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A Weird Show for Weirdos Who Make Things
How do you make art when the world feels like it’s on fire?
Welcome to Craft and Chaos, the podcast for creative minds trying to thrive in the madness. Whether you write, paint, build, perform, or daydream ideas that keep you up at night, this show is your companion through the wild ride of making something out of nothing.
Join Misty, Pete, Kyle, and Ryan — a ragtag team of creative types — as they dive into the joy, frustration, and beautiful mess of the artistic process. From the spark of inspiration to the reality of “I actually made this,” they’ll share honest stories, epic wins, total flops, and the weird, wonderful chaos that comes with being possessed by a new idea.
This isn’t just about craft. It’s about surviving the noise, embracing your weird, and making cool stuff anyway.
Wherever the strangest podcasts are found.
Pete Wright
Welcome to Craft and Chaos, the show where we make things, break things, and occasionally realize someone has built a small emotional shrine out of something we said as a joke. I’m Pete Wright, podcaster and sometimes writer, and I’m joined by Mandy Fabian, filmmaker—Robin… Robin Dalton? Who the hell is Robin Dalton?
Ryan Dalton
Oh, you got Robin Dalton?
Pete Wright
There are some crazy consonants in this sentence and they tripped me up.
Kyle Olson
Robin Dalton’s here.
Pete Wright
Ryan Dalton.
Kyle Olson
No, I told Robin Dalton to get back in the car and wait for me till I’m done with the show.
Pete Wright
Damn it, Robin!
Kyle Olson
You leave, Robin.
Mandy Fabian
Atta boy.
Pete Wright
Oh!
Ryan Dalton
Robin.
Pete Wright
Ryan Dalton, author, is here, and Kyle Olson, playwright, is here. Hello, team.
Ryan Dalton
I’m one of those.
Kyle Olson
Hello.
Mandy Fabian
Hello.
Pete Wright
Hello. Say hello kindly, and then I’ll tell you what we’re talking about today.
Ryan Dalton
Here we are.
Kyle Olson
Did you introduce Mandy?
Ryan Dalton
Hello, kindly.
Pete Wright
This is the problem. What?
Kyle Olson
Did you introduce Mandy, or did I pass out for a second and not hear it?
Pete Wright
I did. I introduced Mandy.
Kyle Olson
Then I passed out for a second, Pete.
Mandy Fabian
Yes.
Pete Wright
You did.
Ryan Dalton
Well, I think that’s when you were wrestling Robin to the ground.
Kyle Olson
I’m sorry.
Pete Wright
Robin was here.
Kyle Olson
Oh, that’s what it was.
Ryan Dalton
So, yeah.
Pete Wright
There was a lot going on.
Kyle Olson
I was preoccupied.
Mandy Fabian
Robin takes up a lot of space.
Kyle Olson
Yeah, sorry.
Ryan Dalton
Yeah, honestly.
Kyle Olson
Yeah.
Pete Wright
Here’s the problem we’re unpacking today. We’re going to talk about the moment your work gets even a little traction. People don’t just consume it. They start to organize around it. They quote it back to you. They turn throwaway lines into canon. They want access. They want answers. They want the sequel to the thing you made while you were half asleep and eating pretzels.
Pete Wright
So what changes when you’re at the center of that? What do you owe? What do you protect? What do you encourage? And what do you shut down before it starts chewing through your joy?
Pete Wright
When your work becomes a gathering place, I would like to introduce you to a tour of your own reviews. This one comes in at five stars: “Who is best friends with a Melanie from high school and was supposed to be said Melanie’s maid of honor, but ended up missing the wedding. I am suspicious that this movie isn’t, at least in part, about me.” That, of course, is a review of Jess Plus None from filmmaker Mandy Fabian.
Kyle Olson
Nice.
Pete Wright
How about this one? This one comes in and says: “It’s a rollicking good time. I recently found this podcast and I binged all the episodes. It is so fun. I love the characters, I love the premise, I love the storylines. Long live Madame Liberté, Madame Égalité, and Madame Fraternité.” That is, of course, The Swashbuckling Ladies’ Debate Society by podcaster, writer, producer Kyle Olson.
Pete Wright
And how about this one? See if you can guess who this one’s for. “This will touch your heart as it did mine. Archie’s feelings for his grandfather attend so many layers. A great book, perfect for ages 10+. Also, having had a similar experience with a family member growing up, I know the younger me would have really appreciated this wonderful book. It is a treasure.” Five stars. This is, of course, for Ryan Dalton’s book, This Last Adventure… and also the four-star review that comes right after that: “Would recommend. Okay.”
Ryan Dalton
Oh. Hey. Okay, okay.
Pete Wright
So there’s a whole spectrum of people engaging in our collective material, and I would like to hear from you about the first moment it clicked that you weren’t creating in any sort of vacuum. The first time you realized you weren’t just spitting words on a page. You were creating a place for people to return to. I’m open to whoever wants to go first. But Mandy is sitting there nodding so nicely that I think I’m going to call on Mandy.
Mandy Fabian
You may call on me. It was such a… I don’t know if you’ve ever—filmmaking is an all-encompassing process.
