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Customer onboarding in B2B SaaS is changing fast, but the resources for onboarding teams? Not so much. That's why we're kicking off Onboarding Therapy, a podcast that tackles the real challenges onboarding teams face every day.
think about ultimately customer
success sits under, what we're doing.
Revenue or you're going to sit
under like a chief customer officer,
which is great, or a chief revenue
officer, but either way, it's a revenue
tied umbrella that you are under.
What if that were to go away?
What if it doesn't become a
customer success manager and
becomes a product success manager
Welcome to onboarding therapy.
I'm Kim.
And in this episode, Sharelle and
I are debating whether or not it.
makes sense for customer
success to report into product.
We've both got some pretty strong opinions
on this one, so let's get into it.
Okay.
So on this episode, I have a topic
that I have brought up to you a
little bit Sherelle, but you haven't
really voiced your opinion yet.
And so we wanted to save this discussion
for our onboarding therapy episode, but I
want to preface where my idea came from.
So we have a vendor and I won't say
who it is, but one that, we've been
using for three and a half years and
I spend of all the tools that we use
it's one that I use the most often.
We have gone through, I had no
idea how many CSMs at this company
because I don't really get like an
introduction when we get a new one.
It's just it seems like once a year,
there's like a renewal period that they
are reaching out to me to try to have
a call and make sure I'm seeing value
and their email sequences are rough
and I have done one call with the CSM
and it was not valuable at all for me.
And I felt like I was.
I feel like I probably could have been
helping that CSM with their product.
And I hate to say that I don't
want to sound whatever, but it
was not a valuable call for me.
I wouldn't do it again.
And then last week, a product manager
from that company reached out to me on
LinkedIn and said, I saw a recent LinkedIn
post, I would love to understand more
about your use case for X in our product.
We're actively working
on building this out.
So I would love to schedule a time.
I booked the call really quickly because
I was like, this sounds valuable.
This sounds like they understand
a level of my use case now and
are looking to explore it further.
And my feedback could help
to make this product better.
And I had the call on Monday this
week and I just felt so hurt.
I felt like I felt
excited about the product.
I thought, Oh my gosh, they're actually
like, they're acknowledging that this
part of their product is rough and
they're actively working to build it.
Yeah.
And to make it better.
And I know also that I was
talking to the product person.
So it's not like CSMs maybe say that,
but then how often is their feedback
actually going back to the product
team and actually getting worked
on, whereas I'm like, I'm talking
to the product person right now.
I.
Feel pretty good that my feedback is
actually being heard and is going to be
taken into account when they are building
and improving this part of the product.
And it just got me thinking so
many people have so many opinions
about customer success and what
is their value to an organization?
And should they be selling?
Should they be doing upsells?
Should they be doing expansion
deals or should that be going
to sales and all of this stuff?
I was just thinking, what if we just
rethought through what customer success
is and tied it more closely to the product
and potentially even sit within product
and have it be like a product success.
Kind of department where there is a person
that is talking to customers and actually
has a commitment and maybe their KPIs
are around the product metrics and things
that product cares about rather than this
like expansion renewal play that everyone
is like trying to make CS fit into.
Yeah, I first of all, I actually
agree with you in that on a
number of topics in there.
CS has become a dumping ground
in a lot of organizations.
I think 10, 15 years ago, whenever
the term started to become a thing,
especially in SAS worlds, I think we
were trying to make it new and exciting.
And I think the intent was to make it
focused on the customer experience and the
product and upsells and growing revenue.
Yeah.
And the reality is it has become
a dumping ground for all things.
Some of it is actual customer success.
Some of it's support.
Some of it is, like you said, just taking
feedback, just checking the boxes in a lot
of cases where you're essentially based
on your metrics and performance reviews
being forced to hold these calls or reach
out to customers and say, Hey, I'm just
checking in and ask someone who's been
put in that position in other places.
Here at arrows too, at times I've
put myself into that position.
I actually have to zoom out and
ask myself, why am I doing that?
Am I just doing it because I want
to check the boxes and say, I
reached out to these customers.
Am I really adding value?
We have talked about checking in
versus checking on with customers.
Which, is also a little cliche and
wordplay, but if you're not adding value
to those calls, then you're going to
feel how you feel and how most of us
feel when we reach out to customers.
And if you don't have the autonomy to
actually change any of that or your orgs
get so big that now you're so bloated with
targets and KPIs and just like day to day.
It becomes so hard to add
any value on those calls.
Whereas a product
manager, that's their job.
They don't have customer
calls all day long.
They don't have to have eight
calls today and then deal with
follow ups and notes and emails.
