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A show about cameras, creativity, and the weird shit your brains do while you're trying to make something.
Together, we're exploring photography for all levels — asking the silly questions, sharing the expert knowledge, and digging into what it actually takes to grow as a human being and as an artist.
Ep 08 - The Trap of Overthinking
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[00:00:00] Introduction
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Amy (she/her): So today's topic, um, actually took me down a little bit of a rabbit hole of, 1980s TV themes.
Casey (she/her): I
Amy (she/her): and I realized that TV themes in those days, A, we still listen to them because we couldn't, like, fast-forward over them. But they're all saxophones and synthesizers.
Amy (she/her): the reason I was going down that rabbit hole,
was I was thinking about today's topic, working on a few notes, and came to the conclusion that I have two different brains. So we're talking about overthinking today, and I have two brains. I have the Boy Scout brain and I have the MacGyver brain.
Um, and that's how I deal with kinda overthinking, I guess, so. before we go down that rabbit hole of 1980s, uh, TV shows,
um, let's talk about, and I'm gonna throw this to you because this is your wheelhouse. Um, we use the word
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): overthinking a lot.
Like, people, it becomes a whole personality.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): Um, and I wanna talk about what it actually is, um, and how it kinda shows up because I, I think we all nod and smile and go, "Oh yeah, I'm an overthinker," or, or this, that, and the other thing. But let's define it
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): you know, that's what we do here. Um, so I'm gonna pitch it to you to do that.
Casey (she/her): No, I think that's a great place to start because like you said, it's... There's some of these words that we use all the time. Like I know in a couple episodes we're gonna talk about imposter complex, like what are these things? And you don't know, and you nod along, and then someone tells you more and you're like, "Oh wait, no, I do do that or I don't do that."
And so
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): overthinking its simplest is w- when we tip from like thinking about something in a way that's actually productive, moving us forward, helping us out, when we tip from that into a realm of so stuck in the thought that we're not taking action, that we start to actually like dysregulate our nervous system, um, where it starts to jam us up.
And so the thinking becomes the problem, or sometimes it completely shuts down the whole system. So this can kind of go a couple different ways, which I'm guessing is where you're going with the, the Boy Scout brain versus the MacGyver brain. Like, I'm curious about this. But it's this, this transition point from some things in life take a lot of thinking.
Figuring out photography, and we're gonna kind of keep going into this, takes a lot of thought at various stages in the process, but where are you being intellectual, in depth, learning, growing, and where have short-circuited the system? And sometimes that's literally our nervous system short-circuiting. Sometimes that's just like now we're stuck in like a loop cycle, a thought cycle, and we can't
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): the loop
Amy (she/her): Right Or it even could be a loop of doing the same action over and over, like editing a photo on, on, like, okay, there's still something wrong with it. There's still something wrong with it, and, and I keep going back to it and trying to make changes, and at some point that's when the good enough thing has to kick in and go, "It, it, it's fine.
Just, it's good. It's good."
Casey (she/her): Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe it's not salvageable. Yeah. But yeah, same.
Amy (she/her): That, that
Casey (she/her): the trying to, like, go back to... It's, for me, when I catch myself overthinking, like, so what this actually looks like, feels like for me is a repetitiveness that starts to feel almost either... It feels one of two ways.
It gets really repetitive in my brain and it gets frantic, and, I have to figure out the solution in this, very uncomfortable, like, frantic solution, search. Or it gets really repetitive and my insides are like, "Yep, fuck this," and, check out. And, the thought is still there in my brain, but, I cannot bring myself to take action, to give a damn, to, break the loop.
I just, like, power down
Amy (she/her): Do you have a, an example, a photography example you can talk about that has maybe happened recently?
[00:04:40] The Part Where Casey Overthinks Live on Air
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Casey (she/her): Uh, yesterday morning. Uh, yeah, recently. So, so I am starting to explore, uh, one of the things in photography I'm fascinated with is pet portrait photography, specifically like dog studio portraits, the bright, colorful background, the like high-energy dog, like capture in motion. And so I'm realizing in this process I need to learn more about lighting, 'cause so far everything I've done in photography has been like birds, has been outdoors.
And so
I'm realizing I need to learn how to, like, create this light, and I'm realizing this is, like, a whole 'nother language to understand what it's saying about, like, the type of light and how the light triggers in relation to the camera. And then the thing I got overthinking on is the setup of lights.
I'm like, okay, looking at the five photographers who I'm kind of obsessed with in this genre right now, one of them uses a two-light setup, one uses a three-light setup, one uses three or four lights depending on the thing. And I'm like, "Crap, which do I do? Do I need them all? Oh my gosh, that's a lot of money.
Uh, like, what's gonna make me the best photographer? What's gonna solve all my problems?" And I'm, like, in this cycle of, like, trying to the, "right decision" about getting into studio lighting And I've, I mostly worked through this and I'm like, you know what? I'm a beginner. I see a two-light setup, and I like those photos, and I can see the difference about what I like. But yeah, I have spent an obscene number of hours over the last week researching where we have tipped from researching into obsessing and overthinking about lighting, lighting setups, what's the right way to angle my lights, what are the right lighting kits to buy, and all that kind of crap. Yeah
Amy (she/her): Yeah. I, I love the fact that, I mean, we're coming back around to I think it was our first episode about right versus wrong, and it, and the idea that there is a right answer. And yet every studio photographer out there Even if they use exactly the same equipment, they're gonna set it up slightly differently.
Because then it comes down to taste and style and, you
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): do you want your photos to look. But this idea we get stuck in that I wanna be right.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): there's, I think there's also an element of I wanna buy it once. I know for me that's a thing.
Casey (she/her): That's a huge part of it
Amy (she/her): I,
Casey (she/her): me.
the trap that I'm in is getting enough to get me started without spending money that I kind of don't have at the moment, but gets me set up right to experiment with the style of photography.
I have proven to myself that my lighting, current lighting setup is inadequate for what I want. And so I'm like,
Amy (she/her): Okay.
