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From Here Forward shares stories and ideas about amazing things UBC and its alumni are doing around the world. It covers people and places, truths, science, art, and accomplishments with the view that sharing better inspires better. Join hosts Carol Eugene Park and Jeevan Sangha, both UBC grads, in exploring solutions for the negative stuff out there — focussing on the good for a change, from here forward.
[00:00:00] Carol Eugene Park: Hello, friendly alumni. You're listening to From Here Forward, an award-winning UBC Podcast Network podcast. I'm Carol.
[00:00:07] Jeevan Sangha: And I'm Jeevan.
[00:00:08] Carol Eugene Park: So, this month's episode was such a treat for Jeevan and I. If you didn't know, a Canadian literary classic is making its debut on the stage at Toronto's Crow's Theatre until October 11th.
[00:00:19] Jeevan Sangha: A Fine Balance, written by Rohinton Mistry, is a novel of epic proportions. You might remember it; it was released back in 1995 and was critically acclaimed. I'm talking Giller Prize-winning and one of only two Canadian books chosen for Oprah's Book Club.
[00:00:36] I am actually currently immersed in the world of A Fine Balance. I'm about 200 pages in, and it-- I can see why it's a classic. It is just- it immediately pulls you in.
[00:00:46] Carol Eugene Park: It's a 600-page book, by the way, so 200 pages in is actually quite impressive. Last week, I actually had the chance to attend one of the first shows, in fact, the premiering opening night in Toronto through the Canadian Literature Adaptation Fund, which started in 2022. And so basically, theatre and Canadian storytelling is so back.
[00:01:08] I don't wanna spoil too much about the play in case people go watch it, even though a lot of it is sold out. Don't be jealous that I got to see it first night.
[00:01:16] I was obsessed with how intimate the play was. Like, yeah, everyone who knows theater is gonna be like, "Duh, that's the whole point of theater." I don't know theater, but I went. I was immediately immersed in these four characters, but also just, like, the dynamic between them were things that I had actually never really picked up on while I was reading the book 'cause the book, as Jeevan said, it's an epic. Like, seeing it live It brought me back to the ground.
[00:01:48] Also the ending, oh my God, it was so good. If you weren't paying attention, you completely missed it. It was just like I gasped and then I couldn't breathe 'cause I kept, like, holding my breath. The execution of it was chef's kiss.
[00:02:07] Jeevan Sangha: This month, Carol and I chatted with the man behind adapting A Fine Balance for the stage, award-winning playwright, author, and UBC creative writing professor, Anosh Irani. There are so many conversations right now about the art of adaptation, and I mean, even just starting this book, I can't imagine the amount of work that must have gone into adapting this for the stage.
[00:02:31] And so it was really great to be able to talk to Anosh more about it.
[00:02:34] Carol Eugene Park: Yeah, it was really lovely chatting with him about his approach to adaptation, his relationship to A Fine Balance, and how his time at UBC shaped him as a professional writer and playwright.
[00:02:45] Jeevan Sangha: So, without further ado, let's jump into the conversation.
[00:02:48] So to start, can you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about who you are and what you do?
[00:02:54] Anosh Irani: I'm Anosh Irani. I'm a novelist and playwright. originally from Bombay. I moved to Canada in 1998. Came here as an international student, to study creative writing at UBC, and here I am, you know, almost 30 years later adapting, one of my favorite novels, A Fine Balance, for the stage.
[00:03:15] Carol Eugene Park: Well, congratulations on opening week. It's probably very chaotic. How are you feeling so far?
[00:03:21] Anosh Irani: You know, there's, there's the euphoria of a new play. There's the, there's the challenge at the same time that it's a fine balance. Think it's a combination of those two things.
[00:03:33] Carol Eugene Park: Exhausted yet?
[00:03:34] Anosh Irani: So, it's a privilege to, privilege to work on this show.
[00:03:37] exhausted, yes, of course. But then you get, you know, the adrenaline gets, gets going, especially when with each show, the actors keep getting better and better and better, and the show gets better, and you can see more clearly, you know, what lines you can cut, how to enhance things. I think that gives you the energy.
