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What if your anxiety, overwhelm, or constant sense of unease is not just a mental health issue, but a signal from a body that is overstimulated, under-rested, and out of balance? In this episode, Dr. Taz sits down with integrative psychiatrist Ellen Vora, author of The Anatomy of Anxiety, to unpack how modern life, stress, and physiology are quietly driving the rise of anxiety.
If you’re dealing with anxiety, burnout, or feeling “off” and want deeper, root-cause support, join the Circle here:
👉 https://holplus.co/circle
Anxiety is rarely just about your thoughts. It often reflects a deeper imbalance involving sleep, blood sugar, gut health, inflammation, and how your nervous system is responding to the world around you.
Learn more about support related to this conversation: Anxiety & Stress Support: https://holplus.co/anxiety
In this episode, Dr. Ellen Vora explains the difference between true anxiety and physiological anxiety, and why many people are treating the wrong problem. She breaks down how poor sleep, overstimulation, gut imbalances, and even mouth breathing can create anxiety symptoms, and why medications don’t always address the root cause. You’ll learn why some anxiety is actually a healthy signal, how modern lifestyles are dysregulating our nervous systems, and why addressing the body first can change everything. This conversation challenges the idea that anxiety is simply a chemical imbalance and offers a more holistic, empowering path forward.
If you’ve ever felt like your anxiety doesn’t fully make sense, or that you’ve tried everything but still don’t feel better, this episode will help you understand what might actually be missing.
In this video, we cover:
What “true anxiety” vs. “false anxiety” really means
Why anxiety is not always a mental health disorder
How sleep, blood sugar, and gut health impact anxiety
The hidden role of overstimulation and modern life
Why medications don’t always solve anxiety long-term
The connection between ADHD and a “tired brain”
How breathing and sleep quality affect mental health
Why emotional sensitivity is not a weakness
Practical foundations to regulate your nervous system
This is not just about managing anxiety. It’s about understanding your body, restoring balance, and creating a foundation for mental clarity, resilience, and long-term well-being.
About The Guest:
Dr. Ellen Vora, MD is a board-certified psychiatrist, acupuncturist, and yoga teacher who takes a functional, whole-person approach to mental health. She is the author of The Anatomy of Anxiety and specializes in identifying the root causes of anxiety through physiology, lifestyle, and emotional health.
About Dr. Taz:
Dr. Tasneem Bhatia (Dr. Taz) is a triple board-certified integrative medicine physician,
bestselling author, and founder of hol+ a multi-location integrative medicine practice.
Learn more: https://doctortaz.com/about
Stay Connected:
In this episode, Dr. Ellen Vora explains the difference between true anxiety and physiological anxiety, and why many people are treating the wrong problem. She breaks down how poor sleep, overstimulation, gut imbalances, and even mouth breathing can create anxiety symptoms, and why medications don’t always address the root cause. You’ll learn why some anxiety is actually a healthy signal, how modern lifestyles are dysregulating our nervous systems, and why addressing the body first can change everything. This conversation challenges the idea that anxiety is simply a chemical imbalance and offers a more holistic, empowering path forward.
If you’ve ever felt like your anxiety doesn’t fully make sense, or that you’ve tried everything but still don’t feel better, this episode will help you understand what might actually be missing.
In this video, we cover:
What “true anxiety” vs. “false anxiety” really means
Why anxiety is not always a mental health disorder
How sleep, blood sugar, and gut health impact anxiety
The hidden role of overstimulation and modern life
Why medications don’t always solve anxiety long-term
The connection between ADHD and a “tired brain”
How breathing and sleep quality affect mental health
Why emotional sensitivity is not a weakness
Practical foundations to regulate your nervous system
This is not just about managing anxiety. It’s about understanding your body, restoring balance, and creating a foundation for mental clarity, resilience, and long-term well-being.
About The Guest:
Dr. Ellen Vora, MD is a board-certified psychiatrist, acupuncturist, and yoga teacher who takes a functional, whole-person approach to mental health. She is the author of The Anatomy of Anxiety and specializes in identifying the root causes of anxiety through physiology, lifestyle, and emotional health.
About Dr. Taz:
Dr. Tasneem Bhatia (Dr. Taz) is a triple board-certified integrative medicine physician,
bestselling author, and founder of hol+ a multi-location integrative medicine practice.
Learn more: https://doctortaz.com/about
Stay Connected:
Connect further to Hol+ at https://holplus.co/- Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell to stay updated on future episodes of hol+.
Book a Hol+ Consultation: https://holplus.co/locations/virtual/
Book a Hol+ Consultation: https://holplus.co/locations/virtual/
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https://www.instagram.com/liveholplus/
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https://www.instagram.com/ellenvoramd/
https://ellenvora.com/
Host & Production Team
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https://www.instagram.com/ellenvoramd/
https://ellenvora.com/
Host & Production Team
Host: Dr. Taz; Produced by ClipGrowth.com (Producer: Pat Gostek)
Chapters
00:00 Why anxiety may not be what you think
02:00 True anxiety vs. physiological anxiety
06:00 The “wide open antenna” and emotional sensitivity
10:00 Why crying is a biological release
13:00 The myth of the chemical imbalance
18:00 The foundations: sleep, nourishment, movement
22:00 Why medications don’t always work long-term
25:00 Withdrawal and hidden medication effects
30:00 Anxiety in kids and teens
37:00 ADHD as a “tired brain”
39:00 Sleep, breathing, and oxygenation
41:00 Gut health, food, and inflammation
46:00 Women, hormones, and emotional health
53:00 Reclaiming intuition and nervous system balance
Creators and Guests
Host
What is hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic?
hol+ with Dr. Taz MD is redefining modern medicine through a comprehensive, evidence-based holistic approach; integrating functional medicine, integrative medicine, and time-tested healing systems to treat the whole human, not just symptoms.
Hosted by Dr. Tasneem Bhatia (Dr. Taz), triple board-certified physician in integrative, functional, and holistic medicine, bestselling Penguin Random House author, and founder of hol+; a comprehensive evidence-based holistic medicine platform with clinics in Atlanta, New York City, and Los Angeles, and virtual care available nationwide.
At the heart of hol+ is a revolutionary framework: the Five Body Map- physical, mental, emotional, energetic, and social/community bodies that create whole health. This whole-human approach connects hormone imbalances, gut dysfunction, microinflammation, cortisol dysregulation, metabolic disease, autoimmune conditions, perimenopause, and stress-driven illness to the full spectrum of who we are; body, mind, and spirit.
Each episode explores Dr. Taz’s original clinical frameworks ;The Cortisol Loop, Microinflammation, and The Invisible Load alongside conversations with leading experts, celebrities, and thought leaders including Sophie Grégoire Trudeau, Katherine Schwarzenegger, Cameron Mathison, Carol Alt, Jane Seymour, Tamsen Fadal, and Kris Carr.
Topics include hormone health, gut health, GLP-1 and metabolic therapy, thyroid dysfunction, weight loss, inflammation, autoimmune disease, mental and emotional wellness, energetic health, and the future of holistic medicine.
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This is medicine beyond the exam room. Welcome to hol+
[00:00:00] Dr. Ellen Vora: A DHD brain in many ways. It's not just distracted, it's tired, and it [00:00:05] is trying to keep itself awake through hyperactivity, [00:00:10] through hyperfocus on the things that are very rewarding, um, through all kinds of stimming [00:00:15] activities. Right? So it's a tired brain, and the reason it's tired is sometimes because of sleep disorder [00:00:20] breathing.
[00:00:20] Dr. Ellen Vora: So if a child has a DHD and they are breathing through their [00:00:25] mouth while they sleep to me, we don't proceed until we have [00:00:30] addressed that breathing.
[00:00:30] Dr. Taz: Oh, wow.
[00:00:31] Dr. Ellen Vora: Because that's a. That's an exhausted brain 'cause it's never [00:00:35] getting proper oxygenation overnight and deep sleep.
[00:00:38] Dr. Taz: Today I am bringing another friend [00:00:40] onto the show.
[00:00:40] Dr. Taz: Please join me in welcoming Dr. Ellen Vora. She's a board certified [00:00:45] psychiatrist and acupuncturist and a yoga teacher who takes a functional whole [00:00:50] person approach to mental health rather than suppressing symptoms with [00:00:55] medication. She focuses on root causes by integrating physical health, sleep, [00:01:00] nutrition, digestion, thought patterns, relationships, community, [00:01:05] and connection with nature and purpose.
[00:01:07] Dr. Ellen Vora: We're taught that crying is [00:01:10] somehow the wrong thing to do, a weakness, a burden on the people around us. But I think [00:01:15] we've gotten that completely wrong. This is the wisdom of the body saying, you need a release [00:01:20] right now. Tears contain something called A CTH. Mm-hmm. Adrenal Cort Tropic Hormone, [00:01:25] a component of our stress cascade, but only emotional tears.
[00:01:29] Dr. Ellen Vora: [00:01:30] So if you're cutting an onion and tearing up those tears do not contain a [00:01:35] CTH.
[00:01:35] Dr. Taz: Oh my gosh.
[00:01:35] Dr. Ellen Vora: So emotional tears really are a medicinal process. It's a way the body [00:01:40] disburdens our bloodstream of our stress response.
[00:01:41] Dr. Taz: Fascinating.
[00:01:42] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:01:43] Dr. Taz: She's the author of The [00:01:45] Anatomy of Anxiety, where she offers a holistic framework for understanding anxiety, [00:01:50] not just as a label, but as a response rooted in physiology and life [00:01:55] context.
[00:01:55] Dr. Ellen Vora: What we know about a medication like a benzo is that. Even though in the short [00:02:00] term it's actually quite effective, right? Like it, does it help with a panic attack in the moment? It does, but then [00:02:05] in the medium and long term, it seems to exacerbate the original problem. [00:02:10] And I've seen far too many people take their medication and not know [00:02:15] to attribute their daily panic attacks to the [00:02:20] interdose withdrawal.
[00:02:20] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:02:21] Dr. Ellen Vora: That when they're coming down off that patient just day to
[00:02:22] Dr. Taz: day. Like literally day to day.
[00:02:24] Dr. Ellen Vora: [00:02:25] Right. Okay. So I think these are the ways that just being a little bit more. Um, [00:02:30] cavalier about reaching for pharmaceuticals can actually introduce more mental [00:02:35] fragility, more panic, more suicidality, and I think it might.[00:02:40]
[00:02:40] Dr. Taz: This episode is sponsored by Whole Plus, a holistic health platform built [00:02:45] around education, personalization, and integrative care. Whole plus blends [00:02:50] holistic, integrative and functional medicine clinics with learning resources like [00:02:55] blogs, YouTube videos, and of course, this podcast. So you're not just treated, you're [00:03:00] informed.
[00:03:00] Dr. Taz: The platform also includes holistic health quizzes and a curated wellness shop, [00:03:05] helping you make choices that support your body at the root level. Whole [00:03:10] Plus is holistic healthcare designed for real life. Visit [00:03:15] us@wholeplus.co to learn more about the platform. Again, that's HOL
[00:03:19] Dr. Ellen Vora: [00:03:20] ps.co.
[00:03:21] Dr. Taz: All right. It's such a gift to be able to do these [00:03:25] episodes with friends and be able to kind of shed [00:03:30] light on some of the incredible work you know that so many of you are doing.
[00:03:34] Dr. Taz: So I am so [00:03:35] thrilled to have you here today, Ellen. It's, it's a joy. I know Ellen from a lot of different venues, but [00:03:40] many of you may not know, but she's a psychiatrist. She's worked in the anxiety [00:03:45] space for a while. Her last book was The Anatomy of Anxiety. We're gonna jump right into [00:03:50] anxiety because it is the number one mental health condition out there.
