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Career education is a vital pipeline to high demand jobs in the workforce. Students from all walks of life benefit from the opportunity to pursue their career education goals and find new employment opportunities. Join Dr. Jason Altmire, President and CEO of Career Education Colleges and Universities (CECU), as he discusses the issues and innovations affecting postsecondary career education. Twice monthly, he and his guests discuss politics, business, and current events impacting education and public policy.
Jason Altmire [00:00:05]:
Welcome back to the Career Education Report podcast. I'm Jason Altmire, and given the election year in which we now find ourselves, it has been incredibly disappointing to see the polarization in the country, the misinformation coming from all sides, the fact that we're not able to argue and debate and even talk about issues in many cases in a civil way. And our guest today is from an organization that you will be very glad to know exists. It is an organization that, among other things that it does, it assists colleges and universities and their students in critical thinking, in helping to debate and argue issues in a less combative way and in a way that the students come away understanding different points of view. And I'm just, I'm thrilled to have Aiden Kestigian as our guest. She's the vice president of ThinkerAnalytix, and if you hadn't heard of it, it's an education nonprofit that is a spin off from Harvard University's philosophy department. And they do a lot of work, as I said, with universities, colleges and schools related to topics related to logic and critical thinking. So, Aiden, thank you very much for being with.
Aidan Kestigian [00:01:29]:
Oh, it's my pleasure to be here. Thank you.
Jason Altmire [00:01:32]:
Can you. Let's start, because many people probably have not heard of ThinkerAnalytix. Can you give a more broad definition of what the organization does?
Aidan Kestigian [00:01:40]:
Yeah, absolutely. Maybe the easiest way is to start with a sort of problem statement, a problem that we're trying to address, and it's a problem that crops up in many different areas of everyday life, and it kind of evidences many different symptoms. So you mentioned elections and politics. So we hear very often that people feel as though politics is uncomfortable. It feels quite polarized, and that groupthink is kind of rife. Right. So that's. That's kind of one thing we hear very, very often.
Aidan Kestigian [00:02:14]:
Another is that people feel overloaded by headlines, by clips, by threads, by just kind of social media in general and just the kind of deluge of information coming at them on a daily basis. And a third that we hear about a lot from the colleges and universities that I work with, as you mentioned, is that students feel, or seem to feel quite checked out and that educators are looking for a fix, a way to kind of engage them in the kinds of conversations that they want to have about important issues. Often what we hear is people say things like, you know, people just don't listen or they just don't think clearly. Right. They're just not doing it. They're not doing the work. Right. That maybe we hope they would but at ThinkerAnalytix, we have a bit of a different diagnosis.
Aidan Kestigian [00:03:06]:
We have a little bit of a different view. And to us, when we look at this kind of wide array of issues, we see a shared thread, which is that most people, including actually half of graduating college students, actually just never learned how to do these things. They never learned how to think clearly about, for example, controversial political issues or how to communicate about them with precision. And that's exactly what we try to do at ThinkerAnalytix, is to help students do that and help their educators move them in that direction. So we like to say we're trying to revolutionize education to teach clear, careful reasoning. If we had to give kind of one tagline.
Jason Altmire [00:03:48]:
And you are a graduate of Carnegie Mellon University, and I'm sure you're aware there is a course at Carnegie Mellon University which is very famous locally, and it's called Dangerous Ideas in Science and Society and is one of the most popular courses at that university. And what it does is it brings students together and forces them to learn and talk about the hottest of the hot button issues, issues like abortion, gun control, immigration. And to many, including me, before I learned more, that seems like a formula for a really unpleasant experience if you're an instructor in that class. But the whole point of the course is teaching students how to do arguments in a way that they're presenting their own opinion. They're learning more about the other side than they otherwise would have known. They're gaining exposure to different points of view. And, you know, we live in a nation that's polarized. College students, many of them, of course, grow up in a political household one way or the other.
Jason Altmire [00:04:56]:
What have you observed in your own work and experience in students ability to argue and debate and to process and seek information before they're exposed to the learning experience and how to do that more effectively?
