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Welcome to Untethered Consciousness, hosted by Rod Bland, where we share stories and insights to help you answer the most fundamental of questions: Who am I?
Through the conversations that we have with our guests, we aim to help you reach your own conclusions about the nature of our existence.
Eben Alexander: There are
millions of other butterflies.
Looping and spiraling in
these vast formations,
and down below in this
verdant, fertile meadow,
there were thousands
of beings dancing lots
of joy and merriment.
I remember children playing,
dogs jumping,
incredible festivities,
and it was all being fueled
because up above were
these swooping orbs of
angelic choirs that were
emanating chants and anthems,
hymns that would just
thunder through my awareness.
Rod Bland: My guest today is
Dr.
Eben Alexander, A
neurosurgeon and author of
the brilliant book, Proof
of Heaven which details
a near death experience
that he had in 2008.
Eben, welcome and thank you so
much for coming on the show.
Eben Alexander: Well, Rod,
thanks so much for having me.
It's great to be with you.
Rod Bland: Alright, so I think
to get started, I'd like to
ask what your understanding
of human consciousness was
prior to your NDE and how
your medical training informed
that perspective and then
if you could take us through
the events that led up to
and including your NDE.
Eben Alexander: Okay.
I had a very kind of
conventional upbringing
in terms of my
scientific understanding.
My father was very
influential in my life.
He was a globally
renowned neurosurgeon.
He also was very spiritual.
He had a strong belief in
God and power of prayer,
but, like so many of us who
grew up in the 60s and 70s,
I always knew science was
the pathway to truth, and as
much as I might have wanted
to believe what I heard
in that Methodist church
growing up in North Carolina
Science was going to
guide my way to any
kind of understanding of
the nature of reality.
And the conventional training
I had at both Duke and then
when I worked at Harvard
medical school teaching
neurosurgery for 15 years,
was basically the notion of
materialism or physicalism.
And that's basically the
metaphysical position
that all of that exists
is the physical world.
And therefore, if we
can fully understand
everything that governs the
interactions of the particles
that make up that world.
Then we can understand
all of causality and
all of the nature of
our unfolding reality.
In fact, that materialist
science that I worshipped
before my coma, and I do
not use that term lightly
would scoff at you for
claiming to have free will.
Because that science
claimed that it was all
just chemical reactions,
electron fluxes, and the
substance of the brain.
It gave us an illusion
of free will, an illusion
of conscious awareness.
But that ultimately it was all
predetermined by the laws of
physics, chemistry, biology.
And that was the
hard core position.
But that's really where you
went if you believed that
conventional scientific...
Training,
which basically said our
existence is birth to
death and nothing more.
When our physical brain
and body die, that's the
end of conscious awareness.
My journey back in 2008
showed me that just
the opposite is true.
We are conscious in
spite of our brain.
And that's really where
I think all of this gets
a lot more exciting.
And the proof to
me was very solid.
In the form of the
severe case of Bacterial
Meningoencephalitis.
You couldn't have come up
with a better laboratory prep
to try and mimic human death
than what I went through.
This kind of severe meningitis
is a perfect model for human
death because it selectively
destroys the neocortex
and then the brainstem.
The pieces of the brain
that are most responsible,
according to modern
neuroscience, for our detailed
human conscious awareness.
And yet...
The medical details of
my case made it crystal
clear that brain was in no
shape to harbor any kind
of dream or hallucination.
And that's something that
I discuss in the book Proof
of Heaven, but that point
is greatly amplified by the
medical case report written
by three doctors not
involved in my care that
came out in the Journal of
Nervous and Mental Diseases
in September of 2018.
Dr.
Surbhi Khanna, Lauren
Moore, and Bruce Grayson
were fascinated by my
recovery, and that's why
they wrote this case report.
And in fact, when they were
challenged by the peer review
editors of that journal,
how do you explain this?
This is unprecedented in
the medical literature.
Have somebody this ill from,
a week in deep coma from
gram negative bacterial
meningoencephalitis with all
the lab parameters, Glasgow
Coma Scales, 6 or 7, and
anything below 9 is deep coma.
And all the lab values,
that's what haunted me,
was when I was reviewing
my own medical records.
and remembering everything
that I went through,
that brain was in no
position to construct
any such elaborate
hallucination or dream.
That's why the scientific
community takes my story
so incredibly seriously.
And that's why some people
who try to take me down with
ad hominem attacks cling
desperately to their hope that
this, their claim that this
was a medically induced coma.
They are denying the
facts of the case that are
absolutely a beautiful
gift to humanity.
And that is, no, this
extraordinary experience
happened but wasn't
caused by my brain at all.
The fact of the matter was
I was so close to death and
so far gone from this world
that I could experience
this extraordinary spiritual
journey that I had.
And that's really, to
me, the magic of it all.
And I can dive briefly into
what all that involved,
and then we can talk about
some of the details and
why it's important to the
scientific community and
all that kind of thing.
Rod Bland: Yeah, I think
it's especially for people
that haven't read your book
or anything, I think it'd
be good to understand, what
actually led to the meningitis
and then, what happened once
you were in the hospital and
things started to go south.
Eben Alexander: We
never ever determined
a cause why I had an E.
coli bacterial
meningoencephalitis.
That was never discovered.
It turns out important to
point out in my journey, I
had a very atypical feature
for near death experiences.
And that is a pretty
complete amnesia for the
life of Eben Alexander.
I had no memories of
the personal events
of my life, none of my
religious teachings,
none of my scientific
knowledge of cosmology,
physics, neuroscience,
quantum physics, etc.
None of that made it in.
I had a really an empty slate.
And in looking back on
it, I've come to realize
that every near death
experience is tailored for
the individual who has it.
That's ultimately the
reason these things occur.
But there are NDEs that
are so remarkable that
it's of great interest to
to this world at large.
In fact, I think all NDEs can
be very instructive to this
world at large because they
paint a beautiful picture.
That we're all in this
together and that the
binding force of love is
absolutely there connecting
us with each other and
with the universe at large.
So my beliefs before coma were
really strongly that of that
materialist scientist that
brain creates consciousness,
and then of course fearing
that when the brain and body
die awareness comes to an end.
