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Welcome to the Revenue Rebels podcast, hosted by Alan Zhao, Co-Founder of Warmly.ai.
We feature B2B SaaS revenue leaders who have challenged traditional methods to achieve remarkable results.
In each episode we cut through the fluff and dive deep into modern tactics used to achieve success: intent-based outreach, social selling, B2B Netflix, video marketing, warm calling, customer led sales, influencer marketing and more.
On the show you can expect episodes with those who create demand - marketing experts, partnerships gurus and social media superstars and those who capture demand - outbound and inbound sales experts, leaders, and practitioners.
Our goal is to shine a light on modern, effective and unique revenue generating methods and equip you with the insights you need to unlock your next strategic advantage.
We're huge proponents of signal-based selling and signal-based, data-driven B2B go-to-market as a whole. Ask us what "Autonomous Revenue Orchestration" means and we'll be more than happy to shine a light on our vision of what the field of B2B revenue will become.
For more content, check out our YouTube page and LinkedIn newsletter!
Aditya Vempaty: [00:00:00] It's not about the product. It's about the customer. It's about who is going to likely buy this and what is their problem that they're trying to solve. And really, as I said earlier, going and understanding the fundamental of their problem and breaking it down and working backwards from that. It sounds simple enough, but like a unit 21, we looked at the amount of time spent getting engineering support to solve false positives.
Aditya Vempaty: And they were getting, it was like something less than 10 hours a week to solve false positive false positives. There's a fraud, but it really isn't fraud. And engineering needs to fix the, or go in and fix the filters. And so they would have to go to engineering and go do it. And if they got more false positives.
Aditya Vempaty: Then they would spend way more time chasing ghosts that weren't real.
Alan Zhao: Welcome to the revenue rebels podcast brought to you by warmly on this show. We cut straight through the fluff and dive deep into the specific tactics that B2B revenue leaders across sales and marketing are using to find success in today's environment.
Alan Zhao: I'm your host, Alan Zao. All right. Another [00:01:00] episode of revenue rebels today. I'm joined by a DT Vinpati. He's the VP of marketing at MoEngage, an insights led customer engagement platform for marketers. Previously, he's been a head of marketing at Amplitude, Synthego, and most recently, Unit 21. And today we're going to be talking about product positioning and content programs.
Alan Zhao: And DTL, welcome.
Aditya Vempaty: Thanks, Alan, for having me on the podcast. Really appreciate the chance to share whatever knowledge I can with folks that are tuning in. I'm going to cover a variety of topics about how I got started in marketing, as well as my thoughts on marketing the problem. I'm just excited to share my knowledge and pass it on and hopefully help other marketers out there or revenue leaders Utilize the knowledge to help scale their organizations or their campaigns or their companies as well.
Alan Zhao: You're really valuable experience You have a decade's worth of marketing and leadership. So excited about this episode Why don't we start off with a quick background about yourself and how you got to where you are today?
Aditya Vempaty: Yeah, fun fact. I actually did electrical engineering from Georgia tech and I was a [00:02:00] engineer for about three, four years.
Aditya Vempaty: I like to say I was a failed engineer whose heart was captured by marketing. And for me, that led me down a path of just like, I liked coding, but at the same time, I just saw that I liked working with people on a larger scale and really understanding psychologically how they work and understanding what they care about and getting them to Take certain actions to buy things or read a blog or convert on emails, et cetera.
Aditya Vempaty: And that led me down the path of going from an engineer into actually an SDR. And then led me down into demand gen and managing a team of SDRs and going from there and progressing onto running entire marketing organizations. And it was very much just understanding human psychology. And then there was a time where.
Aditya Vempaty: Marketers weren't as data driven, or I would say data informed, and I was pretty data informed having that analytical mindset of an engineer, and then pretty [00:03:00] decently creative in trying to combine that, so I was very quick to experiment, look at if the data made sense, and then iterate, and my engineering skillset, I think, really allowed me to have the structure of using numbers and calculating formulas, while my curiosity led me to being very creative.
Aditya Vempaty: I would say creative in trying different various things and not being afraid to try those out and measuring them in a quantifiable way, if it was working or not. And that led me to transition from engineering to marketing.
Alan Zhao: I think it's gotta be one of the most interesting paths into marketing. I actually follow this myself, having been an engineer and then CTO and not had a marketing at Warmly.
Alan Zhao: We'd love to just dive into this topic a little bit more. What do you think has been one of the benefits of coming from an engineering background?
