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"Journey to the Sunnyside" is your guide to mindful living, focusing on health, wellness, and personal growth. Each episode offers insights into topics such as mindful drinking's impact on lifestyle, the science behind habit change, and more. Through conversations with experts and personal stories, the podcast provides listeners with practical tips and knowledge for a more balanced life.
Hosted by Mike Hardenbrook, #1 best-selling author, neuroscience enthusiast, and habit change expert. This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the #1 alcohol moderation platform. If you could benefit from drinking a bit less, head over to sunnyside.co to get a free 15-day trial.
The views expressed in our podcast episodes do not necessarily represent those of Sunnyside. We're determined to bring diverse views of health and wellness to our audience. If you are concerned with your drinking, please seek the advice of a medical professional. Sunnyside, this podcast, and its guests are not necessarily medical professionals and the content shouldn't be viewed as medical advice. In addition, we never condone drinking in any amount.
Welcome to Journey to the Sunnyside, the podcast where we have thoughtful conversations to explore the science of habits, uncover the secrets to mindful living, and, of course, inspire your own mindful drinking journey. This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform. And if you could benefit from drinking a bit less, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free 15 day trial. I'm your host, Mike Hardenbrook, published author, neuroscience enthusiast, and habit change expert. Today's guest is Katie Nestle, also known as soberish mom.
Mike Hardenbrook:Katie shares her journey for navigating the mommy wine culture and finding a balanced, soberish lifestyle. She'll discuss the pivotal moments that led her to reassess her relationship with alcohol, tips for starting a moderation journey, and why traveling sober is her secret weapon. This episode is packed with practical advice and inspiration for anyone looking to change their drinking habits. Okay. Today, I'm joined with Katie Nestle.
Mike Hardenbrook:She's here, and she goes by soberish mom. So I'm really excited to hear her story. And I'm always excited to have a guest who is a woman. For obvious reasons, I can't bring those insights and perspective and social dynamic that a woman brings. So I'm really excited to have you here for that reason as well.
Mike Hardenbrook:So, Katie, thanks for coming on.
Katie Nessel:Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Yeah.
Mike Hardenbrook:For sure. We're gonna have some fun. So let's just start with your journey. So tell us a little bit about what inspired you to start. Well, I guess with the drinking, you know, changing your habits, but also like the soberish mom, the soberish mom, profile that you go by online on social media.
Katie Nessel:I think it was many years in the making. My my career from a very young age, like from in my twenties, was pretty much always in, like, hospitality. Waiting tables, cocktail waitressing. I worked at some really high end restaurants. That's where I got a lot of, like, my training and tasting spirits and wines and things like that.
Katie Nessel:And very heavy drinking culture, of course. And from there, I went on to event planning. So I worked for, like, convention center here in town. And then I worked for Seattle Magazine, which is kind of our glossy high end life style publication doing events and marketing. And so I I organized, like, for example, one of the, like, first largest craft beer, tastings and awards in Seattle with all the craft breweries.
Katie Nessel:We did a huge Washington Wine Awards event and celebration, and I was, you know, kind of in charge of coordinating all those. So throughout, like, my entire career, very immersed in, like, the culture of drinking and the industry of drinking. After that, I went on to work for one of the largest hospitality management companies that's in this area, Managing hotels and restaurants, tourist attractions, and I ran PR and social media. So coming up with, programming, new menus, everything, you know, in hospitality, very again, just very focused around drinking. And hospitality workers are, like, some of the highest risk groups for alcohol dependency and issues.
Katie Nessel:So, it just, you know, it was just very normalized. Heavy drinking was completely, like, just a normal thing. Like, I thought my drinking habits with my second daughter. Thank god, because I would have just been drinking nonstop, I'm sure, during COVID. It was such a stressful time for so many people.
Katie Nessel:But I was pregnant during that that time. And I also was handling a lot of crisis communications for my company. It was very stressful, really high high anxiety kind of jobs. And so I decided to take a break. I became a stay at home mom.
Katie Nessel:I had a 2 year old toddler as well. And so my family went down to 1 income. My my husband was working and traveling a lot, and I was completely isolated with my kids. And we have very little family help, very little support, and I started drinking a lot. I noticed just like slowly those habits were like changing from like my habits before my twenties were more like parties, going out.
Katie Nessel:We went out a lot. Like, I was in I was at a lot of events and things. And then I slowly became, like, a daily drinker. Like, at 5 o'clock, I still have a whole second shift with my kids, and, like, I have earned this reward of drinking. You know, we're very, like, reward driven people.
Katie Nessel:So I, just noticed, like, that habit starting to change and becoming more of, like, a daily every night reaching for, not every night, but most nights reaching for a drink. And so it was about a year ago that I was like, you know, I was in my I'm in my late thirties. I think this changes especially for women as you approach your late thirties. Your body processes alcohol differently. All like crap.
Katie Nessel:My anxiety was high. My, you know, my sleep was terrible. My skin was dull. I was just like I knew deep down that, like, the drinking was causing a lot of issues for me. And so I decided to do, like, a 10 day reset with 0 expectations, 0 plan on where that would go, And then here I am, here I am now.
Katie Nessel:I started soberish mom like a month after starting my sober curious journey. So I was very vocal about it very early on. And that was about a year ago. I started, yeah, the the the cleanses in January. I had the idea of Soberish Mom, like, within a month, and then I launched it in March of last year.
Mike Hardenbrook:I love it. I love this story. I can identify with so many different things that you said there. Oh, yeah. All the way so the the service industry, you know, in college, I bartended.
Mike Hardenbrook:In grad school, I bartended. I bartended in London, which is a very heavy drinking culture.
Katie Nessel:Oh, I've heard in Europe, especially UK, it's like people are getting swashed at lunch. It's like a very big drink.
Mike Hardenbrook:Yeah. So actually funny story is that I used to I was a they call them a barman in London because you basically do everything. And I've worked in a pub right below the BBC. So they would come down
Katie Nessel:Oh.
Mike Hardenbrook:At lunchtime when I'd be bartending, and they would have, like, 3 to 4 strong pints and then go back up to their office. And I used to think there is absolutely no way that they went back other than just stared at their screen and waited till 5 o'clock, which, by the way, most of the time they'd be back after that shift back down at the bar.
Katie Nessel:Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.
Mike Hardenbrook:Do you think do you think that you had to reprogram yourself a little bit on, like, your view of alcohol with that background in the service industry?
Katie Nessel:Out or curious about starting their journey is the education piece was, like, the game changer for me. I, again, thought, like, quote unquote, my drinking habits were normal and that, you know, having a few drinks in in the evening was really not that big of a deal. And so when I started educating myself around the health risks of, you know, moderate to heavy drinking, which is what I really was doing, it's heavy drinking, it was like I was like, what? I was like, oh my god. When I found out, like, you know, the alcohol is a class one carcinogen, it's linked to cancer, it was it was really shocking to me.
Katie Nessel:It wasn't like I knew and I chose, like, ah, whatever. Roll the dice. I I was like, oh, I I think this is a, like, public misinformation crisis. Like, I think a lot of people and what I hear a lot of my accounts, people were like, I never knew. I didn't know these things.
Katie Nessel:And that's how I felt too. So it was definitely a reprogramming, learning new habits. Like, I I always try and frame I'm very careful about my wording, like, saying, like, I didn't have a drinking problem. I had a drinking habit, and that was a habit. I had to work really hard at changing.
Katie Nessel:And, and I did, and I'm so glad I did. I'll never go back. But, yeah, it was a it was a complete shift for
Mike Hardenbrook:me. For sure. It definitely was an education thing for me. I remember thinking when I was in my mid twenties, I went for a hike once and I can overhear these 2 older gentlemen talking. And one says to the other way, you should be fine.
Mike Hardenbrook:You know, you don't smoke. You don't drink. And I was, like, hiking. This is before, like, you know, Huberman's bringing all this stuff to light. And I remember thinking, well, we know smoking's bad, but what's the big deal about drinking?
Mike Hardenbrook:I mean, they sell it in the stores, so how bad could it really be? Right. So, I mean, it's funny how far that educational or lack thereof really was in the marketplace for people to consume, and now it's coming to light a lot. Yeah. In your story, do you think you know, you had this progression.
