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I Love Your Stories is a soulful conversation series hosted by artist and creative guide Hava Gurevich, where art meets authenticity. Each episode invites you into an intimate dialogue with artists, makers, and visionaries who are courageously crafting lives rooted in creativity, purpose, and self-expression.
From painters and poets to healers and community builders, these are the stories behind the work—the moments of doubt, discovery, grief, joy, and transformation. Through honest, heart-centred conversations, Hava explores how creativity can be both a healing force and a path to personal truth.
If you’re an artist, a dreamer, or someone drawn to a more intuitive and intentional way of living, this podcast will remind you that your story matters—and that the act of creating is a sacred, revolutionary act.
[MUSIC]
What happens when science meets art and a
global crisis sparks a creative calling?
Welcome to this episode
of I Love Your Stories.
I'm your host, Hava Gurvij.
And today I'm joined by the talented
photographer and New York City native,
Carol Schiraldi, who moved to Texas in
the early 90s to build a successful
career in technology.
In this conversation, we explore her
journey from software
engineer to full-time
artist, the rich intersection of art and
innovation, the role of AI in helping us
understand our own humanity, and the
moment it all clicked, literally.
Welcome to the show, Carol.
Now, quick word from our sponsor, and
then we'll get right back to the show.
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All right.
Welcome to this episode
of I Love Your Stories.
I have a very special guest with me
today, Carol Schiraldi.
Welcome to the show.
And I really appreciate that you are
willing to come and share your wisdom
and experience, and we've had several
conversations, never exactly one-on-one,
but in a group setting.
And I'm always struck at your ability to
sort of like look at the whole thing from
above. First of all, you have this
amazing ability to
just sort of condense a
meandering topic into the main points,
and also just offer this really fresh
perspective.
And so as two artists who I'm pretty
certain have very different backgrounds,
we're going to get into your background
in a minute, and that's going to become
very clear.
But at the same time, I think there's
also a lot of similarities in how we
approach our art and
how we approach just life.
And that's what I'm
excited to talk to you about.
So welcome to the show.
Thanks.
Thanks for having me.
I'm really excited to be here.
And I want to start out by
congratulating you on the podcast.
I think it's going great.
I know I've been enjoying the episodes
thus far, and I'm really honored to be
your next guest.
And I wish you all
continued success with it.
I think it's great to just have artists
talk in conversation because the art
community contributes so much to society.
And a lot of times the art world is just
shut off from people.
They don't have access.
You know, they can't talk
to artists on a daily basis.
So this brings a little bit of our world,
I think, to the folks.
So when I was starting the series and I
was talking to people who have done
podcasts, I was asking
for advice on the podcasts.
One piece of advice that really stuck
with me is you wanted to feel like
somebody is eavesdropping
on a private conversation.
I don't know.
And I really love that idea because
what's really most interesting is when we
get down to the granular specifics of
somebody's experience.
And it always seems that when you get
really specific and really personal,
it resonates most with others because
that's the shared experience.
So let's start with if you can tell us a
little bit about yourself.
I know you have you've
had a career in tech.
I'd love to hear about that.
And also you're a photographer.
So maybe you can talk a little bit about
how long you've been doing it.
The floor is here.
Sure.
Oh, sure.
Well, I have to start out by saying I'm a
native New Yorker now living in Texas.
So I think kind of interesting turn of
events and it's really tied both to
the tech industry and the photography.
I was born in New York City, so I have an
interesting background.
Like my dad was speaks spoke 11 languages
and was an attorney and an accountant.
And my mom used to
ballroom dance on roller skates.
So I had this sort of like brain, right?
Brain thing going on.
And I'm like, I do have an analytical
side, but it also has, you
know, there's a ballroom.
I can't dance very well, but there is a
ballroom dancer in me
in in there somewhere.
So, um, and then when I was, when I was
growing up, I wasn't
sure what I wanted to do.
I was in the major of the month club and
I liked all subjects in
school, but I couldn't
figure out what I wanted to do.
And I still haven't, I still refuse to
grow up and I don't know what
I want to do when I grow up.
