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Welcome to Business Leader Breakthroughs where we help unlock the potential in you, your teams and your business. Hosted by Ryan Castle, along with Dr Mike Ashby, we share insights, experiences and stories on achieving breakthrough successes in business and life. In addition to a podcast, The Breakthrough also specialises in delivering management training that actually sticks, is cost effective, and easy to implement at scale to sustain change from the inside out.
Welcome to Business Leader Breakthroughs where we help unlock the potential in you, your teams, and your business. I'm your host Ryan Castle along with Doctor Mike Ashby. We'll share insights, experiences, and stories on achieving breakthrough success in business and life. To learn more, click the link in the episode show notes or go to the breakthrough.com. Now let the breakthroughs begin.
Ryan:Mike, on the podcast today, I think we should talk about talent.
Mike:Let's talk about talent.
Ryan:Yeah. Have you attracted any good talent recently?
Mike:It's an interesting thing talent, isn't it? Because at one level of course, the bigger picture, it's the thing that is always in short supply, but in the market these days, the competition for talent has never been so extreme. Never been so extreme. People are so busy and yes, there are supply chain issues, but oh boy, you know, finding, keeping, growing people with talent. And it's become a real differentiator in your kind of, you know, your value proposition as an employer is what do you do with people's talent?
Ryan:So often it's the how do you grow and develop those great people you've already got in your organization? Yeah. Bring them
Mike:up to
Ryan:the next level.
Mike:And it is so much cheaper and better in lots and lots of ways to grow your own. Although there's, you know, there's a there's an argument to say yes, but that infusion of external talent and energy can also. So it's not it's not a kind of laid down mizzie by any means. But one of the things that as a manager we've got to do is is develop the talent of our people. Enable our people.
Mike:Actually enabling our people to learn. And I think there's been, you know, you and I have talked about this quite a lot, is that there's a real revolution in professional development and in learning that's going on. It is very much about how people learn, not what they're taught. And we're at the we're at the front edge of that in terms of, our programs are designed to teach people to learn rather than teach people stuff. And the traditional workshop approach, the traditional approach to instructional design and training is all about teaching people stuff.
Mike:Mhmm. Or giving them messages or, you know, I was talking to a senior a senior person and their idea of the training was, oh, we'll work out the kind of have these workshops to do our strategy and then we'll work out the six key messages and then we'll hold workshops and basically drill them into people so that they can play.
Ryan:Road learning styles.
Mike:Yeah. It should work. Yeah. It should work. Mhmm.
Mike:Of course, in a fast changing world, people's ability to evolve, adapt, change, grow, switch, pivot, all that sort of stuff is much more important than the skills you give them to do yesterday's job.
Ryan:So where do you think the responsibility sits for developing people? Should it be with the person themselves? Should they be responsible for the development or should someone's manager? Because I guess we've seen situations where managers have gone, look, we're very supportive of you developing yourself. Mhmm.
Ryan:Go and find your course, go and find the thing you want to develop and give us the bill and we'll pay it and then we can say that we've ticked the developer box.
Mike:Yeah, that was my approach.
Ryan:How did that go?
Mike:Well, managed to save most of my training budget. So that worked. I think there's the level of the learner, there's the level of the manager, and there's the organization itself. And the organization actually has to embrace the idea that one of the things that people want out of being at work is to learn and grow. If you've got people who don't want to learn and grow, they are probably your past value.
Mike:This is interesting discussion I've been having with people about, you know, in your team, as you look at each individual, are they kind of future value? Are they current kind of capability being perfect for what they're doing and all we need? Or are they past value? And it can be it can be pretty brutal. Because if you've got somebody who is very skilled, but not able to learn anything new, they're actually past value.
Mike:Not not necessarily beyond their used by, but you're probably not going to invest in them. So there's definitely It's a three way thing, isn't it?
Ryan:Mhmm. And I would say the person who's turned themselves off to further they actually bring a terrible energy to the team as
Mike:well. Yeah.