The opposite is what I
experienced, and it all
started in what I call
the earthworm's eye view.
A very primitive course,
unresponsive realm, it was
like being in dirty jello.
Seemed to go on for
a very long time,
even though I'm sure I
didn't have a memory of
moment to moment, eternity
would seem like a reasonable
length of time that I
experienced all that, but
I was rescued, luckily,
by this slowly
spinning white light.
They came towards me and
it opened up like a rip
in the fabric of that ugly
earthworm eye view, as I
call that initial stage.
And it led me up through
this light portal into
this brilliant, ultra
real gateway valley.
And that's the part that's
so hard to explain to people.
It was much more
real than this world.
Much more detailed,
much more memorable,
much more meaningful.
Much more transformational.
This was an extraordinarily
rich environment in
which I found myself.
It makes this world
look very murky and
dreamlike by comparison.
Now that Gateway
Valley, it had a lot
of earth like features.
I was a speck of awareness
on a butterfly wing.
There are millions
of other butterflies.
Looping and spiraling in
these vast formations,
and down below in this
verdant, fertile meadow,
there were thousands
of beings dancing lots
of joy and merriment.
I remember children playing,
dogs jumping, incredible
festivities, and it was
all being fueled because
up above were these swooping
orbs of angelic choirs that
were emanating chants and
anthems, hymns that would just
thunder through my awareness.
And the best thing about the
whole scene I'm describing
to you is I wasn't alone.
There was a beautiful
woman sitting beside me
on this butterfly wing
and she looked at me
with a look of pure love.
Sparkling blue eyes,
high cheekbones, high
forehead, broad smile.
She was dressed in the same
kind of simple garb of all
the beings dancing down below,
but it was very colorful.
Really, colors
beyond the rainbow.
And when I say this world
is ultra real, do understand
this is the realm where
people would have life
reviews, where your life
would flash before your eyes
and you would relive the
events, not just remembering.
And also those events in
a life review are commonly
described as being from the
perspective of others around
us who were impacted by our
actions and even our thoughts.
In other words, your life
review is a beautiful
example of how we're
all in this together.
And if you hurt another,
you're hurting yourself.
If you hand out a lot
of pain and suffering...
In the life review, you have
to be on the receiving end of
that to see what it felt like.
And the life review is
there to serve as a course
correction, because another
major part of the scientific
evidence for the reality
of this broader concept
of mind we're talking
about is the scientific
evidence for reincarnation.
And the University of
Virginia, which is about
12 miles from where I'm
sitting right now, For
the last six decades,
they've studied more
than 2, 700 cases of
past life memories in
children indicative of
reincarnation, of which 1,
700 of the cases were solved.
That is, they found
the person who was
described by the child.
So this much bigger vision
of consciousness is one that
is here in the scientific
community and certainly
in my very neighborhood.
Now, I was discovering
this for my own on this
extraordinary journey.
And this beautiful message
that came to me from
this lovely spiritual
guide, the guardian angel
on the butterfly wing.
was you are deeply loved
and cherished forever.
You have nothing to fear.
You are richly cared for.
And I cannot tell you how
reassuring and validating
that was in that moment.
And it was around that
time that I witnessed
the soft summer breeze
that blew through.
And that breeze essentially
changed everything because
given my complete amnesia and
complete lack of knowledge
or of any kind of history of
connection with human thought
that summer breeze was my
first awareness of that
infinitely loving God force.
And I came back from this
incredible journey realizing
that it doesn't matter if
you want to call that deity
God or Allah, Brahman,
Vishnu, Jehovah, Yahweh,
whatever the words are.
The truth of the matter
is more than 90% of near
death experiencers from all
different faith traditions
and, many who were previously
agnostic or atheistic.
More than 90 percent of near
death experiencers through
thousands of years come back
believing in an infinitely
powerful, loving force at
the core of the universe.
So the reality of that
presence defies the fact that
we can't necessarily nail
it down with a proper label.
That's why it's so
important to have your
own practice of centering
prayer, going within,
meditation, what have you,
to develop your own
personal relationship
with that loving force.
Now for me on this journey,
it turns out that those
angelic choirs provided
yet another portal to a
higher and higher level.
And what I remember
is that all of four
dimensional space time,
the kind of lowest material
realm, collapsed down.
And then this entire spiritual
region, this gateway valley
as I called it, that same
realm where you can experience
birth, death, everything in
between, You have left time.
You are no longer just
remembering events
that occurred in a
lifetime, in Earth time.
You're reliving those events.
That's the power
of that realm.
But given my amnesia, I
was not to have an Eben
Alexander life review.
I had life reviews presented
to me in two very powerful
fashions in the next
stages of this journey.
Because with these angelic
choirs providing yet another
portal, All of that deep time,
as I call it or meta time.
That's the causal relationship
that occurs in that spiritual
realm, which is of complete
order of magnitude beyond what
we experience here, because
you can have all the events
of your life simultaneously
presented in that deep time.
Very important concept,
because this explains a lot
about How reincarnation and
all that can still honor
that our loved ones
will absolutely be
there when we pass over.
To help welcome us
into that realm.
And people are often concerned
when they hear all this
evidence for reincarnation.
Oh no, what if
they've reincarnated
before I get there?
No.
I can tell you from
my experience that
just doesn't happen.
That's the importance of
understanding this different
temporal layer in that in that
mystical, spiritual realm.
But what that led me up into
is what I call the core.
And I remember seeing all
of, even that spiritual
realm collapsing down until
what I saw was this
complex over sphere that
was there for teaching,
and to me that over sphere
was basically the universe
throughout all of eternity,
but it showed me the
much bigger aspects of
the universe that I was
trying to understand.
And in that core
realm, all dualities.
Come into oneness,
masculine, feminine, light,
dark, good, evil, etc.
All the different
dualities of this world
come together into oneness
in that beautiful realm.
And I also came to see
that the very source of
our conscious awareness.
is that deity, that
God force of pure love.
And it's important to
understand that even though
you may see apparent conflict
and, apparent darkness
and evil and all that kind
of on the way into this,
as you get closer and closer
to that spiritual core of
what I call the core you're
getting to a level where
it's pure oneness and love.