Pete Wright
Yeah.
Mandy Fabian
You work for years on the script, and then you find a way to make it, and then you finish it, and you’re like, okay, what’s next: festivals, and how would I market it? You’re making this whole thing and you understand that you’re sharing it with the world, but I will never forget the moment in my hotel room the night of the world premiere, walking out of the theater, and this woman was like, “Hey, I reviewed your movie. Look for it in a few days.”
Mandy Fabian
And I got back to my hotel room and I was like, oh my God. I never even thought about reviews. I started off doing theater where you do it, and then you run. You do it because you have to, and then you walk away. So you never have to know what they thought afterwards.
Mandy Fabian
And then doing a movie—and I did a bunch of shorts and things—I did a lot of things where I never had to really hear any critical reaction. I never even put my stuff online, to be honest. Not in any way that was really out there. So that was my first experience with it. And I had not prepared myself for it at all.
Pete Wright
Yeah.
Mandy Fabian
At first I was terrified. But then it actually was a very important part of my whole process, because I was like, oh: you have to share stuff. You have to build a thick skin and be ready. Sharing it is the whole point.
Mandy Fabian
That’s the magic of it. So people can discover it and delight in it. That’s what you’re going for. That’s the whole point of making anything. At first it really sent me into a fetal position.
Pete Wright
Yeah.
Mandy Fabian
That was a long answer, but that was it. It was a real moment for me.
Pete Wright
It’s a great answer because it reminds you that the second part of creation is hearing what people think. You forget there are going to be people talking back at you about this thing you’ve worked for years on.
Pete Wright
What do you got, Kyle?
Ryan Dalton
So, creating the show, putting it out there, not really getting anything back. We got our first couple things on Twitter—when Twitter was still Twitter and creatives were gathering there. And it was really cool because it was the first person I didn’t know who came back into it.
Ryan Dalton
You get the people who are peripherally involved—on one episode, then they listen and say, “Oh, that was really fun.” And that’s nice. But then a complete stranger says it, and you go, oh wow, I kind of forgot that other people besides the people who make it are actually listening.
Ryan Dalton
And then the biggest one came from… the call came from inside the house. One of our actor’s siblings became one of the biggest fans of the show entirely. Whenever something would happen, I’d get screenshots of their text conversations—her going, “Oh my god, I’m crying so hard at this,” whatever.
Pete Wright
Oh my god. I’m sorry.
Ryan Dalton
So now I do it and it’s like: what do they think? It’s almost like I have that ideal reader—Stephen King talks about the constant reader. I now have that. I can be like, how’d that go over? Did it land? Is it good? It’s surreal.
Pete Wright
Yeah, it is surreal. Ryan, you’ve written series of things and you keep coming back to a universe. Have you started to see the pickup where people create a world of fandom beyond what you intended?
Kyle Olson
Yeah. I remember distinctly the first—I’ve always had the sense of people reading my stuff when it came out, but at first it was only in my head. My friends and family, the people that knew it was coming, I knew a lot of them would be reading it. I hadn’t thought about the wider public reading it very much.
Kyle Olson
And then I started getting—people would tag me on social media, they’d taken pictures of themselves with the book and gave their thoughts. They were starting to make lists like, “Here are my favorite reads of the fall,” and it’s people that I did not know.
Kyle Olson
That thought—people I’ve never considered are out there, without my knowing it, reading my stuff—that was very surreal.
Kyle Olson
And then you get reminders along the way. You get back to work and you start on the next stuff and sometimes you don’t think about it still happening. Then you get a little piece of fan mail. Then someone will make something for you and bring it to you.
Kyle Olson
I had someone make an entire diorama—a light-up, battery-powered diorama of a major setting in my first novel—and bring it to me.
Ryan Dalton
Wow.
Kyle Olson
Yeah. I was like, you did this?
Pete Wright
The next time they made a diorama of my bedroom, it was really weird.
Kyle Olson
Right.
Pete Wright
I woke up and they were just standing there handing it to me. I’m like, thanks, I guess.
Pete Wright
That is outstanding.
Mandy Fabian
I am totally doing that for my wedding anniversary.
Kyle Olson
Yeah, and some things were… they put craftsmanship into it, which is wild.
Pete Wright
Yeah.
Kyle Olson
And then at one of the cons—Phoenix Comicon—there were the grandparents of someone I knew from the con who randomly picked up my first book, really liked it, and then came and found me for the next two years to buy the next two, because they knew they were coming out in year-long increments.
Kyle Olson
And then the fourth one after that, they couldn’t be there, but they gave a letter to their grandson to give to me. Full-page letter about how they read the books out loud together, cried over the finale together, and how much they loved it. And I was like, man. I didn’t even think of grandparents as the intended audience, yet here they are responding like that. It’s very surreal and very rewarding.
Pete Wright
Yeah. For me, I will never forget—the first time I was in a crowded elevator and everybody left except for one other person. As soon as there was silence, that person said, “I listen to your podcast.” And I thought, oh my God.