I hate to say that because now I'm old
and it's like, well, you shouldn't figure
this out by now, but nope.
So, um, so I was looking at school and
trying to figure out, okay, like, because
after high school, you
got to college and it's like, okay, do I
want to go to journalism school?
Do I want to do this?
Do I want to do that?
And somehow I got the idea that I wanted
to go to engineering school.
Um, you know, I went to engineering
school and, and for a
while I was a physics major.
I actually have a minor in physics.
I, I like science.
I like general subjects.
Like I like science.
I like to read a lot.
I like certain things.
Right.
So I gravitated towards certain subjects.
And then when I was in school, I realized
all the computer
programming majors were getting jobs.
Yeah.
I'll go into the computer field.
So I started in
computers and I liked it enough.
It was always a good job.
Um, the computer industry in New York
city has always been sort of nebulous.
So I decided I was going to move to Texas
where Austin was really picking up again.
It was really the ground
floor of the tech industry here.
So on a whim, I sort of picked out a job,
you know, I applied for a job and got it.
And I moved down across the country, um,
away from my family.
I didn't really know anybody in Austin
and just picked up and moved for a job.
And when I got down here, I decided I
wanted a hobby to get and to
know my, my community more.
Cause I didn't know, you know, my, my
father's, my mother's, my mother's family
all lived in New York city.
So I would get the whole history of New
York and everything.
When I came to Texas, I didn't know, like
I knew, kind of knew like
the Alamo, but that's it.
Like that's all I had of Texas.
So I thought I want an excuse to like
explore my new community.
So I, I met some folks who were doing
photography and I thought, oh, that's
well, pick up a camera.
And once I picked up a
camera, that was the end of it.
It was like, I felt like that was
sometimes like Joe McNally, the famous
photographer talks about this.
He says the moment it clicks, right?
My life just restarted.
I used to be a
photographer as well, as a major.
And I got my camera, like
in, you know, secondhand store.
And from the very first roll of film,
like I've already been an
art major by that point,
not knowing where my vision fits and with
the first roll of film, it just clicked.
So when you said that, like, I'm so glad
you mentioned that because it's,
it doesn't have to be like a passion that
you've had your whole life, you know,
like from when you were a kid, it's just
at any point, you
know, like, and who you are
and the art that you do and the way that
you think, and I'm going to
get more into that because
sort of talked in
generalities about computers.
So I want to, I want to hear a little bit
more about the actual work that you did,
but I feel like the skills that you, the
skills that you acquired
both in college and then
in the real world, like
career wise, inform your art.
And yeah, yeah, I think so.
I mean, I had two careers
for a very long time too.
Like I worked as a programmer for a very,
very, very long time.
And then I also, I moved to Austin in 92.
So from the moment I moved here, I moved
here in August, actually,
it's my anniversary of moving.
So it feels weird, but in my first show,
I think I took a class
because I didn't know
how to work my camera.
And then my first show was I think
November of the year I moved.
And then I was in my first national
juried show in early
of the following year.
So like January, February.
So not only did I feel like the camera
was what I was supposed to be doing,
but I felt like as a photographer, I had
a lot of success, like early
on artistic kind of success.
My work was getting into shows and I
didn't struggle as a photographer really.
It just, everything
just felt really natural.
Like it really, this was what I was
supposed to be doing.
And I always tell, I have some friends
who are in the major of the month club
and they tell me all the time, they're
like, I don't know what
I'm supposed to be doing.
And I always say, I feel super lucky
because I knew what I
was supposed to be doing.
I found what I'm supposed to be doing.
I just have to figure
out how to make it work.
But I always feel very grateful that I'm
not one of the people that doesn't know,
that still hasn't figured it out yet.
Right.
I just have to figure out like how I can
make this work and how I can redefine me
in the photography spectrum.
Because it's a big umbrella of
photography and art in general.
So where do I fit in?
And I feel like there's a
place for me that's able.
And this is what, you know, this is like
people talk about
finding a purpose in life.
And I feel like, I feel
like I kind of did that.
