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British Online Archives (BOA) presents Talking History, the podcast in which we explore the past from a variety of angles and perspectives. Throughout this podcast series, we talk to historians and specialists working in related fields about their research. Together, we will delve into some of the most significant themes, events, and movements in history.
Intro: Intro music.
Welcome to Talking History with
British Online Archives, the
podcast in which we explore the
past from a variety of angles
and perspectives. British Online
Archives is an academic
publisher and digital repository
of historical source material,
based in the UK, and we work
closely with academics, museum
professionals, and heritage
organisations to curate primary
source collections for students
and researchers alike.
Throughout this podcast series,
we will talk to historians and
specialists working in related
fields about their research.
Together, we will delve into
some of the most significant
themes, events, and movements in
history.
Nathaniel: I'm Nathaniel
Andrews, Senior Editor here at
BOA, and in this episode, I
speak to Dr. Danny Evans,
Lecturer in Modern European
History at Liverpool Hope
University. Danny's research
centers primarily on the history
of the Spanish anarchist
movement, with a particular
focus on the Spanish Revolution.
His book, Revolution and the
State: Anarchism in the Spanish
Civil War 1936–1939, first
published in 2018, and released
in paperback by AK Press in
2020, explores the relationship
between the anarchist movement
and the Spanish Republican
government, the various ruptures
within the movement that
appeared during the conflict,
and ultimately the dismantling
of the revolution in May 1937.
With fellow historian Jim
Yeoman, Danny cohosts the
Anarchist Book Club Podcast, ABC
with Danny and Jim, available on
Spotify, in which they interview
researchers of radical history
around the world. I met up with
Danny in Liverpool back in
February where we discussed the
nature of anarchism, the
importance of the anarchist
movement within the broader
history of Spain, and of course,
the Spanish Civil War. It was a
really interesting and
informative discussion. And I
hope you enjoy.
Danny, thanks very much for
welcoming me into your home for
this interview.
Danny: It's a pleasure.
Nathaniel: Full disclosure to
the listener, I've got a bit of
a vested interest in this
interview because Danny works on
the history of Spanish
anarchism. I also work in a
fairly similar field, not
entirely the same as Danny. I
think it's fair to say that you
concentrate much more on the
Spanish Civil War, anti-fascism,
and so on, which we'll come on
to. So I'm particularly excited
to get to talk to you about
this. Normally, we start these
interviews asking academics what
got them into the topic, right,
and why they think this is
important in this broader
context of history. But I
thought for this interview,
because we're talking about
Spanish anarchism, it might be a
good idea to address anarchism
itself first, right? Because
it's a term which is often
banded around and is often kind
of portrayed, especially on the
right, as synonymous with chaos
or disorder. And there's, there
are certain connotations
attached to it that it might be
best to unpick. So what do you
mean by anarchism, first of all?
Danny: Okay, well, when I talk
about anarchism, historically,
what I'm talking about is that
section of the socialist
movement that rejected formal
politics and formal political
participation. So anarchists
didn't form classical political
parties, they didn't stand for
election, and they didn't seek
to gain political power. So
that's the fundamental
difference between anarchists
and other varieties of
socialists. And the big cleavage
in the socialist movement that
was foundational to anarchism,
as a movement emerging in the
1870s, was between Marxists who
advocated political
participation and seeking to
take control of the state, and
the anarchists who didn't, who
rejected that alternative. So
when I talk about anarchism, in
that sense, what I mean is a
kind of anti-state socialist,
but I appreciate that it has a
potentially, has a much broader
meaning, particularly when we
take it out of the historical
context and try to use it in, I
suppose, a more politically
precise kind of way. But when we
talk about anarchism,
historically, its historical
significance, and insofar as it
became a mass movement, I think
that's really what we're talking
about.
Nathaniel: So I suppose it'd be
fair to say it's a type of
socialism. Not all socialist or
anarchist, but all anarchists
are socialist, sort of a crude
simplification.
