How to Find a Spouse: What Actually Matters in Love & Dating

🎙️ Episode 15 – How to Find a Spouse: What Actually Matters in Love & Dating

In this practical and insightful episode of The Lion Counseling Podcast, Mark Odland (Certified EMDR Therapist) and Zack Carter (Counselor & Coach) dive deep into what it really takes to find a lasting romantic relationship. Whether you're looking for a wife, evaluating someone you’re dating, or just feeling frustrated by the modern dating world, this episode is for you.

🔍 In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

What traits people think matter—but actually don’t (hint: looks and income aren’t everything)
Why your top three non-negotiables matter more than a long wishlist
The surprising science behind long-term relationship success
Red flags to avoid: narcissism, manipulation, lack of empathy, and emotional instability
How to recognize attachment styles and what they mean for your relationship
Why being with someone who’s willing to grow matters more than finding someone “perfect”
How your own unresolved issues may be affecting who you’re attracted to
A practical exercise to clarify what you really want in a spouse—and what to ignore
Why chemistry is not the same as compatibility
The mindset shift that helps men move from anxious or avoidant dating habits to confident connection
💥 This isn’t about playing games or chasing status—it’s about building a real foundation for a lifelong, meaningful relationship.

About the Show:
The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men break free, heal deep, and become the lions they were created to be. Hosted by Mark Odland and Zack Carter, we explore meaningful topics like masculinity, marriage, mental health, legacy, faith, trauma, and emotional resilience—with clarity, honesty, and a touch of humor.

Click here to watch a video of this episode.’
👉 Ready to level up your love life or heal from past relationships? Visit www.escapethecagenow.com to book a free consultation.

➡️ What are YOUR top 3 must-haves in a future spouse?

Creators and Guests

Host

Mark Odland

Founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist

Host

Zack Carter

Zack Carter is a Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling LLC.

What is Lion Counseling Podcast?

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.

Mark Odland: 00:00

Zach, I am, on the edge of my seat.

Zack Carter: 00:03

Oh, man. Wanted to

Mark Odland: 00:04

hear about, about how the single singles out there are gonna find their spouse and then invite you to the wedding.

Zack Carter: 00:12

Oh, perfect. Yeah. I love how you're introducing me as, like, the dating expert, and I'm like, if they knew anything about my my life before I got married around dating, they'd be like, yeah. You're not qualified. That's why I read books, so let's talk about that.

Zack Carter: 00:27

So Welcome everyone to the Lion Counseling Podcast. I'm Mark Oddland, founder of Lion Counseling and certified EMDR therapist. And I'm Zach. I'm a counselor and a coach.

Mark Odland: 00:44

And our mission is to help men to break free, to heal deep, and to become the lions they were created to be. Today, we're talking about how to find a spouse. Zach is our dating resident dating expert. No. I'm I'm kidding.

Mark Odland: 00:59

We we got some ideas for you. We got some ideas for you on how to find that that special someone, and that is not an easy task today. So make sure to hang on to the end. We we got some we got some tips and tricks. Obviously, no guarantees, but we're hoping that it's helpful for you guys.

Mark Odland: 01:13

And if you're looking for support, as always, check us out at escapethecagenow.com or look at the link in the description box. Zach, I am on the edge of my seat.

Zack Carter: 01:25

Oh, man.

Mark Odland: 01:25

I wanted to hear about about how the single singles out there are gonna find their spouse and then invite you to the wedding.

Zack Carter: 01:33

Oh, perfect. Yeah. I love how you're introducing me as, like, the dating expert. And I'm like, if they knew anything about my my life before I got married around dating, they'd be like, yeah. You're not qualified.

Zack Carter: 01:45

That's why I read books. So let's talk about that. So, know, lot of my clients were coming to me when I when I was talking to to Mark about doing this this subject today. I just kept having clients that were coming in asking me about dating. And I'm like, well, what does the science show?

Zack Carter: 02:02

What are general principles that are super helpful? Because I I think there's so much information out there and I really wanted to know like what is something people can grasp onto. And I read a few books and came across a guy named Tai Toshiro. And he wrote a book called The Science of Happily Ever After. And I just was like, this guy's a genius.