[00:03:59] Carol Eugene Park: You mentioned, at the very beginning that you know this book very well. Could you take us back to the first time you read A Fine Balance, and what has stayed with you since that first time you've read it to now?
[00:04:12] Anosh Irani: This must have been in maybe '95 or '96. I was not much of a reader back then. I was still living in Bombay and, you know, I was more interested at the time in sort of playing football and cricket.
[00:04:27] And my girlfriend at the time, she was a reader, and her dad had, a massive library and, I, I... It was her copy of A Fine Balance that I borrowed and something really strange happened. As I started reading, the book had this pull. Now every time I left the house, I wanted to come back home and read, which was a very strange experience for me because I wasn't that involved in, in literature at the time.
[00:04:56] I was always interested in oral storytelling and, you know, but this was a new feeling, and I think it was the, the realization that I cared deeply about these characters that Rohinton Mistry had, created. And when I finished the book, I remember just going still and silent, because I think that is what great art does, whether it's live theater, it's cinema, it's, it's a, it's a poem, it's a, a painting. It just sort of induces this silence. It, it stills everything in you. And I remember thinking and realizing for the first time, "This is what a novel can do. This is what literature can do." And that was my experience of, of reading A Fine Balance way back, way back then.
[00:05:46] Jeevan Sangha: It's such an epic. I, I'm actually reading it for the first time right now. So, I think maybe you're both jealous of me 'cause I have the experience of being able to read it for the first time. And for, especially for a longer novel, the way it pulls you in almost immediately with the way that the characters are sketched out and how the exposition is laid out is, is really phenomenal.
[00:06:08] How did you come to adapt the book for Crow's Theatre? And when you found out about this opportunity, what was your first reaction? Did it feel exciting? Did it feel intimidating? Did it feel like everything in between?
[00:06:22] Anosh Irani: So, I had actually approached Crow's Theatre maybe, three or four years ago, three years ago maybe, to, to see if, you know, they could, produce some of my previous plays at that point I did not want to write a new play because I was pretty exhausted.
[00:06:39] I had just finished, working on, a, a show called Behind the Moon, and I was also working on a novel. I said I didn't want to start a new play. but I got on a Zoom call with, Paolo Santalucia, who was the associate AD at the time. He said, "Well, we, we really like your work, and we'd like you to consider writing a new play for us. We, we have this Canadian adaptation literary fund."
[00:07:09] And I promise you I, in my head I said, "Please don't let it be A Fine Balance." And he said, "Well, it's Rohinton Mistry's A Fine Balance." I went, "Oh, no," because I knew I had to do it. If it was any other book, I would have said no. But I, I took it on as, both a challenge and a privilege. To be able to live in the world that he created, for the last three years has really been, a gift.
[00:07:36] Carol Eugene Park: Has your relationship with the characters evolved throughout the productions process compared to when you first engaged with the book?
[00:07:45] Anosh Irani: Yes, of course. I mean, you, you get to know them, at a much deeper level. I also taught A Fine Balance a couple of years ago at UBC, for, with my novel writing class. So again, that gave me another opportunity to, to go much deeper into their lives and see what other writers, other students thought of the novel, especially the ones who hadn't read it.
[00:08:09] And in, in adapting, there's more discovery, right? Adaptation is again about discovery. It's not about just transplant, like bringing something from the novel exactly in the same shape to the play. You're rediscovering, and you're creating things anew. So that's how my relationship changed.
[00:08:33] Carol Eugene Park: So, in recent interviews that you've done, you say that, replicating a book's plot or being overly concerned with, like, the exposition isn't always the main focus for an adaptation. and now I think there's a lot of, like, remakes, Odyssey being one of them.
[00:08:49] Some criticisms that you might hear are like, "It wasn't like the book," or "It wasn't super faithful." What do you make of that as a playwright, as someone who has adapted his own short stories into plays?
[00:09:04] Anosh Irani: So, I would say a new medium, the fact that it's a new medium, the, the, the shape of the container is different.
[00:09:11] So definitely the, the, what's inside that container will be shaped differently. In fact, if you try and replicate the events of the book, you're being unfaithful to the book. It's not about being faithful or unfaithful, it's about being truthful, and truth comes from the characters, from theme. What's the book about?
