079 | Philip Duff | Never Stop Learning to Master The Drinks Industry |

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In this episode of the Maffeo Drinks Podcast, host Chris Maffeo welcomes guest Philip Duff, a renowned bar industry personality and brand owner.

They engage in a vibrant discussion about the complexity of creating and managing a brand in the drinks industry, drawing from Philip's diverse experiences.

Chris emphasizes the importance of learning and adapting in the ever-evolving beverage industry and the importance of never being afraid to take risks.

The discussion touches on brand creation, the demographic approach, and the significance of brand uniqueness. The conversation delves into identifying market gaps, consumer demographics, the evolution of drinking occasions, and how brands like Cointreau and Fireball succeeded by seizing opportunities.

They explore how timing and adaptability can be pivotal in making a brand successful, citing examples of industry giants who were once small players.

Throughout, Chris and Philip share insights on the significance of pivoting and continuously engaging with the evolving landscape of the drinks industry.

00:00 Welcome to the Maffeo Drinks Podcast

00:27 Introducing Philip Duff

01:40 The Journey of Brand Building

05:19 Navigating the Liquor Industry

07:48 Targeting the Right Audience

24:56 The Importance of Timing and Trends

38:13 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Phillip Duff

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Philip Duff

Philip Duff Show

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

I'm Chris Mafia, your host and
fellow drinks builder.

I'm really honored to have you
as one of our listeners from 111

countries.
As MO ask if you enjoy the show,

please leave a review and share
it with others in the industry.

Visit mafiadrinks.com for free
resources, premium content and

episode transcripts.
Now let's dive into today's

episode.
Hi Philip, welcome to the

Massaging podcast.
How are you?

I'm great Chris, thanks for
having me back on.

Always a pleasure to have a chat
with somebody like yourself.

Fantastic.
It's a great honor.

I think you were to be honest,
what if not the first one or

probably the first one, or maybe
the second to invite me on his

podcast in all the Philip Duff
show.

And that was, I think one of
these things that kind of like

sparkle and say like, OK, now
it's time to start my own.

And you know, now I, I, I use it
as an excuse.

And so I, I owe you that.
No, not at all.

No, no, that's, that's great.
It's long overdue.

Finally, in the meantime, we
managed to meet at bar convents

Berlin last year, just randomly
bumped into each other and we

managed to have a drink or two
together.

And so finally, you know, like
we don't only know each other

from voice or video, but at
least we had some hugging and

and drinking together to connect
more.

That's the best way to do Bar
Confident Berlin, because that

show will break you.
Otherwise, fantastic.

So let's start.
I mean, like, what is

interesting about the
conversation I want to add with

you is that I mean, you are not
only Philip Duff, the legendary

personality that is going across
all continents, but you're also

brand owner.
So I, I like to, you know, have

a few kind of like back and
forth and I bouncing ideas and

learn from from your experience
on how it is to navigate working

with brands and still being
behind the bar and having your

own brand.
You know, like you have so many

hats that you can play with that
brings you so much experience

and keeps you learning and
iterating this wonderful world

of of drinks.
Yeah, I mean, after you've been

in the industry for a while,
like, you know, Chris, it can

get very safe and nice and easy.
But if you're not constantly

learning, you're going to be
left behind.

And you won't be left behind in
one year or two years or three

years.
But after five years, you'll sit

down and be like, shit, what is
all this stuff that the young

kids are talking about?
So certainly when I was a young

bartender, I was absolutely
convinced on you everything

about running a bar.
And then I opened my own bar and

I suddenly realized, Oh my God,
I had no idea.

And it's really the same.
When I was a bar owner, I

thought I knew absolutely
everything about liquor brands

and how to run liquor brands.
And then I started my own 1 and

I was like, oh, so it's the,
it's the instance MBA in liquor

brand ownership.
And it costs about the same.

It costs the six figures home to
get started as well.

So that's something that I
really would encourage all my

peers to do, which is to never
stop taking risks because it's

an even bigger risk not to take
any risks.

