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Vinnie Forese, President & CEO of Link-Systems International, on approachable leadership, mentorship, and why empathy beats AI.
The President and CEO of a 25 year education technology company signs every single email the same way: 'Vinnie.' No title, no last name, no signature block, so people assume he is junior staff until they find out he runs the company.
In this Conversations That Count vault episode, David Shaft sits down with Vinnie Forese, President & CEO of Link-Systems International, on what communication and leadership look like from the top: leading by trust instead of micromanaging, working ON the business instead of IN it, why tutoring is empathy and connection that AI cannot replace, and how a growth mindset turns 'I am not good at math' into 'I have not been taught math well yet.' It closes with the story behind the 'Just Vinnie' signature and why staying approachable is a deliberate choice.
Chapters
0:00 Welcome and meet Vinnie Forese
1:27 First generation college students
7:06 A conversation that counted
12:23 Leading by trust, not micromanaging
15:35 The bottleneck boss and the conductor
19:25 Leader versus manager
21:56 Will AI replace tutors?
25:10 Growth mindset and math anxiety
28:42 What AI cannot do
35:10 Empathy and patience over answers
38:22 National and international partnerships
44:17 Why he signs his emails 'Just Vinnie'
Connect with Vinnie Forese
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/vinnieforese
Link-Systems International: link-systems.com
Connect with CTC
Website: ctcpodcast.media
Apple Podcasts: Apple Podcasts
Spotify: Spotify
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/david-shaft
Most professionals spend 80% of their workday communicating — and almost none have a system for getting better at it. Conversations That Count changes that.
Hosted by David Shaft — President's Club Banker at Rocket Mortgage, Dale Carnegie graduate, and Detroit storyteller — CTC delivers real conversations with executives, industry leaders, and everyday professionals who break down the communication skills that actually move careers forward.
New episodes every Tuesday and Thursday. Professional multi-camera video production on YouTube. Full audio on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
What you'll learn:
• Workplace communication: better meetings, tougher feedback, and difficult conversations that don't blow up relationships
• Public speaking and presentations: how to open strong, handle Q&A, and keep any room engaged
• Professional networking: small talk that leads somewhere, LinkedIn outreach that gets replies, follow-up that builds real relationships
• Storytelling: how to tell your story in 60 seconds and communicate with impact in any room
• Leadership communication: negotiation, influence, and the Dale Carnegie principles that still work today
CTC is syndicated on the Mission Matters Network and features professionals across automotive, finance, tech, healthcare, and Detroit's growing entrepreneurship scene — because great communication looks different in every industry.
Whether you're a mid-career professional chasing a promotion, a manager who needs to run better meetings, or anyone who wants to communicate with more confidence, credibility, and impact — this show was built for you.
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Stories That Stick. Skills That Scale.
but I just know my name, Vinnie.
I don't, I don't, I don't have a signature block.
I just, all my emails just come as Vinnie.
I don't even put my last name most time.
You know, it's in my...
Hello everyone and welcome to the podcast conversations
that count.
This is your host, David Shaft
with an amazing episode with Vincent
an absolute pioneer in technology.
And of course technological education to be specific.
Vincent, I don't want to introduce too much
without passing it to you.
So introduce yourself to the crowd.
Well, thanks.
I'm Vinnie Forese and for the last 25 years
I've been the president of Link Systems International
which is a online tech-enabled services company
that services higher education in K-12 across the country.
Some international places.
We've got a really long-term focus on student achievement,
student success, student persistence,
you know, things that matter to educators today
about helping students who will have the wherewithal
to continue their education,
find the resources they need to succeed.
And that's sort of what our focus has been.
Going back to the mid-90s when online
but wasn't as obvious to everybody as it is now.
No, I love it.
And something that's really special about what you do.
And I know you've talked about it in the past.
So me personally, I'm a first-generation college graduate.
And in most cases, I wouldn't have had the resources
to be able to complete college.
So I know that's a lot of the students
that you help as well.
So I think that's amazing.
Yeah, it is.
It's something, you know, as we tease people
who join our company, you know,
this is not, we're not in an industry
where we're trying to all flip this company for a billion dollars.
Like you should go work for somebody who's making electric cars
or trying to send people to the moon.
Those have much higher end banning for the buck in terms of,
you're out.
But, you know, the reason most of us do this,
you know, there's certainly good living to be made.
And I certainly don't want to pretend that there's not money
to be made in education.
But, you know, the way teachers and educators,
people who are in tutoring centers, you know,
at the end of the day, you'd have to really love what you do.
And the other way to do that is if you love who you're doing it for.
And that's the students that need help.
And, you know, as I always tell people, I've got three kids,
I have four kids, you know, you know, my kids have two parents,
both with master's degrees.
My children don't need any third-party support.
The elders come right to mom and dad if they need support.
They need help with homework, if they need a resource, you know,
we're blessed to be able to provide that for them.
And that's great.
But there are many, many more students.
So, as you mentioned, people, first generation,
I don't think people always can really appreciate what that means
to be a first-generation college student.
I mean, nobody in your family had ever gone to college.
And if that's the case, what was your incentive?
What was the motivation?
