Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Reflecting on the state of mergers and acquisitions in the chemicals and materials industries for 2024 and looking ahead to 2025, Kevin Yttre, President and Managing Director at Grace Matthews, joins host Victoria Meyer on The Chemical Show. Following recent supply chain disruptions and unpredictable business performance, Kevin shares his insights on the improved conditions that have led to increased deal activity and optimism for the future. Emphasizing the importance of steady-state performance for valuation, they discuss the evolving competitive landscape, including heightened interest from private equity and international firms.
Victoria and Kevin discuss the increasing sophistication of M&A processes, underscoring the necessity for thorough due diligence and strategic preparation. They explore the ongoing interest from international companies, the influence of private equity in driving competition, and the external factors impacting market stability. Kevin also provides career advice on transitioning into investment banking, highlighting the pivotal role of an MBA and other pathways within the industry. This episode offers valuable insights into the current and future trends in the chemicals and materials sector's mergers and acquisitions landscape, setting the stage for what's to come in 2025.
Join us to learn more about the following topics this week:
- Observations and assessments on chemicals and materials M&A activity in 2024
- Valuation trends in 2024: The current methodologies and commonly used markers for chemical businesses
- Analyzing the current competitive landscape through private equity activity and the availability of capital
- Critical factors in M&A in 2025
- Leadership and career pathways in M&A
Killer Quote: "Predictability in company performance is key to easier valuation and transaction processes in M&A. Surprises are rarely welcome in this field—steady-state performance is what truly drives value." -- Kevin Yttre
Other links:
Grace Matthews Newsletter: Momentum Building into 2025: Strategies for M&A Success (Winter 2024)
***Don’t miss an episode: Subscribe to The Chemical Show on your favorite podcast player.
***Like what you hear? Leave a rating and review.
***Want more insights? Sign up for our email list at https://www.thechemicalshow.com
***Like what you hear? Leave a rating and review.
***Want more insights? Sign up for our email list at https://www.thechemicalshow.com
Creators and Guests
What is The Chemical Show: Where Leaders Talk Business?
Looking to lead, grow, and stay ahead in the trillion-dollar global chemical industry? The Chemical Show - the #1 business podcast for the chemical industry - is your go-to resource for leadership insights, business strategies, and real-world lessons from the executives shaping the future of chemicals. Grow your knowledge, your network, and your impact.
Each week, you'll hear from executives from across the industry - from Fortune 50 to midsize to startups. You’ll hear how they're tacking today's challenges and opportunities, their origin story (what got them here!), how you can take and apply these lessons and insights to your own business and career.
We talk:
- Business Transformation
- Innovation
- Digitization of business
- Strategy
- Supply Chain
- and so much more
Founder and host Victoria King Meyer is an expert interviewer - who brings out the best in each guest. She gained her industry experience at leading companies, including Shell, LyondellBasell and Clariant. Today, she is a high-performance coach and advisor to business leaders in chemicals and energy, as well as the host of The Chemical Show podcast, and founder of The Chemical Summit.
Follow us on LinkedIn for the latest!
Websites:
https://www.thechemicalshow.com
https://www.thechemicalsummit.com
https://www.progressioglobal.com
A key component of the modern
world economy, the chemical
industry delivers products and
innovations to enhance everyday life.
It is also an industry in transformation
where chemical executives and
workers are delivering growth and
industry changing advancements while
responding to pressures from investors,
regulators, and public opinion.
Discover how leading companies
are approaching these challenges
here on the chemical show.
Join Victoria Meyer, president
of Progressio Global and
host of the chemical show.
As she speaks with executives across the
industry and learns how they are leading
their companies to grow, transform, and
push industry boundaries on all frontiers.
Here's your host, Victoria Meyer.
Victoria: Hi, this is Victoria Meyer.
Welcome back to The Chemical Show
where chemicals means business.
Today I am speaking with Kevin Yttre,
who is the President and Managing
Director at Grace Matthews, which is
an investment bank serving companies in
the chemicals and materials value chain.
So we're going to be wrapping up 2024
with a view on M&A markets and activity
for chemicals, and materials companies.
You may recall that Kevin was a guest
on episode one of six in June of 2023.