Mike Hardenbrook:So it went from party to nightly wine at home, which by the way, that's exactly what happened for me from grad school to nightly wine. You know, the only way I could turn it off or say it was, quitting time was, you know, open a bottle of wine. And that turned into a habit. So I'm like, that's really the way I looked at it and how I kind of reprogrammed my habits to change that and break free of that. Was there, like I don't think there was a a rock bottom moment for you, but was there like an moment maybe in your thinking?
Katie Nessel:You know, it was not, yeah, my my was never a rock bottom. There was never a pivotal point of, like, I put myself at risk or my kids at risk or I was do you know, it was affecting my parenting in this horrible way or there was no there was no rock bottom. There's no story. For me, my pivotal moment was that, Huberman Labs podcast that you're talking about. When I was 10 days into my cleanse, I was like it was hard for me in the beginning.
Katie Nessel:I was really bored. Like, boredom is your enemy when you're trying to change your habits and drink less. And I remember telling my husband, like, I gotta get out of the house. I I gotta get out of the house. I put my, you know, ear pods in.
Katie Nessel:I went for a walk. And this podcast that you mentioned, I I've linked on my blog too. I I, like, recommend everyone listen to it. Is, was that was my moment. It was like, that's a long clock.
Katie Nessel:It was like 2 hours. I walked for 2 hours, and I listened to the entire thing. I was, like, blown away. I think I think a lot of people see headlines of alcohol binge drinking, alcoholism, liver disease, you know, the the the concerns, and they think, well, that's not me. That's somebody who's drinking a Fitbit Vodka every day.
Katie Nessel:This doesn't apply to me. And so when I started educating myself on, like, moderate levels of drinking, and the the risk I have to put my health at, that was a moment for me. I I don't I haven't shared this actually, like, ever on my my, Instagram account, my blog, but that during that time in January when I was really starting to reevaluate my habits, I had to a lump in my breasts that I had to have removed. It was completely benign, not cancerous at all, but it, you know, had to go to the hospital. I was under surgery, anesthesia, and, like, it was enough to really scare me into, like, well, this is not worth it at all.
Katie Nessel:I mean, it's it's it's one thing when it's out there. Like, you might get cancer when you're in your sixties. It's another thing when women are statistically, you know, having alcohol related diseases, illnesses earlier. Cancer continues to rise. And when you experience that firsthand and you actually have to ask yourself, like, is this habit really worth it?
Katie Nessel:Is the risk worth is the reward worth the risk, the risk worth the reward? And for me, that was also a pivotal moment where I was like, I, you know, I watched my mom go through several rounds of chemo and I didn't want that to be my fate or for my kids. If there's any way for me to avoid that, if there's anything I can do to decrease my risk, it's I'm gonna do it. I just didn't know that alcohol was one of those things. Oh, yeah.
Katie Nessel:So that was also Yeah.
Mike Hardenbrook:There's no doubt about it. I mean, the information out there, there's no way to put it other than it's scary, especially when I think back to, oh, my twenties when all of us guys were sitting around, you know, getting ready to go out. We all had our own 12 packs of Keystone Light or whatever cheap beer that we were buying at the time. Oh, yeah. So yeah.
Mike Hardenbrook:I mean, you Yeah. It's good to educate yourself even if it is a little scary. That way you can make the changes. So you have this moment, and a lot of people will go the abstinence route. You know, like, that's it.
Mike Hardenbrook:I'm done. Or they choose moderation or mindful drinking as we say here at Sunnyside.
Katie Nessel:Yeah.
Mike Hardenbrook:What made you choose moderation over abstinence?
Katie Nessel:Yeah. You know, I get that question a lot. I would say almost daily, I get that question. And I I think the most important thing is that it's it's a very personal decision for everyone. And you certainly have to do the work, do the research, and and figure out what's a healthy balance for you, what's, like, a healthy lifestyle for you.
Katie Nessel:For me, I I just believe in moderation. Like, I I know going to McDonald's is terrible for me, but, like, I still go once in a while. I I just I believe in balance in everything. And the truth is once I started cutting back and being really mindful about how much I was drinking, using the app to track and, like, see the data, I cut back way more than I planned. And so that's why I'm so encouraging to people to just start, and and then you'll see where your journey takes you.
Katie Nessel:For me, having the option to drink or at least knowing like, okay, not telling myself, my god, I can never have a glass of champagne again in my life, like giving myself that option helped me make long term change. And I and I see a lot of people and friends who do dry January, do sober October, and I think that's amazing. I think you should absolutely do those things. But then they go right back to their old drinking habits within a month or 2. And I I just didn't want that.
Katie Nessel:I really was looking for, you know, small wins, a system of accountability, and, like, celebrating a long term change for myself. Something else, because my my personal journey has been very health and wellness driven, reducing my risks, harm reduction, I believe in. In that podcast, like Huberman Labs, they talk about you know, there's no study that shows having 1 to 2 drinks a week is going to have any sort of negative long term impact on your health for most people unless you have, like, a genuine circumstance. So once I heard that, I was like, well, that's it. That's for me then.
Katie Nessel:I am not I'm I'm going to make sure I'm doing everything I can to lower my risk while also giving myself the option huge level of risk. If, you know, if I wanted to have huge level of risk. If, you know, if I wanted to have zero health risk in my life, I would never drink alcohol. I would never go to McDonald's. I would never eat bacon.
Katie Nessel:I would never drive on the freeway. But most people aren't gonna live their lives that way. And the truth is, you know, complete abstinence is a nonstarter for a lot of people. And I think that's why my count resonates with people is that it's the entryway of, like, okay, well, maybe I, like, don't wanna be sober, but, like, I don't even know what that means. But, like, okay.
Katie Nessel:I could probably cut back here and there and and see how what that does for me. And along that journey, you may choose complete sobriety. There are many times where I have, like, okay. I have my 2 drinks for the week in the Sunnyside app, and that day comes and I'm like, oh, like, oh, I don't I'm like, good. I don't need to, and I don't have my drink.
Katie Nessel:And, that is like the less you drink, the less that hold has on you. And I I think that's what a lot of people, especially women, are looking for, the freedom from that hold of alcohol. And and how do I find that? How do I take my power back from alcohol? And so that's why, for moderation, it was absolutely the right Yeah.
Mike Hardenbrook:Right choice. I love all that. And I think one of the beauties of moderation is that it's an easy entry point and you don't have to define your forever, goal. Right. It might change over time.
Mike Hardenbrook:You know, like, for me, I actually I tried to moderate when I was trying to change my habit, and I looked at it at habits, stance as well. Because I remember thinking, well, if I'm addicted to everything, I I'm actually I like sweets, but I have I'm pretty good about resisting. And I can go and sit in an ice cream shop and everybody get an ice cream and me, not get anything. So I took a habits approach. For me, I'm not very good at tracking.
Mike Hardenbrook:So, like, before Sunnyside was around and even before the concept of moderation, when I would try to do that, I I wasn't tracking things. I wasn't planning. I wasn't doing any of the things that would get me to the other side. What got me to the other side was actually taking an extended break, for 90 days. And then I actually, and I write about this in my book about, you know, changing moderate to complex habits take a minimum, you know, average on studies show 66 days, sometimes 90.
Mike Hardenbrook:But for me, that's what actually changed it. And then I brought mindfulness into my moderation. But I'm curious, so you've chose, I want to do this moderation things. What were the first steps that you did and took on your own, I guess?
Katie Nessel:Yeah. Yeah. That's great. It's it was fascinating hearing your ears. And I I will say, like, those first few months, they're they're so hard because you are retraining retraining yourself to learn a new habit.
Katie Nessel:So that's interesting. The 66 days, I've never heard that. That's fascinating. So, so, yes, with the 10 day cleanse, I I do think, like, your period of abstinence, a period of abstinence, whether you choose couple weeks, a month, 60 days, whatever, is really important because it will show you you will learn so much about yourself in that in that amount of time and how quickly you will see a change in your in your body, your physical, and mental health. So for me, immediately, you know, my sleep improved.
Katie Nessel:The anxiety issue, I had really high anxiety. I had no idea how correlated that was to alcohol, you know, days after alcohol is out of your system even. And so
Mike Hardenbrook:It's incredible. That the anxiety is just and it changes so fast and you say, wow. Wow.
