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Introducing ReFolkUs, a new podcast by Folk Music Ontario, where we talk to artists and music industry professionals about building sustainable careers as creative workers, with a focus on folk.
[00:00:27] Rosalyn: Welcome to ReFolkUs [00:00:30] today. Our guest is Dave Landreth. Dave is one half of Prairie Roots rockers, the brothers Landreth. They are two time Juno winners and Grammy winning songwriters. And their song made up mind was covered by Bonnie Raitt in 2022, going on to spend 12 weeks at number one on the Americana charts and taking the Grammy for best Americana performance in 2023.
[00:00:52] Rosalyn: They've toured extensively since 2013 and are currently working on their fourth album due sometime in 2025. Together with his brother, Joe and [00:01:00] manager, Stu Anderson, Dave founded Birthday Cake Records, a Winnipeg based record label, music publishing and artist management company.
[00:01:07] Rosalyn: Birthday Cake collaborates with a diverse range of talented artists, including Begonia, Leith Ross, Field Guide, the Be Good Tanyas, the Fretless, Slow Leaves, Madeline Roger, and lots more. Hello, David. How are you doing?
[00:01:21] David Landreth: I'm fabulous. Rosalind, how are you?
[00:01:23] Rosalyn: I'm doing very well. Very well. i'm so excited to talk to you today. folks in our community may remember you from your, [00:01:30] appearance at the Folk Music Ontario. online conference in 2021. you gave an awesome presentation. I believe it was titled River of Nickels.
[00:01:40] David Landreth: Yeah riveting. Presentation on collecting master rights royalties in the music business.
[00:01:47] Rosalyn: You know, since then, you know, we were really excited to have you on, as everybody's just heard, you have a really, awesome, and growing, range of artists on the label that you work with. and quite a few that. we'd like to claim in our, folk [00:02:00] genre.
[00:02:00] Rosalyn: So I'm wondering if you're going to start off by just giving us a little history of Birthday Cake, history of the label and, and how it's grown over the years.
[00:02:06] David Landreth: Sure. The label was the brainchild of Stu who is the Brothers Landreth's manager and myself, our brainchild. We are the parents of this little idea. And initially we put the company together thinking that we would focus on supporting songwriters with publishing administration, because we recognized that it was this sort of underserved area amongst our friends.
[00:02:29] David Landreth: [00:02:30] Where artists early on, we're struggling to set up their publishing and we're being kind of left in the lurch, weren't big enough to attract the attention some of the various publishing companies around, and we thought we could step in and help that out. But in the process of doing that, we accidentally started a record label and that quickly kind of rose to the forefront of what we were doing.
[00:02:49] David Landreth: And we wound up putting out a book. Landreth record, a Joey Landreth record and a Begonia record that sort of paved the way for accidentally becoming a record company. And that wound up being the thing that we became known for and, and just [00:03:00] sort of attracted all this attention and we started putting out records for all our pals.
[00:03:03] David Landreth: And in the process of doing that, we kind of learned what record labels do and how to do that better and more comprehensively. And, as the roster grew we kind of expanded internally and we've gone through a couple of iterations of our, Birthday Cake team. Currently we're now at eight people altogether myself and Stu included, and my brother Joe, who's also a co founder.
[00:03:22] David Landreth: yeah, it's, it's been kind of an interesting journey from there. It's a very, it's a very scrappy DIY. Most of us have artists [00:03:30] backgrounds and we kind of pride ourselves in trying to do things a little bit differently. Very interested in being at the forefront of sort of fair and equitable music deals for artists.
[00:03:39] David Landreth: And I think the big thing that sort of hopefully sets us apart is that everything that we do here Has to pass the vibe test and I wouldn't put forward a deal to anybody or try and do business with any artist if I wouldn't do that deal myself or I wouldn't feel good about signing that agreement and that's kind of led.
[00:03:54] David Landreth: the way and, and I think we've over the course of the last five years have earned a bit of a reputation for being [00:04:00] straightforward and honest. as well as, you know, being really hardworking and scrappy and nimble. And here we are in 2024, and we're five years old and have this great wide, roster of incredible artists, a lot of whom are from Western Canada in our own backyard here in Winnipeg and across three divisions, which is like you said, the record label, the music management and publishing side of things.
[00:04:21] Rosalyn: how many artists do you currently have on the label side of things now? [00:04:30]
[00:04:33] David Landreth: form the roster. We've, a lot of the stuff we've done. got a lot of artists that are sort of off cycle and are working on new records.
[00:04:38] David Landreth: And so, so it's, it's almost hard to count exactly, but at this point I'd say we're, yeah, actively releasing, call it a dozen different acts.
