Victoria (00:00.11)
You
Tyson (00:00.292)
Good there now and All right. No, we're good. so good to have the opportunity to sit down with you I was just saying that over the last couple of months on the podcast I think strengths become like a real selfish interest of mine and partly Because of the guests I've been speaking to and partly because I just finished Tom Brady's biography which goes deep into his world of playability mobility strength health
And as a bloke, so a little context for you, I'm 37. I started running when I was 12. I probably got interested in strength training when I was maybe 20. And in that last 17 years of being interested, the idea of mobility and pliability, flexibility seems to be like an often overlooked element of building a successful running strength training program. And so I thought maybe like just to lay the foundation of this conversation.
Victoria (00:39.159)
huh.
Tyson (00:57.474)
That's an open-ended, probably more of a statement than it is a question. But I thought maybe you could speak to that for a minute and then we'll just, hey, we'll just take it wherever we feel like taking it from there.
Victoria (01:09.23)
Absolutely. I love that. actually I'm not sure I'm going to give you the answer that you Might think I'm going to answer with which I think makes for a very interesting conversation I have not read Tom Brady's book, but I have heard a lot about it And I think what's amazing about it is that he does so much right and he's obviously a very professional athlete And I think for professional athletes in particular
they go the extra mile because that's their livelihood, right? That's what they're doing day in and day out. And I take a much different approach because I don't work with professional athletes. I work with everyday people who are working nine to five jobs, maybe even longer sometimes, and who are just looking to run their first marathon or maybe even run their 10th marathon, but they're not winning marathons, right? So I do take a little bit of a different perspective when it comes to kind of that
1 % that I think you're talking about which is that mobility flexibility pliability all of that good stuff and especially in the context of running right I think my entire job as a physical therapist and as a strength and conditioning specialist and and honestly my motto as a human and just how I've
spoken to myself about these things because I'm a big runner like you. started when I was very young. I ran my first half marathon at 12 years old as well. I, and then I also played tennis in college and in school in the States. So I've been around sports for a very long time. Started strength training in college as well when I was playing tennis. So that has really been on my mind, but I think
what I have come to believe and what the foundations and my core principles are is that sometimes we don't have to overcomplicate things. Sometimes it's actually better to keep things simple. And I think for the vast majority of us, there's even maybe a conversation we can have at the end of this where I would say even those professional athletes might benefit from keeping things a little bit more simple than overcomplicating things.
Victoria (03:22.93)
And in that case, when we're talking about mobility, pliability, flexibility in the running world, my first question is, okay, but do you have stability before it all? Because we need stability. We don't necessarily need to be bringing our foot above our heads when we're running. If we're talking about ballerinas, whole different story, right? But I work mainly with runners.
Tyson (03:35.725)
Yeah.
Victoria (03:47.926)
So when we go into that conversation, I'm saying, okay, do we have the foundations of what we need before we even have that conversation?
Tyson (03:55.572)
Such a good point. And this is exactly the reason that I wanted to bring you on. So a little background. So I would estimate, I don't know for sure, but I would estimate a large majority of the listeners to this show are in exactly that field which you spoke about. I mean, I've rubbed shoulders with a lot of elite runners, a lot of elite coaches, and I feel like my mindset is a little of the realm of, let's just get, even though I'm not training for an Olympic race, I'm not training to be a professional runner anymore.
I think I sort of tend towards trying to find those little secret ingredients that might add a little added value. But the truth is, yeah, as you say, the foundation of strength doesn't need to be over complicated, especially for someone who is just looking to make it a little part of the routine. maybe we could, with the word stability in our mind, we could just start breaking down what that actual incorporation of a strength.
Victoria (04:30.798)
Mmm.
Tyson (04:54.18)
training routine with a focus on stability might look like. Because, I mean, all you have to do is Google strength training for runners and you spend 10 minutes there and you go, my gosh, I'm so overwhelmed. have no idea where to start. I have no idea if the way that I'm incorporating this into my routine is effective for what I'm doing. So how about let's start with stability and maybe we could just do the hypothetical of, and I mean, this is a broad stroke of a brush, but we could imagine that
Victoria (05:06.04)
So overwhelmed.
Tyson (05:23.844)
a relatively new runner comes to you with an interest in starting some form of strength training to complement their running. Like what does that conversation look like and how do you even start looking at where to incorporate some form of strength?
Victoria (05:37.07)
That's a great question. And I think it always starts with just an understanding and an explanation of what we're trying to achieve, right? So again, we're talking about a runner who comes in and there, maybe their goal is to run a 5k, a half marathon, a full marathon. And they say, you know, I have had these injuries in the past or I'm wanting to start a strength routine that compliments my training. How do I even get this done? Cause just like you said, you spend five minutes Googling and you're like,
I literally don't know what to do. There's a million different exercises that you can do. Do I do mobility? Do I do flexibility? How much time do I spend on these things? And I will kind of walk you through my process, but the first thing that I want to say is that sometimes looking at all of that can actually, and yes, it is important, I think. It is important sometimes to work on mobility and in certain cases we can go over that as well. But sometimes thinking of it in that way,
really almost makes you blind to the most important foundations. And I think that's why anyone listening to this podcast right now, making things simple and just starting from the foundations, you can literally never go wrong with that. let's go through that. at any time I see a runner comes in and they're like, where do I start? We first have a conversation about, what do we need for running in general?
