So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People

In this episode, Megan Senese and Jennifer Ramsey are joined by David Cross, law firm partner at Goodwin, to talk about the intersection of leadership, disability, and finding purpose in your career. With over 20 years of experience in high-stakes antitrust and civil rights cases, David shares how he transformed his perception of success and found the courage to embrace vulnerability.

David talks about the evolution of leadership, from hierarchical structures to fostering inclusive, flat teams that invest in each individual’s growth. He dives into the emotional journey of navigating his disability, learning to lead with kindness, and using his platform to advocate for others. Through his story, David offers valuable insights on creating a supportive environment in both the legal field and beyond.

This conversation explores personal and professional growth, the importance of mentorship, and why leadership is about more than just titles—it’s about the impact you make on others. Whether you're a seasoned leader, someone navigating burnout, or simply looking for a fresh perspective on success, David's story will resonate.

Learn more about our guest:
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Want to go deeper? Curious about 1:1 coaching with Megan or Jen? Or want the inside scoop on stage? Hit us up below, we’d love to chat!

Creators and Guests

Host
Jennifer Ramsey
Host
Megan Senese

What is So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People?

Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People. Where we explore behind-the-scenes of work, law, life, and everything in between. We're your hosts, business development and legal marketing coaches, Jennifer Ramsey and Megan Senese, and we're here to showcase the human side of the legal world, from marketing and consulting to the very real struggles of balancing work with being human. This isn’t your typical, dry legal show. We're bringing you real stories, candid conversations, and smart insights that remind you that outside of being a lawyer or legal marketer - what makes you human? So whether you’re navigating billable hours or breaking glass ceilings in a woman-owned legal practice, this legal podcast is for you. Stay human. Stay inspired. Namaste (or whatever keeps you human). 

[00:00:00] David Cross: The measure of what I think of have I've made, it has nothing to do with awards and accolade. The moment I've made it in my mind is when those people are coming to me and saying, I really wanna work with you. I'm having a great experience. I'm enjoying this. I'm learning. I feel that you're invested.

[00:00:17] David Cross: That's how I've made it.

[00:00:19] Megan Senese: Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People, where we dive into the beautiful chaos of work life and everything in between. Outside of being a lawyer or a legal marketer, we wanna know what makes you human. And with that,

[00:00:34] Jennifer Ramsey: let's get started. I'm really excited to welcome our next guest today, David Cross.

[00:00:41] Jennifer Ramsey: David is a top ranked trial lawyer known for winning high stakes antitrust IP and commercial cases. As well as for his civil rights advocacy through pro bono work, named one of America's Top 200 Lawyers by Forbes and a finalist for the American Lawyers 2023 Attorney of the Year for his significant impact on the legal industry.

[00:01:03] Jennifer Ramsey: David has also formed the Disability Affinity Network. At a previous firm, David spent years resisting the label, disabled, not wanting it to define him or limit how others saw him in a Bloomberg Law article. Titled, Disabled But Equal, he shares, quote, I did not want my physical difference to limit my opportunities or experiences.

[00:01:25] Jennifer Ramsey: The more I fought perception, the worse it became. I am disabled and I'm okay with that because it doesn't define or constrain me. My disability has become one of my greatest strengths. End quote. So David, welcome.

[00:01:41] David Cross: Thank you.

[00:01:42] Jennifer Ramsey: We are so happy to have you. You've accomplished so much in your legal practice and your advocacy work.

[00:01:49] Jennifer Ramsey: Let's start by talking about how you've seen leadership evolve over time, especially when it comes to mentoring others and fostering, creating an environment where everyone can thrive. What does leading by example look like for you?

[00:02:06] David Cross: Yeah. Well first, thanks for having me on. I appreciate this. Uh, and I love the way you all are doing.

[00:02:10] David Cross: This is great. And I whole, I love the whole concept of leading by example, leading with kindness. I think it's so important. Um, for me, the, the way I think of it is as a leader, I, I want to try to set ideals for folks in terms of how they should think about how they interact with each other, both across the aisle, within their own teams, investing in people.

[00:02:32] David Cross: And you what? I will say, kind of where your question started. I, I think the biggest change I've seen in my 20 something years at this point is finding that there are more and more leaders who do want to invest in individuals, uh, and members of the team and spend more time explaining things and being inclusive.

[00:02:52] David Cross: I'm not a fan of hierarchy. I think folks would tell you, I, I. Think about the way our teams operates, whereas as a, as a flat organization from the paralegals on up to the most senior partners, everybody has a voice. Everyone's at the table, everyone's invested. Everyone understands what's happening in a case holistically, and why.