And that's not at all to downplay
the product manager's job.
It's hard in its own sense.
And they can actually take an
hour and talk to you and really
hone in on one bit of the product
and then turn around and fix it.
physically go sit with the engineers
and the leaders on the product side
and say, Hey, this is what Kim said.
I want this to be true, or
I want to build this out.
So it's both, you're actually spot on.
I think it's very accurate
that is how a lot of CS orgs,
unfortunately now are running.
And I don't think it's fully their fault.
And I don't know if, actually, no, I
know it's not the individual CSM's fault.
And I don't think often they are, and
this is probably also going to be a
little harsh, but they're not incentivized
to care beyond that check in call.
I did my job.
I, and we see this often too.
You, I think you talked about this on
a post recently where when, whenever
stuff hits the fan, I don't know if we
can cuss on this podcast or not, but
whenever shit hits the fan, the reaction
tends to be did you get on a call with
them or if a customer cancels, when was
the last time you checked in with them?
When you've also told me as a leader
before, don't waste time just checking in
with customers, so I do think CS folks get
put in kind of this weird spot where they
don't actually have enough autonomy or a
say in the mat to your a bit on feedback.
I've certainly felt this too, of
like, how many times am I going to
share the same bit of feedback with
product before feeling like I'm just,
Talking into a void the places where
I've seen it be successful is where
I've actually had a, I don't know
about reporting into the product.
That's an interesting idea.
I love the idea of having a CS product
manager or like a true product manager
focused on customer success, but not
just focused on customer success.
Sitting in on calls, being in those
meetings, being a business partner to
those leaders of CS teams and onboarding
managers, that cohesiveness, I think,
can work and can get you some traction.
When I hear reporting into product,
I instantly cringe and I actually
love being a like pseudo product
manager and collecting feedback.
But I, this is probably a
hot take from the CS side.
It's I don't think a product manager is
going to care or a product leader is going
to care about my revenue targets or about
my customer calls or understand the pains
I'm going through on that day to day.
And the reason we're having this
conversation is actually that whole thing.
This exists everywhere.
There is always this weird divide
between product teams and everyone else.
Yeah, I'll pause there.
Cause that's my initial
thoughts and reactions.
So I both agree with you
on everything you said.
And I feel like something definitely
has to change, but I don't know if it's.
I definitely don't think an
entire CS organization should
report into a product leader.
Yeah, of it might, and there
should be far better collaboration
than we see in a lot of places.
But think about it like a
I don't know this either.
And I, I like really have not
thought it through it like fully.
It's like a new, freshly
thought out thing in my brain.
And there is a lot more that has
to go into this, but think about
like ultimately customer success
sits under, what we're doing.
Revenue or like you're going to sit
under like a chief customer officer,
which is great, or like a chief revenue
officer, but either way, it's a revenue
tied umbrella that you are under.
What if that were to go away?
What if it doesn't become a customer
success manager and becomes a like product
success manager and you have different
targets and maybe you are not tied to.
There's probably still going to be some
kind of thing about upsells and expansion
because that's just like a piece of it.
And I think the, I do want to reiterate,
like I shared a post about this on
LinkedIn and I was so worried to offend
customer success managers because
I love customer success managers.
I haven't been directly a CSM, but
I was an onboarding manager before.
I have a lot of respect for CSMs.
I think there's some of the best
people who go into those roles.
So I don't want to offend anyone.
I do believe that this is what.
Every customer success manager
actually wants their role to be.
I think there's a big difference between
early stage companies with customer
success managers who you are still so
much in learning mode that there has to
be a tight feedback loop with product.
So I think that is a
kind of separate thing.
And I actually do value some of my
customer success managers from the
vendor side who are at early stage
companies where I can tell they are
like wanting my feedback to learn.
And are actually taking
that feedback back.
I think the issue becomes when you
get to a larger scaling company, and
then it just becomes about KPIs around
calling and touch points, and that's
where the difference between, let's
say CSM doing a 30 minute call versus a
product manager doing a 30 minute call,
the outcomes that they are expecting.
And then the work that they are doing
after those calls is completely different.
The CSM at a larger company,
again, where they're, they
have strict KPIs and are less.
Maybe like less tied to the strategy,
I feel like they do a call with a
customer and then their KPI is to
like complete that call, log it in
the CRM, send a like kind of templated
follow up email, and maybe unlikely I
would guess, but maybe they'll submit
some feedback to some kind of channel
that gets a hundred messages a day.
And no one's really looking at.
Whereas meeting with a product
manager, they're coming out
of that call and they are.