I just want to figure
out how to make it work.
And that's like a lot easier problem.
It's a lot easier hill to climb than not
knowing like, should I
be a surfer or should
I be a scientist or
should I be an astronaut?
You know?
I want to pick up on all of those things
because you've like hit
on all the major sort of
issues that come up for artists.
But let me just go back.
So you, your career was in tech.
You did programming.
Were you like in a manager position?
I never wanted to be a manager, but I was
what they'd call a tech lead.
So at one point I was an
architect from computer.
So I would design things.
I would design programs.
I would design systems of
interconnected programs.
So I would say like, oh, this team has a
program code over here and our code is
going to fit in this way.
The reason I asked wasn't was because I
feel like every time I talk to you,
I have a sense that you're really good at
seeing the full picture
and understanding how
different things need to connect.
And that's a really, I mean, that's a
skill and that's a talent.
And I think, you know, it's something
that you can't teach
someone to be good at it.
You can teach someone to like do it, but
to like really be good at it,
you have to have that kind of brain in
the first place to be
able to see those patterns,
make those connections.
I'm curious if those skills and that
talent, how they show up in your
photography, in your art?
Well, I mean, I like to think about this.
There is a way they sort of connect.
And when I was a programmer, it's very
interesting because a lot of times you
get a spec when you're a programmer.
So you get this spec, we're going to
write a program that does this, you know,
maybe it makes widgets or whatever.
I won't go too techy and bore you, but
you know, let's make widgets.
Okay.
So you're making widgets.
But what you have to figure out is, do
people really want widgets
or what do they really want?
Like, you know, I hate to use the Spice
Girls analogy, but there's
that song they have, like,
you tell me what you want, what you
really, really want.
Right.
Because sometimes people, they say they
want one thing, but they
really want something else.
Right.
And so the idea from a programmer
standpoint is because it is hard to
implement code and hard to
implement, you know, technology.
You don't want to give someone something
they really don't want.
You have to give them
what they really want.
You have to solve their problem.
You have to anticipate their problem.
Yes.
Yes.
And they're not always going to tell you
what their problem is.
They sort of hint at it, but they don't
sometimes they don't even know.
Right.
So it's this mystery
that you have to solve.
And with art, it's the same way.
Like people who buy art, people who
appreciate art, like a lot of people,
when they buy art, you think, oh, they
just buy it because it looks good.
But no, they're buying it because they
want to, you know, when people come to
their home, they want to show the world,
like, oh, I support
the local art community.
Or I want to be different.
Or I want to be colorful.
I want to be happy.
I want to be mood, whatever.
You know, so there's a there's this
underlying like and
photography is very much like that.
There's the world that we see, but then
there's sort of the
underneath the undercurrent.
And a lot of times the image of the best
images come when you tap into the under,
you really dive into the subject and
capture the essence of it, not just, you
know, put and fix up your hair
and put on your Instagram pal.
And let's, you know, the
best portraits are compelling.
Everything is connected in life.
So you don't have like sometimes and you
go through life, especially when you have
like you have a career in tech and then
you have a career as an artist and they
feel so like on different like two
different parts of the spectrum.
But then when you start talking about
like, well, first of
all, you're the same person.
So there's that connection.
You're using the same brain.
That's another connection. And some of the same thought patterns and
just your your personality and what
you're good at what's
interesting to you comes through.
So you were talking about with these
widgets and this idea of figuring out what somebody really, really wants.
In, you know, especially in the tech
world and I think it's still going on
right now, like you could say, like the
most successful apps are the ones that
anticipate what some what what's, you
know, somebody wants and like, oh, I didn't even know I wanted this until I see that it's possible.
You know, that kind of thing. So, you know, that's that's what's
successful in the tech world.
Absolutely.
You're not you're not just creating
something that does something better.
You want innovation.
You want to do it in a whole new way.
Complete game changer.
You know, that's how you
that's how you get to the top.
That's why people like IBM want you because you can think that way. Art in art.
It's a very similar thing in a way that.
But but first it's also just like so art
is the form of self expression.
