Lion Counseling Podcast

🎙️ Episode 5 – Why You Struggle to Make Friends (And How to Fix It)

In this episode of The Lion Counseling Podcast, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist) and Zack Carter (Counselor & Coach for Men) tackle a silent epidemic many men face today: loneliness and the struggle to build lasting friendships.
If you've ever found yourself wondering why it's so hard to make friends as an adult—or why your relationships feel shallow or disconnected—this episode is for you. Using a practical and memorable acronym called the NICE Formula, Mark and Zack break down the core skills needed to create meaningful bonds in a world that often leaves men isolated.

🔍 What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
  • Why men struggle to form friendships in adulthood (and why it’s not your fault)
  • The impact of technology and modern culture on real human connection
  • The psychology behind why remembering someone’s name really matters
  • How to be more intentional in connecting with people in everyday life
  • The NICE Formula: A simple strategy to start, grow, and maintain friendships
  • Tips from How to Win Friends and Influence People that still work today
  • How to overcome social anxiety and become more confident in group settings
  • Why deep friendships are essential to mental health, success, and purpose
đź’¬ Mark and Zack share practical steps rooted in counseling, coaching, and real-life experience to help you build the kind of friendships that sharpen, support, and strengthen you.

About the Show:
The Lion Counseling Podcast is here to help men escape the cages that hold them back—whether emotional, relational, or spiritual—and become the lions they were created to be. Topics include mental health, masculinity, faith, relationships, purpose, and personal growth.
👉 Want to improve your relationships or get unstuck? Visit www.escapethecagenow.com to schedule counseling or life coaching with Mark or Zack.

📲 Make sure to subscribe, hit the bell, and give this video a like if you found it helpful.

💬 Drop a comment: What’s been your biggest challenge when it comes to making friends?

Click here to watch a video of this episode.’
#MensMentalHealth #MakingFriends #LonelinessInMen #FriendshipTips #ChristianMen #EmotionalHealth #SelfImprovementForMen #SocialSkills #HowToMakeFriends #PodcastForMen #LionCounseling #EscapeTheCage #HowToWinFriends #NICEFormula

Creators and Guests

Host
Mark Odland
Founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist
Host
Zack Carter
Zack Carter is a Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling LLC.

What is Lion Counseling Podcast?

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.

Mark Odland:

Welcome everyone to the Lion Counseling Podcast. I'm Mark Godland, founder of Lion Counseling and certified EMDR therapist, and this is Zach Carter, counselor and coach. Our mission is to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and their personal lives. And today we're talking about why you struggle to make friends and how to fix it. Alright.

Mark Odland:

Welcome back. If you're looking for help in your life, reach out to us at escape the cage now dot com or check out the link in the description box. Alright, Zach. Let's get it started. Why is making friends so hard?

Zack Carter:

Oh my gosh. You know, with all the technology we have nowadays and I think people go out of the home less and less, more people are working from home. Growing up, know, kids now on social media on different things, you know, instead of being in person oftentimes.

Zack Carter:

And so I think a lot of our skills to make friends, to keep friends are beginning to atrophy as a society. And so I think there are a few basic principles that if you as a person are trying to get better at this, super easy principles

Mark Odland:

Okay.

Zack Carter:

To like get better and better and better so that you're more likely to be able to connect with people, more likely to get people to like you. So years ago, I read a book, really famous book called How to Win Friends and Influence People. And it's it was one of those books that was really impactful in my life, really life changing, because I took the principles and I actually engaged in them. And so we're going to have an acronym today. We're going have a formula based on a lot of the principles in that book.

Zack Carter:

And I think if as a listener, if you engage in these principles, if you actually do these things, you're going to find that people tend to like are gonna tend to like hanging with you. They're gonna tend to wanna spend more time with you. So you ready for, point number one, Mark?

Mark Odland:

Bring it on. Let's have it.

Zack Carter:

Alright. Alright. So we're gonna call this the NICE formula. Okay? N. I. C. E.

Zack Carter:

What does the N stand for? The N stands for name. Okay? Seems super basic. What I find when I'm out and about, most people do not engage in this.

Zack Carter:

Right. Because I actually pay attention to this. I know it's something that I actually try to put effort in. Right? So people will say, Oh, you know, I'm bad with names, but I'm good with faces.

Zack Carter:

Look, that doesn't fly. Everyone's good with That's not anything, right? Please engage and actually try to remember the other person's name if you actually want to connect with the other person, right? So one of the things that Dale Carnegie said in his book, How to Win Friends and Influence People is that the sweetest word in any language is the sound of a person's own name. We love to have people use our name and people love to have their names used when you talk with them, right?