Danny: Well, I think to say that
all anarchists are socialists
is, on its face, incorrect. But
when we're talking about Spanish
anarchist, when we're talking
about these, like historical
movements, these historical mass
movements, yeah, they were, they
were socialist movements.
Nathaniel: And these movements
are not just anti-capitalist,
but anti-hierarchical. Like
nowadays, might talk about
horizontalism, the idea of not
having a sort of top down
leadership structure, is that a
similar thing to what we see in
Spanish anarchism?
Danny: Yeah, well, Spanish
anarchists in their
organisations tried to make
provisions against the
possibility of, like, fixed
authorities and fixed
leaderships emerging. So there's
a strong emphasis on autonomy,
whether at a kind of a localised
level, or in terms of like the
autonomy of particular anarchist
groups and in, in its trade
union organising. In its
relationship with the trade
union movement, anarchists
advocated as much
decentralisation and as much,
like, bottom up structures as
possible to avoid a kind of
fixed leadership emerging,
right? So it's not necessarily
like a constant and permanent
opposition to leadership, but
like an opposition to a fixed
position of leadership.
Nathaniel: I suppose if you have
leaders, then you also have that
strong accountability as well,
right? So you can get rid of
them basically, and you can
recall people. So it isn't like
a representative version of a
democratic structure. It's more
of a delegate model, right? Is
that you kind of empower people
to represent your views, but
they can't sort of gain power
over you beyond that.
Danny: Yeah, exactly, yeah. And
then, I mean, that's the theory,
yeah. I mean, sometimes, in
practice, it didn't quite work
out like that. But yeah, that
was, that was the theory, for
sure. That you'd have like
recallable delegates, and that
insofar as you would have like
bodies that would coordinate and
cohere, like organisational
movements, then they would, they
would be limited to that kind of
role, right of coordination, as
opposed to direction.
Nathaniel: So your research, I
hope it's fair to say, centers
mainly on the history of Spanish
anarchism. It does touch as
well, on anarchism in Latin
America, as well, at various
points. But it's mainly Spain
we're talking about?
Danny: Yes, yeah.
Nathaniel: Why is it, then that
we're talking about Spain and
not, say, Britain, France,
Italy? What is, what is unique?
Or, I suppose, what stands out
most about the Spanish case when
we're talking about the history
of anarchism?
Danny: Well, as far as I'm
concerned, and I think it's to
do with longevity and
organisational strength. Well,
what do I mean by that? Like so
prior to, say, the First World
War, the development of
anarchism in Spain wasn't like,
particularly exceptional when
you compare it to other
countries. In fact, you could
argue almost that a country like
Britain, which didn't have much
of a, an anarchist presence,
except among exile groups who
settled in London, was more
exceptional in that sense,
right? It didn't have the
makings of a mass anarchist
movement. Eric Hobsbawm, the
famous historian, I think,
commented that, you know, around
the turn of the century, that
when you take the workers
movement as a whole on an
international scale, there were
more, like, signs of anarchist
influence than of any other
variety of socialism. So at that
point, you know the fact that
there was a significant presence
of anarchists in Spain that had
an influence within the workers
movement, that had a network of
propaganda groups, produced a
great deal of newspapers, and
had like international
connections and so on. Wasn't,
it wasn't particularly unusual.
What is unusual is that
anarchism emerged from the years
of the First World War stronger
in Spain than, than it had gone
into it, which is exceptional,
particularly because, well, when
compared to the belligerent
countries in the war, right,
which the war years for those
belligerent countries, suppose
the, like, state repression of
oppositional groups. A lot of
socialist movements were split
in terms of whether they
supported their national
governments and things, and
anarchists weren't any
different. You know, in that
sense. So anarchist movements
were also split. And then at the
end of the First World War, you
have the challenge of Bolshevism
as an alternative organisational
form. Which other countries in
Europe, sought to bring
together, anti-war
revolutionaries, many of whom
were anarchists. But who were
attracted by this apparent
success of the Bolshevik model,
gravitated towards what became
communism in those years. And
Spain is exceptional in that
sense, in that because the
anarchist influenced trade
union, the CNT, emerged from the
years of the First World War
stronger than before, and was in
a position to define itself on
its own terms and not, it didn't
necessarily have to seek the
patronage, of movement in other
countries. You know, it gained
something like over 800,000
members by 1919. It had been
through a kind of revolutionary
situation in the years, sort of
1917/18, in Spain, which had
allowed it to define itself more
clearly against its socialist
rivals. I feel like we're going
off on a bit of a tangent here.
