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Join the Youthworks Ministry Support Team as they discuss how to have an effective youth and children’s ministry in every church in conversation with local ministry workers as well as national and international voices.
Get in touch - effectiveministrypodcast@youthworks.net
Speaker: Welcome back to the Effective
Ministry Podcast, the podcast that
helps you have an effective youth and
children's ministry in your local church.
And today on the podcast,
we're gonna be talking with
the Reverend Polly Butterworth.
She's a high school chaplain in Sydney.
Uh, she's someone that loves
sinking through how to communicate
the gospel clearly to youth,
particularly to teenage girls.
She's written a book called The Mythical
Life of the Good Christian Girl.
She's also presented at kick, , on what
it means to be made in the image of God.
And so she's, , a seasoned
practitioner when it comes to
youth ministry in particular.
But today we're gonna be talking with her
about a new role that she's in
as the school's Ministry development
officer for the Sydney Anglican
Diocese, this is a one day a week
position with the Sydney Angland Church
to support schools, ministry workers
in their work in Anglican schools.
And in particular, one of the things
we'll talk about today is how can you
have a really good partnership with a
Christian school and a local church,
a local youth or children's ministry.
So really looking forward to that today.
AL: Hey, Polly, welcome to the
Effective Ministry Podcast.
It's so good to have you,
Polly: Yeah.
Thanks for having me.
AL: not your first time on the podcast.
Polly: No, I think
maybe my third even
AL: Oh, really?
I like, I remember the one where, oh,
well, what, what are the ones that you
remember?
Polly: I was on with Pete Oates, who's a
junior school chaplain.
AL: Uh, yeah.
Polly: and then I was on to talk about
my book.
AL: Yes.
Your book, which is called.
Polly: The Mythical Life of the
Good Christian Girl.
AL: Not the topic
of this, uh, podcast, but I
Polly: already got a podcast about
AL: That's right.
But I did re I read that book and
I found it really helpful, even
though I'm not, um, I'm neither
good nor I am a Christian girl, so.
Polly: Well, I'm glad.
AL: Um, uh, but yeah.
But today, you're here to talk
about kind of school partnerships,
um, and school ministry and that
kind of thing, and that's because
you're in a, brand new role.
What's, what's the role?
Give us the title,
Polly.
Polly: The title is School's
Ministry Development Officer.
Uh, it's a one day a week position
with the Anglican Diocese to support
schools, people in Anglican schools, um,
particularly schools, ministry workers
in Anglican schools.
Yeah.
AL: Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I mean, that's quite
an exciting development.
Polly: It is, it's great.
AL: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So tell us a little bit, and, and
that's the Sydney Anglican Diocese.
Polly: Correct?
Yes.
AL: uh, tell us a little bit about
like what does this role entail?
Like it's one day a week,
um, but there's various
parts to it.
Polly: Yeah, so there's kind of
five main goals for the role.
Um, firstly is to think about kind of
pastoral support for chaplains, um,
to think about kind of how they can be
supported through mentoring or through
peer relationships and having some kind
of network work or structure for that
pastoral support.
AL: Yeah, bring, so bringing, bringing
them together potentially to support one
another, but also potentially, you know,
you being in a support role as well.
Polly: Um, I'm more facilitating, um,
you know, I'm happy to support people,
but, um, you know, there are a lot of
chaplains and there are a lot of chaplains
with a lot more experience than me.
Um, and especially senior chaplains,
I think can feel, um, a little
bit sidelined and like they might
not have anyone to, to look to.
So finding even more experience,
senior chaplains or those who are maybe
retired to be able to support those in.
In their role, um, just to, to kind
of keep them going and, um, yeah,
offer advice and, and assistance.
Um, so yeah, working on those kind of
partnerships, um, amongst school chaplains
and other school ministry workers.
Um, and then the second thing is to think
about partnerships between schools and
churches and to kind of on a macro level
and a micro level, make that partnership
better, uh, between our Anglicans.
Churches in our Anglican schools.
Um, I'm also interested in, or part
of my role is to think about how
to train school chaplains well.
So thinking about recruiting school
chaplains, what it looks like for someone
who wants to go into schools ministry, to
go to bible college or to become teacher
trained, or, um, you know, how to get
from a person saying, I'm interested in
becoming a school chaplain or a Christian
studies teacher, to the endpoint of them
being trained and equipped for that role.
. One other, , part is to think
about how to share resources better
between, um, different schools.
Uh, most Christian studies teachers
write their own curriculum and
chaplains, you know, obviously are,
are writing everything from scratch.
And so thinking about how we might be
able to share those resources a little bit
bit and have those kind of communities of
practice, um, when it comes to materials.
Um, and then the last
AL: you, I was gonna say, 'cause you,
you, you, I mean, you guys pour over your
material and you do really good stuff.
And to
be able to share that would
be a really great thing.
Polly: Yeah, absolutely.
And um, it, it, it is a little tricky
because schools vary so much and the,
the content that, um, we produce is often
quite specific to the school that we're
in or the cultural moment that we're in.
We are constantly refining
based on, you know, what the,
the zeitgeist is, is happening.
Um, but.
At the same time, there's also
copyright issues about, um, you
know, what you produce in a school.
And so just thinking what's the best
way to, so that if someone walks into
a school and they're, they're told that
they need to redesign a curriculum,
or they realize that, that something's
not working, um, how do they not have
to reinvent the wheel every time?
Because that's what most of
us are doing all the time.
Um.
Yeah.