[00:03:11] David Cross: And I think that's critically important in the field. Everybody feels like they're part of that and they're part of something and they all have an important role to play and really an equal voice in terms of what they're contributing and, and I feel like I have seen a different change to that where I started my.

[00:03:25] David Cross: Career, everything felt more hierarchical. First year supported to second and third years, and by the time you, you may not even talk to a partner potentially, uh, if you were junior. Um, and if you did, they're always busy and they, they may have time to talk to you and they may not. I had incredible mentors coming up, but I will say those folks in part stood out because they were rare and they were willing to take the time and communicate with you in a level that most didn't.

[00:03:51] David Cross: And that has stayed with me as I. So my guiding principle is I try not to forget that I was a junior associate at some point, and one, I felt like in moments where I was frustrated or disappointed because I didn't feel like I was engaged, I didn't know what was going on, I was getting one off tasks. I, I couldn't talk to people who were decision makers who could teach, and the folks who really stood out or the people that I had to model myself after.

[00:04:14] Megan Senese: I love that so much and I love that like we're asking you about, right, leading by example and you're then giving us all the examples by how which, which you're leading. So talk to us a little bit about your path. Did you always wanna be a lawyer? Was was, it was only recently that someone brought up to me saying about how a lot of people feel like the law is a calling and that has been.

[00:04:38] Megan Senese: Not something I've heard a lot of recently. And so it was, it was a nice reminder to, to kind of bring that front and center and I'm as, and so I'd like to hear, yeah. Is that something that speaks, is that something that speaks to you? Did you fall into it? Talk to us a little bit that,

[00:04:54] David Cross: yeah. I love the concept of law as a calling.

[00:04:56] David Cross: I totally agree with that. I, I, I think sadly for a lot of folks who probably don't feel that way, um mm-hmm. But I, I, for me, I've always felt that way. And, uh, I knew I wanted to be a lawyer since I was fourth grade. Really, because I had a teacher who told me in fourth grade, you should be a lawyer. And did not mean it as a compliment.

[00:05:13] David Cross: By the way, I, I argued, I argued with the teacher about everything. My grandmother once famously said that I would argue with a stop sign, but you know what? I would win that argument. I would just be clear. I would win her argument. Like something about that sign would be wrong. But yeah, so for me, I just remember, I don't know why, but a relatively young age.

[00:05:32] David Cross: I thinking to myself, I wanted to be in some sort of job, some sort of position where I felt like I was helping other people. And for the longest time I thought I wanted to be a prosecutor. 'cause that always struck me as where you're really serving the public and you're doing it for work. And I still think that's true.

[00:05:47] David Cross: Over time, I gravitated to the civil practice instead to the criminal practice. I've done a lot of criminal cases over the years, all on the defense side, but I also do a lot of plaintiff's work on the civil side. So I do both sides, but ultimately for me it's. Feeling like the My work is having some impact in a positive way.

[00:06:05] David Cross: Whether that's, again, criminal defense work where you're helping protect people's rights, their freedoms, or it's civil work on plaintiff for inside, where you're helping protect people's business, their livelihoods, whatever it might be. For me, it very much has felt like calling it part of the reason the pro bono work is so important to me.

[00:06:22] David Cross: I do so much of it is because love my billable clients. I think that work is all really important. In a lot of ways we are. Genuinely helping preserve people's livelihood in, in that our, in a lot of those cases. But Ramona gives me, you know, even sort of a broader bandwidth on the kind of things we can do, particularly in the civil liberties area, which I've really enjoyed and it's been an important work.

[00:06:42] Megan Senese: Yeah, and we, we've seen a little bit of that, um, where you've been sharing where you can, you know, publicly on, on LinkedIn, and I've appreciated those updates. So how, how do you balance, I'm assuming that if you're taking on a pro bono case, and I'm, I know every, every firm kind of handles it differently, that you still have to do your, your like regular work and then pro bono's kind of extra, right?

[00:07:02] Megan Senese: How do you balance that? How do you find the right case? Um, are you allowed to do whatever you want in terms of pro bono? Does it have to align? So I'd love to just tell us more about what that looks like. How do you get it all done? And I guess how, how invested do you get in the, in, in the relationships with the people that you're representing?

[00:07:20] Megan Senese: How do, how does that all work?

