Engineering Success | A NTP Podcast

John Klinkenberg, Principal Industrial Designer at The Melt, fell into industrial design after his mum applied for him to study it at the University of Newcastle. John shares his career path working across various companies and industries, eventually leading him to his current role at the Melt, where he collaborates with startups to solve hardware challenges. John discusses the unique embedded model of the Melt, which allows for closer collaboration with businesses during the design process, resulting in quicker decision-making and better outcomes. 

In this episode, you’ll hear John discuss the value of design awards, such as Good Design Australia, and the significance of understanding customer needs and maintaining clarity in problem-solving for successful product development. He shares insights on the challenges startups face, particularly regarding funding and staffing, and emphasises the importance of building a solid team with complementary skills. Tune in to hear why John thinks sketching and effective communication skills are essential for young designers.

Creators and Guests

Host
Melinda Sietsma
Senior Engineering Recruiter

What is Engineering Success | A NTP Podcast?

Welcome to Engineering Success! This NTP podcast features some of the brightest engineering and manufacturing minds in the Hunter region and beyond. Join us for insightful conversations with the folks behind the region's most exciting projects.

We'll dive into their career stories, the challenges they've faced, and the awesome tech they're working on. Whether you're in the industry or just curious, Engineering Success will give you a peek into the vibrant world of local engineering and manufacturing. Tune in and get inspired!

Speaker 1:

If I was to say, what's a skill that a young designer should get good at? Sketching number one.

Speaker 2:

Yep.

Speaker 1:

And learn to be a good able communicator verbally and maybe not so much through my emails, it's still pretty rubbish, but ChatGPT is here now, so we don't need to worry about that anymore. But I'm

Speaker 2:

just checking. Welcome to Engineering Success Podcast. My name is Mel Seitsma, and I'm the senior engineering consultant here at the NewyTechPeople team. Today, I had the pleasure of being joined by John Klinkenberg.

Speaker 1:

Afternoon.

Speaker 2:

John is a principal industrial designer with the Melt. Welcome, John.

Speaker 1:

Thank you very much, Mel. Thanks for having us.

Speaker 2:

You're welcome.

Speaker 1:

Really appreciate the opportunity to have a chat this afternoon.

Speaker 2:

Painting hear your story.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I'll hopefully, I can deliver it in a in a logical and, way that is exciting and, everyone can maybe grab something from it.

Speaker 2:

I'm sure we will. To get us started, just like to learn a little bit more about your career today and, I guess, how you've decided the path that you've went on to become an industrial designer?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So it wasn't, wasn't straightforward. I can tell you that much. When I finished school, I was had little idea as to what I wanted to do and made the choice to stay in my hometown of Port Macquarie for some years. And did, I guess, what a lot of people do in Port Macquarie and worked a retail job and enjoyed what is a a very, beautiful place to live.

Speaker 1:

But at some point, I think it became apparent that, as I grew older, I wanted to do something that was away from my hometown. So I'd sold everything I owned and moved to Canada for a year. And, I was a a bicycle mechanic at the time, so I worked worked there as a a mechanic, got an opportunity to work on a women's World Cup, mountain bike team for a period. Then when I came back, I had a friend who did industrial design, and my mom had, she'd applied for me while I was away, got in, and, that was the next chapter. It was four years of industrial design at Newcastle University.

Speaker 2:

Did your mom apply without you knowing, or were you in on it?

Speaker 1:

It was pretty thin on the ground with, like, organization and detail, but it was probably my mate, Levi, who was doing industrial design who I rode with that in Port Macquarie who really sort of sparked that. What is this course that you do where you figure out how things operate, work, and and are made? So it sort of really sparked. Cycling drove that need or wanting to know how how it is, that everything we use, how does it become created. So Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I think it sort of sucked me in, and then four years later, graduated. And, yeah, I guess now I'm at twenty years past that point

Speaker 2:

Oh.

Speaker 1:

Which is, actually pretty unbelievable, you know, I think about it.

Speaker 2:

Flies.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. It does.

Speaker 2:

And can you share with us maybe some of the companies that you've worked for throughout your career so far?

Speaker 1:

Yes. I've been, like, very blessed and fortunate to be able to remain most of my probably last twenty years in the Hunter Region. I didn't know this was gonna be the place I would end up, but marriage, kids, and I guess building a a home here sort of really solidified that fact. But so I've worked for companies, like RPC Technologies. They do predominantly fiberglass manufacture for the rail, industry and other industries now, I think, what I can gather.

Speaker 1:

Bradkin Engineering did four years of shop fitting, working for a company that, is called Imagine Design. That was a really exciting time. I've worked for Rhino Rack, the automotive accessories company in Sydney. I had to pull a lot of strings to make that one happen. And that was probably really good because it set me up for the next phases of my life, which was a couple of years working for a local consultancy called Design Anthology.

Speaker 1:

I've worked for Orica. I've worked for Bali Group. Worked for obviously, Fit The Melt, who I'm currently, working with. And and The Melt has really allowed me to work with such a diverse range of, different businesses. So everything from mining safety to the current company that I'm really embedded in, which is Allegro Energy.

