I Met The Most Obsessed Man On The Internet

I'm joined by Zach Pogrob, entrepreneur and content creator with over 1.5M followers. We discuss how to build a loyal audience in 2024, the importance of associating your brand with a word, three business ideas you can steal, and so much more.

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Episode Timestamps

00:00 How to build an unforgettable brand
01:47 First business idea: Suffering as a service
03:05 What is the Run Cult?
15:24 Second business idea: Building agencies on the back of creators
22:09 Third business idea: A platform that helps creators get sponsors
25:28 Golden advice for creators and entrepreneurs
27:30 The importance of being authentic
31:37 Long-form vs short-form video
36:00 The future of online writers
38:19 Be strict with your message, flexible with the medium
39:52 The importance of associating your brand with a word
49:10 Zach’s biggest fears
55:10 Where to find Zach

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Creators & Guests

Host

GREG ISENBERG

I build internet communities and products for them. CEO: @latecheckoutplz, we're behind companies like @youneedarobot @boringmarketer @dispatchdesign etc.

What is The Startup Ideas Podcast?

Get your creative juices flowing with The Startup Ideas Podcast. Published twice a week, we bring you free startup ideas to inspire your next venture. Hosted by Greg Isenberg, CEO of Late Checkout and former advisor to Reddit and TikTok. Subscribe so you don't miss out.

For more startup ideas, we created a database of 30+ startup ideas you can take at https://gregisenberg.com/30startupideas

Zack Pogrob [00:00:00]:
I think this is the most underrated thing in the world for creators especially, and anyone trying to make anything, usually the best creators own one word or one specific phrase. Like Ryan Holiday owns stoicism. Jocko Willink, I think owns discipline. What happens is you repeat this word every single day and then people just start seeing it everywhere. Because you know what it is. When you give something a name, it gives someone like a lighthouse, right? Until then, it's just like air. But when you give someone a name, it becomes something they can go towards, something they can visualize, something thing they could stand by. And so there's that piece.

Zack Pogrob [00:00:27]:
There's like giving an actual name to your mission, your lifestyle, who you are, whatever it is.

Greg Isenberg [00:00:32]:
I have been looking forward to this one. The most interesting man on the Internet, Zach Pogrob. And I have a confession to make. I actually was going to cancel last minute this podcast recording because I woke up, had a headache, really wasn't feeling well. But you talk about obsession, and I've been seeing all your videos about running and just going hard and sleeping on the floor. And I looked in the mirror and I slapped myself in the face and I was like, what would Zach do? And of course, I'm looking forward to this. I'm not going to cancel it, right? I'm obsessed. I want to make this podcast amazing.

Greg Isenberg [00:01:16]:
I'm not going to cancel it. So what did I do? I had a couple of double espresso, popped a couple advils, worked out, steamed sauna, cold plunge, and then I just sat outside a little bit, had a little breakfast for like 30 minutes and completely changed my morning and day. And I've been feeling dope since. So you inspired me.

Zack Pogrob [00:01:42]:
Let's go. That is the obsessed lifestyle. It is unoptimization. It is almost embracing when you don't feel perfect, embracing when you don't have all the cards stacked with you and using that as motivation. It's huge. So good job, Greg. You're officially obsessed.

Greg Isenberg [00:01:59]:
I appreciate it. So on this podcast, we talk about different business ideas and different niches and trends. You prepared a few, which I think are fascinating. And I want to start with suffering as a service. What do you mean by that?

Zack Pogrob [00:02:22]:
Yeah, it's funny because it's almost like SAS, right? It's like the same type of acronym. I just think normal life has gotten so soft and easy. Uber eats to your apartment, go puff for deliveries. And that's why you see all these people doing tough modders, spartan races, ultramarathons. People are craving that type of discomfort that actually makes them feel alive. Even these dark retreats, like, in the last year, I don't know about you, but five people I know are like, oh, yeah, I just sat in darkness for a week to find myself. And you can position that however you want. That is suffering in some way.

Zack Pogrob [00:02:54]:
And it's like, I think you can get really creative with that. And I think it's a massive opportunity. You have to imagine just normal life is just going to get easier and easier. Right. We're going to have to do less and less so people will need more things like that. And so, honestly, it's a big part of what I'm doing. Like this run cult, I just started this run club. It's kind of like shared suffering, and I think that's why people like it.

Greg Isenberg [00:03:17]:
Can you talk about that for people who don't know, what is the run cult and why do you think it's taking off?

Zack Pogrob [00:03:25]:
Sure. So, yeah, if you've been on Instagram in the last year, you've probably seen run clubs taking off kind of all around the country. They're kind of like the new. They're like just this new trend that's happening in all these cities because people are getting into running. And I've been doing more and more running myself, getting really into it over the last year, have this audience, biggest on Instagram, and me and Hunter Weiss in the office were kind of talking, know, what type of community do we want? There's so many of these. And honestly, the week I launched it, which was like three or four weeks ago, it was one of those things. I didn't even decide it till the morning of. I'm just like, I need to do this.

Zack Pogrob [00:04:02]:
I came up with the perfect name the night before, the Perfect branding. Run cult. Every run club is called club Cult is like one letter off and a total different meaning. So it's just like, it goes from being, oh, hey, want to join this run club? To, hey, want to join this run cult? I just love it. And yeah, what it is is me and like 50 people every Monday morning meet. We run through the streets of Manhattan in the morning at 07:00 a.m. We do sprints at the end, and it's great. It was also the first time really testing my audience with an in person event, and it went really well.

Zack Pogrob [00:04:32]:
It's pretty cool for me. It's not really about me, and I kind of struggle with that. We could talk about that, too, because I know you're a big Community guy, but it was cool to give people a chance to enter the world of obsession that I write about, because that's kind of what it is, and it.

Greg Isenberg [00:04:45]:
Is suffering as a service in a lot of ways, right?

Zack Pogrob [00:04:49]:
100%. We do sprints. No run club does sprints. I literally make these people sprint for the first time in probably a decade, and they love it. Makes them feel alive, and that's why they keep coming back. Yeah.

Greg Isenberg [00:05:00]:
I've seen people talk about your run Cult as sort of like a Fight club 2.0.

Zack Pogrob [00:05:08]:
Yeah. I mean, before I launched it, I watched Fight Club every single night, like, 20 times in a row. I'm not joking just because I wanted the principles and the ethos to be in my brain. It's the same model. It's like Project Madman in Fight club. If you've seen the movie, it's like, start this thing where people, they have never seen this side of themselves, and now people, like, around the country are starting run cults. Kind of like what happened with Fight Club? I don't know. It's Cool.

Greg Isenberg [00:05:33]:
And what's the Business of the Cult? Do you plan on monetizing it?