[00:07:22] David Cross: In terms of what I can do as pro bono, that is decided by the firm where if I'm at there, there's a committee or may decide what you can do. And there's certain criteria that have to be met for that. I cannot think of an instance where I wanted to do something pro bono that I wasn't ultimately able to work out to do.

[00:07:39] David Cross: In terms of the balance, what I'll say is the balance is actually much harder as a partner than as an associate. It's not hard for associates. There's a lot of pressure on associates. Obviously it puts as much time as you can. It's billable work, even at firms that really value the pro bono just because we are a business.

[00:07:55] David Cross: Right? Associates, ssociate, driver of the, of the revenue. And so you do need them to spend as much time as they reasonably can, particularly within, you know, we budget certain hours and we try to predict how our associates are gonna work, and then we, we live according to work according to that budget. But most firms, I think still today, certainly among kind of the, the top ranked firms still give billable credit for pro bono.

[00:08:18] David Cross: Either without a limit, some have limits, uh, in terms of what the, they'll count. And so I always found as an associate, it was easier in the sense that. Since I'm getting billable credit for that, try to put as much billable time as I can, but also I still have some flexibility on the pro bono. The reason it's harder as a partner is because you're responsible for generating work and you're responsible for managing matters and managing people and, and so it's not just like as an associate where maybe I do a hundred hours of pro bono in another.

[00:08:51] David Cross: 50, 60 or a hundred hours of billable, depending on how busy the month is, and that just kind of switches back and forth from month to month as a partner, particularly more senior. The expectation is right, that I'm out there developing business, keeping relationships to clients, and managing potentially dozens of matters, including very large matters with lots of people.

[00:09:11] David Cross: And that work is what it is, right? You can't just say, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna spend 50 or a hundred hours less on that for a month because. You, you just can't opt out of it. And so pro bono has been hard, particularly on some of the really large cases I've had, and I think of pro bono work almost as a hobby for me in the sense that I enjoy it so much that even in those times when it's really busy and I'm working like 300 plus hour months to, to do the billable and the pro bono and all the other stuff we do as partners.

[00:09:44] David Cross: For me, if when I'm working on pro bono matter. You know, that's like for me, when I go on a hike with the dogs or I'm sitting on the beach because I enjoy it so much, it's so important to me and I just, relationships are so important to me. It's like reading a book, right? It's, that's my fun time and it's been great.

[00:10:02] Jennifer Ramsey: I was just gonna ask, over the course of your, of your legal career, is there a particular pro bono case that has just really stuck? In your mind or it's just really near and dear to your heart. I'm, I'm sure you could say all of them are, but I'm just curious if you've got one in particular to share, because I just think it's such a lovely side of law that when people get to work on those types of cases that are so fulfilling.

[00:10:31] David Cross: Yeah, there are many, and it's hard to. Pick. I, I'd say what bubbles up to mind? The one that I've been working on now, we've actually got briefing going in today on a, on a really important sanctions motion, is representing, um, two partners in at major leading law firms who were sued by a former federal trade commissioner when they came forward along with other women, and revealed the fact that he had been having inappropriate sexual relationships with them and other women while he was a professor.

[00:11:03] David Cross: I. Uh, at George Mason University and including also while some of these women worked for him, um, he sued them in defamation. It is, in my opinion, a classic slap suit. And unfortunately they spent a lot of time and money, depending that case. And so I was able to take it on pro bono for one of the two women.

[00:11:23] David Cross: Uh, and he took it up to the cusp of trial. Uh, my original client settled. I think about three days before trial for no money that she had to pay outta pocket, and this is public. They settled for a relatively small amount from her assurance coverage, which was a tiny fraction of what he was seeking. And then the other one, we then took on the other defendant of the case and represented her.

[00:11:46] David Cross: We were gonna handle the trial for her. And I think, to no one's surprise, because our view was always, there was never a genuine interest in this case from the other side. He dismissed the case voluntarily, the last business day before trial. And so we are now, as we've filed to recover fees and costs for that second defendant.

[00:12:05] David Cross: And that one has been really important to me. 'cause I just think it, it, in my mind, it was so unfair to these women to make them live through this. Um, a lot of the conduct and the way the case was handled in my view was not appropriate. And it just, it represents a broader struggle, particularly for women who are already fighting so many challenges in the workplace and in large organizations like universities where you have people that I think sometimes abuse those relationships that really should be trusting relationships.