Who, you know, sometimes you have a parent, you know,
my grandfather, you know, Italian immigrant,
he didn't go to college, but he beat it into all his children.
And I don't mean he beat it,
although from stories I've heard, maybe there was a little bit of that.
They were all going to go to college because he knew back then
that that was the year way out of that.
So, a lot of immigrants fix things.
But without that, you know, you don't know, you don't know.
So, how did you just have a curiosity?
How did you, at what point in your life did you decide
that you would go to college?
Like, when did that hit you in your life?
I'm just going to carry this.
Yeah, it was something I told myself I was going to do from,
want to say as early as first grade.
My grandma actually was, yeah, I was raising my grandma,
so she was really big on none of her kids that had finished college,
but she said my grandkids are going to be the one.
I'm the oldest grandkids.
You had that mentor.
You had that one person planting the seed.
All right, my kids, you know, when they were young,
it was, you know, elementary school, middle school, high school
college, there was not a there was not an optional thing in there.
You know, there was, you know, we didn't we didn't suggest to them
that if you didn't want to go to college, you could enlist in the
military, and it was just wasn't a choice.
Like, you're going to do it.
It was the right thing to do.
You know, you could pick your major, you know, you didn't, you know,
but you're going to at least get that after four years, you know,
get a chance to grow up with all, you know, your parents will let you do it.
And so you don't have to go out on your own at 18, which, you know,
could be really tough on people.
So, so a lot of people, you know, we deal with a lot of a lot of
immigrants, people coming into this country.
You know, a lot of people don't realize that you could have a college
degree in the Philippines, but you're not allowed to practice that here
if you don't get through American credentialing.
So a lot of these guys come over here and they'll they'll start over in
community college.
And those have to basically relearn under the American way of doing things.
I mean, a lot of times only they might be a doctor in the Philippines.
They'll never be a doctor here, but for them and their families, the
opportunity was still better because they're thinking about their kids.
They're thinking about their grandkids.
And so just, you know, you have all these diverse people.
You know, if you think of all the all the public school system challenges
that we have, you know, a lot of a lot of the inner city schools and
the rural schools struggle financially.
They don't have the resources to support all the students.
And, you know, you're going to get that college degree.
I mean, that high school diploma, right?
There's there's there's rules and some states are trying to put some tests
around this.
The fact is, you know, the public high schools aren't in the job.
We're trying to get you to stay three or four years.
You know, you're you and you turn 18, you're ready to go.
And so if you decide at that point in life, like, hey, I'm really going to go.
I'm going to try to do something.
You go to your local community college.
Well, first of all, that community college is taxed to the to the to their last resort
of, you know, they're underfunded.
You know, not all schools have the same funding issues, but, you know, if you're
coming in there and, you know, now you have to pass college level math and
college level writing, which almost every degree requires.
You know, they and these are accredited classes, so they don't get to soften the curriculum
like they might be able to do in the public school system.
This is your accreditation relies on this.
And so now how do I help?
And if I have 10 students that are sort of tracking below level or 2500 or 1000.
And so the schools are always looking for resources to partner with.
And that's what we do, especially with our with our online tutoring service.
Well, that's amazing.
So I want to ask more about how the partnerships work.
But before I do that, I have to, I have to ask you one of the most important questions
we ask anyone that comes in the podcast.
So Vincent, your leader of people, I can only imagine there have been times in your life
where you've been led and been mentored.
Is there a time or a conversation that really counted that you had that you'd be
willing to share with us?
So you warned me, you're going to ask me this question.
So I actually spent a little time trying to think about it.
And you know, it's really interesting.
You know, the fact is, you know, I did have, you know, I worked for a few different companies
that were all sort of pioneers and what they did back at the time.
And I didn't really realize it at the time.
There were small businesses.
They were all mentors to me, but not in the way where they pulled me aside from time to time
and then just dropped a knowledge bomb on me.
And I was like, wow, that was great.
Oh, what they did is, you know, even when I was really, really, really young in my early 20s,
they sort of let me into the inner circle.
They let me sit in on meetings that otherwise had no business being in.
They would talk to me about things.
And they really just sort of led by example.
And so I really got to see how people sort of ran their company.
You know, some of that mentoring was things that I promised myself I would never do.
You know, sort of like, you know, when you think of, you know, parenting,
you know, you always promise I'm not going to be anything like my parents were.
And then all of a sudden you're in a room and you hear your father say something out loud.
He was like, whoa, it was my dad just said that.
And you realize it was you, like, oh, I'm just gracious.
Did that just happen?
And so, you know, so I did just one example.
In diet, I had moved out to Los Francisco, Mexico to become a VP of operations for firm.
And it was a company that was that we were about to become really successful.
And I got in right as they were about to blow up.
And, you know, he knew me.
He was a customer at my prior company in Atlanta.
And he wanted me to sort of take over all his operations.
You know, his wife had been doing it for him for a few years.
And, you know, she was, she had little kids.
She didn't really want to be in the office running things in the first place.
And it was just becoming too much for early due part of time.
So he brought me in.
And one of the things we had was a warehouse facility.
And I sort of took over that relationship.
And I was young and I was probably more aggressive than I had to be at the time.
And I thought, you know, hey, listen, look at me.
