Maximum Lawyer

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After attending his jiu jitsu professor’s fourth-degree black belt ceremony, Tyson Mutrux reflects on the idea of legacy and what law firm owners can learn from martial arts. In jiu jitsu, lineage and mentorship are central to the culture, with generations of students carrying on the influence of their instructors.

Tyson explores how this idea applies to the legal profession. Many law firms are built around a single rainmaker, which raises an important question: what happens to the firm when that person steps away? Instead of focusing only on revenue or case results, Tyson challenges listeners to think about the lawyers their firms develop and the impact they leave on the profession.

He also encourages firm owners to think with a longer time horizon. By prioritizing mentorship, intentional development, and succession planning, lawyers can build firms that last longer than their own careers and create a lasting professional legacy.


  • 0:02 Attending his professor’s fourth-degree black belt ceremony
  • 3:15 How the ceremony sparked thoughts about legacy
  • 4:46 Whether your firm is built to survive without you
  • 6:49 Lessons law firms can learn from martial arts lineage
  • 10:07 Why mentorship matters in professional development
  • 12:19 Measuring success by the lawyers your firm produces
  • 15:31 Thinking about your firm in a 30-year timeline
  • 18:56 Designing development paths for attorneys
  • 23:10 Imagining what a 100-year law firm looks like
  • 27:31 Building a firm that can outlast the founder


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Creators and Guests

Host
Tyson Mutrux
Tyson is the founder of Mutrux Firm Injury Lawyers and the co-founder of Maximum Lawyer.

What is Maximum Lawyer?

Maximum Lawyer is the podcast for law firm owners who want to scale with intention and build a business that works for their life.

Hosted by Tyson Mutrux, each weekly episode features candid conversations with law firm owners, business experts, and industry leaders sharing real strategies and lessons learned in the trenches.

If you're ready to grow your firm with less stress and more support, this is your next must listen. Subscribe today.

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:02 So last night I had a really awesome opportunity to go to my jiu jitsu professor's fourth degree black belt, black belt ceremony. So he was advancing to from third degree black belt to fourth degree black belt, which is a really big deal. And it was such a cool thing because, I mean, it was a really big event. It was way bigger than I thought it was going to be. I mean, everybody from our gym was there. there were people from other gyms. we had some really big time speakers at spook. So his sensei. So we called him, we call ours professors, and he calls his person a sensei. So the person that taught him, So he was there, he spoke. And then there are two or, I'm sorry, 5 or 6 coral belts in the entire world. Like legit coral belts. and a coral bell takes decades. You have to be. I don't remember exactly all the numbers, but you have to be like a black belt for like 34 years.

Tyson Mutrux 00:01:09 you have to be, like a red belt for like seven years or something. Like it's something insane, like, you see, like these, these guys that spoke were like, in their 70s. Like, one was like 78 years old, which is I mean, it's just an amazing achievement to to be in a martial art like that for that long. It was really cool to hear them speak. And it was like, oh, there's only two of them. It was like two of them had a like 5 or 6 in the entire world, which is an incredible thing. But I mean, that was like those were like some of the guys before him was also kind of cool. Is the guys after him spoke to meaning like parts of his tree. So he had two of his black belts speak. And these are both guys that, so he had sold his first gym to his very first black belt in Brazil, and the guy's name was Professor Joe. He then, and apparently Professor Joe did a like for a while was like, not like getting paid in Brazil because of the guy that was above them.

Tyson Mutrux 00:02:19 And so my professor, Professor Lima, we called Professor Fabio. so his name's Fabio Lima. He he's like, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna find a way to hold him. I'm gonna find a way to to repay you someday. And his way of repaying him was he. He was able to get him to the United States. And he opened a gym underneath my professor in in Jefferson City, which is about 30 minutes from Columbia. And then his other, black, but one of his other black belts, opened that or is has taken over that original gym that Professor Fabio had had opened. So and there's all these parts of his tree that, That sort of popped up, you know, and have continued in his legacy. And it is. He's got a little son, Teo, who's, you know, like five years old, really young. He was there and it was cool. And his wife was there and she spoke. And there were some people from our gym that spoke.

