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Behind the scenes stories of how we're building bootstrapped companies
Andrew Warner: [00:00:00] Jesse, I got something personal for you, what I did this morning and then what happened in my head. So I did this post on LinkedIn about how I'm [00:00:09] doing my pushups, posted it on xl. So I really love all the fricking feedback that comes in. Frankly, I don't love writing nearly as much as I love responding to all the people on feedback.
And a lot of them were [00:00:18] give me like all kinds of advice and I said, I get it. I'd love to like weightlifting, but I can't freaking stand it. I don't even really love doing pushups. I love running [00:00:27] pushups, just blah. But I'm doing it 'cause I want my chest to look good. Anyway, after saying it a few times, I realized, wait, there's gotta be a way.
And then it occurred to me, there's a guy who has [00:00:36] a ranch right down the road from us who has got a gym in his ranch. I just didn't know how to find him, but I happened to, as I was driving past him one day, see him, I [00:00:45] honked my horn like a maniac. Got him to come out of his gate. Yes. He gave me the same look you did.
Like, what the hell? But he came out, I got information from him [00:00:54] and he's pretty strict. He wanted me to come in a few times to make sure that I knew what I was doing, and then I got included in today's workout. I got to do it. It felt great, but [00:01:03] here's why I'm telling Jesse Pooey, you know what's going on in my head.
This is not gonna last. How many times have you tried working out [00:01:12] and it's never lasted? I actually have been afraid to ask you if you're still working out, because if you then are telling me that you're not working out, then it feels like you're [00:01:21] either a gym person or you're not. And so I figured, I'm gonna talk this out just like I said that I, that I wanted to like lifting weights because it might help me.
[00:01:30] What do you make of this?
Jesse Pujji: Um. I think it's that conversation in your head that [00:01:39] that gets in your way. Basically. I think it's a conversation everybody's had that gets in their way.
Andrew Warner: I, I guess I know [00:01:48] it, but I'm afraid of even tackling it because if I tackle it, then I put more effort on it, and as a result, now I'm the guy who really wants to work out, and then if it doesn't work out, then I'm the guy who [00:01:57] really wanted to work out and it didn't work out.
It didn't happen. Why? You know what I mean? Why is
Jesse Pujji: working out such a
Andrew Warner: charged
Jesse Pujji: issue for you?
Andrew Warner: There are a few things in my life [00:02:06] that I really wanted and I couldn't get, and one of them was like a big chest and abs and I paid these personal trainers so much [00:02:15] money, spend so much time doing it, and I finally just said, look, I'm not getting the results.
It's years of doing this. I'm just gonna stop. But that magical [00:02:24] moment, Jesse made me think, oh, you can't do anything. Maybe there's some things that just are not your body or not you. Um, [00:02:33] up until then I thought, okay, if I obsess on something and how much more obsessive can you get? I even was eating Turkey sandwiches for breakfast 'cause I don't care.
I'll eat whatever.
Jesse Pujji: Right, right, right. [00:02:42] So it feels like it's some kind of like major life disappointment for you.
Andrew Warner: Yeah. Yeah. I guess. Well, it makes more
Jesse Pujji: [00:02:51] sense now that you said that. Like, if you, it's the first time you just said, it's the first time you realize you can't do anything you want. You couldn't have a six pack if you wanted it.
But
Andrew Warner: yeah, before then I [00:03:00] could say it's because I didn't put any energy in it. I didn't care about it. Now I cared. Oof.
Jesse Pujji: Are you willing to feel all your sadness around that and [00:03:09] cry about that?
Andrew Warner: There's a thing that you and Coach Dave Cashin do, which is, are you willing to feel it? And in my head, I [00:03:18] always think I have been feeling it.
It's been such a letdown of my life that I couldn't that so much that it's scarring me now. But you mean a [00:03:27] different thing,
Jesse Pujji: but what you described is not feeling, what did it you just said? What you said is I've been thinking about it a lot. I think about it a lot. [00:03:36]
Andrew Warner: Yeah. I filed it away as a, huh. Okay.
There's a thing I need to not do or to be correct, watchful of feeling
Jesse Pujji: is feeling it's an actual sensation. It's [00:03:45] a thing that your body experiences, not your brain.
Andrew Warner: I don't know how to, I don't know how to even like begin to understand that beyond. [00:03:54] I, I don't know, beyond just saying yes. When was the last
Jesse Pujji: time you cried?
Andrew Warner: It's been
Jesse Pujji: a
Andrew Warner: while,
Jesse Pujji: but you know, that's a [00:04:03] feeling, right? That's just a thing that happens. Like it's a physical experience. It's not a, your brain is not necessarily involved, certainly not directly. You can't [00:04:12] make yourself cry as an example, right?