Casey (she/her): I know what I have doesn't work or what it works for." I won't even say it doesn't work. I have some beautiful shots that using the current lighting system. They work for this, but I want this, which means I now have to have this. And so I don't wanna buy the budget lights
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): potentially gonna
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): and have to upgrade in six months. I don't
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): four lights if it turns out I love a two-light setup. I... And then, and now I'm starting to overthink, and the wheels are turning, and I'm getting flustered about fucking lights again. Welcome to me overthinking in real time.
Amy (she/her): Okay, take a breath. Let me, let me be you for a moment. Just, just breathe. The thought will pass, right? Emotions don't last that long
Casey (she/her): Yes.
Amy (she/her): Sorry.
Casey (she/her): Exactly.
Amy (she/her): Had to do it.
Um,
Casey (she/her): But like that's, that's...
Amy (she/her): thing or two from you
Casey (she/her): Right, you did. You're beautifully done, well executed. And this is like, I think everybody has this ability to overthink. I think sometimes, like for me, my ADHD can really fuel my overthinking, and it can literally turn on that fast, and I can go from what is logical, reasonable research about something I'm trying to learn about, man, that fast my brain gets hijacked and I'm like spiraling. And I'm pretty good at catching it because it's something I've been working on for years. But that's, that... I mean, real time demo for you.
Amy (she/her): It happens.
Casey (she/her): Yeah,
Amy (she/her): Thank you. I wasn't, wasn't expecting it to go there
I was thinking about this topic this morning a little bit in addition to listening to 1980s TV theme songs. Um, but thinking about how it shows up for me,
now at this point in my career and in my life, where it shows up more for me is in relationship to people.
Am I being fair? Do I know all the context? Am I, what am I missing? then I won't maybe have a conversation that I need to have because I'm worried that I'm not, I've missed something in my- in the story I'm creating in my head. And so then I just decide, ugh, it's not worth having the conversation because it's, it's too complicated, or I might be wrong.
that applies to, um, just general relationships, but also, you know, when I'm teaching.
is the feedback that I'm giving fair, and do I know all the context and all of that? So that's why I tend to ask a lot of questions when I'm teaching, because I want my feedback to be, um, a fair representation of what the, the situation is.
So
Casey (she/her): And
Amy (she/her): that's, how I see it.
Casey (she/her): this was also a big problem for you when we first started working together in your client, in your, like, customer interactions. you'd, like, would be very flustered by an email, and I'm like, send them an answer."
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): "But what if I make them mad, and what if I don't," like, you know. Yeah,
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): That's definitely one that you've been
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): that is not necessarily a
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): anymore, but yeah, definitely was at one
Amy (she/her): No, well, it, it, I move through it a whole lot faster,
But there is the one or two that comes through every so often that I just have to... I, I now can laugh at them, or I can see how ridiculous they are, I don't have to entertain them as seriously as, as how I would've entertained them two years ago. I guess that's the best way to...
Casey (she/her): Yeah, that's a good
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
[00:10:52] Boy Scout Brain vs. MacGyver Brain
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Casey (she/her): so tell me about the Boy Scout Amy versus MacGyver Amy. Like I'm, I'm curious now to hear, you keep teasing us, 80s intro themes
Amy (she/her): I...
Casey (she/her): like share
Amy (she/her): Okay. All right. the other really concrete example of how I still, in my business and in my life, overthink things is when I'm traveling and, and particularly when I'm packing. generally when I'm packing, I'm going for, to an event.
So it's, it's all photography related. I gotta, you know, make sure I have all the things I need. And, um, so Boy Scout Amy is, lives by always be prepared.
So when I'm packing, it ki- it first starts out with whether or not I'm driving or flying. So if I'm driving, I have a big transit van and I can... The, the problem is I keep throwing stuff in 'cause I can take everything but the kitchen sink, and I can maybe even on some occasions fit the kitchen sink.
Casey (she/her): yeah
Amy (she/her): yeah.
So there's all sorts of things in my van that I never use or barely use, but they're there kind of just in case.
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): the, that's Boy Scout Amy. Um, and where Boy Scout Amy gets really frustrated is when I'm flying to an event, because then I have to pare it down to, like, the bare essentials.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): what lenses am I gonna take?
Can I take a tripod or not? Can I fit all that?Boy Scout Amy needs, like, three days of packing, and then I get to the point where I'm in the car driving to the airport, and Boy Scout Amy goes, "Okay, that's it.
I'm done. I'm out. I've done all the things." And, MacGyver Amy does show up at that point because now it's all problem-solving. Now it's whatever's gonna go wrong, can I fix it with a toothpick and duct tape?
Casey (she/her): Yes.
Amy (she/her): can I... 'Cause that's what MacGyver did.
Casey (she/her): Oh, yo
Amy (she/her): Um, and, and that's why I loved that show because it was so ridiculous, but it was so fun to watch MacGyver fix things with, you know, a stale granola bar and, um, Elmer's glue
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): on a hot air balloon.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): I can make a paste and I can... I don't know. It w- it was just the most ridiculous show.
Casey (she/her): Oh, yeah
Amy (she/her): I think that's, that's kinda how I approach the world. So Boy Scout Amy definitely can overthink, um, and then... But at this point has recognized when the job is done, when there is... You can't think anymore.
It just, it's just do.
Casey (she/her): yeah.
Amy (she/her): Um, so Boy Scout Amy steps aside and says, "Okay, MacGyver Amy, here you go. There's the show.
Casey (she/her): Yep.
Amy (she/her): You're in charge
Casey (she/her): But that's such an important skill to be able to have is, like, I think about people I know, like speaking to the travel thing, and this even used to be me, of the Boy Scout is the one packing the bag, and they can't turn that off. So even when they've packed, they've got in the airport, they're on the plane, there's still that like, "Oh my gosh, what did I forget?