Katie Nessel:I feel amazing. Yeah. I mean, with it was about a week, a weekend, and I was like, oh my gosh. And all these things start changing. My gut health, like, I just deal I dealt with a lot of gut issues.
Katie Nessel:I was like, oh, those are all gone. It was like, that was like amazing. So, it reveals a lot. And, it's so I always, like, recommend start with a a dry period. Even if it's just a couple weeks, just, like, get through that.
Katie Nessel:And then tracking, my habit tracking. I didn't even I didn't know it was called habit tracking. I hadn't found Sunnyside in the beginning. I used a calendar. And I wrote you know, I started tracking.
Katie Nessel:I did it a different way. So I had always tried to track days, but you're always gonna start over at 0. It's like a a very negative, you know, affirmation. So I started tracking how many drinks I didn't have. And so I would write down, like, you know, pretty much every Monday, I'd have 3 drinks.
Katie Nessel:So if I had 0, I would write down 3. And then on the weekends, I would always have 3 drinks a night. Let's say I only had 1. I would write down 2. And I started adding that up.
Katie Nessel:Now, obviously, I know I can do that in the sunny side. It was so much easier, but I just started tracking it by hand. And then I saw at the end of the month, that number was like 48 drinks that I had saved myself. Even though I had had a few drinks that month, I was like, woah, that is awesome. And I could celebrate myself.
Katie Nessel:And I could celebrate that win. It became a system of accountability for me. Jumped to finding the SunnySide app. Obviously, the data in there is so much easier to do. You don't have to, like, do all the math yourself and the tracking of, like, how many calories you save yourself and your averages going up and down are just, like, fascinating.
Katie Nessel:So for sure, tracking is like a a big one for me. A big one for me. 3rd, I already mentioned education. Educate yourself on the risk. Listen to some podcasts.
Katie Nessel:I have several. You have several. You know, read a book or 2. Just just educate yourself so you know the risk you're putting yourself at. That's a big one.
Katie Nessel:And then, like, 4 is, like, boredom is so it's just it's the devil, and you are gonna have a lot of free time on your hands when you quit drinking. And so that was really surprising to me. I had no idea how much time alcohol was stealing away from me. So when I got that time back for in the evenings, in the early mornings, I had to fill that time because I was I was really bored. And, I fill that time with fitness a lot.
Katie Nessel:It's like a big passion of mine. I think that helps people stay on track too. Early morning workouts, finding community with group fitness or at your gym is, like, so important to me personally. If that's not your thing, find something else. Find a new hobby.
Katie Nessel:Take on a new project at work. Start a blog like I did. I mean, it's like find things to fill your time because the boredom is the heart still to this day is the it's like the hardest trigger for me. When I'm out socializing, like, I have very little desire to drink. Like, I love you now.
Katie Nessel:I love seeing people. I like remembering my conversations. I don't like feeling a brain fog when I'm out. And so I don't drink a ton in those situations. It's boredom for me or being, like, stuck around my kids, which is when I, like, started drinking.
Katie Nessel:A lot. I love my kids. I love being with them. But, like, how many times can you play Candy Land? Only a few times.
Katie Nessel:And so it's like just finding things to keep you on track is just so important. So, yeah. So avoiding the boredom. And then the the last tip, important. So, yeah.
Katie Nessel:So avoiding the boredom. And then the the last tip I'll say, which I did a really bad job about this, is is talking to your loved ones. There's a lot of shame around it, so I didn't talk to a ton of people about it. My husband was pretty much, like, one of the only people told. And thank god he kinda quit drinking a little, maybe, like, a year before I did.
Katie Nessel:He kinda would drink once in a while, but he gave up his daily drinking. So that was really helpful for me. It's very inspiring. And, having a partner in that really helped keep me on track. I think it'd be hard if he was down in margaritas next to me and I'm trying not to drink.
Katie Nessel:Like, that would be really hard. So having your partner, your loved one, your family, like, know what's going on is they're gonna support you. They're gonna gonna show up for you. The people that really matter, the right people will show up for you, and don't be embarrassed to to talk to them about it. I did this very public thing by starting Soberish Mom.
Katie Nessel:Most of my best friends, most of my family didn't know about it. I just, like, launched it. I was, like, I was too embarrassed. I I couldn't figure out how to explain it. And so I was like, well, they'll just see.
Katie Nessel:They'll just, like, see the account. They'll see the bug, and they'll, like, get it. And so, you know, very quickly everyone was like, what? What is this? You know?
Katie Nessel:And it was this, I wish I had And I think they felt a little like, why didn't you tell me? You know? Why would you not talk to me about this? And it was it damaged some of my relationships, and, I had to recover those and and explain, you know, and talk to people. And I just I was embarrassed.
Katie Nessel:So I think, like, try and get over that. Your your true friends will show up for you and, you know, get get support get support. People to not even really hold you accountable, but, like, they kinda do. Once you put it out there, it's like not like I'm expecting anyone to be like, Katie, don't drink that. But, like, it's just it helps once you have kind of some levels of accountability.
Mike Hardenbrook:Yeah. No. It Yeah.
Katie Nessel:Those are my kind of No.
Mike Hardenbrook:Those are all great. I mean, the going back to a couple of things that you said, so the boredom thing, you know, not only have I experienced it, but I'm in quite a few groups that I just I try to help where I can. So I'm always paying attention to what people are saying, and boredom is, like, the top of the the list of complaints. And
Katie Nessel:so
Mike Hardenbrook:But I remember thinking I don't know that I put it as boredom in my own experience, but it was this feeling of I gotta do something or, like like, something was missing that I needed to fill. And I think it is just like a big part of that is just keeping yourself busy, number 1, but doing things that are, like, enjoyable. So it's tied to a reward so that you're, like, actually, you know, bringing more joy into your life. And, Yeah. I thought I think it's so insightful that on your own, you figured out that day counting wasn't gonna be the thing for you and that you started tracking it in another way.
Mike Hardenbrook:So I just I think that that is, like, so intelligent and insightful that led to something for you because I know for me, you know, like, I write in the book and for me going in extended period, there's a lot of things I did to get to the other side of that. But when I included them in my book as start of the, sort of the instruction, I had to take into account that, like, how self defeating it is when you don't stick to that. And how would I make it so that people can get to the other side of 66 days, without, like, maybe getting to day 60 and starting all over and just being like, I give up, I'm done, which a lot of people do, you know, on dry January, they straight during dry January and they get a weekend, they go, well, better look
Katie Nessel:next year, I guess. That was me. That's why I did a
Mike Hardenbrook:10 day cleanse. I was year, I guess.
Katie Nessel:That was neat. That's why I did a 10 day cleanse. I was like, I can't make it a month. Are you crazy?
Mike Hardenbrook:So I mean, so I wrote in that basically if you slip up in the 1st week, go back to 1. But if you slip up in the middle of it
Katie Nessel:Yeah.
Mike Hardenbrook:There's actually studies that show that if you break if you're on a path to a habit and you break that for a very, like, one day or one time or a couple times in an extended period, that it actually doesn't disrupt the habit formation that you're on. So I I built a little slip ups in there. People try to stick with it, but definitely, and the other thing is, like, on the abstinence model to that point is, it becomes that part of their identity. That if like, let's say it's 2 years down the road and that something happens, then all of a sudden it's really self defeating. And so I just want to commend you for that unique approach that you took on your own.
Katie Nessel:Oh, thanks. Thanks. This is a lot easier once I found the app and, like, last you know, at the end of the year and seeing something like, 100 of drinks that I chose not to have, it's like it's so powerful. I I can't explain. It's well, it's just like you explained.
Katie Nessel:It's like like it's really reinforced.
Mike Hardenbrook:Well, it allows you to moderate, still enjoy something that you that you want in your life in in a more healthy way than it was before and also see the wins, you know, stacking up there.
Katie Nessel:Yeah. Yes. Yes. Watching that number grow is is so great. And I talk to my followers a lot about that.
Katie Nessel:I get a lot of just DM. You know? People a lot of people are not ready to come out and comment on posts and things like that. So I get a lot of DMs that I love hearing from women mostly. Some men do.