We are going to be
linking to that episode.
so you can hear what was going
on in markets at that time
versus where we are today.
And I know that Kevin's also going to
be referencing Grace Matthews, most
recent newsletter, and I'll include
the link to that in show notes.
Cause that has some great insights
about, How you might be thinking
about the world of M&A and how,
and strategies for M&A success.
So we'll be linking to that.
Kevin, welcome to The Chemical Show.
Kevin: Thank you very much, Victoria.
Grateful to be here.
Victoria: Thank you for
joining me once again.
as we get started, can you just
give us a brief introduction
to you and to Grace Matthews?
Kevin: Yeah, first, can I
just say this in that intro?
I didn't actually go back and listen
to the June podcast from 2023,
so I'm a bit nervous right now.
Victoria: I didn't.
How about this?
I did not either, but knowing
you, Kevin, I know it's
Kevin: I'm
hoping there's consistency.
I'm hoping there's consistency.
How's that?
Victoria, I have spent my entire
professional career in and around
the chemical industry, and first
that was in more operating roles and
then transitioning into financial
services about 17 years ago.
So I've been doing all M&A
work And, material science and
chemicals for that time period.
And we as an organization, everything
we do, as you mentioned in the
intro is really in this value chain.
And just to give you some metrics on
us, we have 20 people here in Milwaukee,
Wisconsin, and 2024, for example, we
were fortunate to have advised on 11
closings, a 12th that had a
signed purchase agreement on.
we closed 10, 10 deals.
so feel, very positive
momentum going into 2025.
And, most of our work is on the sell side.
And when you look at that, it's a
pretty uniform mix of private companies,
corporate carve outs and also working
with private equity funds when they're
ready to realize an exit and, and the
balance of our work, which is a smaller
portion of our practices on the buy side.
I think you've heard me say this
before, but the vast majority of what
we work on are transactions that are
below 500 million in enterprise value.
Some people call that lower middle
market or middle market, but that's
really where we spend all of our time.
Victoria: Yeah.
And that makes sense.
And when I think about the industry
most broadly on a 80 20 basis,
probably 80 percent of the industry
is in that, valuation zone.
Kevin: Yep.
I think that's right.
I think that's right.
Victoria: Awesome.
So as we're wrapping up the
year, what are your observations
or assessments on chemicals and
materials M&A activity in 24?
Kevin: Yeah.
I think, so first let me just say this.
I think forward looking, I think there's
a lot of optimism going into 2025, just in
terms of M&A activity in the value chain.
if you take a step back for a
second, and this is where I was
joking about the 2023 podcast.
I hope this is what I
was saying at that time.
But, if you recall me all the
dynamics that led to, to supply
chain challenges and issues in the
22, 23 timeframe, 21 timeframe,
you saw a lot of companies have.
Have record years in 2022 and, that
destocking element of things started
to seem to hit people in Q4 of 2022.
And depending on where you were in
the value chain, it rippled through
all of 2023 and hit different
organizations at different times.
And I think what that did, was
very much create a situation where.
Forecasting or projecting a
business became really challenging.
And we, had instances, and I'm sure
you've had people, on your podcast,
Victoria, that would say they
have a customer telling us they're
taking four tank wagons this month.
And then they call us the
next day and say, it's one.
And they call us the next day
and say, actually, we need three.
and I think, it's just like the industry
standard in transcactions to talk
in terms of EBITDA multiples, but.
When you think of it this way, and I know
we'll talk about valuation of it, but a
buyer is always buying the future, right?
And, when you talk in terms of a
multiple, typically when you think of
that, it's you're taking the enterprise
value compared to the most recent 12
months of the company's performance.
that 12 months is usually the
best indicator of the future.
And that's what started to decouple
is if you go back and you look at all,
all kinds of articles that we would
have been a part of, or presentations
we gave, it was all about run rate
sustainability or sustainability and
preparing, if you're going to go to
market to be able to articulate why
your run rate was going to hold.
And I think what's changed in 2024 is you
have seen companies, be able to better
predict how they're going to perform.
And that was a challenge in 23.
And I think as a result, you've
seen deal activity really pick
up in the back half of this year.