Zack Pogrob [00:05:41]:
Yeah, so I plan on monetizing. What I'm doing in the running space as a whole is very partially Money driven. Build real companies in the space, and that is 100% a part of my vision, but I'm not thinking about that yet, really. I think there's a lot of opportunities. I think getting, like I said, like, 50 people totally aligned on a mission, wearing all black at Manhattan is special. There's a lot of different ways to monetize that, but overall, it's more just, like, it's a huge piece of the world. Right. The world I'm trying to build.

Zack Pogrob [00:06:12]:
And I don't know. I think there'll be really cool opportunities this year with it in terms of collaborations, obviously, you could do products and merch, but think, and we could talk about this more. I think the running space as a whole is massively wide open, and so that's where I think I'll make a lot of moves over the next year or two.

Greg Isenberg [00:06:29]:
So if you wanted to monetize it, what sort of ideas would you have for it?

Zack Pogrob [00:06:36]:
Yeah, one idea would be races. I think that'd be fun. So there's one kind of organization doing this, but they just kind of suck at social media, and so do, like, these put on races and charge a certain amount of money. That would be okay. I don't know if you'd make a ton of money from that. Probably make more money doing just like, really great quality merch with it. Could do that, could host events. I don't know.

Zack Pogrob [00:06:58]:
I haven't really thought about it that much.

Greg Isenberg [00:06:59]:
So, Rafa, do you know Rafa? It's a cycling apparel company. It's a bit high end. And basically the idea is you buy their merch, but they also have a yearly community, and you can pay, like, I don't know what it is. I think it's like $50 a year or something. And you pay for that and you get access to their London, New York, SF cycling events and meetups. So it's like, there's these communities, you join them and you get to race. And obviously, you're not going to show up to a Rafa IrL meetup wearing a Nike shirt. You're going to wear Rafa.

Greg Isenberg [00:07:43]:
So I think the combination of, like, I could see you just especially because of the black, by the way, I'm wearing black for you. I was wearing gray before and I was like, something's off here. I need to just throw change real quick. That's why I was late. And so I think that's a good. The fact that I put on black right now, if I had an obsessed sweater, I would be wearing it right now.

Zack Pogrob [00:08:10]:
Yeah, you cut out for a second. So you said that brand, it's like a clothing brand at its core, but they host. There's a type of membership where you get access to these races. So my better answer is, I'm kind of thinking as the run cult, as this. Here's how I'm thinking about the running space right now. For me, in terms of monetizing, it's. Run cult is one piece. Right.

Zack Pogrob [00:08:28]:
There's a massive opportunity, I think, in apparel. Right. I'm starting to do these races now, and I can't find anything I like, can't find any brands I like to wear just because of the ethos of the branding and the styles. So there's that piece, and then the third piece is like, coaching. I think one of my most viral tweets in the last year was every guy I know who's lifted for the last five years is getting into running now. And it is true, every single one of them. So there's like, the run cult, the apparel, and then some type of coaching, branded around this coaching programs, app, whatever, branded around this type of athlete. And that's really how I'm thinking about it is.

Zack Pogrob [00:09:06]:
So you've heard the term hybrid athlete, right?

Greg Isenberg [00:09:08]:
Yeah.

Zack Pogrob [00:09:08]:
Like the Nick Bear model kind of. Right? Yeah.

Greg Isenberg [00:09:10]:
He, like, made that explain that for people, because not everyone knows that.

Zack Pogrob [00:09:14]:
Yeah, so Nick Bear was a savage. He was in the army or marines, and he did Iron Man's, he did bodybuilding shows. He's run freak marathons. And he would consider himself the hybrid athlete, where he competes in strength competitions and endurance competitions like running and marathons. And that's become a huge thing on social media now. People, they do both. They run and they lift. I'm actually not interested in that at all.

Zack Pogrob [00:09:38]:
I have barely lifted in the last three months. I'm lifting a little bit, but I'm a runner. I'm a runner. That's all I care about. But I'm 200 pounds still. I'm a big boy still relatively in the running space, especially with the times I'm doing. And so I think there's a massive opportunity for me to build this new category of runner where it's like 180 to 200 pounds. A lot of them lifted for most of their young adulthood, but now they're getting into running and they need something to compete in, right? Because I think what Spartan does.

Zack Pogrob [00:10:06]:
And what. Have you heard of Hirox? Hirox is huge, man. Hirox is like the new crossfit for hybrid athletes. Basically. It's been around a while, but it's really blowing up. Every fitness influencer in Austin that I know is competing in this thing called high rocks. Anyway, I think there's this new opportunity to build this category for these ex lifters becoming runners to compete in doesn't really exist because these guys will never be Olympic marathoners. They'll really never get to like a 230 marathon, which is really fast, but they could still do something insane at their weight.

Zack Pogrob [00:10:39]:
You know what I mean? I genuinely think if I keep going, in two years, I'm going to be the fastest marathoner probably in the world, between like 180 to 200 pounds. Maybe it's like a big goal, but I'll be up there, and it would be sick if I could start this new category. And like you said, races, things like that, where it's designed for these types of people. I think if you could create something that people dedicate their life towards, that is unlimited monetization opportunities, and it's just sick.

Greg Isenberg [00:11:08]:
Totally. And I think you're thinking about it the right way, which is you're not forcing monetization. That's a mistake a lot of people make, is they'll build a community, they'll build a movement, and they'll start with monetization right away. And it's just like, you're building something special. And it's a toddler, it's not an adult, it doesn't know what it wants to be yet.

Zack Pogrob [00:11:34]:
I like that a lot. That's a good analogy. Yeah.

Greg Isenberg [00:11:36]:
Well, I think you struck a chord with this pain as a service, this idea around a new category of runner, like the why now? It's very important to ask yourself, why now? Why should this movement exist? And I think there's a lot of reasons why. And I think if I were you, I would be like, okay, how do I introduce as much pain as possible over the next twelve months? Prove out New York City. And the truth is New York City. Pretty sure New York City has a bigger gdp than Canada, I believe. So if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere, right? So there's so much opportunity, I think ten plus million people that I would just focus on pain and New York City.

Zack Pogrob [00:12:37]:
Like double down on the double down. The thing that people like it for. Yeah, that's the thing. We kind of debate like the cult branding because it's so divisive. We don't get that many girls that are run cult. Right? And some of the guys like girls, I guess, but I'm like, no, that's the whole magic of it. It is a cult. It is hard.

Zack Pogrob [00:12:56]:
It wouldn't work if you changed the name. So I like that. I will. More pain, more pain to the world.

Greg Isenberg [00:13:03]:
More pain, more gain. No, I think there's so many sister, brother painful ideas that you could apply.