[00:03:54] Dr. Taz: I think it's [00:03:55] amongst kids, women, men. I mean, I think it's an epidemic. What's [00:04:00] going on?
[00:04:00] Dr. Ellen Vora: What's going on with that? And thanks for having me. It's good to be here. Yes. So I think [00:04:05] there's so much that contributes to why it's such an epidemic, and I see it in as [00:04:10] two main avenues or pathways that lead us into so much anxiety.[00:04:15]
[00:04:15] Dr. Ellen Vora: And the second one, I'll kind of go out of order. Yeah. The second one is the one that's [00:04:20] easier to hear and easier to swallow, and it's the one that most people resonate with, which is to [00:04:25] say, we come by our anxiety, honestly, we are viscerally [00:04:30] connected to the suffering in the world. We feel climate anxiety, we feel anxiety around [00:04:35] democracy.
[00:04:35] Dr. Ellen Vora: We feel anxiety around all of these very real global [00:04:40] events, and we're feeling that. And so that's what I call in my book, true [00:04:45] Anxiety. It's our inner compass. It's nudging us, it's saying. Pay attention. Something is out of [00:04:50] alignment here and it's asking us to show up and help course correct something in the world [00:04:55] could be in our personal lives, our communities, the world at large.
[00:04:59] Dr. Ellen Vora: And that's the one [00:05:00] we all think is the cause of our anxiety. And I do think it's, um, [00:05:05] I think it's attributable much of our anxiety does have to do with this [00:05:10] true our inner compass, but not all of it. And I think that [00:05:15] that's the kind of anxiety that's actually harder to resolve in the near term. It's [00:05:20] where I like to focus more of my energy with patients is what I think we can solve right [00:05:25] away.
[00:05:25] Dr. Taz: So you're actually, that's interesting because you're seeing it, you're kind of framing [00:05:30] anxiety less as this is my problem as more of like, [00:05:35] this is a macro problem, it's a cultural problem. Mm-hmm. Is sort of what you're saying based [00:05:40] on. Everything happening around us currently.
[00:05:42] Dr. Ellen Vora: That's right. True. Anxiety is not something to [00:05:45] pathologize.
[00:05:45] Dr. Ellen Vora: It's not what's wrong with you. This is what's right with us when we are able to [00:05:50] viscerally connect to what's wrong around us. And so the fact that we live in a world
[00:05:54] Dr. Taz: that's a [00:05:55] completely different way to talk about anxiety.
[00:05:57] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:05:57] Dr. Taz: Because most people walk around with anxiety saying, [00:06:00] you like, I'm not enough, or something's wrong with me, or you know, or I have this regimen to [00:06:05] manage it, or whatever it is.
[00:06:06] Dr. Taz: Right. Is seen as a negative Yes. That you're saying. No, that's, it's [00:06:10] good. It's 'cause you're intuitive. It's because you're connected. It's because [00:06:15] you, you can't box out into a hole and block everything else out that's happening with you. [00:06:20] Yeah. That is fascinating to me.
[00:06:21] Dr. Ellen Vora: And our world tells us why are you being so sensitive?
[00:06:23] Dr. Ellen Vora: And we blame ourselves. There's [00:06:25] a lot of negative self-talk that comes with it. But really, if someone has a lot of [00:06:30] true anxiety, I believe it's a sign of a wide open antenna. [00:06:35] An intact heart and wow, if you have a wide open [00:06:40] antenna, we do need to reframe, we need to recognize this is not something to [00:06:45] pathologize, this is a gift.
[00:06:47] Dr. Ellen Vora: It's, but it is also a liability [00:06:50] because we live in a loud world. So if you have a wide open antenna, it's not something wrong with you, but [00:06:55] it is something that requires tremendous care.
[00:06:57] Dr. Taz: Oh my gosh. Okay. So wide open antenna. We, uh, this [00:07:00] is, we better settle in here. We, we are gonna, we're gonna be at this thing.
[00:07:04] Dr. Taz: [00:07:05] Okay. So wide open antenna. Let's talk about that for a minute. Someone listening or watching us is like, [00:07:10] what does she mean? Can you, can you help frame that a little bit? What, what do you [00:07:15] mean? How can someone identify with the fact that they may be a little bit more open and. [00:07:20] Receiving more input than somebody else.
[00:07:22] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. Well, I'll first acknowledge if [00:07:25] you're not someone with a wide open antenna, that's also not SEL pathologized. Right. I think that humanity [00:07:30] needs to represent the full spectrum of this. We need someone to be in the [00:07:35] OR and remain cool under pressure. We need a pilot. We need someone who can remain [00:07:40] unflappable, and that's not bad.
[00:07:41] Dr. Ellen Vora: We need all of this represented in. The [00:07:45] human genome, but we also need someone who can't make it through the evening [00:07:50] news, without feeling like they're about to cry. Mm-hmm. Because we need that person too, who's gonna stay [00:07:55] so viscerally connected to the suffering around them that they're going, that they can't help but respond to [00:08:00] that.
[00:08:00] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:08:00] Dr. Ellen Vora: And so if you have a wide open antenna, um, I do just want people [00:08:05] to embrace that, to recognize, even though our world says you're being so sensitive, [00:08:10] this is a superpower. That's an overused term. It's gotten pretty diluted. But [00:08:15] it is in a way, this preternatural ability to pick up on data [00:08:20] that other people aren't picking up on.
[00:08:22] Dr. Ellen Vora: Whether that's coming through, um, a [00:08:25] very sophisticated neurologic system, whether it's something more supernatural, [00:08:30] who really knows. But I think some of us are taking in [00:08:35] information that other people are not aware of.
[00:08:38] Dr. Taz: Well, what's the [00:08:40] answer for those type of folks then? Like, you know, are they supposed to block [00:08:45] off?
[00:08:45] Dr. Taz: Are they supposed to shut down? We can't all retreat. I know some of us [00:08:50] like won't scroll at certain times. Yeah. Or won't watch the news consistently. But if [00:08:55] we're gonna stay in the context that, you know, anxiety is, is your sort [00:09:00] of visceral, you know, experience of, of the universe and what's happening. [00:09:05] You know, what does somebody do?
[00:09:06] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. So I am not gonna advocate for blocking off though. I [00:09:10] know some people sometimes have to do that in the near term just to cope.
[00:09:13] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:09:13] Dr. Ellen Vora: But I think of it [00:09:15] like. We all need to brush our teeth and hopefully we all floss. But if you have a wide [00:09:20] open antenna, you have a few more daily self-care practices that are required to keep you [00:09:25] intact and it's grounding practices.
[00:09:28] Dr. Ellen Vora: I think we need more time [00:09:30] unplugged in stillness, in silence, ideally in nature.
[00:09:34] Dr. Taz: [00:09:35] Mm-hmm.
[00:09:35] Dr. Ellen Vora: Maybe you're doing the dishes and you choose not to listen to a podcast. You just allow [00:09:40] for silence or wordless music so that your brain can defragment and close down some [00:09:45] tabs. I think that we need to move a lot of emotion, so.
[00:09:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: Crying. I think tears are [00:09:50] very medicinal if you feel a lot on behalf of humanity. We're taught that crying [00:09:55] is somehow the wrong thing to do, a weakness, a burden on the people around us. [00:10:00] But I think we've gotten that completely wrong. Um,
[00:10:03] Dr. Taz: I love that tears are [00:10:05] medicinal.
[00:10:05] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:10:05] Dr. Taz: Not weakness.
[00:10:06] Dr. Ellen Vora: No. This is the wisdom of the body saying you need a release [00:10:10] right now, and it offers it to us.
[00:10:12] Dr. Ellen Vora: But then culturally, we've been conditioned to suppress it. The minute we [00:10:15] start to cry, we apologize, and then we try to make it as small and brief as [00:10:20] possible when in fact, I think we need to get better at crying in a bigger, [00:10:25] more complete, blubbery, ugly way. We, it's an [00:10:30] interesting data on tears, is that, um, tears contain [00:10:35] something called a CTH.
[00:10:36] Dr. Ellen Vora: Mm-hmm. Adrenocorticotropic Hormone, a component of our stress [00:10:40] cascade, but. Only emotional tears. So if you're cutting an onion and [00:10:45] tearing up those tears do not contain a CTH. Oh
[00:10:48] Dr. Taz: my gosh.
[00:10:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: So emotional tears really [00:10:50] are a medicinal process. It's a way the body disburdens our bloodstream of our stress response.
[00:10:54] Dr. Taz: [00:10:55] Fascinating.
[00:10:55] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:10:56] Dr. Taz: Wow.
[00:10:57] Dr. Ellen Vora: And so we need to cry more if we have a wide open antenna. [00:11:00] And, and I think we do need boundaries. And something like not [00:11:05] looking at the phone first thing in the morning right before bed, putting some [00:11:10] parameters around doom scrolling and treating certain times of the day as sacred is very protective.[00:11:15]
[00:11:15] Dr. Ellen Vora: Because I think when someone is so viscerally connected, they're at risk of [00:11:20] getting burned out. It's like empathy overload.
[00:11:23] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:11:23] Dr. Ellen Vora: And um, but [00:11:25] ultimately that empathy, it's driven by a desire to wanna make a difference, to [00:11:30] be a force for good in the world. Yeah. But we can't carry out that work if we are [00:11:35] strung out, bleary-eyed undersleep, and where [00:11:40] our attention gets pulled to every new cause, every single day.
[00:11:43] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:11:43] Dr. Ellen Vora: So we need. [00:11:45] A lot of discipline around it so that we can stay intact, rested [00:11:50] clear, and we can carry out our highest contribution
[00:11:53] Dr. Taz: is there. And [00:11:55] especially as a, a psychiatrist, right? Like most people put anxiety in the box of this [00:12:00] is a psychological disorder. Right? And I know you've reframed it to say, you know, [00:12:05] this is, this is a person who's very in tuned with their environment and things like [00:12:10] that.
[00:12:10] Dr. Taz: But how much is just like. Chemistry or physiological, right? Like [00:12:15] you're low in magnesium, you know, or your progesterone's off. So [00:12:20] how, how does somebody differentiate between like, this is a chemistry equation versus this is [00:12:25] a, you know, an issue with, uh, just being open.
[00:12:28] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. So. You [00:12:30] brought me sort of to the, I went out of order.
[00:12:32] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah, that's true. True anxiety is also not a [00:12:35] psychological condition. I think that that's a sign of strength. You're connecting to what's wrong. Right. [00:12:40] But then I do think that there's a lot that's driving our anxiety that we do want [00:12:45] to fix, but I don't believe that it's what we've been taught, what we've been taught is that [00:12:50] anxiety is a genetic, chemical imbalance.
[00:12:51] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:12:52] Dr. Ellen Vora: It's your genes. Yep. It's your serotonin. [00:12:55] It's all happening right here from the neck up.
[00:12:56] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:12:57] Dr. Ellen Vora: And that if you're anxious, [00:13:00] you um, you have this low serotonin, so no big deal. Correct it with a pill. And if [00:13:05] that, that's the narrative we've been given. If that worked [00:13:10] for more people, I could buy into that.
[00:13:13] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:13:13] Dr. Ellen Vora: But I am [00:13:15] sitting here at the front lines. I've been in practice for 14 years and. [00:13:20] It doesn't work enough of the time. Mm. And so I see the people that wash up to shore [00:13:25] that have tried that approach, and they've tried this medication and then they increase the dose and then they [00:13:30] added an augmentation strategy, right?