Tyson Mutrux 00:03:15 It was such a cool thing. And it really got me thinking about like, legacy, and legacy for law firm owners. And when it comes to like, founders, we I don't know if we think about I think we think about like, personal legacy. I think that's something that as law firms, we think about. But I don't think we think about it is okay, what parts of our tree are sort of expanding and going out into the legal space, but also like if you compare like the legal space to Something like the tech space. Like there is someone to take over the company and carry the torch into the future for those companies. Typically, when it comes to law firms, that's usually not the case. Like I, I seriously wonder what happens to Morgan and Morgan whenever John Morgan's gone. Now I'm guessing one of his sons takes over, but, the way he runs things, I don't know. I mean, it's he's he runs it in very much like a business. And and so I wonder, wonder how many, how many of you that are listening or watching, like, like how much do you actually think about that, like passing the torch or is this something that when you retire or you die, God forbid.

Tyson Mutrux 00:04:46 I mean, is the torch extinguished? Like, do you plan on passing the torch? Like, I completely plan on passing the torch. I don't know if it'll be to my kids. I don't that's that's not the plan, right? My kids are going to do what they want to do, okay? They I am not going to put that on them, I know that. I do know that if they want to come into the fold and become part of the firm and work their way up and then eventually maybe take it over, I'm okay with that. However I want them to do, I want them to live their own lives. What I do want to do when I pass, and I want to build a business that's going to that's going to live without me. So when I die, it's going to keep going. and having survival mechanisms built in for my plan if I crash my plane or if I get hit by a bus, I want someone to be able to carry on that torch and continue to operate.

Tyson Mutrux 00:05:41 And I really and so I, I wonder how many other people are like that. And the reason why this matters is because it that how you design your firm matters. It really does. If it doesn't matter what happens when you're gone, you're you're going to design your firm completely different. You just, you don't need some of those. You don't need some of the things that you need when it comes to a law firm that is going to continue on. Like you, you don't need the succession planning when it comes to the firm. I mean, you do need some basic succession planning, especially if you're earlier in your career, but you don't need that long term succession planning where, you know, the firm continues on. Your succession planning is most likely firm closes down. What happens after that? What happens with all the cases? What happens to all the money? But you mean you need definitely need more, more intense succession planning when it comes to your your firm. If you want to continue it on, that's for sure.

Tyson Mutrux 00:06:49 So, I jotted down some questions. I'm almost like I had for my myself, but I almost there. Almost for you too. So I want to go through some of these because I think it's kind of a fun thing because in martial arts, lineage matters. Right. It it does it it was it's a really, really big deal. If you think of it like if you are in the martial arts at all, like, you know who the Gracie's are, the Gracie family. And there is I would say there probably is a divide when it comes to the lineage. And some people who, learn under Professor Carlos have a different, feeling when it comes to if they learn under him. I think it just depends on what part of the family you're from, who you follow. there is the like in in my world, right? Gracie Baja and Gracie Hamada, two different gyms. two different philosophies. Like, I'm Gracie Baja, but there's another gym. Gracie Hamida in our in Colombia that, they seem to kind of go head to head quite a bit.

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:01 And there's some other gyms to where, especially if you're listening to this, you're probably a part of another gym. And you, you have your own tilt and views on different things. But but when it comes to because like jiu jitsu, people know, they know who their instructor. They know who their instructors instructor was. they know they know the entire chain of influence. But in law firms, we don't. Do we even really talk about that? I, I hear about it some like I know who I learned from that was really, really good. And I know who I learned from that was really, really bad. But we don't I don't think I think here's what it is. I don't think we give enough credit to the good ones. I don't think we give enough credit to the lineage, into the to the to the good ones. And at least I don't I, I'm not going to put that on you. I don't think I so I'll mention Steve. My record. Very great man.

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:56 someone that I learned from that really, really respect. Respect during Graham. Another person really really respect excellent attorney. So people like that that I've learned from that I think are just amazing attorneys that maybe we should do a little bit better. But it does make me wonder, like why is a profession? Are we not more like Jiu-Jitsu? Not that we should be. I'm just wondering why we shouldn't. another thing is like, what would what would law firms look like if we treated mentorship the same way martial arts schools do where it is? it's really kind of cool. And this was talked about last night too, where like, I will either get freaked out, almost choked out by someone or I will, you know, vice versa. I'll almost be choking someone out and, like, we'll have a really vicious battle the moment the clock stops and the buzzer goes off. We are like, hugging it out. I'm talking. The moment it ends. Even in the tournaments, I'm beating someone I don't even know.

