Um, we know that, uh, in studies, uh, and how cis men and cis women talk, that, uh, women tend to have more flow. Um. Vowels are held for longer in women's speech. Uh, cismen, uh, tend to be a little bit more staccato and clipped.
[00:15:29] So, um, those are directions we can go, uh, pitch resonance, intonation, the flow, and uh, then there's ways that you can modify your own instrument, um, with some strategies and tools and techniques. So that, that's pretty much what we work on. We tend in, in my practice and in changing keys, we don't necessarily work on any body language.
[00:15:52] Uh, we don't work on word choice. Uh, we don't work on those things. Um, it's really all just about voice and and communication. Right.
[00:16:03] Jess: So talking about the idea of changing your instrument and thinking of the voice as an instrument.
[00:16:08] Sherri: Yeah,
[00:16:08] Jess: I think. You know, I play the fiddle. Mm-hmm. And, um, there's, you know, it has a, a range that I can, with the strings that are on it, I, I can play from this note to this note.
[00:16:19] Sherri: Right.
[00:16:19] Jess: And, um, if I want to make it sound like a viola or like a cello, I'm kind of out of luck. I've gotta go out and get a viola or a cello.
[00:16:26] Sherri: Exactly.
[00:16:26] Jess: So, uh, I think a lot of people tend to think of their voice as like kind of an immutable, fixed instrument. Mm-hmm. That just does what it does. Mm-hmm. Um, how true is that?
[00:16:36] How mutable is the voice? How much can we change it?
[00:16:38] Sherri: Well, we can change a lot of things. We can change pitch, right? You can go up and down. People have, uh, you can improve your range. Mm-hmm. High and low. If you think about singers, I mean, voice training is not about singing, but if you think about singers and how they use their instrument, um, there are, um, a huge variety of ways that people change their instrument to sing different styles and all that stuff.
[00:17:03] We can do the same thing with voice. You can make your instrument bigger or smaller, uh, inside your mouth. So you've got these resonant, um, cavities in your mouth. You've got something, you've got space in front of your tongue, you have space behind your tongue. Um, those spaces can change bigger or smaller.
[00:17:25] Smaller instruments make higher pitch sounds, bigger instruments make lower pitch sounds. Um, so even if you, um, imagine, you know that everything is open in the back, my pitch dropped, right? But if you, um, make things smaller in the front, then you're gonna amplify the higher frequencies of sounds. That's not necessarily pitch from the larynx, from how fast or slow the vocal folds are vibrating.
[00:17:53] That is the resonant frequency of the shape of the sound. So a, a fiddle is wooden. Right? And that doesn't change. So the resonating cavities of that are always the same. But this can change. You can change it and you can change how you, how fast or slow you vibrate your vocal folds and how they're stretched and how hard they touch each other.
[00:18:17] And there's all kinds of things you can do.
[00:18:19] Jess: Okay. So it's like a, it's a pretty changeable instrument then.
[00:18:21] Sherri: Yeah.
[00:18:22] Jess: That we have.
[00:18:22] Sherri: Sure.
[00:18:23] Jess: Very cool. Yeah. So I, I, I feel like you've already gotten into this a little bit. Mm-hmm. But I want to talk about what those different components are of voice that we do have access to, to change.
[00:18:31] So we've got pitch resonance, we've got a couple different resonances. Mm-hmm. Um, what were the other ones you were talking about?
[00:18:38] Sherri: Um, I think that was it. Uh, you can, yeah. I mean, you can change your pitch in many ways. You can make it higher, lower, um, that has to do with your. What you're doing with your actual vocal folds that are in your larynx, and then you can change the shape of the sound, right.
[00:18:55] Um, to amplify higher or lower frequencies.
[00:18:59] Jess: And so how are different combinations of your pitch and your resonances, how are those perceived as more masculine or more feminine by most people?
[00:19:07] Sherri: So, um, right, the, the, uh, I'm not gonna be able to go in this, into this technically or acoustically, but you, you've got the shape of the sound, right?
[00:19:18] That's how we know what people are saying. Because, because if we chopped off our heads, everybody would essentially sound the same, because then you don't have the resonators to shape the sound into speech. So everybody's got a different instrument. Um. The shape again, you know, we talk a little bit about recognizing somebody's voice.
[00:19:44] It's the shape of the sound and the, and the pitch that you're recognizing. Um, you know, if somebody calls you up and they're really sick and they're, they're all congested and their nose is stuffed up and you say, oh my gosh, I didn't know it was you. It doesn't even sound like you because the, because something has changed in the instrument.
[00:20:03] Um, so we've got the, we've got formants and which are the different frequencies of the shape, of the sound. And, and when that is researched it, they'll tell you that that's how you recognize eyes, a male or a female voice by the resonant frequency of the, the formants. So when we change the formants in, in terms of the, the shape of the cavity, where that sound is coming from, then you'll change the frequency of the shape of the sound.
[00:20:35] Jess: Why is it that cis men and cis women tend to have different voices in the first place? I know this feels like, it may be an obvious question, but I'd love to hear you
[00:20:42] Sherri: explain it. Yeah. I mean, it's all about the instrument, right? Yeah. So if you, if you line up in elementary school class, those kids are all gonna sound the same, essentially, right?
[00:20:53] Because it's like as before puberty essentially the instrument is the same. So, you know, everybody's got kind of around the same pitch, around a higher pitch. Little kids have higher pitched voices, and then as, um, people go through puberty, things change. So with people assigned male at birth. Those changes are gonna be because of the increase in testosterone.