Zack Pogrob [00:13:16]:
I was watching this thing, there's a wild called. This is especially true in like the ultramarathon game that was watching this thing. If you want to Google, it's a sick documentary called the Barclay Marathons. And I don't know how much you'll see on Google, but it's a great documentary. It's just this random dude in the middle of Tennessee puts on this 100 miles race, right? And to get through it, there's no route. You make your own route. And you have to collect like book pages from trees. You have to collect pages from books, tape to trees to prove you've been on it.

Zack Pogrob [00:13:46]:
It's wild. So I think there's so much I could do with imagine a dark place ultramarathon series. I think that is going to stuff like that could be.

Greg Isenberg [00:13:55]:
So, uh, I googled it and the first thing that came up was a New York Times article that said, life isn't fair. He didn't want this race to be either.

Zack Pogrob [00:14:07]:
It reminded me of the thing from did you ever see, like that haunted house, McKinsey Manor, I think it's called. It's just this dude in New Jersey who people sign up to get tortured by him and it's just a dude in a house. Anyway, that's another weird YouTube rabbit hole.

Greg Isenberg [00:14:22]:
Well, I think the trend that you're talking about, which is basically that people need to feel something, is a really important thing to note. I'm in a group chat, and someone in the group chat this morning wrote, I just bought some bitcoin and ethereum. And then someone else wrote, why? And then he writes, just to feel something.

Zack Pogrob [00:14:52]:
It's true. I mean, I feel like that's why people got so addicted to crypto a few years ago. It was just so emotional.

Greg Isenberg [00:14:58]:
Yeah. So I think if you can reverse engineer feelings, that's a good prompt for how to create. And you talk about this a lot. A movement versus a business.

Zack Pogrob [00:15:15]:
Yeah, I like that.

Greg Isenberg [00:15:17]:
Let's move to agencies on the back of creators. What's interesting about that to you?

Zack Pogrob [00:15:25]:
Well, I have one now. It's pretty cool. It's called vids. It's mostly right now for the animations that I've done on my page. Kind of how I blew up my content last year. I think I gained like 2 million followers in six months from making those animations. Just like crazy numbers. And when it works well, that model is sick for someone like me, where you have talented operators on the back end helping build it.

Zack Pogrob [00:15:48]:
Right. I've never built real businesses yet built like, small businesses. So it's like, trust them, it depends. Right. I think creators either massively underestimate or massively overestimate the demand they have. Right. And I think I was in the underestimating camp. Like underestimating how many leads I drove from promoting something.

Zack Pogrob [00:16:10]:
So it's like finding those creators who are underestimating it versus the overestimating. Right. Because I think more and more creators would sign up for something like this. To be fair, maybe there's not that many that have a big enough audience, but I think there's still enough. And I think if you can package a creator's journey and obsession into a service, it can be pretty cool. I still think it's a good opportunity.

Greg Isenberg [00:16:33]:
How much does it cost to work with you? What is the product you. Are you running the agency? Is my other.

Zack Pogrob [00:16:43]:
I personally. Yeah, no, no. There's an operator, his name is Jordan, running the whole thing. I'm involved still because it's still pretty new. We have a few different tiers. I think the lowest is like 3500, up to like 7500 and then a little more if the package gets crazy. And, yeah, it's just like set video, deliverables. Basically, you get me involved as a creative director, basically, where I'm looking over all the design, because that's what I'm obsessed with.

Zack Pogrob [00:17:08]:
And you also get my system for script writing because in my opinion, especially on short form. Also, I'm not trying to sell my agency right now. It's just like this.

Greg Isenberg [00:17:15]:
Okay, you're explaining it. You're explaining it.

Zack Pogrob [00:17:17]:
Yeah, I'm really not. There's a million needed agencies. Go choose one that you like. The scripts on these videos are everything. I genuinely think it's like 90% script writing for short form and really for content in general. Right. But, yeah, that's what it is. It's not complicated.

Zack Pogrob [00:17:35]:
There's a bunch of these agencies just trying to do a good job at it.

Greg Isenberg [00:17:38]:
I think zero to a million dollars revenue, it's a good cash flowing business. Maybe $2 million. I think where these businesses get way more interesting is when they turn into some sort of software product. So I'll give you an example. Not many people know this, but who tweet, which is a social media scheduling platform, has raised hundreds of millions of dollars. Multibillion dollar valuation actually came out of an agency called Invoke. So invoke was a social media agency in the mid 2000s when Twitter was just first coming out, and they realized that their clients needed tweet schedulers. So because they're working with social media clients, they're just like, okay, let's just go build it for ourselves so we can use it with clients.

Greg Isenberg [00:18:25]:
And then once they got like 20 clients using it, all of a sudden they spun it out, and then it became a separate business. They raised hundreds of millions of dollars, sort of. The rest is history. So I think with you and what you're doing, I think at the face of it, creator agency is like, I don't know, somewhat interesting. But what's more interesting is the insights that the creator has and the insights that the agency has so that you can productize that. Maybe it's software, maybe it's not software. It doesn't necessarily need to be software, but some productization. And people throw around the word productized services.

Greg Isenberg [00:19:00]:
I'm not talking about a productized service. I'm talking about a productized, scalable business. So I think that's where you can take your business.

Zack Pogrob [00:19:10]:
Yeah, I think you're right. And I also think, yeah, you're right. As a whole the agency thing is probably overrated for most people. It's just cool for me, which is.

Greg Isenberg [00:19:18]:
Why mean, it's because you have friends who are in that space too. Right? Hunter has an agency.

Zack Pogrob [00:19:26]:
That's Henry. And we basically all do now. Yeah, we all do. Basically. It's great. Yeah, you're right. It's probably, as a whole, super overrated for creators, but I think it's underrated for operators. I think it's a cool opportunity for the operator to start something cool.

Zack Pogrob [00:19:42]:
That's what I think. It's more. The opportunity is better.

Greg Isenberg [00:19:45]:
Yeah, start.

Zack Pogrob [00:19:46]:
I like what you're saying. And get what you're saying about software, though. Yeah, I like what you're saying. That's definitely the vision. That should be the vision.

Greg Isenberg [00:19:55]:
If you were to create software for a video agency, what would you create?

Zack Pogrob [00:20:01]:
I've wanted to create the software since I started making these videos. And I have some people who are trying. It just doesn't exist yet. It's just like, drop in a script and make an animated video. If you want to make that, message me. There's like people who can do like a 10% version of it. And it's probably pretty close with the AI stuff, to be fair. That would be the answer related to those videos.

Greg Isenberg [00:20:21]:
Yeah, I feel like that idea is a huge idea, which is basically, it feels like every four or six months there's like a new format for short form video. And you've been, to your credit, you've been always feels like always inventing it or popularizing it a lot of ways.