Zack Carter: 02:23

This guy's awesome. And so just to kinda get us started, Mark, he told this story or gave this example of, let's say you have a 100 men in a room and this woman walks in and all the men are attracted to her, so she gets to take her pick. If she says, I want the guy that I'm gonna be with to be six foot or above, suddenly you're gonna take 60 of those guys and you're gonna get rid of them. So you're left with 40 dudes. If she then says, I want the guy to be a Republican or a Democrat or Independent, whatever political party she's with Yep.

Zack Carter: 03:00

You're then going to take 30 more guys and get rid of those guys. So you're left with 10 men. If she then says, I want to be married to a doctor, you're either gonna eliminate all the rest of the men or only be left with one guy or, like, a percentage of a guy statistically. Right? Yeah.

Zack Carter: 03:20

And so the point that he was trying to make in the book was you can have as many wishes as you want, but you really get like a big top three. Right? And each person gets to choose their big top three. And then he makes his way through the book to kinda talk about what are the things to avoid, what are the things to pay attention for. Right?

Zack Carter: 03:42

Sure. So today, we're gonna talk about the science and what typically does not make a good long term partner or a good long term spouse And what does? There are some things that work really well in the short term in attraction and some things that work better in the long term. And so if you're listening right now and you want a committed partner, you want a person who's gonna be a spouse, a husband, a wife in the long term, what should you be looking for? And that's kinda what we're gonna dig into today.

Zack Carter: 04:10

Before I keep going, Mark, and talk about the traits that we want that that may not matter as much, what do you think? Do you have any thoughts?

Mark Odland: 04:21

Well, I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued by where you're going with this because I immediately hear when you gave that story. Right? People listening say, what are you saying, Zach? Are you saying that I should settle?

Mark Odland: 04:33

Are you saying that I should and that's an interesting question, isn't it? Because I think it's important to keep high standards Mhmm. But also to be realistic about what the field is. Right? What the I mean, there there are some people, as you know, who even talked about the economy, the the marketplace, right, when it comes to dating.

Mark Odland: 04:53

And there are some real ways that that women and men in their own ways can be a little delusional about what's out there. And and so, yeah, that's a whole another discussion, but I I just wanna keep hearing more, Zach. Yeah.

Zack Carter: 05:09

Let's dig in. Well, so what are the traits that people think matter that may not matter as much in the long term? So off, so what men based on the stats, what men look for, two things, one of them surprised me, the other didn't. thing is physical attractiveness, didn't surprise me. Men typically are looking for how hot can I get a person, you know, to be my romantic partner, right?

Zack Carter: 05:39

I want the hottest woman I can find, right? The thing was socioeconomic status, which actually surprised me. So apparently men statistically are looking for a certain amount of income from the person that they're gonna be with. And for women it's the reverse. they're looking for socioeconomic status, once again didn't surprise me.

Zack Carter: 06:00

And then secondarily is looks, right? So what the science shows in the long term is that physical attractiveness is helpful in dating, it's helpful in the couple years of marriage, and then its return on investment just drops off a cliff. Same with money. So money can be very attractive initially, but once you make around $80,000, anything that you go above that doesn't have any kind of return on investment in the relationship. Yeah.

Zack Carter: 06:35

You get nicer stuff, but it doesn't show any kind of correlation with more happiness in a marriage. Right? So these things that really work on the front end tend not to work in the medium to long term. So those are the traits that we think matter a lot that actually end up not mattering as much as we we believe them to. Any thoughts around that?

Mark Odland: 06:57

Yeah. No. I I I hear the voice of one of my old religion professors in my head, and and he say he said, you know why God gives us hormones. Right? And and are so into attraction at the beginning?

Mark Odland: 07:08

It's to trick us into getting married and having babies because God's God likes babies. God likes families. He he's like, oh, that's that's an interesting take. That's Yeah. Tricking us.

Mark Odland: 07:17

I'm not sure if I'd spin it quite that way, but Yeah. But I but it's interesting. I was actually a little surprised when you talked about guys wanting being interested in this in in the earning potential of their wives because I've also, heard a lot of guys say,

Zack Carter: 07:35

you know, at the end of

Mark Odland: 07:36

the day, don't really care how much she makes. Mhmm. I just want peaceful home. I just want a good mother for my children. And I wonder if over time those things start to the scale start to tip a little bit.