[00:21:26] And when that happens, things grow bigger. The larynx is bigger, the cartilage is bigger. The, the vcal folds get more mass. And when the vcal folds have more mass, they're gonna vibrate more slowly, which is gonna be a lower pitch. So the pitch of cis men is, is 1 0 5 to one 60 hertz, which is 1 0 5 to one 60 cycles per second of vocal fold vibration.
[00:21:53] So as, um, as that puberty takes place and testosterone's on board, everything's bigger, heavier, lower, every, you know, chest cavities are bigger, nasal passages are bigger. Um, and so that is how that happens. And then it, there are changes with people assigned. Female at birth as well. Um, but not as dramatic.
[00:22:17] The, the hormones, the estrogen and progesterone, the, they don't make those big changes that testosterone does, but still, things change and, and pit will drop from before and after puberty as well. Um, and so it's all about the instrument, the shape of the instrument, the how big or small the instrument is.
[00:22:39] Jess: Um, can you speak a little bit to the differences between how you would approach gender affirming voice training for trans-masculine people, trans-feminine people, or non-binary
[00:22:47] Sherri: people? Mm-hmm. So, yeah, it has everything to do with what we just talked about, right?
[00:22:53] Jess: Yeah.
[00:22:53] Sherri: Um, pitch people's, um, thoughts about pitch and where they want their voice to be in the wide range of pitch that can be achieved.
[00:23:04] Um, a lot of the, um, non-binary and masculinization has to do with, um. Keeping things more monotone. Mm-hmm. Taking out some of the inflection, um, maybe punching a little bit more, uh, expression with loudness instead of intonation. So the difference between, um, down the road and down the road would be something.
[00:23:35] So to feminize we'd put more inflection in to, uh, go more towards non-binary or masculine. We would punch words a little bit more. Um, and then we again talk about making the instrument bigger. So dropping the base of the tongue, having kind of, uh, raising the palette to make more space here. And, uh, lowering the resonant frequencies of the shape of the sound.
[00:24:02] Um, a little bit more, uh, potential chest resonance rather than head resonance. Um, uh. You know, sometimes vocal fry will come in. That could be another, you know, complete another topic there. Um, but it's all about really what people want and what feels good and what feels natural. Um, in the voice training, there is a lot of, um, listening back and assessment by the individual.
[00:24:38] I, I will also in my first session, say to people, it is not my job to find your voice. Um, that's your job. Your job is to tell me if we're on the right track. My job is to get you there in a healthy way. So I will never say, um, oh yeah, you should be at this pitch, or You should do this, or you should take this out and put that in.
[00:25:01] Um, we just teach the tools. And then, um, that individual will say, I really like what this is doing to my voice. I'm like, okay, let's practice that a little bit more. Um, what combination of things sound the best to you? So it's a lot of, um, you know, record, listen back. How does that sound? Do you like it? Yes, I like it.
[00:25:21] Um, I don't like it. Okay. What don't you like? Let's get away from that. And so it's a lot of molding and shaping of pitch, everything we talked about, the how you shape the instrument, how you use your voice, um, presentation style, things like that.
[00:25:39] Jess: So obviously you think about voice a lot.
[00:25:41] Sherri: I do. Yeah.
[00:25:42] Jess: Um, for reasons we've discussed.
[00:25:44] A lot of trans people think about their voices quite a lot. Mm-hmm. Um, and clearly if you have a, a vocal condition, like trouble speaking in some way, you're probably thinking about your voice a lot too. Mm-hmm. How much do you think the average person just walking around is thinking about their voice?
[00:25:57] Sherri: I, people don't think about their voice until there's a problem with it.
[00:26:02] So generally if you know you, you wake up and you've got your voice, people tend not to think about it. Um, and that's fine. We, that's the goal is to get to a place where you don't have to think about your voice. Um, yeah, I mean, from birth we, we use our voice for emotion and expression and wants and needs and, uh, and, you know, making friends and, and performing and, and people generally don't think about their voice unless they're in one of those situations.
[00:26:36] And that's fine.
[00:26:38] Jess: So what do you see as the future of gender affirming voice training moving forward in the next 10, 20 years, maybe even further?
[00:26:47] Sherri: Yeah, I mean, I certainly see, obviously more access.
[00:26:51] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:52] Sherri: Um, and you know, we've had this conversation before in a perfect world. Maybe there wouldn't be any, because we wouldn't have to think about voice and, and people would identify with their voice no matter what.
[00:27:12] Right. The, the reason that we, one of the reasons we do gender affirming voice training back to the beginning of our conversation is that social recognition piece. Um, that, that, because generally people think in a binary way. If, if you don't sound like you look, then that person can be hurt or dysphoric or upset because of the way somebody else.
[00:27:40] 'cause of somebody else's impression. Mm-hmm. And that's not fair. Um, so maybe it would go away altogether. Um, maybe people would have more access. People who want it have access and can, can afford it or not afford it, but everybody would've access to work on their voice, uh, to do whatever they wanna do, um, with their voice.
[00:28:04] And then I had this idea, and I'm not a scientist by any stretch, but wouldn't it be cool if we had like a programmable chip and you could kind of program a voice for anybody who, who wanted, you know, you wanted a voice for work, and you wanted a voice for home, and you wanted a voice for outside, or you wanted a voice for the restaurant that's too loud and you could just kind of have some kind of chip that you programmed and, uh, you were successful in all your environments with your voice.
