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🎙️ THE Conversation is a monthly podcast that brings together diverse voices to engage in honest, courageous, and deeply relevant discussions about race and justice. Co-hosted by The Rev. Will Mebane and Onjalé Scott Price, this award-winning series was created by Falmouth Community Television (FCTV) to open dialogue and foster education on issues of racial equity—starting at the local level and rippling outward.
Each episode features panel discussions, community voices, and expert guests who explore how racism and bias shape our everyday lives across institutions such as education, healthcare, housing, religion, and more. With a focus on awareness, action, and community connection, THE Conversation aims to inspire lasting, meaningful change—one conversation at a time.
Originally launched in 2020, the show has received the Rika Welch Community Impact Award and continues to spark partnerships, elevate marginalized voices, and support anti-bias education throughout Cape Cod and beyond.
Listen and be part of THE Conversation—because change starts with listening.
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Onjalé Scott Price
Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Conversation. I am your co-host, Angela Scott Price, and I am joined by the wonderful, fantastic, Honorable Reverend Wil Mebane. I love hanging out with this guy. We are so excited that you are joining us for another episode of The Conversation. We have a wonderful program scheduled today and very excited about our guests, and very excited to be in studio once again.
00:01:40:00 - 00:02:01:24
Onjalé Scott Price
So let's get started. Our first question for today is what is internalized racism and what causes it? I think it's going to spark a really interesting conversation. So let's go to our people on the street and see what they had to say about what is internalized racism and what causes it.
00:02:01:26 - 00:03:03:26
Sandra Faiman-Silva
I think internalized racism has to do with people experiencing, assaults that are racist, whether it's verbal or, imagery, movies, films that trigger the, memories or, their own experiences in life. And, this can be a continuing process so that, for example, I, in terms of the Holocaust, when you see imagery and footage on TV of whole of, Holocaust survivors and victims, it really, triggers depression, sadness, fear that can make these, episodes can continue to be alive in your own memory and in your own consciousness.
00:03:03:28 - 00:03:14:10
Onjalé Scott Price
So we heard from Sandy Feinman Silva about what is internalized racism and what causes it. And I think I may have a slightly different take than what I think Sandy had on that one.
00:03:14:12 - 00:03:17:03
Rev. Will Mebane
That's interesting because I have a similar reaction. Yeah.
00:03:17:04 - 00:03:17:26
Onjalé Scott Price
Okay.
00:03:17:28 - 00:03:37:18
Onjalé Scott Price
So I think this is going to be really interesting conversation. But before I begin with some of my thoughts, I'd like to introduce our guests. We have Doctor Alex Petoskey and associate professor of counseling psychology in the Department of Counseling, Educational and Development Psychology at Boston College. And thank you so much for making the trip down here. We're excited to have you with us.
00:03:37:21 - 00:03:40:18
Dr. Alex Pieterse
Thank you. Thank you for the invitation. Happy to be here.
00:03:40:20 - 00:03:53:19
Onjalé Scott Price
Great. So I'd like to start with you. And either what you would like to respond to Sandy and her thoughts, internalized racism. Or if you have different thoughts about about the question.
00:03:53:22 - 00:04:20:00
Dr. Alex Pieterse
First of all, it's a very important question. It has lots of implications, even for psychological health. The first thought that comes to mind is actually a quotation that I put on the front of my dissertation, which is a quotation from Stephen Biko, who has some relevance to me being someone from South Africa and Biko, Biko being the champion of black consciousness in South Africa.
00:04:20:03 - 00:04:45:00
Dr. Alex Pieterse
Had a really interesting quote, which simply was, the greatest tool in the hands of the oppressor is the minds of the is the mind of the oppressor, which simply is if we start to see ourselves in the same light as the people who are oppressing us. And in some sense, they've won the battle. We internalized that sense of inferiority.
00:04:45:00 - 00:04:48:24
Dr. Alex Pieterse
So that's what came to mind when, when I heard the question.
00:04:48:26 - 00:05:08:03
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing as I took the question a little bit differently. And thinking about internalized racism as literally internalizing the systems of racism and that oppression. So I look forward to continuing to hear your thoughts on that. I'd like to welcome Doctor Donna Jackson, old friend of mine, clinical psychologist with a private practice.
00:05:08:03 - 00:05:10:14
Rev. Will Mebane
She can't be that old because you're not that old.
00:05:10:16 - 00:05:11:27
Onjalé Scott Price
So they're older.
00:05:11:29 - 00:05:22:23
Onjalé Scott Price
Yes, I know mine. I have a new friend here. An old, old ish friend of mine, a clinical psychologist with private practice here in Falmouth. So thank you so much for joining us today.
00:05:22:26 - 00:05:27:03
Dr. Donna Jackson
Thank you. I'm here on live well, taping.
00:05:27:05 - 00:05:40:13
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah. Is the last time we had you we were, we're still on zoom, so it's nice to to be able to do this in person now. Yeah. So I'd like to ask you if you have any comments on what Sandy said or if you have other thoughts on what internalized racism is and, and what causes it.
00:05:40:15 - 00:06:02:01
Dr. Donna Jackson
Yeah, I mean, I one of the things Sandy said was she wasn't sure there was much you could do about it. I found that a little disheartening and that you could go to therapy or have a stiff upper lip is what I remember. I don't I'm correct me if I'm wrong, but, I don't know if either of those options are really the, best route to go.
00:06:02:02 - 00:06:30:02
Dr. Donna Jackson
I think there's, a lot of things we can hopefully do about it, but I think the conversation we're about to have and kind of take this jumping off point, is really how do we start to have a conversation? Because one of the things I was more dismayed by was when I went to do a little looking around about the coverage on, the whole implication of policing in another death of a young black man.
00:06:30:05 - 00:06:43:10
Dr. Donna Jackson
There wasn't as much coverage as I thought. There wasn't as much conversation. And that was concerning to me. Is why are we not talking about it more? So I'm really glad that you're bringing it here.
00:06:43:12 - 00:06:56:07
Onjalé Scott Price
Thanks. Yeah, that's that's what we aim to do is bring out those conversations that may be sometimes difficult to have, but are really important. So let me ask my my trusty copilot over here, Reverend. Well, what do you think?
00:06:56:09 - 00:07:30:01
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, a couple of things. So that. Donna, if I can refer to you that way. You know, your comment about, police brutality or what I call police lynching of know African-American, women and men. And, is really what kind of prompted us to have this, this conversation, as a show topic and was just after the, the beating and killing of, the young man in Memphis, Tyree Nichols, I think, was its name.
00:07:30:03 - 00:07:41:03
Rev. Will Mebane
And, you know, one of the things that happened was people seem to be shocked that the police officer who was engaged in that act were black.
00:07:41:08 - 00:07:42:02
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah.
00:07:42:05 - 00:08:11:22
Rev. Will Mebane
Right. And people were looking I oh, they were black. So I was like, okay, well, why would that be surprising? I mean, I can understand maybe why would be surprising to folks. And it reminded me and the, the when I think about internalized racism, it's more along the lines of what you that looks, if I may with said, you know, it's when you began as a person that's oppressed, to believe what's being said about you.
00:08:11:29 - 00:08:35:00
Rev. Will Mebane
Right. You begin to learn to believe that you're not worthy, right? That you are if you're black, that you are. You know, I am lazy. Or if people accuse you of that or, make other stereotypical comments about you and accusations towards you, you begin to believe that. And so you begin to operate out of that. That's how you begin to function.
00:08:35:02 - 00:09:16:05
Rev. Will Mebane
And so that was my understanding of internalized racism. And, and I when I think about those police officers, those black police officers that beat may you rest in peace, Terry Nichols, like that. And since then, we've had another case in, Chesterfield, Virginia. I think it is, where there were police officers and, care professionals in a, I think, psychiatric center or something that, 12 of them, a 14 of them were on top of this black male, who ended up dying from a situation being smothered to death.