Yes.
And when you pick up a camera and it just
clicks what's really actually happening on the inside on that.
Level is that there's always been, you
know, a part of you that's been wanting
to be expressive and maybe it has been
expressing itself through through
science, through tech, through innovative widgets, you know, through community interactions, all that.
But suddenly it's like a faucet like
there's a whole suddenly like or like a
road that's been closed this whole time
suddenly opens up and you're like, whoa,
this is this is amazing.
Like this is just like straight from
from, you know, what I want to say.
I have the tools to express it directly.
And so in that way, it's like. You're finding your voice.
You may have not even known
that you were looking for.
Yeah, absolutely.
All right.
And you know, that's why like in and it
resonates so much with me because I was
in art school in college,
but I had so much to say.
I wanted. I knew I wanted to express it artistically, but I just couldn't find my voice. I just couldn't find my
medium for a very long time.
I couldn't find my
medium, you know, and then.
And so when I came across photography and
it clicked, it was because it was just
like a direct transmission.
Yeah, it is.
This is something another photographer
that I admired when I was in college said
to me about photography.
And it really stuck with me all these years. And I was like, I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this.
I'm not going to do this. I'm going to do this. And I'm wondering if you feel the same
way or if you can add to it is that it's
you're looking at a three dimensional
reality and you're translating it into a
two dimensional image that captures the
essence of what you're seeing.
And a lot of times,
especially the more you do it.
You don't like you get a glimpse of
something that you see and it, you know,
it's it's too quick for it for you to say
like, oh, this isn't like but but you
capture it with, you
know, in the photograph.
And then when you look at the photograph,
you're like, you realize
like, yes, that's what I saw.
That's a lot of that happens with
especially like now I'm doing some motion
photography or I do long exposure
photography at night.
So you get things moving and you get a
sense of, you know, I did a whole series
of work shot while driving.
And that's another one of that where you
get when you're driving, you get a sense
of the world moving past you.
But you really don't you
don't see an instant of it.
You don't get one frame of it.
So photography is in essence like it's
telling a story in one frame.
So you only have one
one frame to to to say it.
You know, it's not like a movie where you
can build characters over time.
You get you know, that's it.
It's one one piece.
And then like you said, the composition
is immediate, right?
It's you know, because in a way, a lot of
people say, oh,
photography, you just push a button.
But what that means is the composition
just comes right out.
There's not a lot of technique that
hinders your composition.
So it's really a way to create and play
with compositions, you know, instantly.
It's like instant
gratification in terms of composition.
Yeah.
Not that composition like finding it.
If you kind of abstract it,
what you've found is a pattern.
And then also a lot of photography, and
this is going to sound weirder, too,
but a lot of photography is not so much
what you see, but it's
what you choose to leave out.
Yes.
Yes.
Gosh, I like you, you know, talking to a
photographer, all of the stuff that I
was thinking when I was doing photography
is coming back to me.
So this is another thing that I've heard
is that when you're
like in painting or drawing
is an additive process.
You start out with a blank canvas and you
putting marks on it.
Photography is more of like a subtractive
process because you start
out with the whole world
and you correct from that
just the thing that you want.
It's still mark making on some level,
especially like in the old
days when we had silver gelatin
film, you know, you are making marks,
you're photograph,
you're drawing with light,
which is very true.
Yeah.
Yeah. So you left your
career in tech how long ago?
I used to like two years ago, but I had a
long career in tech.
One of the things too is I I'm always
been a lifelong learner.
Yes.
And I got to the point in tech where I
was in a situation where
I wasn't learning a lot.
I wasn't like it wasn't refreshing it.
You know, my learning
wasn't I wasn't growing.
I wasn't learning new stuff.
I was really just doing the same role
over and over again.
And yeah, there's a
lot of the new AI stuff.
And so that was kind of
interesting for me to learn.
But it wasn't really enough of a, you
know, it's not enough of
a draw to, you know, to
really pull me in.
And so I was just talking this week
because I did a bunch of I
juried a bunch of work for
other artists.