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:07 It's not like we, you know, walk away in our own corners and we are, you know, pouty, and we hate each other. We fist bump. Sometimes we hug. Usually it's a it's very common to be hugging. and we we don't do that in the legal space anymore. I can tell you I've seen a massive difference in how people in the litigation side treat each other in the last 16 years. I can I can just tell you not gotten better. Like it is not it has gotten way more vicious. And I've had this conversation with someone the other day. I think a big part of it has to do. I wouldn't say the majority, but I do think a part of it has to do with the plans for when it comes to reptile. I think a lot of people came into the reptile world, and they thought that that you had to be a jerk when it comes to these things instead of being firmed respectful. And then I think a big part of it comes with just I think there's a part of the defense side, insurance defense side that is just inherently just combative.

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:14 So I think that's I think I'll put the majority on that. But I don't think the plan of Spa is help with that. and and I think family law is just a messy area. It's one of those things where I just, I think if we, I think we were more like Jiu-Jitsu in that way when it comes to mentorship, I think it would be better. I think the professional would be be far better. at least this is my opinion. okay, so this was an interesting question. Okay. Well, I'm really curious. I only hopefully we get some comments on this, but what if the true measure of a law firm wasn't revenue or profit or case results. Okay. All of those things matter in some way. Some more than others. But what if you were actually measured by how many great lawyers your firm produced? I think about that for a second and think about how much I think better off your firm would be if if you instead said, okay, doesn't matter if the attorneys stay or go.

Tyson Mutrux 00:12:19 How many great lawyers are we producing? And I think if you're producing great lawyers, you're probably going to be producing. A lot of people are going to be willing to stay and they're going to want to stay. At least you're going to be able to attract a lot more talent. that honestly was not a question I had ever asked myself. And it's really it's going to change. I can I can tell you right now it's going to change the way we do things. It is it really is. That question along? Part of the problem is, is many law firms are built around one single rainmaker, and I think that's a problem. It really is. if that person retires, if they, you know, leave the profession for whatever reason. I mean, the firm disappears. So if you were more legacy focused, if you're more focused on your tree, your the firm is more likely to to stick, to stick around. It'll survive. The founder not being there anymore. It just will be because you'll have someone to pass it on to.

Tyson Mutrux 00:13:26 And people will be able to carry that torch for you. So I am curious about how many people practicing, especially on my bigger. My big concern is the solos that just came out of law school. and I wonder, like if you had if you had a mentor, if you have a mentor. I am curious how many people, how many lawyers that are founders, people are listening to this, have had mentors like true mentors, someone that, like, was invested in you really, they had a vested interest in you. and like, because I think that matters and I wonder those that I would love to see some sort of study about the success of lawyers that have been mentored versus those that haven't. I do think that maximum lawyer is a form of mentorship. it's just a different form where, you know, we're there to support. We are there to, to help you succeed in every way. and so it's just it just comes in a different manner. Right. it's just not, you know, one person.

Tyson Mutrux 00:14:28 It's a sort of a rising tide sort of, approach, because, like, mentorship, it only matters if, if, if the person cares about long term development, obviously we do at maximum lawyer. But, if you have like a one on one mentor, they have to truly care about your long term development. That's why I think sometimes coaching doesn't work. I think sometimes the coaching is about the coach getting paid right. It's not necessarily about the person's long term development. I think that's the reality of it sometimes. And so those of you that have had a coach, you've probably experienced that before. But for it to be truly, truly, truly successful. Having a coach, having a mentor, you know, they've got a concern. They've got to care about your your long term development. this was not on my list, but I do something I, I thought about a long time ago. So think about if you thought about in, like, a 30 year mindset versus, like a three year mindset.

Tyson Mutrux 00:15:31 But then also, what if you thought like a 200 year mindset? I think I've talked about this on the on the podcast before, but, a lot of Japanese companies like Toyota, Toyota, they think in 200 year horizons. So they design everything so that the company can last 200 years. That is a that thinking is so beyond what we are used to. It's not surprising that Toyota has been around for so long. They've been so successful. But they have also they've encountered many hiccups along the way, and they've been able to stand the test of time because of the way they're designed. Now, I'm not talking about the cars, I'm talking about the company itself. And it's kind of cool. You think about in 200 Year horizons, which I mean, think about what it takes, how deep you really have to think about the development of the company and the development of the leadership and the development of your people. That takes a lot of thought, a lot of forethought. And is it realistic for you to think probably in 200 year horizons? No, that's not the point.