You have to keep learning and
staying up to date and you have

to keep finding out with the
young up and coming bartenders

and new styles of drink making
and actually new up and coming

city for cocktails and spirits
like Riga and Zilnias.

It's a fantastic reminder and I,
I, I think I hear it very often

from you, if I'm not mistaken,
on your podcast, the, the famous

quote from Mike Tyson.
You know, everybody has a plan

until they get punched in the
face.

And this is like what it sounds
like to start anything.

I mean, it can be really, you
know, from a podcast, through a

brand, from a consulting
business to, you know, like

their own brand bar and
everything.

You know, it's like continuous
iteration and and actually like

behind me, you see a lot of
books and many of them are

actually are from a tweet I
wrote many years ago and you

were kind to reply and you gave
me a list of books and I bought,

I think all of them.
And it's just kind of like back

and forth and taking notes.
It brings you all this kind of

like sideway connections between
things that make you really

ahead of the curve.
Because otherwise it's like, and

I always say to myself, it's
like, it's not that I know more

than people, you know, on my
topics.

It's just said that's all I do
all the time.

You know, I keep going to bars.
I read books, I talk to people

like you, you know, like I keep
challenging my own thinking.

And the moment I write it down,
then that's the moment that I

say, let me ask Philip, let me
bounce these ideas with him and

let let's get a challenge.
And then if I can adjust it and

tweak it a little bit, then that
makes it more bulletproof, at

least for the next couple of
months.

So let me start from my, you
know, famous question that I

haven't been asked in the latest
ones, but like I want to ask you

again, does it start with a
brand or with the liquid?

You are a liquid guy and you are
a brand guy as well.

So what?
What's your take on that one?

I think that the discipline of
creating brands is a positive

thing.
By which I mean, if you're a

consultant like me, a company
might come along and say, hey,

Sale, we're thinking of doing a
whiskey or a gin or something,

and then I've got something to
start from.

Or I've got my own brand, Old
Duff Geneva.

I'm like, OK, maybe we do a
special relief, maybe we do a

barrel aged or something like
that.

But it all has to start from
somewhere.

And the key to me is whether
you're talking about liquids or

brands, you have to find first a
gap in the market.

And then you have to hold and
calculate a little bit that

there is a market in the gap,
right, that you're going to sell

more than 100 bottles a year.
And then, and this is really,

really, really, really, really
important, you have to have

something distinctive like if
you're going to make a Tennessee

whiskey, it had better taste
different to Jack Daniels

because you can't compete
against Jack Daniel on its own

territory.
Rice, another famous saying, I

think it was the Chinese
generals fun, too.

He said the army that chooses
its baffle field seldom loses.

You can't compete against the
big guys on their battlefield,

but you can if you pick the
battlefield.

And that is both the liquid and
the brand universe.

And to be perfectly honest, it's
going to make me very unpopular

with a lot of people.
But for a new listeners up,

nothing new for me.
Liquids is not easy, but it's

straightforward.
The world is full of amazing

liquids.
Amazing, amazing liquids.

It is not full of amazing brands
and people who know how to sell

them.
There's a lot more incredible

distillers than there are Chris
Mafios out there who know how to

sell the product.
So I don't want to minimize

their incredible skill of
distillers and production

managers and all that kind of
thing, but their job is a lot

more straightforward.
Whereas the brand universe, the

rules are changing.
Sometimes it feels like every

single day.
I I like to start with a

demographic of people.
I don't just think urban

professionals aged 25 to 35, I
think, OK, they live in

Brooklyn, but not just in
Brooklyn.

Where do they live in Brooklyn?
Do they live in Greenpoint or

Buswick or Inwood?
If they vacation, do they go to

Bali or Goa?
If they're going partying, do

they take ketamine or DMT or
ayahuasca?

I want to get as clear a picture
as I can of my absolute bull fly

customers.
And from that moment I'll say to

myself, OK, what do they want?
What are the things that they

value in a brand?
And then I'll create that brand.