They are structuring that call in
a way where they are intentionally
asking me the right types of
questions to get more information.
And then their job after that call is to
compile what I told them, how that fits
with what they're trying to build and
relay that information in a way that the
rest of the product org can understand.
And then also I just got an email
yesterday about a call I had with a PM at
the same company for a different kind of
product there from a couple months ago.
And they're like, we're actually rolling
out a beta of what we talked about before.
Do you want to be an early beta customer?
And I'm like, that is also me.
That is adding value to me as a
customer where I feel special.
I feel like, oh my gosh, my feedback.
Was heard, they logged it in a way
that they know that this is my use
case and I can be an early beta tester.
And now I just feel so much more
ownership over that product.
As a customer, I am just like
getting so much more value or
feeling a perception of value.
Because I feel heard and I feel
like they're building for me
versus I'm never going to feel
that on a customer success call.
And I hate to say that I love CSMs.
I just feel like we've just gone
so far in the wrong direction
with this, the CSM role.
And I feel like it's just
it's lost the plot or not.
In a good space anymore.
And I feel like the kind of like tips that
people are giving to make customer success
better are like band aids and they're not
like fixing what is the actual thing that
customer success managers should be doing?
What is the actual purpose of the role?
And that's where I'm like, I almost
just feel like reframing it in such a
radical way of what would it look like?
To have customer success sit under
product is like a way to think about it.
Cause I feel like we're all just
trying to do just do this or
have this kind of a meeting or
send this kind of email instead.
And it's I feel like we need
to rethink the whole thing.
Yeah.
Again, I agree.
I don't, I know what post
you're talking about.
I was.
Not offended in the slightest, I
hope other CSMs weren't offended
because I don't think you're targeting
individuals with that commentary.
It's actually your experience
and it's very valid.
I have, I think, I've, I have, we
have vendors that now I have their
CEO and their chief product officer is
emailing me and asking for feedback.
And I give the feedback and it's
great and I feel heard and as I'm
doing it, I'm thinking to myself,
why aren't you empowering the
people who I should be working with?
Why are you as the CEO of this
company as a last resort reaching
out to me and asking me to do X, Y,
Z or share thoughts on something?
And yes, I feel heard, but also is
that because I have a senior title
would you do that if I was just
the CSM or would you actually reach
out to me and ask me for my input?
And I think there's so much opportunity
internally to make that, to empower
those people, to empower CSMs to have
some more of those conversations.
And I 100 percent agree with you in that
customer success at larger companies.
It almost feels like
selfish business success.
Are you really making the customer
successful or are you just trying to
upgrade me into some crap that I don't
need to make me expand my product, or
my usage or my spend ultimately with
you, you're trying to make more revenue.
Let's call it what it is.
That's what customer success has become.
You're just trying to push
revenue on the business by having,
Me either upgrade or expand.
But if all you're doing, like your
experience is reaching out at my 11th
month mark every year and saying,
Hey, it's time for your renewal.
Let's do a quick check in.
And then I give you a bunch of feedback
and then I don't hear from you again.
Yeah you're silently churning me
and, or just pissing me off and
wanting me to talk to other people.
And it probably can't feel good
for that team internally either.
Then when a product manager has to
jump in and be like I talked to Kim
and I got X, Y, Z out of her and now
we're going to go build this thing.
And I almost, I can almost say
this with a guarantee that CSM
has probably shared that feedback
multiple times and hasn't been heard.
And now is I don't know what to do.
I'm just doing my job.
I'm just checking in and I'm
checked out a little bit.
In this example, there's no this is
the thing is in this example, it was
a deep product knowledge situation.
And I just hate to say it, but
I am confident the CSM would not
have even been able to start that
conversation with me about that.
That because it's so deep, it's it's
so deep, like even for, like for me.
And then another piece of this
is a feature that we don't
pay for yet for this tool.
So the product management call
could potentially lead to an upsell.
I don't think it will for us necessarily,
but like it could lead into an upsell
or expansion for us too, just because
they're talking about hey, it seems
like you might be a fit for this.
This is what we're thinking about.
How do you think about this kind of thing?
And then we could get into a
beta and all of this stuff.
So it is still leading potentially to the
same kind of outcome, but I just know the
CSM would not have been able to touch.
That feature, like they would
have never brought it up.
It's it.
That's a really good point.
I think about this.
So at arrows, we get told all
the time, you all provided a
ton of value on these calls.
Thank you for spending the time with us.
Like I get told that directly
by our customers all the time
when I'm on calls with them.
Part of that I think is because
I use our product daily.
So the stuff they're
working on and running into.
