034 How do we know we're on the right track for startup success?

Compliance-as-a-Service startup ETHIX360 might be new to the scene, but its founder and CEO J Rollins has some hard-earned experience to back it up. In his 25+ year career, he’s worked with tiny startups, massive corporations, and everything in between. He joins Brian Gupton on the podcast today to share some incredible insights and lessons he’s learned along the way, including how to jumpstart a concept with limited capital, how to turn losses into learning, defining success as a startup, managing imposter syndrome, and more. He even lets us in on his silver-bullet interview question to suss out cultural fit with new hires. This one is so full of valuable ideas, we can’t possibly fit it all in one blurb. Guess you’re just going to have to join us!

ethix360.com

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Intro: I always asked them what happens if this fails. If this business completely fails, what happens to you? If the bad outcome is not serious enough, I can tell you they are going to fail. The bad outcome has to be so potentially painful that failure is not an option.
Brian: Hello and welcome to the latest installment of ClearView’s Founder Vision podcast. This is Brian Gupton, and I will be your host today. I’d like to welcome our guest for today, Mr. J Rollins. Jay is the founder and CEO of ETHIX360, a compliance as a service technology platform. Welcome, J.
J: Thanks, Brian. It’s great to be here. I appreciate you having me.
Brian: Thanks for joining us. Before we talk a bit about what ETHIX360 does, could you tell us a little bit about your path to founding the company? What’s your background? What led you to start ETHIX360?
J: Great question. I am fortunate that I have been part of several high growth companies in my career where I’ve typically led sales and marketing, or sales or marketing has been sort of the gist of my career to this point. But I’ve been part of a couple of teams where there were IPOs involved, numerous seed round funding, A, B and C round funding, and a little bit of M&A work.
I reached a point in my career where we were looking for an opportunity, looking for the right company in a specific space where we could be highly disruptive, where we could come in and have a big impact, which is what investors are looking for in companies that can come in and be a disruptive force in an industry. That’s where we settled on this particular industry and this particular company and this particular market.
Brian: Interesting. What was the unique insight you had that made you say compliance as a service is something that needs to exist?
J: Pretty simple, compliance had gotten way too hard. It just shouldn’t be as hard as it is. The premise is most companies want to follow the rules. Most companies don’t want to go to court. They don’t want to go to jail. They don’t want to get fines. They want to build a good business with quality ethics behind the company and go forward. That had gotten very, very difficult due to a number of reasons, primarily, fast changing regulations. You are dealing with a lot of regulatory issues, in health care things like HIPAA; Medicare fraud, waste and abuse; and of course all the things we saw in finance, the things that Sarbanes-Oxley brought forth on publicly traded companies. This is accelerating, the amount of regulatory issues companies have to deal with.
With that complexity, companies were having to implement more and more complex, expensive solutions. We saw an opportunity to come in with an affordable, efficient, and effective solution that deployed as a service and that let people take these concerns about being out of bounds on compliance issues, if you will, and be confident so they can focus on their business and not focus on meeting compliance standards for their various industries.
Brian: For the audience out there who might be scratching their head and saying what the heck is compliance and who does that affect, who do you guys primarily service?
J: I’ll give you a couple of real-world examples. Eighty-eight some odd percent of our clients have a regulatory requirement to have a product of this type. For example, all publicly traded companies in America, a SCC requirement, have to have a third party, anonymous whistleblower system so that employees can report instances of financial fraud or financial malfeasance. This is part of SAROX, or Sarbanes-Oxley, so that the SCC can be highly confident in the revenue the company is reporting. Likewise, you have seen issues arise in health care around HIPAA compliance and privacy around your medical requirements. There are requirements that companies have so that when somebody violates that privacy, a company has to have a third-party intermediary to be able to make sure these issues don’t get swept under the rug.
We tend to be that third party, a voice for the voiceless, poor employee that lost out on a discrimination issue or on a sexual harassment issue. That low level finance person that witnessed the CFO doing financial malfeasance or intentionally misreporting financials to Wall Street to overinflate their stock. We tend to be that buffer between that person to be able to take that information and facilitate an investigation into the allegation to determine whether it is credible, and if so, what should be done about it, and to protect companies from violations that they could incur.