00:09:16:05 - 00:09:35:01
Rev. Will Mebane
Right. And most of those were black folks and brown folks. So I was like, okay, all right. So, yeah, that that's above my thinking. It's, you know, you know, I love Sandy. I think she's terrific. We've had her on the show several times, but I've had, you know, I had a little different take and sounds like you did.
00:09:35:01 - 00:09:52:00
Onjalé Scott Price
Also, you know, and I think that's why we have this show, right, is to have is to hear what people have to say about these different topics and discuss them. And I immediately when I think about internalized racism, I think about my own upbringing and childhood. And when I was in high school, I spent a lot of time with my best friends, family, and I love them dearly.
00:09:52:00 - 00:10:12:05
Onjalé Scott Price
They they were wonderful to me. The mother was Mexican and the father was white. And, you know, they just they had a very different experience than I did growing up. And I recall, you know, certain comments being made like, oh, you're well, you're not really black. And, you know, but being like us is better because we, you know, we have this and that.
00:10:12:07 - 00:10:29:12
Onjalé Scott Price
And, you know, at some point I don't necessarily fault them. That's just that's what they knew and they just didn't have any other experiences. But it took a long time for me to unlearn some of that. And, you know, now I'm a really big supporter of my historically black colleges. I wish I had gone to one, too, because of all the experiences I had.
00:10:29:12 - 00:10:45:04
Onjalé Scott Price
But when it was time for me to choose colleges, I didn't really seriously consider them because I didn't think that that was going to be the best place for me. I didn't think that I was going to be amongst the best and the brightest because of what I had internalized, and I now know that that is completely wrong.
00:10:45:04 - 00:11:01:05
Onjalé Scott Price
And, you know, I wish I could go back and have gone to an HBCU. But those are the kinds of things that I thought about was all the ways that I've had to unlearn all of these things that I was taught, whether people actually said them to me or I just kind of absorbed them, the situations that I was in.
00:11:01:07 - 00:11:17:07
Onjalé Scott Price
And so that's what I think about with internalized racism, is that the oppressor has made me believe these lies, and now I have to unlearn them. But it's only because I was conscious that these were lies and I'm able to unlearn them. If I had never come to that realization, I might still believe some of these things.
00:11:17:09 - 00:11:37:23
Dr. Donna Jackson
You know, I think it's hard with the brutality. I really don't I don't watch a lot of the things. I actually don't watch the news. I made a decision a long time ago. I read the news instead because when we watch things and we don't know what's coming next and it's brutal or it's violent, it's traumatic. You can get retraumatize.
00:11:37:27 - 00:11:59:20
Dr. Donna Jackson
And for, you know, some of the articles I did see out there were sort of cautioning black Americans about watching yet another video and also talking about what does it mean to send forward this video and diminish the, brutality and, you know, treat it like it's, something that you would just pass along because it's it really should not be.
00:11:59:22 - 00:12:06:24
Dr. Donna Jackson
And there's both the benefit now of having the video tapes, but we've had videotaping for a while now and it continues right.
00:12:06:26 - 00:12:08:22
Rev. Will Mebane
Rodney King yeah, yeah.
00:12:08:25 - 00:12:35:28
Dr. Donna Jackson
1991 to now. Yeah. Right. So so we're not learning from it. So why my question is it's not just internalized racism ism with the police force and the idea of the history of policing in the United States, it's institutionalized racism and after watching the video, it took me a while to have empathy for everyone, because obviously, my heart went out to this young man who had this, you know, 29 years, a father.
00:12:36:00 - 00:12:56:06
Dr. Donna Jackson
But then I realized, oh, everybody's lives are rolling down all I know nothing about, nor do I honestly really want to know much more about the aggressors in the situation. But they did not, probably did not go into the force thinking, one day I'm going to do this, that don't have the authority and the right and I'll they didn't do that.
00:12:56:08 - 00:13:20:01
Dr. Donna Jackson
So now their lives are ruined. They're more likely to be fired because they are black Americans, so they're more likely to be fired quickly, which they were, and prosecute it. So there's the institutionalized racism within policing. And one of the I mean, you could talk a lot more given your I did look you up. You have incredible knowledge.
00:13:20:04 - 00:13:22:16
Dr. Alex Pieterse
That could be dangerous.
00:13:22:18 - 00:13:40:23
Dr. Donna Jackson
But you do. You have a lot of knowledge around racial identity and, you know, and so what does it mean, you know, to be black? What does it mean to be a police officer? Because there's also a blue identity that gets talked about. Right? And now if you have these competing identities and you're having a threat response.
00:13:40:25 - 00:14:08:27
Dr. Donna Jackson
So I'm going to defer a little bit more to Alex around talking about some things I do want people to understand. When you're having a threat response, you are not responding the same way you would in another situation. And when that get that's gotten lost completely in this situation, why was this young man considered a threat for he's pulled over for an alleged, suspicious or reckless driving, right, right.
00:14:08:27 - 00:14:32:26
Dr. Donna Jackson
Allegedly reckless driving. And it escalated very quickly. Right. So I'll talk. That's the piece. I think we all have to start understanding around when what is the threat and what are we doing when we're under threat. And then and then when you throw race and you throw, power like authority into that and it can go down, it did.
00:14:32:26 - 00:14:55:27
Dr. Donna Jackson
It goes downhill really fast. And the only other thing I was thinking too, around the gender piece. So when Sandy did the comment for On the Street, I thought of Sandra Bland because of the name similarity, and I thought she was around the same age. She even pulled over some alleged, you know, small minor thing. And three days later she was gone.
00:14:55:27 - 00:15:16:27
Dr. Donna Jackson
And, you know, the family continues to have to deal with that. And they try to educate people. They were here at the Woods Home Film Festival a few years ago with the film, and it's just heartbreaking. So like for this, for Tyree's family and for all the police officers, like all the trauma that goes at an interpersonal level.
00:15:16:29 - 00:15:44:08
Dr. Donna Jackson
But we still aren't getting to the bottom of institutionally. What how do we see the racism and the disproportionate use of lethal force and the disproportionate, traffic stops for young black men? You know, color of the police officers has increased in terms of diversity on the forces. But that's not necessarily solving the problem.
00:15:44:10 - 00:15:49:21
Rev. Will Mebane
Because the operating within that institutionalized racism system. Yeah, I would.
00:15:49:24 - 00:15:51:11
Onjalé Scott Price
Are you all right? Yeah, I.
00:15:51:11 - 00:15:56:04
Rev. Will Mebane
Think that's but I don't have the credentials that two of you do. So Alex, what do you what do.
00:15:56:04 - 00:15:58:02
Dr. Alex Pieterse
You think of the lived credentials. No.
00:15:58:06 - 00:16:01:04
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, I don't know. The man that I lived.
00:16:01:05 - 00:16:06:05
Onjalé Scott Price
Lived experiences are not usually considered credentials. But you're absolutely right. They are.
00:16:06:07 - 00:16:36:03
Dr. Alex Pieterse
So I was really struck by your comments about threats, and I was thinking about how, the connection between being perceived as a threat based on your skin color and how the institutions then in some, in some way reinforce that idea. So I'll give you, a simple, not simplistic, but a simple example. Years ago, I was coming across the border with my son.
00:16:36:06 - 00:16:59:20
Dr. Alex Pieterse
We've been blessed with three boys. I was with my middle son. This was years ago. I think he was six or so at the time. We went up in Niagara. I was coming back and as we were waiting to cross the border from Canada into the US and before us in the car, before there was a family who were white, and the interaction between the family and the Border Patrol person was very pleasant.
00:16:59:22 - 00:17:20:08
Dr. Alex Pieterse
There was laughing and joking, and you could kind of feel the energy from the from the car just looking at it. When we got the, the Border Patrol was it was a white male. When we got there, the feeling changed very quickly and it almost felt like an interrogation. Where have you been? What do you do, etc. and there was an edge to it.