Aidan Kestigian [00:05:12]:
So I can talk from my own experience and also just from kind of the research that's out there. As you mentioned, I went to grad school at Carnegie Mellon. I had the great fortune of being able to teach. While I was there, I taught some different college courses to undergraduates on politics and ethics and, you know, really controversial stuff. And what I found was that kind of contrary to what many believe, students wanted to engage those issues. They wanted to be able to have conversations about them and to learn about other people's perspectives on those issues. So they were eager and they were motivated, which I think is sometimes kind of a misconception about college students, that they're just not interested. They're Shut off.
Aidan Kestigian [00:05:56]:
They just don't, they don't want to engage. So that was interesting to me that there was a motivation. The problem was that they didn't have the skills or the tools to do it. So they were motivated to do something, but fearful of it because they didn't have the right toolkit to engage those conversations in a kind of process driven or they didn't really have the norms to do it. Right. They just didn't have the stuff that they needed to debate and discuss and have dialogue in a way that was kind of organized and in their eyes, kind of respectful. So there was a gap. Right? There's a skill gap there.
Aidan Kestigian [00:06:37]:
They needed practice with it. That was what I found.
Jason Altmire [00:06:41]:
And I saw something in an article I read where you were quoted and you said that students, they want to debate and they look forward to getting into the difficult, more controversial subjects. And you said that you think that's a positive. And you know, can you explain why you think that's positive? And you said that disagreement can be productive in the learning experience.
Aidan Kestigian [00:07:07]:
Absolutely, yes. At ThinkerAnalytix, we start from the assumption that exchanging reasons, even competing or directly opposed reasons that we have for our beliefs can be productive. It can be a moment of learning at a minimum. Right. So if you and I are debating a policy and we are completely opposed, even if neither of us changes our minds, I can nevertheless learn something from the exchange. Right. I can maybe develop a deeper understanding of the topic than I had before because I don't hold all the true beliefs in the world. Right.
Aidan Kestigian [00:07:45]:
You certainly know something about the topic too, that I can learn from. And so that's kind of our starting point, is that argumentation, which sometimes can include disagreement, is fruitful. And in fact, you might go so far as to say it's kind of like the foundation of democracy. That's like how we make decisions. It's how we decide what policies should be law. And so with that as the backdrop, the question becomes how can we enable and empower the next generation of political decision makers and business decision makers, namely our students, to reason through those big choices? Well, right. How do we put them in a position to do that?
Jason Altmire [00:08:26]:
And a growing consensus in academia and I know in the work that you do, is that argument mapping is a key to solving this issue. And I'll let you describe what it is, but very generally it involves learning about the issue in which you are debating, because many people bring only their own perspective. And it learns, you know, teaches you how to learn about the other perspective. But that'll be the next question. But before that, I wanted to ask you a related issue. I've done a lot of research. I wrote a book about the topic of political polarization. And one of the things that stuck with me in the research into that was repeatedly studies have shown, dozens of studies universally, that the people who are the most certain of their own opinion in politics are the people who know the least about the subject in which they are so certain.
Jason Altmire [00:09:22]:
And I remember a bunch of studies, one involved welfare reform, where they brought people together from both sides of that issue, all political perspectives, and they tested their knowledge in very complicated issues. What is the financial cap in different states? How do you draw welfare? What are the different types questions that very few people would actually know the details of. And they found, then they asked people their own certainty that they knew a lot about the subject, and they found direct correlation. The people who had the most certainty were the people who knew the least about the subject. So when you go into something like argument mapping, which we'll describe in a second, it's kind of important that people are open minded and willing to learn more and understand that they don't have all the answers. What's been your experience in dealing with students who may be even more susceptible to that, given that they've really not been exposed to the other side?
Aidan Kestigian [00:10:22]:
Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, certainly there's the kind of caricature of a college student that's kind of overconfident in their beliefs, you know, marching into class on the first day, kind of ready to debate. I think, though, for the vast majority, you know, often that's still an age where students are still forming their political identities. They're still learning, they're taking in an incredible amount of information, much more than I did when I was a college student. And so I think, I don't know that the caricature really holds up as a kind of correct picture of what the average college student is like. It might just be a feature of where I've taught that I've just been really kind of, you might even say just like blessed to have really amazing students who are open to discussion and dialogue. But I will say the one thing I do see is that they're excited, but there's also some fear of opening yourself up to that kind of conversation with other people. Right, where you're discussing politics, for example.