[00:13:31] Dr. Ellen Vora: And they start to feel like, well, I have a chemical [00:13:35] imbalance. It's supposed to be corrected with a pill. I'm still suffering, even though I'm highly medicated. Right. Highly [00:13:40] therapized. So people start to despair. They start to think maybe I am [00:13:45] uniquely beyond repair. Mm. It works for everybody else, but not for me.
[00:13:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: And I don't want anybody [00:13:50] believing that they're stuck or that it's hopeless in that way. And I don't think it's true. [00:13:55] So when someone's anxious, I think of it as this has modifiable [00:14:00] root causes. Sometimes it's all that true anxiety. It's all the psychospiritual ways that [00:14:05] we're perceiving what's out of balance, but often it is simply that something is [00:14:10] outta balance in the physical body, not in a way that's your genetic destiny.
[00:14:14] Dr. Ellen Vora: [00:14:15] Mm-hmm. Just a temporary, stupid physiologic state of imbalance from aspects of [00:14:20] modern life blood sugar crashes. Yeah. A bad night of sleep, a hangover, an [00:14:25] extra cold brew coffee. We were up late doom scrolling these things that generate a stress response in the [00:14:30] body, and then we subjectively experience that stress response as anxiety, [00:14:35] but none of that needs to be happening.
[00:14:36] Dr. Ellen Vora: We can identify the root cause, address it, [00:14:40] and eliminate all of this unnecessary suffering.
[00:14:43] Dr. Taz: What would you say to people who [00:14:45] may not even be dialed into that diagnosis of anxiety right now, but they're just experiencing [00:14:50] things in their physical body?
[00:14:51] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:14:51] Dr. Taz: Maybe even in their mental or emotional bodies.
[00:14:53] Dr. Taz: What, how [00:14:55] would they know and is it even necessary? How would they know? Or is it even necessary to [00:15:00] call. Anxiety. Yeah. What is their, what can they kind of. [00:15:05] Recognize
[00:15:05] Dr. Ellen Vora: this comes up a lot and, and, 'cause I'm talking about this [00:15:10] body mind connection. Yeah. And so sometimes someone will kind of come at [00:15:15] my philosophy on anxiety from the other direction and they'll kind of [00:15:20] say like, I'm having this stomach pain or this muscle tension.
[00:15:23] Dr. Taz: Right. Right.
[00:15:23] Dr. Ellen Vora: And I can tell that [00:15:25] what someone wants me to say is, oh, those physical symptoms are [00:15:30] actually anxiety.
[00:15:31] Dr. Taz: I'm so curious what you're gonna say,
[00:15:32] Dr. Ellen Vora: but I, I guess I'm not really in the business of [00:15:35] putting that word in someone's mouth if they're not already subjectively identifying with it. I don't think it's the [00:15:40] greatest term, but since we must misunderstand the concept so much, I feel like it just adds more [00:15:45] complexity to the picture.
[00:15:45] Dr. Ellen Vora: Mm-hmm. I want. Relief from their suffering.
[00:15:48] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:15:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: And when, [00:15:50] when we're thinking about like the gut brain connection
[00:15:52] Dr. Taz: mm-hmm.
[00:15:53] Dr. Ellen Vora: So much of the time [00:15:55] that conversation is focused on the fact, it's like a top down communication, right? That if we're [00:16:00] stressed, if we're anxious, it will impact our gut.
[00:16:02] Dr. Taz: Right?
[00:16:02] Dr. Ellen Vora: So if someone is saying, I have all these digestive issues, I [00:16:05] have IBS, and then someone says, it's actually just your anxiety.
[00:16:07] Dr. Ellen Vora: They're like, oh, it's my anxiety. But that [00:16:10] doesn't really give us a path to relief from suffering. 'cause that takes us right back to where we started, [00:16:15] which is, so I guess you should try Lexapro.
[00:16:16] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:17] Dr. Ellen Vora: And then go down that journey. [00:16:20] Whereas I think that. I'm more interested in the bottom up part of that [00:16:25] conversation.
[00:16:25] Dr. Ellen Vora: Okay. Which is to say, yeah, your gut is unwell because whose [00:16:30] isn't. In modern life, we've been subjected to multiple courses of antibiotics and [00:16:35] chlorinated tap water, and we don't consume fermented foods and we're not playing in soil. So we're missing [00:16:40] microbes. We're missing diversity. We are consuming Roundup, it's inflaming our gut lining.
[00:16:44] Dr. Ellen Vora: We have [00:16:45] all of these ways that our gut are is compromised and that is contributing [00:16:50] to the anxiety and the stress. So I like that because it's the easier [00:16:55] entry point. If the gut is unwell, let's focus on healing the gut. We can do [00:17:00] that as opposed to if we're anxious and that's contributing to digestive [00:17:05] symptoms, that's a long road ahead.
[00:17:07] Dr. Ellen Vora: Mm-hmm. And it's often not even a very effective [00:17:10] pathway to fighting relief from symptoms. So I prefer to look at it as there's two way [00:17:15] communication between the gut and the brain. And the easier and more effective place to start is the gut. [00:17:20]
[00:17:21] Dr. Taz: Yeah, so do you start with the, probably the greatest [00:17:25] physiological pain point.
[00:17:26] Dr. Taz: Is that kind of like a. Good way of people to think about it. Like if they're [00:17:30] having more gut symptoms versus more like cognitive symptoms versus sleep, you know? [00:17:35]
[00:17:35] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:17:35] Dr. Taz: How, like, what's a kind of a, sort of a, a way for them to [00:17:40] begin
[00:17:40] Dr. Ellen Vora: It is different with every single patient. Absolutely. Based on a million [00:17:45] considerations and often just what are they able to start with,
[00:17:47] Dr. Taz: right?
[00:17:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: Because
[00:17:48] Dr. Taz: right.
[00:17:49] Dr. Ellen Vora: One person [00:17:50] wants to take supplements, someone else needs to get into bed earlier and it Right. It just varies. But, [00:17:55] um, I think what I've learned over time is that there are few things I reach [00:18:00] for that seem to be approachable enough that are somewhat [00:18:05] universally impactful. Okay. And can make, can be a quick win.
[00:18:08] Dr. Ellen Vora: And then get someone down a [00:18:10] path where they can make more changes. I like someone to keep the phone outta the bedroom at [00:18:15] bedtime. Just that alone.
[00:18:16] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:18:17] Dr. Ellen Vora: Setting up your charger somewhere else in your home and then around [00:18:20] let's say nine o'clock, you kiss your phone goodnight like phone, I love you, I'm gonna miss you.
[00:18:24] Dr. Ellen Vora: You enter [00:18:25] your bedroom without your phone, you read Nu Han or something, life affirming, and then you fall [00:18:30] asleep. And that works on multiple dimensions. 'cause then you're not seeing the blue spectrum [00:18:35] light of the screen suppressing melatonin. Disrupting the circadian rhythm. We're not [00:18:40] doom scrolling, which we live in the attention economy.
[00:18:42] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. Which means that this has been [00:18:45] designed to be addictive. Yeah. This is endless scroll. So we don't ever have a stopping cue that [00:18:50] tells us, Hey, this might be a good time to put the phone away and go to bed. We scroll endlessly so we stay up [00:18:55] later. We don't get good
[00:18:55] Dr. Taz: sleep. Is that your like number one thing?
[00:18:57] Dr. Taz: Is it technology and the blue [00:19:00] light like. Number one thing. If you need a starting point,
[00:19:03] Dr. Ellen Vora: it's probably that
[00:19:04] Dr. Taz: there,
[00:19:04] Dr. Ellen Vora: or [00:19:05] like getting a Squatty Potty. Wait, why
[00:19:07] Dr. Taz: a Squatty Potty? The
[00:19:08] Dr. Ellen Vora: Squatty Potty [00:19:10] is this stool that goes up the base of the toilet and it helps us [00:19:15] restore anatomical position for elimination.
[00:19:18] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:19:18] Dr. Ellen Vora: And that is so [00:19:20] impactful. So for so many people and it's, it's, I like an intervention that [00:19:25] is inexpensive, non-invasive, has biologic plausibility for why it works [00:19:30] and it can change your life. Mm. Squatty potty and blue blocking glasses. And we're the we [00:19:35] bedroom. We're set.
[00:19:36] Dr. Taz: All right. Well I do wanna ask, uh, in all [00:19:40] seriousness between the anxiety toolbox that's out there, which is growing and massive and [00:19:45] probably more things are being added as we speak.
[00:19:47] Dr. Taz: We've got everything from [00:19:50] mindfulness and meditation work apps that go with that, right?
[00:19:53] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:19:54] Dr. Taz: To, [00:19:55] uh, supplements. Even I've, you know, mentioned so many of them over the years. Gaba, [00:20:00] theanine, magnesium, I could go on to medications
[00:20:03] Dr. Ellen Vora: mm-hmm.
[00:20:04] Dr. Taz: [00:20:05] To acupuncture, craniosacral therapy. Now we have PMF [00:20:10] mats, grounding mats, grounding sheets, uh, I'm sure I've forgotten so [00:20:15] many, but the, and then we have of course, the world of pharmaceuticals.
[00:20:18] Dr. Taz: We've got a massive [00:20:20] anxiety toolbox. Talk to us about. How we need to [00:20:25] think about that toolbox, how we need to navigate it to not get overwhelmed when you already have [00:20:30] anxiety and what is the role of pharmaceuticals in this equation?
[00:20:34] Dr. Ellen Vora: [00:20:35] Yeah. So, so much of that toolbox and it, it's interesting, I'm curious how listeners feel when they hear that [00:20:40] I, as someone who professionally doles out these tools, familiar with this toolbox, like [00:20:45] I kind of have to catch my breath right after hearing it.
[00:20:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: Right. Right. It's overwhelming
[00:20:49] Dr. Taz: even as I say [00:20:50] it, I'm just like, oh my gosh.
[00:20:51] Dr. Ellen Vora: Gives
[00:20:52] Dr. Taz: us anxiety. Yeah.
[00:20:52] Dr. Ellen Vora: And so I don't, none of [00:20:55] that is my first line. And I think a lot of those tools, they're all useful, that many of them have evidence [00:21:00] to back up their utility. Um, they're all in my armamentarium. I'm reaching for each of those [00:21:05] sometimes.
[00:21:06] Dr. Ellen Vora: But, um, I think it overlooks the [00:21:10] fundamentals and it still has the same narrative of [00:21:15] if you're anxious, you know, if we're taught that if you're anxious, it's a. [00:21:20] Zoloft deficiency disorder. Right. We've subbed in like it's an L-theanine deficiency disorder. Right. But it [00:21:25] still assumes something broken about us.
[00:21:27] Dr. Ellen Vora: And I think what I, per, the way I [00:21:30] prefer to look at it is that your body works. Your body is pretty well designed. [00:21:35] Exceptions are the knee joints and menopause, but it is a pretty good design. Mm-hmm. [00:21:40] And, um, if it is not well then we have to look at the inputs. [00:21:45] What are we not giving our body that helps us feel intact?
[00:21:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: What are we putting in that's [00:21:50] getting us outta balance? And so I don't even wanna start band-aiding Gotcha. Until we've addressed the [00:21:55] foundation. And the foundation is primarily sleep. [00:22:00] Nourishment and movement.
Mm.
[00:22:01] Dr. Ellen Vora: And you could add a kind of an eye towards the [00:22:05] psychospiritual needs. Mm-hmm. We have like community.
[00:22:07] Dr. Ellen Vora: Mm-hmm. Like a sense of [00:22:10] purpose in our lives, connection to nature. But that is the next chapter. But I think even just [00:22:15] looking at sleep, nourishment and movement and making sure those are locked in [00:22:20] before we start reaching for supplements and pharmaceuticals.