Brian: I know you mentioned before that you have been a serial entrepreneur. This is not your first rodeo. I am curious. How did you get from idea to the initial launch for ETHIX360 specifically? What were some of the challenges along the way that may be things that someone looking to start their first company might not be aware of? Just practical things that have to be overcome to get from idea to initial launch.
J: The biggest one is understanding where your financing is going to come from prior to being able to sustain your business on revenue and organic growth. There is a period of time with any startup where you have to invest in front of revenue, and when you invest in front of revenue, you have to define a degree of revenue certainty so that investors will write you a check to allow you to hire those people, build that product, develop a go to market strategy prior to having the revenue to afford it.
Then the challenge is on you as the entrepreneur to be able to achieve those revenue goals so that you can get self-sustaining so you don’t have to continue to take on the continuously dilutive rounds of investment just to meet your survival. For me, as an entrepreneur, that means selecting an industry and a space where there is an opportunity of coming in and making a difference quickly. Because when you are a first mover in a market, you tend to attract early adopter clients. Early adopter clients are willing to take a higher risk on a startup and invest in those products.
The first company I founded, we were building cloned PCs back in the early 1980s when the PC market first started. There was IBM and there was not. We were one of the companies that started importing parts from Taiwan, building personal computers at a fraction of the cost of IBM PCs and being able to meet that need in the market.
Brian: You are giving me flashbacks to when I was a kid and they used to sell those magazines that would basically be 3 inches thick of every different computer component there was.
J: Exactly, we were one of the companies dealing with the same people, only buying pallets of that stuff, and assembling PCs.
Brian: Are you technical? Are you a programmer by background or you were more of a subject matter expert?
J: If you look at my career on whole, my career has largely been built on being very successful in sales and marketing. I use those two terms together intentionally. Yes, I’ve led some high performing sales teams in organizations ranging from a handful of sales reps up to the pleasure of having had a billion-dollar quota and 600 sales reps reporting to me.
On the flipside of the coin is the marketing side of the equation. To me, the marketing is about riding a Thoroughbred. Sales is about leading a mule. Those are two different things. On the marketing side of things, it becomes understanding the addressable market. Where are the gaps in the market? Where is this? Where is your strategy to be able to produce a product that fills the gaps in a way that makes your product compelling to businesses? Once they have your product, why are they likely to keep it, to maintain that subscription and those annual recurring revenues?
Although I am technical in nature enough to be able to manage the development of an organization. I am not a programmer or a technologist I wouldn’t say. I think it is about understanding what the market needs, the requirements are, and then translating that into a blueprint the developers can then build.
Brian: I think there are a lot of founders that come from a similar non-engineering background, and I think there is a lot of those would-be founders kind of get stuck with I’ve got this great idea. I really know my industry but how do I get something built without a lot of money to throw at it. Any advice for founders in that similar situation? How they can get their idea built so they can get the attention of potential investors.
J: I’ve had the fortune of serving on the board as well as advising a number of startups that were in that exact same situation. Oftentimes, founders will have an idea that is the greatest idea they have ever seen that when you get outside of their head, unfortunately it is not such a great idea. The one piece of guidance I would say is validate, validate, validate.
When you believe you have an idea that can change a market or change an industry, before you invest in building a product, before you spend that money, validate the concept. Validate there is a viable market for it. How many people are there that will buy it? What will they pay for it? What is the competitive alternative if they don´t buy your product? How are they going to meet that need outside of your product? How are they meeting that need today? What are their frustrations with the way they meet that need today?
Just don´t have an ideation around a potential product and then go take a second mortgage, your life savings, pay some company to build a prototype for you, and then go and try to fundraise off of a prototype. That´s a recipe to a train wreck. I can tell you having raised money a number of times, investors want to understand what the actual viability is, what the market size is more than they want to see how much your $300,000 live savings built a prototype with an offshore development team in Romania and how cool it looks. That's not how you raise money.
The issue is really getting your arms strategically around what it is you are going to build and validating that your idea really is something the market needs and will pay for.
Brian: Just to push back and play devil’s advocate a little bit there, I think there is definitely wisdom there, but a lot of times investors don’t know. I feel like there are so many business ideas that have been poopooed in the beginning when you just hear the idea. They aren’t really able to be understood until they are built, especially if you are approaching something that’s never been done before. A lot of times when you talk to investors or other people in that space, they may give you 100 reasons why that’s not going to work. Often a lot of great ideas actually I think get abandoned at that stage because of that.