Pete Wright
They said, “You’re Pete Wright from the podcast,” then named the podcast, and said, “I just want you to know I listen every week.” They recognized me from my voice, from hearing me say hi to other people. They did not recognize my face. And I was blown away by that.
Pete Wright
It’s that same experience of: oh my God, people I don’t know are listening to this thing. It’s astounding and unnerving.
Ryan Dalton
Yeah. When we started doing Saturday Matinée—the show where all the different hosts from all the different shows would come together and mix and match—that’s when I met Ray, who’d been on many of these shows.
Ryan Dalton
Before the show, he was saying, “Oh yeah, I’ve listened to Marvel Movie Minute,” which is how Rob [Kubasko] and I came into the family. He’s like, “I’ve listened to it a couple times.” And I was like, I’m sorry?
Ryan Dalton
He’s like, “Oh yeah, I listened to the whole season, and then I went back and listened to it again.” And I was like, what?
Ryan Dalton
I always thought of it as disposable—you listen once and it’s gone. But the first time I had that feeling of: it’s good enough that you listened a second time? Oh. Wow. Okay.
Pete Wright
Have you looked into professional help about that?
Ryan Dalton
That really was a different feeling.
Ryan Dalton
As you were nice enough to read all these reviews of us, I would like to bring up the fact that the creator of a thing you discussed reached out to you and you are now a DVD extra. Can you talk about that? That’s a pretty high mark.
Pete Wright
That is a bizarre experience. Over on The Next Reel, part of The Next Reel family of film shows, Andy Nelson and I did a thorough review of one of our favorite films… Intacto.
Pete Wright
And we were found by the production team that had the rights to do a DVD box set release. They said, “We’d like to include your podcast as one of the DVD extras to teach people about the movie.” They took our audio and built the video element with slideshows and clips from the film and all that stuff.
Pete Wright
So yeah, we’re a DVD extra. It’s a little surreal. Look, there it is. Good God, it’s right there. It’s surreal to see your work show up on actual boxes of things that you own. It’s weird.
Pete Wright
So, in terms of creating things: as you’re creating, both of you work in worlds. I want to know if, as you’re writing, you’re now thinking about what to embrace, what to connect to past books—in the spirit of fan expectation. Things that might resonate to the point where they’ll take on slogans and buy t-shirts and stuff like that.
Pete Wright
When you are creating—especially when you’re working in an existing world, but really any property—are you writing with the intent or expectation that something you’re putting on a page or on screen is going to be picked up by fans? Do you ever write lines that would be great on a t-shirt? What’s your expectation of fan building when you’re world building?
Kyle Olson
It’s interesting. Not that I’m thinking of specific people, but when I set out to write a scene—almost any scene—my first question is: what do I want the reader to feel about this scene?
Kyle Olson
So I’m always thinking, in nebulous terms, who is going to be the reader and what experience I want them to have. I don’t typically try to think of stuff that would go on a t-shirt. You do end up having things later where you’re like, oh, that’s a nice turn of phrase.
Kyle Olson
Mechanically, I do think about endings: how do I want to end every chapter in a way that makes them groan at the thought of not continuing? Something that beckons them to turn the page. I think about the intrinsic experience of reading the book more than anything.
Kyle Olson
Now, as I’ve gotten farther into it, there is the occasional thing I’ve indulged in because I think it might pay off outside the universe of the actual book. I knew an author once at Comic-Con who said, “Always write some iconic objects into your book so if it does well you can sell that as merch later on.”
Kyle Olson
So with the Black Cape saga, I’ve put a couple things in there that I describe in a way where I think, yeah—if this takes off enough, we could create merch: t-shirts, a pendant, something like that. I think about it a little more now than I would have, but mostly it’s about the experience in the moment.
Pete Wright
I love that, and I love that you’re thinking in terms of seeding. One of my great loves is John Wick, and I carry in my wallet one of the gold coins as a challenge coin. It’s heavy and gold and it feels great.
Pete Wright
As soon as I have a hint somebody’s a John Wick fan, I’ll pull it out and slide it across the table. There’s just a moment of connection and joy. I love that this stupid memorabilia connects me to people I’ve never met before, in a way that’s full of joy and not dread in the year 2026.
Ryan Dalton
Yeah, I have fandom tattoos on my body. I have a collection of nerdy weaponry.
Pete Wright
Right.
Ryan Dalton
When I was at the dentist a little while ago, somebody recognized Sting from Lord of the Rings, and turns out she’s a huge Lord of the Rings fan. So my dental hygienist and I—mostly her talking because her fingers were in my mouth—we had this nice conversation about Lord of the Rings.
Ryan Dalton
And it was like, because I have it out there. That’s why I have this. I literally have my fandom on my arm. She found the one thing she connected with and we had a great conversation.
Pete Wright
I think that’s huge. I don’t think J.R.R. Tolkien ever imagined that Ryan Dalton would get a fan tattoo of Sting on his arm.
Ryan Dalton
He’d probably be really annoyed by it.
Pete Wright
He was kind of a snarly old guy.
Ryan Dalton
Yeah.
Pete Wright
But we live in an age where some agency on the part of the creator exists—where you get to influence fans’ participation.