In other words the apparent
darkness and evil isn't
even part of the original
sourcing equation.
This is all part of that
one mind and we're sharing
the dreams of that one mind
in all of this process.
Now, it turns out that
in that core realm, I
was taught many things.
The two visions I did have
that showed me both life
reviews and reincarnation,
even though I couldn't
have an Eben Alexander life
Review because of my amnesia.
One I call the
flying fish version.
That's as it sounds.
The flying fish
down in the water.
That's our bodies in
the material realm.
Dumbed down, not knowing all
that our higher souls know
about the bigger picture.
But then when we
die, we come back up.
Reunite with higher soul, with
souls of departed loved ones.
Go through life reviews.
Plan next incarnations
for further growth.
learning and teaching,
and then dive back in.
The second vision was on a
separate passage through the
Core Realm, and that was what
I call the Indra's Net vision.
That was far grander,
showing me life reviews
and reincarnation and
a profound kind of
Indra's Net, this higher
dimensional network of web,
where basically everything we
did had influences that would
It would influence out into
the universe and you could see
how we were all interconnected
in this Indra's net vision.
And it was that binding force
of love that was so important.
Now it turns out, again, I
would tumble back down into
that earthworm eye view.
I cycled through these
realms several times.
I learned that by remembering
the musical notes, the melody,
that's how I could conjure
up all these light portals.
And always many lessons
I've spent 15 years since
my coma, unpacking those
lessons in meditation.
I use sacred acoustics,
which is a very powerful form
of differential frequency
brainwave entrainment.
And I use that form of
meditation basically daily.
And a lot of that effort
is not just to recover
memories from my NDE,
but to develop ongoing
relationships with the
guides and the force and
that incredible love force
at the core of that realm.
Every bit of that is what
I've been doing for the
15 years since with this
program of meditation.
It turns out, as I
said, I would cycle
through those levels.
Every time I entered into
the core realm, I was told,
you're not here to stay.
You'll be going back.
I'd even come to believe that
going back, just going back
to that earth worm eye view.
And for me, that was
no problem, because I'd
learned that by remembering
the musical notes and the
melody in my mind, I could
conjure up that light portal.
And that would always take
me up to the next level.
But there came a point
where, as they promised me,
you're not here to stay,
I could no longer conjure
up the light portal up
into that gateway valley.
To say I was sad at that point
would be an understatement.
But I also knew that I could
trust in the universe, that
I would be taken care of.
And it was at that point that
I saw thousands of beings
going off around me, off into
the distance, many with heads
bowed like that holding arms
up, some holding candles.
And this murmuring energy
was coming back from them.
The surprising thing was I
now tumbled back down to this
murky kind of earthworm's eye
view, that primitive level
where everything started.
And previously
the incredible...
Joy and bliss to see I had
experienced in the spiritual
realms, in the gateway valley
and the core realm was not
really present in that lowest
level in the earthworm's
eye view, but now it was.
Because of this murmuring
energy of these people around
me thousands of them, and when
I labeled all that, when I
came back to this world and
was writing it all up, I said
that those were prayers, and
that was the power of prayer
leading me back to this world.
And the final stage of my
near death experience were the
six faces I saw at the
very end of it all.
They were very important.
Five of them were physically
present in the ICU room the
last 24 hours I was in coma.
Now, there were many other
family and friends who had
been there earlier in the
week who I had no memory of.
And what this helped me to
realize is the vast majority
of my coma journey had to
happen between days one
and four or one in five
of the seven day coma.
And I explained that timing
in the book Proof of Heaven
and then elaborate more
on that in the book Living
in a Mindful Universe.
But it was really the last
of those faces that I would
say is the most important.
That was the one that
actually compelled me to
come back to this world.
It was of a ten year old boy.
Now, I didn't recognize
him at this time, but
it was my son, Bond.
Great name.
It turns out that that
he was 10 years old.
They'd given him the
sugar coated version of
the story, Dad's sick.
Then he saw Dad on a
ventilator, unresponsive,
worried about that.
And they hadn't told
him the worst news, but
it was day 7 of coma.
And the doctors held a family
conference where they said
I'd gone from a 10 percent
chance of survival down to 2%.
But with no chance
of recovery.
And they were recommending
stopping the antibiotics and
taking me off the ventilator.
Just letting nature
take its course.
But turns out Bond
overheard all that and
now realized it was much
worse than he'd been told.
So he came running down
the hallway and I was lying
there on my ventilator.
Eyes taped shut, he
pulled open my eyelids.
One eye looking over
there, one eye over there,
neither pupil working.
Any of your audience in
medicine will know that's
a horrible picture.
And I promise you, I did
not hear him with my ears, I
didn't see him with my eyes.
But somehow, his pleading
with me, Daddy, you're
going to be okay, Daddy,
you're going to be okay.
Even though I didn't
understand the words, but it
was that emotional engagement
of our connection, that
pleading, that somehow I had
to be back there for him.
Whatever that meant.
And it's the toughest
thing I've ever done
in my entire existence.
Crawling out of there.
I often use the analogy,
it was like crawling out
of a gravel pit where every
time you reach up, everything
collapses in around you.
I had to do it.
I had to get back for him.
In some way, I was able to
come back to this world and,
the next thing I knew, I'm
fighting the ventilator and
they pulled the tube out.
I said, thank you.
Now, my brain was still
very addled by this
serious infection.
And even though I was
coming around, it was
still deeply involved.
And in fact, over the next 36
hours, after they took out the
breathing tube, I was in and
out of a paranoid, delusional,
psychotic nightmare
that I described briefly in
the book, Proof of Heaven.
But it was wild.
And the interesting thing
about it was that those
memories as much as they
seemed a little more real
than a normal nightmare, I
knew they were delusional
while it was happening.
And also those memories
faded within about two weeks.
Whereas the deep
coma memories,
the spiritual journey
that I describe in the
book, that incredible
richness, that, those
memories are as sharp now
as if the whole thing
happened yesterday.