[00:22:22] Dr. Taz: If you're listening to this and [00:22:25] thinking, I know something is often my body, but I don't know where to start.[00:22:30]
[00:22:30] Dr. Taz: This is for you. That's why I created the circle. The circle [00:22:35] is my private community where I and my team focus on understanding your body [00:22:40] from hormones and stress to metabolic health and longevity with real life guidance that [00:22:45] you can actually use. This is about clarity and consistency and support [00:22:50] beyond the exam room and maybe outside of all the different appointments and [00:22:55] experts that you've been running around to.
[00:22:57] Dr. Taz: You can try the circle with a one month trial [00:23:00] using the promo code podcast@wholeplus.co back slash circle. [00:23:05] Again, that's whole plus HOL [00:23:10] ppls.co/circle. Alright, let's jump back into the episode and what is your sort of [00:23:15] experience with the pharmaceuticals outta curiosity? Like when do you feel like it's the right [00:23:20] time to grab one of those?
[00:23:21] Dr. Ellen Vora: I feel like it's the right time. Uh, the way I look at [00:23:25] them is that they can be a bridge, they can be an outstretched hand that pulls someone out of a very dark [00:23:30] place and helps them get onto solid ground so that they can, right, do the practices that get sleep and [00:23:35] nourishment locked in. But um, I think that [00:23:40] their efficacy is disappointing and I.[00:23:45]
[00:23:45] Dr. Ellen Vora: I took an oath of first do no harm.
[00:23:47] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: And what I can no [00:23:50] longer feel in my bones is that starting someone on a [00:23:55] pharmaceutical is, um, my best attempt at [00:24:00] mitigating harm.
[00:24:00] Dr. Taz: Oh, wow.
[00:24:02] Dr. Ellen Vora: And, and I, and it, I'm quick to [00:24:05] follow that up by saying I'm a psychiatrist. I prescribe these medications. Right. I don't have any [00:24:10] dogmatic, uh, philosophy against them.
[00:24:12] Dr. Ellen Vora: And if someone's listening right now and taking them, which [00:24:15] I'm sure, I'm sure there are on the majority, perhaps, um, it, you [00:24:20] shouldn't second guess that or look back. The question is always, is it helping you? And if it is, great.
[00:24:24] Dr. Taz: [00:24:25] Right.
[00:24:25] Dr. Ellen Vora: And if it isn't, then I want you to know you're not stuck and we have [00:24:30] so many ways to support you.
[00:24:31] Dr. Ellen Vora: But the thing that has me most hesitant about [00:24:35] starting someone on a medication Yes. Is actually the withdrawal process.
[00:24:38] Dr. Taz: Yes. I know. I've [00:24:40] witnessed that firsthand on patients.
[00:24:41] Dr. Ellen Vora: And it's under. Represented and [00:24:45] discussed. We are not taught about this. Even psychiatrists are not taught about this. We [00:24:50] are taught to say that if someone goes off their medication and they become symptomatic, we call that a [00:24:55] relapse.
[00:24:55] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:55] Dr. Ellen Vora: What I have now come to appreciate is that we can't even speak to whether or not someone's in a [00:25:00] relapse, because in that moment they're in withdrawal.
[00:25:02] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:25:03] Dr. Ellen Vora: And that is the lion's share of [00:25:05] what's creating their symptoms.
[00:25:07] Dr. Taz: So I'll never forget the day I had, you know, it was early [00:25:10] in practice in my practice years, and I had a patient on Venlafaxine.
[00:25:13] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:25:14] Dr. Taz: [00:25:15] And she pulled herself off, you know, without guidance [00:25:20] and just thought like, okay, I'm better. I can do this now. And showed up in my [00:25:25] exam room on the floor, like riding around with her husband. You know, like her husband was just, I don't know [00:25:30] what to do with her. You know, the withdrawal was so severe.
[00:25:33] Dr. Taz: So, you know, [00:25:35] again. And I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but as a practicing [00:25:40] psychiatrist, where many feel like the greatest criticism, you know, [00:25:45] we have a psychiatry today. To be completely honest, I think the greatest criticism of [00:25:50] psychiatry is that it's pharmaceutical based. That you go there to get a prescription.
[00:25:53] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:25:53] Dr. Taz: Versus going to a [00:25:55] psychologist or a therapist or somebody else. Right. You know? What would you say to that? Like what would you say to [00:26:00] the field of psychiatry in general and where it's trending or heading? Are they there with you [00:26:05] in seeing that there's a place for it? But so many patients, [00:26:10] Ellen, like to this day come in.
[00:26:11] Dr. Taz: Oh yeah, I've been on Zoloft for like 20 years, or I've been [00:26:15] on Prozac since I was 15. Or I, you know what I mean? Like they have this long history [00:26:20] with the medications.
[00:26:20] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:26:21] Dr. Taz: You know, so where's the field of psychiatry [00:26:25] headed? What do we do with people that have been on medications for such a long period of [00:26:30] time?
[00:26:30] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. I mean, I do think that my field, if we are not in [00:26:35] crisis, we should consider ourselves to be in crisis. But I, but I think that I wanna give [00:26:40] grace in a couple different ways. Yeah. One is that I have yet to, to think, [00:26:45] I, when I see individual practitioners, I know these people. They're my colleagues.
[00:26:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: Right. We went to med school with them. [00:26:50] Right. Residency. These are very hardworking, very caring
[00:26:53] Dr. Taz: individuals. No falls on the individuals. [00:26:55] I'm talking about the system. The system in which we were all trained.
[00:26:59] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:26:59] Dr. Taz: The [00:27:00] practice of this, like what will it take? To [00:27:05] shift the field to a different place.
[00:27:07] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:27:07] Dr. Taz: Doctors are amazing. I've always said that I don't think I've [00:27:10] met a doctor that went into medicine without any other purpose [00:27:15] other than I wanna help people and serve. Yeah. This is not a profession that you go into, like to make a quick [00:27:20] buck or like, you know, or any of those things, you know? So it's, this is not about [00:27:25] the physicians, it's about the field and the [00:27:30] mill that we're all put into, right?
[00:27:32] Dr. Taz: Yeah. And told that this is the way we should be [00:27:35] practicing. That's kind of where
[00:27:37] Dr. Ellen Vora: it's our training.
[00:27:38] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:27:38] Dr. Ellen Vora: And we're cogs in a machine [00:27:40] that's much bigger than any individual and maybe has some, at least [00:27:45] financially motivated interests that are influencing our clinical decision making. Yeah. [00:27:50] But I think that, you know, to take many steps back, this all started as [00:27:55] I think a very earnest attempt to help find relief for people.
[00:27:58] Dr. Ellen Vora: Right. And they saw [00:28:00] tuberculosis meds. Yeah. Modulating serotonin, creating relief from depression. They're like, oh, you know, this is [00:28:05] something we should pursue. And it, it came with this transition from a very morally stigmatizing [00:28:10] approach to mental health. Like, yeah, it's a relationship with your mother.
[00:28:12] Dr. Ellen Vora: It's a moral infirmity, right. [00:28:15] To the disease model of mental health that said, no, nevermind we got that wrong. It's your genes, [00:28:20] it's your serotonin. Which came with a lot of, uh, alleviation of. The [00:28:25] stigma, it basically said, this isn't your fault. Mm-hmm. This is your genes and it's [00:28:30] inevitability.
[00:28:30] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:30] Dr. Ellen Vora: And that was the spirit of that was beautiful.
[00:28:33] Dr. Ellen Vora: Where we are now is [00:28:35] that that narrative only gets you so far. If the meds work for you, [00:28:40] you're okay if the meds don't work for you. That narrative actually can create quite a lot of hopelessness [00:28:45] and it's not even our most accurate narrative about mental health anyway. And then it [00:28:50] really sets us up to, um, make a lot of money for the pharmaceutical industry.
[00:28:54] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. Yeah. And, and [00:28:55] so to me, mental health is the body outta balance. Mental [00:29:00] health is physical health. And I just want someone to experience relief from suffering. I think of it all like a [00:29:05] mountain. Mm-hmm. Healing is this summiting a mountain. Getting to the top of the mountain means you're [00:29:10] feeling well.
[00:29:10] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. You're hopeful. You have energy, clear thinking. You're thriving in your life. [00:29:15] And we're currently seeing, there are these two paths up this mountain. [00:29:20] It's psychotherapy and medication. And for some people those paths get them all the [00:29:25] way to the top and that's a victory. But there are many people who hit a dead [00:29:30] end.
[00:29:30] Dr. Ellen Vora: Mm. And then hit multiple dead ends. Trying to take different approaches to [00:29:35] this. And what I really wanna encourage the conversation to expand to is [00:29:40] bush whacking.
[00:29:40] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:29:41] Dr. Ellen Vora: Bush whacking up this mountain that you can get to the dead end of meds and therapy. And [00:29:45] you can say, well there's actually this other little not so well worn path over here that looks at the role [00:29:50] of inflammation.
[00:29:50] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. Or the role of sleep apnea or mouth breathing. Mm-hmm. Or vitamin [00:29:55] B12 or end. And and mm-hmm. And so, um, when. When someone is [00:30:00] getting stuck, I just want them to know there are other ways, there are other
[00:30:02] Dr. Taz: ways,
[00:30:03] Dr. Ellen Vora: this mountain,
[00:30:03] Dr. Taz: there are ways that there are other ways to deal with this. [00:30:05] I wanna talk about kids for a second.
[00:30:06] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:30:07] Dr. Taz: I think, you know, I have an 18-year-old, as I told you, headed off [00:30:10] to college. Uh, she has friends, we've been observing and watching [00:30:15] them over the last probably, you know, six or seven years. And the prevalence [00:30:20] of anxiety amongst her community, especially amongst our girls is, is [00:30:25] pretty high. You know, and we see it in practice as well.
[00:30:27] Dr. Taz: So, you know, what's happening with [00:30:30] our children, you know? Mm-hmm. And their anxiety levels. [00:30:35] And now the prescribing to them and, you know, I, I share the story often. Like [00:30:40] she was going through a pretty dark spot in middle school and, you know, it was really [00:30:45] due to social. I don't wanna say isolation, that's not a fair word, but like, sort of [00:30:50] social displacement maybe that's a better word.
[00:30:52] Dr. Taz: You know?
[00:30:53] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:30:53] Dr. Taz: And I think that was [00:30:55] the root for her and, and just kind of feeling older than the people around her and not really finding her [00:31:00] people, whatever, whatever we wanna call it. That's a story for her to tell one day. But bottom line [00:31:05] is we had already tried a few things and I almost out of pseudo [00:31:10] desperation, you know, uh, I agreed to have her started on a.
[00:31:14] Dr. Taz: Very low [00:31:15] dose anxiety medication. And then I think a week or so later I had my, it was like my 50th birthday [00:31:20] party. So I went outta town for the first time. The last time I was outta town with her was when she was like 18 months old. [00:31:25] And sure enough, within 24 to 48 hours, she had a horrific reaction. So it's scared us [00:31:30] both away from any type of anxiety medication moving forward.
[00:31:34] Dr. Taz: But [00:31:35] you know, I see these kids all the time in our practices and in our communities that are on these [00:31:40] medications that have a diagnosis of anxiety. You know, I don't feel good about it for our [00:31:45] children. I feel like we need to be thinking about this differently. You know? What would you say to that?
[00:31:49] Dr. Ellen Vora: A [00:31:50] lot.
[00:31:50] Dr. Ellen Vora: So
[00:31:52] Dr. Taz: I set this one up.