So you look at deal counts and I know you
referenced our newsletter, but if you go
look, we have a chart in there that, that
shows kind of deal counts, not overall
enterprise value, just number of deals.
And you saw a step back in 23,
and really stepped back up in 24.
And a lot of that step up in my view
is really linked to that dynamic of
better predictability of earnings.
And it puts that buyer and
seller in the safe spot.
and I know, the funny part about
that is we'd have people in 23 go, I
bet this means valuations are down.
And we respond going, you like,
rationally, you'd think that a lot
of those deals just didn't happen.
And so if companies that performed
really well in 2023, the resiliency
that they would have shown, we
actually saw values probably higher,
that whole flight to quality concept.
I think the whole like multiples
equation that I'm sure we'll talk
about, I think is also improved here,
but really I think that's the dynamic.
If you were to say status of
today versus, versus 2023.
Victoria: Yeah.
And that makes sense.
Cause from a business value perspective,
just on a holistic basic and I'll let you
get into some of that, but, steady state,
is always easier to understand, interpret
and apply value to, and easier to buy.
Because you, as a company that is
potentially buying another company
or a business, it's easier to know
what you're getting, and surprises
don't make anyone happy usually.
Kevin: Yeah.
We, have a saying in our office that
surprises are only fun on your birthday.
So you don't, you don't want
that in an M&A discussion.
But no, I think you're exactly right.
Having the ability to predict more
of a steady state performance is,
really key to success in a deal.
Victoria: Yeah.
Awesome.
So let's talk about valuation.
Yeah.
What are the current, where are we at?
How about that?
I'll just leave that more broadly is
what's the current status evaluations?
Because to your point everybody wants to
know, you know How do I value my business?
What markers can I use?
What are you seeing in the
world evaluations today?
Kevin: Yeah, and so first and I know
I've said this to you privately before,
we get really sensitive using multiples
because they're so easy to manipulate.
And you really got to get very granular
and specific to a particular company
situation to really assess that.
But I think, and this is in our
newsletter as well, if you look at, yeah.
We track an index of 100 public,
materials and chemicals companies, and
it's a very diverse mix of companies.
This is like Ecolab and Dow
and Sherwin Williams and PPG.
it's very, diverse and you look at,
where their public trading multiple
is over a 10 year time period.
That is, is right around 11.3 times.
So over the past 10 years, this index
has been, has traded at 11.3 times, which
basically means you can buy that index.
If you could sell it tomorrow,
right now in December of 2024.
The average for that index is almost
identical to the 10 year average.
And so in, in my view, I would take
that to read a, that means it's a
pretty healthy market right now.
And, I think that's where some of that
optimism is that I was talking about
is, I don't think people always want
to believe they can time the market
and go, should I sell when multiples
are really high or when they're like,
I don't think that's clearly possible,
but I think it's a pretty healthy time.
Now, I think.
The, real area of how you drive
higher multiples for a company.
And this is in that category.
If, you rewind the clock to almost
a year ago today, I think you would
have heard people say, I can't
wait until 2023 is over and 2024
is going to be so much better.
And.
I think 24 was probably
okay for a lot of companies.
More predictable, but just okay.
And I think everyone wanted to believe
it was going to be a really good
year and I think it was just okay.
People are saying the same
things right now about 2025, and
it's probably a little bit more
believable than it was a year ago.
And, I think the key to really
having that valuation driver
be there is volume growth.
That's an area where, you know, again,
I think go back to all that supply
chain stuff and margins moving all
over the place, we've definitely seen.
Very well run companies do very well
from a profitability standpoint.
And that, that, in my view,
should command value alone.
But showing the ability to organically
grow volumes has been a little bit
hard in the past 18 months, two years.
And showing that is really, in
my view, where you're going to
start seeing values move back up.
So healthy market, I think really
to command a bit more of a premium,
it's getting volume growth going.
Victoria: Yeah.
And that's a good perspective.
And I think you're right.
People would say 2024 was Okay.
depending on where you sit in the market.
second half was not as good as people
would have wanted it to be, but it all,
it's very market specific and use market
specific and geography specific, right?
which probably is of no surprise to you.
Kevin: Yep.
No, I think that's right.
I think that's right.
Victoria: Yeah.