And don't ever let anyone tell
you difference.

There's a lot of guessing here
and it doesn't work.

If you have money and the
smartest people in the world,

you're still only reducing the
risk to 5050.

It's always 5050 in the best
case scenario.

Nobody knows anything in the
drinks industry, but 5050 is not

bad.
So that's my answer to that

question as to how a brand
begins.

Somebody asked somebody else to
think about this thing, and you

then go away and create
something distinctive, both from

a liquid point of view, but
maybe even more importantly from

a brand point of.
View on on this one, I think we

have a little bit of a different
take on because I tend to

discard the consumer in that
sense, you know, like the

demographic because I like to
think much more in target

occasions.
You know, I always give the

example, you know, it can be me
in a Czech pub, you know, having

sausages and beers or me at the
embassy having champagne with

the ambassador and it's, it's
still me.

You know, one day I'm wearing a
suit, the other day I'm wearing

shorts and and T-shirts now.
How?

Do you compliment that from your
perspective on because I like

that thing that it's, you know,
it is about closing the gap for

one type of consumer.
It's just that for me, it

doesn't belong to a certain
demographic, it belongs to a, a

certain needs on that moment.
It's like I want to have

something refreshing or, you
know, and, and that's from the

liquid point of view, you know,
then when it comes to the brand

that I agree with you that, you
know, you need to take a kind of

like a route on, OK, which kind
of person is it?

Is it like the, the Upper East
Side type of person or is it the

Green Point type of person?
You know, what I like about what

you said is that is is the
geographical element that I love

playing with, You know, when
launching a brand in a city,

because it's like I was talking
about own a neighborhoods before

expanding now, because that's
where you win.

And then you become like we used
to go to like local bigness.

Now that you are perceived
bigger than you are, because

it's just like where Philip
goes, you know, there's the

five, six places where he goes
every week or every month.

And if I managed to put the
Mafia or whatever bourbon in it,

then he will see the mafia
bourbon everywhere.

How do you connect the target
occasion, which could be a

little bit more, let's say wider
than that demographic, into?

Yeah, listen, these all lead
back to the same points of view

actually, just different ways to
look at it.

And this concept of bullseye
target consumers demographics

actually stems from an old
bosomite, a Canadian gentleman

named Michael Wheeler.
He's the one who hired me to

train bartenders at what was
going to be a chain of bars in

Rotterdam in the Levelland about
a years ago.

And he came up with the concept
of a dartboard, obviously.

And a dartboard has a bullseye,
and the bullseye is very small,

95% of the dartboard is not the
bullseye.

But the bullseye for us as
consumers in this bar was at

Single Ladies, 25 to 35.
Now I have to give some

background information there.
At the time, you could legally

drink in a bar in Holland.
At the age of 16, though, a 25

year old lady had been going out
for almost 10 years.

So she was done.
She didn't need to go out

anymore.
She'd had all the partying and

and whatever.
So she was a discerning

consumer.
She's probably been to college.

She's few years into her job,
maybe she's already bought an

apartment.
She's doing well, right?

Price of the drinks doesn't
really matter.

Price of the food doesn't really
matter.

But these ladies were such a
tiny percentage, but they were

the most exacting customers.
The drinks had to be cold, the

food had to be harsh, the toilet
had to be sparkling plain.

The bartenders had to be
attentive because these ladies

had, quite frankly, done it all
right.

And in a bar of 600 people on a
Saturday night, we might only

have had 20 or 30 of these
ladies.

But we paid a lot of attention
to them.

And again, not for the cliched
reason like, oh, wherever the

ladies are, the guys follow.
No, very often these ladies

weren't.
And to meet guys, we paid

attention to them because they
were our ultimate bullseye

customer.
If it was good enough for them,

it would be perfect for
everybody else.

So if one of these ladies
complained about something or

suggested something, we
literally wrote it down, right?

I'm in the next ring outside the
bullseye.

Also quite small.
You had single men and women, 25

to 40, also experienced
drinkers.

