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Two friends. Two cities. Two perspectives on what it means to thrive.
Guys Like Us is a podcast about the pursuit of a good life—messy, meaningful, and real. Hosted by Marc in New York and Paul in Vienna, it’s where two longtime friends reflect on life, work, relationships, and the moments that shape us.
Each week, we bring a story with a point. Sometimes it’s funny. Sometimes it’s a little raw. But it always comes from a place of curiosity, honesty, and earned perspective.
We believe a good life isn’t just about pleasure—it’s about presence. It’s about friendship that’s been built and maintained across continents. It’s about failures that taught us more than wins. It’s about food and wine, sure—but also doubt, joy, regret, growth, and showing up anyway.
This is a podcast for people trying to live fully—whatever that means to them. One story at a time.
Marc Winter (00:11)
Hello and welcome to Guys Like Us, the podcast about champagne problems and existential questions. How are you, Paul?
Paul Fattinger (00:19)
Good
morning, Mark. I'm getting there. Coffee is helping.
Marc Winter (00:22)
⁓
You'll notice we haven't been sponsoring each other. We haven't been sponsored lately. We've been sponsored by caffeine. ⁓
Paul Fattinger (00:31)
Yeah, because we're recording
in the morning and I think if we had an alcoholic beverage sponsor now you should rightly so, you know, plan an intervention because it would be too much. I'd be worried. Yeah. I'm going to tell you later when we talk about the edit of the week. No, no, but it's good. mean, yesterday evening was amazing. We had a really good time.
Marc Winter (00:41)
I'd be worried. I'd be worried. ⁓ How was your night? Claude. ⁓
Paul Fattinger (00:58)
⁓ you know we were how what's the name of this place okay the food was
fantastic yeah
Marc Winter (01:05)
It's one of the great wine, it's not even really a wine bar. You know, they say it's a wine bar, it's like these phenomenon of
extraordinary, because they're smaller plates, I guess in a way. No, no, no, no. It's the same idea. Oh, perfect. So I know what you like. That's good. So I'm happy. Oh, Tara Blues.
Paul Fattinger (01:15)
Extraordinary because they're plates. Have we ever been to must in Vienna actually? That's exactly the same thing. Same idea. it's my favorite place. It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. No, but also the place afterwards. ⁓
Marc Winter (01:34)
which is ⁓ an amazing blues place, Chicago Blues Place
in the West Village. And one of my favorite guitarists was playing, Saron Crenshaw.
Paul Fattinger (01:45)
Yeah, and that's something we just don't get. mean, period. That's something you only get here in New York and not in Vienna for sure. Not like that.
Marc Winter (01:52)
Yeah, it's a very American experience.
well, listen, you know, I'm really excited for today's topic. And, you know, I thought I would start. ⁓ It's about superpowers. And, you know, I was wondering way back when whether or not you had a superhero that you love growing up.
Paul Fattinger (02:13)
Huh, that's a very good question. And I actually did not. I think my superhero was Michael Knight from Knight Rider. That was my superhero. David Hasselhoff was my superhero. What a great start to this podcast.
Marc Winter (02:14)
I'm sure it was first time. I think it was not first time.
This is great. Exactly. I love the car
that can respond to you and the Hoff. Actually, is so on-brand. You know, like in the US, we're always convinced that the Germans just, and Austrians by default, just have an obsession with David Hasselhoff. You know, it's a thing.
Paul Fattinger (02:41)
Sure.
We do. think that's the only place on earth where he's big, but he's bigger than life there. I mean, it's a thing, right? I actually remember that the kit, you the car was somewhere in the shopping center and we went there. I had a, this was one of my, first time, maybe that's also super power. That's how I learned, you know, a little bit of bullshitting. I had my school bag, you know, my shoe tush was a Knight Rider shoe tush. So it had Knight Rider motives on it, right? So.
But I wasn't allowed to watch Knight Rider. So then you go to school, you have that school bag. And then classmates ask you, what happened? Did you watch the show yesterday? And I was like, of course, of course. So yeah, it wasn't amazing. So yeah, it was amazing. The car jumped, and then the bad guys went away. That was always right. I didn't need to watch it because.
Marc Winter (03:24)
Yeah, yeah.
It's always good.
Paul Fattinger (03:48)
It was actually very easy to describe what happened without ever seeing it. So yeah, sorry, that was a bit of a detour.