Speaker 1:

They're specifically focused on, clean energy capture, and how to then disseminate that into the grid in a, I guess, innovative and also scalable way, which has been really that's probably been one of the most technical projects I've worked on so far, which is really nice to be able to lean on twenty years of experience and all of the facets of design, manufacturing, and they've all come together to sort of help to, I guess, make me feel confident that I've, in most cases, got the answers to progress the design forward. Collaboratively, though, also, we're working with a team of what is now 25 people. So it's not not all me.

Speaker 2:

Must be pretty exciting to be working with some new technologies and concepts.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Well, sort of, yeah, shifting the needle on what's happening locally as well, which is good. Because I think, a lot of people, when you look into the hunter as a general place to to to build things, people are surprised to find out that there's cutting edge, technological products being made in our backyard, so to speak. Yep. So which is good, really exciting for myself.

Speaker 1:

And you're also rubbing shoulders with people who are really driven and also very passionate about seeing where we're going next, especially in that energy transfer stage.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. It's a cool time in that Yeah. Is very industry. Fun. As far as industrial design, probably not as heard of or as common, with some of the other more common designs, like being a mechanical designer?

Speaker 2:

How do how does it vary?

Speaker 1:

You know, I think it's, it's more of a jack of all trades, master of none style role. And I don't mean to say that in a derogatory way to all industrial designers because I know one of our biggest skills is being able to research, investigate one of the the key features of industrial design, I think, is that human centered design philosophy, looking at how the product and humans interact with each other. In the hunter, obviously, it's there's a lot of lot of heavy industry, where, obviously, from those names that I sort of mentioned before, to stay local, you've got to re I guess, reevaluate what your interpretation of industrial design is. Industrial design to or product design to most people would be, like, looking at an Apple product or looking at, say, an automotive, accessory or a car or all like, these products that, cameras that are looking right at us right now, they're they're all really great examples of industrial design that takes into consideration not only a brief of what it needs to be, but also how do you make it how do you make it at scale, how do you make it to a budget, how do you make it so it's cost competitive, and people are gonna want want it, which is obviously, is there a market for it?

Speaker 1:

So it's like you're aligned well with engineering, you're aligned with marketing, you're aligned with graphics. It's a real embodiment of a lot of different, say, facets of a product, and they all come together, and the industrial designer sort of works in between all of those different, faceted areas to sort of bring together something that people ultimately are gonna wanna use. And in the case of, say, Allegro, people are gonna wanna use, it's gonna work, and it's going to allow, I guess, positive change. And that's, I think, design really amounts to a change in the way that us as humans, our world is bettered by the fact that so much thought has gone into whatever that thing the designer's working on. So industrial design's really it's a hard one to nail down.

Speaker 1:

A lot of people are still I I get a bit of a high when someone's like, oh, industrial designer, I know exactly what you do. It's like, oh, thank god. But rubbing shoulders with designers all the time, you kind of you feel like you're amongst your people and you everyone sort of empathizes and understands, but then you go out into the greater world, and it's like people really just don't care too much on how their products were made and where they came from. I think good design is almost, it's almost hidden. Like, a person doesn't understand that it's good, but they realize it's so easy to use, and then by definition, it's been designed well Yeah.

Speaker 1:

In most cases. So good design's kind of like hidden and in behind the scenes, but people take it for granted, I think.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. They only notice the bad designs.

Speaker 1:

Well and that's true. So, hopefully, you probably you obviously get a few of those through the course of your career, and I'm sure there's probably a stinker out there that I've worked on. But, yeah, I guess for the most part, it it's a process. The design process is if you go by the steps, like, 90% of the time, you should get close to the mark, I reckon.

Speaker 2:

So you mentioned earlier about the Melt. Could you tell us a little bit more about them and, I guess, their kinda core mission behind what they do?

Speaker 1:

So firstly, I I felt really lucky to be able to get my role at the Melt. It was kind of a unique, a unique role for the hunter. And the Melt really embodies, I guess, everything there is to do with business support, and it's like a, the Melt operates as a wraparound solution to support small to SME style businesses that are, have a hardware problem that they would like to solve. So where software is something that there's a lot of, a lot of people out there doing support for software type businesses, hardware had sort of seen, I guess, because it is hard typically to develop a product. Hardware needs a specific set of skills, I guess, some of what I have.

Speaker 1:

It needs money. It needs, in a lot of cases, it's capital, and it needs, I guess, a bit of an understanding of how things are made, or not a bit, a lot of an understanding of how things are made. To make things at scale too is different to making things at small quantities, so it's sort of your prototype to sort of first production run type quantities. So the Melt really works, hand in glove with these businesses to be able to give, I guess, assistance in areas where you'd need to, first and foremost, employ a designer. So there's a capital expense straight up that potentially you'd need to make sure you've got the money for.