00:17:20:11 - 00:17:44:10
Dr. Alex Pieterse
So, you know, I as you need to do. Of course, I responded respectfully and then we drove off. What struck me was what my son said. He said to me, daddy, why was that man talking to you like that? That. So I said to him, I think he just wants to check to make sure that we are who we are, and it's okay for him to let us back home.
00:17:44:12 - 00:17:51:03
Dr. Alex Pieterse
So my son said, but why wouldn't he let us back? This is our home.
00:17:51:05 - 00:17:51:28
Onjalé Scott Price
00:17:52:00 - 00:18:14:29
Dr. Alex Pieterse
So this is a six year old starting to make sense of this whole idea of somehow there's something going on here. You know, there needs to be this double checking to make sure. And so it's about this thread who people see us, how we make sense of that. And then these messages get reinforced right by the institutions.
00:18:15:02 - 00:18:21:22
Dr. Alex Pieterse
And so I think it's that connection between institutions and personal behavior that makes it very challenging.
00:18:21:24 - 00:18:45:16
Onjalé Scott Price
You know, it is when when you're taught things that we now I would use myself an example now. No to be untrue when you're taught that and then reinforce that came all the time. So you know what I, what I mentioned growing up, some of the things that I heard and I don't know if you ever heard this or if you ever heard this, but if you are articulate and you speak well, what do people say?
00:18:45:18 - 00:18:46:24
Onjalé Scott Price
You want to finish that sentence for me?
00:18:46:24 - 00:18:47:25
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, I'm not sure.
00:18:48:01 - 00:18:53:06
Onjalé Scott Price
Okay, well, what I hear a lot and I know people in my generation say, oh, you speak white, you speak well.
00:18:53:06 - 00:18:53:20
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah.
00:18:53:22 - 00:18:55:12
Dr. Alex Pieterse
Yeah. You talk like that.
00:18:55:15 - 00:18:55:23
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah.
00:18:55:23 - 00:19:00:19
Dr. Alex Pieterse
In South Africa, where the same dynamic people that say stop trying to be white.
00:19:00:21 - 00:19:01:00
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:01:02 - 00:19:02:06
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:19:02:09 - 00:19:23:00
Onjalé Scott Price
Can I just back up for a second and say how fascinating it is, how black culture can be a it can be just across continents, across cultures. There are just some things that just happen to black people in black culture, something like that in South Africa versus Southern California. And and, you know, I was just going to say Buffalo.
00:19:23:00 - 00:19:36:08
Onjalé Scott Price
I knew that was wrong. I was getting there. I was getting there. North Carolina, you know, it just and and my husband, who's also from North Carolina, it's it's amazing how many things that I'll say this happened to you or like when you went to your grandma's house and you saw this, what was in it. And it's just fascinating.
00:19:36:11 - 00:19:48:11
Onjalé Scott Price
I feel like that could be a whole nother conversation. My point is, so when I, when I did go off to college and I, and I was at a predominantly white institution and I was an engineer, which means I was also a minority. So that's.
00:19:48:12 - 00:19:49:06
Rev. Will Mebane
Really white.
00:19:49:09 - 00:20:08:08
Onjalé Scott Price
It's really like, yeah, it's really male dominated. The ratio of men to women at my school was 7 to 1. It's 6 to 1 now. They boast but 7 to 1. And I and I remember I had a professor and I was struggling in his class aircraft dynamics because that was hard. And I went to his office and he said, well, people like you generally just don't do well in my class.
00:20:08:10 - 00:20:22:05
Onjalé Scott Price
And it just it brought up all the things that I felt like I had learned over the years of, like, you're not good enough and you're not smart enough. And yeah, I failed this class and I had to retake it with somebody else because I didn't I didn't feel like I could go to his office after that and ask him for help.
00:20:22:05 - 00:20:42:29
Onjalé Scott Price
And there weren't specific tutors for that. So. So anyway, my point is that when you have those, when you're taught certain things and when you have these beliefs, whether they're true or not, then the systems, the institutions in place reinforce that. It's really difficult to come from underneath that and to learn that that's wrong and and then to move past that.
00:20:42:29 - 00:20:53:25
Onjalé Scott Price
Even so, it's one thing to recognize it's wrong, then it's another thing to say this is wrong. And what am I going to do about it? What am I going to learn to do and be different?
00:20:53:28 - 00:21:32:08
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, this is reminding me, I think I've told this story before on the on the conversation when I was admitted to, the University of North Carolina, my father was summoned to the admissions office with me, and I was admitted as a, probationary student. Right. And I'll never forget the admissions. The assistant director of admissions said to my father, Mr. Madman, now, when your son slots out, not if your son flunks out or should just sign out.
00:21:32:11 - 00:22:02:04
Rev. Will Mebane
When will flunks out? Don't be surprised. You know, and my father said, well, why would you say that? And he said, well, at that point, 77 0% of black students entering the university of North Carolina flunked out. So the projection was on to me just based on skin color. Okay, maybe my academic record as well. I'll give them that, which wasn't stellar.
00:22:02:06 - 00:22:27:09
Rev. Will Mebane
And at least not to their, standards. The presumption was that I was not going to be able to make it right. And I remember driving home, from Chapel Hill to Durham, North Carolina, and my father didn't say a word in the car the whole eight mile drive. Right. But I know what he was thinking, which was.
00:22:27:11 - 00:22:30:20
Rev. Will Mebane
You better not not go home.
00:22:30:20 - 00:22:58:15
Rev. Will Mebane
You are not going to live into their expectations. You have your own expectations. So I think about what you were saying and about how, you know, I could have internalized that and gone there and said, well, I'm not going to succeed anyway. So let me have fun. You know what? I can and enjoy campus life. But instead, I was a, Dean's List student for a semester.
00:22:58:19 - 00:23:09:27
Rev. Will Mebane
That was Dean's list man. The instructor said a semester, sophomore year, I played a like to get back on it.
00:23:09:29 - 00:23:11:19
Onjalé Scott Price
But you started off strong.
00:23:11:21 - 00:23:39:04
Rev. Will Mebane
That's been a start, you know? But, yeah, there's this. And I feel like I'm doing too much of the talking. So I'm just saying it's also in my vocation as a, as a priest, in the Episcopal Church, you know, I don't wear my collar as much as I used to. And but when I started out, I said, you know, I got to wear my collar because people aren't used to seeing a black priest.
00:23:39:06 - 00:23:40:05
Onjalé Scott Price
Representation matters.
00:23:40:05 - 00:24:03:23
Rev. Will Mebane
So how many black Episcopal priest do you know? But so to try to counter that indoctrination that you can't be right. I just, I work more to try to be a, quote, role model or model in some way, but what what are you, Donald? What you thinking? As we continue here?
00:24:03:24 - 00:24:04:24
Sandra Faiman-Silva
00:24:04:26 - 00:24:24:26
Dr. Donna Jackson
Well, I think that's I'm. I'm glad we're having the conversation. But the other phrase when parents, black parents have to have that conversation with their kids, right. The other that conversation. Because if we do look at what happened to Tyrone Nichols and then having five black police officers, if all those kids at some point, their parents said, if you ever get pulled over by the cops.
00:24:24:28 - 00:24:25:13
Rev. Will Mebane
Yep.
00:24:25:16 - 00:25:01:04
Dr. Donna Jackson
Yep. Particularly because if you're young and you're black and you're male, you're in trouble, but you don't have a lot of options. So when you're under threat, so the police experience a threat to. So that's the problem. Both people have the potential to be in threat. Right. The police are it is dangerous for them to do a stop and detain, but they're supposed to be trained to do do it a certain way in, to keep them safe and to follow what the options, the legal options are under those circumstances.
00:25:01:06 - 00:25:38:15
Dr. Donna Jackson
And so when both parties go into threat mode, though, all bets are off because you're, you're actually now your amygdala is on fire and you are going to have several options fight, flight, freeze or fun. And that's it. Both parties those are if once they're in threat mode, they're both going to do that. Yeah. And if you throw in implicit bias and racism and different competing stereotypes, it's going to and it's not going to go well.