[00:04:45] Rosalyn: I'd love to dive into the equitable side of it, and you're talking about kind of approaching. A label, as folks who are informed by being artists what did that mean to you then when you were then approaching artists to sign and, how do you feel like you were approaching it differently than somebody who [00:05:00] maybe hasn't gone through that experience of being an artist already?
[00:05:02] David Landreth: Think it comes down to a number of things like when we started looking at, the deals that we were putting on the table and the kind of business that we're doing with people, initially before the team sort of grew, Stu, Joe and I, and we sat around going like, what did we enjoy about deals that we've done in the past?
[00:05:18] David Landreth: Like what things stood out to us as being fair or above and beyond, or sort of classy or respectable. business practices and then what stuff left us feeling the ick or left us [00:05:30] feeling like we were getting screwed or we're maybe being misled. And we really went through and tried to carve all that stuff out of the way that we operated.
[00:05:37] David Landreth: And so interestingly, initially, I think we cut some of the most wildly favorable deals you may be ever seen for record labels. The pendulum swung a little too far and we've since kind of corrected somewhere in the middle. And I think that also reflects the fact that, you know, you're starting, we were really just bumbling our way through it.
[00:05:54] David Landreth: We were just figuring out what a record label was doing. And so maybe those early deals reflected that to some extent. And now [00:06:00] that we, you know, are really confident in what we're able to do and the infrastructure that we've built and the networks that we've developed. The staff that we've managed to bring onto the team.
[00:06:08] David Landreth: And I feel like the deals now reflect sort of the firepower that comes along with that. At the end of the day, it's, it's about, putting dollars into artists' hands and helping them grow their careers in the most sort of efficient, effective and holistic ways that we can, and that's fair terms, fair.
[00:06:25] David Landreth: links. A really big one for us out of the gate was, sharing the master side [00:06:30] of. If you'll remember my previous presentation talking about the master side of neighboring rights, which can be a wildly lucrative income stream for artists. And if you sign to a label, the sort of industry precedent is that labels keep a hundred percent of that side of the royalty.
[00:06:44] David Landreth: They don't share it with the artist. And I've always felt like that is rotten, no good. business because that is a royalty generated off the back of an artist's hard work, and the sort of industry standard has been that the artist retains the featured performer half of that, and therefore the quid pro [00:07:00] quo is that the record label keeps The master in my argument has always been that those are, two different royalties or one is for the performer and the other one is a revenue stream like any other generated by the master.
[00:07:10] David Landreth: And if it's a revenue stream from the master, then it should be divided along the terms of the agreement. And so, we've done that from day one and, you know, without getting into specifics that that has meant. A tremendous amount of money in our artist's hands. And, some of our clients have bought houses on the backs of that.
[00:07:25] David Landreth: And have significantly improved their quality of living because they can share [00:07:30] equitably in this revenue stream. So, you know, that's like a glaring example. And then there's just little things along the way, because we're a small, nimble company and we're flexible and scrappy, we're able to do things quickly and we can accommodate and help our artists in ways that bigger machines can't accomplish because it's just.
[00:07:47] David Landreth: There are too many hoops to jump through and stuff. We can get in and just sort of support our artists the way they need. We can be flexible about the budgets and the way we roll out campaigns so our artists achieve the goals that they want, as opposed to, [00:08:00] you know, maybe revenue at all costs for us.
[00:08:03] David Landreth: another really big thing is just sitting down with the people that we work with and finding out what they want out of this wacky ride in the music business. Cause not everybody wants the same thing. And it's a real mistake to assume that everybody wants to be touring their asses off all the time and grinding it that way.
[00:08:16] David Landreth: Or if they all want to be, not everybody wants to be famous. Some people, success looks differently, is quantified differently. So figuring that out and then figuring out how we can support it.
[00:08:23] Rosalyn: How involved are you in the and kind of development then of, folks albums? It's like, [00:08:30] when, when are you hopping in, in that album cycle? How early? Early.
[00:08:33] David Landreth: Usually, Not tremendously. It does happen for sure. Like, Joe produced a record with Leith Ross last year and that, you know, was very, very involved in that as a co producer was in the sessions building that record from the ground up. But I will say generally, it's actually a pretty light touch.
[00:08:47] David Landreth: And I think that comes from a background in Roots music, where I'm coming from a place where we trust artists to bring us their art. And to realize their vision. That's, that's what our artists do really, really, really well. They know how [00:09:00] to make their records, write their songs, and they understand what their voices are and what they want to say, and we try and get out of the way, if our opinion is asked or we're invited into the process, we're more than happy to jump in and there's like, there's, not everybody, but, our label manager, Bucky.