[00:12:41] David Cross: Sometimes that becomes sexual or, or they take advantage in other ways. And then when you have women that find the courage to speak out about this, and then suddenly they're fighting for their livelihood facing potential bankruptcy, that to me is just wrong. And so that one has been really important, not just for getting the right result for them in that case, but more broadly, we trying to hopefully show that this is not the right way, these things should be handled.

[00:13:08] Megan Senese: We just had, um, Eliza Shaman, I don't know if you are aware of her, um, but she bought, had something similar with a judge and she was able to make her entire, she had to leave her clerkship and now she launched the legal Accountability project where there's a database for, for clerkships. And so it. It's so unfortunate that these situations happen and probably will continue to happen.

[00:13:33] Megan Senese: But it also, there's these tiny moments like with your pro bono work and then with Eliza, um, nonprofit, that there's these tiny slivers of kindness or turning things around or, you know, fighting for good, causing good trouble. So those are the kinds of things that we like to try to. Share when everything feels kind of gloom and doom.

[00:13:54] David Cross: Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely, uh, some positive lights out there right now. I think some of the things that folks are doing, which takes a lot of courage and a lot of investment of time. Yeah. I mean, it's one when you see people that are willing to put this time and nurturing into these things.

[00:14:08] Megan Senese: So it, it kind of leads us to one of the questions, which is, what do you think that the industry could be doing better?

[00:14:16] Megan Senese: What would you change? What would you change about the legal industry?

[00:14:20] David Cross: How would I change about legal industry? I think that the main thing that comes to mind is I worry that that some of the folks in our industry, particularly among what we think of as sort of the top firms, ML 100 M, L 50 firms, my worry is that some of the firms have become overly focused on the money we make and that that sometimes drives.

[00:14:47] David Cross: In my view, what are the wrong decisions and the wrong priorities? And I think it has a negative effect sometimes on how we treat people, particularly within the organization. And that has troubled me a lot because, you know, look, we all need to make money. I think it's probably fair to say that we all wanna make as much money as we reasonably can, but for me, that's never been the objective for what I do.

[00:15:12] David Cross: It's a consequence, right? And the way I always try to tell people is, you should love what you do. Hopefully you have the opportunity to do that. I mean, some folks don't, right? You just need a job. But if you're fortunate enough to be able to choose a career, choose a job, do something you really enjoy so that the day in and day out does not feel like a grind, it's something gonna be those moments to challenge, right?

[00:15:33] David Cross: There are plenty of moments in my career like dealing with opposing counsel who's difficult, right? Where you're just like, oh, really? Didn't have, I hope I didn't, I wish I didn't have to do this. But for the most part, it's important, it's fulfilling. And to do something you love, work hard at it, treat the people around you well, you know, try to excel to the best of your ability and the money will come.

[00:15:55] David Cross: Right. And so that's how I've always thought about it, is pay me what I'm worth based on what I'm contributing. And. That's great. But the objective is not that. The objective is to do great work, do impactful things, build relationships with people, and help other folks. And I think maybe I'm just naive. I, I think there was a time, at least in my experience as I think back, particularly to folks in leadership and mentors I had at firms, I think that was more of the focus at firms.

[00:16:24] David Cross: It really was sort of thinking about how important the work we do is for the rule of law, how important the work is we do for our clients. Thinking about our teams as sort of a work family and more and more I've seen a shift, particularly if you've seen profits for equity, partner revenues just skyrocket.

[00:16:41] David Cross: I think there are some firms that have that ha are no longer achieving the right balance of maintaining that really important culture while also still being really profitable. And I think you can do both. I think we're doing that here, which is one of the things I love about this place. But my fear is that that is a.

[00:16:59] David Cross: Diminishing asset among leading law firms.

[00:17:02] Jennifer Ramsey: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's sad. I to talk about like, so we started out leadership by example. I'm curious, David, aside from mentors and leaders in your life who you personally know and has known who is a standout leader to you, whether they're in a business organization or you know, someone's book who you've read or someone you admire, really.

[00:17:28] Jennifer Ramsey: Like a lot. I just curious, like who do you look to as the North Star for leadership?

[00:17:35] David Cross: Right? Like a specific person or like a person like type,

[00:17:38] Jennifer Ramsey: like if you have a specific person.

[00:17:41] David Cross: Oh, interesting. You know, it's funny, I, there are, I'd say there are a lot of people that I put into that bucket. 'cause there are a lot of names I would give you.

