What A Lot Of Things: Tech talk from a human perspective

Step into a quantum realm of confusion as Ian attempts to explain Google's new Willow chip, a computer so powerful it makes regular supercomputers look like pocket calculators from the 1980s. Listen in amazement as our hosts try to wrap their heads around quantum computing using everything from Schrödinger's cat to hand-waving explanations of mysterious "quantum gates" that may or may not be Bill Gates' cooler brother.

But wait! Just when you thought your brain couldn't take any more, Ash whisks us back to the glory days of rubber keyboards and screeching cassette tapes. Relive the high-stakes drama of typing in magazine code listings where one wrong character could spell DISASTER, and discover why modern gaming just isn't quite the same without the constant threat of losing everything when your RAM pack wobbles.

Plus: Ian's lightning-fast speaking adventures, Ash's suspiciously unopened Christmas present, and the eternal quest to explain why testing isn't just something you do at the end (even when Ian looks really, really attentive).

Links

Creators & Guests

Host
Ash Winter
Tester and international speaker, loves to talk about testability. Along with a number of other community minded souls, one of the co-organisers of the Leeds Testing Atelier. Also co-author of the Team Guide to Software Testability.
Host
Ian Smith
Happiest when making stuff or making people laugh. Tech, and Design Thinking. Works as a fractional CTO, Innovation leader and occasionally an AI or web developer through my company, craftscale. I'm a FRSA.

What is What A Lot Of Things: Tech talk from a human perspective?

Ash and Ian talk about interesting Things from the tech industry that are on their minds.

Ian:

The last bit about what a lot of things says, what a lot of things is a quote from the Clangers, a TV show, 19 seventies children's show about pink knitted whistling creatures who live on their own little planet and marvel at the universe around them. And while some people might say that's a reasonable description of Ash and I, we've since updated our podcast artwork to better reflect our tech focus.

Ash:

So no mention of aardvarks?

Ian:

No. I tried. There's just no time.

Ian:

So if we're gonna start, I'm gonna start by saying happy New Year, Ash.

Ash:

Happy New Year, Ian.

Ian:

Christmas party is next Wednesday, but in podcast time, it's the New Year. I know. I know.

Ash:

Uh-huh. Yeah. This is what Mark wonders about. He wonders about time travel, didn't he? Well, he's very lame man.

Ash:

He's a very sensible man.

Ian:

He is. So, yes, weird time thoughts from above.

Ash:

Space time continuum. My because my dad was a builder, they always had their Christmas party in January, which I always found a bit of a strange timey wimey thing.

Ian:

Why did they do that?

Ash:

Because, like, the building industry basically closes down for a lot of December. Pretty early, traditionally.

Ian:

Alright. So because they weren't working, they didn't wanna see their colleagues

Ash:

in the Christmas party. Pretty much. Fair enough. And then, I think also, a Christmas party in January is as well as being weird, I think it's slightly cheaper as well.

Ian:

Well, fair enough. Fair enough, I say.

Ash:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. But as a kid, I was like, this is a very strange phenomenon.

Ian:

Yes. Just yet another example of human humankind torturing time.

Ash:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So between that and my worries about nuclear armageddon and climate change in my childhood.

Ian:

Tell me, you didn't say ”nucular”

Ash:

Nuclear.

Ian:

Oh, good.

Ash:

No. I said nuclear la.

Ian:

You could you could run for president of the United States if you can't say nuclear. It's a, it's a common trait.

Ash:

Well, I think I'd do better than the chap coming in. So it's just my nationality precludes me from running for president of the United States.

Ian:

Yeah. That's the only reason. Otherwise otherwise you'd be doing it right now.

Ash:

Yeah. Well, maybe we should get into some things then.

Ian:

Steady on.

Ash:

I think, you know, we're 15 minutes in.

Ian:

19?

Ash:

19 minutes in. I'm being too kind. Let's let's talk of things.

Ian:

Well, it's good that the 19 minutes feels like 15 minutes rather than the feeling like 38 minutes.

Ash:

That's true, actually.

Ian:

It would be a bad sign if you were kind of, oh my god. I feel like I've been here for an hour and a half, and it's like we're only 3 minutes on the clock. That might just be because I forgot to press record or something. Yes. So I can remember nothing about the previous episode even though I'm in the middle of editing it.

Ian:

Yeah. We talked about, drum roll, please. Drum roll, please. The clock of the long now and software developer productivity.

Ash:

And

Ian:

I feel like we talked about software productivity software developer productivity first.

Ash:

Yes. I agree. I concur.

Ian:

So today, we will excitedly talk about whatever my thing is first. I'm a bit I'm sorry about this thing, by the way. In many ways, quite excited about this thing. And in some other ways, I know so little about it. It's almost like I'm just gonna sit there and nod my head and say, oh, yes.

Ian:

This seems, very good. And then then we just kind of move

Ash:

on. Fast. Incredible. Very fast. Yes.

Ash:

Remarkable.

Ian:

Is it a new train? No. No. It isn't.

Ash:

I think But what is

Ian:

it, Ian? What is it? What is it? What's what?

Ash:

The thing that you've brought that isn't a new train.

Ian:

Are you asking me? Incredible. It's the right thing. Yeah. Well, to avoid being catapulted into the air beyond the great chasm of wherever it was, I will reveal that my thing is Willow.

Ian:

And you might be thinking of a film from 19 eighties.

Ash:

And a slightly, dodgy and quickly canceled series on Amazon, I think, in the last couple of years, which didn't go down very well. But the film Willow was excellent.

Ian:

Well, it's not any of those things.

Ash:

Oh, alright.

Ian:

It is Google's new quantum computing chip.

Ash:

Is it named after the film or the character in the film?

Ian:

I I did ask a Google spokesperson to comment, but they haven't got back to me.

Ash:

They never comment on the interesting things.

Ian:

They never do. That's their job. Well, yeah. That's true, actually. So the thing is that this quantum computing chip so the thing that really made me pay attention to it was from Google's blog post Okay.

Ian:

Announcing it. Willow performed a standard benchmark computation in under 5 minutes. That would take one of today's fastest supercomputers 10 septillion years. Is that a whole? Google's way of contextualizing that number, which is 10 to the power of 25 years, is that it vastly exceeds the age of the universe.

Ash:

I don't really know what a benchmark calculation computation is.

Ian:

Well, it's obviously a computation that is suited to con quantum computers in a way that it's very much not suited to regular computers. Okay.

Ash:

Right. Okay.

Ian:

So, presumably, it's a standard test for a quantum computer.

Ash:

Right. Okay.

Ian:

So you should be able to tell me about that. Has no one ever asked you to test a quantum computer before? No.

Ash:

They haven't. They haven't, to be fair.

Ian:

I assume that Well, they won't now after they hear this, will they?

Ash:

No. No. I assume that quantum computers will be coming to you know, testing will be dead again once quantum computing comes in. So, you know, I'll prepare a blog post about how it's not.