Marc Winter (03:55)
No, it was there's amazing
one. Well, I want to add to that because first of all, I was also a huge fan of Knight Rider. mean, mean, Kit was amazing. I had the black leather jacket that some like an aunt gave it to me. Yeah. Yeah. But it was like a fake thing, you know, that ⁓ the Hoff was wearing. And I just felt like the coolest. And, you know, I had the Knight Rider lunch pail and this kind of thing. But
Paul Fattinger (04:05)
No way you're kidding me.
Marc Winter (04:17)
I wouldn't call him superhero, it's a good one. It's a hero that you looked up to, right? Basically, Hoff, amazing car, always beautiful woman he was saving, maybe didn't realize that, putting bad guys in jail. ⁓ Forward looking, kind of spy stuff too. For me, it's funny, like I, since you asked, ⁓ I loved, do you ever have He-Man?
Paul Fattinger (04:44)
Of course, man. Yeah, that's another fun.
When you're digging deep in my in my childhood memories. Yeah. We had Heman and we played Heman in kindergarten. OK, so it was this beautiful kindergarten that had an outdoors and they were always playing around the tree and that was our castle kind of thing. But I was not the strongest guy in kindergarten. There was a guy called Clemens and he always said, I'm going to pee my pants. I am Heman.
Marc Winter (04:48)
Good place to start.
Paul Fattinger (05:13)
and you were fist man. was the number two, so he was fist man. So I was always fist man. So yeah, I know him, but I'm kind of a bit scared because I was only fist man.
I know these little figurines. I only know those, I don't think I've ever seen him. Like, in Night Rider, of course I couldn't watch him. And so I only knew I was this blonde muscle guy. That's basically, and I was this bad guy. That's all I knew. I basically, my human memory is me only being Fistman and those figurines. I've never seen the thing on TV. My life.
Marc Winter (05:35)
That's That's funny. ⁓
It's funny to me, I mean, superpowers and superheroes, I think, have kind of, you they start with us when we're younger, right? Like, you know, they start with kid shows, they start with books, et cetera, blah, blah, blah. And I actually think, like, in modern society, like, I think we're also just continue to be obsessed with them, right? And... Exactly. I mean, as soon as, you know, and I was a huge comic book fan.
Paul Fattinger (06:12)
at all the movies and yeah crazy
Marc Winter (06:20)
growing up, would collect comics, et cetera, was, know, big part of storytelling. And I was always wondering why is there not a comic book, you know, movie of X-Men or something, they could do the Batmans, Batman was easier, right, but like, you know, the real Wolverine, that kind of cool stuff. And of course, they didn't have the technology then, but as soon as they had it, they couldn't stop making them, right, because everyone wanted to get them.
Paul Fattinger (06:43)
I never kind of got them all, I don't know, I never got into them, but that's a different story. What's this like kind of superpower, I'm crushing your course here, you would like to have?
Marc Winter (06:48)
What's this like having super power? for person you would like to take
on? Yeah, you know what I mean. You know what's the thing?
Paul Fattinger (06:56)
Yeah, yeah, in general like if you were one of those, you know heroes, what's the one you would like to
have? Oh, okay, then I mute myself
Marc Winter (07:03)
on this, because I'm
so glad you asked. growing up, the one superpower I always wanted to have was stopping time. I loved, I thought it would just be amazing. Stop time, and the world would freeze, and I would just go around and, know. Stopping. I never thought about rewinding yet. And I wasn't that sophisticated as a five year old. Basically, what I wanted, you know, was to stop time.
Paul Fattinger (07:14)
Yeah. And the world would freeze and I would just go around and... Just stopping it or rewinding? Stopping. Okay. I never thought about rewinding. Yeah, okay.
Loser.
Marc Winter (07:32)
Stop time and then go through
the supermarkets because my mom wouldn't let me eat all the great stuff, you know So I was just like I'm gonna stop time while everyone's there. I'm gonna eat all the like frozen. Yeah. Yeah exactly That's how your abuse of yogurt started
Paul Fattinger (07:41)
Amazing. I love it. Yeah. Stick my finger into the yogurt. That's what I did. You know, through the, you know, through the aluminum foil on top. Yeah.
Exactly. That's how I saw it. My mom had to buy lots of yogurt that day.
Marc Winter (08:02)
Well, it's since involved, I mean, actually, it's funny, I was mentioning this to you earlier, like, it's evolved. Like, right now, I think I channel my anxiety about what's happening in the world into a recurring dream I have, where I actually play a bit of a superpower in a way. And it's a weird mental exercise where I kind of have godlike powers that I learn, but I have eight hours until they disappear. And it's a kind of...