I'm the boss now.
You'll do what I want.
And after maybe a maulth or two, my boss called me into his office.
And he was just kind of, he was the owner of the facility.
I wrote a letter complaining about me.
And he read it to me.
My boss did.
And just, you know, and it was, it was my favorite.
I still have the letter.
It was not nice at all.
And if I had to go a little personal.
And I was just, you know, and I thought, for sure, I was body fire.
But I mean, it's like, obviously here I've done, I've stepped in.
I've overstepped, and he read the whole letter.
And I said, I said, you know, hey, I'm really sorry.
And he laughed.
He goes for what?
Because this is exactly what I urge you to do.
I didn't think I didn't think it'd get it done in 30 days, though.
And I'm like, can I have a comment of the letter?
Because I sure he can have it.
And just, you know, and, and, you know, what I learned was to sort of not
make assumptions about where the boss is coming from.
And of course, now that I'm the boss, I see it happen all the time.
You know, people, people will quit.
And they'll say, this company is going to go to hell in the hand basket.
They're never going to survive without me.
They don't know what we do.
And they go out there, maybe we didn't know what you do.
And we just figured we could somebody else do it.
Like, you know, I had another similar one where I had cut a bunch of checks.
My first job, I was probably 22.
And I didn't have the money in the bank account.
And I mean, so I called the power company.
All of these, you know, like eight or nine vendors,
I called them and I explained to them that the check wasn't going to clear.
And I, and I got them all of them to upgrade and not cash the check.
And I took me a few days and I brought all this to my boss.
And then I just, I just laid all the line.
I wanted him to know what I did.
But, you know, I didn't just come to the problem, I solved the problem.
And he goes, don't ever do that again.
I said, he goes, if you just told me, I would have just deposited, you know,
five grand into the company bank account.
You wouldn't have had, you wouldn't have had this problem.
Of course, you know, 22 years old, like who has $5,000 positive bank?
I didn't think that was a thing.
And so I have a lot of little anecdotal scenarios like that.
But I think they've all sort of stuck with me and just, you know, collectively,
you know, and I've, I've inherited some of them as my own.
I've, I've avoided some of them as things.
I don't ever want to do that to anybody.
I think that's really sort of the collection of things as opposed to any really meaningful
impactful conversations that I had, which I know people get to have.
I, I've just never really had any of those.
I mean, I love that because it wasn't like anyone just said, hey, they sat you down
and said, here are the steps.
Here's what I need you to do.
They said, how about you go out there and do it?
And when you mess up, I'll tell you not to do it again.
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
And then that is for a fact how I've run every organization I've ever been
a charger with.
And, you know, it, it makes you break people, but you know, most of the people that work for me now
have worked for me for 15 years or more.
And they all were thrown over their head, you know, into the fire or whatever you want to say.
There's all kinds of little analogies that you can use.
And it was, you know, figuring out and, you know, using as a resource.
And, you know, you'll know, you know, hopefully you'll realize when things might go really south
and come running into my office and I'll make sure that doesn't happen.
And you'll never, you'll never put people in a position where they could cause
or maybe embarrass them themselves.
But, you know, that's, that's not the end of the world when you're,
when you're starting your career off.
But, you know, I would never, you know, I would never let anybody put the company in harm's way.
And, you know, and they're all, now they'll tell you that it was unpleasant and
they wish they didn't have to go through it that way.
And, you know, maybe they'll all swear they'll never do it that way to anybody again.
But, as I assure them all, they're all much better for it.
And, you know, and I did that with, you know, it's kind of how we raise our kids too.
You know, there, you know, our kids were, you know, we could have put trackers on their phone
and GPS in the car.
And, you know, I said to my wife, you know what, let's just let our kids lie.
That's what they wanted to let them, you know, be caught.
They're going to, you know, face the consequences of that.
But the idea that I need to know where my child was every minute of the day, you know,
wherever they said they were going to be, I mean, you know, part of growing up is, you know,
sort of learning what to do with what you believe to be your perceived freedom.
And so it was, I guess, I'm not telling you that's right or wrong.
It's just, it's just an approach that I've adopted.
And, like I said, I think it's, I think it serves well.
And, you know, the other thing too is it's trust.
You know, what better way to start a relationship with your boss
than where they just say, you know, it doesn't mean how to do this on this.
I don't have time for this.
You have to take this and, and, and, you know, you have to figure it out, work hard.
And I trust you to do it.
And that's, to me, that's a, that's a great way to start a relationship
as opposed to, you know, you get to do nothing that I don't read twice.
And maybe someday I'll let you do something on your own without me checking
on it. That just, that's always felt to me to be a counter productive way to, to grow
somebody or to method somebody, but.
No, I think that's huge.
And that I really, I really understand that I feel like more now than I would have in the past.
Oh, yeah.
I was, I was used to running teams that were anywhere from like, what, 15, maybe 20 people.
And that's a nice amount of people.
But it's enough to where you can still be kind of micro on everything.
Right. You can still be really all over the business.
But now I have a team of roughly 40.
And I tried the same thing, nearly lost my mind.
I had to adopt a take a step back, let them fail, and I'll help along the way.
Well, I mean, there are people who still micro groups, I bet.