What if I need this?" Like what if, what if it rains? What if there's a tsunami in the middle of the Arizona desert? Like, know, the brain is... You can get trapped into that overthinking that creates this anxiety, and you stay stuck in it. But then being able to like turn that off be like, "Okay, Scout did best she could. is here. We're gonna make do with what we have." And that I wanna highlight is a skill people can learn, is people think I am i- inherently going to... I am an, I am an overthinker, and so they just give into that anxiety. And so like, that's why you bring up the travel. This is one I've been working on for a couple years now. My husband travels quite a bit for work, so he knows how to live out of a suitcase for like a week or two at a time. And I have classically been an over packer and like it's, it's a two-day trip, I have 16 pairs of underwear 'cause you just don't know
Amy (she/her): Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm
Casey (she/her): know? And but it... I also have come to the point where I hate getting home from a trip and having to stand at baggage claim at 11:30 at night and wait for my fucking suitcase. so I've been working on, depending on the trip, like more and more flying carry-on only. And like it has been a practice, and the first couple of times I was so anxious like the whole trip, and now I can do it without. And once in a while I'm like, "Huh, I'm annoyed I don't have that one thing," or like, you know.
And so like it still bites me in the butt sometimes, but I don't worry about it anymore 'cause I practiced it, and I figured out some systems, and I have a little... You know, like
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): it in a way that like I can trust it this way, and I don't have to overthink about it now. But that took practice
Amy (she/her): MacGyver brain and Boy Scout brain have a meeting after the thing, and MacGyver brain goes, "Dude, add this to your packing list."
Casey (she/her): Yes.
Amy (she/her): I flew to an event in May and had forgotten an L bracket so that I could put my camera on my tripod, and MacGyver brain did brilliantly, let me tell you.
It even involved borrowing something from the video crew. But, um, I, worked out just fine, but, but MacGyver brain, after w- all was said and done, was like, "A, this is not a new thing. You should've known this, Boy Scout brain." Um, but B, add it to your packing list so the next time... 'Cause it's in the van. it's
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): of equipment that's in the van,
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): and, so I would've had it if, if I had driven.
But I had flown, and so... And it's a small enough thing, I could've easily brought it, and it would ma- would've made set-up day a whole lot easier.
[00:16:23] What the Data Actually Says
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Amy (she/her): But, um, so the thing that you, one of the f- the, the aha moments I remember having when working with you is talking about evidence, um, and the evidence for X, Y, or Z.
And MacGyver brain produces the evidence that I can trust myself.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): Scout brain still relies on the overthinking and the, um, the lists and the, the extreme organization
but the evidence comes from when I get thrown into a situation that seems impossible or seems like I, I have no idea what to do, and then MacGyver brain goes, "Hey, I got it. We got a pocketknife. What more do we need?"
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): so that's... Talk, talk about evidence, 'cause I think that's something I- at least it was a, a revelation to me, and I'm a science person, but yeah.
Casey (she/her): Yeah. I, I mean, sci- this is where it comes from is science. It's like, how do you prove something is after the experiment, you look at the evidence. What did we prove or disprove? And so a lot of times we go to, like, keep using the, the packing things. We're on the travel thing, is for me, the process of, like, switching from always having a checked bag to carry-on only, it made me anxious.
After the trip, I looked at it and I'm like, "Oh..." Like, actually, before I even started traveling carry-on only, like, still doing a checked bag, I'd get home and I'm like, "I have six outfits that I didn't even take out of the fucking suitcase." I have evidence that I have overpacked once again, you know? And so I kept seeing this pattern, especially when we can find patterns in our evidence, that I always have clothes I never wore.
I always have a pair of shoes I never wore. I always have hygiene products that I didn't actually end up needing. I always... You know, or I did forget something and I went to the store and bought a new one, so it was totally
Amy (she/her): That's a big one. Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): when I realized that, like, oh, I'm going to places that have grocery stores, I
Amy (she/her): Yes.
Casey (she/her): buy something if I forget it. Earth sh- earth-shattering for me. But, like...
Amy (she/her): right.
Casey (she/her): And so,
Amy (she/her): I, will ask myself that, "Hey, am I going to a place that has retail?" Um, yes? Okay, then quit worrying about it. Oh my God.
Casey (she/her): Yes. exactly. And so this, like, after action review, this after event check-in, this particular thing where I'm trying to, like, retrain myself, is I can see that I'm constantly over packing. Great, that means I can use less space.
And then I started traveling with a carry-on, and the first couple of times after the trip I checked in and I'm like, "Hey, did that work? I forgot X, Y, and Z." I now have, like... A part of how my husband and I do this is we both have a toiletry kit that is always stocked with everything. I'm
Amy (she/her): Yep.
Casey (she/her): apart my bathroom to find my shampoo and my deodorant.
I have a second one that stays in my toiletry kit that fits in my suitcase. solved. bracket. Like, it goes on the packing list. It's now on a list that you always refer
Amy (she/her): yes
Casey (she/her): won't get mixed next time.
Amy (she/her): it's the when I'm flying list because otherwise it lives in the van. So yeah,
Casey (she/her): Yeah. and especially something like that, that you've gotta pull from one source. And so, like, me, like the evidence helped me be able to transition the tactic. But then there's also times where, like, this, this speaks more to like learning how to trust yourself is... The cliche version is like you've already survived 100% of bad days that have been thrown at you, is... I, kinda hate the cliche, but it's also kind of really accurate. But it's
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): of like, I don't know, um, now my brain's stuck on traveling, and so like traveling alone I get really anxious 'cause I'm used to traveling with somebody. And so, like what evidence can I look back at? I'm like, "Well, I've done dozens of trips alone. Um, I know basic, like, safety." I did a trip to New York City and I'm like, "Ooh, as a little girl I shouldn't be out in the city alone."