Paul Fattinger (08:18)
It's a weird mental exercise where I kind of have godlike powers that I learn, but I have eight hours until they disappear.
Marc Winter (08:30)
prioritization exercise in a weird way, right? Because at first, you and it's, I have godlike powers. So basically, you know, the first thing I like to do is like, what's under war in Ukraine? I was like, knock out the Kremlin, you know, fill, like fill up ⁓ the trenches, you know, with dirt, you know, and with the snap of my fingers, then I go straight to the DMZ in, in Korea and ride a surfboard and blow up all the mines, you know, it's just like really fun, you know, then I was like, lift all the plastic out of the ocean, it to space, like,
Trying to rewire the world in the best way you can in eight hours is just kind of a fun exercise. So I'm answering your question through a dream I always keep coming to. And I always kind of fall asleep because I just keep on thinking of the things I would love to do and what I could do until I pass out. Yeah.
Paul Fattinger (09:14)
That's amazing. That's amazing.
I had dreams, but I haven't had them in a while where I was able to fly. And then I flew. And then when I was flying, I was like, damn, what if I now forget how you fly and fall down? That's a very weird dream. Maybe that's an imposter syndrome dream. I don't know. I have to analyze this.
Marc Winter (09:34)
I
have a broad naiveté of imposter syndrome. It's fun. ⁓ Okay. Well, I mean, headline is that we think about it a lot, whether it's in our dreams, whether it's in our media and the stories that we consume, et cetera. But actually think about when you really get real, do you believe that...
Paul Fattinger (09:41)
Exactly.
Marc Winter (09:58)
do believe in superpowers, that is, actually, like, that there are skills that you are extraordinary at and better than others. Yeah, absolutely. I absolutely do. I think everyone has a very easy approach, I know, to our approach and people can supply them with everything. I actually think the opposite, you know, when you see the power
Paul Fattinger (10:06)
Absolutely, I absolutely do. think it's I Think everyone has them. It's very it's not easy always to find out what they are and to actually then You know are be able to apply them wherever you are, but I absolutely think we all have we know, you know one kind of superpower
Marc Winter (10:26)
And before I ask you what's yours, do you think that, you know, ⁓ can you have more than one? like, is it in do you believe that, you know, everyone's got one kind of special gift? I sound like ⁓ Dirk Diggler in Boogie Nights, know, I think that was the line of the movie. But you know, that everyone's is good at least at one thing. It's about finding it and harnessing it and unlocking it.
Paul Fattinger (10:49)
I don't know if it's more than one or two and it depends on how you grouped and do things. think... And you know, I don't... I'm not sure what mine is actually. be more interesting to see what you think actually the other way around. But I find it's not... It's not so easy to actually know what is really my superpower. I find that as an interesting one to think about.
Marc Winter (10:52)
Yeah.
You know, company has these superpower cards which is designed to help you find your superpower. I gave them to you years ago. You clearly didn't use them. Yeah, yeah. No, no. And that is our relationship in a nutshell. ⁓ Actually, I think like
Paul Fattinger (11:21)
Problem is you didn't find the cards. ⁓
It's true, didn't use them. Really, that's what they were for? I thought they were just pretty cards to look at.
Marc Winter (11:39)
If I had to name a superpower for you, I mean there many, but I think you're an extraordinary systems thinker. I think you think in systems, I think you're able to connect dots and see the implications of and the causes of different moves and think ahead in remarkable ways. I think you're quite really good at that. And I think you have one of the all-time great ones, which is grit. And you know what grit means, Yeah.
Paul Fattinger (12:06)
Yeah.
Marc Winter (12:08)
And that is you when you set your mind to it, you will make
this thing happen one way or another. And I think you giving up is a really it's really hard for you to do. Yeah. We'll talk about chat. We'll talk about shadow sides in a bit. Yeah. But anyway, does that resonate with you? Cool. ⁓ please tell me. ⁓
Paul Fattinger (12:19)
It's actually the anti-superpower giving up. can't, it's very hard to give up, which is also not, you know, can, you know, get you into trouble. Exactly. Exactly. It does. It does. I think there is another one in there, but yeah.
Marc Winter (12:37)
Now that this conversation has gotten your juices flowing.
Paul Fattinger (12:38)
Exactly. No,
Marc Winter (12:44)
Yeah.