Aditya Vempaty: Yeah, I think a key benefit is. When you come from engineering background, engineers are trained to go solve problems and they're trying to solve problems in a systematic way where it's repeatable and you're able to replicate it.
Aditya Vempaty: And that I think actually shows up in marketing more than people [00:04:00] understand. And that's where as a marketer, I'm often like, Hey, people have a certain problem. Yes, you want to sell your product. You want to get in front of them. But what I've realized was they have a problem. They're trying to solve it. So how do you appeal to them psychologically?
Aditya Vempaty: And understand how they're buying process works and the engineering side of taking that entire process and breaking it down and knowing when to engage them and how to engage them and where to engage them has been, I would say, really key in standing out as a marketer versus just as an engineer. And that's where the engineering skill sets of breaking the problem down are so key in market.
Alan Zhao: That's really fascinating to have that perspective. At the end of the day, we're trying to solve problems for our customers. Engineers are some of the best people at solving problems. And sometimes as a marketer, I even forget, like I'm here to solve their problem, not solve the whole marketing and do marketing and build stuff.
Alan Zhao: No, it's about them. So
Aditya Vempaty: it's very much about them. You nailed it. And as an engineer, what's funny is engineers like solving problems. Cause it's [00:05:00] fun, but they also inherently solve problems that help people. And the sad part is. Talk about marketing is I think marketers often forget and they start marketing.
Aditya Vempaty: Say, I like, this is cool, but they stop, forget to stop and say, wait, what does the other person care about? Why would they care about that? Why would it matter to that? Yes, definitely.
Alan Zhao: Not just marketers, but founders as well. We're all guilty of it. We try to build products that we want to see out in the world, but it doesn't actually solve a customer's problem.
Alan Zhao: So yeah, exactly. Great benefit comes from engineering. Let's dive into the main topic and let's talk about this. So product positioning, how do you start off?
Aditya Vempaty: Yeah, look, the product positioning starting off right now, that's like a vast question. It's like almost like existentially, like what is the meaning of life in some instances, right?
Aditya Vempaty: But here, like really think about product positioning. There's some fundamentals, right? People like say, Oh, if you're marketing a product, like it's about the positioning, the placement and the persona. And I'm, I take a different stance of it. I really [00:06:00] think about It's not about the product. It's about the customer.
Aditya Vempaty: It's about who is going to likely buy this and what is their problem that they're trying to solve. And really, as I said earlier, going and understanding the fundamental of their problem and breaking it down and working backwards from that. And oftentimes that really requires speaking to a lot of people in the space who are decision makers and supporting them in understanding the nuance of what is the core issue they're trying to get at.
Aditya Vempaty: And is there one? Is there many? Or when does the core issue arrive, and when is it not an issue, and is it something they're willing to pay money for? And this is something that deeply matters, and something that I think is really key. And if you can't sit there and go back and discover the problem, to what they're willing to pay for and what they're willing to spend money on, it gets to be an issue.
Aditya Vempaty: And that's why I usually spend time taking surveys and being like, cool, what is the actual problem you have? And not just saying, Hey, what is your [00:07:00] problem? What are the three things you want to solve more? Hey, this is a problem. Is this a problem that you're willing to pay for? Is this a problem that you have a metric that you're measuring against and that you are measured for?
Aditya Vempaty: And if you solve this problem, does this positively impact your, your brand and your perception in the company? and getting to that level of insight. And then you can see what actually matters to them versus what surface level. And once you understand that, then you start marketing around the actual core problem because they're motivated to solve it.
Aditya Vempaty: And they're motivated to spend the time, money, and effort to fix it because they're going to look good, can make their life easier. And it's actually going to move the needle for them in some way or form that's measurable. And so that's where once you find that you can start meeting them where they are.
Aditya Vempaty: And as they understand the problem, you understand the problem, you deliver content that resonates with them. Then you can start talking about positioning your company around that problem and your product around the problem. So, I can't hear you, Alan. Sorry, not sure how that could happen, [00:08:00] but
Alan Zhao: we'll cut that out.
Alan Zhao: Yeah, so this is really great insight. Finding the problem is probably where the war is actually won or lost. And I think, A lot of companies don't spend enough time diagnosing what problem the problem is, and oftentimes it's solutioning around how we could solve the problem. Can we go through a couple of questions that you've asked on your most recent survey at Moengage to help narrow down the problem?
