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The HigherEdJobs Podcast is dedicated to helping higher education professionals find fulfillment in their careers and be the change agents that higher education needs in today's world. Join hosts Andrew Hibel and Kelly Cherwin, along with guest experts, as they examine job search strategies and break down the latest news and trends in higher education.
Andy Hibel 0:02
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs Podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.
Kelly Cherwin 0:08
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy. Today, we're lucky because we are joined by the entire editorial team. So I want to take a minute and let everyone introduce themselves here.
Monika Sziron 0:19
Hi, everyone. I'm Monika Sziron, assistant director of editorial strategy with higher ed jobs and HigherEdMilitary.
Andy Hibel 0:25
I'm Monika. Where are you speaking with us from?
Monika Sziron 0:28
I am in lovely Minnesota. It's 92 degrees here in Chicago today. A warm is it in Minnesota? Oh, man. You're going to make me look at the radar. It is a lovely, lovely temperature. 73 degrees.
Andy Hibel 0:43
Wish I was there.
Leah Jackson 0:44
Hi, everyone. I'm Leah Jackson, the assistant director of editorial strategy and staff writer at Higher Ed Jobs. Nice to join you.
Andy Hibel 0:52
Hi there. Same question for you. Where are you today?
Leah Jackson 0:55
In Pennsylvania. And I don't know what the temperature is right now. I'm really hot.
Mary Guiden 1:01
Hi, I'm Mary Guiden, associate director of editorial strategy and special projects at HigherEdJobs. And I am live from the Oak Park Office.
Andy Hibel 1:11
Hi, Mary. Mary is our newest member of the team. How's it been so far? It's not a loaded question at all, is it?
Mary Guiden 1:21
It's been great, but I can't believe it's only been two months. I feel like have been at least six months with everything that I've been learning.
Andy Hibel 1:28
And where did you move from prior to coming to the Midwest?
Mary Guiden 1:34
I was living in Denver, Colorado.
Kelly Cherwin 1:36
And who is your favorite co-worker?
Andy Hibel 1:42
I would plead the fifth. I think that's a wise choice.
Mary Guiden 1:46
It would be a tie between Baxter and Olaf.
Andy Hibel 1:49
Nicely played nicely played. Baxter and Olaf are our dogs. Feel like we have to put a picture up of the two of them now so folks know what they look like. And no offense, but if they did actually work here in the studio with us, A, they would be everybody's favorite co-workers and be we would get nothing done.
Kelly Cherwin 2:08
Very true. Very true.
Andy Hibel 2:09
What are we talking about today, Kelly?
Kelly Cherwin 2:11
Today we are going to talk about navigating personal challenges while staying engaged at work. So we were inspired by this topic. After reading Eileen Hoenigman Meyer's article, How to be Emotionally Present at Work when you have real stuff going on at home. And I know for all of us on this call today, you know, it ranges from having infants and newborns to managing aging parents and teenagers and, you know, all the things in between. So I think that a lot of our audience probably can relate to this. So that's what we thought we'd have a discussion today about some of the things going on in our personal lives, but also obviously connecting that to Eileen's article. So I just want to mention a quote from Eileen's article that she said, We all go through hard times, whether it's managing an illness, supporting a sick family member, going through a divorce, aiding a struggling child or dealing with a job loss in the family. Weathering a crisis is an emotional and logistical undertaking. So we hope you will appreciate the discussion today. So let's get the conversation going and then obviously trying to end on some notes on how we can apply this in the workplace. Some tips from Eileen's article.
Andy Hibel 3:23
Actually, one of the things I'd consider if you're listening is the article should be listed wherever you clicked on the podcast. But if you're having a hard time finding it, the article went live on June 6th, 2024, and maybe taking a quick look at before listening to the podcast may make the podcast a little bit more fruitful of a time spent with us.
Mary Guiden 3:42
And the article hasn't been published for that long, but it was also featured this week in one of our newsletters, and there's a buzz about the topic. We've already received multiple comments from people just saying how helpful it was at this time in their life.
Andy Hibel 3:57
For folks who maybe have not read the article. Can we just try to start summarizing it? May that kind of a highlight by highlight and seeing if we can start our conversation that way?