Awesome.
And so when we think about, Maybe
just the competitive landscape.
Are you seeing more or less activity,
whether it be from private equity, we
talked prior to the call about, private
equity, there had been quite a discussion
about having a lot of dry powder, right?
Is that the phrase?
and capital ready to deploy.
Are you still seeing that?
Is there a lot of capital to deploy?
Does that generate more activity?
How does that translate?
Yeah.
Kevin: Yeah, I saw.
let me maybe just say a few things and if
I can start with just this time of year.
So if you think December and January,
it's not uncommon that we will have phone
calls with different organizations just
to kind Hey, how's the year going for you?
And what are you looking at?
How's your M&A priorities?
And the same in January when you start
a new year, it's, hey, let's talk
about what your goals are for the year.
And so this isn't a private
equity centric comment.
It's more a, in 2024, we had,
I think it's six or seven
international companies come, to us.
And instead of just give us an update
on this is where we want to deploy
resources from an M&A standpoint,
literally walk us through almost
like a two hour presentation of,
Here is our whole M&A strategy.
And we're very keen on building a
stronger presence in North America.
And some even came to Milwaukee
to visit us and walk through
Victoria: Wow.
Kevin: And so when that competitive
landscape question you ask, I go, I
think you can read economists suggest
that there's a lot of desire to
deploy resources in North America.
I feel like we're feeling that a bit.
So I, think you do have a little
bit more of an international poll
to try and deploy resources here.
So that is one element of a competitive
dynamic of, I just think there's more
buyers in that bucket, I think from
private equity, we have a chart that
we used in a presentation that shows
the number of equity funds has more
than doubled in the past 10 years.
And that's just, a generic, the number of
funds have doubled in the past 10 years.
I think those interested in the
chemical industry have probably tripled
or quadrupled in the past 10 years.
And that doesn't necessarily
mean heavy reactive chemistries.
It may be things like service oriented
water treatment or distribution
type businesses, or things like food
ingredients or flavor that there's no,
Victoria: Yeah.
Why,
Kevin: And
Victoria: do you think that is?
Why is there a bigger interest potentially
in chemicals?
Kevin: I think it's a
really good question.
And I think there's probably
multiple answers to it.
One of those, I think, is truly
because people have seen other
funds have success in the sector.
and, there's a lot of smart people
that work in private equity.
And when you see someone have success
Deploying resources and building, building
a business and a successful exit with it.
I think you get people who
follow suit and I think that
is, really driving some of it.
And, and I think, over time, I think it
used to be really hard a long time ago to
get your head around and, Environmental
dynamics, union exposure, commodity
risk, and I think you've just gotten
people who have gotten far, better on
how to manage that in a transaction.
And so that just, again, has led to
successful investments, which other
people see and they try to replicate.
But truly though, if you go back to
your original question, Victoria, you're
seeing a lot more activity from private
equity interest in the space and that
does not mean a hundred percent of their
resources are going to be invested here.
It's probably a portion of their capital.
And I think some estimates right
now are maybe 100 or 150 businesses
are owned by private equity funds.
And a lot of those have buy
and build strategies with them.
So I think that competitive landscape
question of you have international buyers
who have an interest here, you're seeing
more and more private equity funds who
have an interest to invest capital.
You see The platform portfolio
companies try and buy and build.
That's not even talking about
like the traditional strategic.
And so I think it is a far
more competitive environment
than you've seen in the past.
You would intuitively you think,
that should make it a little
bit easier to sell a company.
I don't necessarily think
that is accurate as well.
I think buyers clearly
recognize how competitive it is.
and I think if they don't have a
strong angle, they don't lean in hard.
And so I think we have seen on deals that
we've worked on where 10 years ago we
might have gotten 30 bids for a company.
The number of bids come down,
but the quality of those
bids, I think, tends to go up.
Victoria: Yeah.
So I want to come back on that point.
But the point that strikes me is that
if there are more companies interested
in doing deals in North America.
That to me says the price,
the prices would go up.
Is that a fair assessment to you?
And yet your multiples you're
saying are comparable to where
they were from a 10 year average.
So that doesn't necessarily jive for me.
Kevin: yeah.