Right? We know that when your foot hits the ground, what happens? Right? Your foot hits the ground, your foot and ankle hits first, then your knee takes in and your hip. Right? Those are the major, those are the major parts of your body that you're going to be utilizing when you're a runner. Yes, upper body is important and we'll get into that, but obviously a strength program for a runner is going to be a little bit more lower body heavy. Right? We're not necessarily going to be doing bicep curls.
20 times per day to improve your running performance. So that's just a side note there. We're mainly talking lower body, right? And we have to have an understanding of how our muscles work when our body lands on one foot. And then we basically go into push off. We are in flight mode for a second and we land on the next foot, right? Now, if you look at it that way, running could technically be seen as like small jumps, right? It's technically jumping.
Victoria (07:57.258)
And each time you land, you have about five to six times your body weight going through that leg that you land on. So then we start to think about, okay, if our body is taking in this amount of force every time your foot lands, your foot hits the ground, is body weight exercises, is that enough for our body to actually stabilize? Right? And in many cases, look, I don't want to be, I don't want to...
be the bearer of bad news here, but at the same time, look, if all you have access to is body weight and that's all you wanna do, that's better than nothing. I'm very happy with that. However, if you're a runner who has specific goals, who wants to get faster, who wants to get stronger, body weight probably isn't enough. So then we're gonna have the conversation, okay, we are eventually going to have to add weights. I just like to kind of put that into perspective from the beginning, right?
Then we go into, what are the muscles that we're utilizing when we're running? The quads, the glutes, the hamstrings, the big muscles around the hip and the knee, when we're talking about the foot and ankle, we have the calf muscles that provide a lot of force at push off. So we're really looking at those big muscles of the leg and the lower leg that we're going to be targeting, right? And if we're talking foundations, what is the most basic exercise we can come up with that targets
a lot of these big muscles. We're talking squats, we're talking deadlifts, we're talking calf raises, we're talking lunges, right? And when you say, have you done a squat before? Most people are like, yeah, I've heard of it. I know what a squat is. Have you heard of a deadlift? Yeah, I know what that is. And then we can start to think, okay, those are really foundational exercises. Let's work on those. Let's start from there.
And then we can kind of expand on that journey, right? It doesn't have to be all of these little things. Like I hear people like, should I be doing toe yoga and those foot intrinsic exercises? And look, I'm a physical therapist. I get it. Those have value specifically in rehabilitation cases. But if you're just a runner looking to get stronger, don't waste your time with that. Start with the big foundations.
Tyson (10:09.186)
Yeah, I mean, that makes so much sense. So get that foundation right before you start just dribbling off into, you know, the real one percenters as we sort of open the conversation. so, all right, so you say, let's start with the foundations. And obviously there's so many different directions we could take this Victoria. So feel free to direct me because you're the professional here. I'm just a bumbling yes when it comes to the world of strength, which is why I wanted to bring you on here.
Victoria (10:36.43)
Yeah.
Tyson (10:36.96)
In terms of structure throughout the week, you're a new runner, you've got these exercises, how many times are we looking at incorporating this into a schedule? And maybe as like a side note to this question, like is there a particular part of the week before or after certain sessions that you'd recommend we just start?
Victoria (10:53.518)
Great question. Well, it's going to depend on the runner's goals, right? So for most runners who are looking to start a strength routine, I typically advise a runner not to start it like two weeks before a goal race, right? Like if you're about to toe the line of a half marathon or a marathon for the first time, don't just start incorporating strength training randomly. Like you can wait a couple of weeks, go do that race, and then start it after. So I like to start kind of looking bigger picture.
Look at your calendar year, right? And if it's right now when we're recording this January, right? And your next race isn't until December. Then now is actually a really good time to start to incorporate strength trading. So we can kind of break it up into seasons. And I look at this as almost like pre-season. Some people like to call it off season, whatever words you like to start with, but it's, typically a time when you don't necessarily have a specific running goal on the calendar.
Maybe you do have a race, you don't really care much about it. You're kind of just doing it for fun, something like that. But you're basically taking the time to really spend time with strength training, right? And strength training means you're going to be loading the body. And maybe that means pulling back a little bit on your running, right? So find a time in your calendar year that you feel comfortable doing that. Because again, as a physical therapist, I see a lot of times people just
adding in strength training without manipulating any of their running volume, bang, overuse injury. So you need to be smart about how you're just going to, you're now going to be working your muscular system, which is what you want to be doing because that's how you get stronger. But in order to work your muscular system, you're adding load that you might not be used to if you're starting this for the first time. So you have to be...