[00:28:34] Jess: I mean, that sounds amazing. Like I definitely, it does make me think like there's, have you tried any of the AI voice changing
[00:28:41] Sherri: software? I, I have not. Yeah. If not,
[00:28:43] Jess: it's, it's pretty incredible now. Like,
[00:28:44] Sherri: yeah,
[00:28:44] Jess: it's still pretty rough, especially for real time.
[00:28:47] Sherri: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:47] Jess: But especially some of the ones that are not real time that you can, you know, run out of voice sample mm-hmm.
[00:28:51] Afterwards mm-hmm. Um, are, are incredibly convincing and
[00:28:54] Sherri: yeah.
[00:28:55] Jess: It's, it's pretty cool to think about what might be possible way down the road. You know, it's not total science fiction at this point. Right.
[00:29:02] Sherri: Well, and some things that are, that are happening, you know, again, for the population of acquired neurological disease where people lose their voice because of muscular issues, people are banking their voice in advance.
[00:29:15] So let's say for example, somebody's got, uh, been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, um, a LS Parkinson's, potentially you can bank your voice. Before you lose your voice. We do everything we can to help people not lose their voice, of course. But when you go to the augmentative system, then it's your voice.
[00:29:38] So when you hit the button that says, I need help getting up, it's your voice. 'cause you banked your voice and now it's being used in the systems rather than the very robotic, um, systems that didn't sound like a human in the first place. So the AI voices, the people banking their voices, um, so that people still know them and their voice.
[00:30:01] Right.
[00:30:01] Jess: That's really incredible and yeah. Makes me think of like the voice that I think a lot of us associate with Stephen Hawking and Right. That that may actually be a very short lived period of time where we have the technology to generate a voice mm-hmm. But not the technology to generate your voice.
[00:30:16] Sherri: Right. But, but the technology is there now to bank your voice and have it in your augmentative system.
[00:30:22] Jess: That is so cool. Yeah. Yeah. What, wow, what an amazing thing.
[00:30:25] Sherri: Yeah.
[00:30:26] Jess: So, uh, I, I wanted to circle back to something you said earlier that, um, that sort of stuck in my brain, which is, uh, that it's not your place or any speech language pathologist's place to say what someone's voice should sound like, what their end goal should be.
[00:30:41] Yeah. Yeah. So that makes total sense to me. I totally understand It would be inappropriate to dictate like, oh, this is what your voice should sound like. Mm-hmm. Or this is, it's a very subjective thing, but at the same time, I, I would, ima I would imagine, and from most people I've spoken to, that the goal of voice training tends to be about other people's impression of you and how you're perceived.
[00:31:03] Mm-hmm. Um, and a lot of people when they're starting out have less of an attitude of like, oh, I want my voice to sound exactly like this, this, or this, and it tends to be a little bit more, I just want to get gendered correctly. Mm-hmm. Which is very much about what everyone else sees and what everyone else thinks is Yes.
[00:31:18] Is a feminine or a masculine sounding voice. So how do you walk that line when someone's goal is about. What other people see mm-hmm. And hear instead of how they want to sound.
[00:31:30] Sherri: Um, yeah. And I've had, um, people at both ends of that spectrum. Like, just tell me what to do to not get misgendered.
[00:31:38] Jess: Right.
[00:31:38] Sherri: Like, okay, then you wanna be in this pitch target and you wanna use this intonation and make sure we've got some good resonance going.
[00:31:46] But it still has to be something they're doing that they like that they can do. That feels okay. Right? It still needs to be that way. I have to say that situation is pretty rare, and I really do try to guide people to be doing something that they like.
[00:32:03] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:04] Sherri: Because then you'll do it, right. If you're just doing what I tell you to do it, I, I'm not sure that connection is gonna be there, um, for, for using your voice and knowing if you're doing what you wanna do when I'm not there.
[00:32:20] Jess: Yeah.
[00:32:20] Sherri: Right. So I really do try to get, um, to a place where people say, um, yeah, this feels, this feels better, this feels good. And get some feedback. You know, I will say, is there somebody who can give you some feedback? Again, the support and time and place, is there somebody who will give you some feedback?
[00:32:42] Um, let's talk about that. Who's that gonna be? And, and what are you going to, when are you gonna do that?
[00:32:49] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:50] Sherri: Yeah.
[00:32:50] Jess: So if, if for, for any cis people who might be watching this mm-hmm. Who are looking for ways to better support trans people in their lives, if someone asks you for feedback and says, Hey, can I have some feedback in my voice?
[00:33:02] Um, what are some helpful ways to do that that can actually, like, be actionable for them and aren't, aren't gonna make things more difficult or confusing?
[00:33:10] Sherri: Yeah. Also, good question. And I have had, some people will come back when I say, get some feedback and they'll say, yeah, you know, they know me and they like me, so they just say I'm doing a good job.
[00:33:22] Um, I guess, um, you have to, the relationship has to be there to be able to say, um, I think that sounds good, or That does sound like what you're working towards, or, yeah, that sounds a little, I'm not sure I would, I would know that that was mm-hmm. Your voice or not? I think it has, I think it really has to do with the relationship with the person.
[00:33:54] You have to find the right person who's gonna give you some honest feedback. Sometimes I'll say, you know, tell people what you're working on and see what they think. Um, but sometimes people, people don't wanna do that and they'll just. Uh, you know, if you say, okay, I'm gonna have coffee with so and so at three, you can tell them that when I have coffee with you at three, I'm gonna be working on my voice.