Katie Nessel:And and it's like, okay. I started, you know, with the app or I started with my calendar, and I make a little star on every day. And I add up my numbers, and it's just like it's not yeah. It's like I think for me, it was like, I didn't know of any other approach aside from, like, AA or counting days. And so I just I didn't know where to start.
Katie Nessel:That's why I started sober small. It's like I don't see myself reflected in any of these sobriety accounts, in any of you know, I'm not part of mommy wine culture anymore. I was, but, like and so that's why I that's kinda why I started the account is I just couldn't I couldn't see myself in any of these other accounts. And so, yeah. So the the the moderation, I think, is, like you said, a great entry point.
Mike Hardenbrook:Well, obviously, you're a mom. Obviously, you like, obviously, you like wine. So let's actually talk about the mommy wine culture and how that's, you know, give give me the low down on that because actually, I really wanna learn more.
Katie Nessel:Oh, man. Oh, man. I was mommy wine culture. I made funny videos. I mean, I've always kinda worked in social media and been interested in, like, creating content.
Katie Nessel:So I would make funny videos of drinking with my kids. I I was the epitome of mommy wine culture. I really bought into it. And, this normalization that you have to drink to serve it. Do you have kids?
Mike Hardenbrook:I have 3.
Katie Nessel:Yes. 3 kids. Good lord. Okay. Amazing.
Katie Nessel:So this, like, narrative that you have to drink to survive parenting was one that I really bought into. And I think because I was a stay at home mom and very isolated, mommy wine culture started this phenomenon of women online connecting with each other, connecting through funny t shirts, funny, like, cups in mommy sippy cups. You know, oh, we're filling our tumblers at kids' sporting games with wine. It was a way for moms to connect. And jump, you know, okay, maybe you're like having wine with your girlfriends at a week and half hour.
Katie Nessel:Whatever. You know? Totally fine. I think, unfortunately, what started out as, like, the funny glass of wine in the evening has led to a rising level of alcoholism in women, you know, rising level of alcohol related deaths and illnesses in women. And just them realizing that it it what started out as I think the sad truth is that mommy wine culture started out as a defense mechanism of women who are exhausted.
Katie Nessel:They're working in and out of the home. They're taking care of the kids. Especially COVID really compounded this. So a lot of women who traditionally are the designated parents, you know, have their full time jobs and now their kids at home too. You know, it's just like they're blown away by how much they have to juggle.
Katie Nessel:And so blowing off a little steam with a glass of wine and relaxing with your peers and relating to other moms, something women were really seeking. And so, unfortunately, now that we've realized, like, the health risks and that glass of wine turned into a bottle, it's it's it's kind of blown up in a way I don't think anyone ever imagined. So, as more information is being shared, I think platforms like Instagram, TikTok, the knowledge sharing is is really powerful. Unfortunately, also, there these are huge platforms for entertainment. So entertaining videos of moms drinking is, like, funny to a lot of people.
Katie Nessel:It was funny to me. I I used to love that shit. So, like, that is but now these platforms are also, you know, a way for people to get information out there. So that's why I'm passionate about sober to moms. Like, just sharing education of here's what that wine really is doing.
Katie Nessel:And you think it's helping you with your bedtime routine. You think it's helping you manage your kids, but it's actually making your job a lot harder. And that is what I slowly learned to be absolutely true. So I think just continuing to, like, knowledge share and about all the health risks is is a big part of why I wanna continue doing the account, because the normalization of of binge drinking among moms is just, like, astounding. And you you can feel pretty pretty quickly too if if you're not one that's drinking.
Katie Nessel:So I wanted it soberish mom to be light, funny. I share a lot of stuff with my kids, but, like, I never incorporate drinking into that because I want it to be a safe place for people who don't wanna see, you know, parents, like, drinking a ton around their kids. So Yeah. Do
Mike Hardenbrook:no. No. It's all great. It's really enlightening. And, actually, I didn't know the origin story.
Mike Hardenbrook:So, I'm glad that you were able to share that. Do you think that Oh, yeah. Do you find with because obviously, on social media, you probably attract a lot of other moms and women. Are they having difficulty, like, from almost a peer pressure standpoint from breaking free of that?
Katie Nessel:Yeah. It's it's really challenging in the beginning, I would say, and when you may meet new friends. I'm I'm a, like, a younger kid mom, so my kids are just starting school. I'm just starting to get involved in school activities, PTA meetings, things with other moms. And that can be really challenging when all the other moms are drinking, and you're like, oh, I don't I actually don't really drink.
Katie Nessel:That that can feel very isolating. And I would say my advice to people who are feeling that is, you know, you're gonna start your your friend group might change. And that even with my old friends, but that's changed in the last year. That that's hard sometimes. And, like, the people that you gravitate towards aren't gonna be the drinkers anymore.
Katie Nessel:Drinkers like to hang out with drinkers. I know because I was one. And so I you know, that the people that I gravitate towards now at those social settings or the friends I can hang out with the most, they're not drinkers. And that's you know, so your friend group, the people you're interested in spending your time with, that that might change. And that can be really hard, especially if it's an old friendship that you're kinda leaving in the past.
Katie Nessel:So I would say, like, just never forget, like, your why, why you're doing this. And, you know, I'm I I try and come from it, like, from a completely judgment free space, and I think people can feel that when there's no judgment. I think people know. Like, I'm not walking up to someone being like, did you know that that glass of wine actually is like terrible for you? You know?
Katie Nessel:I mean, it's like I don't care if anyone else is drinking. You know? Nobody that loves me cares that I'm not drinking. But, you your friend group will probably change a little, and the people that you wanna spend your time with is is they're gonna have different priorities. So that can be tough, but you will slowly gain your confidence back in social situations.
Katie Nessel:It was really hard for me in the beginning. Now I'm just like, oh, I don't really drink, or I'm like, oh, I have an early morning. I mean, it doesn't have to be a whole big thing. I just don't really wanna get into it with people. A lot of people already know because I'm so very small, so I'm not I'm not in that situation a lot.
Katie Nessel:But, it's like I just try you will get your confidence back in those situations.
Mike Hardenbrook:Yeah. I can no. No. No. That's great.
Mike Hardenbrook:I can identify because it's like I mean, I wrote a book on alcohol and yet, unless somebody wants to really ask me anything, it's not it's not my place to sort of share. I'd rather just be a little bit stoic and quiet and, you know, let people do whatever they want. Because whenever people decide that they wanna make a change, if they do, they know, you know, who they can talk to or, that's on them to make that decision. It's not on anyone else to try and persuade them.
Katie Nessel:Yeah. Totally. And a lot of women, you know, they'll tag me in their stories and things, and they'll they'll still maybe a month after they've been chatting with me or have found the account, I'll see them come out in their stories because they'll tag me and they'll say, like, hey. I just, like, wanna share. I, like, kind of you know, I haven't been drinking this last month.
Katie Nessel:I'm feeling really good. And they'll they'll share their personal journey when they're comfortable. And I always comment. I'm like, you have no idea how inspiring that is to people. Like, you they may not message you.
Katie Nessel:You may not hear from them, but you are inspiring others with your actions. And that's I you know, I've never had a job where I felt like I'm inspiring people. It's like it still kinda feels weird to me now with a soberish mom, but it's like you you you'd have no idea the impact your own actions are gonna have on the people around you. And, like, so many people now do wanna talk to me about it and come up to me or message me. Friends, people, acquaintances from the last 10 years of my life, like I've heard from in the last year.
Katie Nessel:And it's it's, like, it's so amazing that you can be part of the solution to normalizing drinking less. You you really can just by sharing your own story. And I think, you know, the reason I'm very vulnerable on my account is, like, the best way to make other people feel comfortable is just be really honest about your journey, and and it lets them be honest with themselves too. And so, that's, like, what I feel most proud of is, like, it's the ripple effect of now other women sharing with their friends and family. I'm doing this thing.
Katie Nessel:I feel great. Hey. Like, I had no idea about these risks and and sharing that. And and and that's why I think social media is so can be so powerful and, like, a source of good, for inspiring.