[00:17:49] David Cross: And for me it's all people that I've been close to over time. It's not so much like. I mean, there certainly are like famous people and celebrities that I think are really impressive and do great things. But in terms of the people that have, I think about when I'm making decisions and I think to myself like, oh, how would this person handle that?

[00:18:07] David Cross: Or, I think about lessons I've learned. I'd say there's probably somewhere in the range of a half dozen or so folks that are always kind of in the back of my mind and they, they often had different leadership styles. I. Uh, and one of the things I also love about those people is they're all flawed, which for me is so important to recognize.

[00:18:32] David Cross: 'cause I think too often we do not give each other enough grace where, you know, someone might lose their cool in a moment or be impatient or send a cur email and it suddenly becomes, oh, that person may not be a great leader because they didn't handle something the right moment in the right way. Yeah.

[00:18:48] David Cross: Instead of like leaning in with that person and having a dialogue, like how do we help each other grow and how do we help each other be the kind of leader we wanna be? I. So for me it's those specific people, mostly partners of firms that I came up with or worked with, but not entirely. They're also folks in a lot of other organizations I've worked with.

[00:19:05] David Cross: And so there are a handful of names I could give you at firms, but, but they all are,

[00:19:10] Megan Senese: and you'll have to list everyone. And then there'll be a big, you know, problem, we shout 'em out. It'll be like the

[00:19:15] David Cross: Oscars outskirts where I'm gonna have to name all these people and then be like, oh my gosh, I forgot. Yeah, you forgot.

[00:19:19] David Cross: I

[00:19:19] Jennifer Ramsey: would like to thank my fourth grade teacher who told me to be a lawyer. So what. Tell us then, describe your leadership attributes and characteristics. Tell us about what you think your leadership style is like. Hmm. Or what would Junior Associates say behind your back? Woo.

[00:19:38] David Cross: I should go grab is one of these, so just pull em in.

[00:19:40] David Cross: You can get the real skinny on what they would have. You know, it's funny you ask that because I, I actually, literally, that conversation just came up with a number of associates here recently and. Uh, I, I was happy to hear that folks had very positive things to say that people are very eager and interested in looking for opportunities to work with me.

[00:19:58] David Cross: And I get a lot of emails from associates reaching out. I have coffee with a lot of associates, a lot of lunches. But I, you know what, what I would like to think, and you can do a podcast with the associates at some point. Any of this is true and accurate. I certainly am flawed and, and imperfect, but what I really try to do is.

[00:20:17] David Cross: Real relationships on a personal level with the folks. So where they really do feel like I'm invested because I think that's so important like that. If I'm gonna ask a lot of someone, both in terms of quality and quantity of work, I want them to feel like I completely have their back. I'm gonna help them guide them.

[00:20:34] David Cross: I'm gonna teach them, yeah, I'm gonna invest in their career long term. So there is, you know, a long term sort of payoff for what they're putting in. Then it's not just transactional. Because that's another thing. Getting back to your prior question, one of the things I think we need to be better about in the legal industry, I think often too often relationships in the workplace are transactional in the sense that it's, you're an employee, I'm an employer, you need to do your work.

[00:20:59] David Cross: Don't complain. Just get it done. I, and I don't think that's the right way to think about relationships, certainly not the right way to think about leadership. Um, I want folks to know, they're like, I'm all in for them and we're all in this together. Like I said, I love the eight concept you started with about leadership with kindness.

[00:21:17] David Cross: I think that's so important and, and I will confess that I've been doing this for over 20 years and that is something in my earlier years I struggled with. 'cause I could get impatient with folks if I felt like they weren't contributing the way they needed to be, or I felt like they weren't being fair.

[00:21:34] David Cross: You know, sort of the growth for me was learning grace is how I think about it, right? Being big with folks. One of the most important lessons I ever remember I learned was a, a senior partner at the first law firm. I worked at my career, uh, gie the head of litigation in the DC office. I had a good, really close relationship.

[00:21:52] David Cross: He was a good mentor and I remember saying to him that I was frustrated 'cause I was, there was a more junior associate who kept putting me in a time crunch 'cause I would get there, work late and would need a ton of work. And that made things difficult for me. And I remember what he said was, that was my failing.

[00:22:07] David Cross: That wasn't the associate's feeling, because my feeling was I should have recognized that different people are good at different things, right? Some of us are really good writers, some of us are good on our feet. You know, the unicorns are good at all of it, right? When you're supervising, when you're leading, it's your job to figure out what is everyone's strength and weakness and that you manage to that, right?