Ryan:The rest of the team is trying to grow and grow and develop and someone's going, oh, don't need to learn anything new for whatever reason. Yep. You know, that's one of those Reid Hastings from Netflix, of Netflix who says, you know, never tolerate a brilliant jerk because the cost of teamwork is too high. I think that's one of those ones where that person might have the most knowledge of technical aspects of your company, but if they have gone, I don't need to learn develop, I don't need to grow
Mike:Mhmm.
Ryan:Then they're probably sitting in that brilliant jerk category.
Mike:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think there's there's you know, the more we think about learning, the more we the the more we realize it's just a core capability.
Mike:It's it's a fundamental capability of of everybody in the team. And those people who already know, they're not learners. They're not going to deliver any more value than what you've got right now. So they kinda sit in that category of current capability, kept maxed out, you know, fully utilized. And that's fine, but they're they're at risk.
Mike:They're exposed as well. Okay.
Ryan:So as a people leader in an organization, how do I encourage or how do I start the journey of people wanting to develop and then supporting them in that developing development journey?
Mike:I think there's a bunch of well, you gotta start with somebody who wants to learn. Because all learning involves a little bit of unlearning. And a lot of people are very attached to what they know. So you I think you have to be selective in the first instance. It goes to your point before, you know, if you've got five people in a group who wanna learn and you've got somebody who's entrenched and dismissive, then it can really kind of, you know, harsh the chill, really.
Mike:It can put a damper on it. And we know that, learning is found in a group. Huge amount of learning happens in a group. So I think in the first instance, you want to identify those people who do wanna climb a ladder because you can't you can't push someone up a ladder if they don't wanna climb. Then your job is to enable them to learn.
Mike:And that's about helping them effectively helping them learn to learn. And it starts with creating a learning mindset. So, and I think, you know, we can I can I can talk about some of this, but I know the work you're doing on a daily basis about enabling, key team members to learn? So I think there's a great reflection in there. And you say, you know, I think I think we have a, a view and a value around that Carol Dweck mindset stuff, which is these are skills that can be learned.
Mike:That is such a It just has a miraculous effect on people when they go, oh, can't do this. Don't worry. These are skills that can be learned.
Ryan:And I I would couple that one, I think another mantra of ours at the breakthrough is it's about progress not perfection.
Mike:Progress not perfection.
Ryan:Yeah. Those two are such enabling statements. Yeah. These are skills that can be learned and we're seeking progress not perfection.
Mike:Progress not perfection. And even and even process not results. You know, we'll invest in process, the right kind of process, because we know it'll get the results. Let's get that process working properly. Realizing that learning's going to be a struggle, that learning's hard work.
Mike:Because if people don't have to do the work of learning, they're not actually learning. All they're doing is, you know, they can kinda tick the box, yep, got that, yep, knew that. Job done. No change. No improvement.
Mike:No no no real value. So learning actually has to be a struggle where people go, how does this how does this work? How do I do this? Where does this piece of knowledge, fit with my other bits of knowledge? There's a wonderful book called Learn Better by a guy of old Booser, b o s e r.
Mike:Really interesting, very readable piece on on how people learn as in the Seth Godin stuff too, the revolution in in learning. So getting people to realize that learning's hard. It's it requires mental effort to learn something new. That kind of frames it for people. Making mistakes as part of it has to be.
Mike:Because if you're not making mistakes, you're not trying. And then as a manager, getting comfortable with talking to people about how they performed rather than what they achieved. So we're kind of built on, you know, what did you achieve, the successes you had, etcetera, etcetera. Let's let's talk about what what was really good about what you did to get that result. Because you don't learn from just achieving or failing, you learn from reviewing the process that sits behind those outcomes.
Ryan:And makes me think, Mike, your wife, Francesca, always had a, little technique of taking people along to meetings that were in her team, and after each meeting, what were the words she would use?
Mike:How do you think that went? What would we do differently? Really simple, but they knew it was coming. She did it every time, so there was just a that was part of creating a learning environment, was that you were gonna be asked to review what happened and there was gonna be discussion. Yeah.