But what they, what happens is all progress is now you're the bottleneck.
And, you know, what I will always tell you is if you do feel you have a team of 40,
and you need to be the bottleneck to double check everything they do before you move on the next step,
either your entire team of 40 was all bad hires.
You should pick it up 40 or, or as I like to say, if everybody in the room is a jerk,
you might just want to look at the matter because it might actually be you.
That's the problem.
Right.
If it's, it's not me, it's everybody else, you know, that might be a problem.
Right.
And that's a, that's a lesson.
But that comes with age, right?
Because when you're coming up, when you're starting your career,
well, of course, it has to be me.
I got the promotion because they love me because I'm the smart guy.
And therefore, it all has to be me.
And, and eventually, you know, hopefully you, you learn that lesson
when you're younger, because it's, it's harder to, the older you get, the
sadder you become when you learn it, and then you realize how many years you've wasted.
Um, you know, you can, you can play a lot more golf and watch a lot more dance recitals
if you decide that everybody else is competent.
And, you know, you're the, you're the, uh, you know, you're the conductor of the orchestra.
Right.
Now that's, that's always a great analogy because people will tell you what the conductor
you can do and then play any instruments.
Oh, you know, the fact is most conductors play every instrument.
Like, I don't think, I don't think people realize, oh, this is guys sitting up there
the stick and they're doing this and that doesn't mean anything.
And, um, but if you know anything about how that really works, um, and why there are
great conductors and, and okay conductors, um, because that is a incredibly important role.
And if you can keep everybody doing the work themselves, but you just keep them all on the
same page with the same focus, um, you know, that's actually, uh, that's how you set yourself up for,
for a great middle age, um, because you don't, how you give you a lot done and you don't have to,
um, you know, you don't, you don't have to work hard at everything.
Uh, somebody has told me once, um, the way you can tell, um, you know, I'm also the
chief executive officer, but I don't use that title.
I use the president title just because because of this, um, if you're working in your business,
you're president, then if you work on your business, then you're CEO.
The CEO doesn't really deal with the operations of the company.
I know a lot of small company people have, you know, CFO, CEO, president, you know,
grand poo ball, you know, whatever, whatever it's time you want to give yourself.
Uh, but somebody told me that once, I think I was a member of a, of a, of a CEO organization and
that, that also kind of always stuck with me.
And I, um, and I do work in the business a lot.
I'm very actively involved in development and, uh, you know, large customer things, but I,
I've always since I heard that I try to spend, you know, at least a few hours a week,
just stepping back outside of what we're doing from day to day and just try to make sure that
I've got some idea, you know, if we're trying to go, if we're trying, if we're heading towards
where we want to get, and if all these decisions that we're making,
because you know, a lot of times when you're in the weeds, you know, you make, you make a
decision about getting out of the weeds, well, that doesn't necessarily mean you're making
a good strategic long term decision, you're just trying to get out of the weeds.
And so I like to, I like to spend some time, you know, reconciling those things with myself.
So.
I love that I've never heard that before.
So you're a president when you're working in your business, you're a CEO when you're working
on your business.
I love that that I appreciate you for that, that nugget.
And, and you make made so many good points, right?
The idea of, and I actually had someone tell me this recently, where if you can't leave work
without having to worry about your business, you're not a, you're not a leader, right?
You're a manager.
And I, I've learned that over time, luckily I've, I've gotten to make a lot of mistakes.
And I realized in the past when I had a team of 20, I was a manager because if I left,
it was always in my mind, like, oh, is everything going to be okay?
Oh, how's it going to go?
And now I actually took a vacation, I think a little over a month ago, I was gone for a whole week.
Didn't have any problems.
I had one person that was, that would just check in and say, Hey, David, nothing really happened
a day. That's an issue.
Everything's running smoothly.
Keep enjoying your vacation.
And I got to just really step away and never been able to do it since I started as a leader.
And that, and that was really eye-opening to me.
So I appreciate your wisdom.
I went to Italy for a month of summer.
So I know exactly what you're talking about and, and, and you know what, not one of my
executive leadership batten and eyelash at it.
They weren't even worried.
They know if I'm, if I need to do something, if I know there's, there's internet, there's
printer, there's FedEx, you know, if something, you know, if I had to do something that had to get
done, they know I'd go get it done.
But, you know, how many things have to get done with such short time notice that nobody knew was
coming that I heard of there.
And they're just like, you know, that just, it shouldn't happen.
And so yeah, I hear you there.
No, that's so true.
And, and actually what I wanted to ask too.
So I want to skip a little bit around.
I apologize.
But with, with today's current market, right?
I know you started, you know, doing this online education and, and giving these resources
before anyone was even thinking that they were necessary.
Now we're in a world where everyone is getting their resources.
Granted, I know you have a focus on college students, but you're in a world now where
everyone is trying to give resources and offer information online.
How do you, how do you see that that's going to kind of change?
I guess, do you think that'll impact your market at all or affect it as people keep
looking for alternative education?
And, you know, I just wrote an article about this, you know, so specifically,
though, here's the, the latest thing that's going to change everything,
is, you know, the, the, the AI.
Okay.
Chad GPT, you don't know tutors are going to go away.