Speaker 1:

So we work with multiple different and have worked with multiple different businesses to to help, I guess, walk side by side with them in that r and d process. With the r and d process, there's a lot of, obviously, different sort of stages that you need to go through, from the inception of the idea through to first prototyping and then to, I guess, what would be, say, smaller to medium production runs. So there's a lot of things where you can fall over and waste a lot of money, and the Melt sort of helps to you get a as I said, the wraparound solution to be able to have all parts of that process covered by people who have got experience. So the founders can concentrate on learning how to do business, doing business development, focusing on their core markets, and then in the background, collaboratively with their staff, be working to develop whatever this widget is that they, that they have the idea for that's in a view or that is potentially gonna be a game changer or a market disruptor. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So, a good example of that is SafeGauge, who are another local success, company. Yep. When I first started with them, they had a, it was a good operational MVP, and probably beyond that, they already had some in field. But then what we worked on is developing new product, but also then v twoing, v threeing their existing product, which was a pressure sensing transducer. Just to basically, I guess, make that as that next version that potentially could then go into hundreds, thousands of, manufactured items to go out to, I guess, as you expect, you're gonna scale and have new clients.

Speaker 1:

So Yeah. Get in early, get a new product out there before you get too many of your sort of first version out there, and then you need to sort of backtrack and cover out any reworks or anything that needs to be done. So that was, I worked hand hand in hand with their industrial designer, who I'm actually really good friends with now as well. And the two of us helped, each other to collaboratively because I don't have all the answers. All I've got is, I guess, my experience.

Speaker 1:

We worked really, really well together to, to come up with, something that's won awards, which was their DI series, measuring gauge, which measures down to like point o one or something of a millimeter, so it's quite accurate. But that was something which was quite innovative in the mining, technological or IoT mining space. So it that was a, I think, a really, really cool project to work on as well, but a good example of what the Melt, I guess, offered and seeing that happen in a in a successful manner. But as far as the Melt goes, there's three founders. Each of those founders has specific skills that are really complementary, and then myself yeah.

Speaker 1:

So my role then is an industrial designer. I can work with the founder while the other three owners of the mill, they've got their own specific roles that can really help to work in the business, the, finance side of things, and the engineering side of things, everywhere from the electrical side to, things like standardization, like meeting Australian standards and stuff like that, which I sort of come in on as well. And then we've got the extension to the Melt, which is the Melt Manufacturing Centre out at Musselbrook, which then, another big cost and capital expense to making something is materials and the the manufacturing know how. So Ian Yule, up at the Musselbrook Manufacturing Center, he's got a lot of experience, and there's also a a suite of tools up there from CNC to layers to electrical welding. So there's this real ability to, at a really reduced cost price, make those sort of first prototypes and, test test mules and and those types of things which you need to go through the process of to ensure that your product's fit for doing it.

Speaker 1:

It's fit for purpose and ready for manner like mass manufacture.

Speaker 2:

Must be really cool, though, kinda working with businesses or coming up with, you know, a concept, and then you're helping them bring that to, I guess, from start up through to commercialization.

Speaker 1:

Oh, definitely. And I think that's the that's the thrill is when I remember at Rhino Rack when I used to work there, you'd see something you design come past on the top of a car holding a bike, or it was being used for its, like, intended purpose as a four wheel drive, say, accessory. And it was just amazing to to deal with the people who are the punters who love the gear. And I think, like with any client, you're getting the kick out of the idea you had coming to fruition and seeing light and being as you intended in your mind's eye and also working as you'd expected, because not necessarily all all ideas end up reaching that stage. So being able to help and work with them collaboratively to deliver on the brief is is a really, fulfilling, and rewarding process.

Speaker 1:

And I think that's why I really enjoy design is that not only are you sort of helping fulfill a dream of theirs, but you're also helping fulfill a need of their customer, which is really the real reason they're in business at the end of the day.

Speaker 2:

And so as far as working with startups, there's obviously a few challenges that pop up along the way. What are some of the key challenges that you've seen out there?

Speaker 1:

I guess one of the key challenges that working with startups, it's always capital, is is the beginning challenge. Melt Ventures, which is also a sort of affiliated company with the Melt, it works with a lot of the Melt companies to to help to inject money at those early stages. If the business has, I guess, what's perceived to be, an idea that is revolutionary, so suitable for, for investment, that's where that process will sort of happen. And then usually, I'll probably be injected into the business and have some kind of role to help to do that development.

Speaker 2:

Mhmm.

Speaker 1:

Not in all cases. I guess there's a there's always a challenge of staffing. Like, I'm only one man and can only do so much, so it's really nice, say, with that safe gauge opportunity where, they had an industrial designer that literally started at a very similar time period to myself. That was really good on in two ways that it helped I was sort of mentoring the industrial designer, but also we were working together to solve problems, because solving problems together is always easier than trying to come up with things from a blank sheet of paper. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So the challenge is, especially the diversity of the industrial design role sometimes can be that I've never worked in this I've never played in this this space before. It's about sort of that understanding of the problem, understanding of what the customer's requirements are, and how to deliver on that using whatever this new manufacturing technique is that you that you need to use or new type of technology. I haven't done a heap in the electrical spaces or IoT, so thankfully, it's about also that working in unison, with people of other disciplines. Yeah. So that's that's really another challenge as well to to really streamline that process in how the you adopt and work together to be able to formulate one product that comes together seamlessly.