And I'm like, "Mm, I got a cellphone. There's other people around." Like I know the evidence to look for to like verify that I know how to do this safely. And so we can use that evidence kind of any direction to prove I have done this thing before, so if it happens again, I will be okay. Or if
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): middle of the shit you can look up and be like, "Oh, okay, wait, no. I've solved problems before. The world didn't end. What can I do to
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): problem?" And that evidence can help us really reinforce and like kinda, it, sometimes it kinda like turns the brain back on. Instead of like making a decision based off emotion, we can check back into that evidence and kind of like the logical part of our brain back on and like look at past examples and figure
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): next action will be
Amy (she/her): I, I like the fact that you're using the word action because you're not talking about thinking. Oh, you're thinking about the evidence, but you're thinking about things that you have done in the past.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): not thinking about things that you thought about in the past, and I think that's such a big part of the overthinking is, is all we do is spin in our, in our head,
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): then we don't take action even when there are things that we could do
is this the right crop or, or is this crop better than that crop? Well, I don't know. I'm gonna go crop the photos those two different ways and see which one do I like better.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): can't think your way out of which is the best crop. You have to go do the crop on the photo
Casey (she/her): Exactly.
Amy (she/her): answer the question
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): or
Casey (she/her): is
Amy (she/her): come up with more questions, right?
Casey (she/her): Exactly. Yeah.
[00:21:52] Less Thinking, More Action
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Casey (she/her): So like I'm trying to think of a solution. Like off the top of my head, I think the only solution I'm coming up with to overthinking is to go fucking do something. Pick an option and go try it. I'm gonna start with a two-light kit 'cause it fits my budget better and I know I can still...
There's a photographer I love who uses a two-light kit. We're gonna start there and see how that goes for me. At least it lets me make a decision and go buy a kit and start shooting, and we'll see what happens. And then I can decide from there. It's, yeah, go crop the damn photo. Go move your camera over to that angle and see if that picture turns out.
But like I, I have to wonder, like for you with the, the dog sports, you have, you've been doing this for so long now, it's probably not even a conscious thought.
But we can stand here all day and talk about which is the best angle on the weave poles, or we can just go take two pictures from two different spots and see what's gonna give us what we want from the dogs
Amy (she/her): Yeah. We, and we do that. We do test shots.
So rather than them saying, "Well, we got this thing with the weave poles," or, "We've got this thing with the jump and, and the A-frame," they show me,
so from here we can get this stuff, and from here we can get that stuff. We don't have a dog in the picture in the test shot, but I can still-- where the experience comes in is I, I know the angles.
I can imagine where the dog is gonna be.
Casey (she/her): Yeah. I, it, if,
Amy (she/her): but I-
Casey (she/her): is the experience of, like, the dog's coming out of the poles and I know they're gonna turn left for the next obstacle,
Amy (she/her): Correct.
Casey (she/her): be too far right of the last pole. Like,
Amy (she/her): Correct.
Casey (she/her): stuff. But
Amy (she/her): Something, yeah
Casey (she/her): s- a, a new shooter who's by themselves shooting a local event for the first time. You could spend all day just standing in the corner of the arena and never take a single
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): worrying about where's the right spot to take a picture, or go hustle your butt around the arena and try a bunch of things and see what happens. And then afterwards, I'm like, "This is objectively a terrible photo," but if the focus had caught better, if I had, taken the original picture further away so I had more cropping option.
Like, I'm already looking at it not just from this is terrible, but what is the action review that I can do to gather some evidence that need to away, I need to be closer, I need to be to the left, I need to learn more about lighting, I need to, like, out what the fuck to do with shutter speed.
I can sit here and watch YouTube videos and think about it all day, or I can go do it, and even if it
Amy (she/her): Do it.
Casey (she/her): this is the other part of go do it, a lot of times go do it still means you get it wrong, quote-unquote wrong, but now you have more information. Now you can make another decision.
Now you can realize what part of the information you're missing or you need to learn or you need to practice more or whatever
Amy (she/her): sometimes I find that there is... You can't do the action. So in photography, you can go take the photo, you know, make the changes to the settings, whatever. Um, when I travel, um, I can make plans until I'm cross-eyed, but I also end up worrying about all the things that could go wrong, especially when I'm flying.
A little bit when I'm driving, but more so when I'm flying. Well, what if I don't make my connection, and what if I've got, I've gotta make sure that this thing happens on this timeline and X, Y, Z. And I can get stuck in reviewing all the details. Boy Scout brain is like, "We got this. We- it's all organized."
And MacGyver brain's like, "But it could blow up at any moment.
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): What are you gonna do then?" And it's like, it's almost like MacGyver brain is, is being a little too proactive
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): like not being patient enough. It's okay, MacGyver, just step back because we can't... We don't know if it's a bomb or an Amazon delivery.
Casey (she/her): Yes. Yeah.
Amy (she/her): We, we just don't know yet.
Casey (she/her): Yes. Schrodin- Schrodinger's package, yeah, starting to obsess about
Amy (she/her): Yes
Casey (she/her): before we've even like op- yeah, that's ... So do you have, I have thoughts on this, but I've, like, do you have a way that you handle your brain when it's starting to do that?
Amy (she/her): Um, not anything s- too terribly specific other than I'm finally getting better at recognizing it.
Casey (she/her): There you go.
Amy (she/her): because al- that's always the first problem, I
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): is, not knowing. 'Cause for years and years, decades, I, I would just spiral on that, and I would feel it in my body. Like, it's like if
I, if I held every muscle as tight as possible, I could make sure that things didn't fall apart.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): I'm learning to just let go of that and recognizing when I have to wait for something else to happen. Um, so my trip to Alaska the last time I went, um, I, I had planned as much as I could. I had, you know, all the, all the details were there, and then I made the conscious choice to say, "Okay, just you've done the things.
Now let it go and let it happen."
Casey (she/her): Yep
Amy (she/her): so I don't know if you got more to add to that. Please.
Casey (she/her): y- yes. I mean, that's the big one is, I mean, the f- the first step is recognizing it. First, for people who categorize themselves as over thinkers or who ha- have anxiety, 'cause a lot of times I find that anxiety is consciously or unconsciously driven by a level of this, like, obsessive thought pattern. First of all, it's being able to recognize it. the sensation in your body, like I said, I sometimes feel really frantic, like everything in my body is moving 1,000 miles an hour. And so if I can feel that, and I'm like, "Oop, shit, red flag," pause, then there's that kind of processing, "Is this something I can take action on and go figure out the solution to? Okay, no, I can't in this situation. I have to just wait and see how things play out." And so sometimes just recognizing that will dissipate it. And so, like,
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): "MacGyver, sit down, shut up, we have to just wait until somebody opens the package, and we'll go from there."