And so then the last part is to work
with, um, a committee called Sydney
Anglican Schools Ministry Association,
um, which is a volunteer committee that
I've been on for about six years, um,
that provide professional development
for schools, ministry workers.
Um, so kind of that part
of my role is really easy.
I'm already working with them.
I'm already on that committee,
but it allows me a little
bit extra time to be able to.
To work, um, on those professional
development days and, um, yeah, be
able to have encouragement and training
for current chaplains,
AL: is that that's providing PD
for chaplains more than for, you
know, uh, classroom teachers or that
kind of thing?
Polly: uh, chaplains and
Christian studies teachers.
Um, we tend to have more of an
outturn for chaplains, um, but
Christian studies teachers or, yeah.
Um, even, yeah, people who are,
yeah, maybe have a different.
that they teach, but then
they dip into the classroom.
Um, junior school chaplains, um, yeah.
All people who consider
themselves schools, ministry
workers, whatever that looks
like in their school.
AL: Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I mean, uh, I have written down
here in my little list, five things.
Um, and you are doing this one day a
week at the moment?
Um,
Polly: And to clarify
at the moment, it's for
one year,
AL: Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Polly: Yeah.
AL: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, Um, yeah, so I,
I mean, I was gonna say eight hour
day, you know, so a, you know, a
little bit more than an hour on
each of those things every
day, that kind of thing.
Um,
Polly: in a
podcast here or there
AL: yeah, no, exactly.
Well, I mean, it's ex, it's like
looking down the list, like that's a
really exciting kind of thing to have
that, to be supporting chaplains, but
then also to kind of be bringing, uh,
supporting them by bringing them together.
It sounds like that's sort of your, um,
that, that, that's kind of the, the main
kind of idea of how you might facilitate
good relationships between chaplains.
I can imagine like being a chaplain in
a, in like depending on the school and
the, and the setting could be a really
isolating role at times.
Right.
Polly: Yeah, absolutely.
And I think, um, especially if you are
someone who may, may have been trained in
parish ministry or, um, you're a teacher
that's moved into this space, um, there's
a lot of things that go on that you
might not be prepared for necessarily.
And um, a lot of obstacles that you just.
Don't really necessarily know how to
navigate and, you know, new things are
popping up for us all the time and having
someone else to be able to say, Hey,
how would you deal with this situation?
Or, um, what do I do here
is just really helpful.
Um, some schools, you know,
they have really great teams and
everyone feels super well supported.
Um, but other schools, yeah, it's,
it's one chaplain or two chaplains
or, um, and they're, they're kind
of navigating complex issues, um,
without feeling a whole lot of
support.
AL: mm Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, that's really good.
So like, how, how did
you get into this role?
I mean, obviously, so you
started at the, at the beginning of this
year, is that
Polly: Yeah.
Correct.
AL: yeah.
yeah.
yeah.
So, So, what was the
evolution of, you know.
You know what you were doing to now
including this in what you're doing.
Polly: Yeah, so I have been
a, uh, high school chaplain
at Abbott Ley for seven years.
And during that time, well, I guess
maybe even before that, um, when
I went to college, I knew that I
wanted to be a high school chaplain.
And for me, I found that difficult
to find support and resources.
As to how to do that job well.
And so during my study, I would really
have to seek out other chaplains to
get advice from or to learn how to do
things like preach or, um, yeah, just
to really understand that community.
And so I kind of tried to embed myself,
um, in that kind of professional
learning community so that I could learn
as much as I could from other people.
Um, and also, you know, I thought,
you know, if I ever get an opportunity
to contribute to this space,
um, you know, I'm interested in.
Contributing kind of on the academic and
and study side, but I'm also interested
in figuring out how to do this well
for people who are new to chaplaincy or
people who just want more support, um,
so that this can be a smoother process.
Um, and so, you know, after working at
Abbot Ley, um, for for seven years, this.
I, I was on, as I said, I was on
this committee, um, Sydney Anglican
Schools Ministry Association for
about the last six years, I think.
Um, and all of these things that I've
spoken about would come up a lot.
Um, in our meetings, we meet once
a term, we have two professional,
um, learning days that we run.
But other than that, you know,
we're a volunteer committee.
We're not, we can only
do so much as we can do.
We're all, you know, full-time
chaplains or, or, um, Christian
studies teachers, and so.
Um, I kind of, and, and other people
on that committee were, were doing
these types of things just out of
being able to see that there's a need.
I became real, quite passionate about
connecting with local churches, thinking
that that's a really obvious partnership.
Um, and trying to just nut down
how to do that really well.
Um, I was really interested, you know,
um, we're often told that supervision is
quite helpful and so I was like, well,
what does that look like for a chaplain?
Um,
AL: Do you, do you mean like,
do you mean like professional
supervision, pastoral supervision?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Polly: yeah, So how does that
fit in, um, for chaplaincy and,
AL: fits into recess, right?
Is that
the
Polly: exactly, and I was personally
looking for people to be mentored
by, or to ask questions to, and other
people were asking me questions.
And so a lot of this stuff was
kind of happening from the ground
level, um, as people were seeing
that there, there was need, um, and.
Yeah, this role, um, very thankfully came
about because basically we were approached
by, um, those in the Anglican diocese and
said, Hey, how do we, how do we support
schools of ministry workers better?
And we as a committee told them,
these are all the problems we
see, or these are all of the.
The things that we're trying to
address that we would love to
have more power behind to address.
And as a result of that conversation,
this role was developed.
So it's, I think it's really fantastic
because the role was developed by people
who are doing the work on the ground.
AL: Mm-hmm.
Polly: Saying, these are the
things that need to be addressed.