Leah Jackson 4:08
So one of the tips that I thought was really helpful from Eileen's article was about leaning into your routine. Having just came back from maternity leave, this is something that was a really welcome change for me. Maternity leave. As people who have gone through that know that it can be very chaotic. There's a lot of changes in schedules and routine. So coming back to work was a welcome change for me. I think that leaning into your routine is a great tip for anyone who might be struggling with something on the personal front. But as she says towards the end of the article, something else that I think is really important is it's okay to take breaks. It's okay to not feel like you can do everything. I think there's something to be said for leaning into your routine if it works for you. But I think there is something to be said for leaning into your flexibility if you're able. I want to give an example of flexibility. This morning is a great example. I got the kids up and was getting them ready for daycare at the normal time. We were following our routine. But my youngest, who is three months old, hasn't been sleeping well as sitters, so she's a little low on sleep. She, of course, fell asleep on me while I was feeding her. And instead of pushing myself and being a slave to my routine, I leaned into my flexibility that I'm fortunate to have with work, and I let her sleep on me. I actually worked a little bit from my phone this morning for an hour. So I think while we may not all have that flexibility available to us, not feeling guilty about it, using it if you do have it, is another really great tip. If you're not able to stick with your routine, I don't think you should feel guilty about it.
Kelly Cherwin 5:51
Thanks, Leah. That's awesome. Actually. There's one other thing that I wanted to highlight from what you just said there about the the need to Sometimes we feel like we have to be perfect and we have to do it all. And we need to kind of sometimes let that go. I mean, I personally it is hard for me because I feel like I have to be the perfect mother. I have to be the perfect employee, I have to be the perfect everything. And it's just it can be exhausting. So leaning into being a little bit more open to not being perfect is a great thing to do. So thank you for sharing that and I hope you. I know they're not getting sleep, but you probably aren't getting sleep either, so I hope you can get some sleep soon. Thank you. I like what you said because I actually just reminded me of something that Andy said to me last year in regards to attending a conference with my oldest. And I think, Andy, you said that it's really hard to go to a conference with your kids because you feel like a bad parent and you feel like a bad employee all at the same time because you're trying to juggle both and I think I feel that a lot just every day working, not just for the conference. So I think cutting yourself a little bit of slack and leaning into what Eileen says at the end about it's okay to take breaks, you don't have to push yourself so hard. We tend to be our own worst critics. And so trying not to do that during this time is really important. Leah, you mentioned that the ending of the article and I highlighted something from that when she mentioned protecting yourself, she said, Recognize what you're managing, accept it and care for yourself accordingly. Give yourself the space, resources and support you need to get through this. Adapt your thinking. Allow yourself to be a person in pain. She also says some some years we just grow and thrive, while other years we just survive. But both shape our character. So, you know, just kind of like what piggybacking what you're saying, like just give yourself a little of grace and know that none of us can be perfect in every situation. And we just, you know, just have to do the best we can.
Andy Hibel 7:43
I actually think that really kind of transitions nicely to like the second major area that Eileen has that I really like is I think it's from a work life perspective, it really goes all around the 360 degrees of working and life and that's get clarity about what you need. One of the great sentences in this section says Having a sense of what you need before you bring any team members into your situation puts you in control. And I think that's really, really important and really goes to like speaking about expectations. Expectations can be the biggest enemy of anything you do and internal versus external expectations. Your own expectations of yourself in these situations may not be realistic. Have that conversation with yourself about what is it that I can do and what is just not sustainable. I can no longer, for example, be a member of the bowling team. Now that we we have our third child, that's probably a pretty good call If you're a dad and a bowler for the bowling league that you're in. And where did that come from? That came from a previous guest. Remember, we just had a professional bowler on the podcast, but that's going to be harder. But if you are a professional bowler and that's essential for your care, then prioritize that. That's a reasonable expectation. But then the external expectations, particularly from work, I'd actually like to approach it both as an employee and as a supervisor that it's wonderful and I've had all of you actually in some way or another say, I need this or I need that. And then it's so much easier because I then know what the expectation is. What is it that you want when you're able to clarify that to me as your supervisor, I am better able to address and give you what you need or be able to find a way to say, Hey, I might not be able to give you this, but would you be able to make that work? That is so, so important. And as the employee, I actually think it's better for all concerned if you're able to do that. So if you have a supervisor that you're wondering, well, God, well, they like it. If I tell them what I need, I think you might be pleasantly surprised that a good supervisor is going to love that. You've just made their job so much easier and creating a sense of expectations and ones that everybody agrees to and shared goals. That's a pathway to success. It helps you to reinforce leaning into your routine and help you be able to do your routine as you need it to have done. If you have to pick up the kids at a certain time, tell that to your employer. If that's important to you and you're important to them, they're going to make that happen.