Ian:

Oh, okay. Yeah. That'll be your response to it. So it's extremely weird. Quantum computing is not something you are equipped to understand after a career of regular computing.

Ian:

No.

Ash:

I guess not. The key

Ian:

I couldn't read this. I tried to get So an AI to explain this to me. And the AI said the key principles that make quantum computing special

Ash:

Special.

Ian:

Are superposition, unlike regular bits, that must be either 0 or 1. Qubits, which are, I suppose, quantum computing bits, can exist in a state of being both 0 and 1 at the same time until they're measured.

Ash:

So Schrodinger like.

Ian:

Yeah. Schrodinger's bit. Schrodinger's bit.

Ash:

I mean, I like current bits because you know where you are. It's either a 0 or a 1, but yeah.

Ian:

That that is quite clear. Whereas, there is a an explanation of of this. There's something called a block sphere, and that's block with a c h on the end

Ash:

because It doesn't make any sense. It's okay, does it?

Ian:

It doesn't make any sense, but it's okay. And what it basically seems to be is that 0 and 1 are the 2 poles, the north pole and the south pole of the sphere. But the value of the cubit can be anywhere on the surface of the sphere. Okay. You see, you say okay.

Ash:

I'm saying okay.

Ian:

But but No.

Ash:

I understand that bit. I don't understand how it works with quantum computing, but I

Ian:

I don't understand how it's a bit. A bit is a But

Ash:

it's not a bit, is it? It's a cubit.

Ian:

Well, you're right. Yeah. So that's one of the 2 things Okay. That make quantum computing special. And the other one is entanglement.

Ian:

So 2 or more cubits can be entangled, which basically directly connects the state of it to the state of one of them to the other one. So they basically then have the same state all the time regardless of the distance between them. Okay. Which sounds like instantaneous faster than light communication to me.

Ash:

Yes. It does. Doesn't it?

Ian:

And that is the other That

Ash:

is my thing.

Ian:

So and then what it does is is like, if there's a problem that involves checking a lot of solutions, then basically, you set them all you you create this thing that represents all of the possible solutions. Yeah. And then you do a quantum collapse on it, and then it collapses down to the right solution. Yeah. And how it does that just seems entirely mysterious to me.

Ian:

So I and I there's even an example here, Again, courtesy of the AI. Here's a concrete example, narrator. It's not all that concrete. Say we want to find the factors of 15. So the first thing is classical computer would check 2, 3, 4, 5, 1 at a time.

Ian:

K. Quantum computer creates a superposition of all possible factor pairs, and then it uses I'm just saying these words. It uses quantum

Ash:

quantum gates. Oh, quantum gates.

Ian:

It's Bill's older brother. It uses

Ash:

Bill's much cooler brother.

Ian:

Yes. It uses quantum gates to check all of the pairs simultaneously. Oh. But then it's through interference, wrong answers like 27 cancel out, and only the correct factors remain. What's interference?

Ian:

Well, I think it's interference in the sense of a waveform interfering with another waveform and then cancelling out or or reinforcing each other.

Ash:

Alright. So, like, when the the state is, like, they're connected regardless of distance?

Ian:

For for for listeners, Ash is wobbling his hands in a kind of a slow he had a piece of string that was, forming a wave between his pairs of clenched fingers. He's now just doubling down on this approach of explaining it, which is clearly very useful to me, but

Ash:

because I can see great. It's very

Ian:

Not so useful for, people just listening. So this is the key insight according to Claude, that superposition lets us check many possibilities at once, while entanglement lets us coordinate these checks across multiple cubits.

Ash:

Okay.

Ian:

So the art of quantum algorithms is designing operations that make wrong answers cancel out, and right answers reinforce each other.

Ash:

Okay.

Ian:

That's interesting. So I sort of understand that. And then it it talks about this block sphere with an h, and it just says every possible stage for cubic can be represented as a point on the surface of this sphere, and the north pole is 0 and the south pole is 1. And any other point represents and immediately goes off the rails, the superposition of north and one. The angles, theta for up down, and phi for around, define an exact quantum state.

Ian:

And then it says pure states always lie on the surface, and mixed states are inside the sphere. But I don't know what that means at all.

Ash:

I've I could just about cope with the surface of the sphere.

Ian:

But then then it's and then what it's doing is the operations of the quantum computer are like like Boolean logic gates Mhmm. But not. Well, not is one of them. In fact, like, you blew

Ash:

my mind with that statement. I was like

Ian:

I blew my own mind. My mind's been blown ever since I started talking about this, ever since I found out. So so you you look at quantum gates in terms of how they move points on the spheres. So there's a thing called a Pauli, I guess, named after the physicist, x gate. And then Claude describes that as quantum knot.

Ian:

Alright. And that rotates the sphere a 180 degrees around the x axis, which will move 0 to 1 and 1 to 0, like flipping a coin from tail to head. But, obviously, if it's not exactly at 0 or 1, then it moves around along with the the coin flip. Oh my god. And then we've got the Hadamard gate, which rotates the state 90 degrees around the axis halfway between x and zed.

Ian:

So, basically, there there's loads of this. There's a controlled knot, which works on 2 cubits, so it can't be fully visualized on the Bloch sphere.

Ash:

That's a shame.

Ian:

Phase gates. And then there's some principles. All gates must be reversible. They preserve superposition. They can create and manipulate entanglement, and they must preserve the unit radius of the block sphere.

Ash:

Quantum states always normalize to 1. Yes. So what what might one use this for, Ian, is my question, being the dreadfully practical man that I am.

Ian:

Yes. Well, one thing that apparently is very good at is being able to factorize multiples of 2 large problem numbers, which is bad news for those of us who have ever used RSA or other encryption that depends upon the difficulty of that task.

Ash:

Oh, yeah. True. True.

Ian:

I think all of the numbers will be set up as possibilities, and then it will collapse and be left with your private key. Excellent. And there are people talking about how it could be used for AI, but I I sort of think, well, if you can't use it for AI Here we go. Probably can't get the research funding to do it. So but no.

Ian:

So I suspect because AI is a lot of these, very parallel

Ash:

Mhmm.

Ian:

Operations that we use, advanced hardware for that no doubt that is the kind of thing that it feels like the kind of thing you could do with this. Interestingly, things like doing detailed modeling of climate Mhmm. Which is completely out of the range of super I mean, we try and do it, but it's even today, supercomputers are it's very coarse modeling. Yeah. Yeah.

Ian:

And

Ash:

I'm seeing a lot of subtlety there.

Ian:

They're also talking about this kind of idea of personalized medicine so that you get a quantum computer can calculate an exact drug that exactly cures your whatever it is.

Ash:

Yeah. Generates the right level of profit for the, pharmaceutical company as well.

Ian:

Yes. It's an interesting one because I was talking to someone earlier about this because mind blown. I feel the need to burden everybody I meet with my my problems. But we were talking about how it can be used to crack encryption and how intelligence agencies collect enormous amounts of data and Yep. They hang on to it.