And one of the things when you jury work,
a lot of people come and
say, why did you pick that work?
You know, and I talk about,
you know, what how I pick work and how I
do projects and what a
cohesive body of work is
and all of this.
And one of the things I came up with was
I said to one artist,
I said, you know, with
the with the camera, especially one of
the ways you can make a
body of work is you can ask a
question for which you
don't know the answer to.
And you can use your camera as an excuse
to go out and learn
something about the world.
And when you do that, you get a very
personal body of work,
even if the photos look like
they don't match or whatever, because you
have that the question,
the learning is part of the
process, the discovery
is part of the process.
And I think that's in part why I wanted
to do more photography, more full time,
because it does have that discovery,
whether you travel and
take photos, or even if you
stay in your studio, it's the idea that
you can ask a question
for which you don't know
the answer and discover
and explore with your camera.
Was it scary, like deciding to leave?
Um, that world behind and focus on this
new basically a new career.
It wasn't it for me, it wasn't scary.
It felt like it ran its natural course.
It was kind of weird.
Like we had the pandemic, I was working
from home a lot, and everybody
started go back in the office.
And it just felt like, you know, I was
really in the in an office
doing the same thing I've
been doing for 35 years or whatever.
And it was like, you know, I'm getting
older, I want it to do
something that I want to do.
I want to do so I really want to explore
more, I really want to see
the world more, I really want
it.
I've never done photography full time.
It's time for me to flip and
maybe pursue go down that path.
And so it felt oddly
enough, it felt very natural.
And it felt like it was okay, like it was
just it just felt like
it was time, you know,
I feel like I need to do an entire
episode on how the pandemic
like we curved us all or either curved
complete 180 or like
finally gave us that kick in the
ass to go in the direction that we've
been sort of like,
you know, sort of like,
well, thinking about because the you
know, the same thing we all
we all had so much time on our
hands to just sit around and, you know,
and have an opportunity to kind of
indulge in something
that was maybe up until now more of a
hobby or more of like
something that you did occasionally
and suddenly you have all the time in the
world like whether it's
baking bread or I know there
was all kinds of truth.
Absolutely true.
Yeah, I yeah, you know, and I think for
artists and I might be
generalizing, but I feel like that
a lot of artists are introverts to some
degree. I think, again, I
might I might be generalizing,
but there even if we're not all
introverts, we certainly for
the most part, unless you're
working with a crew and your art
involves, you know, a sort of
that that kind of like group
dynamic. But most of us work alone and
spend a lot of time alone.
And, you know, by necessity,
we feel comfortable spending a lot of
time alone. And in fact, having nothing
else to do but spend
our time alone making art, you know, I
think I think that's the
theme for a lot of us this kind
of like, aha, how can I make this happen
even after the pandemic?
We got to know ourselves because we were
home alone. And, you
know, and that and that really
and we got to think about what what's
really important, you
know, like you said, it was a
kick in the ass. It got us the silver.
What is really important? What do I
really want? You know,
because what happens is when you work,
you get in this habit and
pattern of just I go to work,
I come home and get the mail, I do this,
I do that. And you run
your life and you never stop
and think about why am I really doing
this? What is this for? What is the end
game? What, you know,
you know, is this what is it really all
about? You know, and when
you have time to step back and
really do that navel gazing and think,
what am I doing here? It
hits you that you say, well,
wait a minute, I've never, you know, and
I reached a point where I was like, well,
if I don't do photography soon, what am I
going to do it? You know,
tomorrow's not guaranteed.
So, you know, I thought, well, that would
be a good, you know, it's a
good time to now is as good
time as any, you know, what inspires you?
How do you stay inspired? And how do you
happen to creativity?
For me, I, I've never had a problem with
inspiration. Like,
that sounds really weird.
But for me, I've always I get all these
ideas for projects, and I
can never implement them.
Like, that's my problem. I have too many
ideas and not enough, like,
you know, time in the day.