Andrew Warner: I feel like I could by putting a feeling in my head, actually.
I know, I know. The last time I cried, I'll tell, I'll tell you about this later, but [00:04:21] it's a song that I made using suno, I swear about my wife, and it made me cry. Okay. So, but can you make
Jesse Pujji: yourself cry right now?
Andrew Warner: No, because I'm [00:04:30] too intimidated of being in with someone else and having a shared
Jesse Pujji: feeling in public.
Yeah. But anyway, the, the, if you felt your feeling, your feelings [00:04:39] around that, it might lose its. It might lose its power over you and you might just think like, Hey, like for me, I'll, I'll tell you my story around working out and similar, like, [00:04:48] I, I like to eat what I like to eat. I like good food. I like to eat sweetss.
And you know, you just naturally gain weight if you're not paying [00:04:57] attention. And I never, I played tennis competitively growing up, but I didn't have like a good exercise routine. Some people were doing it from college. I, I never was one of those people. And then I'd like [00:05:06] wake up and I'd weigh 210 pounds and I'd look like, holy crap, like I've got a tire around myself.
And then I would, mine was more like I, my version of Accomplish Anything was like, you just [00:05:15] gimme a goal and I'll hit the goal. And so I would do like P 90 X or I would do T 25 or like I've done all of those programs and I'm amazing at [00:05:24] them. And I'm talking like, dude, in 90 days I'm doing 10 pull-ups. I drop 30 or 40 pounds.
Like, I am a beast. And then I like, and then I would do that, and [00:05:33] then, then I would fall off the wagon somehow 'cause of a trip or something would happen and I would obsess over it. Right? Like my wife, anyone around me was like, this guy is just obsessed. [00:05:42] Mm-hmm. Like, it, it's all he's thinking about. And then like, I'd, I'd feel how much willpower was going into it.
Then I'd let up on a little bit and then I'd stop and then I'd, and then two years [00:05:51] later I'd be 210 pounds again. Like, so it was almost like my chart would be like. Slowly this down, slowly this down, slowly this down. And [00:06:00] you know, I can say now proudly, I think like I've been lifting weights at least two times a week since [00:06:09] 2021.
Andrew Warner: Wow. Oh, I didn't know it was that far back. I assumed it was, uh, two years ago.
Jesse Pujji: Pretty much since I moved to St. Louis. Okay. Um. [00:06:18] And I, you know, I'm on a, I'm on a five to six day exercise routine. I'm like generally eating better. My weight has definitely, like, stabilized, not perfect, but it's stabilized. [00:06:27] Um, and I think I just stopped, meaning making it mean anything about me.
I see. Like there was no, there, it just [00:06:36] didn't mean that I like, because I kind of like go of being the guy who could hit goals that, that like that that identity left me. And I'm like, well, like I kind of like want my body to [00:06:45] function well and it seems like exercise and I like feel good after I do it.
And now I, like, I always go in the sauna on hot tub after, so it adds like a little bit of an incentive for [00:06:54] me. I've gotten a trainer and that is, that's helpful because I know he's waiting on me. And so like I do some, I do like times that I would not normally work out, like first thing in the [00:07:03] morning on Mondays and Thursdays I work out and I would never go do that on my own, but he's waiting for me.
And he's like an intense blackball, blackball dude. He's like massive [00:07:12] named Rock. His name is Rock. Um, and then on Saturday afternoons I do it on my own. So I, I lift three times a week. I play tennis two or three times a week. [00:07:21] Um, but, but you know, like the, the, the way, like I'm, I don't have a goal that's like, it's like no goal for it, which is kind of crazy.
[00:07:30] And if I miss a few days or whatever, I was like, it's not, I don't, I just get back on. Do you enjoy it? Uh, no, not really. Not [00:07:39] particularly. Yeah. So how do, how do you do a
Andrew Warner: thing that you don't enjoy? I love running.
Jesse Pujji: I love, I love how I feel after it. Okay. I love the way my body feels day to day, how it looks.
Yeah. Um, but [00:07:48] like, part of the reason I have a trainer and like him and I like every, like him and I barely talk. Mm-hmm. I actually have headphones on when I'm training with him. I know. I love
Andrew Warner: that you do that, that you told him, look, I don't even want to talk to you. I [00:07:57] wanna listen to my own thing.
Jesse Pujji: I just, like, I li I listen to like either, you know, spiritual music or, or something, and then.
Then he's just like, do this, do [00:08:06] this. And I actually like, the one thing I do enjoy about it is, you know, you and I like you're entrepreneur, you're building a business. You're always thinking and you're constantly having to like figure out [00:08:15] very what the next
Suno: move is.
Jesse Pujji: Multifaceted problems. It's not like a simple problem.