Speaker 1:

As far as startups goes, I guess it is that real multidisciplinary lots of there's so many different fields of products out there. You just can't be across them all. So it's about that research and and and beginning, I guess, understanding and being curious into what this product is, who's gonna use it, how how will I make it, what products are gonna use, how robust does it need to be, how am I gonna seal it, like, there's so many things to consider. Yeah. And it's only with experience that you can sort of hit the ground running quicker.

Speaker 1:

So sometimes it's like, I've done heaps of fabrication before, so I just I feel at home. But then you're dealing with, say, PCBs and IoT units and batteries and stuff like that, and it's sort of you gotta house it all. And sometimes yeah. It's just it's just, I guess, more experience equals a a quicker transition in in the understanding. So you can never have too much experience, really.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

As with anything.

Speaker 2:

Yep. And you spoke a little bit before about, I guess, what's unique to The Melt is how you're embedded into other businesses that you're working with. So, obviously, you spoke a lot about SafeGauge. Are there any others, like, experiences that you've had that you'd like to share with us about those inverted teams?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So at the other end of the the spectrum, I kind of really, in a way, try to use that same methodology of the embedded sort of worker nature because predominantly, consultancy is a standalone. They do that. They obviously get briefed. They go away kinda like a marketing consultancy.

Speaker 1:

They pitch the idea that they come up with and if it's and then it gets massaged, and obviously, if they're successful, they go ahead and design it. Whereas I think the embedded nature of of a designer into the business can shortcut a lot of those, but what if we did what if we did this or what if we did that? Those kind of really sort of granular decisions can be made at a really rapid pace rather than having to email or phone or whatever. So in answer to your question, I worked with the CSIRO on a project which is currently being used. I think it's tested, like, 5,000 PV solar panel units in New South Wales in a joint venture with a company called Blue Tribe.

Speaker 1:

I thought that would be an interesting, test case to maybe see if being an embedded worker within, say, a New South or in a in a federal government association would be a good fit. And it really worked well. I did everything from the design to actually ended up making the whole thing as well myself with, obviously, that they had, helped me. But it was really interesting to see just how I was working on multiple projects at that time, so I was not spending forty hours a week on it. But just how working in house was allowing decision making processes to happen at a lot more, rapid rate.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So I really felt and feel that there's a real niche for designers to be able to work with companies in the company as a as an embedded, employee to be able to, like I'm doing at the Melt, to really add value and make you feel like and make them feel like you're a part of their team, not the other not you're some kind of satellite entity that sort of comes in and out of their life in a fairly irregular, basis. So it's it's funny. You turn up, you have the coffee, the water cooler chat, you talk naturally about problems, you kind of feel like that eight hours of workday is really valuable because you're sort of spitballing ideas or coming up with solutions. And then you go home and you can do that another day with another company. So I've been blessed with Allegro that it's been a pretty continuous and, good continuity in that work, but the project's obviously a lot bigger.

Speaker 1:

There's a lot greater, I guess, amount of design decisions and and their need to scale early on sort of, really makes a design and engineering asset important, I feel. So, yeah, in answer to your question, I think that I think that like SafeGauge and CSIRO, there's a lot of value to add with that embedded, I guess, model for a for a designer or an engineer. It doesn't work in all cases, but I think it's a it's it's a I think it's got a really sort of good bones for good agile product development.

Speaker 2:

Yep. It was like the collaboration piece would happen a lot faster.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I'm a big advocate, and it's not all about me. It's it's more about the process of the people coming together to to create, I guess, something bigger than themselves Yep. Which in most cases is like products, like Allegro's, is well beyond one person's capabilities. I'm sure one person if they had unlimited timing.

Speaker 1:

But, yeah, I think it's and it's it's a joint success and then and really reveling in that, when you have your wins together, you're really celebrating. It's not just one guy standing up there telling how great he was. Yep. But, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And, obviously, your work with The Melt, I'm assuming you come across lots of, you know, business founders. What makes the strong founders stand out?

Speaker 1:

I think real clarity in what their problem they're trying to solve is. And I think in a lot of cases, that clarity usually comes from a pain point that's come from their own experiences. So that, I think, is, like, probably fundamental. So, you know, with anything, if something really bugs you and you feel you could do it a better way, and it's really say something that's deep and, like, close to your heart, I think that if that is something that you then try, like, try to chase as a business opportunity, you will find that your tenacity to find the solution will be high. That is definitely one real contributing asset to a a founder that is successful.

Speaker 1:

I think in a lot of cases, you'll find people are usually chasing pain points that other people haven't found a solution for. Yeah. Like, all the companies I've worked with, a lot of those cases have been that exact point, SafeGauge, Allegro. And it's good because it's like showing the people really thinking deeply about what is around them and what they're doing and how can I make the world a better place Yeah? And then actually putting it all into action and doing it.

Speaker 1:

So it's great to see places like The Melt that are helping to helping to, I guess, work with people to come up with these solutions. Yep. That's another another one of the really key aspects of design I love. It's like, you're you're really doing meaningful work.