Gigantic difference, and
there have been papers,
scientific papers, written
about the resilience and
stability of NDE memories
that corroborates this.
These are not,
hallucinations or dreams.
These are profound
memories that rival real,
lived events in terms of
their kind of tenacity
and their staying power.
People would often come up
to me after I gave a talk
and share something with me
and they'd say, I never told
anybody this before, but,
and then they'd share an
after death communication or a
deathbed vision, a near death
experience, what have you.
Might have happened
50 years ago.
But they remember it
perfectly because these
things transform your lives.
They're incredibly rich
dives into the nature of
reality that's much grander
than what we normally assume
to be our human condition.
And they're much more
indicators of kind of
the spiritual nature
of the universe and our
spiritual nature as beings.
And by spiritual, I simply
mean interconnected through
that mental layer and also
with a shared meaning and
purpose, because that's
ultimately what emerges
from near death experiences
and from a broad review
of this literature.
At any rate, over two months,
all my memories returned.
That was shocking.
In fact, in our book, Living
in a Mindful Universe,
Karen and I talk about
how memories are not
even stored in the brain.
It's something that
neurosurgeons have
suspected for a long
time that was false.
And yet it's such a nail in
the coffin of materialist
neuroscience that it's
not often discussed.
And yet, if you go back to
Wilder Penfield, the renowned
Canadian neurosurgeon who
wrote a book in 1975, Mystery
of the Mind, he makes it
very clear that consciousness
is not something that
you can simply explain as
a result of brain work.
And in fact, through his
career, he went through,
as a neuroscientist, as a
neurosurgeon, working on awake
patients with electrodes.
I did a lot of those
operations myself.
But Penfield...
Basically concluded that
memories were not to be stored
anywhere in the neocortex.
Now, of course, there
was enough materialism
still around in 75, that
he thought you got to put
it somewhere, so I guess
it's in the brainstem.
But when you hear all these
reincarnation stories in the
modern literature, you realize
those memories are not being
stored in any brain at all.
80 percent of the
reincarnation cases
are not related.
So there's no way to
even postulate, a DNA
connection or heredity
when 80 percent of them are
not from the same family.
But in other words,
we need a much bigger model
to explain consciousness and
memory than the simplistic
and outmoded model that
the physical brain somehow
is storing those memories.
And so I've spent the 15 years
since my coma working with
scientists around the world.
And this includes if people
wanna go check out the
groups that I work with.
Go to scientific and
medical.net or go to
galileo commission.org.
Those are both scientific
groups that I've worked
with for a while.
And they are coming up with
models of reality that go far
beyond the simplistic and.
Basically, paltry fiction
of materialism that pretends
that only the physical
world exists and that we
don't even have free will.
There's obviously much more
that we can learn about the
human condition from all
this, but it really implies
that we're all eternal
souls and we're all working
together on this kind of
evolution of consciousness.
That's basically where
my NDE has taken me
and I'd like to...
Address any questions or
comments and get deeper
into it all with you.
Rod Bland: So when you came
back, or I guess when you
re regained consciousness
was it like when you were
on the other side, so
you didn't know who you
were as Eben Alexander,
but you had this memory
of where you'd just been?
Eben Alexander: All I
remembered when I came
back to this world, when I
was waking up on that ICU
bed was where I had been.
That was the only experience
of my, in my memory, period.
That was it.
But I very quickly was
regaining language, literally
within hours of waking up and
starting to recognize those
loved ones at the bedside.
Initially I was very confused
about them and very confused
about a lot of things.
But I quickly, within hours, a
day or two, started recovering
plenty of memories of those
relationships to start putting
it all back in context.
But, this new Eben Alexander
was one who had been through
something quite astonishing
and completely unexpected
based on my prior worldview.
I was also very busy trying
to tell my doctors about
this, what had happened to
me, and they would just pat
me on the back and say your
brain was soaking in pus.
We don't have any idea how
you're even coming back to us.
You can forget about it
because a dying brain
plays all kinds of tricks.
Okay, I believe my doctors,
I should forget about it,
but I wanted to write it
all down because it was such
a fascinating experience.
And in fact, by the time I
got out of the hospital a
few weeks later, it was two
days before Thanksgiving,
Now, I remember my older son,
Evan IV, who was majoring in
neuroscience in college at the
time, and he had been there
during part of my coma, so
he knew just how ill I was.
In fact, he thought they
lost me but he had gone back
to school after I started
waking up took some exams,
and then he came home,
and he drove overnight
to surprise me.
He'd heard that I was
staying up all night
because I couldn't sleep
because I was so energized
by the spiritual experience.
And he drove overnight.
He came home the day
before Thanksgiving,
gave me a big hug.
And he told me much later
that it was like when he gave
me that hug, like there was
a light shining within me
that I was far more present
than I'd ever been before.
And I remember telling
him, it was all way
too real to be real.
That's the way I,
that ultra reality.
That's how I put it into
words because I always
believe in my doctors.
Trick of the dying brain,
but I had not yet begun to
review my medical records.
That was weeks and months
into the future, and as I did
that, I started realizing no
this brain was not
there creating some wild
hallucination or dream
because this brain was
far too damaged.
It could not have done
that and that of course,
as I said, is why the
scientific community takes
my story so seriously,
but the the reality that
was coming to me is all the
memories started coming back.
And in fact, the memories
of my distant past life or
distant early life in this
body were more complete than
they had been before the coma.
I figured that out with
conversations with family
and friends about certain
things that occurred
way back in early life.
And realized that those
details were clearer in
my memory after the coma
than they had been before.
So it was a beautiful
example of how our brain
serves as an interface.
It's a filter to that
primordial consciousness.
And it accesses memories
and it accesses this kind of
lifeline of our existence.
But ultimately the brain
is not the creator of
that conscious awareness.
The universe is
conscious, essentially.
That's what this is teaching
us in a very deep fashion.
The very same consciousness
that came up with the Big Bang
and so many other, aspects
of our emerging reality.
That is the consciousness we
share, that God force is one.
At the deepest levels of our
journeys, we find that is
the source of our conscious
awareness and that we
all have the same source.
So it's all shared.