[00:09:32] You know, the human condition, the relationships between these four unlikely human beings. That's what I'm interested in. That's the center of gravity in the story for me. So, everything comes from there rather than me trying to replicate the events. It's, it's not possible, and one shouldn't try to do it because I don't think it's a good method of adapting something.
[00:09:56] Carol Eugene Park: I'm curious, is there a moment in the play as it stands this week where you have found a different truth from maybe the first show?
[00:10:08] Anosh Irani: I think yes. In fact, just today I was talking to Chris, maybe just before I started this interview, about the connection between certain scenes in the play.
[00:10:22] I, I didn't realize up until this morning where I made some notes and, you know, you can just see all my scribbles, scribbles here, that There's something that happens in this monologue that shows a character's wound, and then something happens in the next scene, and how does it impact on the scene at the end of act one, for example?
[00:10:46] Or what is the connection between a scene in act one and a scene that comes up much later in act two? I mean, these are good notes to share with the director and also with the actor, because they're not connected with dialogue or delivery of lines. There's a much deeper meaning there. It has to do with inner life.
[00:11:05] It has to do with motivation, how one thing leads to something else, but it's not happening from one scene to the next scene. It's the connection between a scene that's taking place, like I said, in act one, and then almost eight scenes later.
[00:11:19] Jeevan Sangha: Are those things that you also pick up on yourself, or it's helpful to have other folks who are able to, like, speak to it?
[00:11:25] Because I imagine, like, living with something for so long, you're just inside the world, and there are certain things that maybe are difficult to see because you're just so immersed. So how much of that are you picking up on yourself, and how much of that do you feel like is helpful just from other folks?
[00:11:41] How collaborative of a process and how solitary of a process is adaptation? Like, how much of it is you and your thoughts, and how much of it is collaborative with other members of the production team?
[00:11:53] Anosh Irani: So, with any form of, playwriting, you know, again, I think every playwright is different.
[00:11:59] I like to work on my own, for a long time because I make lots of notes, whether it's my own play or whether it was for A Fine Balance. I make lots of notes in longhand. I stay away from the computer. And then you write the first draft. And what I did is once I had a draft that felt, like it had some shape and depth to it, I read the play with my uncle, who's an actor in India, and we sort of kept fine-tuning.
[00:12:34] In a way, the, he was the first reader of, of the play, and then at the time, the draft was 180 pages, which is, which is a lot. It's now about 127 pages. So, you can imagine how much I cut, right? But then, of course, once it was in good shape, I sent it to Chris Abraham, who's the director and, of the show, and then you get, get feedback.
[00:12:56] Then the actors come in, and you realize things on your own. Actors share their own notes because now they're the ones inhabiting the character. So, it, it's definitely a collaborative process, but I would say initially it's just me. It's, it's a solitary act, and I think that's where, that's where I, I do my digging and research and constant, you know, discovery and rediscovery. It’s a good, great question because I'm picking up on, connection between scenes, but then you need someone to be objective. So, for example, someone saw the show for the first time last night and gave some extremely valuable feedback just about things as simple as plot, or, "I did not understand who this character is when the character's name is just mentioned," or, "I feel this needs a little bit more setup here."
[00:13:49] Those are more objective sort of notes, which are very useful because they're almost logical and have to do with an understanding of story. when I'm really inside it, to, to come back and have an objective look at things in terms of logic, I'm, I'm going into inner life. I'm going into, you know, fine-tuning performances. So, you, you can't be in all those places at one time, which is why the collaboration, the collaborative nature of theater works.
[00:14:18] Carol Eugene Park: So, we are an alumni podcast, so I do wanna quickly ask about your time at UBC. In what ways has studying fine arts at UBC, shaped your work and your process now?
[00:14:32] Anosh Irani: So, it had a huge impact on me because I was in the creative writing program, and I had wonderful instructors, and I would not be teaching at UBC today if I did not believe that craft can be shared, because, that's what the program did for me.