Speaker 2:

Yep. So twenty years kinda in the industry so far

Speaker 1:

Yep.

Speaker 2:

Pivoting, I guess, across a few different industries along the way. What skills are kinda remain constant, regardless of what industry you're working in?

Speaker 1:

I think the, like, the design processes, design thinking are really important to sort of as I spoke about before, to to, to really dig deep and and and think about the problem that you're trying to solve and, going through the process like ideation, conceptualization, and then, like, detailing and then prototyping and then producing. So I think usually that's the same process that would be used or I would use throughout. Like, you don't normally jump from, like, an initial sometimes, I guess, your first idea can be your best idea, but there's a definite strategy that you would use and put in place to be able to to have, like, a fairly, well honed outcome. Testing is obviously really important. But I think through, like, through twenty years of experience, which is pretty crazy considering it feels like I left uni the other day.

Speaker 1:

But I think that if you put the if you work with the process and you use it, how it should be used, I think you'll come up with a solution that you can test and then, I guess, interrogate and and make sure that it's doing what it should do or it's working the way it should. It's fit for purpose. It's doing all the things the client's after. I reckon one of the key skills for a designer is sketching. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Hand sketching, sketch, sketch, sketch. I've always got paper near me. I've always got a pencil or a bio or something because it is, like, probably one of the key communication skills I think a designer can have. I I I see it come up on LinkedIn all the time. What's the key for a designer to have?

Speaker 1:

I think communication is key, and I think the ways designers communicate is through articulating ideas through sketching. CAD modeling's great, but if you're starting CAD, you kinda get bound by a certain set of skills, which are your ability to do the CAD process, I think hand sketching, and there's a good reason that in motor industry, all of those stylized hand sketches are the are the the first point that a car company will start at before they get to any high detailed models that have all the manufacturing, details, etcetera. If I was to say, what's a skill that a young designer should get good at? Would be sketching number one. Yep.

Speaker 1:

And learn to be a good able communicator verbally and, maybe not so much through my emails, it's still pretty rubbish, but ChatJPT is here now, so we don't need to worry about that anymore. But But you know what I mean. I think to figure out engineering problems quickly, quick hand sketch, problem solved. Yeah. And around the table, like, sketch on a whiteboard, sketch on anything that you that's not moving.

Speaker 1:

Just so you can really work through and dig down through the details and hone in on what that solution might be in a quick and, and it doesn't have to be beautiful that way. A lot of people, love a CAD that's beautiful renderings. They've also they've all got their purpose, but I think bare bones, you need to be able to probably sketch to communicate and then do CAD and two d drawings to manufacture. I think that's another skill that's sort of overlooked. And I know in our industry and design, and it's taken me a long time, twenty years in fact, for Newcastle to to sort of see designers being more than just draftsman.

Speaker 1:

But in saying that, drafting or two d drawings are a really important skill as well because it's another design language which you're talking to to manufacturers about how you would like it made and what's the intent of it when it's a finished product, and how does it all go together? How does it fit? What are the tolerances? So that's another good thing to be, I think, focused on as a designer is to be able to understand who are these people that you're along the way communicating with that you need to be able to understand what they're talking about so you can get your final result as you've sort of envisaged it in your mind's eye.

Speaker 2:

My brain's, like, wondering how many, you know, different whiteboards and things do you have around the house?

Speaker 1:

No. I just need one bit of paper and just keep throwing it in the bin and starting with the you just can't be you can't be precious with anything. So I remember at university, you'd be really precious about something you'd color in perfectly or it had to look a certain way. But now, I guess, like, there's no time to be precious. It's like, it's all we're all here to solve the problem.

Speaker 1:

If it's no good, bin, new, come up with whatever.

Speaker 2:

When you're designing, I guess, how do you say true to that original concept that you come up with versus maybe what a consumer needs?

Speaker 1:

Well, I would hope the original concepts have probably been driven by a brief. Whether the drape brief has been directed at you by a founder who's got, like, lots of market research or understanding intimately of, say, what the problem is that needs to be solved. And I guess, like, a good case in point, I think, was the iPhone. No one knew they needed a a phone that had a computer in it, and in a lot of cases, those real disruptive businesses like your Apples, for instance, they kind of predict something that we didn't know you wanted yet. So in some cases, I guess, interrogating the client to find exactly what they want isn't always the answer for that breakthrough product.

Speaker 1:

But I think in a lot of cases, having an understanding of the end user, what it is that they need or how would they use it, is very important information to have fed back into the way that the product is designed. It doesn't take much to realize when you use a product that's had no thought behind it that it's either clunky to use or it's got details on it that you just think, well, why would they have designed it like that? And I think as many times as you can design the product for how you would like to use it, you need to ensure that the targeted user is either testing or using the prototype. I think the brief ultimately gives you an understanding of where you need to start, but then through that design process and the phases, you get to a point where you've got something physical which you can then use to to test form factors, how does it the ergonomics, how is it perceived to be used, but how are they actually using it. And then from that, you're deducing where do I make iterative change.