Pete Wright
Mandy, what do you think? I happen to know we have a whole line of t-shirts of slogans and stuff we’ve put from Jess Plus None.
Mandy Fabian
It’s the joy of my life. One of the merch things came about because, for weeks after seeing it, my kids were like, “I reject your rabbit wisdom.” It’s a line from the movie. And I loved it. I was like, oh my God, we have to put that on a t-shirt.
Pete Wright
Yeah.
Mandy Fabian
It didn’t occur to me, honestly, because I’d mostly done theater. I heard from friends and people I knew, but to your point, Ryan, I didn’t realize having it open to the world meant anyone—people who don’t know you personally—can see things.
Mandy Fabian
It’s always exciting to hear from someone you don’t know. I’m trying to be better. I’ve recently kind of come clean with the idea that the internet can be a very mean place and I always felt like, oops, that’s not for me. I don’t belong there. I’ve always felt private.
Mandy Fabian
But I love connecting with people who connect with something I’ve done. I like sharing my appreciation for other people’s work. The celebration of things is just as important as the people who go on there and criticize things.
Mandy Fabian
Working on my next movie, I think all the time about what people tell me they loved about Jess Plus None. What was singular about it that struck a chord? I try to put that same essence into my next thing. Even if it’s a different genre, I do have a certain thing going on. It’s exciting that people come back.
Pete Wright
It’s kind of delightful when you get made aware that people have watched or listened so many times that they’ve created culture out of it.
Mandy Fabian
Oh yeah. That’s the dream.
Ryan Dalton
Even your elevator story—I had something similar in the Phoenix theater community, which is pretty small. I was at a thing talking to somebody. The guy introduced me to his wife. And then he said, “Oh, he’s the one who wrote—” and I had just done an adaptation of 20,000 Leagues.
Ryan Dalton
The look on her face changed: “Oh, you did that thing?” Face to face, it was the first time I experienced that. I got a small glimpse of what it’s like to be a celebrity for like one minute.
Pete Wright
I often think about that scene in When Harry Met Sally—Bruno Kirby and Carrie Fisher—when she quotes something and he says, “That’s me. I wrote that.” “I’ve never been quoted back to me before.” I love that. That was my elevator moment.
Pete Wright
So as you transition to seeing more of this stuff, and seeing people pull on threads of your material, what’s your sense of agency in cultivating that community? To what degree have you already done it, if at all? Ryan, we’ll start with you again.
Kyle Olson
Okay. First I want to mention an elevator moment I had that was cool and unexpected. It was dinner at a friend of a friend’s house. Big group. They had teenage kids there.
Kyle Olson
Their daughter kept looking at me like she was trying to figure something out. Later, when it was quieter, she came out holding something and said, “I knew you looked familiar,” and she held out my book.
Pete Wright
Ugh. Right?
Kyle Olson
And I was like, well, that’s super cool.
Pete Wright
So what do you do? You sign it, you get a selfie?
Kyle Olson
I signed it for her, yeah.
Pete Wright
You say, hey, do you want me to come back and hang out in your room for a little while?
Kyle Olson
Uh…
Pete Wright
Let me get a glass of wine.
Kyle Olson
Maybe with my lawyer, so—could you sign this release before we have a conversation?
Ryan Dalton
Uh-huh, yeah.
Pete Wright
Who made it weird just now?
Ryan Dalton
Uh-huh.
Kyle Olson
No, I did say, “Would you like me to sign it?” and she did, so I signed and personalized it. That was a cool moment.
Pete Wright
That’s awesome.
Kyle Olson
As far as fostering community, I don’t do a ton online. I mainly do what I want to do online and know that if there are people that find me through that and then find my books, that’s great.
Kyle Olson
It mainly consists of me posting thoughts I think are quirky and weird and silly and funny. Some people think they’re funny. If they think that, they may be drawn to say, who is this guy, and check out his books.
Kyle Olson
I don’t spend a ton of energy on community stuff because I feel like the energy is better poured into the books. Having said that, as a series picks up, it’s a good idea to split time a little more. It’s good to acknowledge fans.
Kyle Olson
I had one fan of the Time Shift trilogy create a wiki for the series that broke a bunch of stuff down.
Ryan Dalton
Oh, nice.
Pete Wright
Oh, for crying out loud.
Kyle Olson
So of course I had to shout that out and spread it. And as much stuff as I’m putting into the new Black Cape Saga, I hope someone makes a wiki—because then I’ll refer to it and be like, what did I do in book four?
Pete Wright
For sure.
Kyle Olson
It ramps up as a series goes on. But I’m still in the build point for this one again, so I’m more head-down in my work at the moment.
Ryan Dalton
Yeah. It’s hard because I don’t get a lot of feedback. I don’t get a lot of comments. Everything sort of goes by feel.
Ryan Dalton
There’s a balance: I want to build a universe, so whenever I need something I look back and go, is there a character I’ve already done that I can bring back, as opposed to creating something brand new? That gives continuity.
Ryan Dalton
But I don’t want the Game of Thrones thing where if someone jumps in now they’re completely lost. It’s a back-and-forth.