Zack Carter:

Yeah. So I have some practical suggestions, but Mark, before I get into that, do you have any thoughts? Do you have any comments on on that particular point?

Mark Odland:

Well, I I just appreciate you bringing that up, Zach, because it hits home because, you know, I moved my family up here to Northern Minnesota about four years ago, and it felt like we were starting from scratch. And so, you know, even thinking about making friends at church, you know, as you see these people that you you kind of are starting to get to know, and you're like, oh, do I remember their name? Do they remember my name? And if they do, you get that good feeling inside. Like, oh, man.

Mark Odland:

I feel like we're building a connection, like building an authentic friendship. There's something about like, if they remember my name, it seems like they actually care. Yeah. Mhmm.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. Absolutely. And I know that ultimately, know, basic basic basic basic is just remembering the other person's name.

Mark Odland:

Right.

Zack Carter:

But often we feel good when people remember names of others that are connected to us. I mean, you had that experience, Mark?

Mark Odland:

For sure. I mean, I find the same thing. Like, I mean, it's awkward if it's like, oh, they remember my name but not my wife. Or like Yeah. We're together as family, and, like, we've only known each other, you know, a month or two, and they're like, oh, how's Oliver and and Charlotte and and Brooke and and, you know, like and they can list a couple of the kids.

Mark Odland:

I mean, they get two or three out of my four, it's like, hey. Sweet. They're really trying here. But but if they, like, we've known each other a few months and they still, hey. How how are the kids doing?

Mark Odland:

Hey. Hey, you. It's like Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

Mark Odland:

Like, a little off.

Zack Carter:

Right? Absolutely. Absolutely, man. And so, you know, basic, basic, basic is remembering the other person's name that you're talking to, but extra credit, man. If you can remember the person's spouse, kids, the dogs, like, you're gonna be killing it.

Zack Carter:

Most people don't put in that kind of effort. So if you do that kind of thing, you're really gonna get people to be more likely to enjoy being around you, enjoy hanging with you. Right?

Mark Odland:

Yeah. Good point.

Zack Carter:

If you're the person that says, I'm bad with names, but good with faces. Like, what what are you supposed to do? What what what can you do to get better with names? Okay? So, first step, seems basic.

Zack Carter:

Actually, listen when the other person tells you their name, right? I know. Mind blowing.

Mark Odland:

Right.

Zack Carter:

But I think what often happens is we're like, Hi, my name is Zach. And then the brain just shuts off. We're like, Alright, I'm not listening to anything that they say from here on out. And I'm not saying we do it intentionally. But let's be honest, that happens.

Zack Carter:

Right? Yeah. And so step one, like, actually say, okay, I'm gonna pay attention to this person's name.

Mark Odland:

Yep. Okay.

Zack Carter:

Two, if you can find a way to connect that name to something else in your life, like, oh, you know, your name is Anthony. That's my dad's name. And you specifically remember that or, you know, I, oh, Amanda, I dated an Amanda previously. Like find a way to try to connect those names in some meaningful way. Number three, sometimes you can't find that.

Zack Carter:

And sometimes it's really hard to remember. And so, like, literally what I do is I have an I have a notepad in my phone. And so I'll talk to a person. I'll remember a couple details about them, remember their name. When we leave the conversation, I pull up my phone for a second and just type in, Hey, this was Justin.

Zack Carter:

He really enjoys sports and he was tall with black hair. Like, something like that just to, like, remember the basics so that when I see Justin again, I can remember that name. Anything you do, Mark, that, like, helps you in this particular area?

Mark Odland:

This is a little embarrassing, Zach. But K. Oftentimes, I will try to make an association. Yeah. I can't make a good one.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. I like the idea of

Mark Odland:

the notes in the phone. That seems much more efficient. But what I'll do is I will think of another word that rhymes with their name Yeah. And create an image out of it, and then imagine them next to that image. So like, say it's like Fred.

Mark Odland:

I'm like, no. Fred head. And then I imagine Fred's head, like, becoming enormous.

Zack Carter:

Okay. That's amazing.

Mark Odland:

It actually works. I mean, sometimes. Sometimes it works.

Zack Carter:

I believe it. That's that's amazing. I haven't heard that, and I really love that so much. So but, like, here's the point. You're actually, like, trying to remember the person's name.