And then it was a, yeah, a
direct response to what we had
indicated we needed help for.
Um, and so this position was
created, um, it was kind of
put out to, you know, whoever.
And initially I thought, you know,
I, I probably don't know enough
or I'm too young or whatever.
Um, and then as I kept reading
the description, I thought, oh,
these are all things that I'm.
Quite passionate about and that
I spend my free time doing.
Um, and so wouldn't it be great if I
could have a day a week to actually
do that instead of doing it in my
spare time or, um, trying to, you
know, do do it in the evenings.
And so, you know, I applied and
the rest is history, but, um.
Yeah, I think it's, it's really cool
that it's, that it's come from chaplains
and come from schools, ministry workers.
Um, and very thankfully as well, um, I
was in a position where I was able to
approach my job at Abbott Ley and say,
can I have a day a week to do this?
And they were very appreciative.
Like they were very, um, willing to.
To release me, um, so that
I could have a day a week.
And they, they, you know, likewise thought
that this was a really important role.
Um, and so I think it was, it was a little
bit of a right time, right place thing.
A a lot of chaplains I know
wouldn't be able to get a day
off to be able to do that.
But just where we're at in the moment,
um, has meant that that's been possible,
which has been fantastic.
AL: Yeah,
well, it's very much a capacity
building kind of role, right?
Like it's a sort of, you know, if
I set aside this time, then maybe
incrementally I might be able to
build capacity recruitment, you
know, grow the ministry in schools.
So like, it is fantastic as you say.
Um, now Polly, you just at one moment
you said, uh, you know, you knew that
you wanted to be a high school chaplain.
Like what, when,
how, tell me the story.
How did
you
Polly: Well, the, the story that I
like to tell starts off with me at high
school, um, leaving high school saying,
I have no idea what I wanna do, but I
know I don't wanna be a teacher or a
minister because they're boring jobs.
Um, I grew up as a ministry kid and, um,
I, it was just so normal to me that I
thought like I wanna do something that
I felt was quote unquote more exciting.
Um,
AL: What did you have?
What did you have in
mind?
Polly: Well, I
AL: Guitarist in a rock band or,
Polly: yeah, like pretty
much I, um, studied contemporary music
and, um, thought I'd be a jazz singer
or, um, I also, it was interesting
'cause in those early days I thought,
oh, wouldn't it be interesting
to be a performing arts chaplain?
And so I actually was kind of
looking into that for a little bit.
I thought that that would be a
really interesting place to encourage
people in their faith because it's
obviously quite an interesting
industry to be in as a Christian.
And so I guess I got introduced
to chaplaincy in general through.
Thinking about that.
Um, and then, you know, kind of decided
that maybe the arts wasn't, I wasn't
necessarily passionate enough about.
The arts to, um, really do all
of the things you need to do to
get ahead in that kind of space.
And, um, yeah, I dabbled in a
little bit of, um, parish ministry
and, um, had had a great time, but
something just didn't really, um,
fit my personality or, or something.
I'm not.
Really sure why.
I just felt like I don't, I don't
think this is where I'm supposed to be.
And so I ended up as an in-school
speaker for open doors, which helped
support persecuted Christians.
Um, and alongside that I was
doing a lot of study camps.
So directing study camps, which
people don't know about, study camps.
I mean, you folks run some great
ones where, um, they, the kids
come along and they study and
then they hear about Jesus and.
I just loved leading on those.
I thought I get to like talk about
English essays and then I get to like
talk about Jesus and ask answer questions
about like the historicity of the
resurrection and then I get to like help
someone with their music project and
I'm like, this is just like the best.
Um, and I was having all these amazing
conversations with teens who are
interested in Jesus, who had come
from schools that kind of knew stuff,
but I thought, oh, what are these
chaplains doing in these schools?
They were probably
doing really great jobs.
AL: Yeah, because
Polly: probably just weren't
AL: That's right.
Loves mini ministry's
complicated.
Exactly,
Polly: Totally, But at the time I was
like, what is going on in these schools?
Um, and
AL: me fix the world.
Polly: now I'm on the, other
side of that and I'm like, oh, I
know exactly what's going on and
it's great gospel ministry work.
Um, but that kind of made me think,
oh, maybe I wanna be a teacher.
So then I became a teacher and then,
um, so I studied music and English
teaching, thinking that I would be a
teacher and that I would have to, you
know, swallow my pride and decide to
be a teacher, which is what I said.
I'd never.
Become, and then the only position I
could find was as a Christian studies
teacher, and I was a little bit reluctant
to take it, but through that process was
like, oh, okay, I wanna be a chaplain.
Um, I get to do ministry, which I
love and teaching, which I love.
Um, which I probably always
knew that I loved those things.
Um, and
yeah, so then I, when I
AL: is prob
probably lots of other people knew.
Polly: Yeah.
Yeah.
It probably wasn't a shock to a lot
of people, um, but it was a little
bit like, okay, I think this is the
road I'm going down, which was great.
I was very thankful for all of
those other weird experiences
that I had to get me there.
Um, but yeah, that then by the
time I was ready to go to Bible
college, I was pretty set.
I knew what I wanted to do.
Yeah.
AL: Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, that's a great story.
Um, and I mean, like, such a varied
role, but one particular part of
it, like the, the, the second one
that you listed there was this idea
of school, church partnerships.
You know, this, this podcast in
particular, you know, we're going
out to youth and children's t
ministers and people involved in
youth and children's ministry.
So like, that particular aspect of
your role, like, seems very relevant
to the, the people listening.