[00:31:54] Dr. Ellen Vora: Lemme see [00:31:55] if I, because I have like six bullet points. Alright, got it. So one is that
[00:31:58] Dr. Taz: edit, edit, edit.
[00:31:59] Dr. Ellen Vora: The the, the [00:32:00] youth have an intact antenna. Yeah. Right. So like they are feeling. We're all so old and [00:32:05] concretized and their feeling on behalf of humanity, what's like the way [00:32:10] our trajectory is off and how if you play this out over months, years, centuries, like we are [00:32:15] headed for destruction.
[00:32:15] Dr. Ellen Vora: They're sensing that they have a lot of true anxiety and let's honor that. And [00:32:20] yet I think there's so much, what I would call false or physical or avoidable [00:32:25] anxiety happening in young people. Some of that is the work of Jonathan Hyatt and Jean [00:32:30] Twenge and just screens and social media has been so [00:32:35] destructive,
[00:32:35] Dr. Taz: detrimental,
[00:32:35] Dr. Ellen Vora: and it hit their brains at a time when they're still forming wiring [00:32:40] and in a way that I think we'll just continue to, um, see the devastation of [00:32:45] that.
[00:32:45] Dr. Ellen Vora: And it's just horrifying. And I don't think anyone did anything [00:32:50] wrong here. Yeah, it was, I like the analogy of it's a car was invented before seat belts were [00:32:55] invented. Yeah. So we were driving around without seat belts for a while, and now we're like, oh, this is a [00:33:00] dangerous, this is, this has utility. We're not.
[00:33:03] Dr. Ellen Vora: Going back to the horse and [00:33:05] buggy, but we need some safety measures.
[00:33:06] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:07] Dr. Ellen Vora: I think that there's also a way that [00:33:10] y younger generations have been incubated in a very [00:33:15] inflammatory environment. Uh, and so I think that [00:33:20] physiologically they are, they're missing certain nutrients, certain microbes. I think that [00:33:25] there's a lot that's outta balance.
[00:33:26] Dr. Ellen Vora: The psychiatric medication piece, I heard on your podcast [00:33:30] at the United States, we take 80% of the world's pharmaceuticals [00:33:35] and w. I imagine like if you're facing, when a child is in [00:33:40] crisis, you'll do anything, right? It's out of desperation. You just want them to be okay, and this is [00:33:45] the, what the world says.
[00:33:46] Dr. Ellen Vora: This is what it means to do something about it, is to see a psychiatrist get put on [00:33:50] something. And I think we just need to approach that initial [00:33:55] decision with so much care. Mm-hmm. Because I think we have an attitude of [00:34:00] let's give it a try. Let's see if it helps. If it doesn't help, no harm, no foul. [00:34:05] And I think that the tricky thing about these medications is that sometimes in a way that's [00:34:10] unpredictable, it can.
[00:34:12] Dr. Ellen Vora: Cause harm.
[00:34:13] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:13] Dr. Ellen Vora: And it can, I think, [00:34:15] entrench a certain amount of fragility. I, I think the withdrawal from going off a [00:34:20] medication is a serious issue that we need to be talking about much more. Yeah. And how to mitigate it and how to approach [00:34:25] it. But even something called interdose withdrawal matters.
[00:34:29] Dr. Ellen Vora: And that's where, [00:34:30] let's say someone's taking a benzo like Xanax, right. Or Klonopin. And [00:34:35] they take their medication in the morning and then they're suddenly on a, [00:34:40] a, you know, kind of. Pharmacokinetic curve.
[00:34:43] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:44] Dr. Ellen Vora: And at a [00:34:45] certain point, their body's coming down off of that medication. For some people that can [00:34:50] feel, um, devastating, people can feel really off in that state.
[00:34:54] Dr. Ellen Vora: They can [00:34:55] feel hopeless. They can have dark thoughts, they can have suicidal thoughts. They can feel like they wanna crawl out of their [00:35:00] skin. Yeah. They're just irritable. They can't sleep and they can have panic attacks. So [00:35:05] what we know about a medication like a benzo is that even though in the short [00:35:10] term, it's actually quite effective,
[00:35:11] Dr. Taz: right.
[00:35:11] Dr. Ellen Vora: Does it help with a panic attack in the moment? It does. Yeah. [00:35:15] Um, but then in the medium and long term, it seems to exacerbate the original [00:35:20] problem. And I've seen far too many people take their medication [00:35:25] and not know to attribute their daily panic attacks to [00:35:30] the interdose withdrawal that when they're coming down off that medication
[00:35:33] Dr. Taz: just day to day.
[00:35:34] Dr. Taz: Like [00:35:35] literally day to day.
[00:35:35] Dr. Ellen Vora: Right. Okay. And so I think these are the ways that just being a little bit more, [00:35:40] um, cavalier about reaching for pharmaceuticals can actually introduce [00:35:45] more mental fragility, more panic, more suicidality, and I think it might play an [00:35:50] underappreciated role in the ways that. To be a teenager is hard.
[00:35:54] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. Really [00:35:55] hard. Yeah. It's gotten harder. And then I think we might have inadvertently trying to help created a [00:36:00] whole other thing for people to be grappling with, which is the pinball [00:36:05] game that's set up by the pharmaceuticals themselves.
[00:36:07] Dr. Taz: And then to, to couple that, like [00:36:10] where do the A DHD medications fit into this equation?
[00:36:13] Dr. Ellen Vora: Who I, I'm, I [00:36:15] guess I'm just not gonna make friends today. So
[00:36:17] Dr. Taz: that's, no, we, we need to be [00:36:20] honest, we need to have honest conversations. We need to educate people. Yeah. Because, [00:36:25] you know, you're, you know, walking out of an appointment with a couple of different [00:36:30] pharmaceuticals, you know, I know people listening to the show want a different approach, but like, I [00:36:35] also want a, a guided approach, right?
[00:36:37] Dr. Taz: Like, we want like that middle road. So what is that [00:36:40] middle road?
[00:36:40] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:36:41] Dr. Taz: Again, not to share my own personal stories over and over again, but again, same [00:36:45] daughter has a DD has a DHD, right? Refused to put her on medicine, refused to put her on [00:36:50] medicine, refused to put her on medicine until she hit her junior year because she, she drove that [00:36:55] decision.
[00:36:55] Dr. Taz: She's like, everyone around me is on it. It's unfair. I'm [00:37:00] struggling. And sure enough, we put her on it that year and like her grades were better than [00:37:05] they've ever been throughout her, you know, the last, the last few years of her schooling. And probably made a [00:37:10] difference with how she felt about herself and her self-esteem.
[00:37:12] Dr. Taz: So I'm not trying to take any of that away. [00:37:15] However, she does ride the highs and lows of that inter [00:37:20] dosing that you're talking about. In fact, there was a holiday season last year where I think she didn't take it 'cause [00:37:25] she just didn't wanna take it. She was a fricking nightmare to be around, you know, crying on the floor, crying [00:37:30] about an outfit, crying about, you know, and it was just like, okay, what, what boat are we on today?
[00:37:34] Dr. Taz: You [00:37:35] know, is sort of how, how I felt as a parent, you know? So, again, like. I'm [00:37:40] so empathetic to kids and parents in these positions, but what
[00:37:44] Dr. Ellen Vora: are we [00:37:45] supposed to do with A DHD and stimulants? I don't think there is an easy answer. There's not a one [00:37:50] size fits all. Um, I'm gonna, in a moment talk about some physiologic ways we can [00:37:55] support A DHD behaviors, but I don't mean it as a denial of the very real genetic [00:38:00] component to A A DH.
[00:38:01] Dr. Ellen Vora: ADHD is a, is a real entity. It's happening. Yeah. Um, [00:38:05] and, and I think that sometimes stimulants help someone [00:38:10] enormously can influence the trajectory of whether they have a sense of their own identity [00:38:15] as, I'm a mess up, I'm not. Performing well in school. I'm always disorganized, I'm always [00:38:20] losing things, I'm always messing.
[00:38:20] Dr. Ellen Vora: Right? Like people can take on this sense of themselves and then that's [00:38:25] shaping their belief of, of who they can be in the world. Yeah. And we don't want that. So sometimes the medication [00:38:30] can really rescue someone from that. And it comes with the ose withdrawal, it comes with the come down, it [00:38:35] comes with the sometimes appetite suppression during the day and dehydration, and then [00:38:40] irritability.
[00:38:40] Dr. Ellen Vora: At the end of the day, maybe impacting sleep, may be creating anxiety that requires other medications. [00:38:45] So there's no easy answer there. I think that, um, a kind of a. [00:38:50] Like to me, a no-brainer approach to A DHD is to [00:38:55] at least start with all the physiologic support we can do at the beginning. And it may or may [00:39:00] not solve the problem.
[00:39:01] Dr. Ellen Vora: Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. But, um, when I think [00:39:05] about A-D-H-D-I first think about sleep. Mm. And when I think about sleep, I think about [00:39:10] breathing. So what I mean by that is that an A DHD brain in many ways, it's not just [00:39:15] distracted, it's um. It's tired and it is trying [00:39:20] to keep itself awake through hyperactivity, through [00:39:25] hyperfocus on the things that are very rewarding, um, through all kinds of stimming activities.
[00:39:29] Dr. Ellen Vora: Right? So [00:39:30] it's a tired brain and the reason it's tired is sometimes because of sleep disorder breathing. [00:39:35] So if a child has a DHD and they are breathing through their mouth while they [00:39:40] sleep to me, we don't proceed until we have addressed that [00:39:45] breathing. Oh,
[00:39:45] Dr. Taz: wow.
[00:39:45] Dr. Ellen Vora: Because that's a, that's an exhausted brain 'cause it's never getting [00:39:50] proper oxygenation overnight and deep sleep.
[00:39:53] Dr. Ellen Vora: And so all of those A DHD [00:39:55] behaviors during the day are in many ways just the tired brain, uh, compensating [00:40:00] and, um, you wanna get someone breathing through the nose, getting deep restorative sleep [00:40:05] every night. And then we'll talk about the behaviors during the day, but often that can [00:40:10] transform how someone shows up during the day.
[00:40:12] Dr. Ellen Vora: Inflammation. Nourishment, [00:40:15] certain micronutrients, zinc,
[00:40:16] Dr. Taz: really
[00:40:16] Dr. Ellen Vora: building that
[00:40:17] Dr. Taz: foundation
[00:40:18] Dr. Ellen Vora: first. It all matters. And we [00:40:20] live in this moment where, um, kids navigate a [00:40:25] minefield of, uh, food dies and preservatives. Mm-hmm. And even though that has become [00:40:30] political,
[00:40:30] Dr. Taz: I know.
[00:40:32] Dr. Ellen Vora: A very famous doctor called it moving deck [00:40:35] chairs around on the Titanic.
[00:40:36] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:40:36] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. But I think I like that actually. Well, yes I do [00:40:40] too, but it's, um, but I think it does matter and, um, is [00:40:45] it our single most important public health issue? No.
[00:40:47] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:40:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: But, um, right [00:40:50] now, even like, I'm a very proactive health conscious parent and [00:40:55] does my daughter go a week without consuming red 40?
[00:40:58] Dr. Ellen Vora: Probably not. No. Yeah, because [00:41:00] it's just in the waters we swim in. Right. And it's so hard to avoid. [00:41:05] And those we do have data. Um, the medical literature supports the fact that they can create [00:41:10] hyperactivity and inattentive symptoms in children, um, preservatives as well. So the [00:41:15] food matters. So if someone is chugging a blue drink and consuming red 40 [00:41:20] candy and breathing through their mouth at night, we wanna address that before, before we start [00:41:25] the medication that has pros and cons.