Mark Odland: 07:45

Maybe as guys get older, some of those values or or core values or priorities start to change. Mhmm. Probably both for guys and and gals. Right? Like, what's

Zack Carter: 07:53

most important? Yeah. It's funny you say that because I I was talking to a client recently about dating. And, you know, when I was single, looks was definitely in my top three for sure. Like, I wasn't immune to that.

Zack Carter: 08:07

What I am finding now is that looks are less important to me than my wife being a good mom. Like, that's a 100% of my top three. Right? And like past Zach didn't know what that experience would feel like. And so as we get into it, we're getting a little a little ahead, but as we get into it, we wanna look at what are the top three that will last me a lifetime.

Zack Carter: 08:30

Right? Because hotness is gonna be really great at the beginning, but what happens when you're 70 or 80? You're gonna be thinking less of hotness and more of like, is there peace in our home? Like you said, your clients are saying, like, is she a good grandmother? Has she been a good mom?

Zack Carter: 08:46

Like, are my kids not messed up? Is her mental health good? Right? Is she always criticizing me? So, like, there's all these kinds of things that once again I'm getting a little ahead of myself on.

Zack Carter: 08:55

But, yeah, I think you're right, Mark, that I think our top three can change over time. So looking at the totality is the way to go if you're looking for, you know, a spouse that you're gonna be with forever. So

Mark Odland: 09:07

Well yeah.

Zack Carter: 09:08

Go ahead. No. Go ahead. No. I was just gonna say, Zach, I mean, that that

Mark Odland: 09:11

just and maybe, again, this is you're gonna tackle this in a minute. But that idea of maybe some of the guys out there listening are like, can I really trust chemistry? Can I really trust chemistry? That initial attraction, is that enough to take the next step forward? Right?

Mark Odland: 09:28

And I I just think about one of Jordan Peterson's lectures where he's like, you don't really want the 10 out of 10. Like because if you get the 10 out of 10, that's not a relationship that's gonna last necessarily. Right? There's all sorts of reasons why. And and Jordan, he had this funny way of putting it.

Mark Odland: 09:45

He's like, it might be wiser if you chose him a sturdier woman with values. Right? I'm not sure what that Jordan. Like, are

Zack Carter: 09:52

you like, but I think at the end

Mark Odland: 09:55

of the day, right, we're hoping that we find someone we're attracted to Mhmm. And somebody shares our values and some but I I I don't wanna get ahead of too much. So let's let's go to the next thing, Zach.

Zack Carter: 10:05

Yeah. Well and, yeah, let's get into it. So let's start with what to avoid. We'll we'll get to what to look for typically. And once again, you listening out there, you're the one that's gonna be married to him.

Zack Carter: 10:18

So you get to pick what your top three is. And if you say all this is nonsense

Mark Odland: 10:21

Zach, Zach, I would rather go route of take Zach's advice and blame him if he doesn't.

Zack Carter: 10:28

Perfect. Perfect. That's not the counselor way. The counselor way is I'm gonna let you choose and then no responsibility on my end. So what should we typically want to avoid?

Zack Carter: 10:41

Well, there's new studies out talking about the dark triad traits. Okay, so this narcissism, Machiavellianism, hopefully I said that right, and psychopathy. So, what is narcissism? Well, signs of narcissism is grandiosity, having a big ego, lots of pride, lack of empathy, right? So you want to try to avoid a person that tends towards narcissism.

Zack Carter: 11:07

Machiavellianism, what is that? Well that's manipulation like a person who is manipulative, they have emotional detachment, right? They're not trying to connect with you emotionally and they put their self interest over the interest of others, right? Lastly, psychopathy is being impulsive, having antisocial behavior, a callousness, and a lack of remorse. So what you'll see if you look at all three of those things is there's a commonality of lack of empathy.

Zack Carter: 11:38

And I can't tell you how many guys that come to me that have problems in their relationship and oftentimes it's because the woman they're with has no empathy for them. She's always in the right, they're always in the wrong, right? And this can be reversed as well. So if you're listening to this and you're the person with the lack of empathy it's something you're gonna wanna work on so that your partner wants to stay with you, right? So those are the three big dark triad traits that we wanna completely avoid at all costs.

Zack Carter: 12:09

So the rule of thumb that is very famous is you go out to a date with this person, how do they treat the waiter? Right? When you're out in public with them, how do they treat people? Because give it some time, they may be nice to you now, but give it some time, chances are they act that way to you. Any any thoughts on that so far?