To this one.
What's your, what's your vision
for, for school church partnership?
How do you do school
and church partnerships?
Well, like it's something that
you're very passionate about.
What do you, what do you do
to make it, make it work?
Because I, I feel like it's quite a
tricky partnership at
times, right.
Polly: Well, I, I mean, like the tricky
thing that I found is that there is
often a lot of goodwill behind it.
I don't think that I have to really
convince anyone that, um, something
should be happening in this space.
Um, you know, we have, uh, an Anglican
church who is proclaiming the gospel, who
is, um, trying to reach, you know, Sydney
with Jesus and then a stone throw away.
We have an Anglican school.
With schools, ministry workers who are
doing the exact same thing often to
similar kids or to similar communities.
And so to me it's an absolute
no brainer that there should be
kind, some kind of partnership.
And I think, um, people can kind
of get that, but practically it's
quite difficult when our jobs have
typically not allowed or integrated,
um, that kind of a partnership.
You know, it doesn't say anywhere
on my job description as a chaplain
that I'm going to be, um, seeking.
Partnerships with local churches.
I know some chaplains do have that.
Um, some schools are
really committed to that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, uh, I was particularly talking
to the Anglican Corporation schools,
which is a whole nother beast, but
it's a, it's a group of Anglican
schools and they're, they're, um, in
theory quite committed to, to that.
Um, as part of.
Of what they build into their ministry.
Um, and you know, similarly when
you become a youth minister, or at
least you know what I, what I know
of the role, um, you are not told
explicitly and you, you must carve
out, you know, x amount of time to, to.
Contribute or to, to
partner with a local school.
And so I think there's a lot of goodwill,
but, um, getting there is kind of,
and helping people come over those
obstacles is kind of what I'm trying
to do or where I'm trying to come in.
I guess on a kind of big picture
level, I would just love to see
this kind of symbiotic relationship
where, um, people at who go to these
Anglican schools, especially as,
especially, I mean, I'm, I'm talking
about from my context, I guess, um.
More and more students have no idea
about church and no idea about Jesus.
And if they all knew about the local
churches in our areas, and even if
they're not persuaded in year eight to
go, but when they're 25 years old and go,
oh, I, I wanna go, oh, I know this one.
I know the youth minister.
Um, I know some people from there.
It feels familiar.
Maybe I've been there before.
Um, just being able to create, um, uh.
Opportunities for students to,
you know, feel like they have
a, I guess, community church.
Like, you know, back in the old
days when people would know the
local parish minister and um, would,
would feel comfortable walking
into a church, um, creating those
kinds of partnerships so that,
um,
AL: So for the 20?
Yeah, for the 20.
I mean, yeah.
That's interesting.
So for the 25-year-old, um, there,
you know, and this is not that
uncommon a story right now, right?
Like you've got 25 year olds who
are going, I just got a sense
that I need to go to church.
And so if you can smooth that kind of
pathway, um, in a, through, through
kind of relationships, through, you
know, uh, the partnership happening,
maybe there's been a proximity thing,
you know, may maybe, may, maybe
something happens on, at, on site,
at a church, that kind of thing.
But I think what you're saying is, you
know, in this particular instance, can
you grow the familiarity between the,
the graduate of a Christian school or
graduate of an Anglican school and a
local Anglican church?
Is that
right?
Polly: Yeah, absolutely.
And to feel like they have, they
have a place to go like that.
And that they know they're not,
like, I think for a lot of people
they're a little bit worried, like,
you know, what am I gonna wear?
Or who am I gonna talk to?
Or am I allowed to go?
Or, you know, all those
kinds of questions, if
that's kind of taken care of.
And if they go, yeah, yeah, I know,
I know a church that I can walk into.
Or maybe they're getting married
or maybe they're thinking about
baptizing their kids or whatever it is.
And they have, they have a familiarity.
Um.
To, yeah, to their local churches is
kind of, I think a, a big picture.
What I'd like to see, I think we're, we're
acutely aware of schools ministry work,
is that even if, um, students come to
a saving faith, um, at school, that um,
we wanna get them plugged into long-term
faith communities, um,
AL: just to, just to make it really
clear, like the, the, it sounds like what
you're saying is that the, A school is
the temporary faith community, right?
Like, it it can't, it
can't be the final destination.
Yeah,
Polly: Yeah, absolutely.
And it's, it's actually not going to
have the, the depth or the breadth
that a church community can offer.
It's not going to have the,
um, intergenerational aspect.
It's not going to be able to
provide the same teaching.
Um, it's not going to be
able to help navigate.
Um, significant issues
of life in the same way.
And so really, like as school ministry
workers, our goal is not to, our goal
is to, to, to, um, make Christ known
and for people to become Christians,
but also to be discipled well, and
we can do bits of that at school, but
really, um, to have that longevity
in their faith, they're gonna have to
be, be connected in a, in a church in
vast majority of cases.
AL: it, it sounds like you, you're saying
like it's not a deficiency in a schooling,
in a school ministry setting to kind of
go, okay, well we're not going to be able
to do discipleship as well as another
place, but what, but, but, um, it's
not a deficiency, but it is a reality.
Is that right?
Polly: Yeah.
absolutely.
And that's not what we are built for.
Um, you know, the discipleship
that I am doing at school is, um,
half an hour on a Thursday, um, to
150 students, which is fantastic.
Um, but it's not, um, the same
as that same student going
and having a group of nine.
Girls with, you know, a leader and,
um, to be able to, you know, sit
on a Sunday for a few hours and,
and talk about the Bible together.