00:25:38:15 - 00:26:08:26
Dr. Donna Jackson
And if people can't recognize they're entering into that potential situation, enter into a situation where I might have bias at play. I'm entering into a situation where I'm going to have a threat response, and then I'm not going to think as clearly under those circumstances. But, you know, the reality is it's a high risk situation. Then if you get pulled over and your rights aren't being, you know, your rights aren't going to be followed.
00:26:08:26 - 00:26:34:26
Dr. Donna Jackson
That's what happened to Sandra Bland. You're her rights were just violated. So it's not just about, you know, if you get pulled over and the person next to you is treating you with a racial stereotype that you can't do much about because they have the power, it's that they also can be aggressive and violent, and you will not have it doesn't.
00:26:34:29 - 00:26:56:08
Dr. Donna Jackson
Tyrone Nichols tried to do I don't watch a lot of these things. It's hard. It replays in my head. That's partly why I don't watch these. The videos he did every single thing he could to get out of that. And he still couldn't get out of it. So and what made five men see him as a threat.
00:26:56:11 - 00:27:30:01
Dr. Donna Jackson
Five armed men see this. You a young man as a threat and continue to do what they did. And then the two EMTs arrived on site and didn't provide care. So it's again, around the disregard that the person you're it's not it's just a level of disregard for another human being. It goes a little beyond it's a power dynamic at that point around who is going to be able to determine the outcome of this interaction.
00:27:30:03 - 00:28:00:00
Dr. Donna Jackson
And so gender does play a role because you do have aggression, right? And men in general, violent crimes, lethal force by police all tend to be more male occur with met with men where we don't have enough women on the force maybe to compare it, but you know, I kind of in the in the policing and how we talk about policing because that gets things really stirred up politically in the country.
00:28:00:00 - 00:28:33:23
Dr. Donna Jackson
Right along political lines too. So, I mean, again, I'm concerned that we're not having the next level of the conversation around, you know, internalized racism is important. Institutional racism is important. But it's we keep allowing violence and aggression to happen with a lawsuit. It doesn't do anything on videotapes, not doing anything. Like, why is the aggression continuing to be somehow permitted?
00:28:33:25 - 00:29:10:18
Dr. Alex Pieterse
So I you know, that's a big question. I would and, dare to jump into that question. And other than to say that, you know, we should not be surprised. So the foundation of our country is genocide and enslavement, incredibly violent means. And so I get cautious when people say, you know, let's let's think about these without realizing that this is just an extension of what has always been, you know, so so where do we start?
00:29:10:20 - 00:29:26:03
Dr. Alex Pieterse
Where do we intervene? You know, we tend to to, you know, let's let's do a program to work on police fires and, you know, but we need to pull back and and how does violence get played out in our society in general.
00:29:26:05 - 00:29:26:24
Dr. Donna Jackson
00:29:26:27 - 00:29:45:14
Dr. Alex Pieterse
So that's the one thought, the other thought I have in regard to, you know, your discussion about police violence threat is some of the work that I'm doing with Robert Carter and other colleagues on racial trauma. And I'll share with you how how pervasive this is. So I'm driving down from Boston.
00:29:45:14 - 00:29:47:08
Onjalé Scott Price
Oh, no.
00:29:47:10 - 00:30:11:02
Dr. Alex Pieterse
Driving down from Boston, you know, 1993. I forget the names of the the hour and 20 minute trip. I only see one car that's been pulled over by the state troopers. And it just so happens that the two occupants that are pulled over are two young black men. No, I've got I've got no sense of. But that's what I see.
00:30:11:05 - 00:30:14:07
Dr. Alex Pieterse
What is tracking for me is where that takes my mind.
00:30:14:09 - 00:30:15:16
Rev. Will Mebane
00:30:15:18 - 00:30:31:12
Dr. Alex Pieterse
So all of a sudden I'm thinking so what does it mean. Did they do anything. Are they going to be safe. And then it takes me two experiences where I've been stopped and I've been literally shaking, not knowing if I'm going to see my family, knowing I've done nothing wrong. And so it's so that's trauma.
00:30:31:14 - 00:30:32:03
Onjalé Scott Price
00:30:32:05 - 00:31:07:14
Dr. Alex Pieterse
That is trauma. Now you might say it's kind of low level trauma, but imagine that playing out day by day, year by year. And so that's some of the work we're trying to understand. And it's, and it's pervasive, you know, and at the heart of trauma is a sense of not being safe. You know, so so that's where some of my thoughts took me as I was, as I was listening and hearing, you know, your musings on violence, gender, police brutality, and it feels overwhelming.
00:31:07:16 - 00:31:26:14
Onjalé Scott Price
Let me ask a question, if I can, about the trauma that you're referring to. So, Donna, you mentioned not watching the videos. And I know I've struggled with this, and I think we've talked about this on the show at some point about the juxtaposition I guess I feel about these videos. One hand, I don't want to watch them.
00:31:26:16 - 00:31:48:17
Onjalé Scott Price
I don't want to I don't want to relive the trauma. I have my own traumas. I don't need to see it to understand it. Then part of me feels like I owe it to this person who has lost their life to understand what happened to them. And, and I, I, I wrestle with that. So I haven't seen that video and I there's other ones that I, there's, I've seen enough that I play them in my head often.
00:31:48:20 - 00:32:12:20
Onjalé Scott Price
And so it's a kind of wonder, you know, watching those videos and, and reliving that trauma. What is what is that what is that doing to me? If there's if there's even an answer to that, should I, should I be should I be doing that. In, in your, in your opinion, you know, I don't know if I'm quite asking the right question, but it's something that I know I wrestle with, and I'd like I'd like your opinion on it.
00:32:12:23 - 00:32:13:21
Dr. Alex Pieterse
What are your thoughts?
00:32:13:23 - 00:32:38:24
Dr. Donna Jackson
I think it's good to wrestle with it. Because each time you do watch a video, it's not a video. It's real. It's not a movie. It's, It. You run the risk of being retraumatized. So you have to know where you're at with your own stress level, with your own history of trauma. And there's a way to honor someone lost their life.
00:32:38:27 - 00:33:05:01
Dr. Donna Jackson
Without necessarily having to view the video. But there are times when maybe, you know this. I did feel like I needed to bear witness, because I did need to understand. I didn't want to just read someone's report about what happened. I only watched one of the, videotapes because they were several. But I do think it's important if you're going to be trying to think, because it is overwhelming to think about how do we address trauma?
00:33:05:01 - 00:33:38:03
Dr. Donna Jackson
How do we start to make some changes so people feel safe? They feel like everyone belongs in there. This is our home. Like we are a country built on slavery. And now we're all here living together and we don't know how to talk about it. We are not still treating each other fairly or equally. And, so I think we have to be careful about how much we get the trauma takes, because it can get to a point where you're not going to be coping as well.
00:33:38:10 - 00:34:12:23
Dr. Donna Jackson
Yeah. So I think you do have to protect yourself and then continue to, try to do what you can, you know, in your life, in your community, you know, in larger settings, if you can. But I think you have to be careful about trauma. It does. It's hard to recover from, like multiple traumas each time you get traumatized, you know, and there's little T traumas and then big T traumas.
00:34:12:23 - 00:34:41:29
Dr. Donna Jackson
So, you know, big time trauma would be, abuse, a risk of your, you know, death. And, violence. But the little t traumas are all the little everyday things that you go through getting pulled over, being, you know, in that moment, afraid, you know, and someone yelling a new something at you is a little t trauma, you know, and they are cumulative.
00:34:41:29 - 00:35:01:10
Dr. Donna Jackson
So I would say if, you know yourself and know how to, you know, maybe find support, you know, find ways to, find just take care of yourself, you know, physically, mentally, emotionally.
00:35:01:13 - 00:35:03:02
Onjalé Scott Price
Thank you. What do you what are your thoughts on.