[00:41:28] Dr. Ellen Vora: I like the things that only have [00:41:30] pros. Addressing those things, for the most part, can only benefit, has side benefits rather than side effects. [00:41:35]
[00:41:35] Dr. Taz: Okay. I wanna ask one more question about pharmaceuticals, and I promise we'll move on. Do you believe at all, I've actually [00:41:40] given this some thought. I don't know that I've actually.
[00:41:42] Dr. Taz: Practice it, but you know, how we're [00:41:45] microdosing GLP ones and microdosing different things. Is there an opportunity to microdose [00:41:50] pharmaceuticals, so micro doses, for example, of an [00:41:55] SSRI or micro doses of an A DHD medication rather than these larger [00:42:00] doses, you know?
[00:42:00] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:42:01] Dr. Taz: Could that be a place where there's intersection of these worlds?
[00:42:04] Dr. Ellen Vora: I think that's [00:42:05] so interesting. Um, I would say for a lot of these things, a microdose would be better than a [00:42:10] microdose. I do think a lot of these medications are, dosing is based on like [00:42:15] adult male physiology. It's probably wildly inappropriate for a cycling female body for a [00:42:20] child's body. We already, we kind of had that oopsie that happened with Ambien where mm-hmm.
[00:42:24] Dr. Ellen Vora: [00:42:25] Women were taking the regular dose, but then having more traffic accident fatal, or traffic [00:42:30] accidents and fatalities from that. And it turns out that's an inappropriate dose for female physiology, right? There's [00:42:35] the fact that in the seventies, eighties, even the boom of the nineties where we're developing all these drugs, [00:42:40] women weren't included in the studies, right?
[00:42:42] Dr. Ellen Vora: Because it was. Believed that [00:42:45] our physiology is too complicated and that might muddy the research and, and influence the [00:42:50] effect of a medication. And the interesting thing is it turns out it does. But [00:42:55] that's a nice thing to know. But that's what
[00:42:56] Dr. Taz: we need to know
[00:42:56] Dr. Ellen Vora: before we release a medication into the world where half the [00:43:00] population does in fact have this complicated physiology.
[00:43:03] Dr. Ellen Vora: So, um, microdosing, [00:43:05] pharmaceuticals, I'm open to it. Yeah. I think that
[00:43:07] Dr. Taz: I play with it some.
[00:43:08] Dr. Ellen Vora: Um, I think [00:43:10] that it's, uh, I think my training is speaking up and saying like, that wouldn't be a [00:43:15] therapeutic dose. So would it even be effective? Are you getting the downsides without the upsides? And I don't [00:43:20] know, but it's worth some
[00:43:21] Dr. Taz: exploration, potentially like
[00:43:23] Dr. Ellen Vora: some brave patients.
[00:43:24] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:43:24] Dr. Taz: [00:43:25] Um, 'cause we have in practice we've microdosed for example, Metformin or Microdosed, uh, [00:43:30] oral minoxidil for women with hair loss, you know? Yeah. Or Microdosed, HRTI mean [00:43:35] some, you know, as I was talking to you, I was like, I wonder if there's an opportunity there. So while somebody's working [00:43:40] on the lifestyle pieces and some of these environmental pieces.
[00:43:43] Dr. Taz: Is this the way to [00:43:45] support so it's easier to take it away? It's a really good idea. So we have less of that withdrawal effect. Just curious, [00:43:50] but you brought something up that has struck me, so I've gotta share Just a fun story. I love [00:43:55] documentaries. I love period pieces. So guilty pleasure when I'm by myself is, I [00:44:00] watched The Victoria, I don't know if you've seen that documentary on, on Queen Victoria.
[00:44:03] Dr. Taz: It's not really a documentary, it's [00:44:05] actually a show. But there is a scene in that show where, [00:44:10] uh, she's in her power, she's reigning, you know, she was a, a very successful queen, you know. [00:44:15] However you feel about her reign, but her lady in waiting [00:44:20] was having an affair and her husband, because he [00:44:25] had more power in the court or whatever else, found out about it and called in [00:44:30] doctors to, who gave her a diagnosis of hysterical [00:44:35] uh uh, female hysteria and that she was hysterical and she [00:44:40] was taken and put in a mental asylum.
[00:44:42] Dr. Taz: Right? That was the [00:44:45] nature of the treatment of women's health in that timeframe. [00:44:50] I think Fast forward today. Today you just mentioned the fact that women didn't enter clinical trials, [00:44:55] I think until 1970 and we really didn't enter in large volumes even up [00:45:00] until more, more recently, right? People are still advocating for funding this idea of the [00:45:05] hysterical anxious female.
[00:45:07] Dr. Taz: What do you have to say to that? [00:45:10]
[00:45:10] Dr. Ellen Vora: Um, so. Let's put it this way. I mean, [00:45:15] that kind of, the way that was handled at that time.
[00:45:18] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:45:18] Dr. Ellen Vora: The [00:45:20] outrage. Right. And I feel about that.
[00:45:21] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:45:21] Dr. Ellen Vora: Um, 'cause that's, but
[00:45:22] Dr. Taz: it's not so different. That's a [00:45:25] fictionalized depiction. Not to call any anybody out, but [00:45:30] just think back to a very famous political family that did a frontal [00:45:35] lobotomy on one of their children and put them in a mental asylum.
[00:45:37] Dr. Taz: Right. Yeah. So a female, right? Yeah. [00:45:40] So this idea of you had to manage the woman [00:45:45] or the emotions of women were, were [00:45:50] a sign of weakness. Right. Or a sign of illness or sign of disease is something I [00:45:55] feel like we're still not coming out from under.
[00:45:57] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. So maybe three bullet points on [00:46:00] this one. Okay. How I think clearly.
[00:46:02] Dr. Ellen Vora: So I think that, um.[00:46:05]
[00:46:06] Dr. Ellen Vora: And like, just to acknowledge that the, the [00:46:10] patriarchal, abhorrent aspect of it all, where it's like, okay, this woman is not [00:46:15] like this sense of entitlement and ownership over her behavior and thinking, if she's not [00:46:20] doing what I want of her and staying loyal to this person, right. She's sick, then she's sick.
[00:46:24] Dr. Ellen Vora: Which, no. Right. [00:46:25] But, um, and there's that, um, is it Krisna Murthy, we often attribute this quote Tim, of [00:46:30] like, um, to be unwell in a sick society. Mm-hmm. Like this actually can be a [00:46:35] sign of like, you're having the appropriate reaction.
[00:46:36] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:46:37] Dr. Ellen Vora: And so I think women's [00:46:40] hysteria and outrage is often a very appropriate reaction to having a boot on our necks [00:46:45] and, and just bucking all of the ways that there is still systemic [00:46:50] sexism, misogyny, oppression, still very much constantly more so with [00:46:55] each intersecting layer of marginalization.
[00:46:56] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:57] Dr. Ellen Vora: And, um, and [00:47:00] so. I think we still don't tolerate women's anger. [00:47:05] Women still have plenty of conditioning around. You should be smiling. Right. You should be selflessly [00:47:10] sacrificing. Right. And, and I think that I'll, I'll kind of tip my [00:47:15] hat towards two aspects of this that I think a lot about. One, let me park it for a [00:47:20] second.
[00:47:20] Dr. Ellen Vora: I wanna talk about the luteal phase of the menstrual cycle. But I will say, I think there is a false [00:47:25] anxiety piece. This is so uncomfortable to talk about, but um, you know, like [00:47:30] some of the treatments for hysteria was a vibrator. Yeah. Was an orgasm. Yeah. And I think that it's a false [00:47:35] mood that I rarely talk about, but I do think that.
[00:47:38] Dr. Ellen Vora: Sexual [00:47:40] expression and satisfaction is actually does influence our mood.
[00:47:43] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:47:43] Dr. Ellen Vora: And, and our ability to [00:47:45] find our baseline and and to be centered. And I think we actually do need to acknowledge that, and [00:47:50] this is for men and women Right. And so
[00:47:51] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:47:52] Dr. Ellen Vora: The
[00:47:52] Dr. Taz: release of oxytocin. Right. Right.
[00:47:54] Dr. Ellen Vora: Which
[00:47:54] Dr. Taz: calms the [00:47:55] nervous
[00:47:55] Dr. Ellen Vora: system
[00:47:55] Dr. Taz: down.
[00:47:55] Dr. Taz: Right. You know,
[00:47:56] Dr. Ellen Vora: we shouldn't be lobotomizing anybody, and we shouldn't be locking [00:48:00] them away, but we probably do need a cultural conversation around, like, we don't get to suppress [00:48:05] our creative urges, we don't get to suppress our sexual urges. Like this needs to be [00:48:10] suppressed, or it starts to create stagnation and imbalance.
[00:48:13] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:48:13] Dr. Ellen Vora: The luteal phase, [00:48:15] um, is, you know, the second half of the menstrual cycle and it's [00:48:20] towards the end when we are what we call PMSing. Right. And, um, that has a lot of [00:48:25] cultural baggage. Mm-hmm. We have been taught to think of ourselves as irritable, irrational, [00:48:30] bitchy, even. Yep. And. And I think that we can get [00:48:35] a, a exaggerated luteal phase.
[00:48:36] Dr. Ellen Vora: I think we can have a lot of imbalance in those times. It's, [00:48:40] that can be a check engine light of how do we help balance this physiology So it's not so [00:48:45] extreme. But I also think that we're taught that that's the time we're irrational and mm-hmm. I actually think [00:48:50] that's the time that we take off the rows tinted glasses and we're seeing a little more clearly.[00:48:55]
[00:48:55] Dr. Ellen Vora: I think it's a time when we have less tolerance for bs. I think it's a time when an [00:49:00] injustice that kind of fell off of our, like we're like Teflon to it in our [00:49:05] follicular phase. Suddenly we're like, no, that's not okay.
[00:49:07] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:49:08] Dr. Ellen Vora: So I think that we meet at [00:49:10] least a reclamation of what feels important to us in our luteal phase, rather [00:49:15] than us dismissing that as irrational as a
[00:49:17] Dr. Taz: problem.
[00:49:18] Dr. Ellen Vora: I think we need to start to see, like, this is [00:49:20] when I'm. I have a truth serum and I'm seeing this and this is not okay. Mm. [00:49:25] And it's really the follicular phase when hormonally we're docile and [00:49:30] flirty and play well in the sandbox. Like that's actually when we have a distorted view of reality. [00:49:35] And it's the luteal phase when we are seeing all of the inconvenient truths.
[00:49:38] Dr. Taz: Well, it's kind of like women that go [00:49:40] into menopause, right? They no longer have tolerance and like [00:49:45] bandwidth for what they used to put up with. 'cause they're no longer in this sort of like, oh, I need to procreate. [00:49:50] Oh, I need to domesticate because like my estrogen's on the rise. Right? [00:49:55] They're not doing that anymore.
[00:49:56] Dr. Taz: So it's probably why, you know, what is it the [00:50:00] stereotype of the bitchy, menopausal woman is out there.
[00:50:02] Dr. Ellen Vora: Mm-hmm.
[00:50:03] Dr. Taz: You know, when you think about women [00:50:05] and our intuition and our powers, you know, and then you [00:50:10] frame anxiety as this like macro issue, right? Of an open antenna that [00:50:15] we started talking about in the beginning.
[00:50:17] Dr. Taz: Are we just cut off? Like [00:50:20] what, what would you say about women and where women are headed? You [00:50:25] know, when it comes to hopefully a future matriarchy. [00:50:30]
[00:50:30] Dr. Ellen Vora: Hopefully
[00:50:30] Dr. Taz: I can be optimistic.