It's just not, it's not ever gonna
be, we're not ever gonna be able to
provide that, um,
AL: gonna be, there's gonna be a
more concentrated and sustained
discipleship opportunity in a local
church.
Polly: Absolutely.
yeah.
Yeah.
yeah.
Yeah.
And I mean, I'm sure like, I, I, yeah,
I don't wanna, I'm sure that other
schools might have even more robust or
lengthy or deep discipleship structures.
Um, I'm just, I guess speaking
from my experience that it's,
it's just not gonna be as, um,
as helpful as the church.
AL: Well, and, and I, I presume
partly that's because schools have
so many other things that they also
must do to be a school like you.
You know, like, uh, you know, you've,
you've got to teach maths and science
and all that sort of stuff, and
you, and you can, some schools will
do that through a Christian lens.
Some, some will, um, do, do that
to a lesser degree, depending on
philosophy and all that sort of stuff.
And yet there are just some realities.
Some hard realities about, you know,
what is a school and what is a school
for and, and that kind of thing.
And so this partnership
idea is so, is so key.
Um, you know, the idea that both
churches might help, uh, sorry
that churches might help schools in
their industry, but but also that.
Schools might help churches
in their ministry as well
and be in that partnership.
I love that idea of the
symbiotic relationship.
Um, what, what do you think are
the, I mean, you started to talk
about some of the barriers there.
Like what do you think are
the, the, the barriers like
for good partnership there?
Polly: Um, I actually did a survey at
the start of my role to all of the,
um, chaplains and schools ministry
workers that I had access to, and
I had about 50 or so responses.
And, uh, that was a question that
I asked about, you know, it, it, it
was unanimous that people did want,
um, stronger relationships with their
local churches.
AL: That like, like, just for a sec.
Like, that's,
that's huge.
Okay.
I just like, I like, I just
wanna pause just just for a sec.
I know this is not the point
that you're making, but like.
Polly: yeah,
AL: I, I, think, I think it's really easy
for people in churchland to to kind of
go and for all the reasons that you, you
mentioned to, it's easy for them to go,
ah, like they just don't seem to want.
But actually you, you, your survey,
it was unanimous that people
wanted stronger partnerships with
churches.
Like that's, I I just wanted to
just, just pause on that for a
second.
That's encouraging.
Polly: about reaching out to
a a, a local school, don't be,
you know, um, they're probably
ready and
AL: and
if, if there's, if there's a reason
that partnerships are not like
easy to, to, to cultivate, it's not
because of willingness.
Polly: Yeah.
Correct.
Yeah.
People, people are willing.
Um, the number one issue was
overwhelmingly time, which I
don't think is that surprising.
As I said, if it's not, you know,
the, the work that I've been doing to.
To have partnerships with local churches
has been on top of, um, all of the other
things that I must do, um, which is, you
know, running the lunchtime group and
running chapel services and teaching,
you know, chaplains often have a,
have pretty significant teaching role.
Um, and so, you know, everything
else is just gravy and.
Um, people just thinking, well, how
am I gonna have the time to do this?
Also, just like a practical kind of
mismatch of like when things run,
you know, churches run on Friday
nights and Sundays and schools don't.
Um, so it's not, uh, it's not
an obvious, oh, well, we'll just
all do this together, um, because
we are doing things at different
times and,
AL: Hmm.
Someone has to take time out of
their normal routine
in order to
Polly: Exactly.
You know, a, a school's minister has
to go to a, a church on a Sunday or,
or a, um, youth group on a Friday
night to contribute to that space.
And, you know, vice versa.
You know, I know a lot of, um,
youth ministers and children's
ministers, you know, they're doing
scripture and things like that.
And then if you think, oh, just go
to this other church that you don't,
this other school that you don't have
to go to, um, to help them out, you
know, it's, it's, it's another thing.
So, um, I don't.
Really have a, a silver bullet
because we're all busy and
we've all got things to do.
But I think potentially on either side,
making a really, um, intentional, um,
block of time or, you know, part, part
of someone's role to, to say this is what
they're going do as their role, um, as you
are thinking about what the goals or the
missions are for the year, I think is, is
important.
AL: Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, so it sounds a little bit
like, um, it wouldn't be the worst
thing in the world as, as kind of
jobs evolve and as job descriptions
change and that kind of thing.
Just to have in the back of your mind
if, if you're on the school side of
thing, um, to, to have in the back of
the mind, oh, is there a way for me
to put into my load somehow, somehow
allocation to, um, to kind of put towards.
Intentional partnership with churches.
And same for, um, for youth and
youth and children's ministers.
As they, as their role evolves and as
the conversations have happen about job
descriptions, to have in the back of
their mind that, uh, maybe a, a certain
portion or a a percentage or a couple
of hours or whatever it is, could go to
intentional partnership there, um, would
be a, would be a good thing, like a good
practical kind of thing to be considering.
Polly: Absolutely.
Because if there's time ev even if
it's just on one of those sides,
then there's the ability to do
something and to actually partner.
Um, yeah, especially as things get
started, I think, you know, uh, we've
created some relationships with local
churches and at the start you have
to put in a little bit more effort.
You know, you have to, you have
to go and make yourself available
and, and make yourself known
and all those kinds of things.
And then after some time it,
it, it can kind of settle back
a bit, but
AL: and think things can
kind of get into systems
and kind of routines
and that kind of thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Polly: Yeah.
This is just how we do things now.
You know, people are used to it,
but, um, you know, at the start
they're really having to advocate.
And, and, and, and even just a,
a lot of people just said that
a, a barrier was just like ideas.