Aidan Kestigian [00:11:17]:
And there's actually some recent evidence that students want to do it, but they actually fear retribution for voicing their views in class. And that's a Huge problem. Right? That's, that's, that's a real concern. And it strikes at the hearts, I think, of educators everywhere that students might be fearful to, to ask a question or voice an opinion in class. And so from the kind of thinker analytics perspective, what we see is like a need for support, a need for like protocols, like things that we can all kind of fall back when a controversial issue comes up where we can say, okay, we know we probably have different views on this. How can we get our views on the table in kind of a systematic way so that we come to an understanding and don't kind of devolve into a worst case scenario shouting match?
Jason Altmire [00:12:02]:
So talk about argument mapping. How does it work? What does it seek to achieve and what are the results?
Aidan Kestigian [00:12:09]:
Argument mapping is a pedagogical, a teaching method that's been around for over 100 years. Actually. It's a process and a toolkit really, through which students learn how to see, almost like with a superpower, the internal logic of their own views and the logic of other people's views. And that can be really powerful because it helps you gain a really deep understanding of other people's perspectives. At its most basic level, an argument map is a visual. It's a kind of picture drawn on a canvas where we have a series of boxes that are connected by lines. And I hope folks will Google argument maps just so they can see, see a picture. I know this is an audio format, but basically what a map is is you.
Aidan Kestigian [00:13:04]:
At the top of an argument map goes the conclusion or thesis or main claim of an argument which is just the author or speaker's main point. Right? That maybe we should increase taxes or our university should change the dining hall options. Right. Whatever the claim is that we're arguing about, a stipulated main claim goes at the top, and then below we draw out the reasons that the author or speaker has for that conclusion. So basically all you're doing is just clarifying and really making visual the thinking behind someone's view in a way that's often hard to track if you're just listening and trying to keep track of what someone's saying in a discussion or debate.
Jason Altmire [00:13:49]:
And when you look at, you can picture the divergence. You have the hypothesis or the issue at the top, and then you have the pro and the con, and they go in different directions. And underneath it includes the arguments in support and opposition to those issues, assumptions that proponents of those either side would bring to the argument. And then it includes expert opinions and accepted facts which are often different than the assumptions. And that helps the student just by itself. But when you can look at it that way, what is the impact to the student in coming up with reasons to support their own claim and opening their minds to the fact that maybe I don't know everything? Maybe there's more to the story. And this is really interesting information that you're providing me.
Aidan Kestigian [00:14:42]:
So in the case where we're mapping a student's argument. Right. An argument for something that they're kind of advocating for, often what's included is actually just what they offer, just their reasons or their beliefs. Say, if we're having a class discussion about it, we can introduce expertise, opinion, and kind of fact check things as we go. That's certainly an option. I guess the power of it that I would offer is that when you put an argument, especially a controversial one, up on a canvas on kind of an. What you might call kind of a neutral space, what it allows us to do is ask questions about it. Right.
Aidan Kestigian [00:15:22]:
Is that piece of evidence you offered true? We can look it up. Let's look it up. And collectively, as a group, try to come to an understanding of whether we think that thing is true or not. We can also ask, like, are these reasons sufficient? Are they strong? Is this a strong argument for the claim that's being advocated for? So what happens when you take an argument out of a person and you put it instead, maybe on a screen or on a blackboard, it then becomes an object that we can kind of poke at. We can ask questions about it, and it becomes less about the person who maybe offered it in the first place. Maybe it's a student in the class. Maybe it's a. An article we read for homework.
Aidan Kestigian [00:15:59]:
It becomes more about our collective ability to analyze it. It becomes almost like a joint task in analyzing an argument map.
Jason Altmire [00:16:10]:
So you can bring two students with different opinions together, and they can work on the argument map together, or the class as a whole, where invariably you're going to have differences of opinion.
Aidan Kestigian [00:16:21]:
Yeah. Or even different campus groups. Right. Who are coming together to try to make a decision about a campus policy. You might want to bring them together and have them look at a map and discuss and debate. They make really great centerpieces for dialogue and debate, even. And as you noted, I mean, you can collaborate over them, and collaboration is key. Right.
Aidan Kestigian [00:16:43]:
It makes the task a joint task, as opposed to kind of a combative you versus me kind of task. Yeah. And so we've heard from educators that they're incredibly powerful. And the reason why we actually teach Mapping in the first place is because research told us it was the best way to teach critical thinking skills far and away. And so that's why we picked it up and ran with it because it's incredibly research backed and it's having an impact in classes around the country.