[00:34:20] Or, or don't tell them, but work on your voice. So I, I think it has to be the right person. Somebody, you, again, somebody you trusts, somebody you feel safe with. Um, somebody who you can say, Hey, I'm working on my pitch. I'm working on intonation, I'm working on resonance, I'm working on the flow. Tell me what you think.
[00:34:42] There's such a difference between everybody who comes in for training. Some people are really in a good place without mental health barriers, and those people kind of grab onto everything and are not, um, set back by not doing what they wanted to do in a. A meeting, you know, they'll say, um, I tried in that meeting, I just couldn't do it.
[00:35:13] I had to switch back
[00:35:15] Jess: right
[00:35:15] Sherri: to my other voice. Um, and it, it really is about where people are, um, emotionally mental health, confidence. Um, one thing that that really helps is to, I, 'cause sometimes I can see that people are kind of, I'm frustrated, I'm not getting where I wanna be. And that is the importance of the recordings that we take at the beginning.
[00:35:45] Um, and so if we, with Changing Keys, we always compare the first session and the sixth session. Um, and people are always amazed at their progress. We can, we can make progress in the six weeks of changing keys. Absolutely. The hard part to the 12 to 18 months is holding onto it. So sometimes I'll say, Hey, let's take some recordings.
[00:36:12] Mm-hmm. So that you can see the progress, that you can hear the progress that you've made. Because as people make more progress, you kind of get away from where you started. Um, and then you forget how far you've come and what you really are doing and all the positive things that are coming from the voice training.
[00:36:30] So sometimes playing, comparing, people say, oh, I don't wanna hear it. I don't wanna hear it. I'm like, I don't force anybody. Like, let's just, I, I really want you to listen and hear your progress. Because once people hear the progress that they have made in even three or four or five, six sessions, that helps the next, the next step.
[00:36:53] Um, because people maybe feel like they're, um, stuck, but they forgot where they came from. Right, right. And so if you can demonstrate the progress that helps with the confidence. Um, and, um, yeah, it's just everybody is so, so different in terms of how they manage, um, taking those steps out into the world and using voice and how they respond if they're, um, uh, misgendered.
[00:37:25] I, I do recall somebody who I worked with who worked in a call center and, um, generally could always use their feminine voice and was happy until somebody couldn't hear or understand them, and then they just dropped back to their, um, old voice so that they could be louder, clearer, stronger. Um. And that person was fine with that.
[00:37:52] Jess: Right?
[00:37:53] Sherri: And, but not everybody is, if sometimes if people hear, um, their old voice, they get very distracted and dysphoric by that. Um, so I just, it's, everybody is so, so different and as a speech path at the other end, we have to be really careful how we navigate things and help and support people, um, through those types of challenges.
[00:38:15] But we really have both ends of the spectrum. People who say, yeah, I don't care and I had to use my, my old voice 'cause that person was just not listening to me and wasn't hearing me, and I needed to get this done. Mm-hmm. And I don't care. And other people who will say, I'm not gonna use my voice that I'm working on until it's perfect.
[00:38:35] Jess: Right.
[00:38:35] Sherri: But that's also not great. Like then we have to say, okay, how about these situations? Because you can't just go from one side of the door to the other.
[00:38:44] Jess: Yeah.
[00:38:45] Sherri: I mean, maybe some people can, but I think that's super hard to just say, okay, I am not gonna use this voice until it's 100% ready. You're gonna set your own barrier with that.
[00:38:57] Jess: I mean, that makes so much, I keep coming back in my head to like learning an instrument, which is like,
[00:39:00] Sherri: right,
[00:39:01] Jess: you can go, you can go to a class every week, uh, or a lesson and
[00:39:06] Sherri: Exactly.
[00:39:06] Jess: You know, learn how to play the instrument. But if you're not practicing it at home, you're only gonna have the six hours of your six classes of practice time.
[00:39:14] Sherri: Exactly.
[00:39:15] Jess: You're never gonna play the saxophone.
[00:39:16] Sherri: Right. And you're never going to do what you wanna do with that instrument. It's exactly the same.
[00:39:21] Jess: Yeah,
[00:39:22] Sherri: it's exactly the same.
[00:39:23] Jess: Oh, that's so interesting. So we've talked a lot about the, I mean, we, we have talked a lot about, I think the, the emotional and psychological challenges behind doing something like this.
[00:39:32] Um. I was going to ask, you know, what is the most challenging part of the process? Is it the, is it the psychological emotional aspect of it or are there like physical practice barriers that people find particularly challenging?
[00:39:47] Sherri: No, I think it's the emotional part of it.
[00:39:49] Jess: Wow.
[00:39:49] Sherri: Is the, is the hardest part.
[00:39:51] Jess: So do you feel like anyone can do this if they stick with it?
[00:39:54] Sherri: For sure.
[00:39:55] Jess: Yep. That's cool. That's really motivating. Yeah.
[00:39:57] Sherri: Everybody, honestly, everybody in Changing Keys makes progress
[00:40:03] Jess: right
[00:40:03] Sherri: from the session one to se session six. Session six is always so awesome. 'cause we take the same recordings we did in session one and we listened back and it's always so awesome for people to hear progress and for me to hear people's progress.