Aditya Vempaty: Yeah, I'll give a simple example. There's many nuances to it. We asked some people, Hey, what channels do you use in marketing? And we wanted to understand, like, what are the channels that really matter to them? What don't? And typically, You would just ask the question, Oh, Hey, what are the top channels you use in cross channel marketing?
Aditya Vempaty: And you'll get a bunch of response, but to truly understand what matters to them, you have to change a little. You have to start a little bit of different, Hey, what are the most effective channels for you and your cross channel in your caution on marketing efforts? And when you make that change and ask what are the most effective, you're getting them to one a think about what's working for them or [00:09:00] not working for them and give you that insight.
Aditya Vempaty: And the next thing is we ask, can you list the top five that are effective for you? So then this makes them think, Oh, if I'm getting asked this question, then others that are taking this survey, get asked this question and they're going to share the findings with me. This is going to be something of deep value to me.
Aditya Vempaty: So the answers get to be more sophisticated, nuanced and simple, and you get to the core of what they care about. So that's one question that let us know. What people really care about in terms of what solves it for them, or it doesn't solve it for them. And what are the key problems they're looking to solve?
Aditya Vempaty: And what are the channels that are affected? Then another question that we asked was, we're trying to understand like what does their software stack look and what matters to them in when they're thinking about making a purchase or a cross channel marketing or customer engagement. And typically you'd say, Oh, what do you look for in purchasing a customer engagement product?
Aditya Vempaty: And That answer will make them feel like it's very [00:10:00] sales. That question will make them feel like it's very salesy that you're trying to sell them something. So we asked them, Hey, what are the things that matter to you? If you're thinking about making a new software, I'm thinking about replacing your current customer engagement platform.
Aditya Vempaty: And we listed a few options and we asked them to rank it right. And we don't do it that often. Cause also you don't want them to make it too tedious to give you the information. So you use this question very sparingly and this format. Yeah. But when you ask them that they sit and actually be like, Oh, this one matters to me.
Aditya Vempaty: This doesn't matter to me. Ask them, rank it from a scale of one to five and of not important at all to very important and put a few features for software and having a question set up that way, get to the heart and what they care about versus just saying, Hey, what would make you switch your software renders?
Aditya Vempaty: Or what do you look for in a new software render? And having them like, I look for this and this. We want them to actually spend a little time in the key areas, not an all question, but that gets you those insights. So you can get to that problem and you can understand their psyche. [00:11:00]
Alan Zhao: I have this question around whether or not how much to listen to the customers, because they might say they want something, but sometimes that's not really what they want.
Alan Zhao: I always have this idea that language is your product when they haven't tried out your product. And the language that they use to describe their problem is if you act on it, then that will ultimately be your product. But what if it's not the right thing to be building in the first place? How do you resolve that?
Aditya Vempaty: Yeah, that's a great point, right? So one, you do the survey, like I've done that. Then the next thing is actually picking out a few survey respondents that have said things that you find interesting or are a companies and have a persona that you want to go engage with and going ahead and saying, Hey, would you spend half an hour with me talking through things?
Aditya Vempaty: And asking them, how are you, if this is a problem, how is it measured? Are you willing to spend time and energy to solve this problem, either through money or resources or services? And what would you pay? And [00:12:00] usually when you can triangulate around like how they're measuring that problem currently internally, will they back money behind it or resources?
Aditya Vempaty: And. Are they really willing to pull the trigger? You can figure out is this the real issue or not? Or the next thing I usually find is when you do those interviews Double clicking into it. I actually find like it is a tertiary problem and there's a deeper problem And this is just and so when we find that out in the qualitative state that helps quite a bit How do you know if you have something that's
Alan Zhao: red hot versus?
Alan Zhao: Yellow versus neutral. Is there some sort of heuristic in your mind of triangulating that?
Aditya Vempaty: Yeah. It's like, how do you know if something is really burning pain or like semi or not at all? The, the question that really comes about this may sound really simple, but is that, are they measuring that metric and do they have to report on it?
Aditya Vempaty: And oftentimes when they have a pain and they don't really have to report on it, but it's very subjective and people are feeling the pain, especially in like larger organizations, [00:13:00] they're probably not going to get the budget to solve that pain. And that is probably not a real pain. And I know it sounds really simple, but if others aren't seeing the metric and they're not tracking it, then they're not going to put the money or budget behind it to solve that.
Aditya Vempaty: And then it's just, it's out for a harder battle. And it's not like the true pain. And you got to go dig in and find out what that true pain is and ask them, like, how are they measuring? If this is a pain, but it's not measured, then what is measured that this pain is impacting? And how would they go ahead and how would that metric move if this was solved?