Tyson Mutrux 00:16:40 The point is the exercise of of building a very deep bench, a very deep, entrenched culture. All of that. That's what it comes down to. That's what it comes down to. but like, kind of think about the 30 year horizons. Three year horizons. like, think about what it takes to become a core belt. Why would I talk about poor, right? I mean, you're talking about four decades. Five decades of me. That is. That is incredible. like the system itself, it forces that long term thing. It's like there's a system built around it. Okay. In contrast, most law firms think in much shorter cycles. Or think about the next case, the next phone call. The thing about this quarter, they're thinking about next quarter. They're thinking about this year. They're thinking about next year. The idea of a 30 year mindset or a 40 year mindset or a 50 year mindset is not even something that's crossed their mind. So I wonder what changes. If you've never thought of that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:17:50 Like what changes when you start to think in a 30 year timeline? I mean, a lot of changes, right? You're designing things so much differently. You're probably taking a step back. You're pausing, thinking, okay, does this case really matter? This case that it's okay, there's some good money here. But does this case do I really need this case? Right. it changes the way you think about hiring employees. It changes the way you think about firing employees. It changes a lot of things. I think, in a very good way. It slows things down. Right. You stop to think, okay, how much does this really matter? How much is this going to matter in 30 years? I'm not going to remember this moment at all, right? that's pretty cool. When you start to think about like that, where to me, it's it relieves a lot of my stress. It really does. Like so. just have fun with me for a second. Like, imagine designing your firm the way a martial arts school designs, like adult progression.

Tyson Mutrux 00:18:56 Yeah. So you have these very clear development stages. You've got built in mentorship. you've got built in mastery where that's that's part of the the advancement. I, I, I mean, think about if you could design your firm with advancing your, your employees that same way. It's it's definitely doable. It is 100% doable. And you just have to take the time to design it. Have we designed it to that point? No no no no no no no no. not to that level. I, I wish I could say that we have, but we have not. That is that is a difference, I think. Sure. We have scorecards and all that, and we have done our best to design, you know, goalposts for our people to know how to how to get to advancement. What? When it comes to the advancement, like jiu jitsu. We have not thought about it to that level, but it's one of those things. I'm also going to start we're going to start thinking about it now.

Tyson Mutrux 00:19:56 People aren't going to be earning belts and all that, but there's certainly a way we can design the progression. I think that that's a pretty cool thing to think about, and I think we'll be able to do that. It's just a matter that's going to take some time. It's just going to take some time. just think about like today, I think about this question. Here's a really good question for you. Okay. So if a lawyer started at your firm today or employee whatever it is, okay. It could be a receptionist. But every position. What would their black belt track look like? What would it look like if they started your firm today. And let's focus on attorneys for a second. So the lawyer started here for me today. What would their black belt path look like? How did they get to. How do they earn their blue belt? So they start as a white belt. How do they get their blue belt? Okay, the way it sort of works in jiu jitsu, and it's different in every gym, but I'm going to give you a somewhat of a framework.

Tyson Mutrux 00:21:02 So you've got and this is for adults. Kids are a little bit different. So you're at white Belt for about a year year and a half. And these are not based on time. I'm just giving you they're based on skill. But this is roughly how long it takes for you to to develop these skills year year and a half is your blue belt and then your blue belt for a couple of years. Okay. 2 to 3, let's say 2 to 3 years. And then you're a purple belt for 2 to 3, four years. Okay. And then your brown belt for 2 to 3, four years, something like that. So it takes at a minimum to get a black belt ten years. So you're not getting a black belt in ten years. Right. So now if you kind of break that down for for attorneys, because there's definitely black belt attorneys and there's definitely blue, but blue belt attorneys, there's definitely white belt attorneys. There's a there's different varying qualities of attorneys. So like what what does that path look like for your attorney? Right.

Tyson Mutrux 00:22:00 I think designing that would be very, very helpful for you. It would also be very, very helpful for them. More so probably for them, but for the longevity of the firm. Extremely helpful. Because are we really are we building careers inside our firms or or are we just building jobs? If we're just building jobs, then this is not a long term thing for them. They want to have careers. They they don't want to have a job. And many of us think about that incorrectly. It's that is a massive distinction. Run that idea by them today. I guarantee you that they're going to agree with me. I guarantee it. If you disagree with me, I would love to hear from you. I would absolutely love to hear anyone that would disagree with that comment. because, like, no great thing is created suddenly it's just not, Great things take time and a career is a great thing. A job is usually not right. All right. So, here's another kind of question.