Mike:It doesn't have to be hard, but you do have to be consistent.
Ryan:So I think when we talk about developing talent, people can often think about, I've got to identify this very one specific skill or a very future oriented outcome for an vigil. I think it's worth noting that developing talent is about helping that person be you know might be 1% better every day. Mhmm.
Mike:Yeah.
Ryan:Of course there are some situations where you might have identified emerging talent which you think are gonna be key future leaders in your business, so you might have a whole multi year plan around what development they they need.
Mike:Mhmm.
Ryan:But I think also with people in your team that you lead every day, actually just helping them develop continuously, almost like the continuous improvement plan Mhmm. Is also a good place to have to think about how to develop talent.
Mike:Yeah. I think there's a kind of a you know, sort of that the culture you create. And I guess the way you do it is, you know, with people is just, well, what did what did you learn from that? It it can be as simple as that, you know, what did you learn from that? Where how do you think that went?
Mike:What would we do different next time? What's the learning? What's the learning? That that creates the the culture, but I think there's a point at which you go, okay, now for this particular person, there's a certain level of skill that they're at, the beginner level perhaps or the intermediate. How do we take them to the next level so that they're engaged and, contributing for themselves and for the organization for both.
Mike:Because we know that well, I don't think it's just a personal thing. You know, most of us love to learn and and get engaged in learning something that's relevant and useful and enjoyable. You know, I'm working on a a technology at the moment trying to kind of master a technology for, recording backing tracks. Last weekend, it took me about, oh my god, three and a half hours to record this single track to the point where it worked. Weekend, the weekend just gone?
Mike:Two hours. Next weekend? Probably an hour and a half, but you know you know what I'm saying. So I and it's really engrossing and enjoyable. So that's the gig with with the talent retention and growth piece is giving people the opportunity to get engrossed, to get really enrolled.
Mike:Seth Godin talks about it being enrolled. And it's it's a better phrase than engaged. People actually have to kinda sign up and get into it.
Ryan:Commit?
Mike:Commit. Yeah. Yeah. And enrollment is commitment for sure.
Ryan:Okay. So we'd start off first by identifying what the skill is that we're looking to develop, whether that be a a micro level skill or a quite grunty macro level skill, but define it define it first. What comes after the defining?
Mike:I think it then it then becomes about how you, you know, what's the context for that for that skill, and what are the goals with that skill. What is it that you want them to be able to do comfortably with practice? And and then we use the example of, you know, somebody might be a good salesperson, but they may they may not be so strong on on closing. Okay. Well, you know, let's let's set a goal of x amount of sales closed by the end of the year.
Mike:You know, closing the sale actually is a struggle for this person. Give them tasks and and goals to to help them with different types of closes, you know. Learn the techniques, and then give them the opportunity to practice those techniques. So it's kind of, the work of the manager here is to be clear. It's a coaching kind of skill because it goes, what's the what's the deficiency that they need to work on?
Mike:What's the aspect of their, you know, whether it's their batting stance or their whatever it is. There's there's something in their technique which needs to be fixed. And that really is the first part of coaching before you kind of do all the mental motivation stuff. If somebody's got a bad technique and great motivation, then they're not likely to succeed. So in the first place, you've got to help
Ryan:them with their technique. And why the role of the coach is so important is it's very hard to observe that in yourself. Yes. You know, even with great self awareness, it's very hard to observe that in yourself. So it's why the greatest sports players of all times still get coaching.
Ryan:Yeah. You know, it's not because that person has better knowledge of the game or better understanding. It's just that that external observation is so powerful.
Mike:Yeah. Yeah. Even though they play at that kind of you know, the Gilbert and Oka top 1% and all that sort of stuff. Actually, there's still a whole lot of stuff which is just about technique and correcting technique even the most advanced.
Ryan:Okay. So we've identified the skill, we've looked at how we could break it down into some chunks that we could start tackling and do do improvements on. What happens now?