And this is like, I'm a monkey. He's like, do 10 of these 10 dead lifts. Now I [00:08:24] do 10 more now. And I'm just, I don't, my brain is completely off. And so I do enjoy, it's almost meditative in the sense that I'm just like. How many? 12. [00:08:33] Okay. And then I feel great afterwards, and so I, I don't, I don't crave it. I mean, I do actually.
Interesting. I crave the feeling [00:08:42] now. So if I don't lift for, if I miss a day or two, I like want to feel the feeling of like the resistant, having had the [00:08:51] resistance. Um, but I think the most important thing was like, I just stopped making it, making it mean anything about me one way or the other. It didn't make me good.
It didn't make me bad. It was just. It [00:09:00] was like, uh, you know, it was like brushing my teeth. It was like, yeah, it's just a thing I do.
Andrew Warner: Well, I'm gonna see. I do like that. It's a group [00:09:09] program, a group class, and he's just telling everyone what to do. And that's always what I loved about running. I don't have to figure it out.
In fact, I didn't like long distance bike riding [00:09:18] because no matter how well organized it was, you always had to figure out some turn somewhere. And I don't even wanna think about that. I just want to have a little bit.
Jesse Pujji: Totally. Yeah. I think you wanna turn your [00:09:27] brain off. Yeah. And yeah.
Andrew Warner: Alright. I didn't realize that you were still doing it.
Okay. This thing, I'm gonna talk to you about it 'cause I'm so lit up about it. This thing, SUNO [00:09:36] that I was telling you made me cry. You gotta try this. I just, I just, what I did was I made a song about how great dad is for the kids. You know, just bust their [00:09:45] chops. I did this, I did that. Made them laugh, and then they kept repeating it, which then they hated because it's so catchy.
Then I said, wait, I'm being a real jerk. Look what Olivia [00:09:54] just did. So I went and I made one about her. And we listened to it a couple times. It was really touching, and then I listened to it on my own, and it was like all the things [00:10:03] that I, that I'd seen her do. Oh, that, that's what made me cry. That's, that's the thing.
I'm actually learning how to tap into my own little [00:10:12] feelings like that, having reflected back at me without a human being. That's one of the things that I like about ai. There's something about talking to you, Jesse, and I trust you and I could tell you, and I, I'm sure I've told [00:10:21] you everything, but there's like an emotional Yeah.
Connection that I still can't get to. With ai. Can you ever do that?
Jesse Pujji: I'm, I'm trying it right now.
Andrew Warner: Oh, to [00:10:30] actually make a song?
Jesse Pujji: Yeah. How much information did you give it?
Andrew Warner: So, um. I gave it a bunch of examples. Actually. The way that I love doing it is I go to Claude. [00:10:39] Claude is very good artistically, and you go to Claude and you say, here are a bunch of things that I want.
I want you to write a song for me, and I want it to be [00:10:48] hip hop or whatever. For her, I wanted it to be like her f like a musician that she loves, and I said, I can't use the name of the musician. So I want you to describe how the musician works. [00:10:57] Um.
Jesse Pujji: Then you put that prompt into Eno.
Andrew Warner: Yeah. Then I put it in and that way they could get the person without actually,
Jesse Pujji: do you know that CENO means listen in Hindi?
Andrew Warner: No. I
Jesse Pujji: [00:11:06] didn't know what that meant. That's, that's,
Andrew Warner: I have to imagine. That's why they, they call it that, I imagine killer domain name too, by the way. [00:11:15] While you're doing that, they raise a quarter of a million dollars over $2 billion valuation for what, what do you, where do you see that going? I mean, mean music is
Jesse Pujji: a [00:11:24] massive market, right?
Like I would, I would start, I would go top down, right? I'd say like, how big is the market for music? There's, there's obviously the obvious, like the stars and [00:11:33] concerts and all that stuff. There's soundtracks to movies. Mm-hmm. There's advertising jingles. And then there's this whole other, I mean, you know, one of the [00:11:42] classic things of the best businesses, they create markets where markets didn't exist before.
Mm-hmm. Like Uber, you know, they famously, like Uber created all this usage that no one [00:11:51] was using taxis for. 'cause taxis were so hard to get to. So, I mean, look at the examples you just gave. Nobody, no, dad was doing that stuff 20 years ago. So [00:12:00] you've got the baseline of the market that's there, but then you've got all these other things and.
You know, I, I, I bet you the, I mean, they, I think they said there are 200 million in a r. Yes. I bet you [00:12:09] the music, the movie music business, Uhhuh, is probably a multi-billion dollar by itself, a multi-billion dollar industry. Like what does Han Zimmer get paid for? [00:12:18] All the Batman movies and all the, like, you know, the, that's gotta be a multi, multi-billion dollar, just that category alone.