Then somebody comes along who ignores that and builds it anyway. Then the company takes off and is wildly successful. How do you balance the conviction that you as someone who has spent a lot of time thinking about that particular problem and that particular space and feels confident that you are on to something? How do you balance that thought with the people who are naysayers and maybe don’t spend as much time thinking about that particular idea or that particular space? They can only see the reasons why that’s destined to fail.
J: That’s why I use the word validate. I hundred percent agree with that premise of your question. That’s the same thing investors do. For me, as an investor, those are the questions I ask at the table of the entrepreneur. Besides your rose-colored glasses, who else thinks this is a good idea? Why? Where is the actual market research behind this that validates that your idea really is a good idea? You are not looking to invest in an evangelist. You are looking to invest in someone who has captured and proven the viability of an idea so that you can invest behind it.
Obviously, one of the first use of funds you have is to build your prototype. Some people are fortunate enough to have the availability of cash to be able to do that, to be able to hire the developers, to be able to put together the prototype, and that’s fantastic if you do. But some people don’t. A lot of that relates to the complexity of the product.
I’ve been involved in some B2C products where it is relatively easy to get a prototype together. In the B2B world, that’s very difficult to prototype an enterprise class product just to prove a concept. It’s a very, very expensive proposition.
Brian: I’m glad you said that. That was going to be my next question. I think this is another place where people get hung up, especially non-technical founders. If you are a technical founder and you have an idea, you can go build it yourself. You don’t necessarily need to rely on someone else to help you get a prototype or an MVP or V1 of your product.
But for the non-technical folks out there, if they are self-funding, how much money do they need to get to a point where there is enough proof of concept whether it is a prototype or MVP that they can go raise some angel funding or seed funding? How much should they expect to have to come out of pocket? Maybe it is a range, and there is a low, medium, high and it depends on the complexity of what you are trying to build.
I am curious. What should I be able to pull out of my wallet if I am going to self-fund to get to that?
J: Very fair question. It is a range. You are right. A lot of it depends on the complexity of the product, and how much of the product management you are also outsourcing. Are you able to design the UNI yourself?
I’ve typically seen that anywhere from $200,000 to $250,000 dollars on the low side up to $500,000 to $600,000 dollars to be able to get a reasonable prototype out, to be able to prove and show an investor something the way the product will work and also to show potential customers. Don’t forget the prototype, whether it is prototype or an MVP, that is absolutely to help you raise money. That’s also to help you do your market validation to be able to show that to customers.
There’s a funny story. One of the products we build here at ETHIX360, we developed the product, and we went and showed it to a large Japanese company, a global name you would recognize. In the presentation, they said we will buy it. We said we wish we could sell it to you, but this is a prototype. It doesn’t work. They said yeah, but what you are prototype does do is so cool that the stuff you haven’t figured out yet is not the hard part. What you have figured out in your prototype was the hard part. What’s the database on the backside? Give us access to the data. We will figure out the reporting and analytics. You figure out the cool part.
When you do that and then you have that validation and that globally top five auto manufacturer saying we want to buy this and you take that in front of an investor, you have a much stronger story. In fact, that led to our initial seed funding round five years ago.
Brian: For the people out there that heard $200,000 to $250,000 K and just got seriously deflated because they don’t have access to that kind of capital personally, what kind of gorilla hacks can you do to get something that feels like a working prototype and that at least can show potential customers, potential investors the idea and something a little more tangible? What are some things that people that don’t have access to that level of capital can do to get something that resembles a working prototype?
J: A company that I started also many years ago with the developers that we use, we cut the developers in on equity. Oftentimes your $250,000 to $500,000 k doesn’t have to be in cash. There are a number of folks out there, good, high-quality organizations that will barter, if you will, for that and be able to let you share equity and other parts of the company with them. I have had companies where I have had the developers build something and not only in exchange for equity and in exchange for if this gets funded, you will become our CTO or you will leave and become developers for us if they weren’t happy where they were. Don’t confuse the $250 k with cash. Confuse that with value.
Part of that is also having developers that believe in what you are doing so that they put forth their best effort. Sometimes if all you do is pay cash, you don’t actually get the best product. But if you get somebody who is invested in the outcome of the solution, that’s really, really good, too. I’ve seen some very good products that hit the market. Maybe there was $500,000 dollars’ worth of value to build the MVP, but there wasn’t a dime of cash exchanged in that.