[00:09:14] David Landreth: is of Royal Canoe fame and is an extremely accomplished artist and touring musician with a wealth of information that he can bring to the process. Joe, obviously, is You know, my brother my partner in the Brothers Landreth stuff, he knows what he's talking about. And our marketing [00:09:30] manager B has a band called Cartel Madras and she's a killer producer, writer, like there's just this wealth of artistic stuff that we can bring to the table if, if it's invited.
[00:09:38] David Landreth: But by and large, we're kind of counting on the artists to present their vision and then our job is to amplify it. So I would say like, honestly, not, not a huge amount. But we're definitely A lot more involved in developing the marketing narratives and the stories behind the records and seeing how we can sort of build out that world.
[00:09:54] David Landreth: But when it comes to the, to the records, yeah, generally we're let, the artists do their thing. And then we're just trying to figure out how we [00:10:00] can spread the word.
[00:10:00] Rosalyn: In terms of the traditional versus this kind of maybe more equitable or kind of newer, more modern approach to labels and, and label deals, I feel like we've seen labels transform from kind of the older. model where yes, they would definitely take, as an artist, all of your money and rights but would also front all the money and be, you know, be giving you advances and all that sort of thing, you know, kind of acting like a bank for creation of the record.
[00:10:26] Rosalyn: Now I know you're not following that model in terms of taking all the artist's money because you're [00:10:30] approaching it with a fresh perspective. But do you still have that kind of relationship with artists where you're helping to kind of fund the album creation process or are you encouraging them to kind of self fund and then, and then taking it from there?
[00:10:42] David Landreth: It depends on the artist and we have a pretty wide spectrum of deals that we do, and they really are just kind of catered to the artist's goals and objectives. And increasingly, we found that artists are keen to explore some sort of alternative record deals. I don't want to say there's a lot of funding out there.
[00:10:58] David Landreth: That's, that's definitely [00:11:00] misleading, but there are all these artists to fund the production of records, whether it's through. Provincial or federal arts council grants, or it's through your local music industry association or funder or it's factor or, or, or so a lot of folks are saying, Hey, I can come up with a bunch of this cash and I don't necessarily need you to give me a huge advance.
[00:11:20] David Landreth: What I need is support. I need a team. I need people to count on people that have these connections can leverage their networks to, Get my music in front of the editors at [00:11:30] Spotify and Apple can help pitch for sync can help craft these stories and just Amplify the things we don't necessarily need a bunch of money up front.
[00:11:36] David Landreth: So for those artists, we're able to cut very different deals and then and then we do we do sort of more traditional deals that are you know profit share ask where we come in and we're providing either a licensing fee or recording budget and marketing Money content creation and it's a little more traditional that way and then the splits and the Sort of terms of the deal reflect the fact that we're going in we're assuming a lot more risk but interestingly, it's been wild to have these conversations where even [00:12:00] like five years ago when we started, a lot of the conversations we started, people were like, I need money.
[00:12:04] David Landreth: How much money are you going to give me up front? And that was sort of a non-starter for a lot of folks. Oh, we can't talk about a big licensing fee year in advance. Sorry, but it's not going to work. And increasingly, we've been showing folks like, Hey, here's, here's a spectrum of things that we could do.
[00:12:15] David Landreth: We could do it like this. Or we could do it like this. And a lot of folks are going to wait. So if I can bring a bit of this money or you know, and a lot of artists are also producing their own music now very effectively and very, very well. So they're coming to the table going, I don't need a ton of support here.
[00:12:27] David Landreth: I'm doing a ton of this at home. My, in my bedroom [00:12:30] studio or my project studio, I'm taking it to mixing and mastering, whatever. And now they're looking at it going, well, if I can keep a bigger piece of the pie. and the cool thing is now we done enough of these deals where you can say, Hey, this is what this shakes out to.
[00:12:41] David Landreth: This is how quickly these people are recouping the nominal costs that we might've gone in on some of these lighter deals and they're making a lot more money. It's like, it's working. now, if anything, now we're kind of having to go and sort of make a case for like, Hey, maybe we want to do a bigger investment.
[00:12:53] David Landreth: Now we're ready for it. And the kind of going, ah, but these deals are really lucrative. Let's just keep it this way. So it's just a really interesting spectrum and [00:13:00] it depends on what people want. And What they're hoping to get out of it.
[00:13:03] Rosalyn: How do you approach A& R are you out there, scouting for talent or are a lot of folks kind of approaching you with deals and who are you looking for? Okay.
[00:13:29] David Landreth: Some [00:13:30] alternative stuff that was sort of outside of my lane anyways. And initially a lot of the A&R was, is just word of mouth. It was Who do we know who are our pals and who are our pals, pals. And there's definitely, you know, that can come off as a bit nepotistic, but it's also really organic and it kind of represents this community of people that we're surrounded by where we were just able to be like, Hey, these are the amazing people in our backyard that could use a little bit of help.