So, and if I do, if I do have a
roadblock, or I have a writer's block or
a block of some kind,
I take it as a gift. Because I feel like
my brain's always thinking
like 900 miles an hour. And it's
like, it's a chance to slow down and
think about, okay, what do I really want
to do? But for me, I
mean, ideas come from I get other
artists, I just get asked questions, I
read a lot. I go, you know,
I got nature is a big inspiration, music
is a big inspiration, you
know, I think part of me,
because I grew up in New York with such
as that background that I found
inspiration in a lot of
different places. You know, New York is
like we had the food, we had
the theater, we had the, you
know, I remember, I used to go to theater
when I was a kid a lot, you
know, the museums. So there's
a lot there that just inspired me in a
lot of way. And when you're
young, and you like you hang
out in a museum, like you don't think
about it, you just think, oh, that was
just the museum. But
now that I'm older, I think that left
some sort of a mark. And, you know, it
forged me as a as an
artist in an odd way. So I think, you
know, I spent I lived in Manhattan for
five years, and then
on on Long Island for another three, four
years, five, I spent, I
spent a lot of time in the area
I'm there, long enough to get to that
point where the fact that
there's museums everywhere, and art
galleries was a given like I have, I had
a membership to museums.
And I lived on the Upper East
Side. And on a hot day, sometimes I would
go to what? Oh, gosh, the Met. I would go
to the Metropolitan Museum,
just up the street. I'd go into like the
Egyptian. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Because it was so cool and air
conditioned and quiet in there. I used to
go in there just to like,
get away from the heat and
the noise. And I wasn't the only one.
There were quite a few years
old that and then I know there's
been times when I like popped into the
Guggenheim just to use the
bathroom. And then I was like,
well, as long as I'm here, what's here
like, oh, there's a Picasso exhibition.
Okay. So you take it
for granted when you live there. And you
don't realize until you move to another
part of the country,
where I live now, it's a pretty
sophisticated town, University of
Michigan, a lot of intelligent
people here, a lot of like tech
businesses here, Google's here, there's
the university, the hospital,
there's a lot. But as far as culture,
it's a little bit of a
desert. There's very little,
and yes, there's a few things in Detroit
and a few more if you go to
Chicago, but that's a day trip.
That's not like I'm going to run in
because I need to get away from it.
That's a planned thing.
And that's something you do if you
already have, like if it's
something that you were doing as a
kid or if there's a week, like if you're
already interested in art.
One of the things that I came
across in Manhattan is that everybody
just goes to galleries,
like gallery openings.
People just show up at museums and not
just tourists that are
there for, but it's part of
the fabric of life. So when you grow up
with it, you absorb that
culture, that part, that art is
everywhere and art is part of culture.
And I think that that's so
fortunate that you have that.
And it's just really unfortunate that
it's not more widely recognized.
Yeah, I was talking with another artist
recently about this as well,
but one of the subjects that
came up was that a lot of kids today,
they don't teach them how to draw in
school. They don't teach
the music. Our education system is really
failing them in a lot of
ways. But what happens is people
now think that if you can draw, if you
can play an instrument,
it's some kind of black magic,
or you have some kind of gift. But they
don't realize, like my
father in his time, he learned
how to draw in school, even though he was
an accountant or the
lawyer, they all had to learn
how to draw. And I remember when I was
doing art, as an adult, even as an
artist, he would say,
"It's all just shapes, don't you know?"
And I'd be like, "How do you
know this?" And he knows how
to draw because it's like, "Well, I had
to learn in school. Didn't
you learn in school?" No,
I had to learn as an adult. And I'm lucky
that I came from that
environment where I spoke a
foreign language, I played a musical
instrument, I took art, I
went to museums as a kid. I had a
rounded education and I think that's
really important. A lot
of people harp on the stem,
stem, stem, like you have to do math,
otherwise it's not a real subject. And
creativity and imagination is really
underrated in society. I'll
get off my soapbox, but...
It's a good soapbox. Let me shift gears
and I'm going to ask you,
what are you most
passionate about right now?