probably most likely reducing some of that running volume or maybe reducing intensity for the first couple of weeks as you add this program in. So that's the first thing that I want to start with. I think it's really important. Note again, because I always look at things of how to reduce your risk of injuries. Like that's number one for me always. The second thing is it's going to depend on how many times a week that you're actually running. But I typically recommend if you're in this season where you're dedicated to strength training now,
Victoria (13:11.362)
don't have a race on the calendar that you care too much about, you could probably strength train two to four times per week. Now, for runners who are listening to this who are like, I don't love strength training, I don't want to strength train four times a week, you don't have to, right? I actually only strength train twice a week. Sometimes I'll fit a third day in and maybe that's like mainly an upper body day, something like that. But I think for the majority of the population who are just looking to get stronger or to benefit their running,
Two times per week is the perfect amount. And then we look at, but what if you're running five or six times per week? Then where does the strength training fit in? Are we doubling up days? Are we doing all of that? Again, this is gonna depend on what your schedule specifically looks like, but I tend to look at the keep your hard days hard analogy. So if you have specific speed workout days, if you have specific long run days,
You might want to pair that day up with a strength training session so that you can take the next day easy recovery run or an off day. And that way you're spending time loading your muscular system and then also providing time for recovery. I just said a lot there. Is there anything I can clarify? Okay.
Tyson (14:24.408)
Yeah. No, it was all gold. And I can say that with confidence because as I said, I'm relatively new in terms of developing an understanding of why we do what we do on what days. And so like everything you said there clicks so well, especially the part about the overloading of the muscle. So a little background for you. I got back into competitive running about two years ago after eight years away from competitive running. And during my career, I never had injury.
Victoria (14:38.307)
Mmm.
Victoria (14:50.413)
awesome.
Tyson (14:53.324)
I just didn't have any injuries really, nothing to speak of. And so I think my knowledge around injury prevention and overloading was really limited just by nature of being quite lucky. And so when I got back into training after I was still running and keeping fit, I was like, this is how I train. And I went back out and I was like Tuesday's mile reps and you know what it, and after about a month I strained my calf and I was like, that's odd, like it must be my shoes. Anyway, I went on this really long journey.
Victoria (15:20.173)
Yep.
Tyson (15:22.786)
Went and spoke to a PT here near my place and he said, he just explained the calf weakness factor, the load that was going through it as you've touched on. And he said, what would be really beneficial to you is as you return to running and gradually build up the miles that you run, focus on incorporating some heavier lifting through those calves. But what happened was I gradually improved my calf strength, but then training for a marathon, the one thing he'd said to me is like really put intensity through the calves.
And so as my marathon volume increased, the percentage that I was lifting in terms of weight at the gym decreased. But for whatever reason, my dumb brain was like, no, no, but keep putting weight through the calves. And so like one of my biggest issues was I remember, yeah, I had a hard session on Thursday. I went to the gym on a Friday and I was light everywhere. I was heavy through the calves. Bit of a tight thing on Saturday, which was kind of normal Sunday it went. And then
Victoria (16:04.364)
Yep. That's a lot. Yeah.
Tyson (16:19.64)
So it just seems there's so many moving parts, but I mean, if I could just put an asterisk next to that for any of the listeners, it's something that I wish I had highlighted a little more clearly with my own running was you don't need to be a hero in every element of your running and taking consideration to the volume that you're running, yeah, needs to be accounted for in the gym. like, have you got any general rules as you move throughout the phases of season, like whether it's pre-season or off-season?
towards the buildup to marathon race as to what we actually do in the gym in terms of reduction of weight or reps or whatever we might say.
Victoria (16:54.766)
Absolutely. yeah, so if we're talking mainly about, let's start with the off season, right? Or the pre-season, however you want to call it. The season that you're spending more time in strength mode and maybe less time in running mode because you don't have, you're not actively marathon trading. Let's say that. So again, if we have this analogy of December marathon, you're now in January. Okay. The next, I would say at least 12 weeks.
are going to be more dedicated towards strength training. That doesn't mean you're not running, right? Doesn't mean you have to completely X all the running. doesn't mean you have to complete. You never do a speed workout. It just means your focus is more on strength training. So you're just a little bit more cautious with your runs. You're not running your highest mileage weeks. I don't know why you would do that if you're, you know, 12 months away from a marathon anyways, but
Just for anyone listening, please don't do that. It's also really good, by the way, to vary your training. So it's really good to do this before an active race training cycle as well, just for the benefit of that her body's really like variety. They like doing a lot of different things. And I'm talking to you specifically runners, because I feel like other sports are not like this. Like you have sports like tennis where, you you're working your upper body, your lower body, you have a lot of variety and movements. You do not have that with running. You're doing...