Not only have I seen, I've already
done and used and worked on and sat
with our product team and discussed it.
And part of that is being a small team.
And yes, I have that advantage.
Part of that is like people like you
and me, our background is in customer
onboarding and customer success.
And we know the general topic really well.
Then we use the software that we
build every day in our day to day.
We use HubSpot obviously,
which our customers are using.
So we understand the depth
of the product knowledge.
And actually more often than not, we
are genuinely teaching them things and
going really deep into and the reactions
are like, Oh, I didn't know you could
do that or wow, that's really advanced.
And that's really cool.
Whereas even myself at past
jobs I've worked at, I wasn't
using those products daily.
I understood I spent the time and
took the onus on myself to really go
deep and learn as much as I could.
But like in a previous role, I wasn't a
social media manager, so I wasn't using
our social media software to manage
my social media businesses every day.
So I could only go so deep.
And when someone started talking
about advanced analytics or advanced
social listening, I'd be like I know
enough about the feature to guide you.
And this is becoming one of those calls
you're talking about where I don't
know really how to help with this.
Yeah.
So that is a symptom of growing
big and having more features
and not enabling teams.
And if you're just a cog in this big
wheel of, Customer success at a big
company, and you're just expected to
do X number of calls and X number of
check ins and X number of activities
as we like to call them in the CRM.
And if those activities, sure, those
activities could lead to growth
potentially and renewal and expansion,
but oftentimes they don't because we're
not going deep enough into that topic.
So I think the, I think product teams tend
to keep customer success teams in a silo.
And they don't always keep
them involved in decisions.
Oftentimes the feature or the thing
is already built and then they're
asking those teams to go talk
about it or share that information
with their clients or customers.
If you don't feel heard the first time you
might try again, the second time you might
try again, the third time you're probably
starting to get annoyed with sharing
the same thing over and over again.
So I think part of the challenge is.
Yes, the extreme end is have
CS orgs living under a product
org and play with that of it.
I think there are steps along the way
that can probably help like I took a
lot of notes on this after I saw your
post the other day, breaking down some
of those silos between product teams and
candidly other, every other department
when at my previous company, I sprout
social part of why it worked so was we
actually had what we called an onboarding
guild, but really it was a collection
of leaders from every department.
And we got together every two weeks with a
monthly check in with our CRO and our CMO.
To discuss what are we seeing?
What are the problems?
What are some new features
we want to dive in on?
And the reason it worked so
was it was a collective effort.
Like we were actually
tackling it together.
We were picking a single
feature and everyone in
marketing was talking about it.
Everyone in product was
trying to hear feedback on it.
Everyone on sales and success and support
were bringing it up in conversations.
Product was in real time, taking that
feedback and designing it and improving
it, and like it worked really well.
So although none of us were reporting
into each other, there were such
strong dotted lines to everybody.
Like my role sat in the and this is
also part of it was I got to be in
a CS ops role and sit between all of
these departments and have an input and
have say, and I was doing onboarding.
I knew the product really well.
I was a direct business partner to
the onboarding teams, the CS teams.
And one thing you said earlier that
resonated with me is They actually
are speaking different languages.
Like it is hard for a CS person
to translate what a product person
thinks and vice versa, because
they genuinely think differently.
That is such a gap and
opportunity in businesses.
And that doesn't mean like we ha I don't
need to know engineering or coding, but
I need to know how to talk to you to
make sense of what this feature is or
what the pain is or what the bug is.
And one thing I've been trained on
and learned here at arrows to stop
going to product teams with solutions.
Go to them with the problem, explain
what the customer is feeling and what
the problem is and what the pain is, and
let them actually solution the feature.
That's where they get
a big kick out of it.
And to your point, if all I'm doing
is checking the boxes and getting on
a call with you and just taking your
feedback and not being able to then
go translate that CSM is screwed.
They're never going to be able to
translate that information over there.
You're going to feel
absolutely frustrated.
You're going to get on a call with
a product manager who speaks the
lingo and understands what you're
actually saying and or can translate
what you're saying back into a
physical engineering and product team.
And that's why you feel heard and that's
why you see those instant results.
And I think it's annoying that it
took you posting on LinkedIn for this
person to reach out and feel like, it
feels like you're at your wit's end
and frustrated and annoyed, rightfully
because you feel like you've dealt
with the same thing for the last
three years and nothing's changed.
And it's this last cry for
help and someone reaches out
and is hey, let me help Kim.
And it's like, why didn't we
empower that person along the way?
I think that's an actually, that's
actually an interesting point is
the post was like one of my LinkedIn
posts about like our tech stack.