But now it's a bit broader.
Now you're listening to the men

as well.
Men have lower standard, which

you'll understand if you've ever
been in a men's toilet compared

to a women's toilet.
We would still listen to

suggestions from this
demographic, not as much as the

bullseye, but we wouldn't ignore
them.

And then outside the second ring
was everybody, people who just

came into the bar because it was
attached to a shopping center or

near the train station or near
the shopping district.

And these are the people who
say, oh, you know what, you guys

should get a Red Bull fridge in
here.

And we kind of didn't listen to
their suggestions very much at

all.
So when I'm talking about, you

know, the young urban
professional who drives an Audi

and lives in Bushwick and
vacations in Goa is willing to

try Geneva or Baijo or Aquavist,
that's really what I'm talking

about is having a really
clearview of your ultimate

target market person that
doesn't contradict your theory

of the drinking occasion.
You can create drinking

occasions.
Of course, it more complements

it in that the demographic I
just gave an example of these

tend to be the leaders in their
social group.

They're the people that everyone
else asked for restaurant or bar

recommendations.
Oh, I'm going to London, where

should I go to dinner?
Which bar should I go to?

And they themselves are curious.
If you've ever read Malcolm

Gladwell's book, he would call
them connectors.

These are the people who know
more people in different world

than any of their friends,
right?

And that's why certainly with a
new brand of craft brands and

unusual brands, these are really
important people to Targets.

And 1:00, if you're talking
about drinking occasion, I think

that almost becomes more of a
commercial strategy rather than

a brand strategy.
You're trying to capitalize on

the brands already available,
the bottles on the back bar in

the warehouse, the whole stater
will deliver, the distributor

will deliver, maybe it's in some
liquor stores.

So now how do we get it moving?
And you kind of course jump on

to the existing occasions as you
see every brand in the world is

now saying, let's let's have a
sprit with brands.

XYZ's.
Many brands now that aren't even

gin or vodka are like, let's
have a martini.

In fact, Super Bueno, the number
one bar actually, according to

some awards in New York City has
an amazing tequila martini on

its menu with green chili oil in
US.

So I think that drinking
occasions almost more of a

commercial strategy than a brand
strategy, but clearly one comes

from the other.
I, I really like it.

It's basically like just to
glorify for the listeners.

Is that, that's why I wanted to
ask you the questions.

It's like, it's what I call
people that blah, blah, blah,

blah.
You know, and you, you put a

name and surname on it.
I like to call them more like

generically about, you know,
like people that like travel and

experience new things and look
for this kind of taste and so

on.
It's it's anyway good to put a

name and surname on it.
You know, like to really

visualize them and say, OK, in
this city is that kind of

person, because those are the
ones that are more likely to

experience new things.
They were the ones that are less

kind of like traditional.
And I think it also depends on

the kind of category you are
playing with now, you know, like

there are more traditional
categories, There are more like

innovative categories.
And you know, then when you want

to get people out of the usual
path, then you need those kind

of people to really bring people
along and and approach them as a

the bull's eye example.
I love that.

What I'd love to hear is that in
terms of Tiger occasion, you

touched on upon it earlier and
all this appetitivo kind of

things or the dining with
cocktails or the after dinner.

And coming from beer myself, you
know, like the usual thing is

that.
But when I work with beer brands

or when I was, you know, in the
corporate world, the beer you

it's always like the watch you
start with and then you want

people to stick to it, you know,
later on during the evening.

So you want to fight, you know,
like why don't you have?

Why don't you keep drinking
Perroni during that dinner at

Ciccones instead of ordering
that, you know, bottle of

Amarone, but for cocktails is
the other way around.

You know it.
They usually like the, the after

dinner type of people, either
the, the digestives or the, the

high energy, the whiskey soda,
the, the, whatever, you name it

in the club kind of thing.
And they want to get earlier

into the evening now and then
they start to play with the

spritz and the tonics kind of
thing now.