Mary Guiden 10:35
Andy, I really I really appreciated that section of the article as well. And in terms of my situation, I moved back to the Chicago area about a year and a half ago from Colorado. My dad is in now probably middle stages of dementia and likely has Alzheimer's. And I've become a caregiver for him, which has been a lot. And
11:00
hopefully I'm like get emotional here. But what I have really appreciated is the topic came up even during our interview and I just appreciated being able to share that. And hear back from you. I just remember you saying, if anything ever happens, don't worry about work. We're here for you. And that means a lot.
Kelly Cherwin 11:25
You want to take a break for a second.
Mary Guiden 11:26
It's okay.
Andy Hibel 11:27
We don't have we do not have any sort of Kleenex here. We do have coffee that has a sandpaper covering, if that helps. That's the only paper we have in here.
Mary Guiden 11:38
I didn't think I would cry immediately. So as.
Kelly Cherwin 11:41
Well. Mary, I do remember I remember Andy talking about that. And the good thing is, and this isn't supposed to be like a conversation, but like, how fantastic it is to work at higher jobs and how fantastic. Andy as a supervisor, but being authentic and actually welcoming that conversation and being true to those words is great. So back to what you know you were saying, Andy. Mary, what you're saying is like the whole importance of communicating and, you know, your supervisor can't read your mind and thank you for you know, having the courage to share that with everyone. So I don't know if that was or I didn't mean like the courage, but like, I know it was hard. It was it was emotional, too, to say that. And I wish I could give you a hug right now.
Mary Guiden 12:20
I think for me, I liked where Eileen also mentions deciding who you will share this information with. And when you know, Leah had been on maternity leave and I had sent an email to LeAnn Kelly a month or so ago saying, you know, we've got an interview today with a caregiver organization and I forgot Leah didn't know that my dad has dementia and that I'm helping out. And later on she said, I didn't want to ask. I saw that in the email and I wasn't sure what was happening. And and so I gave her the skinny on the situation and she shared that she had a relative who had early onset Alzheimer's and saw how difficult that was. So I appreciated her sharing that.
Andy Hibel 13:03
I think one of the things to connect all the dots here of what we're talking about is people have lives outside of work. And believe it or not, for most people, the lives they have outside of work are more important than the lives they have inside of work. And from an employer perspective, and I will say this about my two co-founders, John Ikenberry and Eric Blessner, we all three feel pretty strongly that we want to have an organization that recognizes that fact, and we try to do it in many different ways. But this way, this is one of the most important, and I think in a post-COVID world, more and more employers are seeing it that way and understanding it's even more important to people having just gone through what the world just went through. You need to acknowledge that. You need to see that. But don't take that as like work life is not important to people, giving them meaningful work and finding ways to keep them engaged and motivated and excited about the work they're doing through these stages is absolutely possible. This isn't, Oh my gosh, they're so preoccupied with their life outside of work that they're not going to get work done. I think you'll actually find that they'll I can speak for from the folks I've known who've gone through maternity leaves, having a little bit of a break to really throw yourself into work when you get that chance to do it is a welcome respite from some of the day to day routines that you're fully immersing yourself with. And speaking a little bit from my own experience. But I think I've seen other people go through that as well. That, hey, got a little nice to get into my work routine for a few minutes now and not have to be awake with the baby when I have the chance to do that.