[00:14:48] It also gave me a chance to explore multiple genres, which is what the School of Creative Writing does so well and is, is known for, is, our ability to sort of allow the students to try, you know, they'll, they'll have a couple of main genres, let's say poetry and, and short fiction. But then what if they wanna try writing a graphic novel but they, they don't know how to draw? They can still try that, and I think that's where the real value is, stretching yourself a little bit, taking an artistic risk, being vulnerable. This is what the program allows you to do.
[00:15:26] In my case, I started out writing as a, I was focusing on poetry and short stories. I ended up writing novels and plays, right? So, you, you never know what leads to something else. And then I published a short story collection, 2019, after publishing four novels. So, you, you don't know what the next, step is.
[00:15:50] And I think it's also doing a, an MFA for me. I did my BFA and my master's, but doing my MFA was valuable time being able to just write. Well, I always tell students, "You have time. Don't be in a rush to, to get out, and don't complain about having time. Just use that time really well, because you won't get this chance once, once you graduate. You may not have that much free time."
[00:16:16] Jeevan Sangha: When was it during your program or during your studies where you had that shift towards novels and plays from poetry and short story? Was there, like, a specific moment, or was it just a longer process of exploration?
[00:16:28] Anosh Irani: So, a, a lot of things in my life have happened by chance. So, something strange happened when I was, when I finished my BFA, I was, as you know, I mentioned I was doing poetry and short stories. So, a friend of mine told me, "Hey, I heard you're writing a novel." I said, "No, I'm not." And he said, "Well, George has put you in his novel writing class."
[00:16:47] I had enrolled in experimental fiction, and my instructor, George McCarter, had decided or had enough faith in me that I'd be working on a novel. I said, "Well, I guess I'm writing a novel then." And that's what happened. I mean, you can't do that today. I guess that doesn't happen because of, you know, the way students enroll and stuff. But it was so great that he just did that. And the novel that I worked with him for my thesis was the novel that I ended up publishing and became a national bestseller.
[00:17:19] So I had no desire to write a novel, but I was told, "You're writing one." And so, I said, "Okay." And that's, you know, you just, you just, you don't have to overthink something. When you overthink, it, it gets in the way of, you, you just ride the wave. You just have to immerse yourself in it as an artist. There's no, you, you think too much, you get, you get stuck.
[00:17:46] Jeevan Sangha: I think it takes a lot of courage as an artist to do that, 'cause writing can be so vulnerable and so, like exposing almost, like of your inner thoughts, your emotions. Where do you think you get, that, I guess like that courage or that like ability to just lean into a challenge or something different or uncomfortable
[00:18:08] Anosh Irani: Not writing about myself, that's the thing. You know, you, you have to be able to inhabit other characters. Yes, there is always a part of you in everything that you write, but if you just keep writing about yourself, I'm not interested in that. The, I, I am, it's not that I haven't, I have written, I've written autofiction, but the, the beauty of this art is that you are inhabiting the consciousness of human beings who might not be anything like you and that's what you're sharing with, with readers, right?
[00:18:43] What, what a novel does so well, unlike any other art form, is it, it gives you direct access to someone's consciousness. And so, the vulnerability will be there in the fact that you're putting your work out there in the world, and someone can watch a play and go, "That didn't move me." But that's three years of, of work, and you have to be, you have to be okay with that. That's the discipline. That's the job.
[00:19:09] Carol Eugene Park: At what point in your career were you able to develop that thick skin of just being like, "Someone consumed my work," and was like, "Meh, didn't work for me"? Or are you still working through that?
[00:19:23] Anosh Irani: I think you're always working through that, but Here’s the thing, you, you just have no choice. And for me, I'm, I'm not focusing so much on how something is received. I'm really focused on the process, and there's a certain juice and joy that you get from the process, and that should be the reward. I know it's easy to say these things because, you know, there's reviews and there's box office and there's sales and all of that. And it's true, it exists. But I'm really interested, and this is something I know to be true about myself, I'm, I'm just really interested in the craft of it.
[00:19:56] And it, being a writer is a great way to spend your life. It's also a very painful way to spend your life. So, you have to be, okay with, with being alone. You have to be okay with your own thoughts. You have to be okay with the fact that if you're working on a novel, it's three years away. Even if you finish it in a year, it's still a while. You have to be okay with time, your relationship with time. You, your first book may be a national bestseller. Your, your next novel, maybe no one will read. It might sell 10 copies. It might be better than the first book, but there's no guarantee. That's the risk. That's the discipline.