Aditya Vempaty: And would they be willing to pay to move that metric? Now, this pain no longer matters, but that metric matters. And if this can move it, then will they be willing to pay for it? And I know, like I said, it sounds simple enough, but like a unit 21, we looked at the amount of time spent getting engineering support to solve false positives.
Aditya Vempaty: And they were getting, it was like something less than 10 hours a week to solve false positive, false positives. There's a fraud, [00:14:00] but it really isn't fraud. And engineering needs to fix the, or go in and fix the filters. And so they would have to go to engineering and go do it. And if they got more false positives, then they would spend way more time chasing ghosts that weren't real.
Aditya Vempaty: And you had 21 sold software where you could go fix those filters yourself as a risk or fraud expert. And you didn't have to wait for engineering. So if we could really allow you to self serve and reduce your dependency on engineering, then we knew people would spend more money and buy it. And so that's the metric we use.
Aditya Vempaty: And that's what we went out and said, Hey, did you know the average fraud or risk expert gets less than 10 hours of support, um, um, a week from engineering to actually identify false positives. And that was, Whoa, that that's me. I deal with that. I need more help. How do you think about this?
Alan Zhao: If you're a fan of the Revenue Rebels podcast, please leave us a review on Spotify and Apple podcast.
Alan Zhao: Your support goes a long way in helping us bring on more amazing guests. Thank you. [00:15:00] Yep. I love this point about if it's not tied to a metric that you report on, then it's going to have less likelihood of getting budget. So before we dive into the next section, what was Maw and Gage's problem or pain that you guys crystallized on?
Aditya Vempaty: Yeah. So I think with Moengage, what we really crystallize on, if you sat back and looked at everything was that people know they have to do for us, they have to do cross channel marketing, but they aren't able to understand what channels are effective and they aren't able to understand what channels are allowing them to convert their customers.
Aditya Vempaty: And the last part is that. They're not able to actually understand the user journey and see where what's converting and what's not converting and where to put their budget and not. And this, I think a real quick way of saying is that they're focused on acquiring new customers because they don't understand how to retain or drive engagement with current one.[00:16:00]
Aditya Vempaty: And they're spending, it was something like 60 percent of their time and budget on new acquisition of new customers and only 40 percent on retaining and try to drive loyalty with current one. And the part that we found out was it costs five to 10 X more to get a new customer and then retain a current.
Aditya Vempaty: So then we started really focusing and saying, Hey, you need to start thinking about retention while acquiring new customers. And to do that, you need a cross channel customer engagement, um, strategy and marketing. So a little long winded, but that's what it's summarized to.
Alan Zhao: Makes sense. Okay. Diving into the next section.
Alan Zhao: Now that we have the problem that we're solving and the unique insight and the perspective of how to language it, how do we develop the content program to educate the audience on the problem and the solution that you just mentioned?
Aditya Vempaty: Yeah. So it's really thinking about, Hey, what is the content that really matters to them?
Aditya Vempaty: We talked about the problem now, how do they consume that content and what does that content look like? Is it a podcast? Yeah. Is it [00:17:00] a webinar? Is it an event? Is it a one pager? Is it blog content? You need to also understand that part. And in the survey, we also asked that too, to be like, where do you actually consume content?
Aditya Vempaty: What are the content that, that you care about? And before making a decision, what's the content you look at to educate yourself. And based on that, we started developing content around that. And we said, Hey, let's take a topic or pain point. Like here, I said earlier, it is to like, let's talk about why retention and loyalty matters and how cross channel marketing To drive retention or loyalty requires customer engagement And start writing about that And start writing about it for each vertical um then Looking at that and saying cool How do we engage people that consume it on a webinar side?
Aditya Vempaty: Or that consume it on a blog or that consume it on linkedin or one pager and how do we develop those assets accordingly? and Do that for those verticals and bring in customers that [00:18:00] talk about how to drive retention and loyalty, let's say in a webinar with an influencer. And so our content isn't just like words, it's in various formats and how do we do it every month, have a webinar, have a stream of blogs, four or five that come out every month on this problem in a different lens and have like PDFs or one pagers also from those blogs or from the webinar.
Aditya Vempaty: So that way. Where people can, how they consume content is where we're meeting them with the problem that they're trying to learn and educate themselves on. And looking at it, not, and just to be clear, it's thinking about it, like, how do I constantly have a drum beat? So they feel like we're giving them something of value constantly before we ask for anything back.