Pete Wright
Yeah. Everything’s pastiche of your own work. That’s rough.
Ryan Dalton
Yeah.
Ryan Dalton
And I don’t really know who the fan favorite characters are. I just kind of go by who’s available—characters I love, actors I like, and sometimes they can’t do it anymore, or their circumstances change, or they’re not acting anymore, and I have to revamp.
Ryan Dalton
So it’s a balancing act of what worked in my head, what I can do, and what works within the schedule.
Pete Wright
To the original question: how do you engage when you discover there’s a fandom growing around something you’ve created? When people comment, what kind of world do you build, and to what extent do you feel responsible to be involved?
Pete Wright
I run this challenge all the time. Some of the podcasts I do have communities, some don’t. Our biggest community has thousands of people in it and it’s very busy. They’re self-supporting. I don’t need to be there. Thank God I don’t, because I’m low-key terrified of it and I love it at the same time. It’s complicated.
Ryan Dalton
Yeah.
Pete Wright
There are enough people that if I screw up, it’s going to be rough and I’m going to regret it. So I’m gentle. Maybe that’s a disservice to them and to me, because I’m arm’s length.
Pete Wright
But it’s important today in a way that it wasn’t important for Charles Dickens.
Ryan Dalton
Although he made a lot of money touring around, filling up theaters, reading his stuff. I think he was aware he had a following.
Pete Wright
Yeah, it’s actually the same thing.
Ryan Dalton
Yeah.
Pete Wright
Mandy, you toured all over with Jess Plus None. You put your body in front of people to build, presumably, a fandom.
Mandy Fabian
Yeah. It was great. It was great to get a sense of feedback, because reviews are really the people willing to write reviews. It’s not honest feedback of how the piece is actually doing.
Pete Wright
Yeah.
Mandy Fabian
Mostly because it’s a comedy, and I wanted to see people’s response. Also, for filmmaking, anybody who shows up live to a movie theater—you have to be there to thank them, in my opinion.
Mandy Fabian
You move heaven and high water to get in person, look them all in the eye, and go: this is a circle. We are in a circle. Without you, this circle is not complete. This movie in an empty theater—or not at all—is not complete. You have come and completed the circle. Thank you for being part of this art. It really is that important.
Pete Wright
Yeah.
Mandy Fabian
And I did try to build—there’s a real responsibility for an artist, or if you have a team. It’s important to stay in touch and let people know how to find you when the next project comes. Follow me on Instagram, get on the mailing list, I’ll let you know. All those things are kind of an extra job.
Pete Wright
Yeah.
Mandy Fabian
You can’t really focus on it when you’re working on your new project. That’s the hard balance.
Mandy Fabian
And I always wonder: do they want to see me drinking tea in a cute little London cafe? I don’t think so. I think they just want to hear about my next project. But that might mean I haven’t posted in a few months.
Mandy Fabian
Connecting with people: I actually took my films and put them up on a YouTube channel. It hadn’t occurred to me before. They were always on my website. I was like, people know I’ve done stuff, but I forget I’m a drop in the bucket.
Mandy Fabian
So I made a channel, put them all up, and did nothing. I didn’t even tell anybody. And one of my films got like 27,000 views in two months.
Mandy Fabian
So you go, oh—that’s a great way. I don’t have to work too hard. That site itself is connecting with people. They’re bored and looking for a Christmas movie, or a horror comedy, or they like this actor and that actor happens to be in one of my movies.
Mandy Fabian
And some people comment and most don’t, but they like and they subscribe. I don’t need it for clout. It’s just feedback that people are watching.
Mandy Fabian
What I’m not good at is controlling the narrative of how to get—like, I would love to do a live chat: “Hey, I have this idea. The woman in my next screenplay has a terrible secret. I need ideas. What’s the worst thing you’ve ever heard somebody did that they were ashamed to tell you?” I think it’d be fun.
Pete Wright
Yeah.
Mandy Fabian
I would love to include ideas and then have fans see it in the next movie.
Pete Wright
To create an economy of fan ideas. Real give and take. It’s kind of beautiful.
Mandy Fabian
Yeah. I’d love to collaborate. Everybody is a storyteller and that’s why they love storytelling. That’s why they love going to the movies.
Pete Wright
We’re going to do a mid-show sidebar now. We’re going to talk about music and brilliance will ensue. When we come back to this topic in our last segment, we’re going to talk about our favorite creators from the perspective of what they do to build us into their economy as fans. And then we’re going to play a game.
Pete Wright
But first, I’d be remiss if I did not introduce our first sponsor.
Ads
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Kyle Olson
I’d like to say that I do use ennui for all my existential crisis needs, and it is outstanding.
Ryan Dalton
Oh, there we go.
Kyle Olson
Five stars.
Ryan Dalton
Yeah, yeah.
Pete Wright
Five stars for ennui. A couple points: I’m so glad they were here to sponsor us today.
Ryan Dalton
Uh-huh.
Pete Wright
One: I think we need a shirt that just says “Ennui,” and the shirt has to just be white or black.