Ian:

And then one day, suddenly, they can decrypt it and find out things from 15 years ago, which might yet be relevant. And it's all dawned on me, actually, they probably gonna have to use it very selectively. It won't be because effectively quantum compute have you ever seen a picture of a quantum computer? No.

Ash:

I can't say that actually.

Ian:

Let's see if we can find a picture of 1 now. There we go. So what we're looking at here is a Chandelier? Copper chandelier thing. Yep.

Ian:

I'm not sure chandelier is really a word.

Ash:

It's an ugly chandelier. I have to say.

Ian:

Yes. You wouldn't put it in your living room. Well, you might if you had enough money. Well, yeah. But it's basically an in almost entirely a cooling system because quantum computers need to operate at absolute 0 or thereabouts.

Ian:

So there's a very elaborate system of cooling, which is why you get all this kind of copper surface area or gold. It looks like gold a bit, isn't it?

Ash:

I think

Ian:

there's gold.

Ash:

Only so much of that around.

Ian:

Yes.

Ash:

A lot of these technologies, it's hard, like I say, it's kind of hard to imagine because they're, like, sort of melt your brain a little bit. It's like, well, what what uses can we put this to? And it's it's then because you you're obviously not gonna use a quantum computer to run your ecommerce site. You could, but it feels like overkill. Right?

Ian:

Yeah. You boot it up, and Windows appears instantly.

Ash:

Figures out everything that you need, and then buys it for you

Ian:

Before you even

Ash:

before you've even thought about it.

Ian:

Yes.

Ash:

And it's like, right. Okay. Maybe maybe that's what they'll do, but it it feels unlikely. So I assume it will be used for other things other than the mundane, or maybe it won't. I don't know.

Ash:

But I guess the point of of any, like, new sort of sufficiently advanced technology is, like, it's hard to imagine what you would use it for. Also, I don't think that's a reason not to do it. You know what I mean? It's like

Ian:

Yeah.

Ash:

It's a good thing to research, because, you know, it it it pushes a boundary or 2, and you find out new things about how everything works.

Ian:

You do. And if you can start using these things for simulating stuff like climate Yeah. Things. I did ask Claude, will this destroy the encryption of Bitcoin? And it said sort of.

Ash:

So so I

Ian:

think, well, that basically meant was not really. Yeah. Which boils all my fun.

Ash:

Sort of. If you like, Ian. Yeah. Yeah. If it makes you happy, yes.

Ian:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's got some really interesting applications, but I don't think we're going to have an iPhone 23 with Quantum computer. Quantum.

Ian:

You know, how we've got,

Ash:

Let's take a take a refrigerated truck around here.

Ian:

50 performance cores and 35 low power cores and 200 neural engine cores and, 6 quantum cores. That's not gonna happen. And as as you say, you've got this refrigerator truck to to to carry around in.

Ash:

To live in while you use your phone.

Ian:

Yes. Yes.

Ash:

So anything about new quantum computers, just immediately I can't stop my brain doing this, but I immediately go to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Ian:

Oh, dear. And deep thought. And the improbability, infinite improbability. Yeah.

Ash:

Just all these things start swirling around in there.

Ian:

He was ahead of his time, wasn't he? Douglas Adams.

Ash:

Yeah. Yeah. So just anything like this, I think, deep thought. And what we're gonna do is we're gonna ask ask it for answers to things without giving it decent questions.

Ian:

I think we got no. I think we got some decent questions. Yeah. I I think. What it's not for is anything that people directly do.

Ian:

It's for people who are researching climate, researching the boundaries of pharmaceutical or medical, people who are wanting to run simulations that Yeah. That sort of defy belief in their complexity. Those are the people who are sort of excitedly trying to get their hands on this. Sure. And possibly intelligence agencies.

Ash:

Always.

Ian:

Always. But, you know, that those are the people who are gonna want these. I don't think I think we will I think the world and society can benefit from the outcomes of them. Yeah. But not direct.

Ian:

I it's hard to think of any direct applications. Yeah. React for quantum. React. When you're running the fastest web server in the world, then collapses into an

Ash:

an infinite improbability. Probability something.

Ian:

There there's a a great art there's an article somebody's written on medium. She's called Jill Platt. Okay. And she's written a 10 minute read on medium called a quantum programming quest for newbies with 10 use cases. And it illustrates it's got that it's it's got a brilliant diagram with a picture of a bit from classical computing.

Ian:

That's got a blue spot for 0 and a red spot for 1. Then it's got a picture of a cubit, which is a sphere made of with north and one at the top and the bottom and the sort of slow gradation between 0 and 1 in terms of the color coding. And it talks about programming them, and it talks about these different interesting gates. And, actually, it does have a bit of a worked example, so you can install a Jupyter notebook. You can't actually install a quantum computer, but I think you can install basically an emulation of of one where you can write and test quantum programs.

Ian:

It has the words buckle up quantum explorers halfway down.

Ash:

So Oh, right. Okay. Well

Ian:

That's when you have to buckle up as a quantum explorer.

Ash:

Oh, Okay.

Ian:

And then you're getting something that's looking really quite like regular code, but put it but it has comments like put the cubit in a superposition of 0 one state.

Ash:

That's a really bad part.

Ian:

Has had any comments along those lines.

Ash:

No. That's not really telling you what the code

Ian:

is doing, is it? Initialize counters for the zeros and ones results. That's that I understand that. So, yes, anyway, there is a, it's a bit Microsoft centric, But if you want to have a go and be a have a go hero of quantum computing

Ash:

Buckle up.

Ian:

You can you too can well, no. You can start gently and then buckle up when you get halfway through. And and you're writing comments like

Ash:

Well, then litter your code with unnecessary comment.

Ian:

Route the the quantum phase gate through the phase coupler and open the x gate to infinity and beyond. The people who who were actors in Star Trek apparently got very good at making up techno bubble Yeah. About the things they were doing. And they they would just talk about quantum phase inhibitors.

Ash:

So this could just be that, couldn't it?

Ian:

It does seem like a quite elaborate practical joke. Yes. That's what

Ash:

it is.

Ian:

So I'm gonna go with, no. It's No. It's a real thing. It's probably I mean, I know IBM were doing it before I left, actually, and actually, and they had computers with 4 cubits. But now we're up to 500 cubits, which is apparently enough to do a lot.

Ian:

A lot of things. A lot of things. Well, I'm quite exhausted by that thing, Ash.

Ash:

I must admit, after a day at work, listening to all the, the the challenging concepts of quantum computing

Ian:

You'll be going in tomorrow and recommending the get

Ash:

one. Absolutely. Absolutely. For the ecommerce site, So we can predict with certainty exactly what everyone wants to buy. Okay.

Ash:

That was a, what kind of thing was that?

Ian:

A baffling, the new

Ash:

best thing.

Ian:

Yeah. The person I was talking to earlier said she might listen to this episode to find out what the answer was. If you've done that, Juliet, I I apologize reservedly for what you just have to go through. I'm just eating my pussy pig.