Now, I mean, did you think about like [00:12:27] corporate offsites? Now you can have a custom walkup music for every executive at a corporate offsite. I mean, just so these kinds of businesses [00:12:36] expand markets in ways that, so it doesn't, it actually sounds very reasonable to me based on the valuation and based on probably the opportunity.
That's a
Andrew Warner: good point. You really now places where you [00:12:45] wouldn't have thought of music because it just didn't fit in. Now you can, you can not just add it, but you can touch someone and you don't have to deal with whole copyright headaches. They never did nail it [00:12:54] beyond like a TikTok type of thing, where if you wanna use someone else's music for something meaningful.
They make it a pain. How's it going for you to use, uh, SUNO?
Jesse Pujji: Uh, now I'm on [00:13:03] chat. GBT. Okay.
Andrew Warner: Asking it to make what? Make up a song about Harry. I said, based
Jesse Pujji: on what you know about me, write a rap. What makes me a great dad with a catchy RB hook.[00:13:12]
Andrew Warner: This is pretty good. It did something good. What'd it do?
Jesse Pujji: Can you say it
Andrew Warner: out
Jesse Pujji: loud? [00:13:21] Yeah, I'm reading it. What kind of artist should I do it to? How about like a Drake song?
Andrew Warner: Okay. Ask it to write a prompt, put in
Jesse Pujji: a rhythm pattern so you [00:13:30] can actually wrap it.
Andrew Warner: Mm-hmm.
Jesse Pujji: Wow, that's interesting. I mean, this is the one scary thing about Eno, right?
Andrew Warner: Mm-hmm. [00:13:39]
Jesse Pujji: Like the, the scary thing about all AI software businesses is like, is is chat, GBT gonna just eat all of these? Like, are the models gonna eat all [00:13:48] of these businesses?
Andrew Warner: Meaning like, right, you're already typing. I do get better results typing the lyrics into Claude, into chat. GBT. You're saying then what's to keep them from [00:13:57] eventually adding music in there too, as a feature?
Just say, make me a song instead of make me the lyrics and take to another
Jesse Pujji: site. Yeah. That's the scary thing. 'cause, 'cause soon, I mean, I assume, you know. Suno iss not, [00:14:06] they're using, they're obviously using these models to make their do their stuff, I imagine. Right. So we could probably, I bet you they even let you use different [00:14:15] models.
Andrew Warner: Um, they do a pretty good job of hiding all that stuff. Thankfully there was a tweet where someone said, look at all the money that's going [00:14:24] into these llm. And then, and how much revenue they're making. Look at how little money is going into SaaS AI companies and how [00:14:33] much revenue they're making. And Paul Graham's response to that is that there was a pretty good chance that they will actually eat all of them.
And so their high market cap, despite [00:14:42] the lower revenue right now, is, is justified.
Jesse Pujji: Yeah, I think that's right. I mean it's, it's like any of these things, the hype cycles beat, you [00:14:51] know, they essentially win out against. Uh, it reminds me of like, you know, there was a time when Google was like 10 times the size, or, or no.
The, the, the [00:15:00] best one is the famous, you know, the famous Steve Balmer gaff on the iPhone?
Andrew Warner: Mm-hmm.
Jesse Pujji: Yeah. Tell it where he, he is like, they're like, so what do you think about the iPhone? [00:15:09] And he's like a $600 phone after the subsidy with no keyboard, like nothing's dead in the water. And you know, it's a very famous [00:15:18] quote where the guy's just not.
He's just not thinking about the future at all. And it's just funny how, how common that mistake is. It's very weird for me to hear people do it because it's, [00:15:27] it's just not the way my brain works at all. Like, but dude, when I was starting ambush, people were like, Facebook's revenue is, you know, 5% of Googles now.
[00:15:36] It's like a one-to-one with Google on the ads business at least.
Andrew Warner: Wow. And not
Jesse Pujji: even that they're competing, by the way. I mean, they, they actually, they help drive support each other. [00:15:45] Um, alright. How do I listen to my song now?
Andrew Warner: Yeah, how do I listen to it? Had
Jesse Pujji: a good little lander. It made me sign up to listen to the song, but now I don't know where the song [00:15:54] went.
Andrew Warner: Share your screen. Let's take a look.
Jesse Pujji: I, I think there is something to be said about using, [00:16:03] um, let's see. So I know uses a hybrid architecture that combines transformative fusion. Yeah, I think some of the best AI companies are doing this, [00:16:12] which is actually like they, they take all the pieces, they split them up, they feed them, they feed them in different models to do different things, and that's a big [00:16:21] part of how they're able to be successful.
So that's like somewhat defensible. I,
Andrew Warner: oh, I see. According to Wikipedia, they publicly stated that the training data and full model [00:16:30] architecture are not fully disclosed. And then third party sources report that they use a blend of transformer and or diffusion style architectures, [00:16:39] their competitive edges frame around the product experience,
Jesse Pujji: which I, I think that's legit too.