And, you know,
not necessarily with churches, but I've
had a lot of meetings with people who
are keen to partner and then go, whoa.
AL: How do I
do it?
Polly: What does that look like?
You know, or like, how
does that look practically?
And then the, the, um, the mental burden
of having to sit and think about what
practically this looks like, even if we
are willing, even if we do have some time,
is just another creative thing that you
have to come up with when you're already
thinking about how to run youth group
and how to deal with whatever issue.
So I think, um.
I think that's what I've tried to
be doing is just to help people have
ideas,
AL: Yeah,
Polly: um, so that they
feel like, oh yeah, that's
probably something I
could do.
That kind of thing.
AL: Well, and I, and I think, uh, like
it is something that's interesting both.
I mean, so I previously was a high school
teacher, so I, like, I, I get some of the
complexities of being in a school setting.
Um, and I've certainly been in youth
ministry and in other pastor, other
forms of pastoral ministry as well.
And something that both of those
roles share is that there is a
great deal of output that happens.
Right.
You know, so you, you're constantly
writing something or preparing something
or in order for it to be delivered,
whether it's in a classroom setting
or in a, in a youth group setting or
in a, you know, I'm doing a sermon.
And so the idea of sitting crea
and thinking up creative ideas
again, like it's a, however.
Um, where, where you can put people in the
same room to brainstorm things together.
Sometimes that can kind of be where
the creative stuff stuff happens.
You know, there's energy that, that
kind of, that is created, uh, in that
partnership in
a sense.
Polly: Mm mm Yeah, definitely.
Um, I'd love to share some
ways that I've been kind of
spruiking, if that's, if you think that's
AL: give us, give us
all the tips.
That'd be great.
Polly: Well, I mean, and again,
these are just ideas that I hope,
hopefully these are things that I've
either seen work really well or that
I'd like to see work really well.
Um, and, you know, people
are doing these things.
I don't wanna discredit, um, some of the
really great partnerships that are, are,
going on, um,
AL: if these
aren't new, they're gonna be
helpful for people as they
listen.
Polly: Yeah.
Great, great.
Um, so I think sharing speakers
is always very helpful.
Um, I think we're all, you know,
sometimes, um, burdened by the, the
preaching load and having, um, a new
fresh face to come in can be really.
Great.
I've, um, had the pleasure of
speaking at a few youth groups
and churches around the place and,
um, likewise having church, yeah.
Particularly youth ministers come and
speak, um, at our chapels is great.
The one caveat I would say is that,
um, some chaplains and some schools are
more hesitant to have guests in because
it's a interesting place to preach
and you have to have a lot of tact.
And so, um, you know,
if you, if you are, uh.
Church minister, uh, if you're a
church minister and you reach out to
a local school saying, Hey, I'd love
to come and preach at your chapel,
um, it might not be immediately.
Yes, absolutely.
Come in.
Um, it might be okay, and here are
some guidelines, or, or, or, let's
talk about this a little bit more.
But I think that that just, just
familiarity and even, um, we're
having a youth minister come.
Probably next term.
And, um, she's coming in because
her youth girls go to our school
and they want her to come in.
But that means that those youth
girls can say, Hey, that's my
youth leader to their friends.
And then their friends have,
you know, a
AL: There's a point
of
Polly: of contact.
Exactly where they go.
Oh yeah, she was okay.
You know, she came and I liked
how she preached or whatever,
and then, and they can go along.
So I think that's, that's a, just a really
quick, easy, visible way to, to do it.
But I think even having chaplains
coming in as, um, mission partners
or, um, being on the prayer point.
List, I think is a really kind of
low hanging fruit way to do it.
Um, if you're a church and you, you know,
shoot an email once a term or say, can
you shoot me an email once a term or
once a month, or whatever it might be
to say, what, what's going on at your
school and what can we be praying for?
Um, there's an awareness
and a visibility that.
This is what we are doing,
you know, next term.
For example, we're having a really big
evangelism push in our lunchtime groups,
and I would love if local churches were
praying for that and thinking, Hey, you
know, if we have, um, students who become
Christians, you know, there's a church
just sitting there waiting in the wings
expecting and
AL: They know, they know what's happening.
They, you know, the, the
youth group is aware and, and
they've been praying for it.
Um, so there's a level
of expectation there.
I mean, I, I, I love that.
I love the idea of, um,
the, those prayer points.
Also then informing the prayers
in the youth ministry as well.
Um, particularly in a, obviously in
a, in a senior school kind of space.
Um, or, uh, like I should
say, a high school space.
Um, for sure.
Yeah.
What
else have you got, Polly?
Polly: Um, I think having more,
uh, I'd like to have local churches
more in lunchtime groups as well.
Um, just to be there as another, 'cause
we get a lot of students who become
Christians through lunchtime groups,
um, and then they're like, I don't
really wanna go to a church, or, I
don't really know what church to go to.
Or, it feels kind of awkward, but
if they've got one of their PE
leaders at their Christian lunchtime
group who's like, Hey, we've
got youth group on Friday night.
Like, that's, that's very easy
in for me.
Um.
AL: what, like, like,
what does that look like
exactly?
Polly: Yeah, so I mean the Christian
and shame groups have run really
differently for from school to school.
Um, but often you'll have older
students leading younger students
with the support of staff.
Um, so sometimes that'll
be running bible studies.
Sometimes it will be leading
up the front and preaching.
And so if youth minister was to
come in to preach, uh, our staff
lead our older Bible studies, which.
Is quite common.
Um, so year 11 and 12 are run by staff.