Mandy Fabian
Oh no, I don’t know.
Pete Wright
The other thing is I’d like to call back to—I think some of these actors have appeared in a previous sponsor ad. I feel like some of them may be getting around, and it’s nice to see them get work.
Ryan Dalton
Okay. Yeah, exactly. Even in this time of tumult, the actors are still going. Special thanks to Amy Shaw for no particular reason.
Pete Wright
Just a delightful human being, Amy Shaw.
Kyle Olson
I thought that was Shaw. Nice.
Pete Wright
And now I turn to our sidebar leads for today’s show, Kyle Olson and Ryan Dalton, who are going to talk to us about music.
Ryan Dalton
One of the things Dalton and I share is a passion for music to create by. I want to talk about what kind of music we use—and other people can use—to set up the environment so you can shut out whatever noises are around the world and put pleasant sounds into your head that aren’t too distracting.
Ryan Dalton
One of my big go-tos is soundtracks. I tend to not like lyrics at all because when you’re writing, suddenly you’re listening to words, and maybe they go through your fingers, and you find, no, that’s not what I want.
Ryan Dalton
I started with popular ones, but then every time a familiar John Williams riff would come up it would distract me. Now I’m thinking about Star Wars. So I started eliminating those.
Ryan Dalton
Then I added video game soundtracks, because they’re great: orchestral, designed to keep your heart pumping and keep you moving. It got to the point where I was creating specific lists for specific moods. You match movies and shows to what you’re doing, cycle through, and at a certain point your brain catches the rhythms and you have to add more so you’re not hearing the same things over and over.
Kyle Olson
Yeah. In general, I stick to instrumental, especially because my work tends to be dialogue heavy. If I’ve got other words going through my head, it interrupts my rhythm.
Kyle Olson
Exception: if I’m writing intense action scenes, I don’t mind lyrics as much—especially if it’s an intense song I can crank until it’s a white-noise haze and becomes more vibe than anything. Then I can scream through the action scene. Not literally scream. Can’t scream in a coffee shop. I mean, you can. It’s probably legal.
Ryan Dalton
Once. You can do it once.
Kyle Olson
Yeah, then they ask you to leave.
Ryan Dalton
Yeah.
Kyle Olson
Well, they ask the first time.
Mandy Fabian
Oh, they ask you?
Pete Wright
Things are different in London.
Kyle Olson
Soundtracks are handy. I like obscure TV show soundtracks. One of my favorites is from a detective show from Finland called Bordertown. The music is cool.
Kyle Olson
There was a show for two years about alternate universes called Counterpart, and that has really cool stuff too. Obscure is good because if it’s too iconic or tied to iconic scenes, that’s all I see in my head. That undermines what I’m trying to do.
Kyle Olson
I tend to use stuff that evokes a specific emotion and rhythm, and that ends up in the scene. If it’s tied to something else, it undermines it.
Kyle Olson
Sometimes I want something longer that’s just a vibe in the background. There are tons of compilations on YouTube—long instrumental vibe pieces. Sometimes stitched together, sometimes synthesized. You can have a vibe running as long as you want. That’s good for drafting or planning.
Kyle Olson
Once I’m heavy into writing specific scenes, I tend to use shorter pieces. That’s where I like “trailer music”—two to four minutes. Soundtrack songs can be seven or eight minutes and shift tones, but I only want one tone when I’m writing a specific scene. So I shy away from those when I’m deep into drafting.
Kyle Olson
I’m always collecting songs. I have a catch-all writing playlist that I pull from when I make individual playlists for the thing I’m working on.
Kyle Olson
Right now I’m working on probably the most serious thing I’ve ever done. Not a lot of jokes. So I have stuff that’s darker: Broadchurch, Bordertown, Severance. Stuff that feels a little wrong, but beautiful too. One of my favorite early parts of creating is saying, okay, time to make the playlist. That’s where the tone and rhythm starts to come alive.
Ryan Dalton
There’s a group that basically does pop songs as a string quartet. They do Taylor Swift, songs from the 80s, all of it. I’ve made a nine-hour playlist of their stuff because they’ve been doing it so long. I listened so much I got an award last year: “You’re a top listener to Vitamin String Quartet.”
Ryan Dalton
And I’m like, thank you? Does that mean they get a message saying there’s a guy who really likes your stuff? But you can just have it on. Every once in a while you catch on to something and be like, oh, that’s “Take On Me,” but it doesn’t pull you out of what you’re doing.
Ryan Dalton
How about you two?
Mandy Fabian
That’s so funny. I do different things. In the beginning, trying to figure out a project, I can’t listen to words either. It’s too dreamy. I’m reaching into the ether to build a foundation.
Mandy Fabian
But once I have the foundation, I typically have an album that is the album for that project—usually one of my favorite artists. I’ll listen to that album to get into the zone. But I can’t listen to it while I’m forming the story. Only after I’ve got the outline and it’s time to play in the world.
Mandy Fabian
If I listen to an album I love while I’m forming bare bones, I start listening to the song instead of writing.