[00:20:38] Jeevan Sangha: What we're talking about now in terms of process, in terms of the life of a writer, are these questions that students often bring to you when they're looking ahead at potential careers in the arts?
[00:20:47] Anosh Irani: Sometimes they do. sometimes they do. But even if they don't bring the questions, these are answers that I give them, whether they want to address them or not, because-
[00:20:57] Jeevan Sangha: That's the job of a professor, a good professor ...
[00:21:00] Anosh Irani: this is, this, this is the, this is the experience. A lot of it is psychological. You have to be, your mind has to be strong. It has nothing to do with just being creative or waiting for inspiration or I, I'm ... it, it's not about I'm a very emotional person. All of that doesn't matter. You are here to create a body of work. And so, you, you find the courage to stay there and recognize the fact that you are running a marathon. It's not a sprint.
[00:21:28] It's going to take years for some people to get published, and it's not a race. It's not about who gets there first So what if it takes you seven years to write a book? So what? There are other things you can do. Listen to music, you know, go to the beach, learn how to surf. Of course, work and make money, but it's not about who's getting published first, "I'm still not published."
[00:21:53] No, the focus should be, "Am I getting better at a craft level? Is this bringing me some fulfillment?" If it's not, then, then why do it?
[00:22:03] Carol Eugene Park: Curious if you ever have, like, pushback to that from the younger students.
[00:22:09] Anosh Irani: But that's the truth. I'm saying that if you get an instant publication deal, wonderful. My question is, what happens if you don't? Are you going to be okay or not? And you have to be okay with that, and you have to keep creating. Yes, you may take two years to write one novel, and all the publishers might reject it. That's okay. Start another one.
[00:22:32] This is the truth of the matter, and this is my experience. Although in my case, I wrote my first novel and got published immediately, but that's not what I want to tell students.
[00:22:44] Jeevan Sangha: I'm curious about what your relationship is like with writer's block. So, there are some writers who are like, "I don't think writer's block is real. It's, even if you write something terrible, you write it." But I'm just curious about what that's been like throughout your career.
[00:22:54] Anosh Irani: I don't think you can force anything. I think one of the things about writing is you show up every day, you're disciplined. My experience is you allow things to come to you, allow them to come through you even. but this notion of waiting for inspiration doesn't work for me. Writing is a discipline, just like you're a carpenter. You're making a table.
[00:23:19] Where a carpenter doesn't feel like making a table, too bad, he needs to make one, and it's the same with writing. You, you need to write a paragraph. It doesn't matter if you feel like it today, because these feelings may come and go. You can't depend on your feelings. So, I think the discipline of it is, is very important.
[00:23:39] And I remember years ago, I had a guest lecturer in one of my classes, a writer, Somalian writer named Nuruddin Farah, and he said, "There is no such thing as a writer's block. There's only the writer's impatience." And it's this thing of us demanding that just because I've shown up, something magnificent has to happen. It may, it may not. Be, be patient, but show up every day. That's the discipline.
[00:24:08] Jeevan Sangha: Earlier in the conversation, you talked about one of the joys of fiction being able to enter the consciousness of those whose life experiences you haven't experienced or who live completely different realities, and you also mentioned that your uncle is an actor in India, who I'm a big fan of, by the way.
[00:24:25] I mean, it's really cool that you were working together in some respect on this project too. But, like, what is, what is being able to grow up around creativity or someone who expresses their creativity in that way, what is that like for someone who's discovering their own creativity?
[00:24:41] Anosh Irani: My initial, you know, I would say source of inspiration was oral storytelling. You know, as a kid growing up in my family, my dad's a wonderful storyteller. My grandparents were great storytellers. My uncles, my aunts, my cousins are fantastic storytellers, and it's this tradition of oral storytelling that has been a huge inspiration and influence and source of learning.
[00:25:07] I remember when I was a kid, after playing cricket, you know, sundown, no one wanted to go home, but all of us would stand in a circle and tell jokes. People would tell jokes to each other, and they would tell stories. And so that crowd could be brutal. Kids can be brutal. If you are not entertaining, if you bore them for even a second, they will just have no time for you. And so, I learned how to hold someone's attention as a storyteller as a child.