You're not going to need tutors anymore.
Because Chad GPT, I've, I've seen people publish this.
And, and of course, you know, people say, well, what do you think about that?
My, my answer is very simple.
It's like, well, then you don't know what a tutor is.
That's not, I mean, a tutor doesn't give you the answer.
So sure.
By the way, I mean, if Chad GPT is now the latest and greatest, best way to cheat.
All right.
That's fine.
I mean, that, that doesn't, that, that's, you know, there'll be even better ones in the future, I'm sure.
Um, you know, but a tutor, um, builds a human connection.
Like with net tutor sort of online service.
Like if, if you, we, we know we sort of study the sessions.
And, and almost a third of what we do are, you know, hey, don't worry about this.
You know, because people come to us and they won't come to us like, hey,
I need the answer to this question.
They'll come to us and they'll say, I'm taking this math class.
I shouldn't even be in this math class.
I suck at math.
I don't even really know why I'm going to college.
That's how, that's how people start tutoring sessions.
Um, and if the best response to that is, the answer is nine, um, then like I said,
then you don't really understand tutoring.
So we spend a lot of time making, you know, do you have a quiet place to study?
Um, you know, do you have time, you know, how much time do you have a week to do your
homework?
You know, do you work a full time when you're going to school and just, you know, the
tutors, because by the way, a lot of our tutors started in community college.
They did, they were tutors as work study programs so that they,
so that they could afford to go to college.
They did well in community college.
They went to a four year school somewhere.
They were two to the four year school because they needed the money because
they had to work through college.
Um, and then, you know, then they eventually, they went and got a master's degree.
So, you know, they, they, they finally, you know, they, they caught up with their
ability to sort of support themselves.
Um, and now they tutor and some two to full time, some two to part time.
Um, but they, you know, they have, you know, if they don't have personal understanding
of your situation, they have enough empathy to, to say, I understand what you're saying.
Um, and then we get into the work and then it's, you know, well, what, what did your
teacher say?
Do you have lecture notes?
Did you, did you bring the book home?
Did he have any videos?
Did you watch the videos?
Um, and so we sort of put the student through the grind that's
well, you know, well, why don't you know this?
Like, if, if you, if you went to class and about it, sometimes the answer is,
I might be in a math class that's a little too hard for me.
And then we'll try to coach them and maybe we'll recommend they go talk to a counselor,
you know, maybe you should, maybe you should take the class before this or whatever.
Um, but a lot of times it's just panic.
You know, you sit down and you know, you're not, you don't feel you're good at math.
That's nothing.
You were very, very growth mindset or, or it's, it's whenever anybody says,
I'm not going to math and say, you haven't been taught math well yet in your life,
but eventually you're going to get there and eventually math won't be so scary.
I mean, when we say good at math, people say, I'm not going to math.
Nobody's means like, I'm not going to calculus.
Like nobody's going to calculus.
I mean, somebody, except the calculus people, whether we're not, you know,
we're talking about like, you know, you're not good at basic arithmetic and,
simple single variable algebra, like, you know, you are good at it.
Like if you shop, I mean, if you shop at a store, if you, if you buy groceries,
if you collect coupons, I mean, like you're, you just don't think of that as math.
And then all of a sudden you open the book and, and sheer panic sets in, um, you know,
sure, maybe someday we'll have fantastic robots that have human personalities and have all the
habits, you know, and that might be a thing in the future.
I don't see it.
We're anywhere close.
And, and, and, and now a lot of the stuff that's coming out, you know,
that Stanford did a study, you know, Chad GBT is giving the wrong answers.
Chad GBT is using a photograph.
So yeah, there's a, there's a Stanford study that just came out where they,
well, over time, if you keep asking Chad GBT the same questions over and over again,
they're, they're less effective.
And a lot of when they, when they build, um, you know, when you ask it to write a paper
and it sort of, right, you know, they, it has this ability to write a paper.
Um, it's taking text from online that it's finding and, and not sourcing it probably.
So again, you know, if that's, you know, when the internet first came out and
everybody was saying like, well, my goodness, you know, all the day, the error needs there.
Um, you know, colleges are going to be in trouble.
And it's like, well, I mean, if, if having the knowledge in your building was all
you needed, then libraries would have been the degree granting institutions.
All right.
Like, what do we need all the faculty for?
Right.
I mean, of course that's, that's silly when you say it like that.
Right.
So, um, so the fact, you know, I mean, Chad GBT is going to suffer through, you know,
Google and Wikipedia, like it just, you can use these things as a, as a reference, as a resource.
And if you're trying to win an argument at a bar, Wikipedia is great.
And Wikipedia all agree that Wikipedia is the fact, you know, you can't be at a bar
arguing that Wikipedia is wrong.
You're just allowed to do it.
Even if it is, you're not allowed to do it.
It's unacceptable.
But if you're, but if you're Trump, but if you're like researching something,
if you're trying to learn about it so that you can write about it in an intelligent,
articulate way, I mean, you know, Chad GBT or any of these things, that's not the way to do it.
We're competing is not the way to do it.
And, and, um, now, you know, and what happens to
honest research papers and, you know, those things every time.