Mike Hardenbrook:No. That is inspiring because I think that you're giving a voice to a lower lower barrier of entry to maybe some something that somebody was thinking about for a while, but the entry point was way too high as in you gotta give it up forever if you're actually thinking about it. Right. So and that ends up prolonging that, you know, and so that's difficult. And so I think that that's amazing that you're doing that and it's interest and and it probably feels really good to see other people
Katie Nessel:impacted. Thank you. Yeah. It does. It's, like, amazing.
Katie Nessel:I'm so sorry about my lighting.
Mike Hardenbrook:You're totally fine. You look good to me.
Katie Nessel:I can try to go for it.
Mike Hardenbrook:So you do a lot of travel. Actually, I wanna talk about this because, we're a nomad family sort of, and we've been traveling a lot. Sometimes we'll stay extended periods for a couple years, but then right now, we've been on the road for about a year. We stay in a place for a couple months to get to feel where we are. And come with travel is is definitely, drinking.
Mike Hardenbrook:And I know that personally because I used to plan out, okay. I'm gonna take a break here, you know, when I was doing my trial and error period. And I'd be like, well, I got a trip in next month or in a couple weeks. There's just no way that I'm gonna be able to stick to any of what I'm trying to think of right now. Talk a little bit about, like, how travel was before and maybe how it's changed since you've made this adjustment.
Katie Nessel:Yeah. Travel. So, yeah. Travel was always I mean, statistically, I think it's like 40% of Americans when they travel will drink more than their normal amount, and that stat, sure, is higher than even reported. Like, I would always use travel as an excuse to drink a lot, and defend that to, you know, to its core.
Katie Nessel:Like, well, we're on vacation. Like, what do you mean? And so, I now I have had now that I have a few sober trips under my belt or and sober ish trips under my belt, it's like going on sober travel is the most amazing thing you can imagine. You're actually rested after your trip. You've actually, like, made memories that you are going to enjoy forever and and actually remember.
Katie Nessel:And, you will never regret it. I mean, you're you're never gonna wake up in the morning and be like, man, I really wish I had drank last night. You will never regret it. And even that was a little bit of
Mike Hardenbrook:a hard problem. I wanna back that up because there's been times when I've been in the grocery store and I thought about it. And I was like, today I already committed. Today, I'm not drinking. And I've always said to myself, you know what?
Mike Hardenbrook:I've never regretted not drinking. But I almost always, if I break a commitment, well, I'll say I always, if I break a commitment, will regret it the next day.
Katie Nessel:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You do. And I and I'm I'm I'm like, I I try not to feel shame, like, ever when I have setbacks, but, like, you do.
Katie Nessel:You've you're disappointed in yourself. And this is this is not related to travel, but earlier you'd asked me about pivotal moments in my journey. Another pivotal moment was during early on, it was like a Friday night and I wasn't drinking, which was very rare for me. This was a new habit. And I got a call.
Katie Nessel:My mom had fallen, and she was being rushed to the hospital. Nobody was around except me. And I jumped in my car, and I was driving there. And I was like, thank God. I'm totally so like, no alcohol in my system.
Katie Nessel:If I had had my normal drinks, I would have had a cocktail, I would have had a glass of wine in me, like, I would not have been able to drive safely. I would not be have a terrible headache when I got. I would have felt awful. I would have been totally useless. And as I was driving, I was like, oh my god.
Katie Nessel:I was like, I've never been glad that I've drank too much ever in my life. And at this moment, I am so glad that I have no alcohol in me. So, that realization of, like, you will never regret not drinking seems obvious, but I was like, oh, this is amazing. So yeah. And that applies to travel too.
Katie Nessel:It's like you're missing out on so much of your trip if you spend it hungover or, you know, kinda checked out from being with your loved ones or kids, whoever you're traveling with. And and I do, you know, I I think when you approach travel, I I share some tips on how I drink less or stay on plan in travel. You will find you mentioned this too. You find joy in different things. You are gonna find joy in the activities you're doing.
Katie Nessel:You're gonna you're gonna plan different activities. You're gonna be, like, more active. You're gonna have more energy to do much. So, so much more. So, when you're approaching travel, like, schedule up.
Katie Nessel:Find a bunch of activities to do, find the times you're most likely to drink. I've never been a day drinker. I'm I my hours are, like, 4:30 to 7. Those are my hours. If I could find an activity for my family, bowling, out picnic, whatever, during those times, out of the house, not at happy hour, somewhere else, then I'm good.
Katie Nessel:I'm totally golden. So and then the next morning, I wake up and I'm like, I'm so happy. I have the whole day ahead of me. I feel fresh. I get my workout in.
Katie Nessel:I'm like, everything lines up in a in a better way for me. So, plan activities and then and then have a plan because I I usually do still drink on vacation. So, like, we just were on spring break, and I shared, like, my sunny side plan with my followers. And, like, I drank more that week than I had in a long time. It was my birthday.
Katie Nessel:We were on vacation. So there was a lot of things that kinda stacked up, but I definitely drank like half the amount I would have before. So, you know, it's it's it's all very personal. Like, how I I probably had, like, 4 drinks, 5 drinks that whole week when we were gone. That's a lot for some people.
Katie Nessel:That's nothing for a lot of other people. So everyone's gonna have an opinion on, like, how much or how little are you drinking? You just have to find what you're comfortable with. Do I think you need alcohol to have fun on your birthday? No.
Katie Nessel:Do I think you need alcohol to have fun on vacation? No. But if you choose to have a drink here or there, that's totally your prerogative. So after I came back, then I adjust my Sunnyside app, and I'm like, okay. I'm gonna do a dry 10 days or I only have one drink the next, you know, few weeks, whatever.
Katie Nessel:And and that's and then I don't feel shame. I don't feel bad. I don't feel guilty for drinking on my birthday. I just don't. And so, that's that's where I feel comfortable with it.
Katie Nessel:If you do, if you are waking up feeling a lot of shame and guilt and, like, regret every single time you drink, sobriety might be the right answer for you. You will only find out though if you try and try and try and try.
Mike Hardenbrook:Yeah. It's definitely about the planning. And, also, I can identify with the the trip that you you know, taking those trips. Let's say, for example, I used to actually live in Nicaragua. And so when I lived in Nicaragua in my 20s, it was surfing.
Mike Hardenbrook:It was tons of beer till 3 AM, you know. And then then I would take trips, to other countries. So I went to Guatemala and it was mostly, you know, it was some sightseeing during the day, but it was definitely, like, more of a let's go out and party and maybe we'll check out some stuff the next day. And then I went back, this last summer, and I just decided I wasn't gonna drink on this trip and, just see how it went. And, you know, like, I woke up early.
Mike Hardenbrook:I I do, I do pen drawing. So I drew like a courtyard, went out, walked around the streets before everyone was up. So I, like, owned the city. Then I went and, like, climbed the volcano in the afternoon, and I would have missed out on all of that. And, you know, even if somebody doesn't want to say, I'm not gonna drink this whole vacation, maybe, like, try an experiment if you always drink on your vacation.
Mike Hardenbrook:Just say, like, I'm not gonna drink the 1st night when I normally would or maybe, like, I'm only gonna drink half the amount and I'm gonna plan something the next day and then see what the benefit if the if the benefit outweighs the couple drinks or or a lot of drinks in the evening, it might get you motivated. I think it's better to do it Yeah. At the start because you'll probably wake up feeling crummy. Your decision fatigue will hit in in the evening. The the actual, like, withdrawal effects of the alcohol will actually produce cravings.
Mike Hardenbrook:So you might really have a hard time doing it past that. But I think it's all that's what it's all about. Moderation is experimentation, and everything's personalized. Like, it might be less drinks. It might be less days.
Mike Hardenbrook:You know?
Katie Nessel:Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That I love I'm gonna start changing my tip to being that first two nights or worst night at least. Like, that's a great point that, like, starting out the trip not
Mike Hardenbrook:drinking too gives you that taste of, like, oh, this
Katie Nessel:is what the whole week could be. You know, you know, scientifically not having those withdrawals and those that chemical, like, draw out of alcohol that, is that's that's a big part of, like, my learning too is, like, you you will be kinder to yourself when you really understand what alcohol is doing to you mentally and physically and the the addiction. Even if you're not an addict or you have alcohol you know? Addiction and abuse, it's the way it, like, is messing with your brain and your chemicals, once you learn about that too, it allows you to be a little kinder to yourself of, like, this is a really powerful thing. It's powerful stuff.