Speaker 1:

And through that, design is about iterative stages that allow you to hone in on what that final, I guess, best use case or best end use case is, and how does it solve that end user's problem in the most valuable way. You can only do that through taking the brief, and then, I guess, through the process of design, coming up with a solution that then can be tested and used, because that's where you probably get a lot of your, information to make changes sort of in a way that you're getting close to that final outcome. Yep. And even final outcomes aren't the final solution. Like, there's nothing new under the sun.

Speaker 1:

There's always a another new v version of it. Like, as I say, it is like there's always the six bladed razor that no one knew they needed. It's it's just about looking at the market and and saying, where's the gap? How can I fill it with a product that's gonna better the end user?

Speaker 2:

Always wonder when we're gonna see, like, the 20 blade razor.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. That's my favorite example of if you if you can't pick up a new design, just chuck an extra blade in there.

Speaker 2:

Along the way, has there been, like, a hard lesson that in hindsight has probably been one of your better learnings?

Speaker 1:

Oh, that's a good question. They've all been, like, perfect successes. No. I'm kidding. I'm joking.

Speaker 1:

I think for me, like the early days of design, you're obviously in any job, you're obviously the you're not the lowest person, but you're the most inexperienced. And I think with inexperienced, obviously, becomes there's a lot of a a challenge there to make, like, definitive decisions. And I feel that the more experience you get, that decision making happens easier with more authority. So I think I found it really hard in my initial stages where you were sort of you didn't know the answer. You say you do all the right things, but then find out that you still didn't quite get there.

Speaker 1:

But that's why I guess there's a tiered nature to design offices or engineering faculties and businesses. It's it's about knowing where your your skills lie, and I guess as a a new, person in a business, you're really there as a sponge to soak up from from all of the more experienced individuals. Whether or not in any every case they were always as forthcoming with that information, I I don't really wanna say, but I think I think from those learnings though, I feel that looking at it from the flip side now, I really love to try and instil information into younger guys that are coming through because you're not born with the knowledge. And sometimes when you're a little bit sort of deer in the headlights, it's hard to sort of put your hand up and say, look, I just don't know. So I think the initial stages were the unknowns to try and find out and come up with, like, I don't know, in your mind when you leave uni, you're gonna do all this amazing stuff, but then you find out you're doing two d drawings all day, or you're doing something that you didn't feel was gonna be the first thing you'd be doing.

Speaker 1:

I think it's always a challenge. I've had lots of different jobs. The challenge is every time you start a new job in a new field that you can get up to speed quick enough, be it the the CAD program or the new type of product. I remember what I so my transition was shopfitting to Bradkin Engineering designing rail wagons. And I remember one of the more senior managers said to the guy who hired me, so what are we gonna do?

Speaker 1:

Start designing kitchens here now. And that just got back to me. I can't remember how, but it was an interesting it made me really think, like, how the hell am I gonna do this? But then after five years, it was like second nature. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So I think it's about the more times you get the opportunity to do diverse things, the better you become at, being, not agile, but adaptive to the change. So and I think that's sort of also probably where I've sort of fallen in with the Melt is that ability to be adaptive because the Melt doesn't go, okay, John, who do you work well with as a business? Okay. We'll invest in them. It's not like that.

Speaker 1:

I've got to work obviously with whoever's making the decisions on whatever businesses that we're gonna work in line with. So for me, then that makes my job easier now because I've had more experience with that adaptivity to different technologies or businesses or products. So yeah. I think a lot of that stuff, although difficult in the beginning, becomes better and easier as you have a bit more experience.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And I guess you just touched on my next question a little bit, I guess, with those career pivots. Have they been more intentional when you've kind of been working in a place and looking at that next career step, or is it just kinda organically happened?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I think my whole life's been pretty organic as far as as my career goes. I feel incredibly lucky because whenever there has been, like, a what I thought was gonna be a gap, it always got filled with something else. But I think it's about being able to your expectations, you need to be able to manage them in a way that if I can't work in design, I can go fix bikes again. And it's about knowing that, okay, I've a responsibility, I've got bills like every other person on the face of this earth.

Speaker 1:

It's not always about I've got to do exactly what I need to do, but I can fill that gap, and then I can be also then proactively looking for something in the background. So I've been very redundant twice, and they were actually the best times that allowed me to then have opportunities. I probably would never have searched out afterwards, so Rhino Rack became one of those pivotal changes in my career where it was like the consumer product job in an industry that I like, I love cars, motorbikes, bicycles, like, all those things that are mechanical, like, they really get me going. So to work in an industry where you're dealing with, like, high end four wheel drives and doing fit outs and custom stuff, it was really cool. So that was one of the times where it's like, get my redundant, end up in a better spot.

Speaker 1:

So and someone gives you money for it, so it's even better. Yeah. It's about how you look at your glass. If you're looking at it half full or half empty. So I try to look at it always pretty much on the more side of full than than empty.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Which I think then with that mindset allows you to sort of be more able to see opportunities as they arise.

Speaker 2:

Yep. Outside of work, you also, I guess, got some other cool interests. One of those, you're involved in the Good Design Australia Awards. Mhmm. Could you share with us a little bit more about those awards?