[00:40:18] Yeah. And the same privately. Yes. I absolutely believe that, that anybody can work on their voice and, and make progress. The other barriers might be, or the other roadblocks might be any kind of voice disorder that may have been there in the first place. Hoarseness, laryngitis, nodules, um, you know, effects of reflux that keep focal fold swollen.
[00:40:48] I mean, that may be a bigger barrier, but I have to say that in all my time and working with gender affirming voice training, that the amount of times that we actually find or are concerned about an actual voice disorder may be 1%.
[00:41:06] Jess: Right.
[00:41:07] Sherri: Yeah.
[00:41:07] Jess: So it's usually just the person getting through the
[00:41:10] Sherri: Yeah.
[00:41:10] Jess: Emotional challenge of it.
[00:41:12] Sherri: Yeah. Wow. We, um, I, I like to tell this story. We, uh, when I lived in Madison, Wisconsin, my husband and I went to the, um, symphony and there was a violinist, uh, soloist. And you know, during intermission we bumped into a friend of ours who was a violin teacher. Yeah. And my husband said, so what's the difference between you and her?
[00:41:33] And she just looked at us and said, practice.
[00:41:37] Jess: Yeah.
[00:41:38] Sherri: And that is the bottom line. This is something that has to be practiced.
[00:41:42] Jess: Right.
[00:41:42] Sherri: And every day, honestly, every day, not it, you know, we'd say, you know, do you have like 10 minutes twice a day to sit down and, and attend to your voice? And we want that to be established.
[00:41:57] And then as we add more tools, then obviously you're gonna be communicating during the day and using the tools. But that drill work
[00:42:03] Jess: mm-hmm.
[00:42:04] Sherri: Has to be in there.
[00:42:05] Jess: Right.
[00:42:06] Sherri: That's
[00:42:06] Jess: really cool. Um, okay. So let's talk a little bit about the Changing Keys program.
[00:42:12] Sherri: Sure.
[00:42:13] Jess: Because that's something that is like, I don't know how unique it is now, even within Canada.
[00:42:18] It was certainly one of the. First mm-hmm. Government programs to support this kind of work, wasn't it?
[00:42:23] Sherri: Oh, yeah. And Changing Keys is very unique. Yeah. Um, no other province is doing changing keys. Changing keys is a prescribed voice training femini, voice feminization program.
[00:42:35] Jess: Right.
[00:42:36] Sherri: Nobody else is doing that except us.
[00:42:38] Um,
[00:42:39] Jess: how did that happen? How did BC end up doing something so progressive?
[00:42:43] Sherri: Well, I think it was, uh, I'm gonna look at my cheat sheet. 'cause I wrote that date down. It was, did I write that? Yeah. 2004. Um, Sheila Davies. Yeah. Who's a speech pathologist here in Vancouver. She's retired now. Created, developed this changing keys program.
[00:42:59] This, uh, well it's six sessions now. It used to be nine in the before time. Um, it was a, it was a group. Uh, nine session program for voice feminization. And Sheila, uh, created it. She created all the materials, the, the sessions, and, um, she was doing it through Vancouver Coastal Health. So she started the program.
[00:43:22] She did it by herself for probably close to 10 years, um, where she provided, you know, um, two or three maybe group sessions a year, um, to, how many people did she have in that group? I don't know, six or eight people in the group. Um, and she, she did that. The, the, you know, the word was getting out. Um, the waiting list was growing.
[00:43:46] As I said, I feel fortunate that she invited me into the program, um, probably now about 10 years ago. Um. And then, so Transcare administers the program. It's all, it's provided free to, um, people who sign up for it. The, the, so originally Vancouver Coastal was paying for it. Um, and then a few years back the province took over.
[00:44:11] So now it is officially a provincial health care program. Wow. Uh, administered through Transcare and I don't know if there's another province that provides, um, voice training. I, I don't know the answer to that. But nobody's doing changing keys because we have not, uh, offered any training to other speech pathologists for changing keys.
[00:44:34] Jess: That's really cool.
[00:44:35] Sherri: Yeah, it's, it's an amazing opportunity. Um, you know, we are limited a bit budget wise, so there is a very long waiting list. I mean, the province has been amazing, um, in their support of this program. Um, so the three I do, I think the three of us. Do five sessions a, a fiscal year.
[00:44:56] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:57] Sherri: Um, and so we are offering quite a bit, but there's still quite a long waiting list, which, right.
[00:45:02] Uh, we, you know, we talk about it all the time. We talk about ways to, um, improve and grow, um, so that there isn't such a long waiting list, but, um, it's where we are right now.
[00:45:13] Jess: Right.
[00:45:14] Sherri: Yeah.
[00:45:14] Jess: So how invested do you personally get in the sort of voice journey of your clients?
[00:45:20] Sherri: I, I'm pretty invested in the people I work with.
[00:45:23] Um,
[00:45:27] I want people to be successful. I wanna help people meet their goals. I want, um, yeah, I mean I think there has to be a little bit of a re. I mean, there has to be a relationship.
[00:45:43] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:43] Sherri: Be with, with the person that you're working with. There has to be, or, or there's not gonna be progress. I mean, if you think about, um, any kind of relationship, any kind of clinical relationship or relationship where one person is trying to help another, um, there's gotta be, uh, some investment on both ends.
[00:46:04] So, um, yeah, I mean, I love what I do, uh, all aspects of what I do. I love my career. I, you know, I am, um, invested in the people that I'm working with. I want people to be successful. I want, um, I want peop, I wanna help people reach their goals. And, um, it's, uh, you know, I'm grateful. I'm grateful to be part of people's lives and, uh, their journey and in their.