Katie Nessel:So, you know, I really like that tip of, like, starting out your journey wherever your travel is taking you.
Mike Hardenbrook:Yeah. Well, a lot of people don't realize, like, the anxieties is actually withdrawal effects even if you're a moderate drinker. The next day your sleep is affected. And I've said this on some other episodes, but the next day, your your sleep's gonna be crappy that night you drink. But it's actually your body is working so hard to back to get back to homeostasis that the chemicals in the brain are actually, like, so out of whack that you're not gonna sleep good the next day.
Mike Hardenbrook:And people don't even realize that that is actually, like that's all and same with the cravings. The cravings, 12 to 24 hours after your last drink, are at their peak, which is usually around happy hour to evening time, which is what that was the hamster wheel I was stuck in. And I didn't realize until I actually got together with my naturopathic doctor who worked in treatment facilities, educated me on that. And I realized, wow, it's not just like changing and designing my behaviors, but I it's really understanding, like, what's going on physically inside of me and saying, you know, that's happening not because you're weak, you're getting that craving because the alcohol is kicking in right now and telling you it wants it. Yeah.
Katie Nessel:Right. Yeah. And and not telling not being like, I just don't have the willpower. I just I guess I don't I just can't. I don't have the willpower to do this.
Katie Nessel:It's like, it's not about will power. It's about, like, what is actually happening in your body. So, yeah, it's that's that's really impactful when when you learn about that and educate yourself on, like, truly what alcohol is doing in your system. And I find, like, my after especially, like, during that trip when I drank more than I had in a long time, it was, like, 2 or 3 days after. Because I was like, okay.
Katie Nessel:I'm back. I'm in my good habit now for a day. And then like the second or third day, I was like, oh, this is like, That was kinda a little harder than I thought. So it's like, yeah, you you again, experimentation is very important, but that I knew. I was like, well, I know I'm craving this because I had just drank and imbibed more than normal.
Katie Nessel:So once you know that, it's easy to be like, it's gonna be better tomorrow.
Mike Hardenbrook:No worries. You know what the the flip side of what you said there too is, like, say you're cruising along. This is what I found. I'd be curious to hear your input on it. So you're cruising along.
Mike Hardenbrook:You're starting to feel good. And then the thought pops into your mind and says, you know what? I think I'm gonna reward myself for something.
Katie Nessel:You know what?
Mike Hardenbrook:I'm feeling so nervous. And I'm sticking to my commitment. I might as well treat myself. Have you run into that?
Katie Nessel:I know. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Of course. Of course.
Katie Nessel:Of course. And it is powerful, like, having a plan. And I I'm like, you know, it's a lot of it is discipline. It's like motivation to not drink is not gonna be there. Let me tell you.
Katie Nessel:Like, when you start this journey and throughout your journey, if you choose to moderate, like, you you are not going to have the motivation to stick to your plan every day. That is a fact. So it just comes down to, like, your your discipline. Like, I just knowing you can do it. Just stick to it.
Katie Nessel:And it's kinda for me, it's a lot like going to the gym or being on a diet. It's like the motivation is not always gonna be there, but you just get your ass out of bed and you go and you do it. And it's you just stick to your plan. And so knowing like, oh my god. I don't I feel like I wanna drink.
Katie Nessel:What's wrong with me? It's like, nothing. Nothing is wrong with you. It's it's just like you just have to have the discipline to stick with it. And so and, like, you're gonna fuck up.
Katie Nessel:For sure you are. And so just, like, not beating yourself up about it and knowing, you know, what chemically is happening and and just just comes out of choice. It's like you're gonna wanna have that drink at one occasion or not when you said you weren't going to. What are you going to do? It is up to you.
Katie Nessel:No one is gonna stop you from having that drink except you. So it's a lot of it just was me realizing, like, oh, right. The I am gonna have cravings. Motivation's not gonna be there, and it's on me to make the decision. And nobody else is really gonna, you know, know or care or whatever.
Katie Nessel:So it's like, how am I gonna feel in the morning if I don't stick to my plan?
Mike Hardenbrook:Yeah. I think that's really freeing to anybody thinking about changing habits or or are getting those thoughts to hear you say that that those things still come up. I mean, I wrote a book obsessed around neuroscience and habit change and and alcohol. Those thoughts still come up. Like, nobody has a perfect record.
Mike Hardenbrook:No. But everybody's human. And if anybody tells you otherwise, they're not being truthful.
Katie Nessel:Right. Totally. Totally. Yeah. And it's like I you know, and it's sometimes that's hard because then people are like, well, then why do you drink it all?
Katie Nessel:Like, why didn't stop drinking? And it's like, okay, here we go. Let's go back to the beginning. And it it can be hard.
Mike Hardenbrook:Well, those thoughts come up for those people as well. You know, both decisions are gonna it's gonna happen. There's we're all human.
Katie Nessel:Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. We're all human.
Mike Hardenbrook:So, actually, so you talked a little bit about the tracking being really important in planning. So let's talk about so you did it on your own, and then you came across Sunnyside. Tell me about your experience with Sunnyside so far, what you like. Let's go through that a little bit.
Katie Nessel:Yeah. Yeah. So I, you know, I lost kinda interest in hand tracking pretty quickly. And, like, I it was just, like, the math and, you know, and I my, like, good, like, little jingle calendar was not great. So I found Sunnyside.
Katie Nessel:And, for me, the I really like the text messages. So what I did when I first started Sunnyside to kind of set myself up for success. So if for those of who don't use it or haven't used it in a while, it's gonna text you, like, every morning evening. And you can turn that off if you want. But saying, like, here, how did you do last night?
Katie Nessel:And here's your daily reminder of, like, what your goal is for today. And so I named those text messages. I named I just, like, if you can't ask me to
Mike Hardenbrook:by the way.
Katie Nessel:Yeah. What? Stop. Okay. That's your grandma's name.
Katie Nessel:Yeah. I love that. Yeah. So so I gave it kind of like a personality. I, like, made the app kind of like a friend that checks in with me.
Katie Nessel:And, like, I that really helped me. Like, I was like, oh, I gotta check-in with Dolores and her little name pops up. So find, like, that might help you try that because, you know, sometimes getting, like, the messages, but that's a new thing. So I I really like that. I like being able to do 0 or whatever, do my check-in, and, like, not having to pull up the app constantly is nice.
Katie Nessel:Like, we're busy people. I think it makes it, like, really easy to use. And then for me, it was the the data that a few of the data points that were the most surprising to me was it started telling me, like, here are the days you're, like, a 100% successful not drinking. Like, I never drink on Sunday because Monday is, like, one of my biggest lifting days. I never I don't drink on days before my biggest lifting days, but, like, you, like, 90% of the time are drinking on Mondays after my biggest lifting day.
Katie Nessel:I was like, what? Oh. And so I I was, like, shocked by that. And so, so then I was like, okay. I gotta knowledge is power.
Katie Nessel:I was I gotta change that. And so those types of staffs, you're never gonna get hand tracking, were really helpful. And then, the seeing the number grow. So Sunnyside will count that. Like, you'd you start in the beginning.
Katie Nessel:Here's when I'm averaging 15 drinks a week was what I was averaging. And so, you know, here's what you've saved this last month. You've saved yourself those 40 drinks or whatever that number is, and it will continue tracking that for you. So that seeing that number grow, just like we've talked about, is just that positive kind of, like, inspiring statistic for me. So those are a few of, like, kind of my tips and tricks of how I started with it, how I use it.
Katie Nessel:I like just how user friendly it is, and it's something that I thought. I always tell people, try it for a few months. It's so affordable, and you might not need it forever. I'm kinda surprised I still need it, but I love data. Like, I love seeing the statistics of, like, how I average my drinking is, like, trending, averaging.
Katie Nessel:Over the holidays, like, I drink I was starting to trend more. And that's some insight will tell you that. So as opposed to just, like, tracking a little calendar, which you're gonna fall off on and you're not gonna be able to measure all those statistics, it will it kinda gives you warnings too of like, hey. You're starting to trend up and drinking. Let's, like, pull it back maybe a little or however you wanna handle that.