[00:22:25] David Cross: So if I've got someone that I know that struggles with time management, or I've got someone I know the writing is gonna need more work for me, then it's on me to build that in. And so instead of telling them, look, this is due to the client on X day, I need you to get it in advance. I need to tell them it's due to the client on X day.

[00:22:41] David Cross: I need it from you. Maybe a day in advance, three days in advance of a week in advance, depending on how I assess each of those people. And that I think, again, too often, those of us in leadership think this person's struggling. That's their failing. That's their fault. They need to fix it. Whereas really it's.

[00:22:57] David Cross: It is as much mind if not more mind and not having evaluated them and not having taught them and not having built in sort of what we need to make that relationship work for both of us. Because I think we write people off sometimes too early, uh, when they're struggling instead of realizing people are struggling in a lot of different ways and often they just haven't learned what they need.

[00:23:18] David Cross: They haven't developed a skillset, they don't have the insight or understanding yet to realize. What's expected, and if you work with those folks, a lot of those folks will really shine in time.

[00:23:28] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah, that's really thoughtful. I, you know, it, it, it, I think it takes you being thoughtful and observant and perceptive too.

[00:23:37] Jennifer Ramsey: Like that's part of the equation. I think some partners just be like, what, whatever, get it to me. I need it. And then, like you said, it's very transactional. They're onto the next thing. It takes that slowing down a little bit and. Investing in people and, and really understanding them and frankly giving a shit, right?

[00:23:55] Jennifer Ramsey: I mean, like caring about them. I don't know. I think that thoughtfulness and mindfulness and being perceptive and observant of what others need is a really beautiful thing. Not everybody has that, and I think that's what I'm, you know, hearing from you, like you've got that. That qua in that area that I think is really, really valuable.

[00:24:20] Jennifer Ramsey: 'cause a lot of times we're all just moving so quickly. It's like, whatever. I just, I need it now. I need it yesterday. I need it the day before yesterday. Do it instead of the understanding, the compassion, the kindness, all of that. And I just, I think it starts with just. As a human being, wanting to be perceptive and observant and curious about others.

[00:24:39] Jennifer Ramsey: How do they work? What makes them tick? How can they get it done? How can we play to their strengths? So I just, I think that's a really beautiful theme thread

[00:24:48] David Cross: to pull here. Yeah. And I would say, I think it also comes from a sense of gratitude because for me, 'cause I think back to my career, like something that just always kind of resonates with me is I have so much gratitude for the folks who took time.

[00:25:00] David Cross: To invest. I mean, particularly in moments where I was struggling, were there things like I needed to learn some really hard lessons. And there are again, a handful of folks, including people in like the most senior levels of leadership, right? People who did not need to take time to sit down and have a conversation with me or take me to coffee or take me to lunch, or take me for a drink and have a hard conversation.

[00:25:21] David Cross: They could have just moved on and said, look, he does great work, but he's challenging these other respects and we're just gonna. Move on. And so for me, I have so much gratitude that there are folks that were like, there's a gym here that's probably rough around the edges and we're gonna polish it into a diamond.

[00:25:37] David Cross: And I have really tried to internalize that and pay that forward, because I just think that's true for so many of us. None of us comes out of the womb perfect, and we never get there. But with the right guidance and leadership and relationships, we can strive for it.

[00:25:54] Megan Senese: Well, and, and I love hearing, I love hearing your story.

[00:25:57] Megan Senese: I mean, we, we opened up about, you know, all the awards you've won and, and as we're asking you about, you know, what makes you such a great leader. I can see you physically getting, like, I don't know if it's uncomfortable is the right word, but I can see that you're like a humble person where you're like, well, you know, let me explain all the other things I'm not, like, I'm still working on, I'm not so creative, but I do wanna come back to some of the awards.

[00:26:18] Megan Senese: Right. And I wanna talk, come back to some of your big, the marquee things that we pulled out. You know, the Forbes, the finalist, so the attorney of the year forming the Affinity Network, the Disability Affinity Network, and then being published in Bloomberg. I want, I wanna talk about that for a couple minutes, particularly on the article.

[00:26:37] Megan Senese: What was the tipping point for you? And we pulled out, I pulled out quotes specifically that you wrote in the, in the article, and hopefully I captured them correctly. But what was a tipping point for you to, to want to write that piece? Was it kind of after you like recognized like I've. Maybe you'll hate this.