Aditya Vempaty: So it's very much about them and their problem. And they are Luke Skywalker. We're Yoda. We're just here to help you. You're the hero. We want to make sure you succeed and we're just back.
Alan Zhao: Do you have a way? So my guess is that you have different content for different [00:19:00] stages of their bone buyer journey, applying your own problem solution that you're solving.
Alan Zhao: So how do you think about creating content depending on their stage, maybe awareness versus bottom of the funnel? Do you think about it that way?
Aditya Vempaty: We do. And what's actually unique is we always try to start with bottom and middle of funnel before we go to top of funnel. The reason being is if you do top of funnel, it takes you longer to know if your content's resonating.
Aditya Vempaty: Whereas if you do middle and bottom. This is high intent content. Like if someone is looking for, I'll give you an example, customer engagement platform for cross channel marketing in retail, that is a very long tail, high intent keyword. And if you write for that and rank for that and develop content for that on YouTube.
Aditya Vempaty: And it resonates in conversions that's working. And that's why you start bottom to middle funnel before you have a top and top is always last because that has a broader net. You're not going to get, you're going to get a lot of people in, but they're not going to convert as much. And the other side is you have to make sure your sales compatriots [00:20:00] know what you're doing is working.
Aditya Vempaty: So you have to start with bottom to get them some wins on the board right away and then go up top.
Alan Zhao: Can we start, can we talk a little bit about the mech and actually the details of how you instrument the system to see if your content is converting? I know it sounds obvious, probably book meeting or close one, but how do you do it?
Alan Zhao: What systems do you use? What's the process?
Aditya Vempaty: Yeah, it's combination, right? If you look at it, when you put the content out first, you like analyze, you want the hardcore of it. Hardcore. You look at the topic clusters you want to rank for that are associated with the problems that you've discovered. Then you take those topic clusters, right?
Aditya Vempaty: And you look at all the keywords in these topic clusters. And you look at the volumes that they're at. Then you take the volumes for the keywords in the topic clusters and then develop a three to six month contract. And that content plan and the topic clusters has the problem, like I was saying, and it has the keywords and the volume associated with those problems.
Aditya Vempaty: And then the content plan is, I'm going to do vlogs. I'm going to do webinar. I'm going to do [00:21:00] videos that are short form. And looking at how you're going to start rolling that out and using one, a cadence of newsletters every week with the new blog or webinar or video, then the next part is making sure that your SDRs and AEs are using it to outbound people.
Aditya Vempaty: Right? So that way it isn't just content living out there. It's used and your AEs and SDRs are delivering value when they engage people with it. And then last but not least, getting it out there into the hands of where the watering holes are. And so the process is like you use HubSpot to send the emails, you Salesforce to monitor if you're actually getting these deals in for these campaigns and they're becoming ops and then putting it into outreach.
Aditya Vempaty: So SDRs and AEs can use these links accordingly with the messaging that you have, but that's like a hyper detailed version of it.
Alan Zhao: And then how do you know if the content is resonating? Let's say it's middle of the funnel content or it's bottom of the funnel, but they came to the site and you can't really, like, how do you [00:22:00] know if the words is resonating, the theming and yeah.
Aditya Vempaty: Yeah. So that's the interesting, right? There's two ways to look at it. One is, are you getting leads from it? That's like a lagging indicator, right? Indicator is a, is it ranking B? Is it starting to get traffic? If you see those signals, then the next signal is, do you start seeing lead come from it? Got it.
Aditya Vempaty: That makes a lot of sense. Cool.
Alan Zhao: Now that we've gotten the content, all the assets in place, let's talk about distribution.
Aditya Vempaty: Yeah, this is my fun part. This is where I think a lot of marketing is actually changing. And I think how marketing and B2B is done is it going, a lot of people don't see it, but in the next two, three years, it's going to change.
Aditya Vempaty: And I believe fundamentally. It's going to become more influencer based. It's going to become more micro influencers and people that have a voice who others trust because they either know them or they've interacted with them, or they built a career in this. And I think the, they are going to be the watering holes.
Aditya Vempaty: They are where you go to, to find an audience because they're building their own audience. [00:23:00] And there's a real creator economy and B2B more than anybody else. And LinkedIn knows it. They're not, they've been playing the game for two, three years already. So that's where I think distribution is going to happen.