Andrew Warner: I do too. [00:16:48] Unless chat becomes so easy that you can just ask for what you want. Okay, so you got the lyrics there. There should be a place Yeah, where you can put, oh, wait. [00:16:57] You put the style there and then the lyrics up there.
Jesse Pujji: Oh, it's too long.
Andrew Warner: Can it
Jesse Pujji: write
Andrew Warner: the lyrics
Jesse Pujji: for me?
Andrew Warner: It can. [00:17:06] I just happen to like Claude and that's kind of a weird thing where I find that Claude is my creative partner.
Jesse Pujji: Delete. Oh, here are the lyrics. Okay, fine. [00:17:15] This keeps upselling me, dude. Okay. This one I can use.
Andrew Warner: You might even be able to play the [00:17:24] others, but I love how fast you can start playing it before the fully the song is fully written. You can hit play.[00:17:33]
Jesse Pujji: Can you hear it? It not really. Hip hop. Oh, you head,
Suno: [00:17:42] you get that great dad energy. That's so cool. Don Ricky Sena at your feet wide when you speak [00:17:51] because Daddy got that presence steady.
Jesse Pujji: That is cool.
Suno: In your chest with the [00:18:00] promises you keep energy. That's the legacy. Yeah. Jesse in the building, St. Louis in the son, three kids look [00:18:09] up. 'cause you show him how it's done on the court with Ricky when he's swinging that. Ace at the spelling bead table. Keeping, still giving space. Serena with the sparkle [00:18:18] Diamonds in the go.
Dreams you creativity. Her magic curse schemes, baby Mila with the tiny hands big, you hold
Andrew Warner: it to your heart. So good. Try another [00:18:27] one. The one below it, not the distracted. That's the rarest kind of flex. You choose your, I wonder why it's doing piano. And then the hip hop. How do I [00:18:36] download right here? A little lower.
Yeah, there you go. Oh.
Suno: You give that great [00:18:45] dad energy, love on repeat, Ricky Serena. Little atrophy wide [00:18:54] because daddy got that presence steady. You never we great dad. Energy, love. So.[00:19:03]
Yeah, Jesse in the building, St. Louis [00:19:12] in the sun. Three kids look up 'cause you show him how it's done on the court with Ricky when he's swinging at Ace, at the spelling bee table keeping, [00:19:21] still giving space. Serena with the sparkle.
That's
Jesse Pujji: so cool. It's so good and [00:19:30]
Andrew Warner: I can't believe it. And now you know
Jesse Pujji: why it's, I mean,
Andrew Warner: you didn't even give it any information. You said Cha g pt. Well,
Jesse Pujji: no. What's interesting is he, this actually is a really interesting thing if you talk to Adam about this. Mm-hmm. [00:19:39] And this is like the next stage of ai and I'm trying to, like, there, there's a really good article by Brian Balfour about this [00:19:48] distribution trend that we're thinking about, you know, doubling down on at Gateway X, which is.
It's this idea that the chat, GBT and these platforms will become ways to [00:19:57] get distribution. And he, he, this article you should read, it's a long read, but it's a really good read about how the, you know, historically the platforms have, first they [00:20:06] open up and they bring everybody in, then they close down, then they start taking, extracting money from people and taking it a toll.
And one of the points they make that's really [00:20:15] critical about chat, GBT and we just showed it actually kind of accidentally is. The concept of memory. Mm-hmm. And how that's gonna, like, I don't wanna use Claude because dude, [00:20:24] I've uploaded, you know, my coaching session transcripts from Dave, I've uploaded Right.
Like letters and essay like chat. GBT knows me extremely well. So it actually came up, [00:20:33] it somehow knows Ricky plays tennis, it knows Mila loves berries. Like it is really specific, like it has, it knows all the things that said were very, very accurate. [00:20:42]
Andrew Warner: That is a form of lock-in that Gemini does not have. Uh,
Jesse Pujji: well, it's, that's gonna be, you know, he talks about you gotta figure out what the mode is and in [00:20:51] that case, like, um, yeah, that's super cool.
But yeah, you have to know what the mode is. And in this case, memory will be a big part of the moat, I think, for, for [00:21:00] AI companies.
Andrew Warner: I think so. And then I think if they also have the browser, they get you, and then Google has an opportunity too, but without the, the [00:21:09] browser has everything. I, I'm now using chat, GT's browser as my main browser.
They're aware of what I've done online in the past.
Jesse Pujji: Well, that's, I mean, imagine like what [00:21:18] it does for ad tech and that kind of thing. Like now you're, you go to a webpage. Mm-hmm. Right, right. Your webpage should look very different than my [00:21:27] webpage. I go to the webpage in the browser and it's like, oh, well, he knows it's Jesse.