Nathaniel: No, no. I mean,
that's, it's all very helpful
context, I think, for the
listener. I mean, I think the
CNT is certainly something which
will, I imagine, come up time
and time again, the National
Confederation of Labour is what
that stands for. I mean, there's
one figure which always stands
out. You mentioned in 1919 how,
it had over 800,000 members. And
just to put that into a bit of
perspective, at the time, Spain
had a population of, I believe
around 20 million people, so
that is a lot. I mean
proportionally, that's a lot of people.
Danny: Yeah. So I think that
when you think about the levels
of influence that, that would,
that would have. You can imagine
that often, like when historians
talk about the numbers of a
trade union, like, you know, or
an organisation like the CNT, or
like any other, like, political
party. The tendency is to
downplay the significance of
high numbers. So you would say,
for example, that being a member
of the CNT didn't necessarily
mean that you were fully
committed to the CNT's ideology
and goals and so forth. But I
think there's another way of
looking at it, which is that if
you have, as you say, a very
high proportion of the general
population who are exposed to
revolutionary propaganda, right,
on a fairly regular basis, and
are part of that world, then the
influence of that sort of the
revolutionary movement also
extends beyond just those
800,000 people, who are, who are
formerly members in their
workplace. You know, that it's
going to, like, extend into
those people's homes. You know,
people who aren't in in work,
you know, because they're too
young, or because they're
excluded through their gender or
whatever it might be. Were also
being exposed to these ideas.
You know, I think once you reach
that kind of like, mass of
people, then, then, in some
ways, it's hard to, perhaps this
is putting it too strongly, but
the significance and relative
importance of that, sort of,
movement and that ideology is
really hard to overstate, I
think, and it's also quite hard
for historians today to get our
heads around. Right, because we
think about politics and like
what politics people have as
like, mostly as being a kind of
choice that you make as an
adult, that, you know, it's
somewhere reflective, perhaps,
of your like position in
society, or, you know, your
social status, or what have you.
But it's more or less a kind of
like rational decision you make
having come to a certain degree
of literacy and so forth, in
like formative years. Whereas I
think when you're talking about
a country like Spain in this
period, which didn't have like a
significant comprehensive
education system, which didn't
have like a cohesive national
culture, in a way, right, which
is still, like, vastly divided
between like rural and urban,
between different, like, parts
of the country along regional
lines. When, when you have,
like, this organisation that is
able to, like cohere on a
national level, which provides,
like many people's like, gateway
to literacy, to political
understanding. You know, like,
that's their kind of starting
point, not their end point. And
so, at that end point, they come
out of this and say, okay, now
I'm an anarchist. It's all
folded into the same process,
that a lot of people are
starting work at very young
ages, and being exposed to these
ideas. In the same way that
other people might, like go to
school and be exposed, you know,
be given like short stories or
what have you to teach them
literacy. You know, people are
being exposed to political ideas
in that same way, you know, like
that combination of like
learning, intellectual
possibility, opening up to
different ideas is, is tied in
with their exposure to this
movement. And it's just, I
think, yeah, it's hard to
appreciate, it takes a leap of
the imagination, I think, to
appreciate, like, how
significant and powerful, and
what revolutionary potential
exists in that, in that
situation, in that like
conjunction. But that said, you
know, like, that, that's the CNT
at the end of the nine-teens, is
that how you say that? The
19-teens, right? The 1920s, the
movement underwent a period of
significant repression,
violence, dictatorship, so it
still wasn't, you know, it's not
a given that the CNT would
endure in the way it did. And
I'm not an expert on the 20s,
but just talking about anarchist
exceptionalism, the fact that
the CNT was able to endure that
decade in Spain and emerge in
the early 1930s, reemerge in the
early 1930s, with comparable
strength to what it had prior to
that decade is certainly, I
think, an exceptional factor.