Paul Fattinger (12:41)
This is always so interesting when you hear that from the outside, right? What people
think of what you yourself think. I think it's because sometimes we take our superpowers for granted. And that's why I think it's always interesting to ask someone else. Because I guess that our superpowers that we use all the time, we get so used to them that it's nothing special anymore. So I wouldn't see the systems. OK, I was like, I don't have great words like this for those. But I do think I have another one. it ⁓ is maybe connected with one,
Marc Winter (12:48)
Sometimes we take our children to college, and that's why I think it's important to us as a sub-unit, because I get to talk to people first, and they're like, I'm going get to
Yeah,
Paul Fattinger (13:11)
the grid is passion and the fact that I can ignite that in other people and bring them together and make them follow a certain goal. And that's the superpower I've had and that is one that really is also fun to have. And I think that's kind of, I don't know if that should be part of it, right? A good question, right? Does this superpower, know, or using your superpower
Marc Winter (13:28)
course.
Paul Fattinger (13:39)
bring you joy?
necessarily because grit doesn't bring me joy to be honest. When I hear grit it's like yeah I know but I mean grit is also hard you know it's hard to have grit and to exercise grit and to stay so is this you know shouldn't that bring you joy at some point too the superpower?
Marc Winter (13:45)
I mean, we should. All right. Yeah, yeah, of course.
Well, first of all, think you have multiple, which you
just outlined. I think ⁓ not, I mean, some are just hard, you know, and I think, and I let me push back a little bit with you on grit, because I grit is also, you stuck with it long enough to get it done. And the satisfaction that comes with that. And yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Paul Fattinger (14:16)
That's fair. It comes afterwards, right? It comes afterwards. Yeah, okay. I can see that. I can see that. Okay, fair enough. So what are yours? I
mean, you have such nice systems. I wouldn't have that nice words. It's very sexy. I like it. I'm gonna print a t-shirt now. what are your superpowers? Well, what's the same exercise? I don't have these nice, words, you know? I didn't read the cards. I didn't read the cards.
Marc Winter (14:25)
It's actually right. ⁓
Well, let's do the same exercise. do you think mine are? Well, ⁓ you can just give some broad strokes here. I want to see if
they match up with mine.
Paul Fattinger (14:48)
I think you are an extraordinarily creative person. ⁓ You come up with shit that is, know, we can talk about the shadow sides of this, but you can. And you also are fearless in that. And I really like that about you that you are like, you know, fuck it, I'm just going to go with it. ⁓ And that is one thing. And a visionary at that. you have a and you can think big. You can think big where others
can't and and and but you manage also through you know the way how you are and how you interact with people and because you're very personable to actually land that you know grandiose vision you know with with other people sometimes right no but you you make it accessible it's not some lofty arrogant vision you you make it very relatable and and these are I think two superpowers that when you when combined you know I think make Mark Winta Mark Winta
Marc Winter (15:20)
you know, ⁓
That's very kind. Wow, good. It does resonate. you very much. And I would add, well, actually, one I would add is energy. I didn't realize that my my founder at one point of this company was was when we first conceiving of these little super power cards.
Paul Fattinger (15:46)
Am I correct? Do they resonate with you?
point.
Marc Winter (16:11)
We had to take photos of people, know, which embody these types of, you know, superpowers. It's like Mark Winter's energy. Pure energy. Sounds cool. Yeah, that sounds cool. Depends where it's directed, you know, but when it's full on, it's good. No, I think that those are really good descriptions of what they are.
Paul Fattinger (16:20)
awesome sun so Mark Winter is energy. I love it.
But how do
you find yours? I mean, or how do you realize what is yours? And what's the benefit of knowing it actually? start there.
Marc Winter (16:38)
So I...
Man, I think that if you build your life's work around something that you're really good at, you know, where that feels like it taps into something that you're really good at, ⁓ then you have good things ahead for you.
Paul Fattinger (16:58)
Is that around this whole notion of, you know, strengthening your strength rather than strengthening your weaknesses? You know, concept? Well, is, it is actually, it's, you know, as well, you know, when you have your strengths and weaknesses of your personality, it says to rather invest in your strengths and make them, you know, even stronger and, you know, make them superpowers to stay with our, you know, with our topic today rather than going to try.
Marc Winter (17:06)
Well, explain it for our audience. I think it's a great one. It's not as well you know, it's as easy as it looks. It's an ethic. It's a product that's to make things even stronger. And you can make things with the product to stay in the balance. And you can that with other things. But I'm
Paul Fattinger (17:28)
to be better at something that you're just naturally not good at. you waste an extraordinary amount of energy
Marc Winter (17:28)
better at it than Richard. So you can make ways. It's working very well.