And I actually don't know how it was
related to this feature, but it wasn't
like me complaining about this tool.
I have plenty of gripes about this
tool, but it's generally a tool I love.
And I will never churn,
like I will never churn.
Like I will use this tool
through the end of my life.
I'm not a churn risk.
I wish I could say what it is.
Don't.
Come at me about being a turn risk.
I'm not, but they saw something
and I don't even know what it was.
Cause I didn't really
read the whole message.
I was basically like, Oh, APM from
this tool wants to talk to me about
this feature that I care about.
I don't even care why you're reaching out.
Like I, I will do that.
And I also just I think I
have a, I like product teams.
I like product.
I was fortunate enough as a onboarding
manager to be able to work very
closely with our product team at
the last company I worked at too.
And I loved that.
So I like.
Being a part of those kinds
of conversations and sharing
feedback and feeling like I'm
contributing in that kind of a way.
So I think that's also like a personality
thing, whereas there's probably a lot of
people who not have jumped at that either.
But I think to your earlier point too,
I think the reason that you are able
to add so much value to our customers
and on the calls at arrows is because
onboarding, if you were just like a
person who has never done onboarding
before and you didn't get it, I think
it would be very different and a big
thing that a few people in the comments
on my LinkedIn post said was like, Okay.
Customer success managers that add a ton
of value are people who have done the
job of the people they're talking to.
So like my last company was in ed tech.
And so we actually had someone who was
a previous customer who then joined
the sales team and we basically copied.
The way that she talked to our prospects
and customers, because she had a talk
track, cause she was like, I had a
life where I didn't use this tool.
And then I use this tool
and this is what changed.
And we didn't have that knowledge
or empathy to understand, like we
could make it up and approximate, but
hearing from an actual person who.
Knew that pain and knew what our
prospects and customers were feeling.
We literally stole her talk track because
we're like used it because it worked
and it showed empathy for our customers.
And so I think, and I was talking to
someone earlier this week who is selling
a SAS product to physical therapists
and she was a physical therapist
and her, she's all self conscious.
Cause she's I don't know.
I don't know, like the
tech part of my job.
And I'm like, that doesn't matter
that you can learn that so easily.
What you can't learn is what it's
like to be a physical therapist and
the struggles you're dealing with
every day and booking appointments
with your clients and following up
and adding your clinician notes.
Like those types of things are
things that you will never know.
If you don't have that experience.
And I think those kinds of CSMs
that can really truly empathize and
understand and actually like help add
value to the customers day to day with
the product, but I don't know, it's
like a, it's like a different level.
Like I almost feel like it's two different
roles and maybe there is still a lane
for CSMs that is more like helping, this
is what we were talking about earlier
too, but like helping with how to apply
this to your business and your life
versus someone who's collecting more
detailed in the weeds kind of product
feedback, and then relaying that to
the product team in the right way.
Yeah, I 100 percent agree.
I also, you touched on
what comes to me as titles.
I've done this at Eros where
I've changed my signature to just
say customer success manager.
And I don't often get the most engagement.
So at one, I do think that the
whole term CSM is outplayed.
And it's it's the equivalent of getting
a cold email in some cases where it's
I don't want to talk to Sherelle.
I know he's going to sell me some stuff.
I, yeah, like I'm over it.
I'm using your product, leave me alone
or I'm going to renew if I need it.
Or it's, it is, I handled
them the same way in my inbox.
An outreach from a CSM
versus a cold email.
Yeah, I agree.
And I've also seen the flip side
of that when I'll use my head
of customer experience title.
And I've seen customers respond,
especially leaders from other businesses
and forward it to other people on
their team and say, Hey, check out
how cool this is, this company's head
of customer experience is responding
to us directly about this topic.
And I just laugh because I'm like, it's
still me, the person behind the scenes.
I believe that, but unfortunately,
titles convey a certain type of feeling
for the receiver to your example, like
the product manager title is probably
what lured you in a little bit in that.
Oh, yeah, I'm actually having a
frustration with the product and or
the usage and or the old experience
with the CSM and that drew you in.
And it so happened that it was a good
product manager who took your advice and,
went and hopefully did something with it.
But yeah, the CS title has been outplayed.
Some title is now associated with,
in most cases, actually, I think it's
associated with not knowing what that
role even plays in that business.
What am I going to get from this call?
Is it going to be strategic?
Is it going to be value add?
Is it going to be just
like a check in call?
And part of that, again, is to your
point earlier, some of these businesses
get so big and I've been in worlds
where a CSM manager is managing a book
of 800 customers, that's good luck.
There is no chance on earth.