Zack Pogrob [00:20:40]:
Only like one or two. Only like one or two only changed.

Greg Isenberg [00:20:43]:
The Internet, the history of the Internet once or twice.

Zack Pogrob [00:20:45]:
No big deal.

Greg Isenberg [00:20:46]:
So I think that's what creators should be thinking about is like productizing that part of their brain.

Zack Pogrob [00:20:54]:
It's just harder. It's just harder to build something like that.

Greg Isenberg [00:20:56]:
Oh, yeah, it's way harder.

Zack Pogrob [00:20:58]:
But you get better results.

Greg Isenberg [00:21:00]:
Yeah, and it's harder. And there's less instant gratification. You could send out a tweet, being like, hey, you wouldn't do this, but you could send out a tweet, be like, go to my landing page and book me. I've got two spots open for my video agency. And people would get that. Sign up in a second, and you'd make money in a second. It's way harder to build a suite of software, hire talented people, invest a bunch of money and charge $50 a month.

Zack Pogrob [00:21:33]:
That is way sicker, though, if you can do it. I agree.

Greg Isenberg [00:21:35]:
Yeah. So something for folks to think about. This was an interesting idea that you have the mid tier creators, passion fruit, but better. What did you mean by that?

Zack Pogrob [00:21:51]:
Have you used that platform at all? Do you know about it?

Greg Isenberg [00:21:54]:
Yeah, I've used the platform.

Zack Pogrob [00:21:56]:
I don't mean to shit on them, but it's actually great. And I've made money through the platform, but it felt kind of unusable. What's the right word? It's like chunky. It's like hard to use quickly, I feel like. So the mid tier of creators, right. These people are getting a good amount of inbound for sponsors and collaborations, right. They're not getting $100,000 deals, but they're getting a few every week interested or a few every month. They could make a living, let's say like a good living from sponsorships, but they have no idea what they're doing.

Zack Pogrob [00:22:27]:
This was basically me all last year, right. And I had to figure it all on my own. I think there's an opportunity there. I feel like now I'm kind of going beyond not to be cocky. I think I'm slowly getting away from that category where now I'm talking with bigger companies and bigger deals and I have people helping me. But this mid tier, I don't know how exactly you define it with metrics. It depends on the platform. But passion fruit, but better passion fruit, but it works.

Zack Pogrob [00:22:54]:
I think that's a massive opportunity, helping creators productize and not productize, but package their offerings. I think it's a big opportunity. I mean, a lot of people are trying to help me with it, sort of, and not necessarily the creators, but the operators to go in and build those businesses.

Greg Isenberg [00:23:10]:
Yeah. And here's a product I would love, which is, I would love to be a part of a group. Maybe it's less than 50 people, but a group of creators and operators, like invite only and having a team moderate to connect. Let's Zach with someone from, hey, it's like, hey, let's do a partnership with. And like, we did this thing for Mr.

Zack Pogrob [00:23:41]:
Beast.

Greg Isenberg [00:23:41]:
Let's go do for like, where does that mean?

Zack Pogrob [00:23:46]:
You're saying the operators for the. Yeah, it doesn't really. That's like, this is what should. Something like this should exist. I'm kind of talking with some people who are doing something like this. It's interesting. It's a good opportunity, I think.

Greg Isenberg [00:24:01]:
Yeah.

Zack Pogrob [00:24:01]:
If you could do it, though, you need to get connected with these people. And it's hard.

Greg Isenberg [00:24:05]:
Yeah, it's hard. Takes time and the trust isn't necessarily there. That's why I love the idea of having some person in the middle of it, sort of like, moderating it. Passion fruit is interesting in the sense that it's self serve. Anyone can go on there and you can book sponsorships. We have a newsletter called you probably need a robot.com. And for AI, productivity and people book ads. And it's awesome for us, but we don't have people being pitching us, like, oh, hey, you should do merch.

Greg Isenberg [00:24:40]:
You know what I mean? So I think having someone in between and connecting could be really interesting. So I do think that there's something on this idea. Dude, I gotta ask you. I listened to the founders podcast, so I heard you spoke to David Senra, and I want to know what he told you.

Zack Pogrob [00:25:00]:
Oh, yeah. This great piece of advice. He did a show in New York. It was awesome. And we hung out for a second before it. Yeah. He gave me this piece of advice that I've given to a dozen people when they want to start something, it's like, let's say you're a creator or you're an entrepreneur and you want to build this thing, right? You have this list of the five things that you should probably do. Like, if you're a creator, that's like, get your beehive newsletter.

Zack Pogrob [00:25:23]:
It's like, get a course going, get a carousel for Instagram, like all this stuff that is so, like the typical next steps. But usually the creators who have outlier success ignore all of those and they go do something else that's unique. So it's like the advice from him is take the five things that most people would do in this situation. Ignore them completely, actually write them down, ignore them completely, and then go do something else more unique and better. I think that's great advice to stand out, and it's so simple and tactical.

Greg Isenberg [00:25:51]:
Yeah. And I'm not surprised he has such good advice because he literally studies the world's best people.

Zack Pogrob [00:25:58]:
Exactly. He's great. You know, the advice he gave me, actually, because we were talking about monetizing. For me, the other piece of advice he gave me, which was great, when I was asking him, yeah, how should I make money from my community? The obsession stuff, he's like, just build a cult. That's what he said. And he was right, and that's literally what I did with the running. So it's like, I didn't really understand what he meant at the time, but now I do.

Greg Isenberg [00:26:19]:
I feel like it's so bothered just to be like, you ask a question, expecting a 1 hour podcast response, and he just says several words.

Zack Pogrob [00:26:29]:
But you know what? He's the type of guy, he's a smart dude. That was all I needed. That was actually the best answer. Yeah, I'm glad he didn't say anything else.

Greg Isenberg [00:26:38]:
Totally. Yeah. I need to understand that. So one person that you actually surfaced to me is a guy named Sam Sullick. And ever since I saw your tweet on him, it's just changed how I've seen the Internet, basically because I see it everywhere.

Zack Pogrob [00:27:00]:
Yeah, I was pretty relatively early to him, I think I treat shot of the mountain like summer, and now it's like you see him every day. Constantly.

Greg Isenberg [00:27:06]:
Every day. For folks who don't know about him, maybe explain a little bit and tell us why you think it's interesting and there's a trend around it.

Zack Pogrob [00:27:18]:
Yeah, sure. So he's like a 20 year old bodybuilder in Ohio, just ridiculously jacked, probably juiced up, almost definitely juiced up on steroids. And over the last year, in 2023, he went from like zero to, I don't know, what's he at? 2 million subscribers on YouTube, posting a long form video of him working out every single day. And basically, the reason it's caught the Internet's attention is, one, obviously the growth, but two is the type of content which is polar opposite to one. It's polar opposite in many ways, which usually is how you get these outlier results. One is it's the opposite of all fitness content. Fitness content. Bodybuilding content became all about lamborghinis and influencers and cars.