[00:46:39] Communication in the world.
[00:46:41] Jess: What's your favorite part of it personally? Like, is there a part of the, the process
[00:46:46] Sherri: of being a speech pathologist? Yeah. Or the gender affirming training, or
[00:46:50] Jess: I'll, I'll take any of the above. Well, what do you love about what you do? What's your favorite
[00:46:54] Sherri: part? Yeah. It's the communication.
[00:46:55] It's, it's people coming in and saying, I wanna be able to, um, I, I don't, you know, I wanna be recognized as who I am. I wanna say I love you. I want to, I wanna read to my kids. I want to go back to work. I, it, it's getting people back to the things that they wanna do with their ability to communicate or, and their tools to communicate.
[00:47:23] Um. Um, communication, we is an important part of who we are and how we interact and, and what we do all day long, and how we're successful and how we, um, view ourselves as a communicator in the world. You know, it's all about communication.
[00:47:43] Jess: That makes so much sense.
[00:47:44] Sherri: Yeah.
[00:47:44] Jess: I, you know, you, you've talked a lot about when people are practicing how they need to find people and environments mm-hmm.
[00:47:49] Where they, they trust the people and they feel comfortable in environment.
[00:47:51] Sherri: Yeah.
[00:47:51] Jess: I imagine a lot of that carries over to your practice as well. Like they need to trust you and be in a space that feels comfortable.
[00:47:57] Sherri: Oh, for sure.
[00:47:58] Jess: Yeah.
[00:47:59] Sherri: Yes,
[00:48:00] Jess: yes.
[00:48:00] Sherri: Yeah. I mean, I, I want people to feel, um, safe and comfortable with me.
[00:48:07] Absolutely. But, and I, that's part of, you know, being a clinician with anybody you work with, uh, trust and safety and, um, you know, letting people know you.
[00:48:24] Jess: Right,
[00:48:25] Sherri: right.
[00:48:26] Jess: Yeah.
[00:48:26] Sherri: Um, having said that, sometimes it's just not a good fit. Mm-hmm. And that's okay. It's okay if, if somebody comes in and I'm not a good fit for them, I want them to find somebody who is gonna be a good fit so that they're successful.
[00:48:42] I don't wanna force anybody into anything. Um, but I try, I try to meet people where they are, where they at, where they are at, and make sure I'm working on their goals and make sure I check in with their goals and, uh, make sure we have good relationship.
[00:48:59] Jess: Yeah. So is there a moment from like the first time you meet somebody to that, you know, time in the last session where you're, they're listening back to the initial recording and the current one.
[00:49:09] Is there like a, a moment where you see something click or you get to see somebody hear the progress they've made that you really love?
[00:49:16] Sherri: Oh yeah. We're always looking for the aha moment, always. I mean, that's one of our goals is the aha moment.
[00:49:22] Jess: What does that look like in
[00:49:24] Sherri: clients? Um, sometimes it's tears, you know, sometimes, 'cause every, you know, I, I do see PE changing keys is all virtual.
[00:49:32] Yeah. Um, but also in the office. So, uh, oftentimes people listen back and then if they, they like what they hear, oftentimes there's tears, uh, which then I know, okay, we are on the right track. Or, um, people will be, they'll listen back and I'll see them smile. Um, because, you know, if they're not smiling, they don't like what they did.
[00:49:56] Um, uh Yeah. Or people saying like, yeah, tears. Um, people saying, that doesn't even sound like me. It what I came in here with. Yeah,
[00:50:12] Jess: yeah, yeah.
[00:50:14] Sherri: I don't recognize that voice. I'm like, that's awesome. That's great.
[00:50:18] Jess: Yeah.
[00:50:18] Sherri: Because they'll say, well, that's really different. I'm like. Well, success it works because we're going for something different, right?
[00:50:26] Um, so when people say, oh my God, I can't believe that's me. That doesn't even, you know, that doesn't sound like I didn't expect it to sound that way, or, you know, those kinds of comments are then, you know, you're on the right track. And, and, and also when people come back sometimes, sometimes, you know, we log on.
[00:50:47] You know, I'll be like, so how was your week? Well, this week I did this with my voice and that with my voice. I'm like, okay. You know? Alright, awesome. You know, and people get right into talking about it. And then I know that they've, they've been working on it and they've had a good week and, and, or even if people say, yeah, I was really trying to do this and I couldn't get it.
[00:51:08] That still to me is like, okay, great. Let's talk about it. Let's, let's go. Yeah. Let's fix that.
[00:51:14] Jess: Well, 'cause if you're practicing, even if you're, you're feeling unsuccessful, at least then you have something practice to talk about.
[00:51:19] Right.
[00:51:20] Sherri: You're
[00:51:20] Jess: done.
[00:51:20] Sherri: And that's where that non-judgmental self-assessment could be kind to yourself.
[00:51:24] Comes in. If you don't like it, you don't like it, just let me know if you don't like it. It doesn't have to go deep. Right. If you don't like it, let's fix it. Right. If it doesn't have to be, I don't like that. I'm a failure. That's awful. That's not, that's not true. Mm-hmm. You don't like it. We fix it. Why don't you like about it?
[00:51:43] Let's get rid of that.
[00:51:44] Jess: That's really cool.
[00:51:45] Sherri: Yeah.