But what is your experience when
it comes to target occasion?

The how do you see it?
Do you see it as a moment in the

day, like on consumption?
Or do you prefer, for example,

like to really stick to a
certain cocktail like the

control, you know, with the
Cosmopolitan or Margarita or

the, you know, Campari with
Negroni, you know, like those

kind of signpost cocktails that
are making these brands famous.

How do you see that slay?
Well, again, I think that works

most effectively if you're a big
company with a big brand and a

big category and you've got a
lot of money to reinforce your

message with advertising,
whether that be social media,

billboards, TV or whatever.
You know, like it's Quantrotine

or it's Cosmo time and you could
just repeat that message so many

times that people just absorb
us.

Historically, of course,
cocktail were pre dinner drinks.

In fact, Ian Fleming for his
James Bond character erosion,

one of the Bond books that Bond
said I never have more than two

drinks before dinner, but it
must be very large, very cold

and very well made.
And what I've noticed, and this

is actually driven by Barton, by
my people as it were, you now

have people, they go out and
they drink cocktails all night

or they try to, they suck
cocktails.

They could go in the cocktails.
It doesn't change to after

dinner drinks.
After dinner, they might have a

certain point.
I certainly do actually switch

to beer because I'm here to tell
you, you certainly can't drink

up the all night.
Not big strong ones anyway.

So there's the time of day like,
oh, it's 6:00 PM.

I'm going to have a big cold
pint of beer or I'm going to

have a freezing cold martini
with my colleagues from the

office.
Then there's the mood.

Right.
The most famous example,

obviously is champagne.
As Winston Churchill said in

defeat, I need this.
In victory, I deserve this.

But most people will drink
champagne to celebrate rice.

You drink, you're celebrating.
It's champagne.

No one's like, let's celebrate
whiskey.

So those things exist as well.
And I think people have latent

awareness of them.
And that's something you can

really capitalize on if you have
the budget for a marketing

campaign.
And it can really work if you're

an ingredient too.
Like, for instance, Cointreau

have done that brilliantly well
with the Margarita.

And every few years they do big
Margarita campaigns encouraging

everybody to use Cointreau in a
Margarita.

And it makes a lot of sense
because it's so confusing now

with a million and one tequila
brand as to which one you should

use in your margaritas.
But a really easy way to

premiumize it is to use
Cointreau instead of just a

regular triple SEC or something
else.

And that's why it's really a
clear, simple message for a

consumer.
Use Cointreau in your

margaritas.
They'll be better is essentially

what you're saying to them.
And that reduces the friction

for the customer.
The customer doesn't need to

learn about mixology or history
or which is better or this or

that.
Just like Cointreau is better.

At the same way people who don't
know a lot about whiskey will

just walk into a bar and they'll
say, oh, do you have Macallan?

They, they know that Macallan is
a safe choice.

Nobody will really laugh at
them.

It's a nice premium.
Most bars or many bars will have

us.
And that's.

How I see the intersection of
moments.

OK.
I agree with you that it works

best with brands with big
budgets because they can really

go out of home, you know, ATL
campaigns and so on.

But back in the days, I always
like to think like big brands,

back in the days where small
brands, you know, when they

started and sometimes it was
kind of like a fortune, kind of

like random game.
We started to get picked by a

Randall bartender and they ended
up into a drink, you know?

You know, they most probably
never had that in mind as like,

let's focus on margaritas who
build their brand kind of thing.

But I always like to think, you
know, test and learn your liquid

will guide you on what most
likely it's going to be about.

You know, you cannot be 100%
sure, but you can be.

Are you, I don't know, botanical
forward?

Are you that kind of, you know,
elements?

What kind of like ABV do you
have?

What kind of things you play
with in your liquid and taste

profile and then flavor profile
profile and then test it out in

the market to a few bartenders,
like let them play with it, you

know, explain the
characteristics and then leave

it up to them.
And then they will come back to

you.
And then that becomes your

little focus groups.
And then you can roll it out in,

in another 10 bars and then try
it again.