Mark Odland: 12:30

That's really interesting. I'm I don't know if this is implicit in what you're saying, Zach, but is it the reason we need is there is part of the reason we need to be aware of the the triad traits traits because in a in some way, they actually can be initially attractive, or is it more we just don't see them?

Zack Carter: 12:48

They can be initially attractive. Yeah. Okay. So there there there yeah. So there are traits like like, for instance, if a woman is attracted to a guy with lots of power.

Zack Carter: 13:01

Right. Right? So not always, but many men who seek power have these traits like I'm gonna win at all costs, I'm gonna be successful, right? And as far as like procreating and having kids and being able to take care of those kids, oh he's powerful, he's got a lot of money, that's very attractive. So we do need to watch out for these traits because there can be like there's something attractive about a little bit of danger, right?

Zack Carter: 13:26

There's also the rose colored glasses thing where literally I was just talking to a client recently who was dating a woman, he's like, yeah, she's a nine out of 10. But it was hard to break up with her man because she had some of these traits and he was blinded by her beauty. And it's like it was really hard. There was an ego thing there like, hey, walking into a room with this wind on my arm shows I'm somebody. And so we'll also ignore these traits.

Zack Carter: 13:52

So even if we're not attracted to it, we might also ignore them if there's some other benefits we're getting.

Mark Odland: 13:59

Sure.

Zack Carter: 13:59

So we don't want to ignore them because in the long term, it'll be highly destructive. Great question, Mark. Next.

Mark Odland: 14:06

Yeah.

Zack Carter: 14:07

Attachment styles. So we really wanna pay attention to attachment styles. If you haven't heard of this, you might wanna do a little bit of of research in attachment styles and maybe we'll do a a podcast on it at at some point. But essentially, there there are three main. I've also heard four mains, so we'll discuss four.

Zack Carter: 14:25

But, essentially, secure attachment, avoidant attachment, anxious attachment, and then some people are anxious avoidant, and so we'll get into this. So they're watching a a movie, the stereotypical jock who has the girls after them and they're like, oh, why won't you call me your girlfriend? And they're like, oh, baby, I'm just not trying to put labels on it. Like that dude, he's like avoiding closeness. Right?

Zack Carter: 14:49

He's avoiding the connection. Right? And so if a problem happens in the relationship, what does he do? He runs away, he's like, I don't want to deal with this. Why do we have to talk about this?

Zack Carter: 14:59

Let's sweep it under the rug, right? That tends to be avoidant. Next we have anxious, right? And so once again, stereotype. It's you're dating this girl and she texts you, five minutes later you haven't responded because you're at work and then she blows up your phone with 30 or 40 texts saying why aren't you talking to me?

Zack Carter: 15:17

And you're like because I'm in a business meeting, right? That is more of an anxious style, right? Clingy needs reassurance, that kind of thing. Now, I'm being overly exaggerative, if that's a word. I'm overly exaggerating this to kind of like make the point because we do need to have empathy for people in these situations because usually it stems from childhood.

Zack Carter: 15:41

Right? So abandonment issues, neglect, these kinds of things can cause these attachment styles. Yeah. And it can be the reverse. So it's not that women are always the anxious ones and dudes are always the avoidant.

Zack Carter: 15:54

I'm just listing stereotypes for the sake of the example. But it can be either one. So guys can be anxious women can be avoidant. It can it can go either way. Lastly, we have anxious avoidant which is kind of the push pull where at some points they're very clingy and other points they're like, I don't want anything to do do with you.

Zack Carter: 16:11

Right? I just wanna stay away from you. Right? So these are the kinds of things we need to be careful around. I'm not saying you can't date or get married to a person with this, but are they working on this thing?

Zack Carter: 16:24

Right? We do Well we do wanna be Yeah. Careful. Go ahead. No.

Zack Carter: 16:28

That you took the words out of

Mark Odland: 16:30

my mouth, Zach. I mean, I

Zack Carter: 16:30

think Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 16:31

That is the big thing that I've seen with doing premarital counseling, doing marriage counseling is that some of these things are overcomeable, but you can't be like, I'm gonna change this person. Mhmm. That doesn't that doesn't work, and often they don't. But if they're the kind of person who has a mindset of continuing to heal, continuing to grow, being open to facing hard things, that is so much more hopeful. Right?