Katie Nessel:The trend kind of forecasting it gives us is also very helpful. It's not even really forecasting. It's like, here's what's happening. So, so yeah. So that's been really empower powering for me too.
Mike Hardenbrook:Yeah. I love all of that. So it basically you were doing workouts on Sunday that were really hard, you said. Right?
Katie Nessel:No. So my really hard workout day is Monday. So I would never drink Sunday night and prepare because I'd wake up at 5 AM to lift. And but then that night, Tuesday is a rest day for me. So that night, I would drink because I didn't have to get up early the next morning, and, which was terrible because it was like it impacts, like, your ability to make gains in the gym, of course.
Katie Nessel:And so that was like all about the gains, man. And so that I would see that and I was like, oh my god, I just worked so hard in the gym and then like I'm drinking. And with the sunny side app, and this is in my moderation period, so it was only usually like 1 or 2 drinks. I don't drink a ton of mine anymore. It's like gin tonics or whatever.
Katie Nessel:And, I was like, but that's that's negating a lot of the work I just put in at the gym. And so I never realized that really until I started using that.
Mike Hardenbrook:Yeah. Yeah. I I love the, the naming of it because it really of the text messages, That's smart because, like, actually, there was a there's a guy that I know that's really well. He kinda told me, you know, I'm thinking about changing my relationship with alcohol. He's like an executive.
Mike Hardenbrook:Like, he's very structured, but, he loves his wine. I don't think he goes crazy or anything, but I think for health reasons, he wanted to adjust that. And, I think take for him personally, taking a really extended break was gonna be difficult. And so I told him about Sunnyside and then we talked, like, maybe a month later on a completely separate note. And then he said, oh, by the way, hey, I use that Sunnyside app.
Mike Hardenbrook:Those text messages, like, I I have this thing that I can't have text messages sitting in my phone that aren't cleared out and answered or whatever. And so he's like, it's actually working for me.
Katie Nessel:Oh, that's amazing.
Mike Hardenbrook:That's so So I'm curious to know. So you're using Sunnysize doing a lot of the things that you used to do manually. It's doing some things for you outside of that, making it easier in tracking. Have you seen anybody any results from people that maybe, you know, are following you on social media or that you know personally that have had some results using it as well?
Katie Nessel:Yeah. Yeah. So I get a lot of messages. People will like send me their screenshots of like using the app and stuff and they're really proud of themselves. And it's like, it's so cool.
Katie Nessel:It's so cool to see that. It's like a way, you know, within the SunnySide app, you can obviously you know, but people might know you can find community and, like, the the groups and the chat rooms and things are really helpful. And so I think that's what people are looking for a lot of the time when they're trying to fill up a new habit is find other people that are trying to do that too. So they know I'm using it, so they relate to me. I always encourage them to try and find other people within the app too that they can talk with because I think that is also really important, that community aspect.
Katie Nessel:So yeah. But the I think what's so cool is I get statistics from people a lot. It was really common around March because people who started I did, like, a damp January kind of, like, join me for day of January, just free kind of on Instagram and just daily updates and things. We all just kind of checked in with each other. And by February, January, I was still getting messages from people that were like, hey, I've cut back my drinking 70% this year already.
Katie Nessel:And I was like, that's amazing. Or hey, we we cut back, you know, 30%. And I'm like, that's something to celebrate too. And so I love hearing from people. And then I and then I get the messages that are really like, you know, you you, like, saved my life maybe.
Katie Nessel:Like, this is like I was on a really bad path. And because of, like, the advice you gave and, like, I'm using the app, like, I I've, like, completely changed my relationship and, like, thank you so much. And that those are, like, the messages that keep me going where it's like, oh my god. So, it just feels so, you know, it feels so good and just I'm just so proud of anyone that's willing to to try it. That's what I always say.
Katie Nessel:I'm like, try it for a month or 2. Just try it. You'll you'll see, like, when you do. So
Mike Hardenbrook:thing is, like, you just it's look at it like an experiment. Let's try something different than you're doing now. It doesn't have to be Yeah. You get to set what it is. If it's just 10% less, see how that goes.
Mike Hardenbrook:See how you feel.
Katie Nessel:Yep. Yes. Totally. Yeah. The all or nothing approach is, like, not gonna work for me, not gonna it doesn't work for a lot of people.
Katie Nessel:So it's it's
Mike Hardenbrook:It dragged things on for I I almost don't wanna say 10 years, but it definitely dragged it on many, many years for me that I mean, I would just go I would yo yo. I'd go 30 then back then 30 then back or, you know, or not at all because I had a trip or because it's new year's or it's my birthday or I'm going to a wedding.
Katie Nessel:Right. Right. Yeah. And the important thing is, like like you said, don't wait. Just start.
Katie Nessel:Just, like, start. Maybe you take a week and you drink the same you were drinking before, but then, like, just start tracking so you have that data. And it's like, what are you waiting for? Just like, do it. So
Mike Hardenbrook:I love that you got out there. It takes a lot of guts to just get out there and start doing it. I'm I'll say from my personal experience when I was thinking about, writing about alcohol and then also posting about, habit change with alcohol, I I was worried about how that would look, you know. Like, I was still in a software company, and I remember looking to another executive and I said, you know, should I put this out there? Is it gonna make me look weak?
Mike Hardenbrook:It's gonna make me look like, oh, this guy's got this big problem and everything's probably a mess. So, like, I feel that, you know, in my heart that you got out there and stood up and and gave a voice especially to women, you know, and gave them options.
Katie Nessel:Yeah. Oh, thank you. Thanks so much. It is scary. It's really scary in the beginning.
Katie Nessel:And the truth is, like, not everyone's gonna be thrilled at what you're doing. That's like a hard truth. And I see a lot of posts on social media that's like, nobody cares what you're drinking or if you're drinking. Sometimes that's true. That's not always true actually, I found.
Katie Nessel:So I have found the full spectrum of people that are very supportive to, like, not supportive at all. And you're you're gonna find not everyone is gonna stand up and cheer for you when you do this, and that can feel really hard. The people that really love you are going to, and your groups, like, might change a little bit over, you know, when you when you start this journey. So that's something that I try and be really honest about. That's my personal experience.
Katie Nessel:And like I said before, it's like I was a drinker, so, like, I hung out with drinkers. And, like, my friend group is like, there's a lot of drinkers, And that's that can be really hard. When people know you as a certain person and you change who that person is, it can take them some time to catch up. And it can it can be kind of jarring, I think. And especially the way I did it.
Katie Nessel:Like, I didn't tell anyone. I started this huge big account and was like, oh, there's a money thing. And so it can take some time and it can also, like, sometimes not recover. And that's just, like, that's just part of the journey too. So I I try and be honest with people about that.
Katie Nessel:It can be really hurtful. It can be very painful to go through, that with, you know, certain people.
Mike Hardenbrook:Yeah. When you meet those big Yeah.
Katie Nessel:But you'll find
Mike Hardenbrook:Sorry. Go ahead, Katie.
Katie Nessel:Oh, no. I was just gonna say you'll find you'll find the the people that really love you, the people that you're gonna keep in your life, like, are gonna show up for you in a big way and you'll never forget. You'll never forget.
Mike Hardenbrook:Yeah. And, you know, on top of that, there's something that, like, I've had a guest on that talked about the sober tests. So, like, you know, you're you're really worried about, you know, what people think or missing out, you know, maybe the wine group or whatever. And Yeah. You might go and do it sober and find out that you're really not missing out on a whole lot that you thought you really wanted to.
Katie Nessel:Totally. Yeah.
Mike Hardenbrook:Yeah. This is especially for bars, you know? Yeah. Going out to bars for from, like, 7 to midnight, like, when you're drinking and then the thought of being in a bar for 5 hours when you're not having anything, you're like, this is actually not that much fun.
Katie Nessel:It's not. I know. And people are like, oh, I do all the same things I used to do. I was like, is that true? Like, I don't wanna go to a party where everyone's smashed.
Katie Nessel:It's just not that fun for me. I don't wanna be at a club till midnight. Not that I'm really doing that kind of stuff anymore now that I'm a mom. But like, you know, things that are fun to me are different now. I don't wanna go wine tasting with everyone.
Katie Nessel:I because it's not fun for me anymore. Like, I don't wanna just get, you know, drunk. So like, it's it's anymore. Like, I don't wanna just get, you know, drunk. So, like, it's some of that will change.