And then you roll it out in 20
bars, you know, and then you

will understand if your, I don't
know, your vermouth is made for

Negronis or for, for something
else, for example.

No.
And, and the reason why I'm

asking you this question is
because I, I listened to the

episode with Robert Simonson and
after listening to your podcast

with him, I bought his book.
I mean, I had already like a

few, a few of his books, but I
bought a proper drink because he

was mentioning that there's a
lot of history in there.

And to that example of the
control, like it made me think

because I was always thinking,
what's the connection between

the Cosmopolitan and the and the
Margheriza?

And then I read in the book that
can correct me if I'm wrong, if

I misunderstood that basically
the guy, I can't remember his

name, who invented the
Cosmopolitan.

He had the kind of like he was
looking at it with the

ingredients he was using for the
Margherita and Cointreau was

part of that.
And then he basically sneaked in

the Cointreau in the
Cosmopolitan and that created

the connection between the two.
My point here is that how does

it start with the brand that you
know, at scale?

We now know that there's no
macaroni without Campari and

that there's no proper Margarita
without control, and there's no

Cosmopolitan without control.
But how did that starts when

they were smaller brands?
Well, you It's the mayor on the

head, Chris.
Every big brand is a small brand

once, like Diageo did not just
appear as the world's largest

drinks company.
And this comes back to our

earlier discussion about
constantly thinking new thing,

getting uncomfortable, learning
new things.

Like the old saying the ship is
safe in harbor, but ships aren't

built for that.
Every liquor salesman is an

opportunist and should be.
And we're now in the second

golden age of coptails.
It started in 1995 in London.

The first one started around
1820 and let's say New York, and

it ran right the way up until
the start of the Prohibition,

call it 1919.
So it had a good run.

You know, it had almost a
century.

So maybe we'll have another 70
years of coptails here.

But let me give you an example
from liqueurs.

I did a great deal of work for
the Cure Companies, Bulb and to

a lesser degree the Kuiper and
later for Remy on brand like

Cointreau.
So it was very deep in the

liqueur world.
And in terms of exports, they

didn't export a vast amount
outside Europe right to this

cocktail Mecca of America in the
late 1800s.

But after World War 2, they
began throwing all their efforts

into cocktails because they knew
the tradition of drinking after

dinner liqueurs was dying.
And I think it really continues

to die.
The idea of, you know, an after

dinner liqueur is I don't think
it's really there anymore.

Maybe a whiskey or a Brandy
possibly.

But cough fails are definitely
enjoying a high moment.

And that's something that you
should see as an opportunity as

a marketer.
Another example I'd like to give

is the story about Jägermeister
though.

Sydney Frank set up an import
company and he had argued with

his former father-in-law who
owned and ran the biggest drinks

company in America.
So his father-in-law blackballed

them.
He told everybody, industry,

don't deal with this asshole
Sydney Frank, otherwise you'll

never deal with me.
So he couldn't get any brands to

import to America, only ones.
Nobody else wants it, and one of

them was Jägermeister.
So he was selling hardly any

Jägermeister, right?
But he noticed he was selling a

little more in New Orleans for
some reason.

So he travelled down to New
Orleans and he went to a German

jazz bar called Fritzl on
Bourbon Street.

And there he found college
students, Louisiana State

University students, daring each
other to drink Jägermeister

saying this stuff, it's so
disgusting, it's so bitter, et

cetera, et cetera.
You know, you can only drink it

if you're a real man.
And he saw that and he thought,

and he switched all his
marketing to catering for young

people.
He personally designed the

machine to chill.
Jägermeister.

So it wasn't quite as bitter
because Sidney Frank actually

used to be training aeronautical
engineer before he had to drop

out of college because he didn't
have enough money.