Mandy Fabian
Today I discovered Spotify has writing playlists, creativity playlists. Apple Music has stuff too. But the soundtrack thing might be smarter. I do typically go for focus music, chill music, instrumental. I never thought about using soundtracks. That might be interesting.
Pete Wright
I’m a huge soundtrack fan. My go-to is usually Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross. And Nine Inch Nails—whatever you want to say about the Tron Ares soundtrack, the soundtrack was dope. So I’ll put on that kind of music.
Pete Wright
Also, Brian Eno is in heavy circulation in my writing playlist. The challenge for me isn’t lyrics. I’m fine with lyrics. It’s the pacing. If it’s inconsistent, I can read the momentum of the music in the finished work. I can read the flow of action to stillness in a finished chapter, and I have to be careful because it gets in the way of story. I don’t know what that means. There’s probably a condition.
Mandy Fabian
Interesting.
Kyle Olson
Just one last comment: Pete, you may not be the Taylor Swift of podcasting, but you’re definitely like the Beyoncé of podcasting. At least.
Ryan Dalton
Oh, wow.
Pete Wright
Okay. That’s pretty good. I’ll take it.
Mandy Fabian
That is aspirational.
Ryan Dalton
I do enjoy lyrics so much that I’ve started a new project for this year and I’m going to share it with listeners. I’m going to do a new mix every month. Not necessarily music to write to, but more like the feeling, the vibe.
Ryan Dalton
The first one is done for January, and I’ll do one a month. I’ll put them in the show notes and socials. It’s my 2020 Mix project.
Pete Wright
It’s 2026 now, right?
Ryan Dalton
Yeah, but 2020 Mix instead of “six,” because the word is similar.
Mandy Fabian
From six years ago. Twenty-twenty mix. Got it.
Pete Wright
Oh. I needed to see it. Is there a logo? Have you done the brand guide yet?
Ryan Dalton
I have.
Pete Wright
We’ll work on it.
Ryan Dalton
I’ve got cover art and everything. Link in the show notes. It’s on YouTube Music just because it’s less evil than Spotify.
Kyle Olson
As a callback to what we talked about before, one thing I do that’s my version of community engagement—just putting stuff out there—is I’ll often do an Instagram story I call “Today’s writing soundtrack.” I’ll screenshot a song that’s particularly key to what I’m working on and put it up.
Ryan Dalton
Nice.
Kyle Olson
Sometimes people say, “Oh, I love that song,” or “I’ve never heard of that.” Other writers will say, “That’s the perfect song I’ve been looking for.” It’s low effort. I’m already doing it anyway, and it gets people thinking about music and creativity.
Mandy Fabian
Very cool. Since we’re being generous, I will offer to sing at any of our listeners’ weddings.
Ryan Dalton
Very nice. As long as they screen Jess Plus None after the wedding, right?
Mandy Fabian
Yes.
Pete Wright
At the party.
Ryan Dalton
Right.
Pete Wright
For sure. But after the marriage. Definitely after the ceremonies.
Mandy Fabian
Definitely after.
Pete Wright
All right. That was awesome. Let’s see who is up for our second sponsor break.
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Mandy Fabian
Oh my god, I got all choked up on that one.
Pete Wright
I know. I had no idea.
Mandy Fabian
I’ve loved so many pencils.
Ryan Dalton
Uh-huh.
Kyle Olson
That was more earnest than I expected.
Pete Wright
Yes. I’m surprised we got a mini documentary out of that.
Kyle Olson
I thought there was going to be some dark ironic twist, but no, that was very sweet.
Ryan Dalton
Apparently people just wanted to appreciate the pencil. Thank you to pencils.
Pete Wright
Outstanding. Let’s come back to fandom. I want to do a very quick round table: who is your favorite creator based on how they manage their fandom, of which you are a member?
Ryan Dalton
Hmm.
Pete Wright
Kyle.
Ryan Dalton
Austin Kleon. He has such a passionate fan base and he basically gets to be out there sending inspirational words to people to make their own art. The amount of stuff he’s able to do just by having people support him is pretty impressive.
Pete Wright
Love it. Mandy?
Mandy Fabian
I know it’s cliché, but Taylor Swift. She hasn’t just released albums. She drops all these little—she’s constantly communicating with her fans in this fun game. It’s a conversation.
Mandy Fabian
She drops Easter eggs in all of her things. Any creator that has Easter eggs. I’ve fantasized about putting a hidden bottle of Cholula in my films and seeing if everybody can find it. I love the idea that you’re offering a game for someone to come in and play with you. And her outfits.
Pete Wright
Ryan, favorite creator?
Kyle Olson
Right now it’s the main cast and creative lead for Critical Role. I love those guys. I’m an old school D&D nerd, and watching passionate, talented storytellers and voice actors come together is fun and compelling. Often it’s creative fuel for me.
Kyle Olson
They drew fans and built an empire off doing a thing together that they would have done anyway. That part hasn’t changed. They’re still doing the thing they want to do with their friends and having a great time.
Kyle Olson
Matt Mercer—the game master for the first three campaigns—said his only thought is creating a world and adventures that his friends in the room will love to experience. I really like that.