Tyson Mutrux 00:23:10 Like what would change in your firm if you designed it to last a hundred years? Okay, so let's take it. Not 200, not 100. So just it's kind of like on your own, kind of a prompt just to sort of get your mind thinking like, how would you change things from where it is right now? So I'd love to hear from you on that. Leave us a comment. I would I would like to get comments and I will definitely respond to them. All right. Let me. I'm kind of running out of time, so I'll make sure I get to some of these other questions. All right. When it comes to training, I think what's really kind of cool is in jiu jitsu. I want to keep this kind of jiu jitsu theme throughout this entire episode, which really neat, is at least at our gym. Every gym is going to be a little bit different, but at least at our gym, like I remember, there were people that were way better than me and they wouldn't just submit me.

Tyson Mutrux 00:24:10 Like, what they would say is, I remember this guy Shane. He was awesome. He would say, like, the guy is like, got like £200 on me. Gigantic guy. full of muscle. And he could just he could tap me in, probably 30s. But he would say instead of just, you know, tapping me, he would say, okay, try this, you know, move your hand here, move your arm there, put your leg here. And to help improve me. Right. And and so that kind of gets passed on where like I do the same thing now with people that I'm better then and I'd say, oh, you know what? You would have had me here if you would have put you on there or if you would have held this position here. You gotta turn your hand the right way. And so I think one of the cool things that that we do in jiu jitsu that could definitely be applied within the legal space is, is that if you train one lawyer, you have to train well, and you're going to teach them sort of the way in jiu jitsu, where I mean, you sort of I mean, many times leaders are they they point out the negatives and instead of defeating them, right.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:19 How about we help them win by telling them how to do the things the right way, complimenting them on the good things that they're doing, and be a little bit get a little more grace when it comes to the things that they do for them. And what they're going to do is they're going to do the same thing to the next people down the road. so passing that influence from you to them to the next person to the next person, it's really going to spread. I think that part's really, really important. Okay. another thing we could we could probably do as part of this is this when it comes to that mentorship, try to find a way to treat it as a core business metric, if you can. And an easy way of doing that maybe is, when it comes to, I mean, how many hours a quarter did we mentor younger lawyers? Okay. so just something something to think about. Because how many lawyers practicing today are pricing the way they do because of something that you taught them or another attorney taught them? Pretty much all of them are like, unless you start as a true solo, even the true solos, they had to learn from somewhere and they learn from someone.

Tyson Mutrux 00:26:27 they some of them may have read in a book, but ultimately they came from someone, right? So like, think about that impact. That's a really big impact. Okay. so I would if I were you, I would start kind of thinking about who's one lawyer in your firm. You could start intentionally mentoring, like, this year and really kind of think about, think it through, think about who that might be. I think it would be. It's a really good way of starting, because, I mean, are we really are we building law firms that revolve around us, or are we building firms that can exist without us? And it kind of goes back to earlier what I talked about earlier. Most of us are creating firms that are revolving around us, and we've got to get away from that if we want, if we want to kind of get all that pressure off of us. But it also, that's part of it is getting that pressure off of us. But if we want long, long term firms that that can outlast us.

Tyson Mutrux 00:27:31 We've got to we've got to make it where it doesn't revolve around us. So I am in a rapid. I've got, I've got love as usual. I've got a lot more that I had to cover. But I, I think I've got everything that I want to, because what I really want is I want you to be proud of your firm, and I want you to be to create the firm that you want. I want you to create the firm, even if it does revolve around you, that it's completely fine. That being said, I think there's many lessons that we can learn from jiu jitsu about passing on a legacy. so even if it. Yeah, like I said, even if the firm does resolve revolve around you, I'm sure you want to pass on some sort of legacy. I'm sure that it would be very nice for in your profession, people respected you. People. you know, they said, you know what, Tyson, man, the the footprint he left on this earth is powerful, right? At least I that's something I would want.

Tyson Mutrux 00:28:28 Like, you don't want the opposite. You definitely don't. So, I think it's something that I think it's something worth thinking about. I would love to hear your thoughts about it. Leave me a comment. It'd be great. Also, check out Becca's list. Becca's list is there for you. It's free. It's free to use. And so go there. Leave a review. Check out other vendors. Find out who you like, who you don't like, who to avoid, and who is great. And give the money. Give money to the ones that are great. That's all I would say. yeah. I'm not incentivized to tell you that. I'm just telling you. Give money to the good ones. Don't give money to the bad ones. That's just a basic principle that I live by. So. And then also, if you're interested in the association, check us out. Go to maximum. Com. We would love to have you but thanks for watching everybody. Thanks for listening.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:14 Have a great day. See you.