Speaker 1:

So Good Design Australia actually came out of Standards Australia, and I think it's it's been going for sixty something years. Don't quite know the exact amount. I think it's sixty five maybe. The award process is about acknowledging, like, exceptional design regionally, but also more broadly, like, globally. So the thing with design is is that good design is in so impactful with so many people.

Speaker 1:

I think that why not celebrate it? And I think the thing that, so Brandon Gein from Good Australia in Australia, he's only recently just stepped down as the, general manager. He is a very big guy. He's actually studied locally here in Newcastle, and his ties to Newcastle, are interesting because that's sort of what then drew me into wanting to know more about how I could maybe have a a chance to experience, be a part of, even give some kind of small, tiny, I guess, bit of help. And I think, like, I love people.

Speaker 1:

I love talking. I love seeing and hearing about other people's op like, experiences, and I think being able to sort of rub shoulders with other peers that are in industry, but also, like, high level players where they're really experienced in Australian design has been, beyond my wildest dreams, to be honest. Yeah. And it all came about from just asking one question at an awards night. Hey, Brandon.

Speaker 1:

Do you reckon there's a chance I could get in contact with you about what the judging process involves? I'm from the Hunter Region. I know you've studied here and you've your sort of roots, started from here in design. And, anyway, one thing led to another, a few emails later. And in 2023, I had my first opportunity to judge one of the categories with a couple of other designers, which was really awesome.

Speaker 1:

It's just a bit of an insight into what other people are doing, what what are the cool things that people are working on on locally. Yeah. Hunter is really underrepresented when it comes to design and professionals, I guess, in the broader, like, nation of Australia. So it was really cool to be able to say, hey, I'm from Newcastle, well, the Hunter, and I've had the opportunity to be a part of the process. So anyway, I've done it again this year as well, which has been really good.

Speaker 2:

How many people do they have, like, going through the process?

Speaker 1:

Oh, thousands of entries. Yep. Yep. Yeah. There's there's a lot.

Speaker 1:

Everything from, like, your Samsungs and Hyundai's through to individuals who have come up with great ideas. Yeah. So the process is you get a green tick if it's deemed to have the attributes of good design. Is design impactful, sustainability is something that's, that's obviously thought about as well. And I I guess the critique, that's made by the good design judges is it really sort of interrogates the design to see if it's fit for purpose and it's and it's meaningful in doing its intended purpose.

Speaker 1:

But is it doing it at a level that's exemplary? To be honored with, I guess, a good design award is probably most designers' idea of success. Yeah. It definitely goes a long way to make you feel validated. But I think at the end of the day too, feel like that's just a snapshot.

Speaker 1:

There's so many people doing amazing things that are either embargoed and and can't say anything about what they're working on, or there's no capital to put into because the award process costs money. Yeah. And that's where I guess the 100 manufacturing awards is a nice little add on as well because it allows you to to locally be recognised in a way that, you normally wouldn't at that more national level.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And I guess on the Hunter Manufacturing Awards, you guys were successful last year in winning a collaboration award.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. That was awesome. Yeah. And a real validation. I think the collaboration, which was the award we won, was really good because it was kind of a unique collaboration where normally, the the collaboration award gets won by, say, a business and a third party provider or something like that.

Speaker 1:

Whereas this was really like a a collaborative like, a real collaborative effort where it's not like we're just supplying you with something that you've used. We're giving you know how. We're embedded. We're working with you like I'm one of the the team, and the rest of the Melt is also operating in that manner. You're using the Melt Manufacturing Centre at Musselbrook to actually make products which are being utilised in the product that I'm designing.

Speaker 1:

So it was something that was, I think like, I remember how driving one day thinking, we are doing something really uniquely different here. I think the collaboration should be like Melt Panaveli Melt Operations and and Allegro. And I and I think then upon fleshing that out in the actual application, it sort of solidified that the idea had some some merit, and I guess winning it then obviously validated that.

Speaker 2:

So that award was the MELT, Allegro, and Musselbrook Council? Yes. Yep.

Speaker 1:

That's exactly right. So and then from that, I had an idea one night that I should put forward to design the trophies, which was, I think Jackie Dahlia sort of mentioned at one of the opening events that she was opening it up because it was the twentieth anniversary that whoever wanted to apply and put forward a concept. So I was like, oh, I'm a designer, I could do So anyway, I did that, and, yeah, and that design was successful, thankfully. So I I think the design itself was, like, a bit more unique because I wanted something that told a bit of a story. So I met up with a really good design friend of mine.

Speaker 1:

We had beers, good ideas ensued, and then and then I sort of came up with this idea of a timeline of the trophy telling this story from really basic sort of simple manufacturing techniques, which was sort of around maybe 50 ago, and this sort of, like, stepping through into more, advanced manufacturing, which which was the three d printed element that was on the spine Yeah. Of the trophy. Yeah. They bought it. So, anyway, we ended up being successful there.

Speaker 1:

So we got the next three years of designing HMA Awards, which is also nice. So I get a few more of my of our products out there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Cool.