00:35:03:05 - 00:35:27:05
Dr. Alex Pieterse
You know, the, so this is something that I struggle with so personally, I choose not to watch it. And for me, it does nothing other than stir up feelings. But I could, but I wouldn't say to people who don't watch it, I would say make a choice, understand why you are watching it. And be attentive to the emotions that it does produce.
00:35:27:08 - 00:35:54:23
Dr. Alex Pieterse
And for some. No, no. You know, what's driving you? The meaning associated with you watching it and then understanding that it is going to have some impact. And so so that's how I think of it. The tricky piece is I'm thinking of, you know, some of the really iconic pictures that came out of, you know, Jim Crow even before pictures of folk being lynched, you know, that those are so difficult to see.
00:35:54:26 - 00:36:19:24
Dr. Alex Pieterse
And at the same time, they have some utility. And it brought attention, you know, so so I get that, but for me personally, I choose not to. And then I think about how can I honor because I think in watching sometimes we do watch in an an attempt to honor the life of the person. I'm thinking what otherwise kind of honor that life that was taken.
00:36:20:01 - 00:36:41:26
Dr. Alex Pieterse
Yeah. But I, I for me personally, I don't, you know, 2 or 3 years ago, I think a young, a young Hispanic or Latino boy was shot in Chicago who was 13. I remember this clearly. I think it was a Wednesday with this time. My wife, our youngest son, who was 11 at the time and I was at home.
00:36:41:26 - 00:37:04:15
Dr. Alex Pieterse
And typically we don't watch the news together as a family. For some reason it was on and I mentioned this I will 11 year old son started weeping. Just awful weeping. I had no words. Yeah, the only thing I can do in that moment was holding, you know, he didn't need to see it.
00:37:04:17 - 00:37:05:16
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah.
00:37:05:19 - 00:37:16:21
Dr. Alex Pieterse
You know, so I would not say don't watch it, but I would say, be it, be attention, be attentive, be intentional, and understand that this is going to be impactful. It's going to have some impact.
00:37:16:24 - 00:37:23:00
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah. Well I appreciate your thoughts on that. Thank you.
00:37:23:03 - 00:37:31:12
Rev. Will Mebane
I do watch it. What does that make me a masochist or say this or what is one of those.
00:37:31:12 - 00:37:33:27
Onjalé Scott Price
Oh no.
00:37:33:29 - 00:38:08:10
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, but what, what I worry about is the, desensitization. Right. That there's so much of it that. Oh, it's just and the cumulative effect that it's just become just. Oh, that's just that's just the way it is. That's just another what happens. Oh, there's another one. Right. And, so that bothers me. I think there's so much of it that's broadcast that, that does create this sort of desensitization.
00:38:08:10 - 00:38:28:17
Rev. Will Mebane
And, and I, we've been thinking about this following the shootings in, in Nashville, of the three children and the nine year olds and the, the faculty and staff that were killed in this latest mass shooting and.
00:38:28:19 - 00:38:49:13
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, I'm thinking about what you said, Alex, about violence in this country and people keep wrestling with, why don't we do anything about it? Why aren't we doing anything to stop this? Because we are a violent nation. Yeah, that's why we don't do anything about it. It's part of our core. It's in our DNA. This country was founded on violence.
00:38:49:18 - 00:39:14:07
Rev. Will Mebane
It loves guns. It loves death and destruction. And it would take up. I don't know what it would take. I don't know someone with better skills than I have. And probably a cadre of good folks like you all to try to. Is that the psyche? To try to change the psyche of how we, you know.
00:39:14:09 - 00:39:46:06
Dr. Alex Pieterse
So, you know, you know, the it's your comment is so interesting and powerful because violence is the norm in our country across the board, violence directed at people of color, it's the norm. And so when we had this, this shooting that occurred just two days ago yesterday, I had a class called Lovely Cross Undergrad students. And the focus of the class is on structural impediments to healthy development amongst children and adolescents.
00:39:46:06 - 00:40:01:28
Dr. Alex Pieterse
And so we were talking about school violence, and we had the sense of, you know, when did this become normal? And so on one hand, it's normal, but on the other hand, it's not normal.
00:40:02:00 - 00:40:03:07
Onjalé Scott Price
yeah
00:40:03:09 - 00:40:17:02
Dr. Alex Pieterse
It is not normal that this goes against the experience of being a human. But it's so normal in our society. And I'm saying to the students and we talking together, what can we do to make sure that it doesn't become normal? Right.
00:40:17:07 - 00:40:23:14
Onjalé Scott Price
It's not. It's not, it's normal, but it's not acceptable. Oh, but it's also not normal.
00:40:23:16 - 00:40:29:12
Rev. Will Mebane
And it's not normal in other developed countries. Right. And this is just basically on their.
00:40:29:17 - 00:40:30:05
Onjalé Scott Price
Just us.
00:40:30:08 - 00:40:43:17
Rev. Will Mebane
Phenomenon. Right. But I go that takes me back to though I founding and the violence that is at the core of our founding, we probably should move to the next.
00:40:43:17 - 00:41:03:23
Onjalé Scott Price
Class, you know. Yeah, we probably should. Thank you so much for that. All right. So we will we will move on to our next question now, which is how do you overcome internalized racism or do you just live with it? So let's hear what Sandy had to say about that.
00:41:03:25 - 00:41:40:02
Sandra Faiman-Silva
I think it's very difficult. I'm not sure that, there there's much you can do. I mean, you can get therapy, or you can have, stiff upper lip, but, when you're retraumatized, it continues to endure. I think that if in many, many communities, it's a trans generational crisis, Native Americans, African Americans, Jews have histories that are very painful in our country and in our world.
00:41:40:04 - 00:42:00:12
Sandra Faiman-Silva
And I think they probably continue to be retraumatized, through the media, through news, through, episodes of racism, anti-Semitism, whatever that happened in our communities. These are events that would retraumatize.
00:42:00:15 - 00:42:14:06
Onjalé Scott Price
So we're now moving on kind of in a discussion to talk about internalized racism and what do we do about it? And I'd like to start with you, Alex. What do you think about what Sandy had to say and what we do about it?
00:42:14:08 - 00:42:16:03
Dr. Alex Pieterse
I've got a lot of thoughts, please.
00:42:16:05 - 00:42:16:18
Onjalé Scott Price
We've got all.
00:42:16:18 - 00:42:41:27
Dr. Alex Pieterse
Day, so I'll try to keep them. Keep them limited. So I've got a couple of thoughts. So the so we do know, based on research, that there are strategies or interventions that families, parents can bring that can kind of shift the, the way people see themselves. And so I'm thinking of this fairly large body of literature on racial socialization.
00:42:41:29 - 00:43:10:15
Dr. Alex Pieterse
And that's really and it's in the context of family development. And so the idea is that and a lot of this has been done with black families that, parents or guardians or caregivers can kind of counter the messages that are provided, to young people about who they are. According to the racial group membership. And part of the countering is teaching cultural history, facilitating racial identity development.
00:43:10:18 - 00:43:35:21
Dr. Alex Pieterse
Also teaching our young people how to be prepared for racial discrimination, recognizing that when something happens to you, it's not because you've done something, but it's something that's happening to you. And so ways in which you can protect yourself. Yeah. So, so there's that, there's that level and then there's also, kind of the larger societal level.
00:43:35:23 - 00:44:01:00
Dr. Alex Pieterse
Yeah. And I think this, this goes to we were talking in the bank about, some of Sandy's comments about, the transgenerational transmission of, of trauma and also crisis, you know, so, often communities of color are seen to experience crisis or be in crisis. And we tend to understand that in the context of our history. Right.
00:44:01:03 - 00:44:23:24
Dr. Alex Pieterse
And that that narrative, I think, also feeds this idea of internalized racism. And so I think on a societal level, it's important to recognize that narrative, but also to know that there is another narrative, there's another narrative. You know, we are not only our trauma. There are ways in which people of color have contributed to this country enormously.