Paul Fattinger (17:34)
to probably go from minus eight to minus seven, right? Where you could with the same energy go from seven plus seven to 11, right? Because it's, know, there's more return on what you're good at than on what you're bad at. ⁓
Marc Winter (17:34)
I love that. I love that. I
think that's a great life philosophy. And I think that's really interesting. actually never... It's been some time since I thought about that and I think it's great. And actually I think a lot of...
people waste time probably trying to create an all around game ⁓ of talents versus doubling down what you're really great at.
Paul Fattinger (18:11)
100 % and I find all these.
all these say self-improvement and becoming better and more efficient and what you do kind of things, right? And what did you read also everywhere on LinkedIn and so on. So I have to get up at 5 a.m. club. I have to get up. I have to do this. I have to be organized. I have to blah, blah, blah. Right. So and then I was in and still am sometimes a victim of that in the sense is like, OK, I was always disorganized.
Marc Winter (18:20)
never the to do that. I had to do this, had to do it, and I had to it, blah blah blah. And and then I to consider it. And I think that that sense of care and hope is something that's
in a sense of like, I never had the opportunity to do this.
Paul Fattinger (18:43)
in a sense, right? I was, I mean, I could lose things. I never had a tidy and nice to-do list. I
don't know how many things I've tried in my life to keep to-dos in one place. I wrote them on a book. I wrote them in an app, in the next app, in the other book, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? It just didn't work for me. Nothing of these things worked for me. And then, and then once I worked with a professional coach, it was just before I became CEO, and I told him that, and he was like, fuck it, fuck it.
I mean, do you remember the things that are important? I said, yeah, I put them somewhere and I get them. I mean, it's like, yeah, okay. And that's what it is. And then I was like, you know, do I have to have like regular? I was like really trying to make everything right. And he's like, dude, you are now the biggest lion in the fucking jungle, right? You do it like you want to do it. And if you want someone's information, you go there and you get it. It's like when a lion wants to eat, eats, you know, you need to kind of follow what you're good at now. And if your pace is like this,
Marc Winter (19:18)
have That's what it is. And I have a few questions to thank you. You and I are the biggest part of the team. You do this and you do that. You bring information and you that. It's like when the light hits the camera, you're in charge
Paul Fattinger (19:41)
and you are in charge of this is your responsibility
Marc Winter (19:42)
of the team.
Paul Fattinger (19:43)
and that's what's your pace. But, and he's also saying, you know, not try, don't try to put yourself into a corner that you are not, you kind of need to live. mean, there are some things that we have to do in professional life that is kind of like a table stake, right? So you can't show up late and all these kinds of things, of course, right? You can't just say, no, sorry, that's how I am. ⁓ But on the other hand, yeah, some things don't force yourself into it. Don't force yourself into a to-do list if you're not the kind.
Marc Winter (19:44)
Right, course. Right.
Can you be more active? But, kind of, yeah, I mean, totally. And I love the, I love the philosophy. Look, I mean, they're healthy behaviors, right? Let's call it like our good housekeeping, right? Yeah, like, know, life hacks, should, you know, make a list to be more organized, should do, you know, that's, that's helpful. And I think like, you know, it's funny, like, I, I've,
Paul Fattinger (20:10)
If you if you don't forget shit, you live with you somehow manage you manage so that's that that's kind of the thing, you know, an example, a story that.
Absolutely. Yeah, It's better to make do it like not. Yeah.
Marc Winter (20:39)
feel like when you hone in on your power, you're expressing one of the best versions of yourself. You are tapping into what you're naturally good at. are either, in your sense, if you're reading people, I think you feel incredible joy doing that. And for some who have, or systems that...
the way you figure out problems and how to figure out problems, And connect those dots, it's, you become a force to be reckoned with.
Paul Fattinger (21:10)
It's become a force to be reckoned with.
Marc Winter (21:15)
Mm-hmm. Sure. Or you're not seen.
Paul Fattinger (21:21)
Or you're not seen.
Marc Winter (21:23)
And that's a huge one, right? you know, well, that's another bit.
Paul Fattinger (21:31)
That's another bit.
No, but I think, sorry to interrupt you, but that's kind of like a very good answer from you why it is important to know what is your superpower. Because you better do something that is connected to this. It's going to make you happier, it's going to make you more successful. We're going to talk about success maybe tonight. ⁓ And so that's that. So the next question is, how do you actually find out?