I think, again, that multiples over a
10 year period is pretty diversified.
So you're including a whole mix
of different commodity companies
and highly formulated things.
And so I, I think that
index to me is more just.
The health of where things are let alone
like a specific multiple I think if you
do look over time You will definitely see
multiples just moving up and that whole
asset inflation dynamic that's happened in
every type of industry It has definitely
shown itself But I think if you go look
in and again, I don't want to continue
to plug our newsletter But if you go look
at the deal counts that I was talking
about before, it's not like there's
that many more deals that are happening.
So 2024 there, it was a very
good year in the number of deals.
It's about the same as
what it was in 2021.
And what everyone thinks was a
crazy M&A environment, which was
about the same as, 2018 and 2019.
So there's really not that many
more deals and there's more and
more people who are interested.
So I think it does create a
dynamic of it's probably a
healthier valuation environment.
But again, I, think, go back to
my statement about the, It doesn't
necessarily mean that it's easier
to get through a deal, right?
And I know some of the questions
you wanted to go through are what
advice you're giving clients today.
every year since I have been doing this
and I wouldn't say it's like a magical
January one thing, like diligence,
scrutiny just seems to get harder
and harder and harder and so I think
we're a broken record all the time of
you need to be prepared, you need to
be prepared, you need to be prepared.
I think take how competitive that is.
If someone does get pushed to the edge
of what they can pay for something
to be successful in a competitive M&A
process, they don't want to be exposed
to any risks they don't know about.
And that just leads to
incredible diligence scrutiny.
And that is, again, I don't think
it's ever going the other direction.
I think diligence is going to continue
to ramp up and, it's crippling at
Victoria: times.
Yeah, well, and I think it's a
function of where we are from a
risk and sophistication perspective,
right?
So I, look at it even from my experience
working at Shell and clearance and stuff.
And I remember at one point having
conversations of, when we started
up some of these plants that were
brand new in the, 60s, 70s, 80s,
we were comfortable with learning.
and yet today in a more sophisticated
Environment you want to start up and
you want to start up and have 95 percent
operating rates and know exactly what
you're doing So I think these parallels
Kevin: And that's never
going to happen, by the way,
Victoria: that's never gonna happen.
No, But
Kevin: it's what you want.
Victoria: yeah, they
translate everywhere though.
Everybody's a little
bit more sophisticated.
They want more certainty and that
certainty leads to more diligence.
So you started talking about the fact
that there's actually fewer bids per
deal, which maybe is contrary to the
idea that there's a lot more people
looking to, to enter the market to
make deals in the North America.
and yet it probably balances with
these diligence requirements.
Can you touch on that?
Kevin: Yeah, I don't think the fewer
is more the again, I'm going to use
our terms and this is internal data.
So I'm sure you could talk to someone else
and they give you a different perspective
and they go, No, we're getting more bids.
I just think it felt like 10 years
ago, if we were going to market with a
company, you receive a fair number of
bids that were, I'm going to put in the
category of kick the tires type of thing.
And let's see if we throw something
out there and we'll stick.
I just think buyers are
smart enough now to go.
It is that competitive of an
environment that trying to do
that is not a good use of time.
And I think really it comes
down to, do I have an angle?
Do I really believe I'm the
best owner of this company?
And if I am, I'm going to lean in.
I wouldn't quantify exactly
how many are in the fewer.
I just think you're starting to
see dynamics where, at least on our
projects, where when we do receive
bids, they're, one more thought out.
Victoria: and then does that imply that
these are, these buyers tend to be far
more strategic versus I, I guess I, my
naive view of the world says, I think
of PE perhaps as being less strategic,
although I know that they would argue that
they're very strategic and I, get all that
versus somebody that says, Oh no, I want
to go and get that asset because it's a
perfect fit for the rest of my portfolio.
How do you see that playing?
Kevin: I think, so let me just say this.
You had a question before about,
What is the cash on the sideline?
Or what are the war chests at Brendan?
I think you can see some estimates.
That's like a trillion dollars, and
it's very hard to categorize a trillion
dollars in one simple statement.
What I would say is this, that when
you think of a private equity fund
who's interested in deploying capital
in And material science or chemicals.