Brian: As you were getting ETHIX360 built and launched, were there any unexpected challenges that popped up, things you didn’t foresee, that maybe you hadn’t dealt with in other startups you have been associated with? Things someone starting a company now might not consider because maybe they weren’t problems in the past, but things you have run into in the last four or five years that might be relevant to someone just starting out.
J: Oh gosh. We need another podcast to go down that road. One other piece of guidance I would give any entrepreneur. I have a journal and I put my notes in my journal daily. The last page of my journal is literally titled shit to never do again. That’s where I put my mistakes. I intentionally put them there and write them down with a pen in my hand, so they engrain in me. When I fill that notebook up and go to my next notebook, the first thing I do is copy that list into the next notebook. Now it is the last three pages of my notebook is a list.
Make sure that every loss is a learning. Too many entrepreneurs don’t do that. They will do something. They will realize they made a mistake, but they are not intentionally classifying that as to why that mistake happened and avoiding that mistake in the future. They make repetitive mistakes. Probably the biggest one for me that has been pretty consistent has always been around not having sort of 360-degree vision around the things from outside your business that are going to impact your business.
An obvious one from that that everybody can relate to right now is COVID. When people were doing business plans in January and February of 2020, everybody was projecting 100% growth, blah, blah, blah. It was going to be a banner year. It was going to be the greatest year, etc. March 10th happens. All of the plans go out the window. A lot of people lost their businesses as a result of not having sufficient things to fall back on during a bad situation.
Having great hair helped. I lived through 1989. I lived through 1999. I lived through 2000. I lived through 20008. It forced me to always be protective of what I had. We actually had 40% growth and doubled our head count during COVID. But in prior years I lost my businesses as a result of outside impact. Part of it is what the TV show says, expect the unexpected. Things are going to hit you, and if you are not ready to take a shot, that’s always the one that gets you is the one that you did not defend against.
Brian: How do you define success when you are an early-stage startup? You may be pre-revenue. You are getting along. You are building whatever you are building. How do you know that you are doing it the right way and you are on the path to success?
J: I think achievable goals are important. It is important to have goals. You want to have some moonshots out there you hope you hit, but you also want to have some roof shots that are not going to be easy, but you know you can make it. You want to set achievable goals and you want to validate those goals with others. Don’t just create your own goals. Have board members you can trust, and you can respect that have been there, done that. Have advisors who have been there, done that so you can talk to them about your goals, talk to them about your KPIs to measure how you are achieving against those goals.
Keep your eye on those balls. Don’t make your only goal going public and being a billionaire. You have got to have incrementable goals in between. Achieving those goals will fuel you as a leader and as an entrepreneur. They will also remind you of your path. They will be the lights along your path, if you will, to make sure you are going where you need to go when you set those little goals all along the way. I would say that’s the biggest single thing, set the goals, validate the goals with others, make sure that everybody sees, like the old footprint on the floor when you are learning how to dance, that those footprints will make a dance.
Brian: How have your priorities shifted overtime as far as what you stay focused on and what you have the business focus on?
J: My priorities in this business in particular are focusing on the people and the culture of the company. There have been times where we probably could have hired someone who maybe had better credentials or maybe had more experience, but they didn’t feel like the right cultural fit for the business. You are going to have enough challenges and threats coming from outside the walls against the startup. You are trying to build revenue. You are trying to build a reputation. You are trying to build investment. You are trying to do all these things outside your company. You can’t afford to have an enemy inside the walls.
Managing the culture of your business starts with how you hire people and how you treat people as a leader, and the level of respect that you give your employees, the level of guidance and mentorship you give your employees as well as what your expectations are for employees in the way they behave and the way they interact with each other. I think earlier in my career as a younger entrepreneur, if you will, it was all about my great idea and what I have to do to take the hill, charge and everything else be damned and push it out of the way. I think now with a little grey hair and some things that some people might call success on my resume, it is more important to me to make sure I put the right people in place and that everybody is rowing the boat in the same direction.
I don’t think I can overstate that enough, the importance of managing the culture and the human capital inside your business.
Brian: What are some of the daily, weekly, monthly, whatever habits that you have gotten into that help facilitate that?