Ash:

That's quite alright.

Ian:

I'm allowed because it's the interlude.

Ash:

It is the interlude.

Ian:

I think we've got a reasonable amount of interlude y kind of stuff, aren't we?

Ash:

I think so.

Ian:

Can't find any of it because I'm still looking at information about Willow.

Ash:

Willow. Willow of God.

Ian:

The not film. In which case, why don't you start, Ash?

Ash:

Okay.

Ian:

You can probably remember all things. Yes. I mean, your interlude things.

Ash:

My interlude things.

Ian:

They're different from the regular things Mhmm. Because we don't just have 2 of them, and they're not yes. Anyway Yeah. Different from the regular things.

Ash:

So the first item on the on the interlude agenda is that a new leads testing Atelier is going to appear in 2025. Excellent. Well, it's probably gonna be pretty similar to the old I

Ian:

was gonna say, do you mean a new instance of the existing lease?

Ash:

We've just instantiated a new instance of it, rather than a it's a

Ian:

You haven't defined an awful lot of new member properties.

Ash:

No. So it's, so it's gonna appear in 2025. Thinking May at the moment.

Ian:

So not definitely?

Ash:

Need to get

Ian:

some sponsorship first. Sorry. I I'm I'm making a joke because you said May, which seems to be Oh, right. Sorry.

Ash:

I I missed that.

Ian:

That is a month, but it's also an indication of improbability. Yeah. Or less than certainty.

Ash:

Less than certainty. So, yeah. It looks like May 2025, and it'll be a new venue. So

Ian:

So you've you've made that difficult decision.

Ash:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've just had a few accessibility challenges that we felt we needed to to deal with. So we're gonna do that. So that's quite exciting.

Ian:

It is. Maybe I should try and come this time. Can we do what a lot of things think at it? That would

Ash:

be interesting. I like that idea.

Ian:

What could we do?

Ash:

I've I've been to a few conferences where they've recorded a podcast.

Ian:

What's A Lot of Things karaoke?

Ash:

Yeah. At the so, yeah. There's something there.

Ian:

We we get an audience, and they're all sitting there shouting, Figma. Figma.

Ash:

So we yeah. Yeah. We could have we could have, presentation karaoke, but all Figma related, and then it's just me on the stage.

Ian:

It's all the same slide. All the same slide.

Ash:

For, like, 20 minutes talking about Figma Yeah. And how much I like it as a tool, and how much I dislike the use of it.

Ian:

And how much you consider it to be used by tools. Sorry. I thought I gotta hit that out as well.

Ash:

Yeah. Because lots of, you know, clever, sensible people use Figma in very clever, sensible ways. It's just that I've not met them yet.

Ian:

Yes. Instead, you meet the people who abuse Figma and bury developers in a sad Yeah. Yeah. Pile of unrealizable Yeah. Designs.

Ash:

Yeah. Yeah. I I was I was testing something today, and I sorry. I'm not gonna do this. Right?

Ash:

Because it's just I'm not gonna let Figma take over. I'm gonna stop, and I'm gonna move on.

Ian:

When are you gonna move on? After the Christmas party? After the Christmas party. Because you've basically invited everyone to the Christmas party on the on the grounds that they can talk to you about Figma.

Ash:

Yeah. I do. Absolutely. But I I I should start to wean myself off the Figma session.

Ian:

The 2024 thing.

Ash:

Yes. And then I'm gonna move on to

Ian:

find This episode's coming out

Ash:

in 2025, really. We'll see. So my other interlude item, you're very slowly reaching for Percy Pick.

Ian:

Well, I feel like the sound of rustling Percy Pigs on the table will be quite it's one of those things where you do it very slightly, and then, basically, the whole episode just turns into a deafening crackling sound. Yeah. So sorry. You were gonna say something sensible.

Ash:

So I'm getting a Steam Deck for Christmas.

Ian:

I want one of those. Yeah. So It's like you don't have to run Windows to play games.

Ash:

Yeah. So I've resisted for I've done the thing where it's like, I I think I want it, but also, I want to hold off for a little while to make sure that I want it, you know, rather than just buying it, and then thinking, I I don't really need or want that.

Ian:

That's why this podcast works, Ash. It's the differences in the the hosts.

Ash:

Yeah.

Ian:

So I buy it, and then think, what have I got this for?

Ash:

So I I depending on when this podcast comes out, I will either be playing on the Steam Deck, or

Ian:

At the moment that it comes out.

Ash:

That it comes out.

Ian:

Because it normally comes out at 5 AM.

Ash:

Yes. Well, I'm hoping it's at 5, although it might.

Ian:

If it's good enough. If it's

Ash:

good if the game is good enough. So the reason I wanted it was you can play lots of early access stuff on it as well, which is nice, which is not generally available on consoles, which is the majority of my gaming capability at the moment.

Ian:

Well, I must admit that I've also thought about that because I just don't have any platforms that can play big big games. So So I've got a switch and I absolutely love playing the Zelda games.

Ash:

Mhmm.

Ian:

Even though I'm often quite bad at them. I've been playing tears of the kingdom in which, you're supposed to win by constructing machines out of the various mechanisms they give you to build things and have batteries for things. And so I look on YouTube and I see people killing enormous monsters with this fantastic whirling construction that they've made, which spins around and kills the monster while you stand at a safe distance unharmed. Whereas my building things tends to be, to build something, and then it's broken, and then the monster came and ate one of the wheels. Right.

Ian:

And now now I'm trying to drive off on 3 wheels before it catches That's the kind of thing that I I do. That sounds

Ash:

like much more fun, to be

Ian:

fair. It's generally funny.

Ash:

Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah.

Ian:

Which is, I suppose, is fine by me. But I haven't gotten a Windows machine and won't get one.

Ash:

Yeah. Me neither.

Ian:

So this seems like a very good way of accessing that massive catalog over Steam. And does it, like the switch, plug into your TV?

Ash:

Yes. So I've got the

Ian:

the dock. Hang on. Now now you're confusing me. So you are getting this for Christmas, or you've got it already for Christmas?

Ash:

It exists in my house. It's still in its box. You're

Ian:

not allowed to open it till Christmas?

Ash:

No. No. No. And I'm a grown up, so I can leave it alone for a few more days.

Ian:

I'm not a grown up. I would just open it. Would you? Yes. And then Paula would come and tell me off at great length, because she is a model of of self control.

Ian:

I'm a model of, I'll have another pussy pic, please, which is why I'm not a model at all.

Ash:

So that is exciting.

Ian:

That is exciting. I

Ash:

am excited.

Ian:

And now I want one of those for Christmas.

Ash:

Well, perhaps, I can bring mine. You can review it for your needs before purchasing.

Ian:

Why would I do that? When I could just purchase it and discover whether or not it met my needs.

Ash:

You're Yeah. Yeah.

Ian:

You're a

Ash:

true consumer, Ian.