[00:51:46] Jess: Um. So, uh, really not that long ago, there were not a lot of resources out there at all for this. Mm-hmm. And it seems like not even a lot of speech language pathologists mm-hmm. Were in the know about it. Mm-hmm. Um, now that's obviously changing a lot and there's also a lot of resources online, a lot more of these, um, informal communities popping up and other schools and Yep.
[00:52:06] Voice clinics. Um, how do you feel about that sort of proliferation of information?
[00:52:11] Sherri: Oh, I think it's great.
[00:52:12] Jess: Yeah.
[00:52:12] Sherri: Oh, for sure. We want, um, people to have access to things wherever they are. And I guess I just, yeah, I mean, I think, I think a big part of success, uh, is knowing the instrument. Um, I think for speech pathologists or voice teachers or singing teachers who are, um, going into this direction, I think there's, if you don't have.
[00:52:43] Uh, some background and voice, it would be recommended that you get that. Mm-hmm. Um, so that you know the instrument and can, and can help people through. 'cause I think it could be easy to just kind of go through the motions. Um, so, you know, for both sides, people need to, uh, look into what's being offered and what people's experiences and for the people doing it, we always wanna be learning and, and knowing and knowing what's out there and knowing what's changing and improving and the services that we provide.
[00:53:15] So, uh, on both ends, uh, I think it's important to, uh, um, do a little investigation into, uh, the service you're providing and the service you're getting. Right? But, but having more resources available to people is awesome, right? We wanna, again, meet people where they're at and make sure work our, our hardest to get everybody access to what they want.
[00:53:41] Yeah.
[00:53:42] Jess: Um, what do you think speech language pathologists brings specifically to this area, this field, that, that others might not necessarily?
[00:53:51] Sherri: Yeah. I think it's all about vocal health and how to take care of the instrument.
[00:53:54] Jess: Right?
[00:53:54] Sherri: Yeah.
[00:53:55] Jess: So, and it sounds like, well, maybe you don't see a lot of people who have like comorbidities with other issues.
[00:54:00] Those, if that's the case, then definitely they wanna be seeing someone who knows those issues.
[00:54:05] Sherri: Right. And, and again, you wanna make sure you're getting people into a place with their voice where it is sustainable with good endurance, and they're not gonna be experiencing vocal fatigue or, um, effort or strain or discomfort, um, doing any of the things that they're trying to do.
[00:54:23] Right.
[00:54:23] Jess: So do you sometimes have somebody who, who's like, they maybe sound like they're doing what they're trying to accomplish, but you're like, mm, that's maybe not sustainable. You can't keep running at that pace.
[00:54:33] Sherri: Absolutely,
[00:54:34] Jess: yeah. Yes. What does, what does bringing that back look like?
[00:54:37] Sherri: It's, it can be very tough because sometimes people have spent a lot of time, uh, doing things not quite the right way.
[00:54:45] Um, so it, it can be a little bit tough. And so, uh, what I try to do is, um, just kind of just say, let's rejig a little bit what you're, you know, you're telling me that you've got strain and, and you can't, and you're having trouble sustaining this and you can go an hour, but then you have to stop. Let's talk about how we're gonna get to the same place.
[00:55:09] 'cause I, I understand you like this, you know, again, you like this voice. You, you like what you're doing with the pitch. Let's just get it into a sustainable, healthy pattern,
[00:55:20] Jess: right?
[00:55:20] Sherri: So that sometimes there might be a step back to move forward. But again, it's, it's part of the relationship and getting people successful and, and knowledge.
[00:55:30] About what you're doing and why you're doing something a particular way and why we might wanna change that. And um, yeah. If somebody is doing something not the way I would do it, but they're not complaining, then Okay.
[00:55:46] Jess: Yeah.
[00:55:49] Sherri: I, we just don't, it's all about the vocal health of the instrument.
[00:55:52] Jess: Right.
[00:55:52] Sherri: Uh, we want it to be sustainable and have good endurance and build that strength.
[00:55:57] And, um, like any muscle, if you're, you know, if you don't have good technique in what you're doing, it's gonna be hard to do it and eventually you're gonna get hurt. Right. Um, and again, not, you're not gonna end up damaging the structure, uh, but we don't want a muscle tension pattern coming in over time.
[00:56:15] Jess: Right.
[00:56:15] Sherri: For sure.
[00:56:16] Jess: How do people describe what kind of voice they're shooting for or trying to achieve?
[00:56:20] Sherri: Hmm. Um, I think we, yeah, that, that's a hard question to ask somebody, but what I will ask is, are there voices that you like? Are you, have you listened to, voices that you like? And almost everybody will say, oh yeah, I like this voice.
[00:56:35] I like this person in this movie. Or, I get a lot of video game, uh, voices, uh, that people like, and then I will, if I can find that voice, then I'll find it. Or people send me, uh, audio to listen to. And I think that's a really good place to start knowing what people, what kind of voices people like. Um, and yeah, it helps us have a, a good place to start.
[00:57:00] And I know what, uh, people are thinking about, uh, and what kind of voices they like. So we can, uh, we can, we can go there. It's a blank slate, people, it's a blank slate. You do whatever you wanna do.
[00:57:11] Jess: Aren't there voices that come up more often? Or once,
[00:57:14] Sherri: not necessarily. There are a fair variety of video, video games, uh, that people like.
[00:57:23] Um, maybe that's a generation thing. I don't know. Um, lots, lots. I don't know what the percentage many, um, people who are wanting voice feminization ask about, uh, low pitch women. And there's a lot of low pitched women. And so we will listen to, uh, low Pitch women and say, how do you know this is a woman? How do you, how, what are you picking?