You're going to add any
value to any of those things.
You're literally you're an overpaid
automated marketing campaign.
Basically at that point, just build
automated marketing campaigns and
fire off emails and hope for the best.
And then you have, and obviously this
depends on revenue and spend, and
we're not naive to that businesses
will have strategic CSMs who do in
person calls and hands on stuff.
And, I don't know, I also struggle
with that a bit because, not with that
concept, but there's so much value to
those smaller spend customers where
you could grow them and could add
value and could get them to expand.
And the reality is we don't because
we're just checking in and checking
our own selfish boxes internally.
That's also probably why we're seeing
higher and higher turnover in CS
roles more recently and, or them being
viewed as cost centers and line items.
And, churn happens and inevitably we
have to blame the customer success team.
And.
And I know that's not true either,
but that's what it feels like.
And then you're missing your targets.
You're missing your KPIs.
You're continuing to
add less and less value.
Cause now you're coming at it from a
place of, I have to hit my targets.
I have to hit my numbers.
I don't actually know how to help this
customer, but my boss said, Hey, make
these calls this week or send these emails
this week and it's tough out there, man.
It's tough for CSMs.
Okay.
And this is just another, I.
Want to just reiterate before I say this
again, I love CSMs generally great people.
And there's this other tool
that we're using that I had.
It's like a message situation, but I
had a call with the CSM and I was like,
Hey, is this specific feature coming?
Because if it's not the tool.
Becomes completely invaluable for us.
And and just to be honest, like we won't
renew if this feature isn't coming.
And the CSM said, yeah, it's coming.
We're working on it.
And in my, I probably maybe misunderstood
or misinterpreted this, but in my
mind, I was like, Oh, that's like
coming in the next few months.
And then again, on a LinkedIn post, and
this is another thing is I'm getting
better support from these companies.
On LinkedIn versus emailing my direct rep.
Public shaming really works.
I'm not even shaming anyone.
I'm like, literally haven't said anything.
People are just like coming in my
DMs, talking to me about their tools.
And I'm like, Hey, by the
way, since I have you, do you
know if this thing is coming?
And then a director of sales from
that same company reached out and he
was like, Oh no, that is not coming.
Like I've been really like on our
product team to work on that, but it's
really unlikely to get prioritized.
And I'm like okay.
So this is a huge contract for us.
We were about to renew because I
was told that this was coming and
it literally offers no value for us.
We will not renew.
And it doesn't make sense for us to
pay for this tool if that doesn't come.
And now I have two different people,
sales and then my customer success
manager, who's amazing and I really
but they're getting different answers
and I am just sitting here thinking,
can I talk to someone from product who
can actually tell me what's happening
here because you both are like going to
different people and getting different
answers and now I'm stuck in the middle.
And I have no confidence that
this is going to get built.
And it's a significant cost for us.
And without that feature, it
would be a big mistake for us
to renew if we didn't have that.
Like it would be a big blow
and I can't get an answer.
We're going to save this for
another call, but I feel like
this is going to be a part two.
We're in the expectation setting
as a whole different topic
that we can get into online.
Some CS teams.
No, I, what comes to mind for me is like
I have the autonomy at arrows and the
visibility into product to tell customers
confidently, no, we're not building
that or no, we are like, yes, I under,
yes, I hear you and no, it's not coming.
I understand our roadmap.
I understand our priorities.
I understand.
And that's because I have visibility
into it and access into it.
And I, I have a weekly call
with our head of product.
And so I understand what is happening.
And have the confidence to tell a
customer, no, that's not going to happen.
Knowing that it might potentially cause
some churn or cause some reaction.
And.
When I've been in more junior roles
or even like senior CS roles, even if
I know that's the answer, sometimes
I've essentially lied and have
said, yes, we're working on that.
Or yes, that's coming because I don't
want to lose my individual bonus.
I don't want to take a hit
on my individual metrics.
Yeah.
It's, yeah, it's a tough place to
be like a tough spot to be stuck in.
So I both.
Like you said, I, I don't it's
not the individuals in those
roles that are the problem.
It's the structure and the systems
in place for those CS teams to not
be able to be successful or not be
able to really serve as customers.
And then it becomes a big number game too.
Okay, we lost Kim, but maybe we got 10
other customers to expand, whatever.
We'll take our losses there.
In this case, would you rather, not renew?
No.
Or would you rather that I renew and then
I'm angry and telling everyone how you
actually screwed us over and lied to us.
And now, cause we're paying, it's
an annual contract and it's a, it's
one of our more expensive tools.
And so I can't get a straight
answer from anyone about this,
which one is worse right now.