Ian:

I'm a I'm yes. I've tried.

Ash:

You are the capitalist stream.

Ian:

Yeah. But not not the recipient of the capitalist dream. No money.

Ash:

You make the dreams come true. Yeah. Everyone else's dreams.

Ian:

Other capitalist. Yeah. Or not even other ones, just capitalists.

Ash:

So those were my items.

Ian:

But not things.

Ash:

But not things.

Ian:

Yes. When we say things around here, we mean something very specific. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Ian:

So I've done another talk.

Ash:

Yes. That's 2 talks in quick succession.

Ian:

Well, compared with the last 4 years before the pandemic when I did them before.

Ash:

So it's kinda like the pattern of the what a lot of things recordings, isn't it?

Ian:

Intermittent at best.

Ash:

Sudden burst of activity.

Ian:

So the first talk was about AI and how we've been working on putting AI into Spotify's platforms to help teams. This talk was about podcasting.

Ash:

That'd be better.

Ian:

Yes. And I I must say, I think it went alright. I don't know if you've heard of Pecha Kucha before. Yes. So as I now can't do, exposition about it to you because you said you know what it is, I will just do exposition about it for the one listener.

Ash:

To the to the listener?

Ian:

To the listener. And the explanation is that it's a presentation like other ones, but you have to produce exactly 20 slides, and you don't control them. They are run on a timer for 20 seconds per slide. So that means that whatever however many words you have to say, your talk lasts for 6 minutes and 40 seconds, and then you're done. And because of the relentless progression of the slides every 20 seconds, you really have to work to make sure that you don't fall behind because there's nothing worse than arriving at the end of the slides, 2 slides before the end of the presentation.

Ian:

But, obviously, that is a branded thing. So, obviously, there we haven't, licensed, that name to use Sponsored by in this podcast or other otherwise. So it was, I'm just gonna say, a lightning talks event put on by Ilkley Arts. And there were 8 talks in the evening, and they were all really good, actually. There was one about a project for dancers to generate music by giving them a Apple Watch or an Android watch.

Ian:

Oh. And then they can vary parameters or generate notes on Ableton Live by just their movement. So it means that instead of dancers dancing to music, they participate in creating it by the dancing that

Ash:

they're doing.

Ian:

So that's really interesting. That's a chap called Simon East did that. And there was one by Dave Hesman Halsch. That's what he did. Why I love churches even though I'm an atheist.

Ash:

Right.

Ian:

So he talked about various, churches that he's been seeing, told interesting stories about them. And there was a chap who casts, makes bronze sculptures. There was, there was all sorts. He was really good. And then me wittering on about What's A Lot of Things and my other podcasts in between them all.

Ian:

So it was good fun.

Ash:

And you got to talk about Clangers for 20 seconds.

Ian:

I did talk about Clangers very briefly.

Ash:

Yeah.

Ian:

I said, what's a lot of things is a quote from the Clangers. And then I sort of suggested that Ash and I might have things in common with the Clangers, but that we probably ought to update our artwork, which we have done.

Ash:

And now as well as Clangers, there are humans.

Ian:

Yes. To wit. To wit. To You and me. V and me.

Ash:

The v and me.

Ian:

They say around here.

Ash:

That is what they say around here.

Ian:

So, yes. Good fun. Had by all, I hope. But by me, specifically. Although, I my words per minute was considerable.

Ash:

Got to pack it in. Right?

Ian:

Yes. You have to say all the things

Ash:

All the things.

Ian:

At all the speed. No. It's funny. I fell behind almost immediately.

Ash:

Did you know? Yeah.

Ian:

The first slide, I talked too slowly, and I thought, uh-oh.

Ash:

Well, I guess you've got to try and find the pace, and you're not gonna find it straight away.

Ian:

Yes. Despite all the rehearsing that you might have done. Yeah. Yeah. It's a funny it's a funny feeling doing that.

Ian:

Yeah.

Ash:

Yeah. Because, generally, you go a bit faster when you speak on stage, I find.

Ian:

But Yes.

Ash:

I guess it's not necessarily true. It's not a rule.

Ian:

A presentation coach that I recently listened to a session from Mhmm. Was talking about the use of silence in presentations, which was quite interesting. And she said, when you when you say something important that you want people to remember, just stop for a couple of seconds, which feels a lot longer.

Ash:

Especially 20 seconds a slide as well.

Ian:

Well, yeah. There's no none of that. Didn't do any of that yesterday. But stop for 2 or 3 seconds, because just let it sink in. And that's really powerful.

Ian:

And, actually, I tried it in something else I did, and it really does work. People are just, oh.

Ash:

Can you see the, light bulbs going? Well, not literally, but

Ian:

I metaphorically hope for the light bulbs going on. That's that's the best. That's closest I can get to that. So, yes, that was my, exciting

Ash:

That is exciting.

Ian:

Recent development, And we should totally do something to do with what a lot of things that they're testing at all.

Ash:

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. That's a good idea.

Ian:

What a lot of things karaoke. Peep members of the audience have to give us a thing, and then we have to make all of our outstanding jokes about it in under a minute.

Ash:

Get one in what is your thing? What?

Ian:

Yes. Yeah.

Ash:

There we go. Knock that one off

Ian:

really easily. Tick me do. Well, I could do one of the things bingo. We record an episode. We have a bingo cards with all of our jokes on it.

Ash:

1st 5 minutes?

Ian:

Yeah. It won't take longer than that. It won't take longer than that. Maybe we could just come up with one that we're just gonna hold off on. Yeah.

Ian:

And we can just tease people that we're gonna do it and then not do it. Like, the the what one. We can just say Why? Well, that depends what you might think about that, which I suppose must bring us neatly back to things.

Ash:

I think so.

Ian:

Even though it actually isn't really bringing us anywhere close to things.

Ash:

No. No. But we should probably move on to another thing.

Ian:

Yes. It I feel like otherwise, you know, we'd be back to what a lot of thing, but nobody wants that.

Ash:

Well, you say nobody.

Ian:

Bingo. Nobody accept me.

Ash:

Nobody accept you.

Ian:

So, Ash, what is your thing?

Ash:

What is my what is my thing?

Ian:

What? What? What? What? What?

Ian:

What? What is your thing?

Ash:

So I want to talk about the power of technology nostalgia. There are many things that that evoke nostalgia, I think, aren't they? So I was thinking about this the other day, because there was a a review of a a version of the Spectrum 48 k with the rubber keyboards rubber keys rather.

Ian:

Well, yes. A rubber key, a rubber keyboard.

Ash:

Yes. Both. So that was the first machine I ever owned, Spectrum 48 k.

Ian:

Oh.

Ash:

And I just remember we had the speech module as well that you plugged into the back, and you could type in what you wanted it to say. And we used to write songs, and it was so cool. But it wasn't cool. Right. But, you know.

Ian:

I just remember I think it must have been what was it? It was some computer. I remember hearing it singing singing poisoning pigeons in the park. I think it must have been something to do with Vax VMS

Ash:

Oh, right. Yeah.