Here's a suggestion for Mila, Jesse, and for your webpage. It's, you have sons and I have two daughters, and, and it just [00:21:36] knows that about us fundamentally.
Andrew Warner: And it knows more about me than Facebook knows because I've uploaded even like psychological diagnoses, not for myself. That's [00:21:45] right, that's right. For family, that's for sure.
I sound, explain what the teacher's telling me over here. Uh, look at this. I went into the [00:21:54] browser. I said to chat GPT based on my browser. What do you know about me? You're producing and editing content constantly. Beehive posts, Google [00:22:03] Docs, Jesse's content plan sheets for LinkedIn lists, notion pages with drafts, clips on drive.
You're analyzing interviews and meetings daily. [00:22:12] You're scanning the startup creator ecosystem, tech meme, wall Street Journal deals, Jesse's threads. Uh, you're tracking individual people. [00:22:21] Intensely. Dan, who I'm gonna meet with next month is so good.
Yeah. All the stuff that I [00:22:30] think people worry about with, uh, privacy is in, I get the fear. I'm also concerned about it, but man, it's the superpower too. I don't, let's
Jesse Pujji: talk about that actually. 'cause I don't think I've [00:22:39] ever spoken about this in public and out loud. I don't understand people's fear about privacy.
There's only one argument that makes sense to me, which I'll tell you in a second, but the rest of them all make [00:22:48] no sense to me. You know what I say to people who worry about privacy? Mm-hmm. You're not that important. Because we live in our own heads. We're like, oh my God. People are gonna [00:22:57] take, like, nobody cares.
Like, there's actually two, two arguments I can listen to, which I'll tell you in a second. I just thought of a good second one.
Andrew Warner: Okay.
Jesse Pujji: [00:23:06] But, but why, what's, what's the, why do you care about privacy, Andrew? What, what are you afraid of?
Andrew Warner: Um, there are a few things that I'm afraid [00:23:15] of. One is when I lived in San Francisco, maybe you experienced this.
How many founders did I, did I talk with? Who would go and look at other [00:23:24] people's? Uh, content because they had like, what is it called? God mode on whatever platform they had or a friend's platform and they could go and look into it. And I [00:23:33] think you are within that world where someone could say, lemme go and take a look at what Jesse's doing.
And if it's not the person whose app you signed up with, maybe email app you signed up for Superhuman, you're good. Maybe [00:23:42] a while back you signed up for some other email app and you forgot about it and it was sold to someone who is unscrupulous and that kind of thing worries me for sure. [00:23:51] There are like,
Jesse Pujji: that's security, right?
I mean, you're worried about security in some sense. That's a,
Andrew Warner: that's an issue, but there was
Jesse Pujji: security then are you, are you worried anymore? Because that's how the [00:24:00] argument most people make with Facebook and other, they, they talk about like how it's, it's creepy and I don't care
Andrew Warner: about the creepy part. I care about more of the, the [00:24:09] direct hit and then I care about being judged based on stuff that I didn't give you to judge me on.
Jesse Pujji: Hmm.
Andrew Warner: You know, like, are you afraid
Jesse Pujji: that that gets made public or are you afraid that just [00:24:18] some person knows something about you that feels personal? No, that's more like
Andrew Warner: private. So for example, um, I've uploaded some of your posts to LinkedIn. When I then go back and I ask [00:24:27] it questions as we were like editing some of your LinkedIn posts.
And then I go back and I ask chat GPT for something and it goes, it assumes that I'm [00:24:36] Jesse now. And that's like a bad assumption that gives me bad outcome. Right now they are not handling my insurance decision, my flights and all that. This kind of [00:24:45] like bad mixing things up or frankly using some kind of psychological diagnosis that I sent because, and I said under, based on this, tell me what [00:24:54] you think about me.
Instead of saying, based on this, tell me what you think about my brother who asked me to a, to give him some feedback on his life. That's the kind of thing that I worry about,
Jesse Pujji: right? I mean, I specify now [00:25:03] when I'm asking on behalf of somebody else. That's a good 'cause. I don't want it making that mistake.
I'm like, my wife, can you help me? I'm trying to help my wife with this thing. Can you do this?
Andrew Warner: That's a good now, but, but what [00:25:12] about this? I've told you that I took some of my kids' personal information. I didn't fully understand it. Doctor sent some paper over, uh, the teacher sent something over. I don't fully understand it.
They don't write very well. I [00:25:21] need a summary. I upload it. They didn't give permission for their data to go up in there. Can it then be used against, against them? Like they five years [00:25:30] from now when, but your kids don't, don't, I mean, if you do it, then it's
Jesse Pujji: authorized.