00:44:23:24 - 00:44:40:26
Dr. Alex Pieterse
Right. But the narrative that we are given and then through internalized racism, I think sometimes carry, is this narrative of trauma and crisis. Right. And but there is another narrative. And I think teaching the other narrative is one way to counter to counter internalized racial oppression.
00:44:41:00 - 00:45:00:11
Onjalé Scott Price
Absolutely. Yeah. I think about, movies often and I've said, I'm not watch another slave movie. I can't do it. Like, there are so many movies about us and our trauma. And yes, it's important to tell those stories, but a lot of times they're they're just movies. They're romanticized in many ways. And so we're not really talking about the brutality of it.
00:45:00:11 - 00:45:22:04
Onjalé Scott Price
We're not talking about chattel slavery when we're showing these films. But also there's a lot more to black people than just slavery, right? There's a whole continent of black people. We could we could make movies about. Right. There's a whole United States of black people, like, we could make movies about. And sometimes we do make movies. They have the white savior tropes that are in them, which is a whole rabbit hole I won't go into today.
00:45:22:07 - 00:45:33:20
Onjalé Scott Price
But, you know, there is another narrative that we don't, we don't often ever talk about. You have to you have to go find it if you want it, if you want to talk about it. You're going to I know you're going to say something. Well.
00:45:33:20 - 00:46:03:21
Rev. Will Mebane
Oh, gosh. You know, I want to ask. I want to ask the, the two of you and Don and Alex help us understand. And our our viewers understand how, as I understand it, the the most recent, DSM manuals for, coding clinical, disorders or behaviors and what have you. Yeah, I don't know.
00:46:03:24 - 00:46:21:13
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, has has said that, racism, is a contributor to a cause of, of PTSD in black folks. So can you just in my reading that. Wait, am I hearing that correctly? What what's happening in the medical field around.
00:46:21:13 - 00:46:24:28
Dr. Donna Jackson
So I'm not always a huge fan of the DSM.
00:46:24:28 - 00:46:25:29
Rev. Will Mebane
Okay.
00:46:26:02 - 00:46:52:17
Dr. Donna Jackson
The DSM is the diagnostic and statistical manual that you for insurance purposes, you have to diagnose people. It has a number letter code. And that's how. And it's also how you get reimbursed from insurance. But it's also then how you decide on a decision tree when someone comes in based on their symptoms, you know, you have to describe in a shorthand to other people, what do you think they're dealing with?
00:46:52:17 - 00:46:57:28
Onjalé Scott Price
Oh, well, if insurance is involved, then it's probably whatever. Anyway.
00:46:58:00 - 00:47:29:23
Dr. Donna Jackson
But my the problem I have with that, it a lot of times is how it reduces things. It's very reductionistic and it doesn't put the person in context. So, you know, PTSD, you know, when you're looking at someone who has trauma based on what kind of trauma, and if they meet the criteria. So there's a checklist that you would say, do they meet the criteria for PTSD according to this checklist?
00:47:29:25 - 00:47:52:10
Dr. Donna Jackson
So if you're living in a society that where you're dealing with more trauma, based on your race, gender, age, you're going to have more cumulative trauma. Or if you ancestrally intergenerational trauma, which we know is real, they spend it is research. It also affects your physical health. It doesn't just affect your mental health. You're more likely to have high blood pressure.
00:47:52:10 - 00:48:24:02
Dr. Donna Jackson
You're more likely to have a lot of, you know, the risk is more the level of stress that you live with on a daily basis. And then if you do have trauma that is been life threatening and you develop PTSD or you have there's another category called acute stress response. There's nothing in there really for intergenerational transmission of trauma or for even day to day small, you know, traumas that people deal with.
00:48:24:04 - 00:48:56:20
Dr. Donna Jackson
So. I mean, I think internationally generational trauma is, you know, it goes when you start to think about race, you know, white people don't get a pass. Because race is something it's a social construct, right. So you have to include your own race in that it's not just black Americans that are living with, you know, how white Americans are not dealing with race and how that then is disproportionate.
00:48:56:22 - 00:49:25:00
Dr. Donna Jackson
They don't. You know, Janet Helms, who, had been it be you did the racial identity model and, so how you think about your own racial identity, how you think about your family and, what came before you? You know, you're I just want my concern is it's not until we think of this as a problem for us to figure out together and how we talk about it.
00:49:25:02 - 00:49:50:14
Dr. Donna Jackson
That's brings me back to when I looked at what happened with Tyree Nichols, and there wasn't a lot of coverage because people are afraid to talk about what's happening is you can't reduce it just to. The five police officers were black and Tyree Nichols was black. They were missing the whole point then, you know, so does it mean internalized racism was a part of of what happened?
00:49:50:17 - 00:50:11:06
Dr. Donna Jackson
Yes. But what it means was, you know, we've the structural racism in order for us to do something about that. The police police force is what's happening now with the police versus the history of the police. And not talking about the police were developed to keep slaves from running away.
00:50:11:08 - 00:50:14:20
Rev. Will Mebane
Please say that again. Please tell folks that.
00:50:14:23 - 00:50:40:07
Dr. Donna Jackson
But when we talk about the our history, we can't even talk about that history without it becoming people getting upset and it becoming divisive. Right. And that's white Americans dealing with their race. Why are white Americans threatened by a historical document that says the first grouping of law enforcement was to deal with runaway slaves? Why is that a threat to any white American living today?
00:50:40:07 - 00:51:03:08
Dr. Donna Jackson
That shouldn't be a threat. We're back to threat again. See, threat is not a real it's a perceived threat. So something about talking about that creates the threat response. People get defensive guilt. Guilt, defensive, overwhelmed. So they shut down. So as soon as you go into a threat response, your frontal lobes go offline. You are no longer able to be present.
00:51:03:13 - 00:51:16:09
Dr. Donna Jackson
And terms of thinking responding because your threat response is in your limbic system. Your amygdala lights up and you have four choices fight, flight, freeze, or fun. And until you.
00:51:16:13 - 00:51:17:06
Rev. Will Mebane
What's the fourth one.
00:51:17:10 - 00:51:18:00
Dr. Donna Jackson
Fawned
00:51:18:06 - 00:51:19:08
Onjalé Scott Price
Like a baby deer.
00:51:19:10 - 00:51:36:21
Dr. Donna Jackson
Yeah. So it but that's the image they use. But it has to do with you trying to be likable. You trying to make sure the other person doesn't perceive you as a threat. Oh that's okay. Yeah. So you try to do things like, oh, I'm not a threat to you, like, or I'm going to help you so that you can't get upset with me.
00:51:36:21 - 00:51:38:14
Onjalé Scott Price
I'm a cute little father and like, threat.
00:51:38:18 - 00:52:08:24
Dr. Donna Jackson
Yeah. I'm not a threat. You know, and that's how a lot of kids do survive, childhood trauma, right? They don't they don't can't freeze all the time. Some kids fight, some kids flee, but a lot of kids survive. But, like, I'm not going to be. And that's a harder one to undo as they get older. And it kind of puts them at further risk if they keep trying to please people, or they only in order to get their needs met, they have to worry about whether or not not someone else's emotional state is where that is.
00:52:08:27 - 00:52:36:29
Dr. Donna Jackson
So but I do think, like, we can't even have the conversation. Like we're not even at the point where we can say, why can't we talk about what happened? You know, without everybody getting a worked up and going into a threat response like, and yelling or, you know, a it's not about being right anymore. It's about we've accepted aggression is normal.
00:52:37:02 - 00:52:50:26
Dr. Donna Jackson
We've accepted we're accepting that people are continue to be treated differently when they get pulled over for a minor traffic violation.
00:52:50:29 - 00:53:05:17
Dr. Alex Pieterse
Them my mentor, Robert Carter, it's the same. How is it that black folk and other folk of color end up talking so much about race, when we aren't the ones who invented it?
00:53:05:19 - 00:53:06:12
Onjalé Scott Price
Great question.