Ian:

Digital Yeah. Equipment corporation. But it had there was a voice synthesized for it, and someone made it sing poisoning pigeons in the park by Tom Lehrer.

Ash:

So we came up with our own songs. We we made

Ian:

it That's even better.

Ash:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Ian:

No pigeons were poisoned in your park?

Ash:

No. No. And then I remember getting the the Spectrum magazine, and people would send in their programs, and then you could type them in and run. I did that. Yeah.

Ian:

And then the Ram Pack would wobble. Yeah. And it would all be lost. That was the exact 'eighty one really, wasn't it?

Ash:

Yeah. Yeah. But but, yeah. So I I I I loved those days.

Ian:

You see, yeah. I did.

Ash:

I did. Yeah. Yeah. But then it kinda got me to, it's got me to thinking. So now when I, so the the, I've got something called a super pocket, which is like a a

Ian:

I'm looking at your super pocket. Well, I

Ash:

do have super pockets. It for my Wall of Things shirt that I always seem to wear. You're telling me because

Ian:

you're remarkably consistent. But but it's called

Ash:

the Super Pocket. It's got loads of games on it, all the old games, and, you know, like, emulates, like, the Atari to 1,600. So it's got Millipede and Centipede. And they're tiny versions of consoles. So there's a tiny Super Nintendo, and I have that.

Ian:

Does it play all the sounds really squeakily? Because it's so tiny.

Ash:

Like a tiny violin. Yeah. No. You you put it into your your television.

Ian:

It's because it'll come with a tiny screen as well.

Ash:

Oh, is it like, an HDMI? Yeah. Is it

Ian:

an HDMI? Yeah. Is this an HDMI plug? Yeah. I think.

Ash:

Yeah. And then you plug that in, and you can play all the old games to your heart's content. But then I realized that when I start to play these old games to my heart's content.

Ian:

Is your heart not content?

Ash:

No. It's not. It's just like, is this what has happened here? Why why obviously, I've changed over the years, and the games have, you know, because they're a point in time. And they're not enough.

Ian:

Well, that's the thing. They were computers were amazing when that when they first came out. I remember going I mean, I, was reading an article that you linked to about this in the Guardian, and he was talking about going to Debenhams or somewhere to play on their computers. Yeah. I went to w a Smith in North Finchley, and, I used to go on the zed x eighty one and I used to write for I equals 1 to 22 print hello.

Ian:

Next I or whatever it was. I I'm not even sure I can I'm remembering the I set particularly well. That's probably I'm remembering c. So maybe it was no. Oh my goodness.

Ian:

I've forgotten Sinclair Bassett. Finally. Managed

Ash:

that. So many years.

Ian:

Yeah. But, yeah, that experience you related there of typing in things from magazines. Oh my goodness. That was the literal worst. And then particularly, sometimes, there would be a machine code, which was always a bit awe inspiring for me.

Ian:

Yeah. Yeah. But then you would have to type in rem, which was one keystroke for the whole word rem.

Ash:

Yeah.

Ian:

And then after that, it was just like a 1,000 random characters. And if you did one of them wrong, it immediately crashed, and you had to start again.

Ash:

Truly rewarding, endeavors.

Ian:

My my son, Tom, went through a stage of installing Linux on on his computers. And he found a distribution of Linux where the rewards of installing it included a feeling of accomplishment. And he said he did have a feeling of accomplishment after he managed to install it.

Ash:

After many

Ian:

hours. Yes. After yes. Exactly so. But that was nothing to the feeling or accomplishment of typing in a machine code program from a magazine and it working.

Ian:

Because these computers, there's no memory protection or anything. If it crashed, that was it. There was no you unplugged it and plugged it in again Yeah. With tears in your eyes.

Ash:

It was lost.

Ian:

It was lost.

Ash:

So what was your favorite game as a lad?

Ian:

I am going to go back further to the ZX 80 1, which preceded the Spectrum. Yeah. It didn't even have color. It had 16 shades of gray. And these computers were all plugged in using a PAL connection Yep.

Ian:

Which young people these days haven't even heard of. Mhmm. It was a coaxial cable that had the same sort of signal that came down from your tele TV area on the top of your house. So it pretended to be a a particular TV station, channel 39. It was

Ash:

on. That's amazing, isn't it?

Ian:

Yes. It's remarkable that that you just think about these things. How did that even work? So we, Against

Ash:

the odds. That's how it works.

Ian:

Against the odds. Yes. And the z x eighty one, I never owned one. But I used to go to WH Smiths. And the most terrifying computer game I've played in my life Mhmm.

Ian:

Was 3 d monster maze on the zed x 81. And you think about how they would implement a 3 d game on a computer with a 3.5 megahertz Yeah. Chip, and NVIDIA hadn't been invented yet. So just just for the the heart of converting, that's naught point naught naught 35 gigahertz. Yeah.

Ian:

It's just how did that even work? It was about 6 frames per second. So people who would just like, well, I can't get out of bed for under a 120 frames per second. They probably wouldn't have thought much of it. And I actually this game made a sufficient impression on me that 17 years ago it is now, I got an emulator and played 3 d monster maze again.

Ian:

And I made a screen recording of it and uploaded it to YouTube where it still remains my most successful YouTube video and people writing comments on it in 20 24. And some of them are just uncomprehending because they can't imagine why anyone would waste their time and don't think so. Crap. And then some of them are like, that's so bloody scary. And it was.

Ian:

Yeah. It was all in machine code as well. Yeah. So that I didn't have to ever type it in.

Ash:

Yes. So when I think about because you were you were kind of glowing while you were talking about that that game and that experience.

Ian:

It's just just perspiring.

Ash:

Just perspire. So I guess I was thinking, do we think that programming, has it lost some of its, like, early, like, innocence, if you know what I mean, and, like, naivety? Or did it ever have it?

Ian:

It's lost its high stakes.

Ash:

That's true.

Ian:

The the the stakes of, if you want to save it, it's no good just typing command s. You have to plug a cassette type player in through a 3.5 millimetre, mono or stereo jack plug, and then find the right place on the tape where you'd saved the thing that you're working on.

Ash:

Yeah. And

Ian:

then you had to load it for, like, 2 minutes, and it screamed at you in shrieks of electronic pain and made funny stripes on the screen. Yeah. That was the spectrum. The z x 81 just made wild interference patterns when you when you loaded that. It was just wild beyond belief.

Ash:

Yeah.

Ian:

I think I mean, that's what I that's the first programming ideas when I had those computers. And I I remember writing an optimized version of the Unix crypt function on my SinclairQL that I got. I was very, very proud of that SinclairQL. And it had a 68,008 CPU. So I wrote the, rewrote the crypt algorithm from c into, 68,000 assembler.

Ash:

Yeah.