Mike:Well, I will ask you that because you're in the middle of training somebody in sales, right? From a from a fairly green sort of In fact, I think you said he was so green, he was practically a Martian. Yeah. So how do you train the Martian?
Ryan:Yeah. Take him to a tanning clinic and turn him from green to no. Look, it was very it's been very much an approach of going, what are the skills that can be learned? I've had great buy in from the team member that goes whilst I'm not an expert in any way shape or form about these skills, I'm prepared to learn and give it a go. So I had the right engagement from the beginning.
Ryan:And then it was about breaking it down into chunks and we've started with some quite simple task activity and once we felt like we've got a little bit of a mastery of that simple we've gone okay let's dole that up a notch let's let's make it a little more complex a little more challenging and we've done a lot of things like role play where we've gone, you're gonna be in a real life scenario around this shortly, but let's do it in a very safe environment where we can we refer to it as being in character. We're in character, we do the skill practice, we get out a character, we reflect on it, we say how could we change that, how could we improve it, we jump back in character, give it another another go and just like it's just getting better and better all the all the time. And and it's where those layers I think become really important. If you start by going, you've never you've never played tennis before, but you're gonna be in the US Open next week, you know, you're setting yourself up for pretty serious failure. If we dial it dial it back, reminds me of a great approach that a triathlon coach I worked with had.
Ryan:And I was My swimming skill was somewhat below average, I think would be fair. In fact, I think my first swimming coach said, there's one thing you're brilliant at Ryan and that's sinking. So I went to this triathlon coach and I had quite a long distance triathlon in mind that I was trying to compete. And and in my training schedule, very first day in the training schedule, it just had go to the pool. Right.
Ryan:So I actually rang him and said, I think you've stuffed up my training schedule, there's no links, there's no reps, there's no sets or anything, what's going on? He's like, all you have to do today is go to the pool. Tomorrow, you have to go to the pool and get in. The day after that, you need to get in and swim one length. So suddenly this went from a, I've got such a mind block about swimming you know 3.8 kilometers down to what's my achievable chunk.
Ryan:I'm just going to the pool, I'm just getting in, I'm just swimming one length, I'm just swimming two lengths. Suddenly it just found like a really easy journey to get through. Yeah. And you know, managed to get through the the training and you know execute, didn't drown. No.
Ryan:That's good. And then managed to get through the triathlon that I had targeted as as well but that approach of starting small layering the skill and the development over was really really valuable.
Mike:And and look, you know, the point really is that it's a struggle anyway. Right? And that was quite smart the way he was taking you through an unlearning and getting you out of that association stuff. When you're starting with a complete Martian, then you're, you know, you've got nothing to unlearn. It's all plant canvas, which is easier in some ways.
Mike:As a manager, you can't contract this out. You can't send I mean, you can certainly send people off to do the skills and all of that sort of stuff. But in the end, it's your job. You know? You're a talent manager.
Mike:You're a coach. Your job is to get the best at if you don't do that, if you're not actively helping people learn and develop and become better in their jobs, what the hell are you doing? You know, you're just gonna be you're you're an administrator. You're an organizer. You're making sure the work gets done and, you know, people are in the right place at the right time and they get their sick leave records up to date.
Mike:This is the magic of management. When you think about the best managers you've had, they will be people under whom and through whom you grew. And if you don't aspire to that, well, you don't have to worry about developing talent. But if you wanna be a good manager, if you wanna be a good leader, then putting the time in, and you and I have talked about this, you know, you've wanted to kind of take on some other stuff, and I've said, well, hang on, how long have you got the Martian in in train for? You know, how long is is he gonna be speaking you know, how long is he gonna before he can work more independently.
Mike:Mhmm. And and we've got, you know, we've got other people who are not at that level. And they still require, right right now as we sit here, there's another meeting going on with somebody who's an experienced hire. But we've gotta take them down to a little bit of the intermediate, because they're only an intermediate in some of the skills we want, you know, actually doing the training. You can't contract it out.