That's why this notion of
the life of you as being
the golden rule written
into the fabric of the
universe is so important.
If you hurt others, you're
hurting yourself, and
the more the deep lesson
of NDE's of this oneness
and this binding force of
love can come to fruition,
the more harmonious and
prosperous this world
will be for all of our
fellow sentient beings.
Rod Bland: Now, I think
I remember the lady on
the butterfly on the
butterfly wing, there's a
special certificates there.
Could you tell us
more about that?
Eben Alexander: I'll
tell you a little bit.
I don't want to have to
give out a spoiler alert for
people who haven't read the
Rod Bland: that's
a good point.
Eben Alexander: it's a...
It's a fantastic,
that's one of the reasons
people absolutely love that
book, plus it, the book Proof
of Heaven, and it's also a
reason that so many people
contacted me because it, it
reawakened in them memories
of their own journeys.
Of things that had happened to
them that they had suppressed,
between lives, what have you.
But yes, that is
an important point.
It has a lot to do with
kind of the overall
challenge of my life.
And that has to do with the
fact that I was adopted.
I tell a lot of that story
in the book, Proof of Heaven.
I was put up for adoption
by my 16 year old unwed
mother at age 11 days.
I was basically taken by
social services because
of failure to thrive.
I went on a hunger
strike, which babies that
are not wanted by their
mothers often will do.
And so social services had
taken me on and my birth
mother could no longer claim
me after that Christmas
break when they had taken me.
But she wasn't willing to
sign the papers to give me up.
So I basically got stuck in
purgatory in this baby dorm
in Greensboro, North Carolina
for four months until my
birth mother was willing to
sign the papers to let me go.
And then I couldn't
have been luckier.
I couldn't have been adopted
into a better family.
a loving family that honored
all my hopes and dreams.
I had three sisters
in that family.
The older one was adopted.
The younger two were
the biological children
of my adopted parents.
But the important thing
is I went through most
of my life not knowing
about anything of the
details of that connection.
And there was a deep kind
of subconscious worry.
And I was not conscious of
this, but it was operative
at a subconscious level.
that maybe I wasn't
even worthy of love.
And I think that affected
a lot of my relationships
with people and whether or
not I could trust the world.
And in
so many ways, this whole
journey of working towards
my NDE and then beyond was
part of the sole journey of
answering that question of
whether or not I was worthy
of love in this universe.
And what I will tell you
in terms of answering
your question is that I
finally met my birth family
a year before my coma.
That also that story's all
told in proof of Heaven.
And that was a
beautiful reunion.
I felt a huge part of my
past had now been locked
into place and I now
understood so much more.
It started me on a pathway
of understanding the answer
to that question, whether
or not I was loved, but I
needed the n D E to fully
answer that question, and
that's why I dove in deep
and in fact that beautiful
guardian angel had to be
somewhat important in my life.
And it turns out that she was,
and that had to do with
that birth family and a
sister that I never knew.
I won't go into any
more detail than that.
But suffice it to say,
it was a mind bender that
shocked me to my knees when
I did figure it all out.
And it also proved to me
the reality of my journey
in a very strong fashion.
I already knew all of this
seemed way too real to
be real, but then to fit
it all into my life in a
meaningful and powerful
way was extraordinary.
And that was the gift.
Rod Bland: People often
use that description is
it's more real than real.
And I've had a single
out of body experience.
And when I try to explain
to people and they go, okay
well, you sure you weren't
dreaming and said well,
I, you know, when you're
dreaming, but you really know
when you're dreaming after
you've had a different kind
of experience like an NDE
or an OBE because there's
this essence of reality to
it that just doesn't exist
in our present reality and
it's really hard to explain.
It's just one of those
things you have to experience
and then you get it, but
otherwise it's really just a
concept that's quite foreign.
Eben Alexander: I think you're
exactly right, and that's
why a lot of people were
attracted to Proof of Heaven.
There were thousands of people
who wrote to me after that
book came out sharing, how
that had awakened in them a
sense of a similar journey
and a bigger existence.
As you say it's hard to
put your finger on it.
It's certainly way beyond
the linguistic description
of these journeys.
But it has more to do with
kind of their overwhelming
power of of reliving these
events and getting this
much richer, deeper sense of
connection with the universe.
It's a very beautiful lesson
in actually existing to go
through these kinds of things.
And then come back to this
world and have that as a
touch point as a, a mile
post that you contacted.
Bathing in that ocean of
consciousness is something
that always can serve me well
in terms of these journeys.
And I know when I present
this to other NDEers, for
example that's especially
when that heart resonance
of understanding comes
out and you realize
that the communication
goes far beyond just our
language and our words.
There's something much
deeper about our connections,
especially in sharing these
kind of profound spiritual
journeys that leads us
into some common ground.
Rod Bland: Yeah, there's our
senses are quite limited,
like our five senses,
they're not limited but...
There's so much more to your
experience of consciousness
than that was what I remember.
It was like there was this
sort of ongoing essence
of joyful cheerfulness.
So that's hard to explain,
but it was like everything was
really vibrant and everyone
who was there was really
happy and great to see you.
And
Eben Alexander: This is
something that my partner
Karen Newell has pointed
out to me very well.
She's become a student of
Christopher Kerr, K E R R.
He's a hospice doctor
in Buffalo, New York.
So all he writes about is
hospice, terminal care,
patients who are dying.
But it turns out that
you find the exact same
themes are coming to them.
You have reuniting with
souls of departed loved ones.
You have them resolving
some of the big
issues in their life.
If there were things that they
had done in their life where
they had a lot of guilt or
shame and they had hurt others
they end up able to make
amends and to do that
in real time with the
spiritual ingredients
of these encounters.
So the dying experience
from the hospice world is
identical to what happens in
near death experiences and
shared death experiences.
Shared death are just like
near death but they happen
to perfectly healthy people.
Often people who might
be loved ones, say a
thousand miles away from
a mother who is dying,
but when the mother dies
and leaves, and her soul
leaves her body, it goes
through and grabs the
soul of the loved one,
who might be a thousand miles
away, takes that along even
to the point of witnessing
a full blown life review
with the mother's soul,
but then the bystander soul
comes back to this world.