Typically, they have been evaluating
opportunities and interacting with
executives and consultants for years.
And so a lot of times when they see
an opportunity, when you hear someone
say, they are strategic in a sense, I
think they can look at things and go,
I've seen this, and this, and I could
see an ability to put this together
with that company, or I see that
they have a hole and need to have an
operation in this part of the country.
And I think, I just think that type of
mindset is, it's not just as simple as I
look at EBITDA and I put a multiple on it.
I think when I say they, they really,
you're going to see a mindset that's more
of, do we have an angle where we think we
can add value beyond just, Just, dollars.
I think that is what is changing.
Victoria: Yeah.
Kevin: and so I would not, take it
as a it's more strategic in nature.
I'd say it's it continues to be mixed.
Victoria: Okay.
Fair enough.
So then, what do you
I guess maybe what are the
factors that you see in critical?
when we're talking about M&A for, let's
just take it 2025 and going forward,
Kevin: Yeah, yeah,
Victoria: can only go so
Kevin: Yeah, I was gonna say,
I can't go past Q1 of 25.
So I'm going any further
than that would hurt.
But I feel like the number of one once in
a lifetime events that have happened over
the past four or five years is pretty,
pretty hard to get your head around.
from COVID to Texas freezes
to hurricanes to wars.
it's, really hard to envision a scenario
where you go like every six months,
we're going to have to deal with an
industry dynamic that, that gets,
that causes things to get flipped on
Victoria: And by the way, we've
got a potential port strike coming
up in mid January as well, right?
Again, another rare occurrence
that doesn't feel so rare anymore.
Kevin: And that's the stuff.
So I always go to the
what can you control?
And when we ever sit down and talk
to a seller, we always take a step
back and go, how is the market
and how is your business doing?
and I think what hopefully I just
mentioned for the last whatever 10
minutes is, the market seems to be in
a spot where it's pretty, pretty solid.
And there's optimism there.
I think the critical factors then
really come down to drilling and
specifics on your own business
and where the business is at.
And that to me is really the Key of
does your business where it sits today?
Dynamics going on within it get you to
a spot where you would be happy with
the transaction if you're a seller.
And if the answer to that is yes, I
think you have again a good market
and a good, company situation.
If you don't have both of those in
the equation, I think it's a hard
thing to look someone in the face
and tell them that it's a good
idea to entertain going to market.
And I say that from a sense,
Victoria, and this is where I go
back to the, I'm worried about
what I said in the 2023 podcast is
Victoria: I'm sure you're consistent,
Kevin: good.
Victoria: I probably
Kevin: know,
but I do think there, in that timeframe,
we were giving a fair number of people
guidance of if you don't need to go
to market, or if there is not some
factor that is, forcing you to sell
a company right now, you're better
suited to just hold off and let
some of this stuff play itself out.
At that time, I'm sure we would have.
Put some comment out there that
goes the first question about your
company when you go to market it.
You don't want it to be Why
are you doing this right now?
And so so I think that Again, it's
not really a critical thing I think
it's more the you need to dig into
specifics within a business and if
they support You're going to get to an
outcome that you feel is appropriate.
it's a good time
Victoria: Yeah, absolutely.
And I think there's a lot of
uncertainties, in the market still, right?
So the chemical industry seems
to be a bit more steady state.
That is true.
we know that there's a lot of strategic
actions taking place with some of
the biggies that have announced,
some strategic changes in, their
European portfolios in particular,
and then how it plays out globally.
We've got the new administration coming
in, in January, which is going to.
It's already, introducing some
different variables into the equation.
It's going to continue to do
particularly, probably for at
least for the first six months
of the year, I would assume.
and so would you offer the same
advice of, think twice before you
decide you're going to sell or just
at least know what your story is?
Kevin: yeah, I don't think it's
like the again, I So let me
just maybe share this insight.
It's not uncommon when we are brought
in to talk to a private company, a
more of a private, privately held
business, whether that's a family, a
few shareholders, but truly private.
A lot of time before, before I asked
for guidance, it usually starts
with, what do you think we should do?
Which is very different than
I'm ready to sell my company.
Tell me how to do it.
And, I think the, what do you think
we should do has some elements
in it of, is now a good time.