[00:13:51] David Landreth: Let's work with them. And I would say the most meaningful stuff tends to be word of mouth. Where we hear about somebody from one of our artists who goes, Oh, [00:14:00] this, this person's amazing. You should really check them out or somebody will come to us and say, Hey, I'm, I'm friends with feel guide. And, he really loved working with you on this release, check this out.
[00:14:08] David Landreth: And we go, you know, we love that. Let's chat. There's a small amount that is like totally unsolicited. get submissions through our website or DMs or wherever. And we listen to everything. We, we have a system for going through everything. And that definitely has led to some totally.
[00:14:24] David Landreth: unsolicited connections. We're like this is amazing. Cool. Let's let's do something I would say for the most part it is it is [00:14:30] just kind of based on the community And then as we grow we've been doing a lot more travel and business development stuff. So people are going out all over the place You know, we sent somebody out to Future Echoes earlier this year in Sweden and Stu was out at the Great Escape, Focus Whales March, doing a lot more of that kind of thing where we're out on the ground trying to see what's really exciting and stuff that moves us.
[00:14:49] David Landreth: But at the day what we're looking for is, excellence. want to work with people who are excellent. They're, they're excellent at their craft. they are inspiring us and lighting us up and we feel like we want to [00:15:00] champion what they're doing and that they're great people too.
[00:15:02] David Landreth: no bullies no jerks We want we want to work with good people who share our values and our work ethos
[00:15:07] David Landreth: and who make awesome music
[00:15:09] Rosalyn: So then, I mean, you've, you've described, I know that you guys work with pan genre, folks that, that transcend genre, that, that work in all sorts of different types of, music. You know, but seeing as we are a folk podcast, it's, it's in the name I wonder if we can, talk a little bit about how you approach the release of, of albums that kind of fall within that genre and, and [00:15:30] some of the marketing and, and opportunities that you see available to artists working in folk.
[00:15:34] David Landreth: you know, interestingly, I think the sort of the core of what we do on the label, applies to most genres. and doesn't differ that much like Again, you know sort of starting with what are an artist or a group's objectives? and How can we help develop the narrative and the story behind the record?
[00:15:52] David Landreth: And then how do we communicate that to literally everyone we can think of? There are some, you know, very specific sort of targets that happen when you're in [00:16:00] various genres. Satellite radio is, is a really important one for us trying to get our artists under the North America on a channel.
[00:16:06] David Landreth: It's a, great spot for some of the folk people that we work with. That's kind of very specific to that niche or that genre. But broadly it's, it's really about, developing those stories and, and trying to create this sort of cohesive campaign that feels like we're bringing people into the story of this album and this group and inviting them in to engage and be a part of it.
[00:16:23] David Landreth: And we support that with a lot of different digital marketing stuff. So it's like, you know, creating content, with folk, you know, you'd be maybe a [00:16:30] little less inclined to do traditional music videos and you'd be more leaning towards live performance stuff that sort of showcases what a band does on a stage.
[00:16:36] David Landreth: Because so much of what we do as folk artists happens live. so you capitalize on that. The fretless are a great example of that. Like the live performance videos are kind of core to what they do. So figuring out how to put that front and center and then doing what we can sort of behind the scenes from a digital marketing perspective To try and build fan bases and audiences for people.
[00:16:54] David Landreth: And that gets sort of into the nether world of like marketing mumbo jumbo, but we're basically going out there just trying to [00:17:00] build online fans. Cause that's such a big part of sort of growing an audience and bringing yours to the project is getting people to buy in on what you're doing on social media, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, following you on Spotify, wherever they, listen on DSPs.
[00:17:11] David Landreth: And we found that we can. Draw a line between the amount of money that we spend on advertising and the amount of fans that we bring in new fans, find it on streaming services. And it, and it sort of helps bolster all that activity. And ideally at the end of the campaign, you can look at all that stuff and go here.
[00:17:25] David Landreth: We've made this, we've made this sort of marked improvement. You've more people listening. You've [00:17:30] got more fans engaging, more people to tell your story Also, you know, celebrating these wonderful records of the last fretless record we did, Open House, was this really cool collaborative thing where they were doing covers of all these tunes with these guest artists.
[00:17:42] David Landreth: so that was this really wonderful opportunity to bring in all these other artists to the story. So that was a big part of that campaign was connecting with these artists what was going with the band. And wound up getting a Juno nomination in 2022,
[00:17:54] Rosalyn: Okay.
[00:17:55] David Landreth: So that was a great success for us and a bit of a feather in our cap.
[00:17:58] Rosalyn: Then, like, I find [00:18:00] that you know, as an independent label, you know, the majority of, labels that I think that are signing, folk artists in general you know, fall in the independent label stream but we are seeing, particularly in folk that there are less.