J: Communicate, communicate, communicate. During the interview process, make sure you are talking about culture, make sure you are asking questions that will reveal if somebody is going to be likely to thrive in a collaborative culture and in a supportive culture or somebody who is going to resist it. Once you are there, talk to your people. I try to talk to everybody on the team as often as I can and have one-on-one conversations to make sure that they understand that I sincerely care about them as people. I want to make sure they are happy at work, they feel like they are learning, they feel like they are contributing, and they are helping the company grow, but I want to make sure they are okay.
I think that has never been as true as it has been in the last year where people have faced such tragic loss of life with relatives, friends and COVID, the social deprivation people got from being alone and picking up the phone, calling your employees and talking to them, letting them know I appreciate you, I appreciate your focus, I care about you as a human being. Just believing that is important but demonstrating that is even more important. I think the way your employees treat you changes, and you get a much higher degree of honesty and openness with your employees when you really build those relationships.
Brian: It is amazing how far a simple thank you, I appreciate the work you are doing goes with people. Often it is better than giving somebody more money. People just want to feel appreciated.
J: When they know it is sincere, it is so much better still. Don’t do it because you think it is really important to walk around and thank people. Do it because you are thankful. Do it because you are grateful for the contributions people make. They don’t have to work here. Everybody that works for ETHIX360 is a highly qualified, talented, intelligent person. Every single one of them could work somewhere else if they wanted to, but every one of them works here. There is a reason. They feel appreciated. They feel like they are contributing. I appreciate them.
Brian: That’s great. Do you have a go to interview question that you are saving that question up throughout the whole interview because you know how the person answers that question is going to tell you if this is someone I want to build this business with.
J: I have a couple. It depends on what I am interviewing for, but the one that I use a lot that is probably the most telling is: When did you know you were an adult?
Brian: Can you say that again?
J: When did you know you were an adult?
Brian: Oh wow. I still don’t know.
J: Exactly. You get a range of answers there from when I turned 18 to when my father died and I had to take over financial responsibility for the family to when I graduated college to when my first child was born, but the perspective I am looking for there is how people understand and accept accountability because in a startup you are really counting on everybody to do their job. There are not enough hours in the day for people to not do their job.
When I ask that interview when did you know you became an adult, the answer there is really an answer about understanding personal accountability. That is what I am teasing out of that question when I ask it. I will always slide that one in.
Of course, the one that a lot of people do, I don’t take credit for it, is to ask people: What questions do you have for me? If at the end of the interview the person says I don’t really have anything, you covered everything, they weren’t prepared for the interview. They didn’t care enough to be respectful of my time to prepare for the interview. That’s a big red flag for me. When people pull out their list, when they say I am glad you asked, and they open up their book with questions, I love this. This is somebody who spent time preparing to interview me, not just me to decide if I want them to work here, but they are actually making an intelligent, informed decision if they want to work here. I want that person on my team.
Brian: You just verbalized something I’ve always felt. If somebody doesn’t come with a boatload of questions, they are probably not the right fit. They didn’t really care enough to prepare. I think you nailed it there. What is the funnest part of starting your own business, the piece you enjoy the most?
J: Oh gosh, I think in this one, for example, it’s culture. We are a shorts and flip flops to work, bring your dog, wear crazy masks on Halloween, have fun, have team lunches where you just go grab a bucket of chicken and sit in the conference room and talk and tell jokes. I think for me the thing is the comradery, the feel of being in, use whatever metaphor you want, being in the dugout with the rest of the team or being in the trenches with the rest of the soldiers. Whatever the metaphor is, that’s the one that gives me the most joy.
Brian: What’s the thing that gives you the last joy?
J: Realizing I made a bad hire. That’s going to happen from time to time. Fortunately, I have been around in the business world for a long time, so the majority of my key hires are people I’ve worked with at other places or in the past. That’s fortunate for me. Not everybody is in that situation where they have a rolodex of folks because most of them are not old enough to know what a rolodex is, so they get that cliché.
But if you understand what that means but still there is going to be some slots you have to fill with people you have never known before, you try to do your best job vetting them, but you still make mistakes. Coming to that realization you made a bad hire is something you have to learn to deal with quickly and acknowledge. You can’t fix those. You have to move on from people, and that’s always a tough conversation.