Kyle Olson
They have a massive global fan base. They do great live shows. There’s an online element. But it seems like they draw good boundaries also. They encourage a good quality community. It’s less toxic than some other communities. I admire that: doing what they genuinely love, and the byproduct is the fan base.
Pete Wright
What a great way to segue into the game. The game is called “Tell Me You’re a Fan Without Telling Me You’re a Fan.”
Pete Wright
I’ll name a fandom. Each of you gives one tell: a phrase you’d say, a behavior, a purchase, a minor identity quirk that instantly outs you as a fan of that fandom, without saying you’re a fan.
Pete Wright
Then we’ll do the creator version: think about your fandom. What should be the tell, the in-joke, the swag that defines that boundary? I’ll name the fandom, you’ve got a few seconds, and you don’t have to know deep canon. You just have to know what those people are stereotypically known for.
Mandy Fabian
I was kind of hoping the game would be hide and seek because I’ve been playing that this whole episode.
Pete Wright
The whole time.
Mandy Fabian
No, we’re not doing that. Okay, that’s fine.
Pete Wright
We have to go really fast.
Mandy Fabian
We’ll do yours.
Ryan Dalton
Yeah.
Pete Wright
Mandy, we don’t have time for your jibes. All right. Tell me you’re a fan of Twilight—the YA self-aware vampire-werewolf phenomenon.
Kyle Olson
How about lusting over teenage boys even though I’m a middle-aged woman with three kids?
Ryan Dalton
“Hang on tight, spider monkey.”
Mandy Fabian
Is that a wooden stake in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
Pete Wright
Okay. Now tell me you’re a fan without telling me you’re a fan of The X-Files.
Kyle Olson
“The truth is out there.”
Ryan Dalton
Cigarette Smoking Man.
Pete Wright
Right across the bow. Mandy, what do you got? I know you were a big fan of X-Files.
Mandy Fabian
And then it got weird.
Pete Wright
Okay. Tell me you’re a fan without telling me you’re a fan of Taylor Swift. I think I’m going to send Mandy into vapor lock. There are too many choices.
Ryan Dalton
Folklore is highly underrated.
Mandy Fabian
Do you want one of my bracelets? Do you want to trade bracelets?
Pete Wright
Okay, that’s pretty good.
Kyle Olson
That fan base is so huge. I don’t know any unifying characteristics because there are so many fans.
Kyle Olson
Picking up a guitar and crying about relationships?
Pete Wright
Ouch.
Kyle Olson
That’s not insulting. That’s made a lot of artists a lot of money.
Mandy Fabian
Your required watching will be the docuseries. Thank you very much.
Pete Wright
Tell me you’re a fan without telling me you’re a fan of The Princess Bride.
Ryan Dalton
“Inconceivable.”
Kyle Olson
“To blave.”
Mandy Fabian
“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
Pete Wright
“As you wish.” Okay. Tell me you’re a fan without telling me you’re a fan of Critical Role.
Kyle Olson
“Is it Thursday yet?”
Ryan Dalton
“How do you want to do this?”
Pete Wright
Okay. Mandy, give me something. Give me anything.
Mandy Fabian
Put some cinnamon and frosting on that and give me a cup of coffee. That’s the only role I can think of.
Pete Wright
Okay. Tell me you’re a fan without telling me you’re a fan of Pokémon.
Kyle Olson
“Gotta catch ’em all.”
Ryan Dalton
“Pika.”
Mandy Fabian
I’ve never seen a Pokémon. I mean, aliens in my phone? Aliens are in my phone?
Pete Wright
You know what? That might do it. Ryan?
Ryan Dalton
“Team Rocket’s blasting off again.”
Pete Wright
Let’s get to some soft fandoms. Tell me you’re an Apple person without telling me you’re an Apple person.
Ryan Dalton
“I miss the headphone jack.”
Kyle Olson
Jeans and a black turtleneck.
Pete Wright
Yes.
Mandy Fabian
Where is my settings now?
Pete Wright
One more, only for the jokes: tell me you’re a fan without telling me you’re a fan of Harry Potter.
Mandy Fabian
Sorry, guys, I gotta go take a wizard.
Pete Wright
What? That is… tell me you’re a fan without telling me you’re a fan. I’ve got about a hundred more fandoms, so we may come back to this game, but I can already see there are definitely some password memes in there. I think we’ve got some red flags for sure, and maybe even some merch.
Pete Wright
“I’ve got to take a wizard” is going on a shirt, for sure. Thank you everybody for hanging out with us today in the Craft and Chaos lounge. We sure appreciate you, even if Mandy pops in and out like a wizard. She just apparates all over the place. You see what we’re doing? We’re leaning in to problematic magic.
Pete Wright
We sure appreciate you being here. Check us out at https://craftandchaos.fun. Tell your friends. This is how we do. We grow together because you tell your friends, and we create a fandom, and that’s good and healthy and wholesome for everybody.
Pete Wright
On behalf of Ryan Dalton and Kyle Olson and Mandy Fabian, I’m Pete Wright, and we’ll see you next time right here on Craft and Chaos.
Kyle Olson
Go make weird art.