[00:26:53] Megan Senese: I've made it. I've, I'm wanting, I won all these awards. Now I feel like, is the time for me to, to share my story or has it always been shared like that and now it's just getting picked up because of publications and LinkedIn and things like that. Talk, talk to me, talk to us a little bit about, about that.

[00:27:08] David Cross: Yeah, I, I, it's actually the opposite. It's not that I've made it, it's that, you know, in the, in the sort of pandemic era, beginning of the 2020, right, where we had a lot of downtime, I think a lot of people. Felt a lot of, a lot of time to kind of think and contemplate on things. I actually found myself thinking that I had not made it in the way that I'd wanted to, and less so in sort of awards, but more was, was I really the kind of person and the kind of lawyer that I wanted to be.

[00:27:37] David Cross: And I had frustrations with my myself. And what I sort of kind of came to realize was. I was struggling sort of with my own identity and how I thought about myself, and that that also affected my relationships and interactions with other people because my disability gave me a certain insecurity where I always felt like I had to shine in every moment, right?

[00:28:04] David Cross: I can never show any flaw. I can never show any weakness. I can never show any failure because that would just. Reinforce or confirm the stigma or the stereotype that somebody already had on their mind that this person is defective or broken or disabled. And that was something I had resisted. It resisted for almost 50 years, and that also led to certain sort of, I think, traits and habits that I wasn't happy with, and I think didn't always help me get my vest in certain moments.

[00:28:34] David Cross: And so I sort try to kind of grapple with that and think about how to deal with that. And what I came to realize is I just needed to lean in to who I am, stop resisting also how people see me, because they're gonna see me, how they see me no matter what. There's no controlling that. I can't spend my whole life with my left arm in my pocket hoping no one realizes I'm missing a hand.

[00:28:55] David Cross: It's not gonna happen. And people are gonna have certain views and they're gonna have. Both conscious and unconscious views and opinions. And so instead, lean into it, get more comfortable with it, build my own confidence around it. And it was really life changing. And the real sort of pivotal moment for me was when I decided to go to the, the former chair of my prior firm and have a conversation with him about it, to say, look, this is something that's now core up to me.

[00:29:22] David Cross: And, and I'd, I'd like to. Be more of an advocate on it within the firm, an external firm. 'cause I think there's just a lot of progress we need to make in this area for this demographic of people with disabilities in the profession. And it was scary in the sense because I'd never talked about it with anyone.

[00:29:38] David Cross: Not really my friends, not my family. I would never have said I'm disabled. I'll tell you even now. I don't actually like saying it. And so. I didn't know how he would respond. I was worried it might play into all the worst stigmas and stereotypes, even just in an unconscious level. 'cause he was an amazing person who was one of the best leaders I've ever had the privilege to work with.

[00:30:00] David Cross: And to his credit, just he leaned at responsive. I mean, he responded to the email in like minutes. We were set up a call with them like the next day and it was very much run with this, we will support you in whatever we can. And we made some really impactful changes at the firm. To help folks identify, make sure folks had resources, but most importantly, making, making clear that there was a culture at the firm where folks could identify as disabled, could reach out.

[00:30:27] David Cross: Not sort of the technical, I need an accommodation under the a DA, but I'm struggling and I like to have a conversation with how I can navigate that. And it was sort of a paradigm shift for me and many others. And that started at the top. And so that was kind of what led to the journey was I feel, felt like.

[00:30:44] David Cross: I, I'm very far from having made it there. There are things that I need to work on and, and improve and make sort of a change and it's been great.

[00:30:51] Megan Senese: Well, um, and I love that and I, I think it's interesting to that like I've made it, someone asked me that recently too and I was like, definitely not. Yeah. Like when I have guests on, I'm like, oh my gosh, like we've got this great guest 'cause they've made it right like then and how exciting for us to share.

[00:31:08] Megan Senese: And so it's interesting. I, you know, I don't know. I don't know if maybe more of us need to lean and be like, you know what, yeah, I did. I've made it like I'm great. I don't know if it's

[00:31:17] Jennifer Ramsey: a, if it's something we should, I like the, the yogi in me likes to say we're all works in progress. Right? Right. I mean, we're just works in progress and practice makes practice.

[00:31:26] Jennifer Ramsey: Practice doesn't make perfect practice, makes practice, and we all just have to continue to practice showing up the best that we can be. Whatever the heck that means, that changes on any given day.

[00:31:37] David Cross: Yeah, and I also say the, the measure of what I think of have I've made, it has nothing to do with awards and accolade.