Monika Sziron 14:48
Yeah. Andy I really like what you said about life outside of. Work. And that's kind of where my wheels were turning when this article came out. And I will say just as a caveat, I think of the team. I'm probably the one that you guys need to pull emotions out of me a little bit sometimes because I just naturally separate work and home. And so half the time you guys are like, What's Monika doing? You know, I'm just I'm probably in that protect yourself category of, of Eileen's article. But I wanted to mention thinking about the job seeker my husband right now is on two hiring committees actually for his institution. And this last week I have had a sinus infection like our kids have been home with us and in the middle of these interviews that he's doing with these job seekers, I'm the wife over there texting him like, oh, I'm sick and I don't feel good and all this stuff. And meanwhile he's, you know, taking job seekers around campus. And so I think that life outside of work element is so important, especially if you're a job seeker thinking about this person that's interviewing me has their own stuff going on, like his wife's probably texting and that the baby's upset and she has a sinus infection and she's crabby and, you know, keeping those things in mind as you're in this scenario is just another important element I found in this in that just being emotionally present. So that's just my little where I kind of went with that.
Kelly Cherwin 16:10
That was great. Monika.
Andy Hibel 16:11
Mary, how would you feel about talking about the support system and then talking about establishing a new support system for this new routine that you have? Because I think we've been pretty impressive about how you've been going about it. Like you have a dog with a torn hamstring.
Mary Guiden 16:28
At the dogs sitter.
Andy Hibel 16:29
A basset hound with a torn hamstring. You had a really good plan of having your dad watch Sam and you had to pivot on that pretty darn quickly. So do you want to talk about the support system and then talk about identifying the support system?
Mary Guiden 16:50
starting this new job back in the middle of March, I'm mostly working from home, but going up to a park once a week, once every other week, depending upon Kelly and Andy's schedules and what's on the roster. And I thought initially that given that I was going to be gone just one workday and we have a backyard that my dad would be able to let Sam out in the backyard. And he did that at least one time. But then some things came up where, you know, I had talked about these are the signs of this is how, you know, when a dog needs to go out and go potty, like they sit by one of the doors or they may scratch on one of the doors. And we talked about that and I wrote it down. And then when I got home one day, he just said, like I wasn't sure what was happening because Sam was sitting by the front door and then he went by the back door and I just said, Oh, dad, that means you need to go potty. So if you ever see him do that, you need to let him out into the backyard. And so it became clear to me after one or two of those times that I couldn't leave Sam, my dog home alone with him because I didn't want to have him hold it all day. And I just felt like, you know, I mean, he's he's very obedient. He does not have accidents in the house, so he probably could do it, but it just wasn't fair to him. And I started thinking about, you know, Andy, you mentioned the temperature today in Chicago is in the nineties. So have a couple of great sitters that I found through Rover. And so now Sam goes to daycare on Thursdays that I'm up in the office and that's been an adjustment for dad. You know I think initially he was asking me like, well, why can't he stay with me? And so I was trying to describe to him, you know, he gets to go to Rachel's house and Rachel's daughter, who's she's in grade school, but she loves Sam. And so was showing him all the photos of Sam with Kennedy, this little girl who just loves him. And and, of course, Sam loves it, too, getting attention from a couple of kids instead of, you know, I'm sure he's bored when I'm home working. And so he looks forward to Thursdays, too. And so that's been part of the transition with this new job.
Kelly Cherwin 18:51
Andy and Mary, you talked about, you know, having the need to pivot. I mean, we in life we have the best laid plans and they don't always go the way that we expect sometimes. And for those of you guys who are on this, the Zoom call, you just won't be surprised. But you know that I like plans. I have a hard time when things are unknown. No. Yes, I know, I know.
19:16
So there was a quote in the section under Create Your Narrative. And Eileen said a sense of control. Actually, it was from a professor that she interviewed Dr. Ibrahim Anthony, and the quote was a sense of control is perception. If you feel out of control, change your perception of what you can control and be in control of yourself. So I don't know how you guys feel, but like when I feel overwhelmed and I can't control everything, it's hard. Like, you know, anxiety sets in and I, I, you know, back to my original comment of like, I don't feel like I'm being a good mom and I don't feel like I'm getting everything done at work. But I guess my my advice is to pause and navigate what are the priorities? Just take a step back and one thing at a time. I try to take my own advice that I give to my kids. Control what you can control. You can control your emotions for the most part of how you react to something, you know, taking time to digest what you have to get done and looking at the things that you can control because there's things that are circulating around in our lives that we just obviously can't control. I can't control how many emails I'm going to get in a day and what fires might have to be put out or what. You know, things have to change last minute, but I can control how I approach that and the the attitude. So that was a good reminder to me.