basically one movement repeatedly for 26.2 plus miles, right? So that's really, really hard for our muscular system and our skeletal system, especially, so we can get into like the bone stress injury conversation. However, that's why it's good to not just race a marathon every, you know, four to six months. Taking some time to build variety into your calendar is a really good idea. So if we're talking about
Tyson (18:36.452)
Thank
Victoria (18:43.362)
the preseason off season strength part of this, right? This is when your strength training comes first. So I typically tell runners, if you're, if you're still running five days per week and you have to double up on your running and strength days, maybe in this season, your strength training first, and then you're going out for your run later in the day. So you're basically prioritizing the thing where you're like, I want to load this a little bit more. My run's still going to be fine, or I'm still maybe going to do a workout, but I'm
first starting with on fresh legs with my strength training because that's what I'm trying to prioritize. I want to build my calf, calf complex. I want to get stronger. I don't want to get injured for my marathon training cycle. That's usually what leads people to strength train. It's that injury prevention piece of it. So, so yeah, so you want to prioritize that strength training that will come first. And typically we're looking at those more foundational double leg movements. Okay. So that's when I said squatting heavy,
deadlifting, heavy, calf raising, heavy, right? So we're not necessarily, people like to term the term running specific exercises and we can talk about like single leg, all that. I like to do that as we get closer to the race. So a lot of elite, a lot of professional athletes follow the same rhythm too. It's like you are a little bit less specific, less close to the specific...
activity that you're training towards in the beginning of the season. So that's when you're working on those power, big, heavy movements. And then as you get closer to race day, which is maybe something that you could have benefited from as you're getting closer to marathon training, you're not lifting as heavy, but maybe it's more running specific for those that can't see me. I don't know if this is video, I'm air quoting that. So I can explain why that's an air quotes, but running specific means like single leg, maybe some of those like,
Tyson (20:26.879)
Thanks.
Victoria (20:35.79)
crazy movements you'll see on social media, things like that. But in the beginning, that's when we're really working on emphasis on heavy, because heavy means building strength. We actually want to make a change in our muscular system. And the only way to do that as we progress through a strength program is by adding weight and lifting heavy. So that's really what we're starting with at least 12 weeks. I'd say even for some 16 weeks.
And then moving from there, if you're going to be starting an active marathon training cycle, you take a lot of those foundations and you make them a little bit more running specific. So instead of a double leg squat, heavy with a barbell, you're now doing a single leg squat with a dumbbell. Just to give you an idea.
Tyson (21:19.832)
Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. You touched on the skeleton and bone stress injuries. It sounds like that off season would be an opportunity where we're really investing in not just muscular strength, but that, that bone density strength, our body to be able to handle that load. Like you able to speak to that for a moment. Cause I find that is a really interesting, not just the running longevity in general, just health and wellbeing. I'm at a fascinating topic.
Victoria (21:26.136)
Mmm.
Victoria (21:33.166)
100%.
Victoria (21:39.438)
Absolutely, yes, yes, yes. So bones, like I mentioned, bones really like variety. They like change in direction. So that's why you'll hear a lot of people say as our bones are developing, especially for our kids, as they're growing up, you put them in a lot of different types of sports, right? So they're changing directions, they're making quick movements.
Our bones really like to do that. And our bones also like when our muscles are strong. So that's a benefit of also going through that strength phase. But specifically when we're talking about bone health and like specific exercises, we're going to be talking more about plyometrics. So a lot of those jumping type of exercises, jumping up and down, jumping side to side, jumping in multi-plane, multi-directions, fast type of jumping specifically for runners. Because again, what we're doing when we're running is a lot of that kind of, especially when we're marathon training,
I'm not talking about like 100 meter dash, I'm talking about 26.2 miles. We're doing a lot of that almost like lower load, thousands of steps per mile that our bones don't really love to do all of the time. So we need to give them that variety and that's typically done through the strength training. So like I said, multi-directional jumping and hopping is the best way to do that and that's absolutely should be part of the strength program throughout the year.
in my opinion.
Tyson (23:05.796)
That's awesome. I've never really thought about the multi-directional stuff being beneficial to an athlete who's running in a straight line. And around the foundational exercises, which we spoke about at the outset, like is that something that is incorporated with, I think you just said this, I might've slipped through, so correct me if I'm wrong, but you're incorporating these agility style exercises in and around those other exercises from week to week. Yeah, okay.
Victoria (23:10.211)
Mmm.
Victoria (23:13.72)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria (23:28.226)
Yep, exactly. So typically we would start with the plyometrics. Like it would almost kind of be, I see it sometimes as like a drill that you start before the heavy lifts. So drills can be like pogo hops, single leg pogo hops. I'm sure you've done like A skips, B skips, all of that type of stuff. And then getting into the heavy lifting after that. Yeah.
Tyson (23:51.812)
Yeah, awesome. Okay, and so like an average session, if you were to go to the gym, say we did take up that advice and go, all right, Victoria recommended two to four sessions, I'll start with two, roughly how many exercises are we looking at getting done throughout the course of a session like that? like, time's a factor. I know some people, I don't have an hour and a half, I don't have an hour. I notice from time to time, I'll probably spend 45 minutes from start to finish in a lot of my gym sessions. I, like you, I do.
Victoria (24:17.187)
Yeah.
Tyson (24:19.586)
I do two strength sessions at the moment in the gym. And I don't know if you know, move with Nicole on YouTube, but she's like Pilates instructor. And I find that just humbling. Being a bit here in the gym and then trying to do a move with Nicole session and realising I can't lift my leg sideways without almost crying. And so anyway, I've gone on a tangent, but the question was like that roughly time and number of exercises in that time.