I mean, you know, certainly we've seen school drastically change just in the 25 years I've been
doing this, um, you know, almost all homework is auto graded now.
So almost nobody, um, you know, if you're going to do a paper,
you're going to upload the paper, you're going to run it through some plagiarism detection first.
All of the STEM stuff you do online, the homework questions that get graded by the computer software
certainly papers have to be read.
But they're, they're in some programs out there that are, that are sort of trying to
auto grade the written work.
You know, it says teachers get, um, you know, they have more students in less free time.
You know, they're always looking for ways to, um, cut down the time they spend on things like
grading. So, um, but yeah, you touched on a lot of important stuff.
So I actually got to interview a gentleman previously named Mark Whitehorn.
And in a different interview unrelated to me, he talked about the AI of right now is not actually
like AI. It's to your point, all it does is it takes information from other places
and then in the compiles it while like true AI will be able to create information, right?
It can't create anything.
True AI will eventually realize the problem with the plan that is mankind
themselves and then start building terminators to eliminate it. It's correct.
That is all right.
Remember is that it's not, it's not, it's not really clear.
So, so AI is certainly, um, right. If, if, if the computer can skip a step for you,
then you could argue that the fact that, that step is being skipped is because the
computer has artificial intelligence, but you are 100% right. Um, is best we can tell.
And then there should only can be algorithms that can try to vet things a little differently
than Google, which Google just bases it on how many times that page visited and how much money
you're paying, right? I mean, it's, it's a service. It's a paid for service.
Um, you know, so this is probably a better step in the right direction.
But instead of pointing you to any of the sources, it just gives you the answers as if
they wrote the answer. Um, it's, oh yeah, for sure.
Um, it doesn't seem to be, um, coming up with its own
stuff. You know, if you ask her the question about George Washington, it says, well, I don't
know anything about George Washington, but go Google George Washington. I'm going to, I'm going to
go read three hundred. So if I booked in one second about George Washington, I'm going to index it
all on the catalog. And now I think I know I have an idea of George Washington. Now I can answer
your question. I'm not sure. Um, that's what these things are doing. Um,
um, and I don't know that they'll ever do. I've never really quite, you know, understood where,
where when we, you know, because, you know, we have all these, you know, robots must do no harm.
Like it was like, I just, I'm not really quite sure at what, like how you program a robot
to literally start to form its own conclusions. Um, yeah, I mean, I guess,
and I just, I'm not really quite sure what the, what the context is for, because forming your own
conclusion here, your daughter comes to you and she brings you a really big personal problem.
And then you say, well, have you talked to your mom about this? Maybe she has, maybe she hasn't
yet or maybe she wants you to go tell mom so that she doesn't yell that or you can talk to them
and you see, well, when we know this comes from playing heads, you know, maybe you can do this
or, you know, I can, you know, I can go up the campus and help, but it's, it's, it's trial and error
and discussion. Um, I don't, I don't know of very many scenarios where, you know, something comes
up here, three facts and then anybody has ever just asked to come to the conclusion that mankind
is evil and we have to go. Um, and so I've never really quite understood, like, where, you know,
maybe it will come. But it always seems to me, right? It's like those, like those chess
programs where they were the, they were the first ones and then at one point they beat some of the,
some of the chess champions. But what they're doing is they're analyzing every single possible
move that's left in the chessboard. The analyzing the outcome and then deciding which one of those
it could do those calculations really, really fast, right? But that's, that's all doing.
It's not looking at you to see if you have any sweat coming from your brow. Um,
right. And it's like, you know, it's, it's, if you ever watch those poker tournaments, it's like,
you know, kind of, kind of computer ever emulate, you know, as a computer, ever going to show up
with like really big Gucci sunglasses and a poker tournament, like I don't know. And, and
therefore, um, you know, where, where does this intelligence come into play? Um,
because certainly, you know, computers can do is they can, they can run way more calculations
per second than our brain could ever even consider doing. And so if it's quantitative or if you're,
if you're looking for a whole bunch of stuff really, really fast, right? The, um, the computer can
search for keywords a lot faster than your icon, right? So,
not that. But, you know, it's a, um, you know, like any, any other change, um, you know, I, I,
I debate the doom stairs of, you know, teaching and tutoring, because I've heard people say
that teaching will, that, that AI will, will replace teachers, right? You never, you've never
stepped foot in a third grade class if you think that's going to have luck. Um, right. That's
that it's talking about herding cats. But, you know, I'm sure a lot of great,
we're all on as stuff gets better and better. It's, I'm sure it'll provide some use. And, and
by the way, we, our company uses it. One thing is great and is, is, is helping you write marketing
material. Like if, you know, if you write, if you write your marketing material and you upload it
and you say, what charge do you, could you please make this sound, uh, more academic?
Yeah, I'll spit you back on something and you're just like, oh, that's, that's really good.
Uh, we did one thing where we had two articles. Um, and we told Chad GBT to merge them.
And we had a memo that somebody wrote and an article and I'd written, but we wanted both
things in there and it came back out with something that was like, all right, now I sent it to my
editor and she said, well, you can tell you these Chad GBT really is so there are apparently, um,
publications are on to this and they don't want you to, because certain words that Chad GBT uses
constantly, uh, that are a little bit bigger. Like you think, oh, that's going to be really big.