Zack Carter:

And if you like, as a listener, if if you have to come up with a weird way to remember, that's fine. Like, just just put in the effort. Okay? So that's number one.

Mark Odland:

But just don't ever tell them what you did.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. You don't have to tell them. You I don't tell people I don't tell people I have a a name notebook. Right? Right.

Zack Carter:

Because that that might also be weird if they, like, saw how I described them. It's like like, sometimes sometimes you just don't want the other person to know how you describe them. Right? True. So like, you don't have to tell them.

Zack Carter:

You just, you just do it. Right? They don't care how you remember. They just want you to remember. Right?

Zack Carter:

So that's the end in the nice formula. Let's go to the I. Love it. Interested. I stands for interested.

Zack Carter:

Okay? Favorite topic. You wanna talk about what the other person wants to talk about, okay? I'm not into sports and I'm, man, I just like doze off when someone is just like listing me and talk to me about all the different sport. Like I wish I was interested.

Zack Carter:

I just, I just, I'm just typically not interested in sports. And so if a person comes to talk to me and that's all they want to talk about, they're losing me, right? Yep. Now, if I know they want to talk about it and I'm trying to connect with them, fine. Yeah.

Zack Carter:

I'll do my best even though I don't keep up with it. I'll do my best to talk about sports with them. But there's an ultimate topic. Mark, I'm gonna put you on the spot and this isn't fair to you, but I'm gonna put you on the I'm gonna ask you a question. Okay?

Zack Carter:

What do you think is everyone's favorite topic?

Mark Odland:

Wow. Themself?

Zack Carter:

Bingo. Yes. We didn't plan for this. I just put Mark on the spot. He figured it out.

Zack Carter:

Yes. A person's favorite topic is themselves. Yeah. So if you get really good at a few different questions that focuses on the other person where they get to talk about themselves, like they're gonna really enjoy talking to you. Right?

Zack Carter:

So, you know, where are you from?

Mark Odland:

Right.

Zack Carter:

Where'd you go to school? You didn't go to school? Cool.

Zack Carter:

So you started working. Where did you start working? Okay. That's what got you into that job. Right?

Zack Carter:

Getting really fluent in questions like having that as your second language is good questions. You could go online and find a ton of them, memorize a few and have those in your back pocket. Get really good at talking to get really good at asking questions to have the other person talk because they're gonna love it. Okay. Mark any thoughts on that?

Mark Odland:

Yeah. I mean, I remember reading a book a while back, and the author called it free attention giveaways. And just talking about how people are so starved of just basic human connection in their lives. Even well functioning, fairly put together people. Like, it's it's just life can be very isolating.

Mark Odland:

And for someone to give away free attention and genuinely care, like, it's just light something up inside for most people. And it it leaves an impression for sure.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. That's I I love that. Giving away free attention. That's so good. Quick quick story on this particular

Mark Odland:

Yeah. Let's hear it.

Zack Carter:

Idea. So I remember, you know, years ago, I decided I wanted to connect with a worship pastor at the church I was going to. And so he and I went and did lunch. Let me tell you, we did, we sat and did lunch for like an hour, hour and a half.

Mark Odland:

Yep.

Zack Carter:

That dude did not ask me one question about me. Not a single question about me, but I'm really good at questions and asking people questions and talking about them. I'm really good. So we talked for an hour and a half. Conversation never lagged.

Zack Carter:

He we we ended the we ended the meal, you know, and a week or two later, the head pastor comes up to me and is like, hey, dude. You know, I heard you and the worship pastor got together and, he he was raving about it. He said he just felt like you guys really connected and that, like, he really enjoyed spending time with you. I was like, oh, well, thanks. And so, like, even the, we didn't talk about me at all, he felt super connected to me.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. Right? Yeah.

Zack Carter:

Now on the reverse, you know, if if you're listening to this, one of one of the ways that I gauge if I wanna be, like, a close friend with someone is do they ask me about me? So some people say like, well, can't that get off the rails if you just talk about the other person?

Zack Carter:

Yeah, pay attention to that. Right. And if the other person doesn't ask you any questions about you, that's a good sign that might not be a good person to connect with. Right? So any any last thoughts on that that point, Mark?

Mark Odland:

I think that's well put. I think and, know, one back to back to my family experience moving to a new town after kinda kinda starting over again is what we we discovered is there we'd make kind of spontaneous connections with different people or couples, families, and we could feel that they genuinely liked us, but we also knew that their lives were already pretty full. They were at a similar stage of life. They had lots of activities with their kids, and they already had established circles of friendships. And so, you know, Rachel and I talked about that.