Because, you know, you think
about the 1920s around Europe,
the growth of authoritarianism,
both of like left and right, the
squeezing of like spaces for
alternative politics. The CNT is
certainly anomalous in that
respect, from the way that it
reemerges. You know, I think
probably it would be too much of
a tangent to go into, like, the
different reasons for why that
would be. And also, you know,
I'm not an expert on the 20s, I
would just be, I would just be
like, posing hypotheses.
Nathaniel: I think the influence
of the CNT and of the anarchist
movement beyond what I think of
as, you know, sort of
straightforward trade union
organising is something that
we'll come back to, because
that's, that's very important,
and I agree that it's something
that we can't overstate. Let's
move forward a little bit in
time then so, as you mentioned,
we have a period of dictatorship
1920s, so 1923 to 1930. We have
the dictatorship of Miguel Primo
de Rivera in Spain. And then we
come into the 1930s and we have
the birth of the Second Spanish
Republic in 1931. Let's fast
forward a few more years from
then on to 1936, we have the
beginning of the Spanish Civil
War. Now we'll talk in a moment
about anarchism during civil war
itself, right? And this is kind
of, I think, many would argue
the, sort of, most important
moment in the history of Spanish
anarchism. Could you maybe give
the listener a very brief
summary of what that conflict
was about. I know it's a very,
very complicated war, really to,
sort of, put into a couple of
buzzwords. But roughly, in your
view, what, what was this conflict?
Danny: Well, the Spanish Civil
war began with a military coup,
or an attempted military coup,
against, as you say, the Second
Republic, which was a democratic
system of governance, and
specifically against the
government who had come to power
in February 1936. A few months
before the Civil War began,
which was a government committed
to the original sort of
reforming program of the Spanish
Republic. So that was seen to
threaten traditional landed
interests within Spain, to
threaten the power and influence
of the church, and also,
potentially, anyway, the,
certain members of the officer
class in the army. And also, you
know, there's a very strong.
Well, this is a period in, in
the wider world of
anti-democratic movements. You
know, Spain was not inured to,
to that, to those developments.
So there's hostility to
democracy as a system of
governance. Essentially a
conspiracy comes together to
overthrow the Spanish democracy.
So the generals who led this
coup attempt were able to count
on the support of, a sort of,
wide coalition, really, of
supporters, both amongst, like,
the landowning and property
classes, church, and like
traditionalists, many of whom
were poor, among the peasantry
or the working class. But people
who, like, valued the
Catholicism or had a particular
take on Spanish national
identity, Carlists, and things
like this. So you have that
right, a coalition coming
together prepared to use force
of arms to overthrow democracy.
So that's like one side. It
would be very simple to say, you
know, and then, there's, you
know, democracy trying to defend
itself on the other side. But it
was, I mean, it'd be too
simplistic to say, because the
Republic in those first, like,
crucial days of the Spanish
Civil War, wasn't able to
appropriately defend itself. It
went through a number of
governmental changes. It was
thrown into chaos, both at a
national, central level, and a
regional level, in terms of its
authority. I mean, you imagine,
like that, this would, this
would happen in any country
where the military rebels
against the state, and also, you
know, draws in sections of the
population, chunks of the police
and things like this on its
side. Then the state, which
depends on those forces for its
own legitimacy and survival, is
inevitably going to be thrown
into chaos. But you also have
the fact that the people who are
representative of the Republic
in this period are the kind of
representatives of a fairly
narrow political tradition,
right, of moderate sort of
liberalism, Republicanism and so
on, which is restricted to, a
sort of, quite small middle
class base, and is insufficient
to really defend itself
appropriately against this,
like, coalition. And that might
have been the end of the story,
except for the fact that the
organised working class, both
the CNT, the anarchist
influenced trade union, and the
UGT, socialist influenced trade
union, along with left wing
political parties, are prepared
to mount, like, armed resistance
to the coup. The anarchists are
particularly important in this
because they lead the initial
resistance in Barcelona. And I
think it's extremely significant
because this is the first city,
the first major city, where the
coup is, is defeated, and not
defeated in a sort of, through
the lack of decisiveness of the
military, or like the passivity,
or anything like this. It is
defeated on the streets in open
fighting, and it's the defense
committees of the CNT, which is,
a sort of, self defense
organisation that had existed
for several years prior. That
took the lead in, in mounting
resistance to the military and,
okay, so after that initial
resistance is mounted, you know,
lots of different actors emerge
who are willing to collaborate,
willing to defend, either defend
the Republic or fight against
the military coup, depending on
what their perspective was. But
you know, without that initial
decisive action on the part of
the, the CNT, it's unlikely that
the coup would have been
defeated, in my opinion. And
similar stories take place in
other major cities, you know,
even in places where the
anarchists aren't necessarily as
strong, but, you know, but where
they participate in significant
numbers, like in Madrid, other
places where the anarchists are
stronger and have more of a
decisive role, places like
Malaga, Gijón, a port city in
Asturias, Valencia, and so on.