[00:50:32] Dr. Ellen Vora: You have to be. Yeah. I think that, um, and a [00:50:35] matriarchy won't look like a patriarchy with women at the top. You know it. Yeah.
[00:50:39] Dr. Ellen Vora: Because
[00:50:39] Dr. Taz: we don't [00:50:40] fundamentally function that way.
[00:50:41] Dr. Ellen Vora: It's not about power, it's, it's actually about Right. Um, taking [00:50:45] care.
[00:50:45] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:50:45] Dr. Ellen Vora: Of everyone who needs help. So we go from like
[00:50:49] Dr. Taz: the [00:50:50] hysterical female, right?
[00:50:51] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:50:52] Dr. Taz: To the physiologically imbalanced [00:50:55] female.
[00:50:55] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:50:55] Dr. Taz: Right. To the bitchy female.
[00:50:58] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:50:58] Dr. Taz: Who then we put the stamp [00:51:00] of anxiety on it.
[00:51:01] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:51:02] Dr. Taz: Where are we headed with women and their mental and emotional [00:51:05] health?
[00:51:06] Dr. Ellen Vora: I think that so many of us [00:51:10] women, we come out of the womb. We look around this world [00:51:15] and we understand the assignment, which is that what this world [00:51:20] values. Is a certain kind of very left hemispheric [00:51:25] rationality. Um, that's what we are taught to book, to believe [00:51:30] is intelligence.
[00:51:31] Dr. Ellen Vora: And, and I think what we do unconsciously [00:51:35] is we perform a certain side of ourselves that plays by those rules [00:51:40] that says, okay, I am, I like stem, I'm good at math, I am good at parallel [00:51:45] parking. I like, I'm, I'm not like the other girls. I am rational and chill [00:51:50] and not emotional. Not emotional. Yeah. Pm MS be damned.
[00:51:53] Dr. Ellen Vora: And, and it's [00:51:55] basically, um, we're doing that to get positive [00:52:00] reinforcement from the world around us. We're doing that in order to have the [00:52:05] career that's remunerative. We, we've totally bought in that [00:52:10] left hemispheric rational, these types of things that, that has more [00:52:15] value and. In the process, we [00:52:20] unconsciously suppress this whole other side of ourselves.
[00:52:23] Dr. Ellen Vora: The side that is [00:52:25] more the yin to the yang. Mm-hmm. It's the receptive moon energy, [00:52:30] non-doing it's the right hemisphere to the left hemisphere. It's the more [00:52:35] intuitive, holistic, seeing the big picture, [00:52:40] engaging and grappling with the ineffable, not just the easily answered,
[00:52:43] Dr. Taz: yeah.
[00:52:43] Dr. Ellen Vora: Straightforward [00:52:45] questions, but the gray area, being in the gray area where there isn't an easy answer to something.
[00:52:49] Dr. Ellen Vora: I think all [00:52:50] of these aspects of us, there are birthright. We have them, but a lot of us suppressed it. [00:52:55] I think that where we're headed in the future, what I'm trying to call in with my second [00:53:00] book, which is called Season of the Witch. Mm-hmm. Is that I love it is time for a homecoming to that. It's [00:53:05] time for a reckoning with the fact that, oh, like I want women to have an aha moment of, [00:53:10] huh, that resonates.
[00:53:11] Dr. Ellen Vora: And I didn't even realize I did that, but that sounds familiar. I think I did [00:53:15] suppress this intuitive witchy part of myself in order to survive. [00:53:20] And it is now safe to come out of the broom closet. It is [00:53:25] safe to. Claim this without apology, without a shame. [00:53:30] Without shame. To basically say I am intuitive. I do have a wide open antenna.[00:53:35]
[00:53:35] Dr. Ellen Vora: I am a little witchy. I do pick up on things. I sense things. I feel things. And [00:53:40] I'm no longer going to make self-deprecating jokes about my interest in astrology. Mm-hmm. I'm [00:53:45] no longer going to pretend that this isn't a part of myself in order to [00:53:50] say something sanitized and acceptable in the boardroom.
[00:53:54] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:53:54] Dr. Ellen Vora: That I'm gonna [00:53:55] start to own this part of myself and really let it be a compass as I [00:54:00] navigate the decisions in my life.
[00:54:01] Dr. Taz: Are all women witches?
[00:54:03] Dr. Ellen Vora: I think so, but I think [00:54:05] that, um, I think we're all at a different place on a spectrum of knowing that, [00:54:10] about ourselves and embracing that. And I think a lot of us are in conflict about this aspect of ourselves.
[00:54:14] Dr. Taz: Well, what do [00:54:15] we do? Those of us that we might be witches? Well, what do we do when we [00:54:20] live still in a very. Patriarchal world, [00:54:25] we, you and I are in a, what's the best word to say it? I don't wanna say bro, [00:54:30] science, but like science flexing world, right? Mm-hmm. Oh, well, if it's not in a, [00:54:35] a study, then it's not real.
[00:54:36] Dr. Taz: And you know, this experience that this particular [00:54:40] patient's having in an exam room is completely discounted.
[00:54:42] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:54:43] Dr. Taz: Even though it's replicated, God knows how [00:54:45] many times, right? Yes. But it's still not quote unquote real, you know? In fact, I had. [00:54:50] I share it on social and I'm fine sharing it again. I literally had a [00:54:55] neurologist yell at me because I was advocating for the patient and he's like, well, I don't [00:55:00] understand what you guys are doing.
[00:55:00] Dr. Taz: Like, what are you doing selling supplements? Like, you know, why do you do [00:55:05] it? What are you just a therapist? You know? Like just totally trashing the [00:55:10] field, trashing what we do. Right. And there's a lot of this like, you do this, therefore [00:55:15] it's not real and you're in it for some other reason. Oh, yeah. When it's like, [00:55:20] no, we are putting people forward on healing journeys and we're trying to take the [00:55:25] toolbox that we know that has been handed down over generations for thousands of [00:55:30] years from very gifted people and trying to help modernize it in [00:55:35] a way that is practical and realistic, but still within the, you know, rough framework of science.
[00:55:39] Dr. Ellen Vora: [00:55:40] Yeah.
[00:55:40] Dr. Taz: But I'm gonna ask you as a fellow physician and probably a fellow witch, [00:55:45] is science everything, the way we understand science today.
[00:55:49] Dr. Ellen Vora: So, [00:55:50] and I have this like snarky response to the neurologist of like, no, you're right. We should all just be [00:55:55] putting people on steroids. There you go. To utterly suppress their, their immune system.
[00:55:58] Dr. Ellen Vora: And, um, we know how that [00:56:00] story ends. And so I think that it's you. [00:56:05] The training that we have, and the moment we're in in the world is to [00:56:10] bow down and worship at the altar of science. Right. And to say, a [00:56:15] randomized clinical control trial, that is the ultimate arbiter of truth.
[00:56:19] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:56:19] Dr. Ellen Vora: [00:56:20] And I'm not gonna fully poo poo it.
[00:56:21] Dr. Ellen Vora: Like we love evidence. I, and we need some
[00:56:23] Dr. Taz: standards
[00:56:24] Dr. Ellen Vora: [00:56:25] absolute too because,
[00:56:25] Dr. Taz: so
[00:56:26] Dr. Ellen Vora: this was an improvement over a bunch of dudes sitting around and arguing by assertion and [00:56:30] saying, you know, I feel like it's this so let's, it's that right. Let's do bloodletting, whatever it is. Right? And [00:56:35] so, um, yes, the, the spirit of the scientific method, testing our [00:56:40] hypotheses, changing our management based on what the data shows us, the spirit of [00:56:45] that is so good.
[00:56:46] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:56:46] Dr. Ellen Vora: Putting aside the fact that it's been corrupted [00:56:50] systemically, right. With industry interest, putting that aside, right. That minor issue, [00:56:55] putting that aside, um, I don't think it can answer all questions that [00:57:00] matter to humanity. I also think that we are [00:57:05] too reliant on it. And, um, I am always going [00:57:10] to, I'm, I'm playing a long game with this 'cause I'm gonna keep trying to keep [00:57:15] buy-in because I understand the cultural moment we're right evidence-based.
[00:57:18] Dr. Ellen Vora: So like my book, which is [00:57:20] basically trying to say, um, like there's this [00:57:25] whole other way of, of bringing. Truth and information [00:57:30] forward. That's not just the scientific method. There are like 400 scientific citations in this book, [00:57:35] right? Mm-hmm. So I'm still gonna point to the data, but I'm also trying to help us [00:57:40] see that that is not our only measure of truth.
[00:57:43] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:57:43] Dr. Ellen Vora: It's not our only measure of [00:57:45] reality that is useful. And I think for women in particular, we've had the experience [00:57:50] of having our subjective anecdotal experience dismissed. I remember I went on birth control pill. Yeah. [00:57:55] And started crying every day and went into the prescriber and said, I, I, it's going well, [00:58:00] but I think I'm crying every day.
[00:58:01] Dr. Ellen Vora: And she said, well, there's no evidence for that. You know, fill in sweetie.
[00:58:04] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:58:04] Dr. Ellen Vora: [00:58:05] And, um, and now there is, now there is. Yeah. But I think we, we need [00:58:10] to not, um, suspend so much disbelief if something doesn't have [00:58:15] evidence. Like the absence of evidence is not evidence of evidence. It's not real,
[00:58:17] Dr. Taz: not right.
[00:58:18] Dr. Ellen Vora: And I think that not [00:58:20] everything that's real can be measured.
[00:58:22] Dr. Taz: I love that answer. But what, [00:58:25] let's go back to how we started. Anxiety in [00:58:30] your sort of macro description is somebody being more connected to the [00:58:35] environment and to their, you know, immediate surroundings and even [00:58:40] global surroundings tapped into that collective consciousness, so to speak. Right. [00:58:45] Having that big, wide open antenna, maybe having a few physiological things that could be [00:58:50] corrected simultaneously.
[00:58:53] Dr. Taz: And then we have women who already [00:58:55] have a big wide open antenna to begin with. And children, right. Children come in. Very [00:59:00] receptive for the most part.
[00:59:01] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[00:59:02] Dr. Taz: You know, what would you tell [00:59:05] women and children to do? As they navigate through [00:59:10] life and decisions in life and roadblocks and challenges and even good things in life, [00:59:15] you know, as they understand that they have this intuitive power, that [00:59:20] they're feeling things that are real, that they're very visceral, you know, and some are more so than the [00:59:25] other.
[00:59:25] Dr. Taz: Right. How do we, first of all, as parents, help navigate a child that might be [00:59:30] like that? Like my daughter, or as women? Kind of own that to a certain extent and [00:59:35] make it a superpower. Yeah. To use that word, rather than something that is seen as one of [00:59:40] our weaknesses.
[00:59:40] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yes. Rough draft. Like I don't have these talking [00:59:45] points ready, but like, let's navigate this.
[00:59:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. In real time together. Yeah. I [00:59:50] think that it, the reclamation, the empowerment of like someone saying, oh yeah, [00:59:55] actually I am intuitive. I'm even gonna call myself a witch. To claim that, I think [01:00:00] is part of how we relieve the suffering around this.
[01:00:02] Dr. Taz: I love that.
[01:00:03] Dr. Ellen Vora: Then
[01:00:04] Dr. Taz: I think that's like step [01:00:05] one.
[01:00:05] Dr. Ellen Vora: It's big because life is challenging.
[01:00:08] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:00:08] Dr. Ellen Vora: But the [01:00:10] suffering is usually created by our resistance to our circumstances.