Jason Altmire [00:17:12]:
And that's important. When you talk about research skills, we're talking about it kind of from the political perspective just because it's on everybody's minds. But really you're teaching this is a life skill. These are, for the most part, young adults, people who are learning and are going to grow in their life and their, you know, their businesses and their families. And you're teaching a skill that is really a game changer for them for the rest of their life.
Aidan Kestigian [00:17:39]:
Oh, absolutely. We've talked about politics a lot, but you know, we're a non political nonprofit organization and our mission is really in the education space because we know that these skills are important in politics and in civics, but also in professions. We know hiring managers are asking more and more for critical thinking reasoning skills. We also know they're critical for academic success. Just think about essays. Essays are arguments. If you don't know how to put together an argument, how to think clearly about it, you won't be able to complete writing assignments or engage in classroom discussions. And as you said, even just personally, how many discussions and debates do families have on a daily basis? So being able to, to have these skills and know you have these skills and be able to deploy them with confidence is key.
Jason Altmire [00:18:30]:
And you're going to be more popular, you're going to make more friends, you're going to turn off people less frequently than if you bring a more argumentative tone. You know, at minimum that that's a benefit to an individual.
Aidan Kestigian [00:18:44]:
I hope so. Yeah. I don't have evidence on that particular one. But we do hope that, you know, the ability to be able to ask really precise questions about what someone else thinks, that that opens up a huge conversation that you might not have had otherwise.
Jason Altmire [00:18:58]:
I wanted to ask you, as we close, about misinformation. And we talked about the argument map and the assumptions and the known facts and what people are thinking before they have this discussion. And sometimes, in fact, often people are espousing information that is just factually inaccurate, it's not correct. And misinformation takes many forms. You see it on social media all the time where people will put out a claim that is just not supported by any evidence and it'll go viral, people will follow it. There's a Lot of debate and discussion in higher education about whether to censor or reduce the exposure to misinformation. The other side of that argument is it's helpful for the students to know and then you can have a conversation about, let's check this or we'll fact check it. Where does ThinkerAnalytix come down with regard to the use of misinformation in the learning experience it can provide in the classroom?
Aidan Kestigian [00:20:04]:
Our organization doesn't necessarily have a statement or a policy line on, on this, but I can tell you kind of what we've heard from educators in our network, which is that putting arguments on the table that include either false premises, false assumptions, right misinformation, or true assumptions that just don't quite give you a reason to believe the thing that we're arguing about. Right. That just feel kind of disconnected. Right. Or even irrelevant, nevertheless can be good learning experiences for students. It's helpful to see examples of good argument arguments that contain, you know, all true assumptions and really strong logical steps. But it can also be really helpful for students to see arguments that contain false assumptions and really weak reasoning, weak jumps in their logic. So as an organization, we don't necessarily have a kind of declaration about what schools should do in these cases, but we have heard that having those examples, those models of both good and bad reasoning can be really powerful for students, especially as they leave college and need to reflect back on just examples like what was it I learned Having those kind of touchstones can be really helpful later in life.
Jason Altmire [00:21:28]:
I'm sure there are a lot of people out there listening that are like me and want to learn more about ThinkerAnalytix and, and if they wanted to do so, how would they find you?
Aidan Kestigian [00:21:38]:
Yeah, we do work directly with faculty and leadership at lots of colleges and universities around the country. I would Recommend going to thinkarguments.org that's just the word think and the word arguments.org that's our kind of platform for students. And I hope folks will reach out to us in the chat box that's on that site if we can answer any questions. And we'd love to hear how you're tackling discourse and disagreement on your campus and how we can help.
Jason Altmire [00:22:06]:
And I can promise everyone out there it will be worth your time to check out that website. It's really interesting stuff and hopefully it can be helpful in your classrooms as well. Our guest today has been Aiden Kestigian. She is the vice president at ThinkerAnalytix. Aiden, thank you so much for being with us.
Aidan Kestigian [00:22:24]:
Oh, such a pleasure Jason, thank you so much.
Jason Altmire [00:22:27]:
Thanks for joining me for this episode of the Career Education Report. Subscribe and rate us on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For more information, visit our website@career.org and follow us on Twitter @CECUED. That's at C E C U E D. Thank you for listening.