Zack Pogrob [00:27:58]:
He just went the total opposite way. I'm recording on a shitty iPhone that's cracked. I don't care about clothing, I don't care about anything. I don't care about money. I just want to lift. And then number two is, compared to YouTube content, which is the Mr. Beast, this is the thumbnail, the optimization, it's just. Nope, here's me on my iPhone's taped to a broken tripod.

Zack Pogrob [00:28:18]:
I'm just talking to the camera. One take, no edits, totally unedited and unoptimized. And because of that, it was exactly what people wanted. And I've put out a bunch of tweets about him because he's really inspiring what I'm doing now with the video and what I'm trying to do. And it's incredible to me what he's doing. And I think he honestly is like, part of this shift happening in content now towards that raw, authentic style. But for most people, doing that will be really hard.

Greg Isenberg [00:28:51]:
It's happening on Instagram, too. Like, you're putting out more handwritten notes on Instagram. And I think that's resonating with people more. I've put out some handwritten notes.

Zack Pogrob [00:29:02]:
Are you talking about the posts with the handwritten style?

Greg Isenberg [00:29:04]:
Yes.

Zack Pogrob [00:29:06]:
You're right. That's kind of an example of. It's more authentic than. So, for example, with those for that, I was just doing like tweets. It would show my Twitter and it would show my text, which is what most people do. And it's insane how much better the handwriting performs.

Greg Isenberg [00:29:22]:
Dude, literally, if people aren't watching this or they're listening to it, you need to watch the YouTube because I just saw the light bulb go off in your brain, which is like, oh, my God, he's right. The handwritten thing is the more amateur type thing.

Zack Pogrob [00:29:39]:
There's actually two things there. It is more amateur and authentic. Also, I don't handwrite those. It's actually just like font. But anyway, it's that and it's also removing your tweet. For Instagram, this is like a tactical thing that might be useful. I think removing your Twitter thing is so useful because Instagram posts, especially text, they get shared. They grow from people sharing on their stories.

Zack Pogrob [00:29:57]:
And most people don't want to share a quote with someone's little face. And Twitter at they want to share just text. So if you think about that logically, it makes a lot of sense. However, it's hard because from a design perspective, they're more used to seeing, okay, this is a whole nother thing. But the design of text posts on Instagram is super important and it's how I've grown my stuff. And it's like you have to make something that people can recognize instantly and you want the words to hit their brain instantly, right? So it's like for a tweet, they instantly know what that is and recognize it versus a handwriting post. If you choose the wrong font or the wrong style, you're fucked. And they're not going to be able to read it.

Zack Pogrob [00:30:33]:
They're just going to scroll. So it's like you have to make the handwriting style as easy to read as the tweet. Anyway, side tangent.

Greg Isenberg [00:30:41]:
No good tangent. A lot of people listening, including me, are trying to figure out how to grow their Instagram. I'll tell you a little something. I'm curious your perspective. I decided this week to go rogue. And I had an agency basically running my Instagram. They would clip up this pod occasionally I would do a direct to camera thing and they'd post it on Instagram and on YouTube shorts. And I didn't love.

Greg Isenberg [00:31:12]:
How do I say this respectfully?

Zack Pogrob [00:31:14]:
It was.

Greg Isenberg [00:31:16]:
It's just if I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it obsessively.

Zack Pogrob [00:31:22]:
In your words, that's the only way to grow on social media. I think that's the only way to actually grow is to be completely obsessed with it.

Greg Isenberg [00:31:29]:
And the reason I grew to 360,000 followers on Twitter was because I was obsessed with the content and I shared at the time. And still to this day, I try to share a unique point of view and take people behind the scenes and with Instagram specifically and YouTube shorts, I don't know. And it's just being honest with yourself. I don't know at this point how to use that short form, like cut up long form to make it work on short form. To me, I felt like that was a moment in time. I don't know, what are your thoughts? Like, if you were me, do you think it's a mistake that I'm not doing clips, short form clips?

Zack Pogrob [00:32:14]:
So you're not going to do any, or you're saying you're going to do a different.

Greg Isenberg [00:32:17]:
I'm going to double down on long form. That's basically what I'm saying.

Zack Pogrob [00:32:19]:
I'm doubling down on. I think that's smart. That's kind of what I'm trying to do now, right? I'm trying to take my Instagram audience to YouTube. I don't think that's wrong. I think it's hard to do what you were saying, which is like, take a long form piece of content, like a podcast, and put it into a reel. It's hard. Like you're going to post 100 clips and maybe one goes viral and the others just get ignored because people are tired of seeing podcast clips in their feed. Right? They are.

Zack Pogrob [00:32:43]:
So it's like, I think the better way to do it is just figure out content specific. Right? Like Twitter, you were just making tweets and that's why they did good threads. I don't know. I'm a big fan for Instagram. The way I view my stuff. I want to have the pretty highly produced edits of me running or the animations, and then on the other side, almost 50 50, have just me talking to the camera, no editing. Right. I think that's a good way to do it.

Zack Pogrob [00:33:07]:
I think you have the right mentality. Long form is, I mean, look, I'm in a unique situation. I only made short form content, really written content for like four years and then started doing video. And then after like a month of doing video, my life has completely changed. So I'm all in on the long form stuff.

Greg Isenberg [00:33:23]:
Yeah, I like long form too. I've also just noticed the people that listen or watch to watch long form.

Zack Pogrob [00:33:30]:
Are high quality people and high quality connection with you. Like, yeah, that's completely different.

Greg Isenberg [00:33:37]:
Completely different. So many people reach out, watch YouTube or listen to the podcast, and I.

Zack Pogrob [00:33:44]:
Want more of those people the way I've been explaining to people what I'm going through. And I think you understand this too. It's like your short form stuff builds trust, especially when you do it for years, right? You get a lot of trust by posting every day and showing up. But once you take that to a long form medium, you get the connection and the connection stacks on top of that trust and it is absolutely insane. Right? So, yeah, I'm with you.

Greg Isenberg [00:34:06]:
Yeah. Awareness and affinity. That's how I describe it. Short form is great for awareness and affinity is what you call it. Like the connection.

Zack Pogrob [00:34:19]:
Yeah, like an analogy I used the other week, sorry to interrupt you, is like, short form is like passing someone on the street, maybe say hi for a second. But it's a short interaction. And long form is like sitting down with them for dinner. It's like, oh, you're really getting to know them now. Dylan even had a better analogy with that. He's like Dylan Jarden. He's like, short form is on the street. You don't choose it, it just happens to you.