Mark Odland: 16:58

Because then you're on this journey together where you do have the hard conversations. You do get counseling when you need it. You do go to the gym when you need to get back on track. Right? It's it's just a whole different mindset.

Mark Odland: 17:09

And and the other thing say is, like, for that, you know, jock analogy Yeah. It could be it could be an attachment style, or or it really could be a guy too who's just like, I just wanna keep my options open. And then on the flip side, the other person has to be like, okay. Do I wanna be with a guy or a gal who wants to keep their options open? And so it's this this it's kind of like everyone has their own standards, and you have to kinda know where your line in the sand is and what you're willing to tolerate and be really honest about it.

Zack Carter: 17:43

Yeah. Well said. Well said. So kinda shooting off what you're saying. So a couple side thoughts before we move into Yeah.

Zack Carter: 17:51

The traits that actually matter long term. Let me double down on what you said. You can't just rely on hope or assume that the person will change. Have they shown signs? Are they working on it?

Zack Carter: 18:03

So I thought that point you made was perfect because you don't wanna discount people who are willing to try to make those changes. It's just are you willing to be patient around it? Are you willing to wait and grow with them? Because you probably have things that you need to grow in as well. The thing is that oftentimes we talk about red flags and say like, oh, they can't have any red flags.

Zack Carter: 18:26

That's not necessarily true because oftentimes a red flag or two, not 10, but a red flag or two depending on what they are in a relationship at the beginning, if you guys have to work through that before you get married, actually will show you what do we do in a relationship together when we have things that are really bugging us in the relationship? Are we able to work through the red flags or not? So some people don't get that opportunity. Everything is smooth sailing, everything is great. And then all of a sudden, you know, five or ten years down the road something major happens and they're like, who is this person?

Zack Carter: 19:10

Right? Because you didn't get a chance to actually work through it. So don't discount the person just because they have a red flag or two. Right? As as long as you're, you know I've listed the things you really wanna be careful around.

Zack Carter: 19:23

But if it's other things, you know, try to see if you can figure it out with them. That's great, Zach. Yeah. Last last thought and then I'll I'll see if you have any final thoughts Sure. Mark, is that any person you date or get married to are gonna have problems.

Zack Carter: 19:40

And you get the benefit of picking the problems you're willing to deal with.

Mark Odland: 19:43

Hey. There we go. You get to pick.

Zack Carter: 19:46

No one else gets to pick. And so if some people are like, oh, don't you notice that she has this thing going on? It's like, if you don't mind it or you're willing to overcome it because they have a list of really good things, cool. That sounds very healthy because we're we're all gonna have to do that. And they're gonna have to do it for you.

Zack Carter: 20:02

Like, they're gonna have to take your red flags and say, like, can I deal with this or no? Any last thoughts, Mark?

Mark Odland: 20:09

Yeah. I mean, you know, one my mind drifted back to being in college. Right? And we were in this bible study. And I remember this person said, alright.

Mark Odland: 20:19

Now let's pray for future spouse. Like, woah. I had never I've never even heard of that concept. And and so that was actually for our, you know, for our faith based guys out there, there is something to that. It's like, don't know who that person is yet, but God help me not screw it up.

Mark Odland: 20:38

Help me not screw it up. And and again, that's the whole paradox. Right? Philosophy, theology is like, is there just one? Is there a soul mate?

Mark Odland: 20:46

I think you can go too far with that. Right? And you can stick your head in the sand and miss on opportunities because you can kinda hide behind your spirituality in some cases. Mhmm. For all we know, God has 10 people that would make an amazing spouse, and you have to step through the door and make it with one of them.

Mark Odland: 21:02

Or maybe there's the one. You know, I I don't claim to have that all solved, but I would just say that, there's something about having an open heart and open mind, also being wise, as you're reminding us today of Zach, the things to avoid. And the last thing I would say is besides the growth mindset, I tell my guys who are looking for looking for a wife to say, you've gotta take risks. You have to take risks, and you have to increase the probability of finding someone who has a better chance of sharing your values and is in line with kinda who you are and where you wanna be. So I I was very sense that, you know, I met my wife at a bible camp as a camp counselor in college, and we were from the same denomination.