Speaker 1:

And I think they look alright. They're pretty heavy, but

Speaker 2:

I really like them.

Speaker 1:

Solid and and meaningful.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And I guess for other businesses, you know, receiving awards, whether it's, you know, good design or whether it's HMA, you know, what do you think are the main benefits out there for people going through that process?

Speaker 1:

Well, I think first and foremost, the application process really helps to solidify your understanding of what it is that you've done. When I did the applications for Allegro for Good Design this year, it really made me sort of think, hang on. I know more about this micro emulsion flow battery than I think I gave myself credit for. But I think it it's it's also if you're doing it as a team, it's a nice way to get together and to collectively celebrating what you've done, whether or not you're successful or not. I think it's nice to be able put down on paper, what it is that you're proud of.

Speaker 1:

Like, why is it that you did it? Like, the outcome, is it something that you're proud like, obviously, you are proud because you're putting in an application, but, like, why are you proud about it? I think it gives everyone buy in to be able to add value to the application, which is nice. But I think ultimately, at the end of the day, when and if you are successful, it is real validation amongst your peers, but it's also internal validation to say, yeah, you know what? Job well done.

Speaker 1:

But don't sit in it too long. Go do the next good thing. You know? It's sort of it's only a point in time. I think that what it shows is whatever you're doing is the right thing, and, hopefully, you can continue to do it at that level or even higher for your for your next projects.

Speaker 2:

Cool.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I don't think it's an award that you should just go, okay, now I'm awesome, and walk away and tell everyone about it. I think it's just more internalise, be happy in the fact that you're doing an okay job, and then go get it done again.

Speaker 2:

Yep. So as far as, I guess, the sectors you're working in at the moment, if you could give one piece of advice to someone perhaps in the renewables risk sector or advanced manufacturing, what might that advice be?

Speaker 1:

Oh, jeez. It's a good feeling like you're really hanging off my actual opinion on stuff. Well, I guess, yeah, align yourself with, other individuals who would be having mutually beneficial skills to help you just sort of achieve your end goal. I guess looking at the way the Melt and Allegro, for instance, have operated. Allegro obviously had the idea, they had the micro emulsion, it didn't have a battery.

Speaker 1:

The Melt had the skills and the business acumen and the ability to inject that experience into into Allegro and then mutually work together to get to where they are now. So I think the really important thing would be is, you know, I guess find an alignment there that could be mutually beneficial to help to achieve your end goals. Money always goes a long way, so find a way of getting more of that, be it governmental grants or or VC investment, because you can't do much without, unfortunately, any money unless you've inherited millions of dollars. Yeah. So I think that's important.

Speaker 1:

So you probably want to understand the strategies behind, I guess, doing all of the rounds of, I guess, money raising, etcetera, if you're gonna go down that investment pathway. Get an industrial designer, obviously, in very early. Ensure that you know what the brief is. Ensure you know what your customer wants or what the market needs. I think not being an, an authority on clean energy or, or renewables, I I can't speak exactly into that area, but I definitely feel like a good engineering and design team goes a long way for quality, robust r and d processes.

Speaker 1:

So I think that's important to, especially because you wanna fail quick, you wanna get to your outcomes, swiftly so you don't miss your, time to market. Yep. So I think that's pretty important. That's all I really sort of can say on that one.

Speaker 2:

And I guess outside of, you know, being an industrial designer, what else do you do outside of work?

Speaker 1:

Well, I said to you at the beginning that cycling and mountain bikes really got me into design, and, they haven't gone anywhere anytime soon. Unfortunately, there's like a a really drastic growth spurt in electric mountain bikes and new bike technologies, and they always keep you poor and looking for the latest hit. But I've recently just bought a motorbike again, so I'm having a bit of a midlife crisis considering I'm 48, so it's probably the right timing. But lit when I was 17, I owned a Suzuki Sierra and a dirt bike. Now that I'm 48, I own a Suzuki Jimny and a dirt bike.

Speaker 1:

So I think I've gone full circle Yeah. In my my the things I like to do. But I love the beach. Like, I've lived in Port Macquarie. Newcastle obviously wasn't a very big stretch to to open your window to more opportunity as far as jobs go, but keeping that same sort of coastal chilled out vibe that seems to go along with the coastal town.

Speaker 1:

But I've always loved this this blurred line between the coast and the bush, and I think all my past times are really revolve either in the water or or out in the scrub. So there's nothing I love more than going around and riding out in the bush, but then you can go home and go for a swim in the afternoon or vice versa. Yep. So I think we're living in quite a unique space here in Newcastle where there's work, there's unbelievable pastimes, great prosperity due to obviously our port and and other regions like the wine area, manufacturing, and and this exploding renewable space. But design is really sort of right along there with my past times.

Speaker 1:

Like, I enjoy thinking about it. I like watching TV things about it. I like reading about it. But it's always closely aligned with what new things are out there in spaces that I'm really interested in. Usually, bikes, cars, dirt bikes.

Speaker 2:

Cool. Is there anything we haven't chatted about that you wanna cover?

Speaker 1:

Not at all.

Speaker 2:

You're good? Awesome. Thank you. Thanks.