[01:00:14] Dr. Taz: Yes. [01:00:15] And by our unwillingness to listen to that intuitive voice [01:00:20]
[01:00:20] Dr. Ellen Vora: and to flow with the way the current is directing us through our [01:00:25] lives. Hmm. So all of that resistance, like when we're not floating downstream. When we're not, [01:00:30] um.
[01:00:31] Dr. Ellen Vora: Shoring up all parts of ourselves and we're [01:00:35] fragmented. I think this is creating a lot of unnecessary suffering. So part of what we wanna do is claim it that [01:00:40] we're witches. Okay. Part of what we wanna do is with that new worldview, that this [01:00:45] is perhaps, uh, that human existence is vastly beyond our [01:00:50] comprehension.
[01:00:50] Dr. Ellen Vora: I even call that like a belief in magic. I say that. Mm-hmm. A little tongue in cheek. Mm-hmm. A little [01:00:55] like completely serious. Yeah. A belief in magic I think helps a lot because [01:01:00] then when circumstances arise that we don't want, that, we wouldn't have asked for that we don't like, [01:01:05] we have this whole different framing for making sense of it.
[01:01:08] Dr. Ellen Vora: We start to see how [01:01:10] things are sometimes in service of our growth, how there's sometimes divine timing and [01:01:15] guidance in things that we even. Don't like, but I find that I suffer the most when I [01:01:20] wanna rail against reality and say, no, I don't agree with this outcome. I [01:01:25] don't want this to go this way. And of course, that's natural.
[01:01:28] Dr. Ellen Vora: We feel that with any [01:01:30] loss, with any suffering, with pain. But the more I can start to see it [01:01:35] as this is how it's unfolding and can I [01:01:40] surrender into and trust this unfolding and can I even possibly make meaning [01:01:45] from the unfolding? I find that that helps a lot.
[01:01:47] Dr. Taz: Oh, I love that.
[01:01:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: And where this really. [01:01:50] Comes into play is with loss.
[01:01:54] Dr. Ellen Vora: And [01:01:55] that's a major part of what I write about in Season of the Witch, is that it was through [01:02:00] losing my mom and then later my dad that forced my hand around, what's your [01:02:05] worldview girl? Mm-hmm. Like you were raised in this kind of atheist, New York City altar, like [01:02:10] worship at the altar of science. Mm-hmm.
[01:02:11] Dr. Ellen Vora: Skepticism was a virtue, but then I got into yoga [01:02:15] and I had a kind of diluted spiritual worldview mm-hmm. Of like, eh, you know?
[01:02:18] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:02:18] Dr. Ellen Vora: But then it, it kind [01:02:20] of forced me to put my penny down and make a call and say, do [01:02:25] I believe that my mom is gone? That loss is absolute. [01:02:30] Or do I have an ongoing connection to her in some form?
[01:02:34] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [01:02:35]
[01:02:35] Dr. Ellen Vora: And I chose, or originally it was just a choice. It was a choice to say I wanna [01:02:40] have some ongoing connection to her. And over time. [01:02:45] What I've experienced is that it's not even a choice. It's a knowing. It's an embodied [01:02:50] experience of that, and that has enriched my life, and it has certainly [01:02:55] eased the pain of grief.
[01:02:56] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[01:02:56] Dr. Ellen Vora: But it has actually blown open my worldview where [01:03:00] things are in so much more technicolor and it gives my life more meaning and [01:03:05] purpose. It it, for me, it's been, [01:03:10] it has, it is been the hardest thing I've ever gone through, but it's actually [01:03:15] been, in certain ways, the most important change in how I understand what this human experience is.
[01:03:19] Dr. Taz: [01:03:20] Wow. So profound. I have to ask you this question selfishly, even after, after [01:03:25] that, like, we as mothers,
[01:03:26] Dr. Ellen Vora: yeah.
[01:03:28] Dr. Taz: I mean, it's one thing for us to accept [01:03:30] the fact that we're intuitive and it's a power and we need to claim it. [01:03:35] How do we manage our children? How do we manage those children that, that have that [01:03:40] how?
[01:03:40] Dr. Taz: How can we discern that this is a child that is built this way, [01:03:45] wired this way, maybe more so than the other one, and to prevent them [01:03:50] from a path of like needless suffering. Right? Yeah. What are [01:03:55] some of the screenings that, or teachings that we as mothers kid instill?
[01:03:59] Dr. Ellen Vora: Oh [01:04:00] man. I mean, parenthood is always so humbling and good at kicking in your [01:04:05] teeth when you think you've got, yeah, no
[01:04:06] Dr. Taz: kidding.
[01:04:06] Dr. Ellen Vora: Like I wish I could say it's the hardest thing ever normalized it. You know, [01:04:10] I've normalized witch is and belief in magic so much that my daughter has reacted by going the other [01:04:15] direction. Yeah, I'm sure.
[01:04:16] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:04:16] Dr. Ellen Vora: She's like, calls herself a physicist. Yeah. That's cool. I love that. Yeah. We love girls in [01:04:20] stem, right?
[01:04:20] Dr. Ellen Vora: We still do. Yep. Witch is in stem, but I think that, um. They're always just gonna [01:04:25] be on their own journey. And can we stay really flexible and nimble [01:04:30] and sort of sit beside them with it without too much weighing in? Um, [01:04:35] 'cause I, I think sometimes the way we can show up for someone is to normalize and, [01:04:40] and support, but it sometimes it's actually to, to like, kind of [01:04:45] like lock ourselves down a little bit.
[01:04:47] Dr. Ellen Vora: Say too much. Yeah. And let them take [01:04:50] their ride.
[01:04:50] Dr. Taz: Can we identify a wide open antenna kid?
[01:04:53] Dr. Ellen Vora: I think that, I mean [01:04:55] kids are so wide open, but Yeah. And I think it often looks like things that [01:05:00] we do a lot of correction around and shame around. I think kids that are suffering a lot, I [01:05:05] think kids that are very dysregulated.
[01:05:07] Dr. Ellen Vora: Um, I think kids that are having like bad [01:05:10] behaviors mm-hmm. I think those behaviors show us an an unmet need and I think that unmet need [01:05:15] has a lot to do with what comes with so much sensitivity. So I think a wide open antenna [01:05:20] gets a kid to be very prone to overstimulation and then it shows up as bad [01:05:25] behaviors and we correct the behavior and I think we're missing the root.
[01:05:27] Dr. Taz: The root cause.
[01:05:29] Dr. Ellen Vora: [01:05:30] Wow.
[01:05:30] Dr. Taz: Wow, wow, wow. This is incredible. I love this. So you have a book, the Anatomy [01:05:35] of Anxiety that's already out.
[01:05:36] Dr. Ellen Vora: Mm-hmm.
[01:05:37] Dr. Taz: Your next book is coming Season of the Witch. I can't wait [01:05:40] to bring you back on so we can get into that in a deeper way. Where can people [01:05:45] find you and connect with you?
[01:05:46] Dr. Ellen Vora: The best place is Instagram.
[01:05:47] Dr. Ellen Vora: I'm at Ellen Vra, md [01:05:50] and I pop on there every once in a while and just without [01:05:55] much editing, talk to camera about whatever is coming through in the field.
[01:05:58] Dr. Taz: I love that. And then my [01:06:00] final question is, what makes you whole?
[01:06:02] Dr. Ellen Vora: I love this question and I'm [01:06:05] rather than having like a really good answer, I'm gonna have the really honest answer.
[01:06:07] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[01:06:08] Dr. Taz: I want the honest answer.
[01:06:09] Dr. Ellen Vora: I'm [01:06:10] where I am right now in my spiritual journey, is what makes me whole [01:06:15] is to, to recognize that I, for decades suppressed a whole half of [01:06:20] myself. And the more I bring that part of me back home [01:06:25] and kind of say, tell me what, you know, even when I'm inclined to [01:06:30] feel a little shame or to wanna apologize for those parts of myself, it's, it's to shore up [01:06:35] those pieces and say like, this is all part of the organism.
[01:06:38] Dr. Ellen Vora: And so it's the right hemisphere [01:06:40] insights, it's the gray area. Ineffable, woowoo parts of me that when I [01:06:45] bring that back into the conversation, I have learned that that's what makes me [01:06:50] feel whole.
[01:06:51] Dr. Taz: So we could spend another hour talking about this, but I think you and I are on very [01:06:55] similar journeys. I think that all successful, like patriarchal [01:07:00] successful women today are on this similar journey that they have checked the [01:07:05] boxes in terms of education and credentialing and career success [01:07:10] and monetary success, and built businesses and done all this stuff, but [01:07:15] are coming to the realization at some point, whether it's shortly after school, mid-career, post [01:07:20] career, whenever, that if we do not embrace that side of [01:07:25] us, there is deep unhappiness and deep unrest and a big part of [01:07:30] being a woman is having.
[01:07:33] Dr. Taz: And I think a lot of us [01:07:35] needed the credentialing for self. Empowerment. Mm-hmm. Right. [01:07:40] So nobody could take advantage of us. Mm-hmm. At the end of the day. Right. That's a lot of what drove my mom to force us. She's like, I don't want [01:07:45] anyone to be in this position, you know? But while we now have [01:07:50] self-determination, we've also had some self-sacrifice.
[01:07:52] Dr. Taz: Yeah. And so I think the next way for women, I [01:07:55] hope, is that we can marry self-determination with self-fulfillment [01:08:00] in a way that's powerful and beautiful, and then can transmit that to our children so that [01:08:05] they know the model to follow. Have I done that? No. You know, [01:08:10] for my kids. Right. Will I do that in the future?
[01:08:12] Dr. Taz: Yes. You know? But I hope that's at least the [01:08:15] gift that you and I can give the generations that are under us. For sure. You know? That's right. So, but [01:08:20] anyhow.
[01:08:20] Dr. Ellen Vora: There's a Joseph Campbell quote came up in a book we read in a book club together. Yes,
[01:08:24] Dr. Taz: yes, [01:08:25] yes, yes.
[01:08:25] Dr. Ellen Vora: Maureen Murdock's Heroin's journey. Yep. But the, the Joseph Campbell quote is, [01:08:30] um, we've gotten to the top of the ladder and realized it was against the wrong wall.
[01:08:33] Dr. Taz: Right.
[01:08:34] Dr. Ellen Vora: So maybe [01:08:35] part of how we support our children is let them climb the ladder that they feel drawn to, [01:08:40] but when they realized that it was against the wrong wall, can say, okay, let's regroup, let's pivot, let's. [01:08:45] Scoot the ladder over here.
[01:08:46] Dr. Taz: Nimbleness and flexibility that you talk about.
[01:08:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah.
[01:08:49] Dr. Taz: Oh my [01:08:50] gosh, this has been amazing.
[01:08:51] Dr. Taz: Thank you for being here. Thank you. And joining me. I adore you [01:08:55] and love you as you know, and for everybody who wants to follow Ellen, follow along and her first book is [01:09:00] incredible. We've read through that one her. I can't wait for the next one, but we'll definitely be bringing [01:09:05] you back. So thank you all for watching and listening.
[01:09:07] Dr. Taz: Thank you, Ellen for being here today.
[01:09:09] Dr. Ellen Vora: My feeling is [01:09:10] mutual.
[01:09:10] Dr. Taz: Ah, and I'll see you guys next time before you go take a second to [01:09:15] reflect on what stood out for you today. Then if you can leave a quick review [01:09:20] wherever you're listening, it really helps other people discover Whole Plus and start their [01:09:25] own healing journey.
[01:09:26] Dr. Taz: And don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Dr. Taz md. I [01:09:30] love hearing how these episodes are supporting you.