Mark Odland: 21:53

So even though we had different backgrounds, different upbringings, there was enough similarity and enough shared values where I feel like I got lucky. Right? I got lucky. And so, yes, no, the prescription isn't all of you guys listening find a Bible camp in Northern Minnesota and become a camp counselor. That would be awkward if you're 40 years old, right, to be the camp counselor.

Mark Odland: 22:13

So I don't think so. But but find opportunities to take risks, put yourself in that path where there's actually a chance to meet someone who has a shot at being the kind of person that you'd wanna be with. And there's a lot out of out of our control, but what can we do? Maximize what we can control and and take a step.

Zack Carter: 22:33

I love it. I love it. Well, before we get to what should you look for in a spouse, in a future spouse, if you're listening to this and you are enjoying this conversation, please hit that like and subscribe button. Leave a comment below. Let us know, hey, you know, what have you liked about the show or what would you like to hear in the future?

Zack Carter: 22:58

And we would just love to hear everyone's opinions because we would love to make sure that we're continuing to make this podcast better and better. So here we go. Moment of What to look for? So off, values is big. Like, I think and this is more personal than than the research, but I I I personally think that making sure that the person's values align with your own is gonna set you up for better long term success, especially if you're thinking about having kids.

Zack Carter: 23:28

Right? Definitely. Because you have to make sure, like, what are we gonna teach our kids? Are like, whether it's a faith perspective, political perspective, life perspective, are you guys heading in the same direction or, you know, are you completely focused on career and she's completely focused on, you know, family. Right?

Zack Carter: 23:48

And if you're not aligned in that that's not going to be setting up for success. However, one of the things that the research shows is that you want to pay attention to the big five personality traits. And if you've never seen them before you can look them up, the acronym is O. N. Right?

Zack Carter: 24:07

And so in the O. C. N. Acronym the N stands for neuroticism. We want to make sure that if we can that the person that we're with is low on the neuroticism scale.

Zack Carter: 24:17

What is neuroticism? That's negative emotions like anxiety, depression, worry. You want to try to have someone that's emotionally stable so you don't feel like you're walking on egg shells all the time. Right? Especially low in anger.

Zack Carter: 24:29

Right? Anger can be really tough to overcome especially if they're not working on it. Like, if they're not willing to work on it, anger can really make a relationship highly difficult to stay in. Really great to have someone that's high on the agreeableness factor. Right?

Zack Carter: 24:43

So these are people that are kind, empathetic. Traditionally, it's called the nice guy or the nice girl. Right? And in some ways, people are like, it's not good to be the nice guy. It's not good to be the nice girl.

Zack Carter: 24:52

It's kind of an insult if you're called nice. There might be some truth to it but at the same time having a person that you're married to in the long term that is willing to serve you, that is willing to focus on you is super beneficial in a relationship. And it's especially beneficial if both people are that way to each other. Right? They're able to put the other person above themselves.

Zack Carter: 25:11

We were talking about attachments earlier. So we talked about anxious avoidant, anxious avoidant when you put the words together. But there's also secure attachment. So secure attachment is a person that feels safe, they're consistent, they're not overly clingy or distant. Right?

Zack Carter: 25:27

One of the things I meant to mention earlier with attachment is there's also a spectrum. Like it doesn't mean that you're a 100% in one of these categories. So when my wife and I got together I was a little bit on the avoidant side, she was a little bit on the anxious side. Right? And we had to negotiate.

Zack Carter: 25:44

We had to use a lot of Gottman strategies of like, hey, sometimes I need to take a pause but I'm gonna come back and talk to you about this. And she had to negotiate and say like, okay I'm willing to pause but you need to make sure you bring it back up to me, right? And so that was the negotiation we had. So that ended up moving us both to the middle where it's healthier that some problems we do let go and other problems we have to engage in. So secure attachment working towards that super important in a spouse.

Zack Carter: 26:13

Last thing is low sensation seeking, right? So the person that's always looking for that adrenaline high, right? Really fun in dating, not as fun when they cheat on you five years later, right? And it doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna cheat on you, but a normal suburban working nine to five job, like if that's the kind of thing you desire in life and this person is really looking for that adrenaline all the time, that's gonna make a healthier relationship more difficult in the long term. So those are the major points I had on my end, Mark.