But they're sticking it in the articles constantly. Um,
right. That's the only two is like, you only know you're one sample.
But if somebody has submitted 50 samples around different things, then you start to see the trend.
Um, so anyways, no, that's, I mean, that's a good point, but something you talked about too,
that was huge as far as being able to replace teachers or tutors. So I remember back when I
was in college, I, I struggled in math terribly. The irony being, I'm in the banking industry now,
and I work with math all day, right? But I struggled terribly just, I wasn't taught very well in my
high school, right? Which, but I kept trying to get the answers online, because even before Chad
GBT and AI, there's plenty of soft words that'll spit out answers at you. If you put an equation
into it, I still, it still wouldn't work. I still was having trouble. I wasn't passing. And then I
said, you know what, I'm going to give up. I'm going to go to a tutor. And I sat down and I'm
like, what is the answer? And they said, you're supposed to tell me now, how about I show you
how to get the answer? And you'll be able to do it every time from there. And it was that empathy
and that patience that really made the difference for me. So I, I completely agree with you. I don't
think tutors or teachers are going anywhere. It is, it is, you know, and again, it goes back
to sort of what I said, if you have people at home who have kind of done it and been through it,
then you have that guidance. If you don't know anybody else has ever been through it,
then you just don't know. And how do you in a high, and you're not going to, you're not going
to warn it by going online, you know, somebody, and that's where teachers and tutors and people
out in the role of your mentor, right? The whole purpose, right? They sort of say to you,
and buy a no good mentor says, Oh, no, no, no, don't do that. The answer is seven.
You go do what you think is right. And then when you film this, come back to me and we'll talk
about learning. I mean, any good mentor does that. And so yeah, yeah, I mean, because a lot of it is
just, you know, not putting the lecture together. Yeah, for example, I did this with one of my
daughters and coach, she got really frustrated because the teacher was going too fast for her and
she couldn't take notes. It turned out she was really trying to write down everything he said.
Hey, that's not taking notes. For sure. They don't want you to write down anything. For sure.
Any percent of what they said is nonsense and absolutely useless. Like, do they have to do
they have power points needs? Well, they do. They the PowerPoint slides. I said, break them before
class. Have them there. And as he's going through them, take notes on the slide, but listen for
something that he says that actually means something. But you don't have to write down all the slides
up. And she's like, Oh, my goodness gracious. That was exactly what I needed to do. But I knew
that because I was not a great college student when my undergraduate either. So I had to learn
all tricks to make it easier on myself. Probably the one I should have learned that I had a
manager was you had to go to class. That was probably my biggest mistake. You know, nobody's
taking attendance. I interpreted that the wrong way. But right. But having somebody that's that's
the thing that if you're lucky enough to have a teacher or tutor, that's where they help you
more than anything else. So yeah. Now, I know we've gone over a little bit. I'd love to ask you
just one more question. And then I'll let you enjoy the rest of the time with your family. I
know you have a big one. Keep you busy. So something I was really curious about with
your experience and especially with how long you've been doing this. How did you go about
creating partnerships, not only on a national level, but on an international level? And these,
your partnerships aren't even just we have a contract. Your partnerships are we have
like a relationship like not only are we partnered, but you trust and rely on me and we're as close
as family. How did you go out building that with different colleges and systems?
Yeah, you know, I mean, you know, I wish that there was some secret sauce that I could bottle
and sell. That would probably be great. You know, I mean, I think first and foremost,
that has a lot to do with just how I am.
I will, you know, I'll sit on calls with customers when we're negotiating contracts. And I'll just
say like, hey, listen, I want to let you know that I've talked to my way out of more contracts with
people than I have ever having to go ground the contract after they were a partner and go back
and try to remember who you said what. So I just, you know, I appreciate you going through this with
us now. We want to get this right. But you know, I don't, you know, I'd rather lose you now and not
ever have you been a customer than get you as a customer. And then me, you know, feel like you
misunderstood something. And so that once it came up later, I didn't have to do it because
ha ha, you didn't, you didn't like it. And I bow and I had some sales people still on the calls
going, what can you say? Well, that's true. You know, I don't, I don't, you know, I, I, I, you
know, for the most part, I've had very, very, very negative interaction with people,
wasn't even customers like it's oh, you know, if something's wrong, and my team can't handle it
if it comes to me, it's, they know, like I will fix it and maybe not for free. Maybe I won't accept
responsibility for it being wrong. You know, but listen, if you think it's wrong, then here are
some options. And if you tell me it's wrong, and I don't have any money to fix it, then I'll give
you some options. But maybe you won't get there, but you know, I'll be straightforward. I'll be
honest. And I think when you do that, then you, that's how you really develop partnerships. And I
buy out. I also do be, I'd be remiss not to say I have some great people on the link systems team
who, who take this concept of partnership. My chief operating officer, if she ever gets referred
to as a vendor by a customer, she will say, excuse me, excuse me. I just want to say, you know, we're
part of, you know, as a vendor vendors, vendors are just people you send checks to and then he's
screws the same letters. That's how we did. We, we interact directly with all your students. You,
you want us, we're part of with you guys and they'll be like, and maybe we'll get them to agree to
vendor partner. Like that might be the best we'll get. But it's in a lot of people's, you know, a lot
of the language we use internally is making sure our own people believe it. Because when we believe
it, and that's how we talk to the schools, then they'll start to believe. Right? It's not just a
buzzword on the flyer. It is a partnership because, like I said, you know, right? It's not,
is we're not, we're not selling 372 Mac computers. And we were the lowest bidder when the, you know,
when, when it arrived at your warehouse, you have 30 days to pay. And that's, that's a vendor.