I'm just like completely frustrated.
In fact, it's on.
I have my day open for getting a
bunch of these kinds of tasks done.
And one of my tasks is figure
out what to do with this.
Like I have to like, who do I need
to talk to, to figure this out when
this should be like a fairly easy yes,
we were doing this or no, we're not.
And then I can make that decision.
But right now I have to go figure
out who I can even talk to, to get
a straight answer about this tool.
And then either way, I'm not
going to be happy because I
don't know what's happening.
And now I'm annoyed and it's taken.
A month to get nothing
basically from them.
And our rule is coming up in a month.
And now that person's on the defense,
they're going to try to make you happy.
The reality is they can't, it's, they're
not going to build that feature in a month
or turn it on or, and that's, what's tough
is like this, it's not the CSM system.
at all, but it's they will
be the one who gets docked.
If we don't renew, we will not renew
because of one singular feature that
was like semi promised to us and
now potentially will not happen.
And it's just I don't know.
The whole thing is just tough and.
I don't know but those are the things
those are the scenarios that CSMs are
put in all the time that make people not
trust them or not not trust them, but
not want to even engage and to try and
go around them and see if there's anyone
else they can talk to, because they don't
even have the answer to what's going on.
This stuff.
Yeah, no, you're right.
It's not their fault and it is
their fault at the end of the day.
It's not their fault and
it lands on their plate.
And
to give some maybe pointers or tangible
things that people can go do in that build
better communication between CSM product.
If, sure, don't go change
reporting lines tomorrow, but at
least build some sort of Yeah.
Place to have those conversations.
Ask product teams how they
want to receive feedback.
That's another problem I see in CS
all the time is I shared the feedback
10 times, but did you actually
ask how they want to receive it?
Did you share it in the right way?
Was it in the right?
Tool.
Was it in the right time?
Are you just pestering something that you
should have known is already not coming
or we're not building or not a priority.
And again, that's probably
a communication gap.
Maybe start with a hybrid role
of this is a CSM halftime and a.
Pseudo associate product
manager, halftime type of thing.
Like start somewhere with that
and then try to build on that.
Ask how the product team actually
wants to hear about the feedback.
Get them on calls.
I can't preach this enough.
Get your product leaders on calls,
onboarding calls, cancellation calls,
renewal calls, all those check in calls,
like actually bring them into the fold.
So instead of you having to deal
with the product manager directly,
As a CSM, go ask your product team.
Hey, can one of you jump on this call
with me so that I can still maintain
some of this relationship with Kim, but
also make her feel really heard and that
I am actually bringing someone from the
product side into this conversation.
And it works like we see this, customers
reach out to us proactively and ask for
time to talk to us, which means they
see so much value that they're willing
to go out of their way and talk to us.
So there is a desire there.
It's just, it's bandwidth.
It is volumes of the books of business.
It is obviously contingent on
revenue and business health.
You can't have, you can't just go hire
a million CSMs and have them talk to
everybody every day, all the time.
So there's gotta be some scalable
components in there, but also as
CS orgs, look at your metrics, like
really analyze how you're adding
value to calls, because if you're just
forcing your CS teams to do check in
calls and activities, You're failing.
It's a recipe for failure.
There has to be value in there.
We did a campaign the other day where
you and I have been playing with command
centers and some new tooling that we
have in HubSpot and Daniel, our CEO
recommended the subject line to me and
it worked really well, which was, Can I
show you something that will work for you?
And I had everybody respond.
It was a very basic email.
Can I show you something
that I think will help you?
A quick image of what that thing
was, a quick blurb on why it's
going to help you in your business.
And my inbox was blowing up with
requests to talk about it and
followups and people geeking out on
the onboarding command center thing
that we're setting up for folks because
it actually adds value to their day.
It's not a random checkpoint because
you feel like you should be doing
a checkpoint, but it actually, it
solves the same, except it's actually
like way more valuable, but it
solves the same Hey, we need to like,
make sure this customer is doing.
Okay.
Whatever.
It gives you a little bit of
insight, but you're actually.
Figuring out a way to add very tangible
value to a customer very quickly.
Yeah, of course.
I'm not going to waste our time on
stuff that isn't valuable either.
These were customers that their usage
isn't as high as we would like it to
be, or they do have renewals coming up.
There's very much a baked in strategy
into that, but the message is, Hey, I
have something for you that you're going
to use and make it about them, make it
about their needs and about their goals.
And we all have selfish goals.
Of course we're not, no
one's naive to that fact.
Like we have businesses to run and revenue
to generate and accounts to keep around.