[00:57:50] Obviously it's a low pitch, which is fine. So how do you know that you're listening to a woman? What is it? And I'll have people listen and they'll say, well, I hear the intonation and I hear some resonance, and I hear, um, you know, pitch changes and, and so that's good. It's a really good kind of, um. Um, knowledge building and awareness part of a session
[00:58:16] Jess: Yeah.
[00:58:16] Sherri: Is to listen to voices and identify why do you think this is a male voice? Why do you think this is a female voice? Um, what do you like about it? Um, so, uh, just as a note, if you go to, um, IMDB and search Low Pitch Women, you'll come up with a whole list of
[00:58:36] Jess: that's really cool.
[00:58:36] Sherri: Women, women's voices.
[00:58:38] Jess: I remember there was a, an actor on the show, the Expanse, I don't know if she's come up, I forget her name, but she plays like a high up politician on the show and she has this deep gravely voice That's incredible.
[00:58:49] Sherri: I can never remember her name.
[00:58:50] Jess: Yeah.
[00:58:51] Sherri: Yes. And that is somebody that I talk about.
[00:58:53] Jess: Yeah.
[00:58:54] Sherri: Um, she's got a very low. Pitch, but you know, it's a woman.
[00:58:57] Jess: Yes. You know, you know that she's a woman. Right. And it's an, and it's an amazing voice. It's a very Right. Like powerful voice in its own way.
[00:59:03] Sherri: Yep.
[00:59:03] Jess: Yeah.
[00:59:04] Sherri: Yeah.
[00:59:04] Jess: That's really cool.
[00:59:04] Sherri: So Pi, back to the very beginning pitch isn't everything.
[00:59:07] Jess: Yeah.
[00:59:08] Sherri: There's so much more that makes voice, that makes us a, that helps us interpret, uh, and make impressions about voice rather than pitch, which is nice 'cause people wanna have Lee wave.
[00:59:18] Jess: Yeah.
[00:59:18] Sherri: Uh, with pitch. It shouldn't be all about pitch.
[00:59:21] Jess: Do, do people tend to overfocus on pitch then
[00:59:23] Sherri: sometimes.
[00:59:24] Mm-hmm. Until we get to the other things and then they realize that they've got leeway with pitch because you, let's say somebody is trying to work in the 180 to two 20 range for average. Mm-hmm. Um, and then we'll do something conversational and they'll be like, oh, it's one 60. I'm like, well just go ahead and listen to that.
[00:59:41] And once they listen back, 'cause then they, uh, you know, kind of, here's my number.
[00:59:45] Jess: Yeah.
[00:59:46] Sherri: Um, but don't forget to listen because we are working on so many different tools that feminize voice, um, and then they listen back. They're like, oh, okay. I like that. Yeah.
[00:59:57] Jess: Well, I, I think I, I mean, I think that speaks to something that can also happen in terms of aesthetics as well as
[01:00:03] Sherri: mm-hmm.
[01:00:03] Jess: Acoustics, which is often people can have this idea of like, I have to achieve this very specific objective thing. Mm-hmm.
[01:00:09] Sherri: Mm-hmm.
[01:00:10] Jess: And then you actually go look at a group of people or listen to a group of people, right. And you're like, there's so much variation here. Mm-hmm. It's wild.
[01:00:16] Sherri: Right. We don't all sound the same.
[01:00:18] Jess: No, not at all. Right. Okay. So that's all the questions I have. Thanks so much for speaking with me today. This was so exciting.
[01:00:25] Sherri: Yeah, my pleasure. It's great to be here and really cool
[01:00:27] Jess: talk
[01:00:27] Sherri: voice. Cool.
[01:00:28] Jess: Um, if people want to know more, uh, find out more about you, about changing keys, about the work you do, um, where can they find that?
[01:00:35] Sherri: Uh, I am at the Sury Voice Clinic. Uh, you, I'm always, people are always welcome to be in touch with me. My email is Sherri, S-H-E-R-R-I, at surrey voice clinic.com. My website is Surrey Voice Clinic. Um, so you could, if you didn't get that, you can go there and communicate with me through the website. Um.
[01:00:55] Changing Keys is a, a Transcare, provincial Transcare program. If you go to the transcare website, um, and then under offerings, or I can't remember what it's under, uh, you could search for changing keys and the application information application is there. Um, and I would encourage people to apply because, um, wait lists talk, right?
[01:01:17] It's not a lot of people say, I don't wanna be on a wait list, but if you're not on the wait list, we can't say we need more money and more, more, uh, instructors. Um, so, so that's another reason to get on the wait list. One, to get a spot in changing keys, but two, to help us support, uh, program development.
[01:01:34] Jess: That's awesome. Okay. Yeah. So get on the wait list. So the wait list is long so that we get more funding.
[01:01:39] Sherri: Exactly.
[01:01:39] Jess: Cool.
[01:01:40] Sherri: Exactly.
[01:01:40] Jess: Thanks so much, Sherry. This
[01:01:41] Sherri: has been great. Yeah, thank you. It's great.
Credits
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[01:01:43] Jess: The words don't fit the picture is created by Jess Lupini. This episode is edited by Koby Michaels and produced by Jess Lupini and Lucas Kavanagh. Production funding was provided through Telus Storyhive. Special thanks to Nicole Doucette and Alexa Landon.
[01:02:02] See you next time.