Amy (she/her): Right.
Casey (she/her): like, a deep breath. And so sometimes just consciously acknowledging that pattern of thought and like, "I can't change this until we get to a problem," will dissipate it. The other one, this is where I'm so glad you had brought this up earlier, this is where evidence can come in. And so
Amy (she/her): Okay
Casey (she/her): I will walk myself through like, "Okay, what if I miss my connection? I have missed 1,000 connections and I have managed it every time. like, I know that I will run as fast as I can to catch the connection.
I know if I miss it, I will go talk to the Delta gate agent. I know I will call my husband and cry because I'm frustrated because I missed my flight." This is where evidence can come in of, "Oh, I've handled a similar situation before. I know I have the tools to handle this again." Or flip side, sometimes when I was newer to traveling, especially like long travel by myself through airports, um, and for me there's an element of my brain injury and, like, how I process the world that sometimes traveling alone gets big feelings. so,
Amy (she/her): Uh-huh.
Casey (she/her): that's okay, and I don't know what to do, my husband does, and I
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): hate that I depend on a man so much sometimes, but here we are. But I can call him. This man is unfazed by anything that happens in airports, and I can call him and I'm saying, you know, "Okay, my flight got canceled. Here are the two options I have.
I don't know how to pick which one is better, um, because all I'm seeing right now is the overthinking, the cascade of problems this is gonna create for me." And so having
Amy (she/her): 嗯。
Casey (she/her): person or
Amy (she/her): 嗯哼。
Casey (she/her): or I have cried at more than one Delta agent in my life, and have had some amazing gate agents square me away.
If you don't have a husband, there's a gate agent. So, like, is that, like Who can help you figure out the
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): help- Hold up the situation till you can get to the next action. Evidence that you have handled situations like this in the past. Um, and so like...
Amy (she/her): Or even for, for me it's not so much about... Sorry, I'm gonna...
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): Hopefully you remember that thought. Um,
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): for me it's not so much about have I done
this before, but it's about has anybody ever experienced this before? And we're talking about flying, so let's conti- Because I, there are so many things I've never done, and I g- that's where my anxiety comes from, is I don't know how to handle this because I haven't done it before.
But then I ha- I, I finally have this trick of I stop to think about has anybody ever missed a connection before?
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): So does the airline know how to handle that? Well, yes. Does it feel like I'm asking stupid questions of the gate agent? It feels stupid to me, but they've heard it 1,000 times, and whether or not they're annoyed at the fact that they're hearing this question for the thousand and one, thousand and first time,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): it is not a unique question. I am not that special. Um, I am not that unique, and so somebody is gonna be able to tell me what I need to do next, even if they're gonna be annoyed at me. I, that doesn't bother me.
is this a known situation to somebody else? If yes, great.
Then I, I'm, I can, I can tell MacGyver to just take a seat again for a minute and we'll be okay, so
Casey (she/her): love that one. That's such a great reframe, 'cause yeah, there is hardly a unique experience left on this planet, and so there will be somebody who the tool, has the phone number, has the resource,
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): has already cried about this, like whatever that can help
Amy (she/her): Right.
Casey (she/her): you in, in a situation. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I was gonna say too, and I think this kind of applies for that one where like haven't done this before, but somebody else has, is also sometimes these like moments of action really ugly. So like in the traveling thing, sometimes it is me crying to a gate agent, and I'm a crier. I have come to terms with that.
I don't give a shit anymore. Like, I don't care if they're annoyed with me. I don't care if people are judging me 'cause I'm a grown woman crying in the airport. Do not care. It's how I process the world sometimes. so like sometimes it's ugly, but I take action. And so like looking at the photography, to like bring it kind of back to that, is like sometimes the results are shitty photos.
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): What can I learn from that? Great, I took the action. It failed. Uh, now I have more information, and I can reevaluate the situation, and I can make a different decision next time instead of sitting there thinking and trying to get the perfect
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): The light kits, I have some lighting.
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm
Casey (she/her): I'm pretty sure they're not the right lights, but I need to prove that to myself. So I set them up, and I prove that they don't do what I need them to do. Now I have that piece of information. Now I can go on to the next step of this process of making a decision. So sometimes the action is really ugly, and I wanna highlight that because I think sometimes we talk about like, when we're like overthinking in that perfectionist element or like the imposter syndrome thing, we're like we're trying to prevent the ugly, we're trying to prevent the pain, we're trying to like make sure we have it all figured out in our brain so that it goes right. Uh, babes, sometimes it's still gonna go wrong. That's okay
Amy (she/her): We're trying to skip steps. We're trying to get to the, the, the final boss
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): without going through the, the tutorial for how to use the, the controls of the game.
Casey (she/her): Exactly
Amy (she/her): gamer analogies when I have no experience doing
Casey (she/her): That is funny.
Amy (she/her): it? It is weird.
Casey (she/her): It makes sense though. You're,
Amy (she/her): Maybe I just,
Casey (she/her): you're spot on
Amy (she/her): maybe I'm a wannabe. Maybe I just need to get into gaming.
I don't know.
Casey (she/her): I maybe. Yep, I've come to the dark side. I can make recommendations. I can ruin your life.
Amy (she/her): I bet you can.
Casey (she/her): Yep
So where that w- where the gaming thing was going was,
Amy (she/her): so sometimes, so sometimes we have to make things simpler. Like, I c- I still even taking action doesn't work because I still end up with so many things that are going wrong that I can't figure out even where to, to, to go to, to... I can't figure out what the evidence is that I even got.
So I think of, you know, photographing birds in flight, um, comes to mind in this situation. So birds in flight are really hard, and the smaller the bird, the harder it is. So if you're trying to photograph, um, swallows in flight, like you had talked about last time,
Casey (she/her): yeah
Amy (she/her): that's super hard. So the best bird that I alw- when people are trying to learn how to do birds in flight, I say go find gulls.