Andy Hibel 20:35
It's kind of interesting right here. I just got a text talking about home life versus what happens at work. I just got a text from our contractor who's doing some renovations at the house needing to move a meeting. And my wife said I was recording a podcast today and would not be able to respond for some time. But I found it a little bit ironic that I got this text during this. So I responded back and said, While we're doing this podcast about having to be present at work when there's stuff going on at home, and my wife, who's clearly a lot smarter and emotionally intelligent than I am, responds back. What about doing a podcast called How to be emotionally Present and physically Present at Home? We have real stuff going on at work. Sometimes with that narrative. To me, the narrative becomes about, Well, how am I going to get this stuff work done? Like how, how am I going to do it? I don't feel like I'm able to be in two places at once. And to me when I get to that spot because you really don't have control when that feeling is going to hit you. I always think just identifying that feeling is the most important thing you can do. Just call it out. Oh, there you are, you little troublemaker. You're going to try to mess with me right now, aren't you? Know I spotted you. You're there. I acknowledge it. But you're not going to mess with what's going on here. And at least for me, that gives me a little bit of space to be able to de-escalate it long enough that I can get some perspective and move to the next moment. Because when I feel overwhelmed like that, I don't have control over it and I don't have control over anything at that point. I just have to kind of try to get myself out of the rabbit hole that I'm in.
Kelly Cherwin 22:22
I love the advice of identifying it. Mon, Leah, Mary, do you ever have any situations where you're like, you have to take a pause and identify what you're feeling? And. Well, I do. I agree.
Monika Sziron 22:33
I think within Eileen's piece too, when she said, you know, you might just have to shut down at some point in the day, or you might just have to if it's 2:00 and I've hit a wall. None of the work that. I'm going to be doing for the rest of day is going to be productive or it's going to be bad for my mental health, or it's going to. Not be productive. For me personally, then I will just say like, okay, that's 2:00. And you know what? Those emails can wait or that response can wait. This review of this article can wait. So I think I related to that a lot with the you know, you might just have to again, there's that protect yourself category that I think I fall into a lot is you know all right set that boundary and say, okay, tomorrow's a new day Today's today and we're going to get through it and just call it.
Mary Guiden 23:18
And I think shifting gears, too, or stepping away from work, Monika, like you described, that's been important for me as well. I've been better about going to the gym and since last fall I've been going to water aerobics classes because I have bad knees. And the classes, you know, they may sound cheesy, but they're actually a really good workout. And there's a class that I go to where it's all in deep water. So you kind of spend 45 minutes just doing different arm exercises and almost like riding a bike just up and down the lap lane for 45 minutes. And some of the classes, some of the women and men will be singing Whitney Houston songs and things like that. So it's it's a nice break to me. It makes me smile. I don't find that cheesy. I think it's fun. And, you know, maybe sometimes I'll sing along to.
Andy Hibel 24:08
Share, to share what that sounds like when you do.
Mike Walker 24:10
Maybe in a Journey song
Andy Hibel 24:11
haha
Mike Walker 24:12
Calling all higher ed professionals if you like What you're hearing on the Higher Ed Jobs podcast, Subscribe to Higher Ed Jobs Insider Update your weekly ticket to the latest opportunities, trends and insider tips in the world of higher education delivered directly to your inbox. Don't miss out on featured job postings, career advice, job search tips and more. Subscribe now and stay one step ahead in the ever evolving landscape of academia. Head to higher ed job icon slash insider to sign up your future self Will thank you once again that's higher ed jobs dot com slash insider.
Leah Jackson 24:50
Did we touch on that enough that like some of this stuff is a privilege like working from home, not everybody has that flexibility?
Kelly Cherwin 24:58
No we did not talk about that.
Leah Jackson 25:00
I feel like for me. Like. Yes, like working from home can be hard at times. But I also acknowledge that it really is a privilege that not everybody has and I feel like we have so much data from CUPA-HR, that says what employees want, like that flexibility that they want, they're not necessarily getting.