In all of these, like major
cities, the coup is defeated.
But in all, in all of those
cases, a decisive element has
been the willingness of ordinary
working people, organised in
trade unions, to acquire weapons
and face down the military coup.
So that is another aspect in the
sort of loss of legitimacy and
authority of the Republican
government. Because, okay, so
you have, on the one hand, the
state that's already sort of
split in half, which I think is
like the nature of a civil war,
particularly one that begins
with a rebellion on the part of,
like, the armed forces. But then
you also have the fact that the
government has to contend with,
are working class power on the
streets, because once the
military coup has been defeated,
in all of these cities, to a
greater or lesser extent. And
that, you know, the social
transformations are much more
profound in some areas than in
others. But in all of those
areas, you have like, armed
workers on the streets who are
the de facto authority, who are
controlling traffic, who are
trying to root out remaining
supporters of the military coup,
who are occupying properties and
things like this. So, you know,
you have, like, the big, you
have a revolutionary situation
emerging. And in terms of, like,
the role of anarchism in the
Civil War, really, that, it
revolves around this revolution,
right? So, because on, on the
one hand, you have what takes
place in terms of the revolution
expanding and strengthening
itself in the months that follow
that, and the initial street
fighting. So in areas where, in
areas where the military coup
has failed, you have, like,
widespread worker takeover of
industry in rural areas, like
the collectivisation of land.
Often of reorganisation of
village or town life according
to, or more or less according to
anarchist precepts, you know,
with the pre-existing influence
of the CNT being kind of
fundamental, in how people
decided to reorganise their
societies. There is also the
formation of militia, which is
not just restricted to the
anarchists, but again, you know,
it's their initiative in the, in
the early days that sort of sets
the template for these, like,
bodies of armed workers,
essentially, who set off to meet
the military coup and try to
liberate cities that have fallen
to it. And then as they advance,
like particularly as columns
from Barcelona advanced towards
Saragossa, through Aragon, in
those areas that are liberated,
there is a, you know, again, a
transformation, a social
transformation in those, in
those areas, along kind of
revolutionary lines. So that's
like one aspect I suppose, of
anarchism in the Spanish Civil
War, that it inspires and is
involved in this extremely
profound and far reaching
revolutionary transformation.
But also because of, like the,
the significance and the
prominence of the anarchist
movement in these early months,
it becomes imperative for any
central authority or attempt to
sort of, re-establish the
Nathaniel: Thank you. That's a
really useful summary of what,
central authority in the Spanish
Republic to incorporate the
as you say, is a very
complicated story. And I would
assistance and collaboration of
the anarchist movement. So
obviously simplifying a fairly
complicated story. By November
definitely urge listeners as
well to have a look at the work
1936, so was this four, four
months after the beginning of
the Spanish Civil War? Four
anarchists joined the central
which Danny's done on,
specifically on the May Days of
government of Largo Caballero,
the Socialist Prime Minister,
1937. Because as you say this is
the kind of culmination of a, I
which is like an unprecedented
event in history, with
anarchists who have always been
opposed to political
suppose you might call it a
counter revolutionary process,
participation, joining a central
government. But really this was
only the, kind of, the tip of
the iceberg in terms of
right? I think one of the tricky
things to convey, when I've
anarchist collaboration with the
Republican state, because that's
at all levels, from central
government down to, like local
taught this topic to
undergraduate students, is that
town halls and things like this.