You know, if we had a, a local youth
minister or, you know, an MTS or, or
some, or some, you know, a trainee, um,
who was able to come in and help out
and, um, run a year 11 or 12 Bible study
midweek, um, that's a, that's a really
easy point of connection, um, for them.
You know, it's half an hour.
It's not, it's not a big commitment.
Um, but I think that that would be a
really, really natural partnership.
Um, I think as well, just even.
Um, when it comes to like the supportive
ministers like meeting up and praying for
each other and sharing, um, you know, I,
I'm sure that even meeting with each other
semi-regularly can even spark ideas for.
You know, ministry and partnership
and how that's gonna look.
You know, if, if I'm saying, oh, you know,
I've got a, I've got a camp coming up and
we need to find some seminar presenters,
and then, you know, a local minister says,
well, I can, you know, help and I can run
a seminar and, you know, um, just, just.
Even, um, at kind of as you said,
getting ministers in the same room
together, church ministers and schools
ministers in the same room saying, Hey,
what's going on for you at the moment?
And, you know, I know someone who
can help or I can help, or that kind
of thing I think is really helpful.
I also, I would really love
to see more shared events.
Um, I know that.
In the north there is, um, a
bit of a push for kind of youth
group events to happen at school.
So, um, bark is gonna host, um, a northern
kind of youth group event at their school.
But even things like, I'm like, we're
prepping for Easter and every Anglican
church in the area is prepping for Easter.
Like, how can we use this
as an opportunity for.
Our students and their families
to go to a church at Easter or
Christmas or whatever it might be.
Um, whether that's an evangelism
thing, whether that's a something for
charity, whether that's, um, even a
pre evangelism, um, kind of situation,
um, being able to, to partner, um, in
those I think would be really good.
AL: Have you got more, like a more on the
list?
Because you can just keep going.
Polly: well, the only other thing
that I was gonna say is like, um,
I'd like to see some more like
cross-promotion of events and activities.
So, um, you know, hey, this youth group
is going to laser tag on Friday night.
Like, we can advertise
that at our school or, um.
Yeah, just, just this is what's
going on in the local community.
Either way.
This is what's going on at school, you
know, um, the school's got a local,
like got a musical going on, like, why?
And a bunch of people from our church
go and support and bring flowers.
You know, like just a, a bit more kind
of, of that real like wholesome community.
Um, support of each other
I think would be really
lovely.
. AL: I mean, Polly, there's, there's
a huge list of, of really, I think,
really helpful practical ideas.
Um, what do you, what would you say to say
the, the, the church worker, um, or for
that matter, the chaplain who has kind of,
you know, they've pushed the barrow on a
number of these different things already
and, and as yet have not had any sort of.
You know, major breakthroughs or
success or that kind of thing.
Like what, what do you do in that kind of
setting where, um, for whatever reason,
it just hasn't kind of got there yet?
Polly: Mm.
I think, um, I wouldn't be
discouraged because I think
that that happens quite a lot.
Um, because of those time
and idea constraints.
Um, I would probably try another church.
Um, if a church was showing
disinterest to me, I would say, okay,
well let's partner somewhere else.
Um.
And yeah, maybe it's just talking
to another thing that came from the
survey was just being able to know
who the right person to talk to was.
So, um, potentially if you're in a
church and you are, um, chatting to
someone who doesn't seem very eager or
enthusiastic, um, or able, there might
be someone else with more capacity.
Um, maybe it's a Christian studies
teacher who's working part-time who's
like, oh yeah, I'm happy to help out.
Um, I, I wouldn't, uh, I would persevere.
For quite some time.
I mean, maybe that says more
to my, um, uh, disposition.
Yeah.
Um, but I mean, continue to pray
and even I, I mean just, just doing
those things that are really low,
low hanging fruit, just saying.
Hey, how, how can we pray for you or
even, um, I, you know, I went on your
school website and I saw that you had a
few things coming up and just letting you
know, our church prayed for you this week.
Um, you know, on your Instagram
it said that year seven were going
on camp and they're going on a,
a crew camp or a YouthWorks camp.
We, we've prayed for that.
Um, I think it doesn't need to be.
Transactional or tit for tat.
It can just be, you know,
we are here, you are here.
Um, and it really slow moving even it
could be a partnership that's developed
over quite a few years and, um,
yeah, not expecting too much too soon
is probably helpful.
AL: yeah, yeah.
I mean, and, and like I said, having
been in, in high schools particularly,
and my wife is a, is a, um, primary
school teacher, and, um, I've been on
both sides of the equation, but I, I
certainly know how busy schools are.
Like, I mean, if, if you've
never worked in a school, um.
Like, just, just so you know,
schools are in intensely busy.
Um, there's stuff happening all the time
and, um, teachers, you know, often, often
are kind of wolfing down their lunch in
the 10 minutes between, you know, the end
of recess when they had a duty or I mean,
even on the way from their duty to, to
their next class and that kind of thing.
And so I think what you say
there about that perseverance,
I think it's, it's, it's key.
And I think particularly like yes.
Yes, people in ministry are busy.
Um, it's a different kind of busyness.
Um, uh, but I think like to have
that kind of sense of, um, yeah, just
understanding from the church side
to just how ridiculously difficult it
is to get hold of people in schools
because, not 'cause they're not willing.
Because there just is a, there's
a, like you cannot be in two places
at once, and so you might have
to, you might have to have a few
goes to, to get hold of the right
person in the school.
Um,
but
Polly: Yeah, I
AL: I think
what I'm hearing you
saying is just keep
trying.