Katie Nessel:Like, what you find fun might look different. So and and people whose, like, fun kind of has gotten in the habit of involving drinking is, you know, that can be Yeah. Challenging. One other thing I'll say is, like, I I I'm I don't think this this is, like, specific to moderation at all, But in a sense, it's like when you come out and say, like, hey. I'm trying to cut back my drinking.
Katie Nessel:Like, I don't I wanna drink less. I wanna change, like, my relationship with alcohol. You're not coming out and saying, like, I have an alcohol dependency issue. I am an alcoholic. I'm I'm getting sober.
Katie Nessel:Like, I think people understand that. You're in a box. You are I understand this box, and I'm gonna support you. When you come out and say, like, I I don't really like my relationship with alcohol. Like, I think I'm drinking too much.
Katie Nessel:I wanna change it. And they have the same relationship with alcohol as you do. It's like the shame mirror. It's they're like, well, we drink the same amount. So what are you saying about me?
Katie Nessel:And so it's like, oh, no, no, no. I'm not I'm really I'm not saying anything about you. Like, I don't care at all what my friends or people other people drink at all. It's like, this is my journey. But it can feel like they're like, well, what does this say about me?
Katie Nessel:It's different when you're like, I have a problem. I'm an alcoholic, and I'm going to AA. I could really use your support. People are gonna support you. Like, they're gonna be like, of course.
Katie Nessel:Whatever you need, whatever Katie needs, we're gonna support her. But when you change it to, like, that narrative of, like, this is kind of a toxic relationship, like, I really need to evaluate this, that's different. And so that was very eye opening for me. Probably within the 1st 6 months, I was like, oh, this is a difference. This is a different approach, and people don't really know what box to put you in anymore.
Katie Nessel:Are you gonna drink? Are you not gonna drink? And, like, this is, like, kinda throwing me for a loop. Katie was my friend that I drank a ton with. So, like, now how do we have a relationship?
Katie Nessel:So that is also a challenge that I think is kinda more prominent with moderation. Do you do you know what
Mike Hardenbrook:it means to do that way? I actually did some research on this and there's a couple of buckets that people fall into. 1 is, like, how does it reflect on me as a person? So they look inward and feel bad about themselves, which is a lot of times why people will be like, come on. Have a drink with me because they get people feel bad if they're the only one.
Mike Hardenbrook:They They start to look inward. Another one which would be very, relevant to the to the mommy wine culture is that, like, you're no longer part of the tribe. So, like, this is a tribe mentality. This is what we do.
Katie Nessel:Oh my god. And
Mike Hardenbrook:you're not doing it.
Katie Nessel:Exactly it. Yes. You're no longer part of this tribe. Yep.
Mike Hardenbrook:It's Yeah. And well, and then really And I don't think the other thing is with the moderation is that there will be people that you have to realize that there will be people that have very strong opinions on how you change your relationship with alcohol, especially in the abstinence bucket that will basically say, like, you're in denial. If you're questioning if you're questioning your relationship with alcohol, then you definitely have a major problem in the only so you need to go over here.
Katie Nessel:For so long. I heard that at one point 10 years ago. And I was like, okay. Oh my god. I'm not even gonna think about it then.
Katie Nessel:Because I heard that. I've heard that. I I think that is I don't know if that's a pillar of AA or something, but it's like, if you even have to think about it or if you, like, you know, it's like, then you need to get into AA right away. I was like, oh my god. That's what I did.
Katie Nessel:So I did, like you said, years, years of, like, no. I'm not gonna go to AA. So, you know, that's yeah.
Mike Hardenbrook:Mhmm. Yeah. There's a lot I have a lot of speculation on the reasons behind that. But, but I wanna talk a little bit about, you know, as we conclude here about what you're doing on social media. Like, what kind of things are you sharing?
Mike Hardenbrook:If people wanna that are listening wanna come over and listen to what, sober's mom was is saying? What do you, what do you got going on over there?
Katie Nessel:Oh, thanks. Yeah. All are welcome. It's just a completely judgment free space for people to look at their drinking habits and I try and provide tools for people to moderate their drinking, including like, you know, habit tracking. I do reviews of nonalcoholic products that, I like and I don't like, and pretty vocal about the ones I don't like.
Katie Nessel:So that's kind of, like, slowly what my account is becoming known for, which I don't know if I love that, but I do give brutally honest feedback on
Mike Hardenbrook:my products. I saw the one where you tried a bottle and it gave the face and pushed it off.
Katie Nessel:Yeah. That was my nicest one to date. Most of my reviews, I, like, speak, you know, to the camera. I will like give tasting notes really fast. It's so hard on reels because they have to be so short.
Katie Nessel:So I give really high level information, 10 seconds of like each product. And so, yeah. And so I review a lot of like ready to drink options, for people who are busy. I do mocktail and 0 proof recipes as well. I almost always do like a mocktail Monday post.
Katie Nessel:And then just education. I share a lot of education tools, tips and tricks of like how I approach certain situations drinking less like travel, like we talked about. And so, yes. I try and stay on there, you know, almost daily. I've I've built such an amazing community on Instagram.
Katie Nessel:I'm so Instagram's kind of my bread and butter. Like, that's the main platform I'm on. So if you ever wanna chat with me, I'm always available there and has allowed me to, like, just reach so many about millions of people around the world. It's just been incredible. So come on over and join, and, yeah, I would love to to meet anyone who's listening.
Mike Hardenbrook:Totally love it. And I I'm following you now.
Katie Nessel:So Thanks. Yeah. Thanks.
Mike Hardenbrook:So I'm looking forward to seeing more. Awesome. I always like to I always like to end it on a high note. So tell me something that you're, like, super excited about. Like, it could be a project.
Mike Hardenbrook:It could be a trip. It could be what you're doing next with Soberish Mom. It could be anything you want.
Katie Nessel:Yeah. Oh, okay. Well, I'll share a personal one. My family, we just bought a house. We're just we're moving.
Katie Nessel:So that's been a lot exciting. Yes. I have the stress of, like, packing up and I don't know how you do this nomad thing because I'm like the amount of crap that my family has. I'm so excited, I'm purging, I'm going to like Goodwill every week and so that feels really good. But you know, the stress that comes with moving, I'm like so glad I have my drinking habits in check right now because it's very stressful.
Katie Nessel:So, yeah, the family's moving. I'm gonna have, like, a new shooting space and kind of, like, a studio, which feels really great because we're kinda just on top of each other right now. So that's my that's my big news. I'll be having yeah. So sharing some of that online.
Katie Nessel:And then for Silver's Mom, I'm just, you know, continuing. I it's funny. I don't have, like, a 5 year plan. I don't have yeah. I'm not the funny thing with So First Mom is, like, I don't really sell a ton.
Katie Nessel:Like, I do brand endorsements of things I like but like I don't have a downloadable. I don't, you know, I'm not like joining my cleanse or anything. It's just trying to foster community and like share information, knowledge, share. So, yeah. So that's, I'm just looking forward to continuing doing that.
Katie Nessel:So, yeah.
Mike Hardenbrook:I love it so much and congrats on the new house. That's big.
Katie Nessel:Thanks. Thanks so much. Thanks. It's so nice meeting you.
Mike Hardenbrook:Yeah. Thank you, Katie. Thanks for coming on. This was a lot of fun, and, take care.
Katie Nessel:Thanks. You too.
Mike Hardenbrook:This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform, having helped 100 of thousands of people cut out more than 13,000,000 drinks since 2020. And in fact, an independent study showed that Sunnyside reduced alcohol consumption by an average of 30% in 90 days. And as one of our members shared, Sunnyside helps me stay mindful of my drinking habits. It's not super restrictive. So if I'm craving a glass of wine with dinner, I just track it and I move on with my week.
Mike Hardenbrook:If you could benefit from drinking a bit less and being more mindful of when and how much you drink, head on over to sunnyside dot co to get a free 15 day trial. You'll get access to everything that we offer, including tracking and planning tools, coaching from our experts, a vibrant community of people just like you, and the motivation and advice to stay on track with your health goals, all with no pressure to quit. That's sunnyside
Katie Nessel:dotco.