You know, you're, you're asking us to learn about what your school does, what your learning
center does, what your teachers do, what's, what's important about, you know, what's important to
your faculty. And our tutors, you know, when your school pumps up, our tutors get a little
checklist over here that we can share this with. So that they know, you know, the little nuance
that the school wants us to know. So, so the student doesn't feel like they've left the confines of
the campus to go on to some random third party company that they feel like we are that the
school has embraced this online service. And therefore, you know, we're part of them. And,
you know, to do that, you know, it behooves the school to talk about us like we're
partner internally. And other people, that's a, that's a very powerful word when you're
working with customers, right? If you can acknowledge that this isn't a contractual relationship,
this is a partnership that together we're going to work to make it as good as we can for your students.
And it just comes after a while, it just comes natural. And so, yeah, thanks for bringing that
up because I do like to talk about that. I think that's a beautiful thing. And as a, as a salesman
myself, right? Something I found and especially learned early on and what I find with some of my
bankers as they're starting off is clients will refer to them as like just their salesman or their
banker. And to the same as you would consider when someone says that as a vendor, I'm like,
Ooh, I'm, I'm not just a banker, right? I know it feels like because I'm giving you numbers,
you're telling me about your medical issues, right? You're telling me about everything that's
happened in your life for the last decade. And you're going to call me again in a decade if you need
help. I don't want to just be the guy who gets your money and then moves on. I'm going to call
and check on you in a year and make sure you're following the plan we set up. So I need you to
answer the phone and remember I'm David, not the banker.
Well, you know, it's funny. I will, you know, things will bubble up to me.
Maybe somebody has an invoicing question and it'll come through our con con department,
but it'll end up on my desk and I'll reply. But I just know my name, Vinnie. I don't, I don't
I don't have a signature block. I just, all my emails just come as Vinnie. I don't even put my last
name most time. You know, it's in my, my email is Vincent Dott for East. So, you know, people
can figure out who I am. And I've had, it's happened to me multiple times that we've been on
a call, you know, we're trying to resolve something, maybe there's a pass to win a voice or they,
or the PO wasn't done right or whatever it was. And we'll be on the phone call. And,
and the person I'm going to deal with, okay, I have Vinnie from their accounts.
And the other person called me, he's like, um, very Beth.
Vinnie's the president of like systems. I said, Oh my God, I had no idea.
Oh my God. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't think it was germane to what you and I working on.
So, um, you know, because again, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm serving them as best I can, because they're
a partner and I don't, I don't need any kudos from somebody in their, their accounting department.
Like I'm not, you know, I don't need anybody to be like, you know, worship, worship. You remember
who I am. I'm the very important. Right. It was like, it was, it was a counting problem.
You know, I, I happened to know a little bit about accounting. So I will try to wreck
us out for you. And if I can help her, somebody else on my team couldn't, um, you know, I always
find those little, those little math problems often fun when we can't figure out why we're off by
$200 to I will, I will break out my spreadsheet. I will figure it out for you.
No, I love that. And that's those are things I get to work on because I don't have to do
any of the real work because I've got people, people must smarter than me doing all the real
work. Now, I will be honest, when you first emailed me and it said, Vinnie, I was like, is this,
is this the right guy? Is this, did we email the wrong person? But, but then I, I watched more.
I do have, I can go on out, look, and I can put my full signature block and I will break that
out for somebody if I feel that, you know, if it's, if it seems important enough that I want
them to feel like they're getting, but only if I think it matters to them, because it will
never matter to me. And if I think they need to know that they're hearing from the president of
our company, then I'll break out that signature block. That is not my default signature block,
just. So no, I get you. I love it. And again, Vinnie, I know I've kept you way over than you
plan, but I can't stress enough. I'm so grateful you've taken this time and you shared your knowledge.
I mean, today we've learned about the value of partnership. We've learned about the value of
education and empathy, as well as a slew of other things that I'm almost overwhelmed in the knowledge.
I'm going to have to listen back to this episode a few more times. But I want to just, again,
thank you. If anyone wants to see more of Vinnie, an amazing man, I won't give the entire title,
because once you know him, he's Vinnie, make sure you check in the description. You'll have links
to his website, to him, LinkedIn, the whole nine yards, and as well as myself. Again, thank you,
Vinnie, for taking this time out of your days. I didn't know if there was anything else you
wanted to say or touch on before we wrap up. Nope. I appreciate it. Thank you for your time.
And I'm glad to do this. I'm looking forward to talking to you again today.
Oh, I am as well. I definitely am. So everyone, let's win. Let's have some fun.
Let's have an amazing blessed rest of the day and week. Thank you all. See you later.