00:53:06:15 - 00:53:34:22
Dr. Alex Pieterse
You know, the white folk actually have more expertise because they invented it. But I think we, you know, if we really have discussions, it means that changes to occur. And that's part of what keeps us from having discussions. I think I want to go back to your comment or your question on PTSD, which can open up a whole large discussion about race and mental illness and the function of professional psychology.
00:53:34:24 - 00:54:05:18
Dr. Alex Pieterse
The so hidden racism is a is a really useful illustration. If you look at the current DSM, DSM five, race related trauma is actually not part of the criteria for PTSD. So the the criteria is based on the threat. And then the accompanying kind of responses in both physical and psychological. And the specific racial threat is not listed as a potential threat for PTSD criteria.
00:54:05:20 - 00:54:37:19
Dr. Alex Pieterse
And so the a couple of ways we can think about that. One is that the history of mental health, like professional mental health in our country, has often excluded the experience of people of color or pathologized what all kind of, normal responses. So the most famous example is, Samuel Cartwright in South Carolina, I think in the 1840s or 1850s, introduced a new diagnostic classification that was applied to enslaved Africans.
00:54:37:21 - 00:54:54:16
Dr. Alex Pieterse
The title of the disease was called Draped Mania, and the disease was the kind of obsessive attempt of enslaved folk to run away. Oh, this is I'm. I'm not making this up.
00:54:54:19 - 00:54:55:16
Onjalé Scott Price
I believe you aren’t.
00:54:55:21 - 00:55:20:05
Dr. Alex Pieterse
So the classification was called Drive to Mania and the treatment, amongst others, was a good whipping. Okay, so this is part this was part of mental health treatment in that part of the country in the day. So in some ways, even our professional ways of treating mental health has either excluded the experiences of people of color or have pathologized our responses.
00:55:20:07 - 00:55:52:26
Dr. Alex Pieterse
So the work I'm doing now, also with my mentor, Robert Carter, is, in a sense, rethinking the impact of racism related trauma. And we actually question if PTSD is the best way to think about it. So we think of mental illness as a kind of interest psychic process. Yeah. But racism is something that's happening to you, which is the same with many other traumas, you know, so something happens to you, you have an emotional response which is appropriate, right?
00:55:53:01 - 00:56:34:26
Dr. Alex Pieterse
Why should that response be labeled? Psychopathology? You know, anger is a very appropriate response. Sadness, being vigilant. So there's a lot of really interesting discussion and thinking around it. But but I think the point I really wanted to emphasize, partly because, you know, the viewers might not know some of the history of mental health treatment in this country is that mental health care, like many other systems in our country, in some way, is designed to exclude the experiences of people of color, or, you know, so and I think that's an important point to think about and think.
00:56:34:29 - 00:56:52:09
Onjalé Scott Price
It makes sense when you think when you actually do think about it, because a lot of our medical systems institutions did, did that do that exclude people of color, were, you know, built off of using people of color for, for, you know, medical advancement.
00:56:52:12 - 00:56:53:03
Dr. Alex Pieterse
Experiment.
00:56:53:03 - 00:57:10:06
Onjalé Scott Price
Experimentation is a much better word for that. So I hadn't considered mental health being in that, but that absolutely makes sense. Why would mental health be left out of all of the other things that that black people and people of color were used to experiment on or to? Yeah, that does make sense. But I never thought about it.
00:57:10:09 - 00:57:14:23
Rev. Will Mebane
So what do we do with, you know, how do we.
00:57:14:25 - 00:57:22:02
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah, because you talked about I'm sorry. Oh go ahead. You did talk about children and making sure you. What about somebody like me? Who who went through there?
00:57:22:07 - 00:57:26:02
Rev. Will Mebane
There's no hope for you. You you,
00:57:26:04 - 00:57:27:25
Onjalé Scott Price
Thanks for.
00:57:27:27 - 00:57:37:05
Dr. Alex Pieterse
Not not not even Donna's treatment could take care.
00:57:37:07 - 00:58:06:08
Onjalé Scott Price
So what about someone who's a young adult? Somebody who, unfortunately didn't have a lot of, And I'm not necessarily talking about me, but I'm talking about somebody who didn't necessarily have a lot of encouragement or didn't have someone show them imagery of black people or people of color in a positive light. And then you get to the stage where you're, you know, in college or you're an adult and, then you have an experience that makes you realize like, oh, maybe, maybe I should maybe I should actually come to terms with with who I am as a person of color.
00:58:06:15 - 00:58:20:21
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah. What do you do at that point when you when you realize that I've internalized all of this racism and I can't continue to live like this, like I've seen the light, you know, then what do you do? I guess I guess I'll let you in on that, too.
00:58:20:23 - 00:58:23:25
Rev. Will Mebane
You moved to Canada? No.
00:58:23:27 - 00:58:55:17
Dr. Donna Jackson
There's so many amazing authors and the access to information. You know, the internet can cut both ways, but, like, you really can find people that are talking about something at the level that you're at that you can engage with it. Right. And, you know, that people been there's just a lot of in organizations and groups now that really are available that just need you kind of have to find them.
00:58:55:17 - 00:59:22:22
Dr. Donna Jackson
You have to look, and but I do think some of it is just, realizing you're you're not alone. Maybe this is a much bigger problem than you. It's not an intra psychic problem. It's not even just an interpersonal problem. It is a big problem. All of us have to figure out how we can show up and do our part.
00:59:22:25 - 00:59:48:05
Dr. Donna Jackson
And that's all we can do. But we do want to show up and do it in a way where we have a level of self-awareness, right? And take care of ourselves. Like if if there is exposure to trauma, if you already have a history of trauma, then you need to be, you know, aware of what that means for you and how to, you know, take care of yourself as you move forward with figuring out what to do about internalized racism.
00:59:48:07 - 01:00:14:17
Dr. Donna Jackson
But you have to do it like you. You in terms of what causes what makes change. I heard it was a joke about psychologists, but people only change when they have to. They want to. Or we heard this, They have to. They want to know they're paying for it or. There's a third one, but no, there's all this stuff, really.
01:00:14:17 - 01:00:33:12
Dr. Donna Jackson
Psychology and a lot of things is about change. But when they're ready. Right. So when they're ready. So when they're ready. So the timing might not be right for some people. Right. And I really do that. There's a huge movement out now there on self-compassion. But I think compassion in general is going to be the only way we're going to undo the violence.
01:00:33:15 - 01:00:52:15
Dr. Donna Jackson
And now when people think about change, you know, if we're not, if people are coming at it from a deficit model or from a, scarcity model, change is always going to be a threat or a threat if we can have the conversation where we're going to change, but people cannot can stay in a place where there's not a threat.
01:00:52:15 - 01:01:14:25
Dr. Donna Jackson
We can talk about change without there being a threat. We can engage with each other with amount of compassion. Now I'm going to tell you when the Tyra Nicholas case, after watching that video, it took me weeks before I could come up with any compassion for those police officers. Right? But that had to be part of it. Like I had to get there to realize they didn't go.
01:01:14:25 - 01:01:44:00
Dr. Donna Jackson
I don't think they were sociopaths. They were not going into the police force intending to cause someone harm. So we have to expand how we think of what it means to be human together. That normal, that what we accepted as normal. That's the part that's the problem, that slavery was ever a way of establishing a country genocide to Native Americans.
01:01:44:02 - 01:02:09:01
Dr. Donna Jackson
That's how we established our country. So. But now here we are, and we still are accepting violence and aggression and racism and and so I don't, you know, race how we talk about race, how we compassionately show up for each other. I mean, I have to have some hope. You know, I don't delude myself, but.
01:02:09:04 - 01:02:34:01
Rev. Will Mebane
No, but I, I agree with that. Given my vocation, you know, I, I have to have hope in, in the human know, my belief is that we were all each of us created. None of us were created with hatred in our hearts. We weren't created with, being or being racists or misogynist or, sexist or any of those things.