And they're not just on the coast, they are all over. Go find some gulls to ph- to photograph in flight because they're big and they move in nice smooth paths. They don't make, you know, they're not like a peregrine falcon that's gonna suddenly dive bomb on its prey.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): make really nice, smooth gliding, uh, you know, circles and loops and arcs and whatever in the sky.
They're really easy to follow. They're white as opposed to being, you know, black, so it's a easy target for your camera, easy for you to see, um, a really good place to start. And if, so if you're struggling with, "I don't even know what to troubleshoot," you can back off the difficulty, and then if you still can't, aren't getting it with the, um, you know, the, the gulls, then, then go back to even more basic and can you photograph birds that are just sitting there?
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): You know, maybe watch those, those gulls land and, and grab a french fry,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): um, you know, 'cause they're gonna do that. They're gonna land on the ground. They're gonna... or a post or whatever. Go find one sitting on a post
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): and can you photograph that? And if you can't photograph something that's on the ground, then we need to talk about more basic skills in terms of, um, how are you, you know, in terms of your photography.
So take it back some levels before you just jump into birds in flight, swallows that are, you know, dipping all over the place. So
Casey (she/her): I'm known for having a little bit of a uh go bigger go home personality trait which I'm learning trying to
Amy (she/her): reali- I'm realizing that. I am watching that.
Casey (she/her): Ooh but like I love this
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): I A few weeks ago I set up a hummingbird feeder and of course I want a picture of a hummingbird in flight but the thing is the size of my thumb and it moves at 1000 miles an hour and they move forward backward The like the way they move is so illogical sometimes And so partly I've just been watching them a lot So I I'm now getting a sense of a pattern of like how they come into the feeder and how they come out So I've got some
Amy (she/her): Yes
Casey (she/her): up a camera in a different spot But even that like the first couple of days they were visiting my favorite shots my best shots out of those days they were sitting in the tree I gave up on trying to get the shot in flight and I got them sitting in the
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): start watching like right as they take off or we were talking about how um is it raptors like certain birds will poop right before they take
Amy (she/her): Yes.
Casey (she/her): not uncommonly
Amy (she/her): Yep
Casey (she/her): learning those behaviors And so maybe I don't get them in flight but I get them in launch and I learn how to start to catch that first part of the movement you know is Yeah I love that thing of build backwards
Amy (she/her): You want, you want another idea about the, the hummingbirds in flight?
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): do a focus trap, an actual literal focus trap. if w- you're working from a feeder,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): only approaching it, they're only getting their food from one place. If you've got a feeder that has multiple ports on it, block off, you know, like tape over the ones that,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): so that there's only one spot, and focus on that, and get them as they're coming in or leaving, because they're gonna approach on a pretty straight.
They're gonna, as long as they're coming in, you know, perpendicular to the, the,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): the camera lens, they're gonna be in that plane of focus at some point probably. Fire it off at, you know, your 30 or whatever maximum frames a second you have, and you might get one or two then and there, so. But yeah, use a, an actual focus trap
one of the things that I talk about with students if they're doing, um, scouting a location for a, a, a dog portrait that they wanna do, I say take a stuffed animal along or take something that's about the same size as the subject you're gonna be shooting, um, and photograph that in the spot that you think is gonna work 'cause you, you don't
If you have a client coming, you can't take the client and go scout and then have them come back and do it for real.
Um
and sometimes your own dog may or may not be well-behaved enough to, you know, be a stand-in. Thank you, Spy. Um, but like Spy could never be a stand-in.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): um, but take, take a stuffed animal or take, I don't know, anything similar size that can give you the i- a sense of proportion and, and how that is all gonna s- um, set up.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): then it's something that's not moving. You don't have to train it. You don't even have to give it treats. It just has to sit there and look pretty. And actually it could look ugly too, so, um
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): just needs to be the object in the place where you think you wanna put your subject. So there are so many ways to simplify and then you can take that actionand figure out how to move forward instead of just sitting there and keeping it as a thought experiment.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): because thought experiments are lovely,
Casey (she/her): Mmhmm
Amy (she/her): don't, they don't solve anything. Um, at a certain point it is all about doing rather than thinking
Casey (she/her): Yeah Which I do think that also kind of references a point that I don't know that we've quite directly talked about is that
Amy (she/her): Okay.
Casey (she/her): all deep thinking is overthinking
Amy (she/her): True
Casey (she/her): is an element of especially photography like that requires thinking that requires learning I think this is something as like a newer photographer I was aware of this but not to the extent of like how much there is to learn about the camera about composition And while certain composition rules across some kind of don't And how you Like so much to learn And so that balance of planning a shot that Ooh that was another big realization for me was how much work I was watching some YouTube videos and I think
Amy (she/her): 嗯
Casey (she/her): also in one of your coaching calls about Somebody was talking about like how they had like literally like sketched out a shot on paper and they're like It was like Wait what We're drawing pictures of things we wanna go take photos of No
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): And so like
Amy (she/her): and we can, we can talk about sketch shots.
and I borrowed that from another photographer, and I really like it because it kind of connects to other art forms.
So if you think about a writer does not sit down and write their book start to finish, Word perfect, hand it off to the publisher, and it goes, "Hey, there's your New Yor- New York Times bestseller." They spent, they outline, they plan, they s- they, um, they draft.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): they've done, you know, even if you don't talk about an outline, you just talk about draft, the number of drafts they go through.
Um, and then, you know, painting is, painting and drawing is more literally sketching. So
Casey (she/her): Mmhmm
Amy (she/her): the, f- the artists of the world do not create a, a piece of, a masterpiece with no preparation and no thought into how they're gonna do it.