Andrew Warner: No, I know, I get it. But what I mean is when they come back five years from now and they're [00:25:39] trying to get something out of a system chat, GPT based, that then has this past information on them, it's unfair.
So that's the kind of thing that I think about those [00:25:48]
Jesse Pujji: things.
Andrew Warner: Yeah.
Jesse Pujji: Yeah. I think I the, in order of most compelling, to least compelling arguments for it, the number one most compelling argument, I think. Yeah. Is if the [00:25:57] government becomes like Big Brother one day, the government actually can use it against you.
I think that's the most compelling argument. 'cause it flies in the face of like being a free country. And [00:26:06] most countries, even like India, which is democracy, they're not actually free. Like the government will basically strip you of your rights. And that's something I'm very sensitive [00:26:15] to. Did you know what, by the way, I did a second degree in political science.
That's a fun fact about me. Most people dunno, that is very unexpected. I'm actually secretly very, uh, very adept in governments and politics [00:26:24] and stuff. You do, do not
Andrew Warner: love politics. So I'm surprised. I hate
Jesse Pujji: politics, but I, I like, I actually like the philosophical part. Like, I like thinking about how it affects the world and, [00:26:33] and so privacy, you know, as a quick sidebar, you know, uh, one of the most important rights that we all have is due process.
Mm-hmm. [00:26:42] And you don't think about due process until like you need to. 'cause it's like, well, everyone in the cover, like when, when Trump, earlier this year or last year was sending off [00:26:51] people, the fact that they, like someone could go to court on their behalf and challenge it. If you don't have that, the government basically runs everything.
Mm-hmm. Like just doesn't matter. Right. So anyway, if that's a sidebar, but [00:27:00] so due one argument, the second argument you were kind of getting to, I think could be like discrimination.
Andrew Warner: Mm-hmm.
Jesse Pujji: So can you use something against me that you're not [00:27:09] supposed to know?
Andrew Warner: Yes.
Jesse Pujji: Um, and I think that's like another potential for companies or other people to use something against you.
Um, I forgot the third [00:27:18] one that I thought, I think is reasonable, but in general, man, I think people way over worry about privacy. And, and by the way, I was, I, I've spoken publicly about this. I'm like, if, if [00:27:27] people cared as much about privacy as the government pretends they do, or like the, the EU pretends they do, how many times in your life have you gone to a website where that stupid [00:27:36] popup comes up and said, no, no, you can't.
I, I don't accept.
Andrew Warner: Whenever I have the patience, I do. But there's so many times when I then come back and [00:27:45] undo it, and then you see someone like Adam Robinson and I say to Adam, how is it that your site, I forget what it's called, can tell me the email addresses and the [00:27:54] LinkedIn profiles of people who come onto my site and he goes.
No shyness, no hesitation. He goes, do you know how many times you go online and you fill out a form without, [00:28:03] with all your information, and then there's a cookie and we connect it all back together? That's how we do it.
Jesse Pujji: Nobody on the internet ever doesn't hit, except when they want to go use a website.
[00:28:12] Zero people do that. Nobody goes, I wanna buy this product. Oh, it's, uh, no, you can't have my cookies, which shows you consumers don't actually give a shit.
Andrew Warner: Um, and you're right. I [00:28:21] don't think they care enough. And I do think that we care more about the benefit. All right. Here's another, tell me what you think about this one.
I was listening to the audio book, careless People, such a Good, um, such a [00:28:30] good book about a woman who worked, uh, for Facebook in global policy and she was talking about how much Facebook was willing to [00:28:39] give China in exchange for getting to operate in China, including users in the US' data to get to get into China.
And so maybe in the [00:28:48] US we have whatever protection we want, but other countries and then we in the US now are using. Social media content that people have [00:28:57] posted up about the president or about the country as a reason to let them in or out or to decide how to treat them. I fly through countries all the time.
What's the, [00:29:06] what's to stop them in the future from doing something? I think we have all these, honestly, all these different crazy thoughts in our heads, but they're outweighed by the immediate benefit that [00:29:15] we get. That's right. That we get a song about Harris' dads.
Jesse Pujji: I just, I don't think anyone, I, first of all, I don't think anyone's that important.
Oh, I, I [00:29:24] remember the third argument. The third argument that I would accept is a celebrity or somebody who's got some sort of notoriety or fame and the safety of their family, [00:29:33] which I don't, again, I like, even for me, dude, I post like people who post their kids' pictures on social media and put, you know, block out the picture.
Again, I'm not hating on anyone. [00:29:42] Do what you're comfortable with the, but like, I don't think anyone's trying to get your kids and no one, I don't think anyone's trying to get my kids like. That is fair.
Andrew Warner: I, I, [00:29:51] I know what you're saying. It's not like someone's gonna go now and say, okay, Jesse's kids are now online.