The CNT was involved in a kind
you have the Spanish Civil War.
The country, as you say, is kind
of collaboration with other
anti-fascist forces in the sort
of administration of the
Republican territory. And so,
of fractured into these two
zones, Republican and
you know, that, to an extent,
shows the, the limits of that,
nationalist, or rebel zone. But
that doesn't necessarily mean
of that revolution. But also,
you know, the extent to which,
like the, telling the story of
the Spanish Civil War involves,
that in the Republican zone, the
Republic is in control of the
like, a fairly, necessarily, a
fairly central role for
anarchism, which is effectively
divided by this question, right,
situation. There is a revolution
that takes place, and then
of how to best collaborate with
anti-fascist forces, how best to
obviously the Republican
government, there is this
advance a kind of war policy,
whether through revolutionary or
state means. And all of this
comes to a head in street
collaboration with the anarchist
movement. But ultimately, it
fighting in Barcelona in May
1937, in the famous May Days.
wants the rest of that control
back, doesn't it? And that
After which the CNT is
increasingly sidelined from the
top levels of government, but
remains, right up until the end
culminates in the May Days of
1937. As listeners will no doubt
of the Civil War, a key
constituent, part of the
anti-Francoist, as it becomes, resistance.
be aware, the Spanish Civil War
ultimately ended in defeat. The
Republicans and the anarchist
movements and so on. And that is
also a very complicated story.
So we could go off on a very,
very long tangent about, about
how and why that came to pass. I
thought that we'd go back a
little bit to something that we
touched on earlier, when we were
talking on that sort of pre war
period, pre Civil War period. We
referred to the sort of wider
influence of anarchism in Spain,
so outside of just trade union
spaces, and talk a bit about
what we might call anarchist
culture. That's something that
the historiography has sort of
begun to focus on in the past
couple of decades, really. So
could you say a little bit about
what made anarchist culture in
Spain distinctive compared to,
say, communist movements or the
socialist movement?
Danny: Yeah, like, I can say a
little bit, but I think
probably, I'd be interested in
what you have to say about this,
really, to be honest. Like you
say, right? It was extremely
significant, extremely important
to the anarchist movement that
it had, like this scope beyond
the workplace, because when you
think about the CNT, right? It's
the most important
organisational expression of
anarchist strength in Spain. But
it's, you know, it's a trade
union, so it's based in the
workplace. So if you aren't in a
workplace, right, because of
whatever reason that might be.
Or if you're in a workplace
where the CNT is, doesn't have a
presence, then you know, how
would you get involved in
anarchism? So there were, like,
obviously, other means to, to
expose yourself to the world of
anarchism, and like, one of the
key ways would be through, like,
excursion groups. So this was
something that, I think also
really crucial to, like,
maintaining a kind of anarchist
counterculture, or subculture,
if you like, during periods of
repression, particularly during
the 1920s. So normally, as a
part of like cultural centers,
which were called Atenea, I
suppose, like the correct term
is Athenaeum, like we have the
Liverpool Athenaeum in town. You
would have workers groups that
organise, like trips to the
countryside, basically. And
these trips would be, like, a
nice day out for people, for
kids, like, young people. They
were a great way for boys and
girls to socialise together. You
know, obviously this was not
something that was happening, at
least in, like, the normal
schools of Spain in that period.
But they were also like ways for
anarchists to talk politics, to
try and teach people their
position on things. Speaking of
teaching, there's a major
educational element to the
anarchist movement, both in
terms of trying to inculcate a
kind of anarchist worldview in
people, like, and teaching,
like, a kind of anarchist
position. But also, like, just
much more broader, like
educational, like remit, in
terms of like, teaching
literacy, teaching languages.