Casey (she/her): Yeah I it makes
Amy (she/her): if you
Casey (she/her): but
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): thought
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): part of the process
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): of how people are coming up with the idea The idea you know scouting Th this goes to the scouting thing too of like going out and having a sense of where are you going Where can you run the client through Where can you put the dog Um you know h like all of these things are part of photography especially if you're looking for a certain caliber or style or level of photography If you're looking to do this professionally you kinda have to meet this certain threshold and there's a lot of preparation and problemsolving and evaluating and everything from gear to location to the human photography like
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): you posing positions like how to like
Amy (she/her): Oh, sure.
Casey (she/her): And so like on the fly you can like pull it up and be like I have a couple and we're at the beach and it'll give you like five poses to like add to your photo shoot Um which I've never had any interest in taking pictures of humans so why I keep getting this ad I'm not quite sure But um but the
Amy (she/her): but it applies to dogs too. I
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): when I'm doing portrait stuff, I always go blank in terms of how should I pose these two dogs. I don't know. So one, one thing I, uh, I had a student struggling with it, and I had them, I suggested that they write it on a, a little Post-It note or a little card, and then tape that to the back of their camera underneath the flippy screen so that they could pull out their flippy screen, rather than having to pull out your phone and look at an app or even look at a list on your phone, if you c- like, literally put it on the back of your camera
Casey (she/her): a
Amy (she/her): underneath your flippy screen.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't do it, but if I did more portrait work, I absolutely would do that because I'd be like, "Oh, right, I haven't done the, the, uh, senior portrait pose yet," or the
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): catching the bouquet pose or I don't know, whatever.
Casey (she/her): exactly Yeah no that's a great idea That's a great use of that little spot yeah Some sort of
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): But but you
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): all of that stuff there's so much thinking that goes into photography and so that's where like as somebody who likes to be an expert the first time I try something I'm working on it My therapist and I are talking about it But like there is a huge learning curve There is lots to explore and find your style and master and rules to learn and rules to break There's so much thinking and I So I wanna make s it clear that like this isn't Don't think about it Just go out and snap the shot It's
Amy (she/her): No
Casey (she/her): that difference between when we are researching me realizing I need to learn more about lighting lighting setups and how to create the effects I want in my f portrait photography versus for hours trying to decide if I need a twolight or fourlight set and not taking any photos And so like I wanna make sure we highlight that that there is time to
Amy (she/her): Right.
Casey (she/her): of And I so far a lot of the photographers I have been around are very analytical people who like to get deep into things
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Yeah.
Casey (she/her): And that's okay Know where your tipping point is where that is keeping you from taking action on the thing that you said that you love and want to be doing
Amy (she/her): right. Um, I think there's an element of, to extend this even further, so if we're stuck in this spiral, um, first go take an action. If it's too complicated, break it down, make it easier. Um, recognize that yes, photography does take thought and is, you know, not all thinking is overthinking. But at some point you have to raise the white flag too and go, "Hey, I need help."
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): I think that's, you know, that is exactly why you and I are here today is because I went, "I surrender. I cannot do this on my own anymore. I need somebody who has a, you know, has this figured out or at least has it figured out, you know, is just enough above me."
Casey (she/her): Yep exactly
Amy (she/her): Yeah,
Casey (she/her): Yeah it yeah it doesn't necessarily even need to be go finding an expert expert but same Like can look at my photos I have a photo that I'm gonna send you soon that I know there's something off about and I have spent too much time doing various crops and edits and trying to figure out why the composition feels wrong on it I either throw the fucking photo away or I ask a professional what I'm missing here and I won't let myself open Lightroom until I've talked to you about it cause I'm overthinking this photo And yeah so th
Amy (she/her): yeah.
Casey (she/her): is that getting an outside yeah source
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): making a yeah making a
[00:46:15] You're Not an Overthinker, You're Overthinking
---
Amy (she/her): is there a way to change the language, at least for us here on this podcast, to... I, I really don't like the, the phrase, "I'm overthinking this," because I think it,
Casey (she/her): Mmhmm
Amy (she/her): versus, you know, label thing, people just kind of sink into the label of, "Well, I'm an overthinker and I'm just overthinking this."
And then that, that shuts everything down.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): and, and a way to change the way we talk about it, I don't know. I don't know if there's an answer to that or not
Casey (she/her): I I think there kind of is I mean I think that at some level is the point of like this episode specifically but like kind of our
Amy (she/her): Bro.
Casey (she/her): as a whole is we can't change language if we're not talking about it And so catching yourself I no longer identify as an overthinker That is something I used to think about myself of Oh my gosh I just overthink things And so what we say about ourselves is what our brain and our nervous system defaults to And I could give a whole lecture about like identity versus action and how we start to create an identity that Cause a lot of people have an ident like and our identities don't match that creates this dissonance and we get uncomfortable and so often we change our identity to match our behavior So instead of learning how
Amy (she/her): Okay
Casey (she/her): an overthinker it's easier to just say I'm an overthinker and keep doing the behavior Versus I no longer think I'm an overthinker I have let go of that identity I don't hold that identity anymore I do sometimes overthink And so being able to like see that difference and recognize when I'm doing it and all the things we've talked about is recognize when I'm doing it and like change the thought or go take an action or whatever the thing is But like we don't talk about these things as something that's changeable as a society Whereas here
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): that conversation of like it's not inherently bad to be an overthinker unless you're using that as like an identity crutch to keep you from changing and growing into who you want to or could be I
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): saying this my brain is like the same thing with like procrastination like I With the ADHD coaching
Amy (she/her): Yes
Casey (she/her): Oh I'm just a pro I can't do anything without procrastinating With an attitude like that absolutely you know
Amy (she/her): Okay, then what are we doing here? Yeah.
Casey (she/her): exactly you know the the procrastinator I'm a messy person I'm just a chaotic person
Amy (she/her): I'm a perfectionist. Perfectionism.
Casey (she/her): Um I yeah the we haven't had the imposter syndrome episode yet but like I I the I have imposter syndrome I don't belong here I'm not good enough of that
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): our nervous system is going to match the language we use and when we don't it creates dissonance inside of our system that is really uncomfortable And so then you have to do the work this is where Amy hires me of like how do I grow out of this dissonance You could have stayed in that dissonance You could have learned how to You could have continued to just accept that I'm somebody who um doesn't have good boundaries and I overthink things But you didn't like that in a dissonance and you made the decision to change the behavior to change the identity instead of settling the identity into the behavior
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): think
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): of
Amy (she/her): Okay.