[00:18:14] Rosalyn: labels out there that are just in general, I think actually, a ton of the labels got recently bought up and sold and bought up and sold again. And which like certainly happened with like Borealis and True North and Stony Plain. And I see that there's like kind of like space. for people to start [00:18:30] labels possibly, you know, if they're interested in it. And if folks are interested in entering into that you know, I know that you approached it coming as an artist if folks are interested in, in entering into the label space and starting their, their own label, do you have some advice for them of how to get, get into it?
[00:18:46] David Landreth: Yeah, sure. I would say there's, there's sort of like, there's the mechanics of running a record label, which is I would consider like. understanding and managing your metadata The supply chain stuff. How do you get that music and that [00:19:00] metadata to the DSPs, either through a distributor or through?
[00:19:03] David Landreth: Another label near a sub label through like a Merlin style thing. Like there's, there's all these different ways of doing that. You've tuned core CD, baby distro kid, whatever they're all, they're all mechanisms to deliver the masters to the DSP. So that's an important part of it. Then along with that is like the accounting and statement part of it, because if you're a record label, you got to pay your artists.
[00:19:21] David Landreth: How do you do that? How do you, get the deals together. Where do you get, where do you get a, record label contract from you know, of those kinds of like practical mechanical considerations of [00:19:30] how to run a record label, where does the money come from, how does the funding work, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:19:35] David Landreth: like that's important to get done well and to be, accurate with because you're dealing with people's money, people's records, et cetera. But I think the actual work that will make you a good or effective record label is, that other stuff, which is like, the championing of great music and artists and releases.
[00:19:51] David Landreth: It's building networks of people that you can go to when it's time to tell them about these really amazing artists and their songs and their tours and their careers. [00:20:00] it's about creating relationships with all the various funders, people across Canada, that can help you get the job done and help underwrite some of the tremendous costs of marketing and producing and releasing records and that kind of thing.
[00:20:12] David Landreth: And then that, that kind of comes down to like, the heart that you have in it and it's really hard to fake that. So It's a little different than artist management. Artist management is like the most extreme version of that. Cause you take one artist and you're literally like, bull.
[00:20:24] David Landreth: You're just running through brick wall after brick wall, standing in front of moving train, taking bullets. And you're just [00:20:30] like, so selfless and determined and singularly focused directly, but you kind of spread that out. But it's similarly like you kind of want to be prepared to have that kind of heart where you're going to stand there with somebody's,
[00:20:40] David Landreth: that's not for the faint of heart, but if, that appeals to you, then I think there's definitely, there's room, there's room. There's, it's never been easier to be a record label.
[00:20:57] David Landreth: The work is harder, but it's never been more accessible. There's never [00:21:00] been more tools, more software. that software has never been cheaper than now. So I think the barriers to entry are, are lowering, even though maybe the, The space is crowded and there, you know, there's so much happening, but you could dive in if you're a glutton for punishment and willing to put in some late nights
[00:21:16] Rosalyn: Well, then, on the flip side, actually I'm not going to go full flip side, half flip side, for artists that are going to, you know, DIY it, which, which many folks do. How can you be the best record label for yourself?
[00:21:28] David Landreth: I would have said at one point [00:21:30] that any of the jobs that we do at a record label, you could do for yourself. And I think increasingly that I don't know that that's true.
[00:21:36] David Landreth: so I think sort of accepting that the limitations of doing it on your own, is important because otherwise you'll always feel like you are failing or falling behind or not doing enough.
[00:21:46] David Landreth: And that can be really defeating. I think it's about picking the things that you feel like you can reasonably and realistically achieve and then chasing those. and trying to do a really good job of those things. So you kind of got to prioritize what, and everybody's different. Everybody's [00:22:00] appetite for self marketing and administration and organization is different.
[00:22:06] David Landreth: Some people have a lot of room for that. Some people, you know, it's like, I don't want to do any of that. I can hardly bring myself to flip open a spreadsheet. It just makes me want to puke, you know, there's like such a spectrum of artists who are willing to do that kind of work leaning into what you get at, but I would say, you know, understanding the story of your album, like it's really hard to roll out the idea of like artists releases record. It's just, it doesn't stand out. And, and I mean, there are always exceptions [00:22:30] to the rule and there are albums that are so singularly perfect and beautiful and brilliant that they just break all convention and, the cream rises.
[00:22:39] David Landreth: I think even then there's always an element of kismet that you can't necessarily count on. So. You know, every artist is going to believe that their work is the best that they have done, you know, and that's important, but figuring out how to communicate that story, what makes it. unique and beautiful and important?
[00:22:55] David Landreth: What are you trying to say? What's really at the heart of it? And, and everybody has such a unique voice and everybody [00:23:00] has important things that they want to say and figuring out how to frame that so that people understand it and get it and can be brought into process of what you're doing. And I think that it's also a challenge to artists to like really focus on the meaningfulness of their work.