And those shared death
experiences have many
of the same ingredients
of near death.
And yet, as I said,
they usually happen in people
who are perfectly healthy.
So they completely
defy those materialist
pseudo explanations of,
decreased oxygen tension or
increased carbon dioxide if
somebody's body is dying.
But no, you don't need
those ingredients for these
incredible spiritual journeys.
And anybody who wants to
learn more about shared
death experiences should read
Raymond Moody's book,
Glimpses of Eternity.
I think it came out in
2011, but that's all about
shared death, completely.
And then also follow the
work of William Peters.
If you Google Shared
Crossing Project,
he's in Santa Barbara.
California,
and which enables people to
learn techniques that might
enhance their ability to share
the dying experience with a
loved one who is terminal.
And he's, William Peters
was just a guest with us
and he's claiming some very
good success with this.
He's recently written a book.
It's called At Heaven's Door.
I highly recommend it.
And that will help people
get up to speed with shared
death experiences, which
are an extraordinary kind
of extension of near death
into explaining our spiritual
nature the spiritual nature
of the universe at large.
Highly recommend people get
into learning more about
shared death experiences.
Rod Bland: That's
very interesting.
That sounds a bit like the,
I think it's the Gateway
Experience Program at the
Monroe Institute, where they
are learning how to escort,
other people who have, who
are passing or have passed
to the sort of next part
Eben Alexander: Exactly.
In fact, that was my
original introduction to
binaural beat brainwave
entrainment was working
at the Monroe Institute.
So I'm very
familiar with that.
Took that lifelines
course where we were
actually there to
help souls who were stuck,
who had died and yet
weren't certain they died
and what have you, but
the many different ways
that souls can get stuck.
And we were there
helping them.
That's in fact the environment
where I met Karen Newell.
Because she also was there
training learning how to teach
people to use these sounds
to get into deep
hypnotic or deep states
of conscious awareness.
And in fact, I was the one
who, once I listened to
what she and her business
partner, Kevin Cossey,
he was a sound engineer.
They were putting together
their own binaural beats.
They'd not shared
them with anyone else.
Once I heard those back
in early 2012, I said, you
guys really need to get
these out to the world.
Now I'm one of their biggest
customers and biggest fans.
I listen to Sacred Acoustics
an hour to a day, and
I've been doing that for
more than 11 years now.
But people can go
to sacredacoustics.
com to learn a lot more.
I highly recommend it
as a meditative tool and
just cuts the chase from a
neuroscientific perspective.
The reason I think sacred
acoustics is so powerful
is because it uses binaural
beat brainwave entrainment
to engage a circuit way down
the lower brainstem in this
ancient circuit by oscillating
left and right back and
forth quickly with these
binaural beat sound waves.
I believe that is what allows
our conscious awareness to be
set free from the illusion of
here, now, and sense of self.
So I highly recommend it.
People can learn a lot
more at sacredacoustics.
com.
To learn about these
meditative tools and
the different ways
that you can use them.
Her site is very good
for instructing people
about the details of
these various programs
and how they've been used.
And it's important
to note that Dr.
Anna Usim, Y U S I M, wrote a
peer reviewed scientific study
of sacred acoustics binaural
beat brainwave entrainment
that was published in the
Journal of Nervous and
Mental Diseases in, I think
it was in February of 2020
and basically they found
that in their busy Manhattan
psychiatric practice,
that simply listening to
binaural beats, sacred
acoustics gave a 26 percent
reduction in anxiety
symptoms over two weeks.
And that's compared to only a
7 percent reduction in anxiety
symptoms in people who had
standard of psychotalk therapy
but did not have the tones.
So by listening to
Sacred Acoustics tones,
you had a dramatic
improvement in alleviation
of anxiety symptoms.
This is very early
in the pandemic.
So Karen, with all her
generosity, It was important
to get these tones out
to the world to relieve
anxiety, especially as the
economic collapse added
on top of the pandemic.
And so she made the whole
mind bundle, which was
the source material for
that scientific paper.
showing such a
reduction in anxiety.
She made that whole mind
bundle available for a
discounted price of 19.
But she also included a
free option because she
knew there'd be a lot
of people because of the
pandemic who didn't have
the financial wherewithal,
but would need something
like this powerful tool.
And I believe that free
option is still available.
Due to Karen and Sacred
Acoustics generosity, people
can download and use that
very same set of acoustic
files that were so effective
in alleviating anxiety
in that scientific study.
Rod Bland: So there
was something that you
mentioned was EndersNet.
It sounded like
you said EndersNet.
Did I get that right?
Eben Alexander: Indra's
Rod Bland: Oh, EndresNet.
Okay.
Eben Alexander: It's
from some ancient Eastern
teachings the notion of
this interconnected web.
And that was just the vision
that came to me after coming
out of coma and trying to
describe and go through
the various elements of my
journey that extraordinary
vision of the net
that I had in the core realm
showed my interconnection
with all that was happening
and showed that my actions
and thoughts and learning and
teaching were also associated
with the transformation
of consciousness itself.
Which I believe is the reason
the whole universe exists,
is for this one mind to grow.
It's we're sharing the dream
of the one mind in this
process of learning and
teaching, and unpacking what
is possible for sentient
beings to accomplish in
recognizing their connection
with the universe at large.
And that's really what I see
a lot of this as being this
kind of expanded sense of
mission, of understanding that
we're all in this together,
this process of discovery.
And it's really all
about a deeper version
of know thyself.
That inscription over the
temple of Apollo at Delphi
in Greece, Know thyself.
And I think that's
ultimately what we're all
being challenged with.
And the interesting thing is
you find that your mind is
not just related to this three
and a half pound gelatinous
mass sitting in a warm,
dark bath between your ears,
but your mind is sharing
the mind of the universe.
And this becomes obvious,
especially in our book,
Living in a Mindful Universe,
we point out All the
different consilience lines
of evidence that lead to this
notion of primacy of mind.
From the hard problem of
consciousness in neuroscience,
to the binding problem,
the apparent unity of
consciousness, which is
very difficult to explain
in the individual if you're
postulating that it's
all different neuronal
populations contributing
in network fashion to
this bigger version.