Marc Winter (21:37)
and that's very complicated. I think it's over.
That's right. That's Yeah,
Yeah, if you don't have a series of exercises, of course. I mean, first of all, let me ask you this. The three qualities I cited about you.
Paul Fattinger (21:58)
Unless, especially if you don't find Max cards.
Marc Winter (22:11)
Let's pretend for a moment that those are the actual ones. There might be others, but just for now, for the sake of argument. Did you know as being a student growing up that you could feel that you were better at something than something else?
Paul Fattinger (22:26)
Yes, but it's none of the things that you described. I just had a very easy time in school. I was just very... ⁓ Yeah, brain retained information very well. Very easily without doing much. ⁓
Marc Winter (22:37)
because they're just a smart motherfucker, right? But. Yeah. That's why we used to call it the Terminator, right? I mean, just. There's a big hard drive in there, you know?
Paul Fattinger (22:52)
It gets a bit sketchy with nights like yesterday. But yeah,
Marc Winter (22:56)
Okay, but I mean.
Paul Fattinger (22:57)
I knew that was something that I could rely on. And I relied on it as a lazy motherfucker as I am. I did 100 % rely on that.
Marc Winter (23:02)
I didn't know how to speak Latin.
right. So you knew that like there was a there was a already a skill, right? And then it just developed and manifests, you know, I don't think so that begs the question. I mean, the other ones like passion and, you know, and grit that I cited, maybe do you discover those later on in life? Right. I don't think you. You know, I'm not going do it. I think it's in a way. Right.
Paul Fattinger (23:07)
there was already a skill, right? And then it just developed and manifested. don't think so. That begs the question. mean, the other.
You don't wake up one morning and know them. I don't think especially, I'm not sure you even as a student, was so aware of
those because as I said before, those are the things you just grew up with and they're always like that. I think you realize much later in life.
Marc Winter (23:32)
Yeah.
I think so. Here's my theory, right? I agree. But I'll bring this back to some of the superhero stories that we, ⁓ and that I led with. You know, like, it's like those origin stories, you know, like in Spider-Man or something else like that. Like, you're put in a situation and then suddenly, like, you show up and, holy shit, I did that?
Paul Fattinger (24:02)
point yeah yeah yeah it's diamonds are made under pressure as a consulting yeah stupid yeah it's no it's like that's that's what you that's what you hear seriously that's what you hear when it's 2 30 in the morning and the guy throws back the slide tag as I do it again and you say fuck you and he's like diamonds are made under pressure yeah
Marc Winter (24:03)
You know, and then you realize, ⁓ well, yeah, it's, know, it may, is there, my God. Who made that? We should drag them up and.
Really? my
god. You can only imagine how many tears were burst ⁓ upon hearing that. Okay. You badass. Yeah, exactly. Okay. So, that's what you discovered. Great. Exactly.
Paul Fattinger (24:35)
I went to sleep, but I woke up at five to do it. But anyways, yeah, yeah, That's when I discovered grit, I guess. And then quickly
switched though into I have to do something better so I don't have to be so greedy. Anyways.
Marc Winter (24:53)
Well, mean, so but I think we're
where we're landing is is that yes, there's a belief that I think everyone is remarkably good at something, you know, there's a thing you have to find that how you find that is, you know, you're testing your skill set against a wealth of experience, you know, sometimes it happens to you in school, sometimes it happens to you because your boss throws you a horrible slide deck, you're like, okay, I actually have the will and the power to do this, etc. You know, I am
I always felt that I was probably a good writer. love stories. love to stay in the clouds, as you know all too well, probably much to your chagrin sometimes. What do mean? I mean, sorry, just as an aside, I was getting a haircut yesterday and suddenly, my mind was drifting off thinking about a few other different problems.
Paul Fattinger (25:36)
What do mean? No, know exactly what you mean.
Marc Winter (25:50)
This woman, she cuts my hair all the time. She's like, you're there again. Welcome back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's some real time.
Paul Fattinger (25:53)
Really? That's a very insightful hairdresser.
Marc Winter (25:59)
Yeah. Real time feedback. Let's flip it. So let's go a little bit deeper because there's also the remarkable things that you're good at. And then I think there's the shadow sides, you know, the dark side of. That's right. I finally got there. There you go.
Paul Fattinger (26:12)
Lovely, I've been thinking of those all the time now, the last five minutes. Yeah, finally get there. No, was
about to ask you. So, mean, clearly, when you think of your superpowers, what are the shadow sides of them?