Victoria (24:25.058)
Yeah, fantastic.
Victoria (24:30.978)
Ha ha ha.
Victoria (24:36.652)
you
Victoria (24:42.028)
Yeah.
often think this is the biggest reason that keeps people from strength training, specifically runners, because I think we tend to equate strength with running. And it's like, well, I don't have time to just add an extra two hours to my week. I'm already running an hour every single day. And it's like, you actually really don't have to spend that much time on strength training. again, typically I see runners, I think it's just the way that we are. We like to do a lot of
what we're doing in order to almost like feel like we're doing something. So this is a conversation I often have with runners is your strength training is not going to feel like you're running. Like you're, are not going to end a strength training session covered in sweat, feeling like you are so physically fatigued. And if you do, you might actually be doing the wrong type of strength training, which is more like cardio hit based, right? We don't need another cardio session. Cardio is what we do when we're running.
We need to be actually like targeting our muscular system to build strength. So building strength means again, heavy lifts only like two to three. if we literally look at like a textbook definition of how to build strength in a muscle, it's like two to three sets for six to eight reps with breaks in between. And you should feel, you should use a weight that's heavy enough.
where you feel like you only have one or two repetitions left in reserve by the end of it. So most people pick up a bar or pick up a weight and they're like doing five sets of a hundred. mean, that's obviously an exaggeration, but like for runners, they're like, well, I'm doing, you know, a thousand plus steps a mile. So I have to do a thousand repetitions of this one exercise. Again, this is not your running. We actually want to do something that's different for our body because we do so much of the running already.
Tyson (26:23.02)
Yeah.
Victoria (26:39.266)
We need to give our body variety and we need to make a change in a different way. Right? So that's why you really, it's not going to take you that long. Two to three sets, six to eight reps with a heavy, heavy weight to the point where you're like, I probably couldn't lift this another two times, right? If I had to. So that's the first thing you want to ask yourself. Now, in terms of the amount of exercises, again, you're not spending that much time with a hundred different types of exercises.
The best strength plan has about one to two main exercises. So by main, I mean squat, deadlift, lunge, step up, like the big muscles that you're targeting, the hip, the knee, like those big areas that are important as a runner. So main complex exercises, you only need one or two in a strength session. So I typically do like a squat and a deadlift or like a step up and a hip thrust, something like that.
And then two to five accessory exercises. So by accessory, mean calf raises, something that's a little bit more isolating with a muscle. know, with the calf raise, we're typically only targeting the calf muscle versus a squat, we're targeting the quad gluten hamstrings. Do see how that's a little bit different? Or, you know, like a side plank, we're targeting the outer hip, your outer hip strength. So that's, I consider like an accessory type of exercise. Upper body, would.
classify as accessory in terms of runners. So again, like two to five of those exercises. So six or seven exercises per strength session and very little sets and reps, right? So really my strength takes me about 30 to 45 minutes. I don't think I've ever gone over 45 minutes. I honestly get bored of it if I do. But most of that time I think people don't realize is also spent resting.
Tyson (28:13.271)
Awesome.
Victoria (28:30.542)
and I think runners are really bad at that. We're used to just like going, going, going, and it's actually really beneficial to like do one set of a heavy squat and then step back and take a rest and actually rest because that is how your muscles are going to recover and build. So.
Tyson (28:47.096)
Yeah. And did you mention rest time between those heavier exercises?
Victoria (28:50.924)
Yes, I would say about 30 seconds to two minutes. That's like typically around the rest time that you want. Again, longer for heavier. So for those main lifts, you wanna be closer to that two minute mark. For the accessory type of exercises, you could break for like 30 seconds and be okay.
Tyson (29:09.058)
that makes so much sense. And you mentioned earlier, just about, okay, so obviously it goes without saying that it's a predominantly leg-based sport. We're hopping essentially. And when you're working around those two main exercises in a gym session, what percentage of that would you recommend? Like there, was it the external or the other exercises that you're saying should be focused on the lower body versus the upper body and the benefit of the upper body? Cause this is a question that I get quite a lot. don't know why, because I'm
Victoria (29:27.32)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria (29:34.488)
Good question.
Tyson (29:36.676)
pretty vocal about the fact that strength is not my forte. The one thing that I'm really curious about, as I said, get asked is when it comes to upper body work, is it important? Why should we do it? Is it of any value to runners? From a core perspective, I mean, it seems to make sense if you're working on your torso and things, but a lot of the time when people start looking at shoulders, triceps, biceps, you go, okay, how much value is this really adding when it's not beach season?