[00:23:11] David Landreth: Like,
[00:23:11] David Landreth: at the end of the day, you're, done, you've finished a record you're struggling to find meaning with It's going to be really hard to get other people to get it too.
[00:23:16] David Landreth: Then taking that and then just figuring out like, how can you tell that story?
[00:23:19] David Landreth: Who are the people around you that can help you tell that story? Do you have friends that are publicists? Do you have friends that are in the music business? Do you have organized friends around you who might want to help? all of the greatest music industry [00:23:30] people I know, we're dragged into it somehow.
[00:23:32] David Landreth: Very few of them came into it being like, I'm going to be, a great record executive someday. They were just like people who love shows who just started promoting shows or started, volunteering at the West end and, and like, that's the path in and you just, you're near it. So finding those passionate people around you asking for help.
[00:23:48] David Landreth: doing the best you can to sort of be organized about it all and not bring yourself up, pace yourself too.
[00:23:53] Rosalyn: Do you think that there's a particular role that you would suggest people hire out? I [00:24:00] mean, you mentioned that there's like, you know, you said that it's never been easier in terms of like the technology that's available. So that's even in itself as a leg up because we have. services to collect royalties and distribute them.
[00:24:11] Rosalyn: We have services to digitally, distribute music and, you know, there are a lot of amazing tools for, for folks who are DIYing it to actually release their music. Yeah. Do you think that there's like a particular service that's really clutched that people can look to hire out, you know, especially to tell that story when it comes to marketing?
[00:24:28] David Landreth: Oh yeah. Good [00:24:30] point. think maybe like getting very specific like, there are people who really, really understand digital advertising in the social media space. Like, if that's a part of your strategy, like you just mentioned digital marketing specifically, but like, if you're an artist who's thinking I want to reach more people.
[00:24:45] David Landreth: On social media, I want to build my audience and you like all of us are hearing the abysmally low engagement numbers that come from organic posts on social media, how hard it is to reach, you know, if you have a if you have 10, followers on Instagram, how unlikely it is that [00:25:00] you're going to reach more than 10 percent of them with a post, for example, if you're an artist on in that platform, you're going to feel that you're going to know what I'm talking about.
[00:25:07] David Landreth: So, you know, we, we talk about how, you know, you've got to pay to play. If you want to reach them all, then you got to pony up and pay the meta gods for access to your fans, which sucks, but Hey, it's, it is just as what it is. So if you're, if you're thinking about doing that with advertising money, which is definitely one route to do that, there are, there are people out there who are really good at spending that money and know how to build fan [00:25:30] bases and create marketing funnels that Help you find and refine who your people are on social media.
[00:25:35] David Landreth: And then those, ad dollars are going to be way more efficient. And they typically operate on a sliding scale. They're either, you know, for presses label, it's a retainer, but often it's a percentage of ad sales. So you can go to these people and, you know, run smaller campaigns that aren't going to be wildly costly, but they're going to be way more effective.
[00:25:51] David Landreth: So like if you pay 10 or 15 percent of your ad budget to have somebody run it for you, they're going to be way more effective. don't think of that as this really prohibitive cost you're going to [00:26:00] get way more than 10 or 15 percent in terms of effectiveness.
[00:26:02] David Landreth: So that's that's maybe one place that just about anybody can bring somebody on.
[00:26:06] Rosalyn: And then for folks that are thinking of signing to a label do you have like tips for artists in terms of what to look out for, how to protect themselves and, what to be looking for in, signing a label deal or how to pick who you want to work with really?
[00:26:20] Rosalyn: Okay.
[00:26:20] David Landreth: I think so much of it is, is going to be word of mouth. Talk to your friends who are on these labels, get references, find out what people's experiences are. Now that that can [00:26:30] change wildly from artist to artist, but it will help give you an understanding of the culture of the company that you're thinking about working with.
[00:26:36] David Landreth: And that matters. There's, there's a fantastic amount of turnover in these kinds of roles, especially in bigger companies. So, keeping that in mind too, like I've watched that happen so many times. Stacy, whatever from whatever giant label comes in and totally enamors some artist.
[00:26:52] David Landreth: And they just, I love this person. They get me to get my music. This is going to be amazing. They signed the deal the day after the deal [00:27:00] signed. Oh, I'm sorry. Stacy doesn't work for so and so anymore. that happens a lot. So as much as you're looking for somebody who's going to be a serious champion for what you do.
[00:27:09] David Landreth: You also need to be open to the fact that The culture of the company is important because that person may not be there If you sign to a two album deal, if you have an option on your, on your record deal, you could be, you can be working with these people for the next four or five years, regardless of who that person is.