Polly: yeah, I think that's, a
really empathetic perspective.
Um, I think, yeah, as I've said, you
know, schools are keen, um, or at least
school ministry workers are keen and it
might even be that the school ministry
worker feels like they themselves would.
Put more time into this, but the pressures
that they're being expected of by
people who aren't as interested in these
partnerships are, you know, and that
you know, their employer and what they,
what's in their job description doesn't
actually allow for a, a massive scope to
be able to, to respond to those emails
and to, to go into, do those things.
And so, um, yeah, patients and prayerful,
um, support, you know, because.
You know, certainly I've, I've gotten
emails from, from local ministers
who have wanted to connect, and all
I wanna do is drop what I'm doing and
go and, and, and create a partnership.
But, you know, there's, there's
other work that, that I have to do.
And so, um, yeah.
It's, it is often not from,
um, yeah, a disinterest.
It's just, it's
just
a lack of time.
yeah,
AL: yeah, I think, I think that's just
such a valuable thing to remember and
I'm so glad you did that survey because.
You know,
like unanimously, um, you know, in the 50
people that you survey or thereabouts that
you surveyed who are chaplains in schools
or Christian studies, um, teachers,
they, they are willing to partner.
They want to, that the desire is there.
It's the other barriers.
And so
Polly: Yeah, exactly.
AL: and I do think, like, you know, um.
We as, as people in the church
kind of side of this partnership.
Um, yeah, we, we can, we can
remember that and kind of, uh, I
guess bring the compassion that we,
Polly: Hmm.
AL: and, and to keep persevering
and keep trying and, and,
uh, and that kind of thing.
Now that, that kind of brings me to,
the next question that I, I have,
and that is I do think that, um.
As much as, as I think it's right, it's
right that in a partnership , churches
want those in schools to be partnering
with them on their ministry, but
also like there's such a massive
opportunity, , a mission opportunity as
well as a discipleship opportunity in
schools.
You chaplains seriously, like
you work hard, like there's a
lot, there's a lot going on.
How can, how would you say that a, a
youth or a children's minister or people
on the church side of that equation could
support you guys in, in what you're doing?
Polly: I think maybe, obviously
prayer would be fantastic.
Um, just knowing that you have people.
Uh, I, I think another interesting
thing that did come out of the survey
is that people mostly felt supported
in their schools, um, but didn't feel
supported out of their schools by broader
structures or, um, by their churches.
And, um, I think.
Sometimes, uh, people have expressed
to me discouragement when, um, you
know, they'll hear local schools,
public schools being prayed for, which
is fantastic and very, very pro prop.
Paying, praying for our public
schools and, and for SRR teachers, SRE
teachers who do an amazing job, but
to be a school's ministry worker and
think, oh, I just, you know, I had.
40 people on Friday at, you
know, camp who said that they
wanted to become Christians.
And you know, we're not praying for
that, you know, and so I think just
saying, look, we're praying for
you, and, and that kind of thing.
That would be, that would be massive.
Um, just to feel like I have,
um, people in my local church
that I go to on a Sunday who.
Know what I do or who are
supportive of what I do or
who are praying for what I do.
Um, I think that's a, a
great, um, place to start.
Um, I think that there are always
opportunities in schools for people
to come, um, and help and do their
thing, whether it's, um, you know, at
the moment we're looking for someone.
To come and help with our lunchtime group
'cause we don't have enough staff to help.
And, um, or you know, as I mentioned,
you know, we have camps that we
run and having local people to come
in and, and to help with things.
Um, you know, there, there are so
many different ministries that we're
running and so many different things
that we're organizing that, you know,
I'm, I'm barely ever gonna say no
unless I've got a really good reason
to someone in a local church saying,
Hey, I wanna help and I wanna connect.
Um,
So
AL: So if so, so if someone
asks you Polly and you say
No, then there's a really good
reason and
Polly: Well, yeah, I'm trying,
I didn't, I didn't wanna make an
absolute comment there, but I, I
feel like I've said yes every time
at this point, so,
AL: you, you, you're very
positively disposed to
Polly: is there.
Yeah.
exactly.
And so, um, yeah, I, I think starting
with prayer and just, just an
awareness, you know, what's going on.
Talk, talk to the people who are
Christian studies teachers and who are
chaplains in your churches and say,
you know, what's the week been like?
Or.
What have you got coming up?
Um, and they'll, they'll tell you, um,
you know, the, the highs and the lows and
the, um, the things that have happened.
Um, I think that's probably a great
way to, way to start, even if you're,
you know, you're a parishioner and
you just, just wanna show support for
your local schools ministry workers.
Yeah.
AL: Yeah.
Yeah.
Hey, Polly, it's been really good to chat.
Um, I keen to know if, if there's a
youth or a children's minister that wants
to connect to kind of, you know, glean
some, or get some more flesh on their
bones than some of the ideas that you've
put or wants to just get some direction
in, in the the next thing to do, how
might they get in touch with you
. Polly: So you can email
me at p Butterworth.
At anglican dot asn au.
Um, that's my email address
for this particular position.
And so I'll be able to, to get to
that on a Friday, um, once a week.
And, um, yeah, definitely I would love
to talk to anyone who's keen, um, to,
to partner with their local church or
to think about how to do that better.
That is, yeah, definitely
something I'm passionate about.
I'm very happy to talk
about that with anyone.
AL: Hey Polly.
Thank you so much.
It's been really, really
good to chat and, uh, yeah,
looking forward to
seeing how this all goes.
Polly: Yeah.
Thanks so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.