Victoria (29:39.784)
Hahaha
Victoria (30:02.862)
It has enough value for you to put it in your strength program. I'll say it that way, right? It's not the most important piece. I'm not going to lie to you, right? I'm not going to say that you should be doing upper body over your lower body. That just doesn't make sense for how the energy is distributed. However, I do at least one or two upper body exercises per strength routine. So it's important, right? And especially, I see it more for...
almost as like that is the extra percent that a lot of the elites can go after. Like, I really wonder how many elite runners can do like a pull-up or a push-up or a couple push-ups even. I hope it's quite a few of them because I think there's a lot of value in that. And the reason that is, is let me say it in a way that runners will understand. Have you ever gone on a long run and like at the end, you almost feel like your shoulders are kind of rolled forward and like you're not able to like lift up your chest and it's almost makes
breathing harder because your muscles are tired. Like that's just generally what happens. Imagine if you had that strength in your upper body to hold that posture that makes you more efficient, that allows you to push further with every step instead of collapsing down, right? Having that strength in your upper body, in your chest and your upper shoulders, that is extremely valuable from an efficiency standpoint.
Tyson (31:23.939)
Yeah.
Victoria (31:24.3)
So that's what's going to make you faster. That's what's going to allow you to run farther without fatiguing as easily. you know, I'm not, I am not a run coach that is super crazy and nitpicky about form in particular. However, when we're talking about fatigue and what you look like at the beginning of the race versus the end of the race, I see so many runners who almost just like hunch over. When you're hunched over, you can't take a proper breath.
Right? Like that completely affects your breathing ability as well. So upper body is really meant to almost allow your lower body to do what it needs to do efficiently.
Tyson (32:06.922)
Really good point. The other thing that I find interesting is the amount that the fear or what do say, maybe not fear. People are worried they're going to put on too much size to be able to maximise their potential as a runner. So as I mentioned, like I was outside, I promised my wife when I finished competitive running, I would hit the gym to an extent where my ribs weren't visible for a couple of years. Do you know what mean? I said, I'll put on some size because you had this marathon body for a while and you deserve better. so I got into the gym more.
Victoria (32:18.414)
Hmm.
Victoria (32:34.734)
you
Tyson (32:36.344)
started lifting quite heavy and that's kind of remained part of my workout routine for that last eight years and beyond. But in that time, I don't know pounds, but I went from like 68 kilos and now I'm about 76 kilos. I can do the conversion if you want. One thing I've noticed is even as I've started to increase my running volume, my weight hasn't really dropped.
Victoria (32:52.418)
Yeah, no, that's okay.
Victoria (33:00.906)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Tyson (33:02.5)
And so I know I look at old photos of me and I've definitely got more muscle on my frame than I used to. But now I'm starting to train to run more competitive marathons. go, okay, like obviously it seems as though it would be beneficial for me to maybe lose a little of that muscle mass. good.
Victoria (33:17.186)
I disagree. I disagree, actually. I think, number one, we have to recognize that the sport of running has had a problem with thinness and body composition. I think it's really taken a long time for the running community. I still don't think we're there, by the way, when it comes to nutrition and proper nutrition. And I think it's held us back for a very long amount of time because of these really old school
thoughts about you know thin thinner equals faster and when we're talking about you know 500 pounds versus 200 pounds like that's a different story right that we're not talking about that We're talking about 200 pounds versus 180 pounds, right and that 20 pounds is muscle that muscle is gonna help you More generate more power out of your stride than dropping that will
So that's actually going to make you a much faster, much more powerful runner. So the idea that we have to kind of like slim down in order to become a distance athlete is I think extremely, number one, harmful because then again, it almost puts you in this like dieting mindset, which if you're cutting carbs, we know at this point, carbs are extremely beneficial for long distance running. Like they're going to help you.
get past that finish line, especially for marathons. And then you're losing that your muscular system, which is the powerhouse of your stride. So I think a lot of it, I think a lot of the idea that like, oh, well, if I start lifting weights, I'm going to bulk up. First of all, do we know how hard it is? Like bodybuilders, they, they are in the gym 24 seven. Like they are, they train so hard to look like that. Like the 30 to 45 minutes, twice a week that you're doing.
Tyson (35:01.284)
Bye.
Victoria (35:12.074)
is not going to be so much that you like completely change the way that you look. You might add a couple pounds of muscle, but in my opinion, that's necessary. That's a necessary change in order to strive for the goals that you want to be hitting. Now, am I saying this is going to be your best year yet? I don't know. So many factors go into that. However, just from the simple fact of how we know how our bodies work, muscle mass is a good thing. It's going to make you faster.
You don't want to trim that off. So lifting heavy is only a beneficial thing.
Tyson (35:44.088)
Yeah.
Tyson (35:47.736)
really interesting. That might be like a, as you were saying that I was thinking like as an entry to the sport, that could be a real put off for someone who's worried about body composition. But when you get to like the more pointy end of competition, there seems to be like a natural tendency amongst the world's best runners just to be a little thinner. So is that like a, would you say that that's a different realm or?
Victoria (35:55.182)
100%.