Ian:

And then couldn't be asked to write a password getter that used it because I the effort of just doing that isn't enough. But the way I feel about it, I I feel like it's about a lot of nostalgia things. You know, when you're a teenager, the music that you like in those particular years of your teenage life, you like it forever even though it was crap. Yeah. So modern you, if you heard it for the first time, you'd be like, oh, whatever.

Ian:

But because of all that Yeah. Association and and evocation, you like it still. And I think there's something there's something of that in my sort of memory of programming. Mhmm. But I was so I mean, I I just found it very exciting to be able to program a computer.

Ian:

Yeah. I there was a book my dad had that he gave me to read in which and I I tried for about half an hour today to locate the title of it. But the more I searched for it, the more I didn't find it. But, basically, it let you program a computer. It taught you how to program, but it recognized that no one had a computer.

Ian:

So you basically write the program, and then it would tell you how to step through it to see if it worked. Okay. It was just like, oh, okay. My dad had a Texas Instruments TI 58 programmable calculator for his work. And, again, I was absolutely besotted with that, and I I programmed all kinds of things on that.

Ian:

He used to program, like, guess guess the number games.

Ash:

Yeah.

Ian:

That where it just gets saved minus 1 if it was lower or might plus 1 if it was higher, and then you typed in another number. In fact, I did that. So one of my great triumphs with my Casio FX 780p in my when I was 14, which had 38 programmable steps. I was programming against the number game in 38 programmable steps. I I considered it to be a great triumph.

Ian:

It wasn't very interesting to play it, but to make it fit in the 39 steps was a very,

Ash:

Yeah. That's like an interesting concept about working with, you know, when when you first started programming in all the computers. It was like, what you built wasn't amazing, but it it was the process of getting there. That was the amazing thing.

Ian:

Yes.

Ash:

And I think, to me, it it is somewhat flipped. Amazing things can be built, but the process of getting there is different now.

Ian:

Yeah. Absolutely. Because,

Ash:

you know, like I said, the the stakes are lower. You can put together a mobile app with relative ease if you know roughly what you're doing. Whereas

Ian:

Yes. Charge GPT. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Ash:

Whereas programming, you know, when I was younger, the output wasn't great, but there was so much fun in the journey to get there.

Ian:

But the yeah. But and the question is, was that us or was it that time and that Yeah. The thing is that what we had was it was rarity. So hardly anyone had a computer. And then when you looked at the people who had them, the ones who used them for not just playing games, but programmed them, that was even less.

Ian:

And it it was there was scarcity in it. I don't know. I there's all sorts of things in there, isn't there? There's that time of life. Yeah.

Ian:

There's that feeling of discovery. I remember a friend of mine wrote a a piece of software for the BBC Micro

Ash:

Mhmm.

Ian:

That was like a little thing. You just you could put it in, and then it would make every 14th keystroke not register. And you'd see we used to and they put it on these computers in the school, and then people would be like, tight, tight, tight, tight, tight.

Ash:

Imagine if you were playing granny's garden in your 14th keystroke.

Ian:

I know.

Ash:

That would be absolutely heartbreaking.

Ian:

The the tune you see, I never played Granny's Garden, but my brother Dan Yeah. Refers to it. Yeah. And the thing he refers to is that the music from it is a sort of piece of Irish folk music that I'm very fond of the folk music version of

Ash:

it Yeah. Yeah.

Ian:

Rather than the BP version. I don't know. Maybe I didn't do that very well.

Ash:

No. I don't know. But that was BP anyway.

Ian:

Yes. It was BP.

Ash:

Or at least duty.

Ian:

Yes. I never did play that, but Dan talks about it. He played it. Yeah. And it had that music.

Ash:

Yeah. Yeah. So because there was another article that I kind of, when I went on this, like, journey thinking about this, so that So it was in Game Central, basically saying, sort of retro video games are a waste of everyone's time and money. It's like, there's no point in going back there. So I have found that a really sort of curious, because, obviously, I've been thinking about how I'd invested in retro games

Ian:

A bit disappointed. And then

Ash:

been like, oh, right. Okay. Well, that was kind of interesting for a few minutes, but now I'm gonna go back to playing on my PlayStation 5 in some very rich world that has been created for me. So I just found that. I was like, oh, yeah.

Ash:

I see what you're saying. I don't know if I fully agree.

Ian:

Well, I think that's a bit harsh. I mean, the fact is it's not a waste of everyone's time and money if somebody made it and somebody else bought it. Yeah. And people do have those kinds of nostalgia and but, yeah, I think you're right that by comparison with modern games, they're very thin because they they're miracles of resource usage. Yeah.

Ian:

And interestingly, most of these things were written by one person. Yeah. Because, you know, there was no concept of having a team writing a a game. No. And then you'd get some of these sort of Blizzard software or whatever who would publish a game, but probably one person had written it.

Ian:

But someone else marketed it for them and said, well, it took took a percentage for something and

Ash:

Maybe it was a sound design for them or something like

Ian:

that. Yes. Yeah. Beep design.

Ash:

Beep design. Yeah. So I I find it really interesting that in, like, the gaming world, there's so many remakes of old games and sequels to, you know, older ideas. One question that we kind of pondered was, does nostalgia, like, hinder you innovating on

Ian:

Well, it depends who it depends who you are in that scenario. Because, I mean, if you're a large company, like, for example, I'm just gonna think about, possible examples of Bethesda, And you've got this incredible game. Skyrim is an incredible game. But, basically, you sort of think, well, I've got a risky option of doing something entirely new that may fall flat, or I've got a less risky option of doing something based on something that I already know people love and will come to. Yeah.

Ian:

Then, you know, it's commercially tempting to to take that less risky route. Isn't it?

Ash:

Yeah. Just sort of play it safe if you like.

Ian:

Oh, at least safer.

Ash:

Yeah. But Even if it's part of, like, a long decline.

Ian:

Yes. Exactly. Yes. I don't know. I mean, the thing is, look at Stardew Valley.

Ian:

I mean, one person did that. I mean, that that still blows my mind that one person did that. Yeah. Took him years. Concerned Ape is his, Yeah.

Ash:

And I guess, like, that was the norm, as in one person would

Ian:

generally In the eighties.

Ash:

Yeah. It was the norm for that to happen. Yeah. And then now, it's, like, mind blowing that someone could come up with something as

Ian:

All the music, all the artwork, all of the coding, all of the story lines. I mean, you think about the different roles that are involved in games now. Yeah. And one person to do all of them, it seems like that must be quite a remarkable person to be able to do that. Not all of us have got that whole range of skills.

Ian:

Yeah.

Ash:

But I suppose it's the same for non gaming software as well. Like, you used to have very, very small teams, 2 or 3 people maybe working on, you know, applications.

Ian:

This reminds me of the SinclairQL again. So Scion, who made organizers for a long time. Yeah. But they got their start doing software for Sinclair Computers. They did Hungry Horace.

Ian:

Do you remember?