He hired all the yeagerettes who
were beautiful young women in

tidy uniforms.
And he also hired a lot of

Jaeger dudes, which is like
muscular dudes in little shorts

as well.
And before you know it, they

were sponsoring music festivals,
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

So took a brand from being
something that traditional fairy

old German hunters drank into a
completely youth oriented brand

and built it into a billion
dollar company because he was

able to see that and pivot.
So that pivoting is absolutely

key.
And again, I cannot emphasize

enough, the longer I'm in this
business, nobody knows anything.

In fact, I think I said the last
time I was on your show, if you

had asked me 10 years ago,
what's going to be one of the

top three cocktails in the USA,
and you asked me to write a list

of 10 cocktails that could be in
the top three in the USA.

The Negroni would not even be on
my top then.

No way.
I did not see that coming.

And that's, that's the joy of
this business, really.

You're, you're never going to
get bored.

Just to answer your question
about the the Cosmopolitan, the

trader of it, Toby Cicchini, he
heard about this shop that

people were drinking in South
Beach in Miami that was called a

Cosmopolitan.
And it was like shitty vodka and

roses, lying Jews and maybe some
triple SEC or something.

And he looked at and he's like,
well, look, this is in cocktail

terms, technically a Daisy.
A Daisy is a class of cocktail,

in fact, a Margarita Margarita,
which means Daisy in English is

a Daisy.
So he said, OK, well, you make

better margaritas with
Cointreau, so I'll send triple

SEC.
I'm going to use Cointreau

instead of shitty vodka.
I'm going to use this brand new

Absolute Titran.
Instead of Roses Lime, I'm going

to use fresh lime juice, and I'm
going to change the proportions

with the cranberry juice.
And if you make a Cosmopolitan

according to Toby's proportions,
it's a remarkable drink.

It's five parts of lime 5
Cranberry, 4 Cointreau, 4

Absolute Titron.
It's an incredibly delicious,

balanced, lightly sour drink.
Most people make it wrong, but

that's really where it came
from.

I think being able to pivot, be
able to sposh emerging trends

and jump on them is where little
brands have an almost unfair

advantage over big companies.
Like a big company will still be

having meetings a year after
spotting.

Trends big time, big time and
probably I mean like to your

previous example of Jägermeister
and I I, I work with the brand

as well is the fact that it's a
family owned company.

If it was probably, you know,
listed and having like zillions

of directors all over the place,
it would have been back then,

you know, with the Sydney Frank
story, it would have basically

said like, no way, let's have
consumer research, let's have

focus groups and let's do this
kind of thing.

So it's super interesting and
and I love what you say about,

you know, no, nobody knows
anything because it's true.

It's like if it wasn't true,
there wouldn't be any X Diageo

people, X porno people, X
Bacardi people launching their

brand and not swinging to a
multi million brands in a few

years time because, you know, in
theory they knew everything

about it, you know, but The
thing is that it's so local, you

know, like I'm a big fan of
Pareto, my old Italian friend,

and it's 80%.
We know it's, you know, more or

less.
I mean, everybody knows that it

starts from on trade.
It starts from, you know,

bartenders.
You should put effort on them

because they are the one that
set the trends and everybody

more or less know the theory is
the 20% that it's, it has to be

adjusted to the local habits,
the local needs, the local

consumers.
And that's where people mess it

up because it's the same thing.
You know, like if you don't go

single mindedly on that occasion
with, you know, the ice cold

shots for Jaeger or the
Margherita And I've, I've seen

for control, for example, you
know, like the, the West

sometimes in which there was
like Cointreau fees instead of

Margherita.
It's like, you know, stick to

the Margherita, you know, like
it works.

Margherita is booming.
Tequila is is taking you on on a

ride, you know, just stick to
that, you know, instead of like

having a marketing department,
like trying to change things

because you know, my gate is
boring because we've done it for

the last five years, you know,
so this is the this is the very

interesting thing about testing
and learning because you can get

these opportunities and 100%
agree with you with the Negroni.

I tell you a funny story.
When I lived in Stockholm, my

old friend Salvatore, old like
Nepalis and friend of mine, he

introduced me to the American
and the Negroni.