Victoria (36:07.904)
So number one, think distance running in general, like as your miles go up, it's going to slim you down. Right? And I think that's even why it's even more important for runners to build that strength in the gym and spend their time on it. But I think that's the visual that we have in our mind is like distance runners and thinness, but that's just because of the sport of distance running. Now, I think it will be interesting. I genuinely think in the next five to 10 years, we're going to see a lot of that muscle.
come up and those people are gonna be the ones who are crossing the finish line first. But I think again, even more so in the elite and the professional fields, I think they have been hit more than anyone with this idea that thinness equals fast. And we're just now in the year 2025, slowly starting to carve that out. So I think we still have these visuals because of this lifeline. mean, there's still coaches who are top professional coaches today who
Tyson (36:57.763)
Yeah
Victoria (37:06.328)
probably said five years ago, don't pick up that bagel after your run, right? Like genuinely, and that's a scary thought now, but we didn't have that knowledge then. So I understand. I was also someone who was in a competitive sport and especially as a female was continuously told to like control their food, right? So that's something that we haven't really let go of. And I think...
once we do is when we're gonna start to see those visuals changing. But it's still really important. Think about the amount of distance runners, and I'm talking specifically about Americans, I'm not so sure about other countries, but many of them have outright said that they have disordered eating tendencies. So many of them. So how can you build muscle and perform at your best when you're still in that mindset? So I think again,
Tyson (37:57.113)
Yeah.
Victoria (37:59.192)
We're gonna see it, but we also have to remember the running community especially, and I talk a lot about this on my social medias, we have been really affected by this narrative. And it's gonna take a long time to change that. But I think we're slowly starting to come through with it.
Tyson (38:11.406)
Yes.
For sure, I mean, it's an issue that's close to home for me, especially as a young guy, like I struggled a lot. I don't know what the, like I was seeing psychologists as like a 13 or 14 year old kid, cause was like, I recognized earlier, I thought when I got involved in running, might've even been before that, I noticed that the best runners in the world were these Kenyans and they were just like, they look like skin and bone. And so pretty much I developed an eating disorder that just got the grip on me for about two or three years.
Victoria (38:18.388)
Mm. Yes.
Victoria (38:25.15)
Ooh, yeah.
Victoria (38:35.48)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Tyson (38:41.284)
But I mean, it's really encouraging to hear someone like you speak about that with such confidence. Because I think that's, it sort of opens the doors as to who could take part in the sport successfully. And even as I was saying that at an elite level, think of, I'm not sure if you remember Chris Solinsky. He was like a US 10K, he was the record holder over 10K. It was maybe like 12 years ago.
Victoria (38:59.534)
maybe. Yeah.
Victoria (39:05.974)
Okay. Okay.
Tyson (39:07.822)
but you just google Chris Selinski 2659 and you see the frame that he was carrying around and you're like, okay, like this mixes things up for the world of distance running and the elite level of sport. mean, there's exceptions and so there's like standouts for everything. So anyone that comes to mind, cause I reckon he would bench press half of at least the college NFL players in the gym cause he was carrying a little bit. Are there any other things that just
Victoria (39:17.058)
Mmm. Yeah.
Victoria (39:30.594)
Awesome.
Yeah!
Tyson (39:36.888)
Do your head in stereotypes that is completely wrong when it comes to the world of strength. Anything that you find yourself saying time and time again like, no, that's not a thing or we need to focus on this.
Victoria (39:50.176)
Yes, I think it's the overpopularization of very bizarre, crazy exercises on social media. Like an exercise will go viral because it looks cool. And it's like, what is the purpose of that? You really don't need to be bending your body into these crazy positions that it wouldn't naturally go into.
Tyson (40:02.628)
Thank you.
Victoria (40:16.966)
and then people really, really trying to sell it off as like, you're actually targeting your glute strength. If you do, you know, if you put your leg out to the side and lift it and then bring it back and then your upper body's going up and to the side and whatever. And it's like, wait, what? Like, but you can also target your glute strength by doing a really heavy squat. And like, that's actually going to do a lot more for you than putting your body in this weird position that it's never going to go into. And like.
Tyson (40:31.598)
Thank
Victoria (40:46.434)
doing all this crazy stuff. So again, I'm very like, I very much believe that the foundation's first and then we can build off of that, right? And we don't have to over complicate everything. I think it actually distracts us from the main and most important points of things.
Tyson (41:05.988)
That's so funny. It is amazing to see just like some absolute glamour in tight shorts doing a ridiculous exercise. And it's like, I'm not 100 % sure if this has gone viral because of the exercise or what's going on. you know what I mean? Most of me is a wild beast. In terms of like, I've heard you speak a little bit about recovery and injury prevention. We've touched on injury prevention just through, you know, the nature of this kind of workout in our week.
Victoria (41:13.398)
Exactly.
Victoria (41:17.666)
Right, yeah, exactly. You always gotta question it, yeah. Yes.
Tyson (41:35.192)
around recovery just as a general rule, like I know we've touched on that with regards to our actual sessions. You got any food for thought around that that'd be beneficial to athletes trying to develop their running performance?
Victoria (41:39.011)
Yeah.