Andy Hibel 25:17
I think that that's that's a great, great, great, great point. And I think that's one of the key points here. As we talked about the beginning of the podcast, about folks who might not have the same work situation that we do, which is hybrid or of remote work. But for somebody who is physically required to be someplace and you're not getting that that respect that you need, putting those things outside of work, making sure they and prioritizing them in the in the routine is a wonderful, wonderful way to do it. And this is about protecting yourself. It's protecting who you are and what's important to you. Monika, you've mentioned a couple times, and as I think about this episode, I really think the protection is important here protecting yourself to be able to to get grounded enough, to be able to adjust whatever the situation is into your routine is where you need to get. And once you've gotten there, I think the wonderful part is if you're with an employer that you can make this work. It's wonderful to kind of hear you talk about that. Monika We've worked together for a very long time, but one of the places where I feel I've most disappointed somebody is your wedding. There's a whole there's a whole story behind Monika's wedding that Kelly and I were going to fly up to Minneapolis to go meet Monika's entire family and be able to celebrate with her at her wedding. And we were excited. And it was a lovely Saturday morning in Chicago. But there was what I thought was just a little bit of rain the night before. And if anybody has flown through O'Hare, O'Hare basically believes a little bit of rain is license to say massive winter blizzard, summer version, and somehow our flight got canceled and we were going to miss the wedding later that afternoon. So Kelly and I are like, we're going to make this happen. We're going to drive up 6 hours to Monika's wedding.
Monika Sziron 27:13
I can't believe that.
Andy Hibel 27:13
And we get about two and a half hours up there. And Kelly is looking I'm driving Kelly's looking at her phone saying, I'm not sure what's up with the weather. And Kelly and I both Kelly grew up in Wisconsin. I went to high school, middle school and high school in Wisconsin. We're both like, Hey, if you're from Wisconsin, you will know this. There's a rocky rococo us and we're both like, Yes, that is from our childhood. Let's stop at Rocky's and talk this through.
27:43
And we we really like we looked at it and we realized, like even driving because of the weather and to get around the weather, we weren't even going to make the wedding that way. And at the Rockies, we actually recorded a video and texted it. Monika saying we're so sorry and still feel awful. We didn't make it. But hearing you talk reminds me where as much as we might be guarded and as much as we have these good boundaries, there are very good boundaries for us to have to understand the professional and the personal. These are the people you're sharing a large part of your journey in life with. And if they treat you right and you treat them right, you really have the opportunity to not only get a great work experience, but also friends and travel partners on your life experience that are really meaningful. And the idea that I couldn't make a coworker's wedding, it wasn't about the coworker, it was Monika's wedding. And we saw the pictures still not quite the same. It looked like a very good time. But I think being able to share in those things with the people you work with and go through that journey with, that's kind of what makes work extra special to me.
Monika Sziron 28:58
Man. I remember. That and I was getting ready when I got the video is like getting my makeup. On for the wedding. And you guys sent me that video. And I think, I mean, to be honest, it would have been great if you were there, of course, But we did party a lot, so I don't know if you wanted to see that part, but I think, to be honest, would have been great if you were there. But the amount of effort that you put in to even try to get there after missing a flight than renting a car, than driving two and a half hours just to turn around and go back home. I think that almost meant more to me, if that makes any sense. So you guys are, are sweet and, great to be a part of this team, so
Kelly Cherwin 29:38
I'm going to make a joke of it, but I know you don't like to be called boss, but taking a road trip for 6 hours with your boss. If if that's like that, you're more my friend than my boss. So that that show is like, what type of relationship and what type of community we have here at our workplace, and I hope others can have that as well. So yeah, I'm sorry we missed it, but I did get a rocky rococo slice out of it and I got to dress up in a cute dress, but I didn't get to see you and your dress, but yet so. Well, thank you guys so much for having a conversation today.
Andy Hibel 30:11
We appreciate you listening to this podcast. It's a little bit more of a team podcast and a personal podcast that we normally do, but we thought the article was so worthy and the topic warranted a number of different perspectives than just Kelly and my perspective. If you have thoughts or you have comments about this podcast, please email us at podcast@higheredjobs.com or send us a direct message on X at @higheredcareers. Thank you for listening. We'll talk to you .