So right now, I've been thinking, I want
to do an interesting
project. I wanted to start a new
project. I want to do something new. And
I've been thinking, again, I
started that questioning of,
ask a question that you don't know an
answer to. And with all the AI
stuff, I'm starting to think,
I may do a project around, not using AI,
but around AI, talking
about AI's role with humanity
and all of this. And so I have a...
Again, I always have a series of
projects. I was reading
something recently about Point Nemo. I
don't know if you heard
my... I put it on Facebook and
everybody attacked me. So now they all
think I'm going to do a Point Nemo
project. It's kind of
funny. I didn't know either. And that's
what's really interesting
about it. So there's a place,
I guess it's a place called Point Nemo.
And what it is, is it's the
farthest place from anywhere
else on earth. It's like in the middle of
nowhere. And they put this buoy to mark
Point Nemo. And it's
sort of like off the coast of South
America, but it's not really right off
the coast. It's like in
the middle of the ocean. And it's like,
when you're here, there's nothing around
you. You're isolated.
And this sparked my imagination. I kept
thinking, what an
interesting concept for... So I came up
with the idea of the view from Point
Nemo. Not Point Nemo itself, but what
would the view look like?
But then not just going to Point Nemo,
but the idea of if you were isolated,
what would that look
like? What is the concept of isolation?
What does isolation look like? I think...
I love the philosophical aspect, the
questioning of that, not
the actual place, but what it
represents. Whether it's the isolation
from humanity or just
isolation from distractions,
isolation from... You fill in the blanks,
whatever it is that you
would like to question
what it would feel like to not be
surrounded with. That's
really, really interesting.
Yeah, that's basically what I want to do
is a project where it's more
philosophical. And it's
not just like... Because a lot of my work
is, I travel and I'm
inspired by nature and that's nice
work. But I really want to do something
that's more thought
provoking and kind of out there.
Maybe not even sellable, but just from an
artistic point of view. Yeah,
self-gratifying and just
really just ask a question and do an
exploration. Just ask
those big questions.
I feel like... You sort of mentioned
that, but I feel like
AI, we all can talk about
the bad things it's doing. It's doing a
lot of bad things. It's
probably environmentally
even destroying point nimo. But on a
conceptual level, AI
offers this unique opportunity to go deep
and ask questions and get
answers that you didn't even
know you wanted in a way. And I'm
starting to embrace it
more and more myself. And so
it gives me hope when I know that
creative people are passionate about
doing something with AI.
Because we need that balance because
there's a lot of greedy people and
downright evil people
who are utilizing AI. And so we need to
sort of bring the balance
back with people who are
wanting to use it for good and for
creativity and for
self-expression. So that's encouraging.
Just like the pandemic taught us about
ourselves, I think AI can
teach us about humanity.
Absolutely. That is so well said. See,
that's the thing. You're so
good. I will talk for like 15
minutes about something, blah, blah,
blah, blah, and then you come
in and in one sentence you'll
be like, "This is what you mean." That's
perfect. I love that. Thank
you. Yeah. So I want to pick up
a little bit about this balance because
that was something that
I'm kind of backtracking.
Sure. The balance when you have a
full-time career and a passion that
you're really devoting,
let's just say like the equivalent of a
full-time as an artist, how
do you find that balance? And
I know the pandemic was instrumental in
getting you to finally
make that decision, but
it must have already been on the fence.
Oh yeah. For you too. I'd
love to hear your take on that
because I think that that is a challenge.
That was something that I found
incredibly challenging.
And I continue to find it challenging
even now where my career is
my art and my passion is my
art, but they're still not in... They're
sort of at odds with each
other. Can you talk about that?
Yeah, sure. It is very hard. Again, it's
one of those things I
read a book once called...
This guy did a book called... He talks
about it. It's called
The Sex and Cash Theory.
And it's really interesting. He talks
about it. He says,
"Everybody has their sex or something
they want to do, they like to do, they
enjoy to do." And then
everybody has their cash,
which is something that they get paid to
do. And in a way, the most successful
artists are the ones
that they can blend their sex and cash.
And he talks about taking
an actor. When an actor's
starting out, maybe they have to wait
tables. So that's their cash.