Brian: Other than bad hires, is there anything in the years you have been building ETHIX360 that you wish you had just done differently?
J: I was talking to one of our investors a couple months ago, and he said J, I want to compliment you on one thing, on being capital efficient. I said my wife calls it cheap. He goes I like that better. When you look around our office, we have a nice office, a respectable office, a comfortable office, but we didn’t go out and blow every penny we had to have brand new chairs, desks and things. I think when I look back at it, I think there are probably some areas I should have spent a little bit more aggressively. I think that would probably be the one when I look to opportunities and I was too fiscally conservative but having been through a number of startups in recession eras, I’m that guy who doesn’t want to run the car out of gas.
Brian: For those folks out there that are looking to start their first business or maybe they just started it and they are trying to get launched or get it to scale, inevitably feelings of doubt or feelings of imposter syndrome creep in. You have been a serial entrepreneur, so maybe you are beyond those feelings. If you could think back to when you were first starting with some of your first startups, how did you manage those feelings? Do you still feel them today?
J: I was going to say they never go away, Brian. For me, I still feel that every day. I think that when I talk to younger entrepreneurs and when I speak to entrepreneur groups or mentor any of the organizations that I serve on their board or as an advisor, I always ask them: What happens if this fails. If this business completely fails, what happens to you as a human being? Does that devastate you financially or your marriage? What’s the bad outcome here if this fails for you? If the bad outcome is not serious enough, I can tell you they are going to fail. The bad outcome has to be so potentially painful that failure is not an option because if you don’t have that level of necessity in succeeding, you will quit too soon.
I can tell you at ETHIX360, for example, the initial acquisition of the company was me at the beginning. I was funding it before we received anything else. I knew what losing that meant to my family, and so I understood what my debt was on the table. There were a lot of things I was willing to do in order to make sure that we succeeded from a level of effort standpoint. I was willing to accept 16-hour days, 7 days a week for years on end because without that kind of commitment, if there was nothing to lose on the table, there are times I would say this is just not worth it. It is too hard. Making sure your bet makes you obligated to succeed as a small business owner because otherwise you will fail. You can’t do this as a part time thing.
Brian: Who do you turn to for advice when things get a little stressful or when things get uncertain, and the future is hard to see if success is around the corner or pretty far off? Who do you turn to for advice at that point?
J: I’m going to answer your question directly, but I will also give a little bit of a heads up to younger entrepreneurs. Your subordinates in the company are not the people that you have that conversation with because they will start to lose faith. You can disrupt that. You have to build a network of individuals. In my case, I am more fortunate because I’ve been around a while. Being the CEO of a startup is a very, very lonely job. Your board is going to have very high if not unreasonable expectations of your performance. Your employees have to believe you can walk through a wall to make something happen, and your customers have to have confidence to write you checks. You cannot expose you are having any self-doubt to any of those constituencies.
My best guidance is develop a network of other CEOs. I am in several CEO work groups, for example. Some of them are guys that I know really well and have for a long time. Some of them are not. But we all have one thing in common. We are all CEOs of a startup. We are accountable to employees. We are accountable to boards. We are accountable to customers. We make ourselves accountable to each other so we can do inside those share groups a sort of sacred bond inside the wall of the conversations you can have where you are allowed to expose yourself.
I would just warn my younger entrepreneurs that are just thinking about this for the first time, be careful who you expose yourself to. Be smart about that.
Brian: What’s on the agenda for ETHIX360 over the next 12 to 18 months? What are you guys hoping to accomplish?
J: We are fortunate. We have achieved some really nice financial accomplishments. With the exception of COVID, we have pretty much 100% year over year growth. We have hit our revenue growth and targets and things like that. We are at the point right now where our revenue targets are getting very, very aggressive. We are turning the corner on the proverbial hockey stick. We have really, really high expectations for 2022. I think we have the pieces in place to do this. We have a great product that is well received by the market and the analyst community. We have high regard from our clients as far as our level of service.
We are all about for the next 18 to 24 months sales execution. This is all about growth in both annual recurring revenue and client count.
Brian: That’s fantastic. We wish you the most luck and hope to follow up with you in a year or two and see where you guys are at. Thanks so much for being a part of this, J.
J: Thanks, Brian. Thanks for having us. You have a great day.
Brian: You as well. Thank you all.