Zack Carter: 26:51

Did you have any anything on your end that you would suggest people look for?

Mark Odland: 26:58

Yeah. I think I I love I love all that, Zach. I mean, it's it's so fascinating to think about that. I mean, I think so many guys just lead with pure chemistry, and they don't give any of this much thought. And and it is good to get our thinking brains online and, and really evaluate some of these things.

Mark Odland: 27:15

Not to be so picky that we eliminate the whole pool, from possibility, but to say, okay, how can I be realistic? How can I avoid the biggest red flags or the most significant accumulation of red flags? How can I look for these positive traits? How can I look for the those shared values? And then at the end of the day, with good counsel, with wise counsel with with with your heart with your mind.

Mark Odland: 27:40

At the end of day, you gotta take a step. Mhmm. You gotta take a step, and with God's help, with the support of family, with our own commitment to us saying, you know what? What I'm embracing here is loving this person, working hard on our relationship. Until death do us part does not mean we're gonna be miserable until we die.

Mark Odland: 28:01

It means until the day I die, I'm gonna keep loving this person even when I don't feel like it. I'm gonna love this person when it's more of an action than a feeling. Feels more like a choice. And I'm gonna trust that the feelings are gonna come back. The feelings are gonna come back, and and we're gonna build an awesome life together.

Mark Odland: 28:18

And I know that there are situations where that's not possible in this broken world, but at the end of the day, we make the best decision we can. And then we have to take that calculated risk slash leap of faith and go for it.

Zack Carter: 28:29

That's so good. Well, if you're listening to this and you're like, where can I start? I got a brief thing that you can do that I think would be highly beneficial to just get you started on moving you towards beginning to date someone. So very helpful to make a list of the traits you are looking for. So if some of the things hit home today that we were talking about, okay make your list of things.

Zack Carter: 28:53

If it's 10 things, 20 things you want, 30 things you want, cool. List out as many things you want on a sheet of paper as as you want. However, you need to identify those top three things. What are the top three? And when I did this with a client recently, he was like, oh yeah, Looks is in my top three.

Zack Carter: 29:12

The guy that was dating the woman he said was a nine out of 10. He was like, oh yeah, Looks is in my top three. And I was like, really? What what broke you guys up? He's like, essentially, she was avoidant.

Zack Carter: 29:23

So she was avoiding conflict. She was avoiding him. She was working too much, and he was just wanting to connect with her. He's like, yeah. I was more anxious in the attachment style.

Zack Carter: 29:32

I just really wanted to be with her. I worked on myself and I like kinda let her have some spake He was working on himself and likes trying not to be too clingy. But ultimately, she just kept avoiding, kept avoiding, kept avoiding. I was like, okay. So would you actually have looks over, you know, if if if the next person you date has the looks but doesn't but is still avoidant, would you continue to date them?

Zack Carter: 29:53

He's like, no. I was like, oh. I mean, it sounds like looks isn't in your top three then. So the reason I tell that story is that you you actually wanna think this through. And say like, would I actually want this trait above this trait over here or above this trait over here?

Zack Carter: 30:08

If the person wasn't healthy mentally, am I willing to date her even if she is a 10 out of 10 or nine out of 10 or whatever, right? So that's my challenge to you and then have your three things and then that's what you begin to pay attention for. That's what you begin to look for when you're looking for that future spouse, future romantic partner. Cool, everybody. Any last thoughts, Mark?

Zack Carter: 30:36

No. That that's that's

Mark Odland: 30:37

you got the thoughts. You got the mind spinning, Zach. I think there's a lot to chew on for our listeners today. And if nothing else, it's gonna prime the pump to take an honest look and and do some self reflection and maybe reexamine how how they're even looking at the situation. And and and it might be a wake up call for some guys.

Mark Odland: 30:56

So I I really appreciate you sharing what you did today, Zach. And as always, if if you guys wanna drop a comment below and just just let us know what you thought about today's episode and ideas for future episodes. We we would love to hear those ideas, respond, and and keep things rolling. So

Zack Carter: 31:13

Yeah. And and if you're looking for help, just reach out to us at escape the cage now dot com or in the link in the description box below. Alright. Thanks, everybody.

Mark Odland: 31:22

Alright. Thanks, guys. Bye. Thanks.