Why is consciousness
so unified?
It's because it's
unified from the get go.
We're sharing that one mind.
The brain is a filter
that allows it in.
And then you have in this
argument of consilience all
the evidence for non local
consciousness, like telepathy.
Read Guy Lyon Playfair's
book on twin telepathy.
You realize 35 percent
of identical twins
have very powerful
telepathic experiences.
Of course, they're easy to
demonstrate in twins, but
they also occur in many
other connections we have
with people where telepathy
is real, remote viewing
is real, distance healing,
and then you run into all
this kind of category of
non local consciousness
in the form of near death.
Shared death experiences,
deathbed dreams and visions
like in the hospice work,
and then of course after
death communications would
probably happen in more
than 50 percent of our
modern western population.
In fact, it's the population
at large that's going to
be driving this revolution.
The scientific community
is catching up, slowly
but surely, but ultimately
it's people having these
experiences once they realize
they don't violate science
and scientific principles.
But, in fact, are supported
by the modern science
of quantum informed
scientific investigation
of consciousness.
And really that's where
this whole thing explodes.
And, for example, if anyone
still thinks that this
is, talk of the afterlife
and reincarnation is not
scientific, I would send
you to BigelowInstitute.
org.
Because that's where you'll
find 28 essays that were
written in the year 2021.
The challenge was from
Robert Bigelow, an aerospace
engineer in Las Vegas, who
said he'd lost his wife, his
son had committed suicide.
He wanted to know more
about, are they really
still here in some form?
And so he put a question out
to the scientific community.
What's the best scientific
evidence for continuation
of consciousness after
permanent bodily death?
And you had to demonstrate
at least five years research
experience in the afterlife
question to submit an essay.
But in that context,
they got 204 essays.
They were going to give
out 3 monetary prizes,
instead they gave out 28.
And you can read all 28
of those winning essays
at BigelowInstitute.
org And from my perspective,
you read even that
first place essay by Jeffrey
Mishlove and you realize...
We're far beyond questioning
whether or not these
these things are real.
We're now into, okay, how do
we work this into our larger
worldview of understanding?
But, the old heyday of
materialist pseudo
skeptics, saying this is
nonsense, science disagrees
with this, are gone.
Because quantum physics
actually demands...
This kind of free
will openness of
sentience that we share
and doesn't allow for that
complete determinism that
I thought before my coma
based on my materialist
scientific studies.
And once people start
reading these essays,
and if you're looking
especially for the deep and
profound scientific essays
in that BigelowInstitute.
org group, I
would steer you to
Bernardo Kastrup, and
I would steer you to
Pim van Lommel, who
won second place,
and I would steer
you to julie Beichel,
Now, many of the other
essays are excellent,
but these three in particular
are the strongest kind
of scientific footing,
I think, for defining
this afterlife question.
Rod Bland: I was going to
ask the question, at what
point do you think that
the NDE experience or other
spiritually transforming
experience are going to
inform the current view of
reality that science has, but
it almost sounds like that's
really already been answered.
Perhaps it's more that
mainstream disseminators of
information like media, etc.
really haven't caught up yet.
I think that's probably more
what the issue is.
Eben Alexander: It turns
out, there's this incredible
and unbelievable prejudice
among science writers.
They are hardcore
materialists, even though
many in the scientific
community are leaving
that behind because they
realize with quantum physics
and especially with the
2022 Nobel Prize in physics
going for entanglement, which
is right there at the heart of
the mystery of quantum physics
that defies the normal
notions of space time as
being the theater in which
this all happens from a
scientific perspective.
But the astonishing thing
is how they do not seem
capable of understanding
this revolution.
The revolution is gigantic.
Read the Bigelow Institute
essays and you'll get it.
This is all in process.
It's happening.
And yet, for example,
there was a paper of a
month or two ago that was
talking about this burst
of electrical activity that
happens in a brain, right
around the time of death.
And everybody made this giant
deal of these, I think it
was two cases reported and
this was on top of an earlier
study where in mice that were
being euthanized they saw this
burst of electrical activity.
Bruce Grayson and Pim
Van Lommel put out a
public response to that
misinterpretation by
science journalists.
That continue to trumpet
materialism as an explanation
for NDEs, because in fact,
When you review, for example,
Pim Van Lommel's own study
of hundreds of patients
who had cardiac arrest and
had near death experiences,
you'll find the EEG goes
flatline in 15 to 20 seconds.
Period.
End of story.
So nobody expects any
kind of EEG activity to be
associated with NDEs based
on the NDE literature itself.
And Pim Van Lommel and Bruce
Grayson made that absolutely
crystal clear to some science
writers who still don't get it
and continue to pretend that
brain activity causes this.
The exact point from the
deep literature on NDE's is
that you don't have brain
activity in these people.
You have flat EEGs in the
cases where it's measured.
So walk away from that silly
nonsense and let's get rid
of this stupid materialist
assumption that the brain
is creating consciousness.
Another place where this
is very relevant is a
whole series of scientific
papers that have come
out in the last 11 years.
Looking at people
under the influence of
psychedelic substances like
psilocybin, magic mushrooms,
DMT, dimethyltryptamine,
active principle in ayahuasca,
LSD, one of the most potent
serotonin 2A psychedelic
substances known.
And in all the scientific
papers using functional
MRI, magnetoencephalography,
ways of really looking at
detailed neuronal activity
in the brain, what you find
is people under the influence
of things like psilocybin.
The default mode network,
which is the network that's
normally thought to be the
kind of ego network of what
happens when you're sitting
there doing nothing but
just existing and aware
of your existence, that
network completely dissolves
under psilocybin and same
thing with LSD and DMT.
And so what we find is the
brain activity is not going
to explain those incredible,
phenomenal experiences under
those psychedelic substances.
So why would we demand that
the brain somehow explain
these other activities that
occur when people die and
when their soul is in the
process of leaving their body?
The bottom line is these are
not created by the brain.
You've got to give up on
materialism or physicalism
because it's inadequate.
To answer these questions
we need bigger models
like idealism, which is
where we go in our book,
Living in a Mindful
Universe, the primacy of the
mental over the physical.