01:02:34:03 - 01:02:56:14
Rev. Will Mebane
Those are all learned behaviors. We learned those things. Or maybe. We I guess that's all indoctrination from society. But let me ask you this. And so sort of my my closing question is, is this internalized racism? Is this a uniquely American problem?
01:02:56:16 - 01:02:58:28
Dr. Donna Jackson
01:02:59:01 - 01:03:22:08
Dr. Alex Pieterse
This I would say the simple answer is no. Okay. So and I'll tell you why I'm saying that with such confidence. So over the, over the my academic career, I've, I've started to shift my understanding of what I study. I've always studied race and racism, but I've come to appreciate more and more that what I'm studying is power.
01:03:22:10 - 01:03:49:01
Dr. Alex Pieterse
So I'm studying power dynamics and the place in which it's being played. My area of interest is race, but I think that power dynamics often are similar across different domains, you know, so the power that that plays out in, in race white, you know, assumed white superiority, assigned inferiority to people of color that gets played out in other domains.
01:03:49:01 - 01:04:12:05
Dr. Alex Pieterse
Gender and my kid playing sexual orientation. And so, for example, the literature that looks at internalized homophobia, a similar type of dynamic where you are internalizing what you've been taught about yourself. So, so in that sense, I think it's it's a more of a kind of human experience based on systems of oppression. So.
01:04:12:07 - 01:04:12:22
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah.
01:04:12:24 - 01:04:43:09
Dr. Alex Pieterse
We do it pretty well in this country. We excel in how we do it in this country. But I think it's it's not unique to to our experience. You know. So I, to this day, I think I'm a developed, mature adult to this day. I will catch myself after all of these years having a thought about myself, based on who I am racially.
01:04:43:11 - 01:04:50:02
Dr. Alex Pieterse
And sometimes those thoughts. Negative. Yeah. And then I have this thought of what the I should I.
01:04:50:02 - 01:04:50:23
Dr. Alex Pieterse
Work through.
01:04:50:23 - 01:05:04:17
Dr. Alex Pieterse
All of that? But it catches me. And then I'm thinking, well, I was taught this as a child. It was ingrained to me. But it can be unlearned. It can be unlearned.
01:05:04:20 - 01:05:19:10
Onjalé Scott Price
And I think we also need we need to make it known that there's always room for growth. Yes. Right. Is that you never you're never going to learn it all. I often think about the show we had in November of 2020.
01:05:19:12 - 01:05:19:23
Rev. Will Mebane
Yes.
01:05:19:23 - 01:05:40:14
Onjalé Scott Price
So we're thinking about show topics. The show was still relatively new and I brilliantly said, Let's November, let's talk about Native American history because it's November and we had a great discussion at the end of our discussion. Wonderful indigenous woman says, we know we always get asked to do stuff in November. We're here the rest of the year, too.
01:05:40:16 - 01:05:46:03
Onjalé Scott Price
And I thought, oh, I can't say words that I thought, but I thought, oh.
01:05:46:05 - 01:05:47:23
Rev. Will Mebane
Do we do the same thing?
01:05:47:25 - 01:06:12:02
Onjalé Scott Price
We are doing the things right now. And and we had to give ourselves some grace about that and say that that we are we are also learning and still working on that. And I think about that so often, a lot more often than I probably should admit. But I think about it often because it was such a good reminder that, you know, this is this is we live these lives, two of us as black people, and we do this work in this community.
01:06:12:02 - 01:06:19:17
Onjalé Scott Price
And you've definitely done it elsewhere. And yet there is still going to be some work to do, still some unlearning to do.
01:06:19:20 - 01:06:26:16
Rev. Will Mebane
Donna, I hope you're not planning on hanging up your shingle, so there's a lot of work available for you.
01:06:26:19 - 01:06:33:21
Onjalé Scott Price
There is actually a couple committees I think I got to talk to you about, you know, since you're here and you can't escape me.
01:06:33:24 - 01:06:57:04
Dr. Donna Jackson
Yeah. I mean, these are the conversations that, you know, honestly. And I do think sensitive, empathic people are the ones who are going to maybe you have to stay in the game. You can't have the trauma. You got to face it, deal with it, get the support. But if you get overwhelmed, we all lose. Like you got to keep coming back and saying, I'm going to go.
01:06:57:04 - 01:07:19:12
Dr. Donna Jackson
And you know, I didn't really I don't really like talking in front of people, but you got to show up and you got to have the conversation and texting is not going to do it. These little small soundbites that we are relying on a lot, we have to take time and we have to be with, I think, each other in person.
01:07:19:15 - 01:07:46:07
Dr. Donna Jackson
And hopefully, you know, I do think, you know, we're a young country. Our, form of government is young, and we have a history of trauma and oppression. And we, we we clearly have a long way to go, but we could figure it out. I mean, that's also a possibility, right? We could also figure it out. We're not doing it right now.
01:07:46:10 - 01:07:48:17
Dr. Donna Jackson
But if we stop doing it, will never figure it out.
01:07:48:19 - 01:08:13:20
Dr. Alex Pieterse
I think we have to figure it out. Yeah. We we have no choice. You know, the, racial trauma is unlike other traumas, you know, but at robs us of our humanity. I think that's what trauma does. It steals your sense of safety. You become hyper vigilant. You become distrustful and robbed us of our humanity. If that's happening to us, at the individual, at a community, it's happening to us in our country.
01:08:13:22 - 01:08:29:14
Dr. Alex Pieterse
And we have to we have no choice. We have to figure it out, you know, because our survival, I think, is is at stake. I don't mean to sound melodramatic or. No, no, I really believe that. We and we can, we can, we can.
01:08:29:16 - 01:08:45:25
Dr. Donna Jackson
And I do think when it has to happen and maybe it's a critical mass issue because now we're back to change. And change can't be perceived as a threat of I'm going to lose if I change. Right. So it maybe it takes enough people, right? You keep adding a few more people, a few more people, but not the same people.
01:08:45:27 - 01:08:55:20
Dr. Donna Jackson
Right. Who've done the work and keep doing the work with the few new people in there. Yeah. But yeah, we I think we hopefully we get enough. We can do it. Get Hanson.
01:08:55:26 - 01:09:00:21
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah, we got it. We got to keep the keep hope alive. Right? Right. Isn't that your job to help us keep hope alive?
01:09:00:24 - 01:09:11:15
Rev. Will Mebane
I'm doing my best to do help in some small way. Donna Jackson and clinical and psychologists and Alex Peterson.
01:09:11:18 - 01:09:13:29
Dr. Alex Pieterse
Peterson.
01:09:14:01 - 01:09:30:09
Rev. Will Mebane
Professor at Boston College and doing great research in, in this field. We thank you very much for helping us have the conversation around the subject of internalized racism. And, Angie, I love you.
01:09:30:11 - 01:09:30:21
Onjalé Scott Price
Too.
01:09:30:21 - 01:09:31:11
Rev. Will Mebane
It it's great to.
01:09:31:11 - 01:09:36:02
Onjalé Scott Price
Be with you. It's wonderful to see you and be with you. You're awesome.
01:09:36:05 - 01:09:36:27
Rev. Will Mebane
I know.
01:09:37:00 - 01:09:40:11
Onjalé Scott Price
I you all have been awesome as well.
01:09:40:11 - 01:09:41:00
Dr. Alex Pieterse
So thank you.
01:09:41:00 - 01:09:42:04
Onjalé Scott Price
For joining us and thank.
01:09:42:04 - 01:09:42:16
Dr. Alex Pieterse
You for having.
01:09:42:16 - 01:10:07:25
Onjalé Scott Price
Me. Thank you to our viewers for continuing to watch the conversation and hopefully continue these conversations and more. And your workplace at dinner tables and amongst your family and friends. So until next time, thanks for joining us and we'll see you again soon for.
01:10:07:28 - 01:10:21:17
Onjalé Scott Price
01:10:21:20 - 01:10:21:29
Onjalé Scott Price