Aditya Vempaty: I'm not saying LinkedIn, but I'm saying influencers who have the watering holes for these specific industries and verticals. And almost to the point, you'll have people that are marketers in retail, that are, let's say, performance marketers, like you'll have those influencers and you have techno Martech folks in retail, where influencers, you'll have to go to them for watering holes.
Aditya Vempaty: And I think it's going to get that granular over the next. Two, three years, and I'm seeing a little bit of it already. And that's what we spent a lot of time in distribution is making sure we are friends with these influencers and we are putting good content that they want to share with their audience.
Aditya Vempaty: And that is how we're trying to build our brand and our credibility is utilizing their brand and their credibility by giving things of value to their audience.
Alan Zhao: Let's talk about this for a second. Influencer channel is [00:24:00] really popular right now. How do you create this influencer program? What do you do?
Alan Zhao: Talk to them for 15
Aditya Vempaty: minutes. The thing is a lot of B2B influencers are relatively very new compared to B2C influencers. They're just getting started and they're more protective of their brand than I would say B2C is because B2C knows what to do, not to do, and they know there's like a bar that has to be met.
Aditya Vempaty: Whereas B2B influencers are like, is it something of value? I'm not going to go out there and just say mode engages the greatest thing in the world. Or unit 21 is awesome. Like we were there, it was like, Hey, is your content of value? Is this something cool? Is it something unique? Are you saying things that give value to my audience?
Aditya Vempaty: And that is we go find these influencers. And when we work with them, that's like the first question they ask. Is this going to be valuable to my audience? Is this something that my audience cares about? I don't care if you paid me money or not. I don't want to do wrong by my audience. And it's where they're almost [00:25:00] like right now.
Aditya Vempaty: It's unique stuff is what's going to get you attention. And it's pay to play. There's no free lunch in B2B and there shouldn't be. It has to be good. And you have, and these influencers make a living off that. So you got to pay them for it. Wow. Makes sense.
Alan Zhao: Yeah. It's something I've seen as well, that if free influencers, especially in B2B and on LinkedIn, they're trying to build their own brand.
Alan Zhao: So can we tie this all together? Once we've instrumented the system of we have found the right product positioning against our competitors and exactly what our audience is looking for, we created the right content, top, middle, bottom, and we distributed across the right channels that people want to listen from what is the final.
Alan Zhao: So the biggest thing is like, how
Aditya Vempaty: do you know if you succeeded, right? It's not going to happen. Overnight, it's going to take three to six months at least. And what you've succeeded is when you start getting people saying, Hey, you have really good content. Oh, I saw your content. Oh, wow. I really like your newsletter.
Aditya Vempaty: You'll start hearing these tidbits more. And I know it sounds truly like colloquial, but that's how you know things are [00:26:00] working in your sales team. When they're sending their content out that you created, they get feedback saying, I really liked reading this. This was really good. And that's like the feedback loop of positivity that you'll start getting, but it'll take three to six months for that to happen on a continuous drumbeat.
Aditya Vempaty: Every week of releasing new content across various channels. So you're not going to have one metric that's going to move the needle. You'll see the traffic, but you really care in this day and age, the distribution of content is one thing, but like, how does it set your brand up and position your brand?
Aditya Vempaty: And then therefore your product in the buyer's mind. And you'll start seeing that with how they talk about your company and what it's doing through the channels you're putting, pushing content out metric wise. Yeah. You look, I'm getting more traffic, I'm getting more conversions. But that brand perception happens when people interact and engage and tell you that what you're doing is working for them.
Alan Zhao: Yeah. I see this line, the LinkedIn, sometimes people ask, what's the, the best tool for X? And then they'll list like three companies. If you're not sure. List job a position.
Aditya Vempaty: Exactly. [00:27:00] And it, it's, I know it's simple, but man, you the simplest way to explain something. Is often the hardest way to get there. To be like one of those three, you got to do a lot of work and be where those people are and get those reviews and get that word of mouth.
Alan Zhao: Yeah, been such a pleasure talking with you about product position. Uh, I can go to my
Aditya Vempaty: linkedin. com slash Aditya Empathy. Send me a message. I'm on Twitter. A V E M I. Always happy to pay it forward. Any advice people need, just message me. I'm pretty easy to reach in that sense. A lot of people have helped me in my career.
Aditya Vempaty: I get to where I am right now and I always love paying it back and paying it forward. Thanks for paying it forward. Appreciate the time. Thank you, Alan. Thank you for having [00:28:00] me.