Zack Pogrob [00:34:40]:
Kind of like short form scrolling on a feed, but long form, you're choosing to meet someone, you're clicking on a video. It's totally different.

Greg Isenberg [00:34:47]:
Yeah. Super intentional, I think. Prediction. More creators go long form. Is that what you're thinking?

Zack Pogrob [00:34:57]:
Creators and especially think like, I think Danny Miranda put out this tweet how all these writers are now doing video, including how the other, I think, the online writer staple. That's kind of a meme now. Kind of like on Twitter. I think it's so overdone and overrated for almost everybody. And you can't make any money with it and you can't build a real brand and you can't build a real trust with your audience unless you're this super unicorn, which is like five people. And instead, I think it depends what you want to do.

Greg Isenberg [00:35:27]:
But explain that a bit. I'm curious, what do you mean by that? Why can't online writers do well on the Internet?

Zack Pogrob [00:35:35]:
Monetize well, on the Internet, I guess they can. I just think it's hard. I think it's hard. And I don't think people are good enough writers. I don't think most people are interesting enough. Like I said, I think for the unicorns you can. But look at even someone like Dan Co. Right? Dan Co.

Zack Pogrob [00:35:48]:
Has monetized pretty well, but I think a large piece of that is from his videos. He's crushing on YouTube. And that's why people connect with. It's like, I wouldn't even call him an online a. He's a writer and a youtuber, right? He sells writing courses, but he's basically a like. So that's what I mean. It's like there is like the Tim Urban's of the world and the James clears of the world. But outside of, there's think about the ones who build real businesses off of just the writing.

Zack Pogrob [00:36:13]:
Sure, there are some newsletter guys that I'm ignoring for sure, but for the kids starting up, even me, who has fucking like 2 million followers from writing, I don't really. I have followers that most of my followers came from taking my writing and putting it into videos. Right. So even though that's why I have this thing, I repeat over and over to people, it's like strict with the message, flexible with the medium. This is me, though. I don't want to just be a writer. That's why I'm out here running marathons. I want to do more than one thing.

Zack Pogrob [00:36:43]:
I want to build brands. I want to do that stuff. And for me to do that, I think I have to build my world of obsession into every single medium. And so it's like, take the core that works the writing, and put it into these new packages. I don't know. For me, that's really exciting. And I think that's how I'm going to do everything. Like I said, it depends on your goals.

Zack Pogrob [00:36:59]:
But I just think for most people, it's overrated.

Greg Isenberg [00:37:01]:
I guess my realization with all this is doing multiple formats at the same time is very difficult.

Zack Pogrob [00:37:13]:
You have to learn one first, kind of. You have to really get one first.

Greg Isenberg [00:37:16]:
Yeah, it's one at a. Like, my mistake was I was like, oh, I'm an online know, I write on Twitter and I have a newsletter. I could easily do podcasts, short form, long form, like a bunch of other TikTok Instagram shorts at the same time. And it took some awareness to basically be like, no, that's actually a bad idea. And I love that. Flexible with the format. Is that what you said flexible with the format.

Zack Pogrob [00:37:47]:
Yeah, that's what I did last year to make it super tactical. Last year, I didn't have those videos. Right. The animated videos that got hundreds of millions of views, and I didn't have obsession as a brand. So at the same time, I basically was like, all right, I'm going to commit to this one message, but I'm going to be super flexible with the medium that I use to get the message in front of more people. And that is, like, a thing that I don't think anyone does. Most people don't do either. But when you do both, what it got me is a ton of new fans and a ton of actual, true fans who will put obsession in their bio and come to my run cult.

Zack Pogrob [00:38:19]:
That's, like, one of my favorite ideas. I've came up with that strict, the message flexible with the medium.

Greg Isenberg [00:38:24]:
And you've talked to me about. I remember when we met in New York last year about the importance of having owning a word. Can you talk more about that?

Zack Pogrob [00:38:34]:
Yeah. I think this is the most underrated thing in the world for creators especially, and anyone trying to make anything, it's like the best people are constantly owning. Well, usually the best creators own one word or one specific phrase, right? Like Ryan Holiday owns stoicism. Jocko Willink, I think, owns discipline or maybe leadership also. He might own both of those. I think it's an extremely powerful way to build a brand because what happens is you repeat this word every single day, and then people just start seeing it everywhere. There's, like, a scientific phrase for that, especially on Twitter. It's a very powerful brainwashing platform.

Zack Pogrob [00:39:16]:
That's all I'm doing every day, is like brainwashing people to believe in obsession. And I think it's working. You can do it tastefully, though. Where, I don't know. You still follow me, right? I'm not that annoying. You can do it without being annoying because you know what it is. When you give something a name, it gives someone, like a lighthouse, right? Until then, it's just like air. But when you give someone a name, it becomes something they can go towards, something they can visualize, something they could stand by, something they could put in their bio, like mine.

Zack Pogrob [00:39:46]:
And so there's that piece. There's like giving an actual name to your mission, your lifestyle, who you are, whatever it is. Then there's also, I think you should be trying to name everything you do, right. The names are like the nodes that let people share your ideas. Without that, how do your ideas get shared. It's basically impossible. You're pretty good at this. You're actually really good at it.

Zack Pogrob [00:40:05]:
You're always coming up with shit like, what is it? Like, entrepreneur. You're great at naming, and so it's like, you get it, but a lot of people don't get this. And the challenge is it's very, I think, very hard, and it takes a long time.

Greg Isenberg [00:40:20]:
How do you come up with the name a good one?

Zack Pogrob [00:40:23]:
You have to put out a ridiculous amount of stuff and wait until it's completely obvious. That's the only answer, I think you have to wait until it's obvious in that other people love it. You love it, and no one else owns it. And then there's also the thin line of, you want a name that is unique, that you can still own it, but rare enough that. Sorry. Unique enough that you can own it, but common enough that it's still in culture. Right? Like, obsession is all over culture. It's behind all these guys, like Kobe and all these people.

Zack Pogrob [00:40:51]:
So it's like that balance. So it's those three things. You love it, they love it, and no one else has it super hard. But when I felt it, it was obvious. I started the obsession movement after a run. It just hit me, like, oh, my God, this is obvious. I need to tweet this. Like, who is obsessed? Put a black flag.

Zack Pogrob [00:41:07]:
If you're obsessed, put a black flag in your bio and across Twitter and Instagram. Like, thousands of people did it. I didn't plan that. There was no had, like, I had follow up session in my bio for, like, a year. So it was ruminating, but it was just, boom, obvious and did it, and it was a good choice. So that's what I'd say. It's like, start paying attention to the. I just said it, like, those three things.

Greg Isenberg [00:41:28]:
So it's so important. And that's why I think you're going to. I believe my prediction. Zach, you're going to be a household name in ten years, because ten years.