Esperanto, and the teaching of
Esperanto was a major pursuit of
anarchists in Spain, as it was
elsewhere. And, you know, among
like non-anarchists as well.
Education around sexuality was
also, like, another key aspect
of the anarchist's, like,
cultural world. And this
education would either take
place, you know, could take
place on these, like,
excursions, as I say. Could take
place through schools. So
anarchists set up free schools,
which often like, invoked the
tradition of Francisco Ferrer,
who was like a famous anarchist
pedagogue, who was murdered by
the Spanish State in 1909. And
you know, there were famous,
like, anarchist teachers in this
interwar period, people like
Joan Puig I Elias, who ran the
school known as Natura. And
these schools would often be
supported financially or even
attached to specific branches of
the CNT. So you can see, kind of
like, there's an overlap,
really, between, like, the
strength of the CNT as a
workplace based organisation and
this, like broader cultural
world. And also like, this, this
education took place through
like publications. So you would
have, like, anarchist like
publications, which, on the face
of it appeared to be dedicated
to, like, the dissemination of
anarchist theory or propaganda
or what have you, which also
contain this, like strong
educational element in which
they might talk about
developments in sciences, in
geography, in the arts. And
which also ran things like
agony, agony aunt style columns
in which people could write in
about their experiences and be
replied to by doctors who are
symapthetic to the anarchist
movement. There's an article by
our friend Sophie Turbutt on
this very issue, in relation to
the anarchist magazine La
Revista Blanca, which I would
recommend people read. But in
terms of like, how different
that made Spanish anarchism to
other movements around Europe.
To be honest, I don't know if
I'd be in a position to, to make
any sort of claims in that
regard, because it does seem to
me that, say, the German Social
Democratic movement in the years
before the First World War, you
know, have similar sort of
networks of education, and on
its fringes would have, like,
more from the point of view of
Orthodox socialism, or sort of
esoteric kind of concerns as
well. You know, you think about,
like, people like Wilhelm Reich
and the work in sorts of sex
education, things like that. It
does seem to me that there's
probably scope for comparison,
the extent to which anarchism
separated itself off. I mean,
even when you think about things
like vegetarianism, Esperanto,
naturism. Things which I suppose
seem like the most esoteric
elements of an anarchist
culture, they did also all exist
in, outside of Spain, perhaps
like the main difference, as I
say, is like the longevity, the
sort of scope of anarchist culture.
Nathaniel: That's what I'd say,
I think it seems really a
Thank you very much.
question of emphasis, which the
sheer, I mean, as you say, in
terms the number of publications
that existed in Spain during
this period, anarchist
publications. You know that,
there are so many magazines
which talk about, as you say,
vegetarianism, nudism,
sexuality, sexual health. It's,
yeah, it's longevity and just
the sheer magnitude of it, while
it, while it sort of maintained
that influence, I think. The
thing which I haven't mentioned
so far, because I think, in a
sense that would be worthy of an
interview, in and of itself, is
the relationship between
anarchism and gender dynamics in
the movement. So that is how,
you know, the anarchist ideology
sort of reflected and then tried
to subvert gender norms. Now,
obviously we don't have time to
go in to too much detail, but,
but I, I suppose that I would, I
would consider that very much a
part of this anarchist cultural
project. We might call it right?
This attempt to kind of
prefigure an alternative
society. That even started in
the home, like which you
mentioned before, in terms of
the relationship between
parents, parents and each other,
and their children, education,
and so on. So yeah, there is,
there is a lot of literature out
there, which I'd encourage
readers to have a look at, on
anarchism, not just in the Civil
War, but more broadly, in the
modern history of Spain. Thank
you very much, Danny, for giving
us the time and for letting us
into your home. And I guess all
that remains for me to say is
that, hope the listeners enjoyed
Oh, pleasure.
the discussion. I'm sure they'll
find absolutely fascinating, and
do check out Danny's work.
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