Marc Winter (26:23)
What is your biggest challenge the
There are lots. I think, yeah, I'm just saying the cloud, sure. But I actually think like, sometimes I see a thing and enrolling others behind it, right? Usually I'm pretty good at it, but sometimes it's hard to, I get lost in the pursuit of it, you know, first. And I get up and.
Paul Fattinger (26:28)
You just mentioned one actually. ⁓
Marc Winter (26:49)
⁓ it's hard for me to articulate what I'm doing, you know? And I get really frustrated because I want to get to the making, you know, and actually really sharpen it to life, but I actually realize it could be much better bringing other people along for the journey. ⁓ And I think, you know, having what I'll call a beautiful naivete sometimes. ⁓
Paul Fattinger (26:53)
Okay. ⁓
Marc Winter (27:16)
in thinking about ideas or thinking about creative projects, sometimes you can just remove the beautiful and they're just naive. ⁓
Paul Fattinger (27:26)
Yeah, I think the first thing to say about this is that wherever there is light, there shadow, period. And so I think the first thing is about accepting those a little bit. It's great. My mind works in great ways, but sometimes I forget shit. But it saves me writing lists. But some balls are
I'm very good at having 200 balls up in the air, but I have to accept that 15 are going to drop the floor. And the thing is, it's still better than someone who only has three balls up in the air.
Marc Winter (27:51)
Yeah.
True.
Paul Fattinger (27:56)
You know, that's kind of that's gonna that's one thing and the other one with grit I said before for me it's very hard to give up on things and Sometimes it's better to just let go and and especially then when things don't work the way I want it It's a
lot of energy for me to let go takes a lot of energy And it haunts me for years sometimes right? ⁓ And on the systems thinking one, too. I love to solve problems and think about things
Marc Winter (28:12)
Yeah, I've seen that. Mm-hmm. It begins, right. ⁓
Paul Fattinger (28:24)
I am not always, and when I'm done and I have it solved in my head, I'm ready to move on. And that's when the actual work actually starts, because you then have to start talking to people, explaining and so on and so on. And my head's already on
the next problem because that's kind of what it feasts on. So that's the shadow side of it. But I think if you are, or if you're aware of them and you can handle them and play with them and you understand, 15 balls might fall, but...
These are the 15 that shouldn't fall and those 15 are right up somewhere and the rest will sort of solve itself out. So you can hedge or against them when you know, but I think it's all about knowing and understanding your superpowers and the
Marc Winter (28:56)
Yeah. ⁓
Paul Fattinger (29:10)
other side of your superpowers.
Marc Winter (29:12)
That's a... I agree. And I think, you know, if there's a little bit of advice I think we can give to people who are listening, know, I imagine most of our listeners will probably have some good sense of something they're really good at. But, you know, being aware and talking about kind of the deep, the shadow sides of them are really helpful, you know. And, you know...
Someone also like you know when I have a lot of creative projects like I'll tell you this isn't a side for My own marriage, you know nothing pisses me off more When I'm like, all right, I'm go work on this idea I'm tell my wife this, know, and she's like, oh great. How much time do you need? And I'm like as much fucking time as it takes from this idea to come through and be beautiful, etc Is is it 40 minutes? Yeah, exactly. How many times how much time do I need to be?
Paul Fattinger (29:56)
That's a very German question. ⁓
Marc Winter (30:07)
creative, know, it's like ridiculous. It drives me crazy. And, you know, she knows this obviously I've been joking, joking about it, you know, from time to time. And I try to be more efficient, honestly, once one good thing about it is that, and how I channel my thoughts, I think, and ⁓ there's so many distractions in the world, it's just easy, you know, to which we another kind of podcast, like how to stay focused. But I, we used to talk about it, you know,
And it's really helpful to, and she knows to let me fly when I need to fly and also ⁓ be reigned in a little bit when I'm staying in the darkness.
Paul Fattinger (30:46)
we ready to close this down soon? think we are. It's just two thoughts that I still want to share. The first one is, ⁓ you know, now we're sitting here and we're all cool and like, this is my superpower and this is your superpower, right? So, ⁓ I mean, I didn't know for a while what my superpowers are and I don't think about them often enough. That's number one. Plus, don't stress about it when you don't know what your superpower is. You know, it's like, fuck, you know, I need to know my superpower. Well, yeah, it'd be better. you, you know, I think like,
Marc Winter (30:47)
Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking about that.