Mike:There's no magic wand.
Ryan:It's work. It's work. I was listening to another leadership podcast evidently there are some others other than ours. And the guest on that show had led some very high growth large people organizations and I really liked his definition of the job of the manager, the job of the leader and he said there are only two things you need to do. The first one is you need to deliver an aligned result.
Ryan:As in the goals of the organization Sure. Should be set and you need to understand very clearly what your role is in delivering those goals or outcomes, so you need to deliver that. And your second thing is you need to enable your people to be as successful as possible.
Mike:That's exactly right.
Ryan:And I was like, oh, that is, you know, it was a different set of language around the same things that we Yeah. But deliver the result and enable your people.
Mike:Enable your people to be as successful as possible. That's beautiful.
Ryan:And this is what we're talking about here, that's developing the talent. Yeah. You know, because those for those people to be as successful as they can be, they will have to be developed. They will have to grow, they will have to get uncomfortable, they have to take on new challenge. They will have to fail.
Mike:They will have to fail. And and they will so they'll have to do the hard work, and you'll have to do the hard work. And part of the hard work is taking the time and the and the patience to kind of help people watch people learn or guide people in their learn you know, in their learning, asking the questions, knowing the answers and still not giving them the answers. Actually getting them to engage rather than giving them the solution. And then the other part of it, which a lot of people struggle with, is the fear free feedback.
Mike:Is the when people have got it wrong or not quite right, it is providing fear free and honest feedback to people. Because that's what people need to improve. Because they won't get it right first time, and your feedback is going to be incredibly helpful in in steering them. So, you know, there's some there's some rules about that feedback. You you certainly do wanna make it, you wanna make it fast, like, don't labor the point.
Mike:You wanna make it frequent, you know, the small bits regularly. And you don't want to be I know, the fear free bit is not being afraid of how you're going to be perceived. Not being afraid that you might look bad to this person, or that you might upset them even. That doesn't mean you kind of just charge in with with all guns blazing. It means don't let that kind of fear of their reaction or yours stifle your commitment to fear free feedback.
Mike:It just means think about how you're gonna deliver it.
Ryan:And I think if you center your feedback around the skill that we're working on rather than the person. Totally. So bowling into the room and going, hey Johnny, you are doing a really rubbish job of
Mike:that. Yeah.
Ryan:Never gonna build great capability and someone if you can come and go, hey Johnny that skill that we've got I think we've we've got some more development to be done on that that skill. I see a bit of a gap in that skill Yeah. You know that kind of language will always help a lot more.
Mike:Yeah. People people take that branding stuff. I can still remember what my my father used to say to my brother. He said he said, oh, shows you're rough. And and and hey, look, you know, the way my brother approaches things they do tend to be, he could take more time.
Mike:He could we could we could turn that one around to, look, just slow down a little. Just let's not get ahead of ourselves. But you know, that's that's the kind of branding that people take away from your feedback. So being careful about it, but not soft.
Ryan:Correct. So absolutely direct, but talk about the gap in the skill, not the gap in the individual.
Mike:And the behavior not the person. Yep. You know. Correct. You did that roughly is a whole lot easier and more constructive than you're rough.
Mike:And and I guess the other one that we always talk about is the Buddha's Guide to Feedback, you know. Is it true? Is it necessary? Is it kind? In other words, is it well intentioned?
Ryan:Great guiding light. Excellent. Om. Should we just Om out of the end of this episode of the podcast? Look, great feedback.
Ryan:I think in summary, we would say be clear that your job as a leader and a manager is developing talent.
Mike:For sure.
Ryan:If you are sitting there going, Mike, Ryan, boy that sounds great, but I'm just so busy at the moment.
Mike:Rethink.
Ryan:Rethink. Come back to that. Yes, you have to deliver a line result. How will you get there? You will get there by enabling your people to be successful.
Mike:Yeah. Great. Great. Great summary. Yep.