That's what we should be
doing in customer success.
We're trying to make customers successful.
So I think that has been lost in all
of this is we're no longer trying
to make, in these scenarios we're
talking about, we're no longer
trying to make customers successful.
We're just.
Doing the day job.
Like you are, it's like theoretically
you are, but then it's like the
way that you're doing it is lost
in some playbook of someone has
determined this is the way to do it.
That's yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
Theoretically you think you
are, but you're actually not.
And if you're not stopping to figure that
out or fix that's why we're here today.
It's we think we're adding value,
but the customer doesn't feel that.
But we're not changing anything.
We're just firing off more
emails and another check in.
And now you're in a sequence
where I'm completely hands off.
And it's that's.
Not how it works and
test in small batches.
That's the other feedback I have.
If you're going to do something like this,
like the thing we just talked about, I
didn't send it to hundreds of customers.
I started with 20.
Saw that something worked there,
expanded it to a little bit bigger.
Saw that something worked there.
Then I went to marketing and asked,
Hey, can you help me automate some
of this or push a campaign out?
Saw that worked.
Now let's go to sales.
Okay.
Let's talk about this feature
in sales every time, because
it feels like a huge value.
And.
And then to product, right?
Hey, these things you two
built are really powerful.
These CRM cards are working.
People are excited about them.
And when product sees usage on
stuff, that's when they get excited.
Because engineers like to build
stuff that their customers use.
That's just fact.
So when you can go to them and say,
Hey, by the way, I know I've been giving
you feedback for the last three months
about everything that's not working.
And here's this thing
that's working really well.
This little bit needs adjustment,
or this little bit needs fixing.
That excites them.
The crap out of engineering teams, and
then they want to lean in and learn.
So Bill foster an environment
where you can do some of that
and build on that momentum.
And if you have the bandwidth and
can afford it, I actually would
highly recommend some sort of CS
ops person or product manager.
That's truly focused
on customer experience.
Like the bigger holistic life cycle of
how customers are moving through the
life cycle and all those touch points.
Yeah, definitely agree.
I feel like this one can be
like an ongoing discussion.
Cause I feel like there's a lot here and
I wonder if there are probably some other
people who might have some opinions or I
think that there are some companies out
there who are actively making sure their
customer success teams are, I know there
are, but have got it nailed down the like
customer success through product Yeah.
Yeah.
Like we generalized a lot here.
There's obviously a lot of great customer
success teams out there doing great stuff.
And I know there are like a lot
of good customer success teams and
are they doing the right things?
I think like I would challenge any
customer success team to actually figure
out if they're doing the right activities.
Like I, I just feel like we've really
lost the pot a lot with customer success
and like they're really wonderful people
and have the absolute best intentions.
And I would challenge.
Everyone to look at what the activities
are, they're doing, and if they're
actually adding value for their customers
and and if they're actually adding
value to their product teams are they,
are you actually giving your product
teams the feedback that you want?
But I do think there are like bigger
companies that have CS, not necessarily
within product, but like much, much
more closely tied to product than
I think we typically hear about.
And I think it would be interesting to.
Learn how people have thought about
that, where customers, like what
customer successes, APIs are in
those instances and how that shifts.
Around.
So maybe we have another one in
the future where we talk about
that a little bit more deeply.
Love that.
I also wanted to get some
product people on this call.
I know, yeah.
On one of our next ones.
Yeah, let's hear what they have to say.
What is your lens from the product side?
Dealing with customer success team?
Yeah.
Oh gosh.
Interaction works.
That one's actually gonna be a battle.
. I love it.
But it like, without
that healthy dialogue.
We're not solving any of this.
So whether it's our own product
team, I think we should get involved
because I do think we have a good
example of how, and we have our
own challenges and frustrations.
I don't want anyone out there
listening to this thinking like
we're perfect and everything works.
No, we all, we have our own gripes
with marketing and sales and
success and onboarding and product.
That's all true here too.
And we talk a lot and we have
a lot of dialogue and we try to
share a lot of feedback and hear
each other's side of the story.
I think one, it would be nice
to have that example pulled
in and maybe a bigger company.
I can, we can both reach out to folks
we've worked with and if anyone's
listening to this and wants to
jump on from the product side we'd
love to have you and talk through
your experience trying to interact
with customers, trying to interact
with your customer success teams.
Cause I think that's what ultimately
this is all about is trying to
actually help people through some
of these challenges and pain points.
Yeah, totally.
Cool.
This was a really long one, but
I think we've both had a lot to
say and yeah, we'll keep it going.
Love it.
Thanks.
Bye.
Bye.