Paul Fattinger (31:16)
life
will make you find out. And in order to do so really, know, Ada, obviously there's coachings and there's things, you know, where you can do this. But the best thing is what we just did here is when you ask a very good friend that knows you also a little bit in a professional context. And I've done this with other friends as well, right? And when I tell them, mostly in times when they are struggling or questioning themselves and I'm like, Hey man, you are like,
Marc Winter (31:32)
Yes, yes.
Paul Fattinger (31:45)
the best, you you're the most relatable person that I know, like another friend of mine. when he is like, I would love to work and everyone
would love to work with you and for you. And then they would go out and be like, yeah, fuck, that's maybe my superpower. So use those, use your friends for this. think that's, that's where you can really discover something and everyone can. And that's just my two cents on this one.
Marc Winter (32:06)
Yeah, cool. Yeah. And,
but it's also worthy. And I think it's a worthy reflection, which is really simple to like think through and ask your friends land on it. And that's it's a clarifying thing. Yeah, it is a cheap quick win. Cool. Yeah. Yes.
Paul Fattinger (32:17)
Yes, it's a cheap quick win actually. It's a cheap quick win. And the third one, sorry, I think still think the joy is a great door.
Because when you think of the things that give you joy and you kind of then go deeper and ask why and why and why and why, I think you also get there is a theory. I don't know if this is corresponding to your cards, but I think joy is a great sign.
Marc Winter (32:34)
and you kind of enter into this work with your heart. And you go to work with your physical heart, since you're going through art, you go through it with style.
Paul Fattinger (32:47)
you know a signal to point you in the right direction
Marc Winter (32:49)
Point to the back here. 100%. Life is too short not to do anything that's joyful anyway. So it's an excellent path of inquiry. I agree. I agree. you for
Paul Fattinger (32:58)
Talking about joy, I tell you, I mean,
this is the terminated and ended of the day or the last 12 hour section. I woke up this morning at four o'clock, you know, with some people, you know, I was in this, I would say shitty hotel, but it was okay. So, and they were talking and you hear the lift door opening and everything. So I hope they go to bed. They were talking for an hour and a half and I was hoping they would probably go at it. At least it's a bit entertaining.
Marc Winter (33:18)
my god. No. Lisa's entertaining.
Paul Fattinger (33:27)
But I mean, literally I could hear them word by word. that was my absolute... I was about to call them out and call reception, but then I felt also bad and I just put something in my ear and couldn't sleep anyways. But these are definitely my 80s of the week.
Marc Winter (33:43)
Mine, you know, I
try not to be political, I mean, I got to say the Donald Trump saying that's not my signature on the Epstein birthday card is one of the funniest. It's hilarious. It's like, that's not mine. Exactly. It only looks like it's exactly how you signed it today. Exactly. That is that is.
Paul Fattinger (33:53)
It's hilarious. It's hilarious. Especially for a guy that signs 150 executive orders a day and loves to be on TV doing that.
Marc Winter (34:09)
He must think we're really, really stupid or it's just, he's, yeah, yeah, that's, that's his, yeah, yeah.
Paul Fattinger (34:12)
That's also his superpower. Just to get over it.
You know, I know, I mean, I hear you. My terminator is the, what's the guitarist's name from yesterday night?
Marc Winter (34:22)
You're stealing mine. Sarah on Crenshaw? Yeah, exactly. Well, that just shows you how good he is.
Paul Fattinger (34:24)
I love we have the same it's so cute.
Man he saw it was it transporter in a different universe. And my mind went somewhere was just beautiful. I mean, I was also a bit tired. It was just really nice.
Marc Winter (34:34)
Yeah, I I think the
Yeah, first of all plug Sarah on Crenshaw. He plays a regular at Tara Blues. Go see him when you're in New York. I think it's the joy of seeing a genius at work, right? And he's a genius. There's no question about it.
Paul Fattinger (34:57)
I mean, thing is, you I you play guitar, you know about music and you always say, no, he's
looping this, he's looping that. It's like, what the fuck are you talking about? I just hear things and see things that are so, you know, so out of this world from that to me, that's a superhero because there is no way ever I could come even to 1 % of this. So, you know what I mean? That's like, that's very clear. Amazing. It was amazing. Thank you again for that.
Marc Winter (35:03)
Yeah. Yeah. All right. It was amazing. was amazing.
Well, with that, we'll close this session. It was delightful chatting with you, my favorite systems thinker. ⁓
Paul Fattinger (35:29)
As always