[00:25:37] So, so these are things that I learned naturally because of my upbringing, my background, watching my family. And then, of course, you know, when I came to Canada, I, I worked as, an intern to the artistic director at the Arts Club Theatre Company because I was part of UBC's co-op program. And that made me, that gave me access to a stage 'cause I was backstage all the time.
[00:26:04] You know, so inhabiting the character, I also learned it as a child because I was a storyteller, and I used to imitate people. You know, I used to imitate them. I used to make things up to make the story a little more colorful. I used to change the shape of the ending. I used to tell the same story in a different way because it didn't work the first time. I mean, who cares about whether it's factual or not? It needs to be truthful, right? So, you embellish a little bit. The, the core of the story stays the same, but you just fine-tune the ending a little bit. The delivery changes.
[00:26:36] So these are things that have helped me today as a novelist and playwright.
[00:26:40] Jeevan Sangha: It sounds like you were adapting those stories in a way-
[00:26:43] Anosh Irani: Right
[00:26:43] Jeevan Sangha: ... For your own voice and your own kind of sensibilities, which is really interesting.
[00:26:48] Anosh Irani: And you pick up mannerisms from people. You pick up their, their flaws, their strengths. You, you learn how to observe. I think that is a very important thing as a writer, is to, to remain silent, and observe. You have to almost disappear at certain moments and just naturally. It, you can't be creepy and just observe. That's weird.
[00:27:08] You know, you just have to kind of be present in the room and have a love for human beings, just make room for them. Accept them with their flaws, with their insecurities, with their eccentric nature. I think these things need to be accepted and celebrated. We need to make room for it, and I, I had a lot of room for it in, in both my mind and my heart, and I think that's helped me, helped me today, not to judge. Because the minute you become judgmental, you will not be able to write characters with any depth.
[00:27:46] Carol Eugene Park: Well, thank you so much for your time. This has been a pleasure, and I'm just gonna quickly say that I loved the ending. I was gasping. It took me on a turn, and it was really interesting to, like, listen to other people's reactions 'cause there was one lady that was next to me, and she missed what had happened at the very end, and she was like, "Wait, why is everyone gasping?" Then we're like, "That," and I'm like, "How did you miss that?" It was so good. I loved it.
[00:28:13] Anosh Irani: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. The, the actors are doing a great job also, I think.
[00:28:17] Carol Eugene Park: Yes.
[00:28:19] Jeevan Sangha: Well, Anosh, thank you so much for joining us today. It was so lovely chatting with you. Congrats again on opening week and, yeah, wishing you all the best for the run.
[00:28:27] Anosh Irani: Thank you. Thank you so much.
[00:28:28] Jeevan Sangha: I think what was interesting in our conversation with Anosh, was talking about how important it was for him to, like, uncover and reveal these, like, truths of the book. What does it mean to, like, take a classic work and sort of present it in your own way?
[00:28:42] Carol Eugene Park: Super daunting. I mean, I feel like, I don't know, we both watched The Odyssey, and we both had feelings. And I am someone notoriously who hates adaptations because I'm like, "I read it as a book. Why are you doing this?" But having read A Fine Balance many years ago and having seen live theatre, I totally understand what Anosh was talking about, like they're two different mediums, and it's not always about being super, like, nitty-gritty about the plot being the same.
[00:29:18] If, if this was a movie, would I say the same thing? Probably not, but because it was live theater, I understood that there is, like, a nuanced take of how things are adapted.
[00:29:27] Jeevan Sangha: Yeah. I'm very excited. We will put more information about the actual play itself in our show notes. So, if you find yourself in Toronto, go check it out and tell us what you think.
[00:29:39] Carol Eugene Park: Thanks everyone for listening. Make sure you catch our next episode by subscribing or following our show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're feeling the feels, please drop us a review. You can find me on Bluesky @caroljeanepark.
[00:29:53] Jeevan Sangha: And me on Twitter @jeevankasanga. From Here Forward is an alumni UBC podcast produced by Kylé McPhedran for Podium Podcast Company.