Zack Pogrob [00:41:39]:
That's a good timeline.

Greg Isenberg [00:41:40]:
Ten years.

Zack Pogrob [00:41:41]:
I want to do it. Is that your goal, too? Something like that.

Greg Isenberg [00:41:45]:
I don't know. We're talking about you right now.

Zack Pogrob [00:41:53]:
We could race. Let's race until we're on Oprah. Okay. Is that the bar?

Greg Isenberg [00:41:59]:
Maybe. Ellen, I think that when you pick a category of one and you name the category, which is what you're doing, and you consistently know how to leverage social platforms to create progress, and you show up every day as long as you're healthy. I just don't see how you don't make obsession every obsessed person's mission, and they're going to want to play it. I saw a really good tweet by Pascal de Silva, and he said, we need more Walt Disney's, less Elon Musk's.

Zack Pogrob [00:42:42]:
Who is that? Who tweeted that?

Greg Isenberg [00:42:44]:
Pascal de Silva.

Zack Pogrob [00:42:46]:
Who is that? That's a good tweet.

Greg Isenberg [00:42:49]:
It's a good tweet. Yeah. I think it only got, like, a few likes. Check it out.

Zack Pogrob [00:42:57]:
Yeah, because, I mean, that's exactly what I'm trying to do. Everyone's seen the Disney map. If you're listening to this, probably with all the different connected parts of their business. The core was just like, what was it? Like, animation films. Right. And at the core of mine is words about obsession. It's what I've done literally, since day one and will never stop doing. And as long as I do that, right, it will feed everything.

Zack Pogrob [00:43:17]:
I love that. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the thing. It's like when you stick to this one word, it compounds in the most insane way. Right. Because people instantly understand you who you've never met, and so they can explain you really easily. And that creates all these opportunities that happen behind you that you never see.

Zack Pogrob [00:43:34]:
It's like, oh, this is Zach. He's obsession. He's just trying to build the world of obsession. Everyone gets it instantly, and I've only been doing that for, really, a year. So imagine five years. Imagine ten.

Greg Isenberg [00:43:47]:
It compounds quick. You're right. The word of mouth on owning a word is massive. It's especially massive when you live in New York City and you're connected with other people who are know, a lot of people say, like, oh, okay, I'll just put it out there. I mostly work remote, but I think that if I lived in New York City or I lived in, you know, my movements would probably go quicker. And also, I should say that your friend group is an obsessed friend group from what, Dylan, Henry, all those guys. Right?

Zack Pogrob [00:44:25]:
Yeah. We basically live in the office. It's great.

Greg Isenberg [00:44:28]:
Yeah. I mean, you live the lifestyle. I think that if you're going to own a word, whatever word you're going to own, you need to live that lifestyle.

Zack Pogrob [00:44:35]:
Yeah. I mean, that's the most important. Have I have this path of obsession I've written about a little bit. It's like the seven steps that these guys, like, Arnold, Disney, they all go on. And I'm very much living it. I'm, like, almost halfway on it, and I have to. That's the only way it works. But the way this really works is this is actually important on owning a name.

Zack Pogrob [00:44:53]:
The reason it's actually so important is it lets you build something bigger than you, which is why people get followed in the first place. It's because they're doing something bigger than themselves. No one wants to hear people preach. No one wants to hear people who make it all about them. I made this 20 tweet the other day. I was running, and this girl stopped me on the street, and she just screams at me, obsessed, and keeps walking. And I said, I wonder if that girl even knows who I am. I wonder if she even knows my name or if she just knows obsession.

Zack Pogrob [00:45:20]:
I bet you there's a good chance she doesn't even know my name. She just remembers following me and seeing, like, obsession this, obsession that. Think about that, right? Think about that. Also, I don't get recognized that much. So that was crazy. And it's a perfect example. It's like it gives you this thing to build. That's not you anymore.

Zack Pogrob [00:45:37]:
It doesn't even have to be a brand. I don't monetize obsession really yet. Not really. So that is a super important but subtle but really important piece to it.

Greg Isenberg [00:45:47]:
Yeah. It's mind share. You're owning the mind share of obsession. It's worth a lot of money. Who else out there owns a word or owns a movement that you look up to? Just curious.

Zack Pogrob [00:46:02]:
It's tough. Like, the ones I said before are big examples. Ryan Holiday. Jocko is kind of like my role model for how he built his businesses. Just a quick mention, like, he crushed the art and he crushed the business. One guy on Twitter is great. This guy, Coltie bra. You ever see him?

Greg Isenberg [00:46:19]:
No.

Zack Pogrob [00:46:19]:
Colton, he's great. He's like one of these Twitter guys. Like Og, like money think. I think he is. He might not like me calling him that, but to me. To me, he kind of owns the word. Like misfit. Kind of talks about all these boxers eating like shit before their fights and still crushing it.

Zack Pogrob [00:46:35]:
I love that. To me, he kind of owns the word misfit. I don't know. Let me think. Who comes to my brain quickly. Okay. I think of cold tubs. I think of that guy on Instagram who does it every day and smashes the thing with a dumbbell.

Zack Pogrob [00:46:47]:
I think of him. He's kind of owning cold tubs to me. I think of wealth. I think of Sahil. I think he's trying to own that word that might just be from him texting me that, but I think he's doing a good job. Um, I don't know.

Greg Isenberg [00:47:00]:
That's Sahil Bloom for people.

Zack Pogrob [00:47:03]:
First name basis. Yeah, we're on the first name basis.

Greg Isenberg [00:47:05]:
Exactly. There's two types of people in this world. There's people who call Mr. Beast Mr. Beast, and there's people who call Mr. Beast Jimmy, which one are you?

Zack Pogrob [00:47:15]:
Listener. Exactly. That's one.

Greg Isenberg [00:47:19]:
Yeah. I want to end with this and I want you to be real with me. What's keeping you up at night? What are you fearful of? And try to be as honest as you can.

Zack Pogrob [00:47:32]:
Okay. What am I fearful of? That's, like, the real question, right?

Greg Isenberg [00:47:35]:
Yes. Because I'll give you a second to think about it from the outside. And I love following you from the outside. It looks like this guy has everything together. He's doing all the right things. He's building up these assets. He's building a category of one. He's in this cool friend.

Greg Isenberg [00:47:55]:
Know he's living in New York City. He's at the center of it. But what's really keeping you up at night? What do you fear?

Zack Pogrob [00:48:00]:
Um, it's definitely not that. Does it look like that? I guess it kind of looks like that. I've tried to be more open with how reckless my life is, though. I did sleep in the office for, like, two weeks because I had to. And what's actually keeping me up at night is YouTube, because I'm not sleeping that much because of it. I'm getting better now, though. That was, like, a rough two weeks. The fear for me is two things, I think.