[00:27:24] David Landreth: So getting a feel for what the, what is the, what is the culture of the company? Does it align with how you want to [00:27:30] be represented? are you Money. Are you after something else? Is it because sometimes that is the cold, hard fact. You're like, I blew my life savings on this record.
[00:27:38] David Landreth: I need a huge advance. Otherwise I am bankrupt and out of the music business. Well, that's a different story than I have, scrimped and saved and I'm I'm not loaded, but I have enough to sort of squeeze by and I could maybe put more into a marketing budget than into an upfront advance. Is the record label taking your rights in perpetuity?
[00:27:56] David Landreth: you assigning the rights to them permanently or are you licensing them? [00:28:00] And a license is a term that has an end date. And at that end date, the rights revert to you. And that's, that's something to consider, you know, forever is a very long time. It also, you know, for those of us that have kids and families, like if something happens to me, those records.
[00:28:14] David Landreth: And, and I mean, they're not worth much for me, but maybe for some artists that's listening to this one day, your stuff's going to be worth a fortune and you don't get that back. Your family doesn't get that back. So licensing licensing is a definitely to me is, is a much more viable alternative than giving away your rights.
[00:28:29] David Landreth: I just, [00:28:30] I don't, see why somebody would do that in the modern world, unless you're, unless you just need the money so badly and then, that's fine too, but retain your rights wherever you can. Make sure they revert to at some point. I mean, and then the terms of the deal, the splits, the specific splits, how you're getting paid, there's a million different types of record deals out there.
[00:28:48] David Landreth: There's profit shares, there's royalty deals, and they just, they vary so wildly. The way you recoup costs, what costs you recoup, how you get paid, what you get paid on. Like I said, are the neighboring rights [00:29:00] a part of your deal? Probably. for the most part, they aren't. Is that something you want to fight for?
[00:29:04] David Landreth: like I would ask anybody who's listening to this, like if your peers are being played on satellite radio and you think you, your music stands a reasonable shot of being on either the verge or Sirius XM or Indigiverse or any of these channels. you know, if your friends are on there, your peers are on there, you think your music can fit on there.
[00:29:21] David Landreth: You really want to retain the ability to participate in a master side of those neighboring rights because it can be wildly lucrative. And and I think, I think you, you know, I might catch [00:29:30] hell from our label peers, but I think that's fair. So there's a lot to think about get a lawyer better than no lawyer to look over a deal because it could have, you know, really long reaching implications for you.
[00:29:41] Rosalyn: And then I wonder if you can just tell us a little bit about either an artist that you've recently signed that you're excited about, or if there's a release that's coming up on Birthday Cake that, that you are particularly interested in sharing.
[00:29:55] David Landreth: There's actually so much exciting stuff happening over on the record label side of. [00:30:00] Going back over the last couple of months and then looking into the future, we put out a record by a band called Dweller, which is a bit of a super group.
[00:30:07] David Landreth: It's Dylan McDonald from Field Guide, Chris Ulrich, who's another one of our label and publishing artists. Georgia Harmer and Julian Cihogios. Sure, I'm saying that last name wrong, but he's a monster drummer out of Toronto. And it's the four of them and it's so badass. That came out late last year, December.
[00:30:23] David Landreth: That's been phenomenal. There's an artist called Night Shifts, which is Andrew Oliver from a band called Wild River. he's got an [00:30:30] EP out. It's just called Night Shifts. It's fantastic. Five songs. It's brilliant. We really love that. We put up a new field guide record in May, Rootin For Ya, which is probably my favorite one yet.
[00:30:40] David Landreth: We've worked the last all but the very first EP, and it's been just tremendous watching him grow. He's taking over in pretty serious ways, touring his tail off this year in North America, and is making a real big splash, and that's been so fun to be a part of that.
[00:30:53] David Landreth: Also phenomenal.
[00:30:54] David Landreth: It Nerve has been brilliant. Madeline's phenomenal. This record is a gut punch. It's so beautiful. [00:31:00] And we're so excited to be working with her. We've got the Fretless stuff coming out. Their new record, Glasswing is stunning and just another brilliant thing in there.
[00:31:10] David Landreth: And Madeline guests on a bunch of the tracks too. So that's cool. Signed a new band out of Manitoba called Slow Spirit that I utterly adore. [00:31:30]
[00:31:34] David Landreth: I don't know like a like a folkier Radiohead.
[00:31:38] David Landreth: They're so So good. Consummate musicians. Freakishly good writers. So fucking awesome. Jeanette Kane is another artist that we're releasing right away. She's an R& B artist based in Montreal and she's brilliant too.