Mark Odland:

We're like, you know, I think we might have to be better listeners than normal even. Ask better questions than normal to try to get a foot in to to some of those relationships or friendship circles. And then kind of once, you know, we're kinda more established, then, hopefully, a a true friendship will start to level out. Right? And there'll be more of a give and take.

Mark Odland:

But we just kind of accepted that on the front side, okay. It's kinda on us. Like, we're the ones who were wanting to make new friends, so we kinda have to step it up a little bit. And I think the ones that are meant to last, you feel that give and take. And the ones that feel lopsided and, like, I'm always the one asking questions, I'm they're never talking about you know, asking me about my life.

Mark Odland:

Those will naturally fizzle fizzle out, I think.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. That's so good. That's so good. Okay. So we've gone through the I.

Zack Carter:

So that's names. I is gonna be interested. Right? You're being interested in the other person. C is gonna be compliments.

Zack Carter:

Okay? So this one's trickier, but I think if you can get good at honest compliments, you're going to have people enjoying talking with you, okay? So now, where it could get a little weird is especially with the opposite sex. Right? Whether you're single, whether you're married, you gotta really be careful with the compliments because it might be taken a long way.

Zack Carter:

Right? But in general, especially if you're trying to make friendships, like you're trying to, like, connect with other guys. Right?

Mark Odland:

Yep.

Zack Carter:

Finding some staple things that you can compliment the other person on could really be a good tool in your arsenal. Right? So you want it to always be genuine. So, but if you're like seeing a guy walk up and you happen to notice his shoes and you're like, Dude, those shoes are awesome, man. Where did you get those?

Zack Carter:

Like that person feels like a million bucks in that moment, right? They're like, Oh, dang. One, he's asking my advice on clothing. Right? Two, he likes what I'm wearing.

Zack Carter:

Right? If you're like, dude, man, you're so funny. You're hilarious, dude. Like that feels good you have someone that says that kind of thing about you. Right?

Zack Carter:

So there's a few things that if you're really smart and strategic about complimenting on, you make the other person feel good and they're gonna tend to like you more. Right? Any thoughts on that, Mark?

Mark Odland:

I think, yeah. I think that's totally right. And I think, especially as guys, we're not always great at that.

Mark Odland:

Mhmm. And, and we don't wanna sound weird when we do it, but it's kinda like it's a breath of fresh air if we get a genuine compliment from another guy that we respect or that we like hanging out with. It's like and and sometimes it's a weird mix of, like, genuine compliments and, like, ripping on each other that seems like the opposite of a compliment, but really it is a compliment.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. 100 %.

Mark Odland:

But yeah. So I think that I think that makes sense. And I think, some people are so starved again, not just starved for attention, but starved for compliments. And just the smallest smallest acknowledgment of something can can really boost some boost someone up. Right?

Mark Odland:

It's Yeah. I mean, you'd like to think we're all so secure in our identity that we don't need compliments, da da da da, but, you know, we're human. Mhmm. We're human, and we need we're we're we're trying to reflect something with the world, and if someone actually sees it and says that's that's I like that or that's good. Like Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. It seems like we're wired to to feel good when that happens.

Zack Carter:

Oh, yeah. And I I think as humans, we tend to be the most brutal on ourselves. Yeah. And so it almost comes as a surprise if someone someone's like, hey. You're doing a good job at this.

Zack Carter:

And you're like, wait. What? All I was doing was, like, telling myself how terrible I am at this, and you think I'm doing a good job. Right? And so, you know, well placed compliments can really have an impact.

Zack Carter:

So great, great points, Mark. Last one, E. We've gone through. And I see E is engage authentically. Right?

Zack Carter:

So one of the biggest things, it's funny that I have a family member who had also read this book and I was like raving about how to win friends and influence people. He's like, I didn't love it. It kind of felt like a way to manipulate people. And I can see where someone could take these principles and use it as a way for manipulation, right? However, if you're coming at these principles and you're saying like the point of this is to make the other person feel good, the point of this is to connect with others, the point of this is to love on others, then this isn't a form of manipulation, it's a form of enhancing, like improving this other person's life and setting you up to be able to connect with someone else.

Mark Odland:

Right

Zack Carter:

And so the main thing, you just need to be sincere. Right? So with the compliments, if you don't like the shoes, don't say you like the shoes. Like you don't need to lie.