[00:31:44] David Cross: The most important thing to me is the question you asked about how would associates and professional staff and others say it is to work with you. The moment I've made it in my mind is when those people are coming to me and saying, I really wanna work with you. I'm having a great experience. I'm enjoying this.

[00:32:00] David Cross: I'm learning. I feel that you're invested. That's what I've made it.

[00:32:04] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah. I love that. I love that video. I think I, I wanna ask a fun human Yes. Non-work question. Where is the, what's the hardest hike you've done or the, the more, the most far-flung corner of the world hike that you've done.

[00:32:20] David Cross: Two in the same park in Zion Park.

[00:32:22] David Cross: I did Angel's Landing, which was less challenging, but scary 'cause you're literally going up the side of this spire with a chain bolted into the side of the mountain. But what made it particularly scary was we were, uh, my wife was pregnant with my son, so this is 19 years ago. And my buddies from high school, we all climbed to the top of this thing.

[00:32:45] David Cross: We had a video camera with us. We get up there and being young idiots, we didn't check the weather. We get up there standing on the very tip top and it's like bald at the top. And I, my buddy, his hair stands up and I was like, Dave, your hair is standing up. Boom. The sky opens, lightning comes crashing, and we're standing on the top of this needle.

[00:33:07] David Cross: And so we just, it is the funniest video. It's now lost. I think it actually got recorded over 'cause the camera's on. We go flying down this thing as fast as we can, which is incredibly dangerous 'cause it starts raining, there's lightning. We're trying to hold onto this chain. And I remember thinking like this is gonna be the, the, the, the headline tomorrow is gonna be idiot 20 somethings climb up and that it's number some more and don't make it down.

[00:33:34] David Cross: And, but in that same park we also hike in narrows, which was amazing. That was the hardest hike. It is an exhausting hike 'cause you're hiking through a river and the bottom of the river feels like it's nothing but bowling balls. It's, it's, but it's gorgeous. I recommend those two hikes, but the second one is really hard.

[00:33:51] Jennifer Ramsey: Okay. Beautiful. I've never been there, but I've seen the pictures and I don't know that. Yeah, the Angel's landing looks really scary to me. I don't love hikes, so Yeah, neither

[00:34:03] David Cross: if you don't like hikes,

[00:34:03] Jennifer Ramsey: kudos to you. I didn't know lived

[00:34:06] Megan Senese: hotel. I

[00:34:06] David Cross: didn't like heights.

[00:34:09] Megan Senese: Yeah. So no skydiving for you, huh? No. Wow.

[00:34:14] Jennifer Ramsey: I've done Yosemite. Have you been to Yosemite, David?

[00:34:16] David Cross: I have not. It's on the list. Oh, I

[00:34:18] Jennifer Ramsey: feel like you would love that. Yeah,

[00:34:19] David Cross: yeah, yeah. It's on the list. I haven't been there. Yeah,

[00:34:21] Jennifer Ramsey: it's really cool.

[00:34:23] Megan Senese: So, um, this feels like a beautiful place to kind of wrap up. And again, it feels, it, it is really our honor that one you are speaking to us.

[00:34:33] Megan Senese: Um, and two that we became LinkedIn friends and I appreciate that and I'm really always feel so. Inspired when I see what I think of as someone who has made it with, with a voice and, and posting publicly on things that are important and near and dear to their hearts. So I love that. And it's moments like this where Jen and I are like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that this is our job now where we get to share people's stories and, and bring some heart into the industry.

[00:34:59] Megan Senese: And so we, we thank you for being part of it, and we thank you for sharing your story and trusting us. And with that, Jen. You can take us away where you're always like, what? What am I supposed to do?

[00:35:11] Jennifer Ramsey: I know I, well. So just again, to pull the thread on our theme of, of leadership and kindness. I teach yoga, my side hustle, David is yoga.

[00:35:23] Jennifer Ramsey: It's like my real passion. I end all of my classes with go out into the, be into the world, be good to yourself, be kind to others. Namaste. And I just feel like that is a fitting closing for. Our conversation today with you because you really are kindness manifested here in our, on our podcast today. So thank you very much for joining us,

[00:35:46] David Cross: Al.

[00:35:46] David Cross: Well, that's very kind of say thank you. I appreciate it. You got, I think what you're doing is important, so it's good to have this voice, so keep doing it.

[00:35:53] Megan Senese: That's it for today. Join us next time on So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People. Can't get enough of us? Visit us at www.stage.guide.