[00:31:51] David Landreth: So, so many cool things coming out on the label. Either Just recently or, or about to, and then some of our sort of cornerstone artists that [00:32:00] are off campaign right now, but obviously my band, the bros, we're working on a new record in begonia. Is also working towards a new record sometime soon. So that's really exciting.
[00:32:08] David Landreth: Lots of fun stuff.
[00:32:09] Rosalyn: a that's a huge amount of stuff, Dave. That's really, really exciting. I'm so excited for you and the, and the label and for all the just truly fantastic artists that I get to work with you folks we've mentioned, you work with a ton of incredible folk artists. I mean, is genre anything? Is it meaningless? Is it [00:32:30] meaningful? Who knows? But when we talk about. folk you know, we try to define it as, as broadly as possible. You know, as an organization, we're an art service organization.
[00:32:39] Rosalyn: We, you know, you know, are trying to serve a diverse group of folks that, that have a grounding connection, we'll say, in the music that they make when you think of folk, what, what are you thinking of? And, and is, is genre important to you as a label, as, as that kind of definition important to you as a label?
[00:32:57] Rosalyn: Are you trying to define things more or define things [00:33:00] less?
[00:33:00] David Landreth: That's such a good question. And I guess, you know, a very nuanced thing to think about. I would say like, you'll hear this a lot. A lot of labels want to say, Hey, we don't do genre. and I think people are quick to, you know, and there's some that obviously do, we are a black metal label. We are a classical, label, it matters to us.
[00:33:21] David Landreth: And so much as it, I think genre can be proxy for community. And I definitely discovered that with my own band when we sort of came onto [00:33:30] the scene, we didn't know what to call ourselves. And a lot of bands don't. And increasingly, I think a lot of bands sort of fall between the cracks and you don't know what to, we all come from such diverse musical backgrounds.
[00:33:39] David Landreth: And the moment you have more than one person in a room, now you're absorbing all of their influences and backgrounds. So you can kind of come with a strange potpourri. But and I remember resisting it early. Like, I don't, don't, don't put me in a box, man. I don't want to have to define myself, but. so later on in our career, we sort of fell under this umbrella of Americana stuff with, which is, you know, folk adjacent is, is sort of broadly in the roots world.
[00:33:59] David Landreth: And [00:34:00] when that happened, what we found is that we immediately sort of landed in a world with people that musically, Really resonated with what we were doing. And those people became friends and they became collaborators and they became co conspirators and they became people we wanted to tour with. And, and, and, you know, talking about friends, getting, getting that sort of grassroots information on, on who's doing good business, what the great labels are.
[00:34:25] David Landreth: These are the people we turn to. So that does matter to us because a lot of those things [00:34:30] inform the way we, connect people to build a campaign, what artists were. Going to work with and target and is there a support opportunities or Should we put somebody on a tour?
[00:34:40] David Landreth: That's that could also use it. Like these are all, these are all things that we'll fall under the category of a certain genre because this music will compliment other people playing music like it, but ultimately what we're talking about is community and who are your people, who's your network, who are the supports, who are the people you trust and can chat with, so, so it's.
[00:34:57] David Landreth: Like as much as we're not going out being like [00:35:00] we only signed these types of bands or we don't want to work with these types of bands, once we find something that's excellent and somebody on the team is ready to champion it and scream from the mountaintops about this band that they love, then we do want to investigate sort of where, where you lie and who your musical community is and who we can draw from and lean on and build on or, or even just like, here are these other folks who've had these great successes.
[00:35:22] David Landreth: Let's talk about what they did to get there. Where did they play? What festivals are they doing? what live sessions are they doing? Where are they playing on the radio? That, is all stuff that's informed [00:35:30] or that we can sort of tie loosely under this umbrella of genre. And that gives us a bit of a playbook to follow.
[00:35:34] David Landreth: So.
[00:35:34] Rosalyn: And you got to know which satellite radio station is going to play, you know, to pitch to and, you know, yeah.
[00:35:41] David Landreth: If you take one thing away from this conversation, disproportionately chatting about serious XM, but it, it any attention folks, it matters.
[00:35:51] Rosalyn: Yeah. Well, David, thank you so much for, for taking the time to chat with us today. It's been an absolute treat and I hope we get a chance to chat again [00:36:00] very soon.
[00:36:00] David Landreth: We certainly will. Thank you for the wonderful conversation and the thoughtful questions. Been a blast
[00:36:05]
Credits
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[00:36:10] Rosalyn: That's all for this episode, friends. The ReFolkUs Podcast is brought to you by Folk Music Ontario. Find out more by heading to folkmusicontario.org/refolkus. That's R-E-F-O-L-K-U-S. The podcast is produced by Kayla Nezon and Rosalyn Dennett and mixed by Jordan Moore at the [00:36:30] The Pod Cabin. The opening theme is by King Cardiac, and the artwork is by Jaymie Karn.