I mean, I knew them, but not to
be extent that it was drinking

it.
And we used to drink Americano

because in in you know, is we
then, you know, you pay every

single spirit separately.
So of course it was it was much

cheaper to have an Americano
than than a Negroni.

And we asked Americanos and we
were getting Americano coffee

and we asked for neglected
bartenders in Stockholm, which

now is deemed there, you know,
one of the Mecca's of cocktail

culture, you know, and we were
going to cool places where I had

no idea what a Negroni was, let
alone be the end of the and we

told him like what, 15 years
ago, you know, So to your point,

I mean, now, like if I tell
people and when I, when I do

some keynote, I bring this
example of the Negroni that 15

years ago, nobody knew how to do
it.

And people laugh at me.
I remember when when I could see

ads from Campari, like there's
no, there's no Negroni without

Campari.
And I was thinking like, wow,

this is bold because nobody
drinks Megaroni.

So why why they spend the money
on it?

Ads in a magazine saying this
thing that nobody's drink

anyway, you know, But it's
because you stick to it and then

you get at some point it will
take if you really believe in in

that.
You know, again, another Winston

Churchill quote.
You should try, try and try

again.
But if that doesn't work, you

should give up.
There's no point being an idiot

about us.
I think apart from getting out

there and trying to stuff is
actually timing.

You cannot overestimate how
important timing is.

Like there are a lot of brands
now.

Very good example, recently
acquired by Brown Foreman, my

friend Simon Ford's Gin, Ford's
Gin.

And he launched this more than
10 years ago now.

But the landscape then was not
what the landscape now is.

It was very difficult for them
in the beginning.

In fact it was difficult on
their whole journey.

But if they had launched even
three years later, it might not

have were. 100%.
Right.

And anybody can give you an
example of timing.

I remember quite some time ago,
maybe six years ago, I was

speaking to some flavor
scientists about fireball.

You know what Fireball is?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't.

Yeah.
So this is a brand.

It was created from a range of
liqueurs founded in Canada

called Doctor Mcgillicuddy's
Schnapped.

And one of them was a cinnamon
schnapped, a cinnamon liqueur.

And the Sazerac company bought
it, the whole range.

And they saw this and they said,
OK, we're going to just

concentrate in the cinnamon
liqueur.

We'll call it Fireball because
on the original labels, the

Little Devil and Fireball,
football, millions and millions

and millions of cases, right?
It sells in college town.

It's shot.
I mean, fireball isn't a

credible success story.
But I was talking to these

flavor scientists and they're
like one of them said, oh, I

developed a cinnamon Jim Beam 20
years ago, so we're talking

maybe 26 years ago in total.
And she said, look, I don't mean

to boast, but it was way better
than fireball.

But that was not the time.
I do think that's why it's

important.
As a liquor brand owner, as an

entrepreneur, you have to try a
lot of stuff and it won't all

work.
And again, that's why it favors

entrepreneurs who do not have to
satisfy endless oversight boards

and boards of directors and
bosses and whatnot.

Like the major success story of
the last 23 years in liquor is

Quito's Vodka from America,
which is now I think, I think

it's maybe the 4th best selling
international vodka in the

world, right?
It's still privately owned.

And a major part of those
successes that the owner, whose

name brilliantly is Tito
Beveridge, he could jump on any

trend because he owned the
company and ran the company.

So he saw that people really
like dogs.

So he said it was a dog friendly
vodka.

He he star that college students
in Austin, TX were beginning to

be very aware of gluten, so he
was one of the first to put

gluten free on the label.
So he could jump on every little

bandwagon and if it didn't work
out, he could jump right off

again.
That kind of decision making

would have taken two years in
Diageo or Perdo or Bacardi.

Like these companies are like
cruise ships or like container

ship.
They can ships so much, but they

can't turn.
They're not agile, they can't

invent stuff.
Little brands are more like.

Speed boats.
That's all for today's My Fair

Drinks podcast.
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This is Chris Mafael, and
remember that brands are built

bottom up.