Zack Pogrob [00:48:20]:
It's one, I choose the wrong opportunities to build first. Right? Because now it's basically like, all right, what do I build first? That's really the question. It's I choose the wrong opportunities and it messes up what I'm building. That scares me. I don't know. Number two is, I guess I burn out because I genuinely unlocked a new part of myself about four weeks ago, five weeks ago, for a lot of reasons. And one was like, starting the daily videos, just like, committing to something extreme like that was exactly what I needed, unlocked a new part of me. So I think there is a fear of burning out if I can't keep going.

Zack Pogrob [00:48:52]:
But I don't think that will happen. I feel like this is not obsession. You don't burn out. I don't know. This is just me being honest. I'm afraid of getting hurt. If I get hurt, I can't really do the running thing, which is going to be like, that's like a massive part of everything I want to build over the next 510 years. That will be hard.

Zack Pogrob [00:49:08]:
It's really, like the first thing, I think the biggest worry right now. I'm still trying to figure it out. I need to make more money to make the stuff I want to make. It's that simple. I want to hire a videographer right now, a videographer is not free, so I have to go get that money somewhere. It's like, how do I go get that money? It's like doing the right things, because I think I said yes to opportunities last year, especially in terms of brand sponsorships. That really put me back in terms of, like, I had this compounding thing going with my content, and it just stopped me.

Greg Isenberg [00:49:40]:
That's the fear, I think, on the money piece. I once heard this concept called mailbox money that I like using, which is, how do you have a project or a set of projects that every day, every week, every couple of weeks, you just have your bills paid for so that you can do the thing that you really want to be doing. It hits the mailbox every single day or every single week.

Zack Pogrob [00:50:06]:
I love that. I never had that, really? I have that with the agency now. That's kind of, like, why I wanted to start it.

Greg Isenberg [00:50:11]:
Yeah. So I think you're starting to see a lot more people interested in cash flow. Portfolio of cash flowing businesses. AI is definitely going to. If it speeds up software creation, which it is, I think there's tons of opportunity to create mailbox money projects, and that's, like, case in point, who owns the term mailbox money, right?

Zack Pogrob [00:50:37]:
I never heard the term. It's so great, though. That should be a book, 100%. That should be a book on building those. You should build it. Maybe you should make it. That should be a book or a course. You should go take that.

Zack Pogrob [00:50:49]:
Did you come up with that?

Greg Isenberg [00:50:50]:
Someone once told me it actually, forget that.

Zack Pogrob [00:50:53]:
It's your turn.

Greg Isenberg [00:50:55]:
The person that told me it, I'll give credit, is the actually co founder of Hootsweet, Dario Melly. He was the one. He was like, I was telling him about a project I was involved in and how it was just, like, paying me monthly and kind of, like, covering my bills. And he was like, oh, you're talking about mailbox money? I was like, what are you talking about, mailbox money? I was like, no, it's like, this project, and he's like, yeah, it covers your bills. You don't have to worry about your bills.

Zack Pogrob [00:51:25]:
Yeah, it's amazing. I never really had that in my life. My first business was basically a service. People only book once, which is kind of the worst type of service. Mailbox money is the goal. Mailbox money is sick.

Greg Isenberg [00:51:37]:
Yeah. And I think for a lot of folks, their full time job is their mailbox money.

Zack Pogrob [00:51:43]:
True.

Greg Isenberg [00:51:43]:
And the problem is it's difficult. I don't know about you, but it was hard for me. When I've had jobs in my life, it was hard for me to create projects. On top of it, I obsess like you, and if I'm working on something, I'm all in. So it's hard to do a lot of side projects. So I think that's the tough part about having a job.

Zack Pogrob [00:52:10]:
Yeah, I never had a job, but probably because I'm obsessed. I would rather just have no money and not sleep and have a job. But yeah, I don't know. That's just me not saying I recommend it.

Greg Isenberg [00:52:23]:
People who have jobs, mailbox money is possible, but difficult. And I think 2024 year of mailbox money. Zach, thank you for taking the time for coming on the show.

Zack Pogrob [00:52:40]:
Thank you. That was fun. We ripped some good ideas in there, hopefully. Maybe.

Greg Isenberg [00:52:44]:
Absolutely. I think people let us know. Post in the YouTube comments if you liked any of the ideas or if you have any ideas for one words that you want to own. And where could people get to know you a little bit more?

Zack Pogrob [00:53:00]:
Best place to get to know me is my YouTube just Zach pogrob. You could probably find it by searching that. And I'm doing a video every single day this year, trying to make them all long form. They mostly have been like over like ten minutes. But my biggest platform is Instagram. Pretty active on stories there lately. Zach Pogrob and Twitter is like my favorite platform, though, for the cult I'm trying to build. And just like I said, brainwashing like nonstop.

Zack Pogrob [00:53:26]:
If you follow my Twitter, it's very low chance you won't get obsessed. So take that as a warning.

Greg Isenberg [00:53:31]:
But yeah, I think everyone should go follow you there. Not just to be interested in the great content you're putting up, but also to me, you're building the blueprint for how so many brands are going to be created in the future and how so many. I think there's going to be like a Zach Pogrob for X. It's worth studying.

Zack Pogrob [00:53:56]:
It is funny, like, no creators, not to interrupt you, very few people are doing the name thing and I just think it's so important. Totally. It blows me away. You do it, you're like one of the only ones.

Greg Isenberg [00:54:05]:
Because I love names. I love names.

Zack Pogrob [00:54:08]:
It's the best. Dude, coming up with names is the best fucking game ever. And only people who do it understand it. But it is an infinite game. It never ends. And it is so hard.

Greg Isenberg [00:54:17]:
Yeah, it's definitely underrated. A good name is totally underrated. And I tweeted this recently, which is, premium domains are actually underrated, in my opinion.

Zack Pogrob [00:54:27]:
I think so, too.

Greg Isenberg [00:54:28]:
Yeah, we didn't need to buy multiprenesship.com, but we did because it was just.

Zack Pogrob [00:54:34]:
Like, it's just sick. It's sick. It makes your brand look sick. I don't know. I'm a fan.

Greg Isenberg [00:54:40]:
And the other thing about premium domains, quick tactical thing for folks, is that you can lease them, a lot of them. So if you find a domain that you really like, and you're like, I can't afford $50,000 for this domain. A lot of them, you can go and offer them, hey, I can pay you $2,000 a month or $1,500 a. So I've heard of that.

Zack Pogrob [00:55:03]:
That's smart. Yeah.

Greg Isenberg [00:55:05]:
All right, man, I'll catch you in New York.

Zack Pogrob [00:55:08]:
Let's go. Stay obsessed.