And when you look at our business,
are there some things that we
should address before we entertain
going to market with the company?
and that goes back to my
comment a few seconds ago.
I think if you look at where optimism is
at, and you look at that current market
fundamentals, I think those things support
there is, An active buyer pool out there.
you really need to drill into specifics
on a company to go is should you
wait six months or three months?
Some of that comes back to candidly,
the volume thing is that I was talking
about before of showing a little
bit more traction on volume growth.
If 25 ends up being a better year, I think
unlocks so much more value for someone.
and so I think those are the types
of things of what opportunities
are staring you in the face
and how near term are they?
But I will also take a step back and
all of a sudden you can never thread
a needle perfectly on these things.
So thinking you can do that is going
to just lead to a poor outcome.
I think you can always
then find a reason to go.
i'll just wait six more months.
I'll just wait six more months
Victoria: Yeah.
in, in what I think has been interesting
in, I've worked with a number of
private companies, and work with
different leaders in different places.
And there's a different lens often in
terms of how they make decisions, right?
They make a decision that they, it's
probably a longer term view also often,
and they make a decision, they figure
out how to make it work and they just,
you Do it because they're not beholden
to shareholders every quarter in the
same way that a public company is so I
think that does drive some different,
decision making and timing because
the lens of judgment is different
Kevin: I think that's right
Victoria: So kevin, let's let's
turn a little bit to leadership.
because I like to always ask this question
of folks What advice do you have for
somebody who's early or mid career?
that would like to keep Get into
investment banking and deal making and
do a little bit of what you're doing.
Yeah.
Kevin: career,
but, at some point in time, you
are, you're seems like you're
like, I'm the old person.
Now I'm supposed to have
some advice to give people.
anyways, I think getting into investment
banking, I think that is so much
easier to do early in your career.
It's tricky to do when you're
further along in your career.
And I think that is really just comes
down to the basics of deal execution
and understanding all of that.
having a foundation when you're
younger is really, much, easier to do.
I think what has changed is there is so
much of a fight for talent these days
that it used to be like to become an
associate in an investment bank, you need
to have an MBA and do all these things.
I think that has changed and I can't
speak to how large bulge bracket
banks do all their recruiting stuff,
but I think the rules have very much
changed over the past several years.
And so I go to the if you want to get
an investment banking starting early
in your careers is a bit easier to do.
I think if you want to be in deal
making and you want to be maybe not
on the advisory side, but active
within an operating company, for
instance, I think it's trying to
find a way to navigate in this.
We get this question quite frequently
from different professionals where
they go, I was, I work in this company.
I'm a marketing manager for insert
the blank, and I was pulled in on
diligence for a deal that we are
working on, and I'd really like to know
how I could get more active and deal.
So I think trying to get into your
corporate development group is really
another path to, get into deal making.
The challenge there can be some
companies have a corporate development
group and they don't do a lot of M&A.
And so you'll find some frustration
to go I'm in this group.
We evaluate our opportunities
and we just don't do a lot.
I think if you're really wanting to
be in dealmaking, you got to find
yourself in an organization that
views M&A as a core pillar as part of
their strategy, and then, you're in
a spot where you will be, a bit more
active in terms of true dealmaking.
Victoria: Yeah,
So in, so you have an MBA,
as I recall, am I right?
and that's actually the
pivot point for you.
Kevin: that was Correct.
Victoria: Yeah.
So, do you still see it as
a viable pivot point for
people coming out of maybe what's
considered operating roles and then
moving into investment banking?
Is that still legit?
Kevin: I think that is still very much the
case I think if you do recall Victoria,
like I still even had a backdoor way
into this I wasn't intending to get
into financial services I met our two co
founders and more wanted to meet their
clients that I did want to work and
transactional work I think that still was
very much a common path investment banking
is going to business school and using
that as a launching pad to make a change
Victoria: Awesome.
Kevin, thank you.
Thanks for taking time
to talk with us today.
I really appreciate your insights.
Kevin: Yeah, thank you.
Victoria.
It's good to see you
Victoria: Absolutely.
And thank you everyone for joining us.
Keep listening, keep following,
keep sharing, and we will
talk with you again soon.