And their sex is they get to
do dinner theater or art. They do a play
or something. He said,
"Then if you look at an actor,
he used John Travolta at the time. He was
still a popular actor, I
guess. But if his sex and cash
are very different, because maybe he has
to do a summer blockbuster
movie. So his sex now is still
in the movies. It's still his art, but
it's still not something he
really wants to do. Maybe he
really wants to do an art house movie.
And he has to juggle the needs of, "Well,
I have to do a summer
blockbuster just so I can stay in the
industry and get it. Have all the
producers like me still,
feed the beast. But then I can do this
art house project on the
side, what I really want to do."
It is a very delicate balance. And I
think the artists who are
most successful in many ways are
the ones who can walk that line and say,
"Well, okay, I have this
thing I like to do versus the
thing that pays me or that can keep me in
the industry." And the more you do,
for me, it's interesting because my
fields merged. When I started, tech was
very tech and art was very
art. And then photography became
really... Now it's AI, it's digital
processing. So everything I did
in tech really is coming into play in the
photography with emerging.
And I always thought it was...
I watched this happen. I saw two
desperate fields merging
together. And I thought, "Wow,
they're really blending." And it's
happening a lot in a lot of other fields.
AI is spurring that on.
Writing and technology are merging.
There's a lot of hybrid fusion. It's like
fusion food in a way.
Things are blending. Yeah, I love that.
So basically, to be happy in that you
have to be a successful hooker.
Yeah.
Everybody's a hooker. Some people's
hooking is legal.
That's all. It's really...
I hate to be blunt, but that's it for
you. Where is that... When do you feel
like you are hitting it out of a park as
far as being a hooker?
I hope nobody just picks up
the episode right from that.
I love you when your hooking kicked in.
It's too funny. Yeah, well, this year I
did a talk at the SPE
conference, which is the Society for
Photographic Education. And I actually
talked about... It was very, very kind of
an interesting talk.
I talked about the history of photography
in terms of image
manipulation, but also image
processing and also technology AI. How
these things all... And
history even. How they all blend
together. And I realized that's why they
picked me to give that
talk, because I have this weird
tech background that not a lot of
photographers have. But then also,
because I work in technology
is a bigger picture also. And then also
just my expertise in
photography. And I think if I could
do a project like that, that's where I
would hit it, if that makes
sense. Does that answer your
question? Oh yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. And that takes me to my final
question. Sure. And it'd be
a really good place to end this is, what
is your personal definition
of success? And I guess you
could say to be a good hooker, but in
general. So for me, I think you find
success. Sure. I think of
success and maybe because I'm a
photographer, but I think of success as a
tripod. It has three legs.
One leg is maybe financial success or
just traditional success.
And as an artist, traditional
success. Does your work sell? Does your
work resonate? Do people
want to put your work above
their couch? That's one leg of it. One
leg of it is artistic success. Are you
doing artistic projects
that fulfill you, that nourish your soul,
that make you... To put you in the
realm... A photographer
an artist. Are you working in the field
with other artists and are you bringing
something to the table?
And a lot of times that doesn't bring
about monetary success,
but it's very fulfilling.
Right? That's the sex part of the sex and
cash equation. Right? And
then the third one is really
centered around the community. Right? Are
you bringing something
to the community? Are you
saving the whales? Are you teaching
people? Are you doing something to better
the world? Because even
if you have your sex and cash, if you
just keep it to yourself,
it's kind of worthless. Right?
So you... I mean, hate to use the
analogy, but if you're that hooker, you
got to take it to the
streets. I love this analogy. It keeps
getting better and better.
So I feel like I'm seeing like
this like Venn diagram. So there's like
financial gratification,
self-expression gratification,
and social contribution. And the place
where they all meet,
that's your life's purpose.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's my view,
but maybe that makes sense.
That's fantastic. That's fantastic and a
wonderful place to end this conversation,
even though we could keep going for like
another hour or two. Thank
you so much for coming on the
show. Thank you. Continued success to
your podcast. I thank you so much. Thanks
again for tuning in.
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