I need to get Jesse, I'm gonna go and kidnap them because I saw their picture on x. [00:30:00] I'm gonna go over to the school and I'm gonna find them. Correct.
Jesse Pujji: Or like, or like, I don't think it increases. Like, dude, if they wanna jack me, they're gonna come and jack me up. You know, they wanna rob me, they're gonna come rob me.
[00:30:09] Like it doesn't seem to be maybe on the margin, but I think if you're super famous, I can understand the desire for security. Um, here's another funny, this is [00:30:18] totally a random aside. I live on this street with a bunch of, you know, you've been on my street. Yes. There's, you know, there's a bunch of three [00:30:27] to $7 million houses in, in St.
Louis. Mm-hmm. Which, like for anyone in the bay, like that's like a $20 million house. You know, our house would be 20 easily in the bay, right? Mm-hmm. [00:30:36] It's on an acre and a half whatever more. Yeah, more probably if you could find it. And our HOA, do you [00:30:45] know what our annual HOA fees are?
Andrew Warner: I can't believe you even have an HOA at a place like that.
No, I have no idea.
Jesse Pujji: They're, they're like $700. [00:30:54] Great. Okay. Which is nothing. What,
Andrew Warner: do they also have power or is it just they take money? No,
Jesse Pujji: it's just like, it's mostly like snow, snow removal. And every [00:31:03] five years they repave the road, but they're not coming over
Andrew Warner: and telling you to take down your Christmas lights because they're too.
It's not that kind of No,
Jesse Pujji: no, no. It's not, it's not like that. It's not like a, but, but in any case, [00:31:12] um, we, first of all, I was on the board and I was like, all right, we need to double this. Like, we just need more money. This thing hadn't gone up in like 20 years. Mm-hmm. I'm like, we need to raise this. [00:31:21] And first of all, 40% of people voted against it.
Andrew Warner: Okay.
Jesse Pujji: And I'm like, what the hell? Like, who are these multimillionaires and why are they so against an additional [00:31:30] $800 a year? It was so bizarre to me. And then. Someone on our house's street got robbed by one of these [00:31:39] Chilean, uh, things came into the second floor, robbed it, and it, you know, again, I have kids, I have little kids.
A lot of the people are older on my street, but I'm like, Hey guys, [00:31:48] like, you know, I did the math. I'm like, there's 20 houses, average houses is 4 million bucks. We got $80 million worth of property. Literally just in this [00:31:57] little enclave. Like I think we should do a special, uh, approval for $50,000 or a hundred thousand dollars.
I forgot what the number was, but it's something like that [00:32:06] to get proper, like have a security guard that checks their thing out to get the flock camera to do all these different things. Dude, people, people went against [00:32:15] it. I get that.
Andrew Warner: Now Jesse might. What do you mean? Jesse might have a flock. I don't even know what a flock camera is, but Jesse's gonna have a flock camera on my [00:32:24] neighborhood.
Now you got security. At what point are they gonna be overbearing? I gotta manage it. Can't I just pay for my own security? You pay for your own [00:32:33] security and just beef it up.
Jesse Pujji: I just don't. Why would we as a neighborhood, not be willing to spend five, $10,000? It's just, it's just, to me, [00:32:42] again, people are just very irrational.
Then it's like, oh no, but you can't have my information online. Because that's really, oh, you know another funny one about this. Yeah. You, you know, who's, your information is [00:32:51] way more susceptible for than online. Yes. I'm gonna say this.
Andrew Warner: Credit card companies
Jesse Pujji: direct mail. Well, yeah, it's direct. Direct [00:33:00] mail is much scammier than the internet ever has been.
Which is why when you move into a new house or you all of a sudden, all these people somehow can reach you because that is a much shader [00:33:09] industry than, than the internet.
Andrew Warner: You know what, when I was a kid, I was like, obsessive about this stuff and I would create like. Suites for my house. So if I'd give someone an address for anything, [00:33:18] there would always be a suite number and a suite number.
Actually, you could put a code with actual thing, right? I gave it to whatever Jesse and I would see it randomly pop up in places that you [00:33:27] wouldn't have expected. And obviously now things have gotten even better. Alright? I'm willing to let go of my, um, I'm willing to let go of my, my security and I do it on a regular basis [00:33:36] and I completely accept it.
Uh. Let's talk a little bit about this. You know what, you don't want me to talk about this, but there's a [00:33:45] company in St. Louis that's worth how much money can we save? What the money, what the amount of money is. I gotta go,
Jesse Pujji: Andrew.
Andrew Warner: You do? I do. Okay. Yeah. What the hell? This is [00:33:54] like a 15 minute touch and go.
Alright, we'll end it here then. See you. Bye. Good times. See you.
Bye.