Zack Carter:

There's no reason to lie. Just be on the lookout for honest things that you like about the person, right? Be on the lookout for good questions that you want to ask the other person and try to engage in remembering someone's name and using it. Right? And so when you engage authentically, think people oftentimes can tell if you're being fake or if you're being genuine.

Zack Carter:

And I've had people that have even been, like, we're talking about compliments, been very overly generous in compliments where it kind of felt like, oh, you just kind of do this. Like you just kind of do compliments. Yep. And it begins to kind of lose its potency, right? And so I think if you want to avoid that kind of thing, you want to be authentic.

Zack Carter:

You want to engage with peep people in a in a truthful way, in a sincere way. Any any thoughts on that that last point, Mark?

Mark Odland:

Yeah. I think that there's there is something about that, the the sincerity. I mean, I think our our radars are up for fakeness, for manipulation, for being controlled

Zack Carter:

Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

For having another agenda. And so, yeah, it's even a fine line between I I've heard people say you know, people will have scripts. Like, here's the exact sentences that you say. But I think the people who tend to be good good, you know, at at coaching others will say, well, this is a template. You gotta make it your own.

Mark Odland:

Right? You gotta you gotta make this authentic to you, or people can feel it. Right? People can feel if you're trying to sell them something. People can feel if you're trying to so I think I think that authenticity piece and that sincerity piece makes a ton of sense.

Mark Odland:

Right? And and and the potency, that was a that's a good that's a really good point too, Zach, because if you're just throwing throwing these compliments left and right and they kinda it feels insincere, it loses its power. You know? And it yeah. It doesn't come off the right way.

Mark Odland:

So but I like that. I think that authenticity kinda pull pulls it all together with with the other points that you made. So that's a it's a really good blueprint for people to to remember. I mean, if they're struggling with making those connections, with with building friendships, for a variety of reasons. You I mean, you can be you can be the man and still struggle making friendships.

Mark Odland:

There's a lot of factors out there that, so it's not about seeing something being wrong with you, but, like, life circumstance, the circles you're in, and and and also just and, yeah, let's be honest. Maybe we gotta brush up on some skills sometimes and improve improve that side of our lives so we can try something different. Mhmm.

Zack Carter:

That's perfect. Well, so in closing, if if you're listening to this and you're wanting to, you know, maybe you have some social anxiety, maybe you're nervous to engage with others, or maybe you're just trying to level up your your your connection to other people. Right? Pick one of the points that you know that you might be weak at. Right?

Zack Carter:

So if it's names, it's like, okay. You know, go out this week, meet three new three new people, listen to their name when they say their name. Maybe you did it three times in the conversation, once at the beginning, once in the middle, once at the end. Right? Do that three times a week.

Zack Carter:

Right? If if you're like, I'm pretty good with names, but I tend not to ask a lot of questions about other people. Okay, find three questions online that are good open ended questions to like dig into someone else's life and ask it. If it's compliments, okay, find three genuine compliments about someone, you know, and spread spread them out through the week. You don't need to do it with the same person but like, you know, find three people and and do a compliment.

Zack Carter:

So, like, you you can begin practicing these skills and just pay attention. Like, does it actually work or is this all is this all nonsense that we're telling you guys? I think you're gonna find that it's it people are actually gonna like when you do these things. Any last thoughts, Mark?

Mark Odland:

I love that, Zach. And I was I was just thinking too that although this is, like, specifically about friendships, for for those of you out there who happen to be married or have a significant other, that's, like, the primary friend that this stuff would tend to work well, I I would imagine, in that in that relationship as well. I mean, because sometimes we can take those relationships for granted, even the most important ones in our life. And so there's making new friends, and they're strengthening the ones we have too. And I I would imagine you could apply those principles that you've laid out so well today, Zach, for different levels of friendship, different kinds of relationships, and just building new ones, strengthening old ones.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. I'm I'm really excited, really hopeful even thinking about this this conversation because it's kinda got a spring in my step to kinda take a second look at my own friendships and be like, okay. Like, where am I at? Like, let's get the temperature on these relationships and figure out if there's a way that I can make them even better.

Zack Carter:

So good. Well, If you've enjoyed this video, be sure to click the subscribe button and notification bell to be notified of future videos. And if you're looking for help, remember you can reach out to us at escapethecagenow.com on the link in the description box below. We'd love to help you if if you need some help in your life.

Zack Carter:

So thanks for having this conversation, Mark. This was awesome.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. As always, Zach. Thanks so much. Take care, everybody.