Victoria (41:48.28)
Yeah, I have literal food advice for you. Recovery consists of two things, proper nutrition and actual rest. So this is, guess, another pet peeve of mine. I see a lot of people going into those compression boots and like doing all these crazy things. And it's like, eat enough carbs, eat enough protein, go to sleep, sleep well, and actually rest. And guess what?
Tyson (41:51.327)
Yes.
Victoria (42:17.57)
That's recovery, right? Like we don't have to spend money on Theraguns and all of this stuff. Brands hate to see me coming for this reason. And that's why I don't do like sponsored posts on my Instagram because you you can make a lot of money that way, but it's also wasting a lot of people's money. So again, eat, sleep, maybe work on your mental health. Sometimes that's helpful too. And bam, recovery.
Tyson (42:45.518)
That's so good. The simplicity of it is actually something which is way overlooked, hey, because I don't know what it is about feeling as though you're achieving more when you're just doing it in a really complex way. It's mind boggling. But the truth is, I, in my own life, find it so much easier to stay consistent with the things that I've created simple routines for. And what you just said is, it's just incredibly true. Like, you have, when you say focusing on the macros, like in terms of diet,
Victoria (42:47.019)
Yeah.
Victoria (43:06.029)
Yeah.
Victoria (43:13.539)
Yeah.
Tyson (43:14.232)
You have specific, I know people are such different sizes, but as a general rule, are there any simple kind of targets that we should be trying to hit around those?
Victoria (43:22.722)
Well, I think typically when we're talking about nutrition, I just want to preface this by saying I'm not a registered dietitian, so very important to have this conversation if you are looking for actual advice. But I think the one thing that I have learned when it comes to nutrition, and again, as a former athlete, as someone who has also struggled with disordered eating, and as a runner of training for my next marathon coming up, protein's great, but carbs are more important.
So typically, especially when it comes to recovery, it's like two to one carbs to protein. And I think a lot of people focus on, recovery protein. Yeah, protein's important. Protein is important for your muscles to grow. But if you don't have enough carbs to replenish your body from a hard effort, specifically distance running, you're losing out on your recovery. And again, you're putting yourself in a position for increased risk of injury, specifically bone stress injuries. So carbs.
Carbs, carbs. I want to get a shirt that says carbs on it or self care and carbs because they really are, I mean, and again, I think it goes into the conversation we already had of society's pressure with thinness and its obsession, especially in the running community. And we have completely demonized carbohydrates and they are so necessary for performance, for recovery, for everything that we want. And we've just completely, it's like people can't eat bread anymore.
Tyson (44:22.482)
Yeah.
If you're not, then you're not.
Victoria (44:49.627)
it's like really scary. So yeah, I keep, I keep going back to that, but I think it's a very important point.
Tyson (44:55.972)
That's cool. What marathon have you got coming up?
Victoria (44:58.51)
I'm running the OC marathon in California in May. Yeah, May 4th. Yeah, I'm actually running the Houston half next weekend too. So I got a lot of fun things this spring. I'm excited. Yeah, I do. So my last marathon was 325, but it was not enough for Boston. So this time I'm probably aiming for like a 320.
Tyson (45:01.508)
When is the art in May?
Tyson (45:11.236)
Oh, you got some stuff going on. Have you got a goal time in the wand?
Tyson (45:19.289)
this.
Victoria (45:25.198)
but I'm also running another marathon in December. And by that time I will be 35 for the Boston Cut-Off. So I'm kind of just like, I'm hoping I hit somewhere around a 320 in OC and then hoping to repeat it again to have like a 10 minute buffer solidly for Boston, finally. Yes.
Tyson (45:42.402)
Yeah, come on, I'll stay posted on the results. That's exciting. Hey, I know you're prepared dinner and stuff. We spoke at the time about roughly how long we've got to leave you to cut your veggies and prepare a good meal for this evening. Speaking of nutrition, so I love you on that. And carbohydrates, especially carbohydrates. You have got such an awesome ability just to break down complex ideas in a way that are digestible.
Victoria (45:48.962)
Yes!
Victoria (45:56.672)
Yep, cutting veggies and carbohydrates. Yeah, especially carbohydrates.
Tyson (46:10.948)
Sometimes these conversations are so boring. you. Like, the energy that you bring to this conversation was so fun. As I was talking to you, I was thinking about the introduction to this show and I was like, mate, I can't wait to give a big pump up. Cause this is a, yeah, a little bit of life into these conversation goes a long way. So thanks for bringing that. Really appreciate it. It was one that I was really looking forward to having.
Victoria (46:14.126)
Ha
Victoria (46:31.65)
Thank you so much. I'm very happy to be here. I, as you can tell, am very passionate about this type of stuff. So if you ever want to have me back, I would be happy to chat all over again. I'm sure we could talk another hour more anyway, so I'm sorry I have to go.
Tyson (46:43.736)
Let's do it. You're going to regret that because I'm going to send you an email soon saying let's do it. But hey, Victoria, thanks again. That was so much fun.
Victoria (46:47.95)
I love it.
Thank you, Tyson.
Tyson (46:53.74)
Sweet, I'll cut that off there. Hey, you're a legend, that genuine-