And in fact, if you really
listen to all the words we're
saying in this talk about
NDE's and that loving God
force and how all of this
is really around the one
mind and how we're connected
through that mental layer.
You'll realize that it's
not just simple idealism,
but we're really pushing
for what might be called in
a philosophical discussion,
evolutionary panentheism.
That's a better
philosophical description
of where we're headed.
But ultimately it's
all just saying that
the physical universe
is emergent from the
realm of the mental.
And that we have much
more power over that
than we might think.
And for me as a healer, as
a doctor, where that then
leads is into placebo effect,
which is an acknowledgement
of our six or seven
decades that our thoughts,
beliefs, and attitudes
can influence our healing.
And then you get into
spontaneous remission.
And then finally you get into
the category of miraculous
healing in the setting
of near death experiences
that begin to show us this
power of understanding our
spiritual nature and
its ability to influence
our emerging reality
has tremendous power to
bring us into wholeness.
That is healing.
So any kind of physical,
mental, emotional healing,
ultimately, will be spiritual
healing, fundamentally.
And that spiritual doesn't
need any kind of religious
ingredient at all.
Even though religions can
help people get into deep
spiritual states, but
sometimes religious ideologies
work against spirituality.
Because ultimately,
spirituality is teaching us
we're all in this together.
We're bound through
the forces of love.
The best way to free ourselves
and others is with kindness,
mercy, acceptance, love,
when necessary, forgiveness.
But get rid of this sick
and toxic false sense of
separation that comes out of
materialism and let's move on
with the scientific revolution
that proves the oneness of our
consciousness and how we're
all truly in this together.
Rod Bland: I love
your passion, Dr.
Alexander, and you've given
us a whole bunch of other
like further reading materials
as well, which I'll try to
capture all these and put
them in the description.
So how about you just tell
us everything you've got
going on as I know you've
mentioned a few of your books
and just tell us everything
you've got going if people
want to find out more about
your work and what you do
and get involved that way.
Eben Alexander: People
can certainly go to
Eben, E B E N, alexander.
com to learn more
and I would especially
recommend on there, there's
a page that has a lot of
the media, a lot of the
interviews and podcasts.
There's a page with
FAQ that addresses some
of the main questions,
especially that you
encounter out in the
lay press about my case.
And then also I
would recommend the
recommended reading list.
More than a
hundred references.
Many of them have hot
links to the scientific
papers involved.
And they're categorized.
And I try to update that on
something of a frequent basis.
But I think evanalexander.
com is an excellent
starting point.
The books, Proof of Heaven,
Map of Heaven.
And especially important
is Living in a
Mindful Universe.
That's the real
proof of heaven.
That's the one that unites
science and spirituality.
That was co written with
my partner, Karen Newell,
who's also the co founder
of Sacred Acoustics.
And we talk in there not
only about the scientific
revolution, but a lot of
personal recommendations about
meditation and about doing
this journey yourself, so a
lot of personal guidance is in
Living in a Mindful Universe.
Also highly recommended,
sacredacoustics.
com.
That's Karen's website.
She has on their page, I want
to dot dot, and all the many
things you might want to do
with meditation are there.
And she has specific pathways
of the different sacred
acoustics audio files that
might be useful, but you
don't have to pay a penny.
You can just either download
that free 20 minute OM file,
or you could download
that whole mind bundle.
Like I said earlier, it's
a very discounted price now
at 19, but she still has for
those who are financially
challenged as the pandemic
leaves us behind, she still
has that free option available
for that whole mind bundle.
So people can jump
in full speed ahead.
The other website
I'd recommend is
inner sanctum center.
com.
That's I N E R.
SanctumCenter.
com
and that has a number of
different possibilities that
Karen and I have come up with
that's really through Karen's
wisdom to have that website
there and especially I would
recommend the interviews
we did during the pandemic
about a year and a half's
worth of interviews every
two weeks that we did
with thought leaders
around the world
in consciousness studies, many
of the scientific endorsers
of our book we interviewed,
other experiencers we
interviewed, and there's
also a monthly session, Zoom
session that we hold with
a lot of people who like to
follow us that's available
through innersanctumcenter.
com.
We have a tremendous time
on that monthly broadcast.
I love it with people who
are deeply into this line
of work and they join
us every month for that.
And there's also a mental
health practitioner
course available at
intersanctumcenter.
com.
That's a course that Karen
and I taught with Dr.
Anna Usom.
A very valuable practical
course on bringing this into
a mental health practice.
So there are all these
different options.
And then of course the
other ones that I mentioned
the scientificandmedical.
net and
the galileocommission.
org, especially important
scientific resources.
Rod Bland: Okay, terrific.
I'm going to have a lot of
additional reading to do over
the next little while I think.
Is there any final message
that you'd like to leave
people with before we wrap
up our conversation today?
Eben Alexander: I think
the most important thing to
say is no soul left behind.
This revolution will impact
each and every one of us.
Each and every one of us
has a certain responsibility
to ourselves and others to
enlighten ourselves about
this, to come into deeper
knowing of why we're here
and what this is all about.
And it ultimately
is very comforting.
When you face up to
things like death or
loss of a loved one
to realize that
we're eternal souls,
which is essentially what
this deeper scientific
message is trying to tell us
I think can be very comforting
very reassuring and very
affirming of what people
seem to sense at a deeper
level about our connection.
No soul left behind.
And it's all about that
binding force of love.
Rod Bland: Eben, your
enthusiasm is contagious.
I really applaud that.
I know you're like getting
on in years, but you
don't seem to be slowing
down one little bit.
So that's really
something to admire.
Eben Alexander: I love doing
this and Rod, thank you for
getting this out to the world.
I'm so glad you're doing that.
And we know we have
some following there in
Australia and hopefully
they can band together and
start helping each other
and helping other people.
And this is all about
helping our fellow beings.
So let's get
together and do it.
Rod Bland: all right
I appreciate you being
my guest today, Eben.
I'll see you soon.
Eben Alexander: All right,
Rod, thanks so much.
Good talking with you.
Look forward to next time.