Ash:

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Ian:

I'm pretty sure that was them. They did a a suite of office they did basically Microsoft Office for the QL before Microsoft Office existed. And so there was a word processor and a spreadsheet and, and another thing, maybe a database.

Ash:

Yep.

Ian:

And presentations haven't been invented. And they they but they have this this feature where if you took the little drive out of the thing while you had a document open, That was it. You could not recover that document.

Ash:

Yeah. So even if you'd written your memoir

Ian:

You could have written your memoir, but if you forgot and took the micro drive out before you say before before you saved it, it wasn't just that it was you lost the work you'd done since you last saved it. That was it. You lost the whole thing.

Ash:

High stakes indeed. Yes.

Ian:

It was very high stakes. I remember being slightly bemused by that. Even then, I thought that's a weird design choice. Yeah. Yeah.

Ian:

I mean, yeah, I can I can see that you don't save it constantly? But to basically mark it as open just so that you can refuse for anything to do with it later is is a bit rubbish.

Ash:

And say, well, you won't do that again, will you?

Ian:

No. You've learned your lesson, have you?

Ash:

So, yeah, as a thing, I didn't really sort of know where I was gonna go with this one. I just think that it's just quite a powerful force, nostalgia.

Ian:

It is. Yeah.

Ash:

And technology has changed so much. Those were simpler times. Well, that's the thing. I don't know if they were. They probably were.

Ian:

I think we should start a concerted campaign to go back to the 19 eighties.

Ash:

Yeah. I

Ian:

think the, generation x or whoever they are, the generation that wants us to go back to the fifties, they're mistaken.

Ash:

Oh, right. Okay. It should be the eighties. Should be the eighties. So generation y were right.

Ash:

If that's the right generation. I never know.

Ian:

Generation y o y o y. Y o y.

Ash:

See, I didn't really know with this thing, like, well, some things don't have a a real conclusion, do they? But it just seems nostalgia seems like such a powerful force in society, and definitely in technology, because we are part of the generation that started to grow up with it.

Ian:

We are.

Ash:

And it became, you know, part of the fabric of society and who we are. And then, you know, with things like quantum computing, for example, even those of us that grew up with it, there are things happening now that challenge all of our understanding of technology as we as we see it.

Ian:

As, yeah, as we've known it

Ash:

in the past. As we grew up with, basically.

Ian:

Yes. Yeah.

Ash:

So, yeah, that was my thing.

Ian:

Nice nice callback there to the quantum computing disaster from Italy.

Ash:

So I think it's nice that we've gone from quantum computing to the zedx81. You know? We've covered the full range of

Ian:

Yes. In the next episode, we're gonna go from the zedx80 all the way back to the Babbage's analytical engine.

Ash:

I could regale you with tales of the first bug, which was a literal bug.

Ian:

It was.

Ash:

But I won't do that.

Ian:

Because that's a thing.

Ash:

That is a thing. That is probably a thing. It's

Ian:

probably a thing.

Ash:

So 2 monumental things, Ian.

Ian:

Yes. I think yours was more fun, because we actually can do nostalgia ourselves.

Ash:

Well none

Ian:

of us can really do it.

Ash:

You just sort of look confused.

Ian:

Well, sadly, for our listener, they won't know how confused we were looking.

Ash:

Just imagine how confused

Ian:

we are. Quite confused. Yeah.

Ash:

For listeners who will see us at the Christmas party promise me. You will then see how confused we can be

Ian:

Perhaps we'll be because we're in a situation. What we ought to do is publish this episode with a custom cover art, which is the same as the current one, but we're looking really confused in it. Just to give people I'm

Ash:

sure we can capture that quite easily.

Ian:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty much any of the other pictures we took last time. Yeah.

Ian:

That's

Ash:

true, actually. Yeah.

Ian:

I think everyone should, or at least more people, should hold their eyes open with their fingers when they're having their picture taken.

Ash:

It's the only way I can keep

Ian:

my eyes open. Great about it. So I hope you're gonna wear your traditional what will they look like shirt for the for the Christmas party. Otherwise, people won't notice you.

Ash:

I don't I don't know why this has happened.

Ian:

Well, you could do a a sort of anti Figma T shirt.

Ash:

Anti Figma T shirt.

Ian:

Maybe you could design it using Figma in a hyper ironic twist.

Ash:

Because then there'd be 3 different Figma files with different designs for it, and then we'd have to go and find out which ones are right, and which ones are the latest, and which ones have been signed off.

Ian:

That would inevitably happen. Yeah. Even though it's just us.

Ash:

I think we should probably say goodbye now.

Ian:

To Figma.

Ash:

To Figma.

Ian:

Or to each other.

Ash:

To each other. To this episode.

Ian:

Farewell, cruel world. Oh, dear.

Ash:

So happy New Year again, everyone.

Ian:

Yes. And Merry Christmas for 2025. We're good. You you heard it here for

Ash:

In whatever order you heard this, all salutations of the season.

Ian:

Whatever it may be.

Ash:

Whatever it may be. Happy Easter, everyone.

Ian:

This is our case of what we used to do when we argued about deadlines Yeah. In episode in 2019, where I said, the next episode will be 12th January, and then it was 2 years later.

Ash:

Yeah. I'm not gonna explain again about deadlines, estimates, and the only reason I attend sessions, which involve those types of words. I only oh, god damn it. I'm gonna start to explain. No.

Ash:

I'm not gonna explain. Okay. The only reason I attend those sessions

Ian:

All I did was look attentive for a second, and it was enough.

Ash:

The only reason I attend those sessions is so that people don't say, well, how long will testing take? If they don't say it great, they do say it, I then have to explain to them that why that's a bad thing. And the testing is not a separate activity for the team. The testing can only ever stop. It cannot be finished.

Ian:

And you can't do any testing unless there's a quality engineer

Ash:

present. Exactly. Called Ash. Winter. Just so clear.

Ian:

There can be only one.

Ash:

That's me.

Ian:

Yeah. Right? Yeah.

Ash:

That's who you mean.

Ian:

That's who I mean.

Ash:

Okay. Good.

Ian:

That's who I always mean.

Ash:

That's who I mean Okay. Right. Now we should probably finish before I start talking about something else, which is odd. We flipped roles here a little bit, aren't we?

Ash:

No. No. Just because you look attentive. I've got other things I could talk about, but I'm not gonna do it.

Ian:

I got a a now bet on with myself for how long I can keep Ash talking on by just looking attentive.

Ash:

That's it. I'm gonna turn away.

Ian:

It's very compelling, isn't it? My attentive look.

Ash:

It is. It's it's eyebrows up.

Ian:

My whole being is radiating a sense of, cool. I know you're about to say something really interesting.

Ash:

Tell me more. Complete me. Tell me again the same

Ian:

stories that

Ash:

you always tell.

Ian:

Yeah. Make again the same jokes that you always make. And that, boys and girls, is what a lot of things.

Ash:

So thank you, dear listener.

Ian:

Yes. Thank you indeed, and goodbye.

Ash:

Goodbye.