Casey (she/her): I think it's o like
Amy (she/her): That's good s-
Casey (she/her): world it boils down to like I think the language of I'm this is acceptable because I think overthinking is a very real and valid thing and especially in a world where we have so much information and it's so easy to end up in a spiral I think catching people who label themselves as I am an that's the language that I would love to break because you don't have to be If you don't like it we can
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): Um
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): think there is a time and a place where like that's the right language but making sure that that's the right language versus that's a pattern or behavior or identity that we don't need to hold onto Thank you for
Amy (she/her): No, I love that. Yes. No, that's, that was awesome. so one of the thing that comes, things that comes up for me as you're talking about that is, I mean, w- how it kind of sounds is you can just not be an overthinker.
You can like tell yourself to stop overthinking and you won't overthink anymore. then the, the slippery slope is, well, I can just tell myself not to be anxious anymore, and I can tell myself not to be depressed anymore, and
how does that fit into this conversation?
Casey (she/her): That is such a great point and I'm so glad you brought that up Let me grab a new soapbox to get up on Um th this is this is some of my
Amy (she/her): I love your soapboxes.
Casey (she/her): my problem with like social media content when we take complex things and we make them 60second clips is it's not as simple as You are absolutely correct It's not as simple as I'm just gonna stop being an overthinker These are things we can practice and as we practice we create evidence to change and as we become comfortable and trust that evidence and change our nervous system and our like underlying unconscious core identity start to shift to match So for a really simple example was my previously talking about switching to being somebody who travels pretty much carryon only That took a year That took several flights where I was insanely anxious that I did not have enough underwear packed But along the way it wasn't just as simple as like Oh I'm just k I'm just not checking a bag anymore It is every time I travel I look at the logistics of this trip Can I feasibly pack just carryon Cause sometimes if you're going to Alaska in the winter you're not traveling carryon only Like you're taking
Amy (she/her): No.
Casey (she/her): cause you need the big bulky clothes
Amy (she/her): nevermind the camera part, just the clothing in general. Correct.
Casey (she/her): exactly And so like but this was this conscious effort of like I want to change this behavior I had to keep repeating the behavior but looking what could change And then I started making that change and I was anxious about it but I showed myself each time that it worked And now it's something like that I can do relatively easy it's not that I'm just gonna stop overthinking it's um okay I caught myself overthinking I'm gonna get out there and take an action and then afterwards be conscious about the fact that okay I took an action It gave me this information which helped break the overthinking cycle I don't have to overthink And a lot of this a lot of this kind of stuff boils down to Trying to think how to say this It boils down to putting conscious thought into unconscious behavior Is dealing with anxiety dealing with overthinking dealing with um selfsabotaging behaviors with imposter syndrome with perfectionism you have to first become aware that you have the pattern of behavior or the pattern of thought and then you have to make a decision to change it and then you have to start catching yourself halfway through the action time I ever told you to set a boundary in an email you didn't still spiraled and still had all the feelings and then sent the email and then you're like Okay I didn't die The world didn't blow up Great Cool Cool cool Piece of evidence File that away And you did that 8000 more times and now you can just Now you just trust this
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): or this particular reply is safe and you do it
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): was a whole transition of like we had to catch the thoughts We had to acknowledge that we're having the thoughts We have to choose a different thought We have to practice that different thought and sit with the
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): that And
Amy (she/her): And you had to remind me of this process more than once.
Casey (she/her): Oh my gosh yes And
Amy (she/her): it wasn't...
Casey (she/her): and
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): I I do this like day in and day out for a living for years now and
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): at a meeting uh two nights ago and a different coach is running this group Um she busted it out bust out one of these like worksheets of like how to do this like behavior identity change stuff I was
Amy (she/her): Okay.
Casey (she/her): Son of a bitch Like I haven't been doing this for myself I know this stuff and she's putting my
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): back at me And so yes this is also like our entire how humans survive anthropologically neurologically We are designed for status quo We are designed to maintain homeostasis Anything that takes you out of that could be a threat And so change is hard and it takes intention and it takes your nervous system Like it's gonna yank you back to that base point multiple times before you get enough evidence you get enough practice your nervous system gets strong enough that it can not get yanked back
Amy (she/her): Hmm.
Casey (she/her): the systems get r gets rocked
Amy (she/her): An- another thing I remember you talking about with me multiple times, 'cause it takes multiple times, um, is the idea that the nervous system lags behind the conscious thoughts. Like...
Casey (she/her): Yes
the way our brain works like the prefrontal cortex the s the smart part of our brain the logical part of our brain it can process things and understand things that our nervous system isn't on board with yet So I um I'm trying to think of an example I know it is I logically know that it's safe to set a boundary with a client who is being too pushy about something after a photo shoot I'm kind of trying to make something up off the top of my
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): I know it's safe to set the boundary Logically I know it is within my rights it's within my contract that I can say this to the client that I am in the right Like know all that logically my nervous system is screaming because I don't want to upset a client because I have a history of you know we all have like relationship history and trauma growing up Like boundaries for millennials whoof that's a whole workshop Um and so
Amy (she/her): Well we need to do two then because it needs to be boundaries for Gen X
Casey (she/her): Oh yeah yeah
Amy (she/her): and then boundaries for... So,
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): okay, are you,
Casey (she/her): You're
Amy (she/her): you forgetting Gen X like everybody does?
Casey (she/her): I do forget Gen X
Amy (she/her): I'm sorry.
Casey (she/her): young
Amy (she/her): sorry
Casey (she/her): with us elder millennials there's there's a little
Amy (she/her): Okay.
Casey (she/her): of us here
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): cause I relate to Gen X almost more than
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): I'm a very elder millennial so
Amy (she/her): You are, yes. Yeah
Casey (she/her): millennial I often am thinking of my my Gen X brethren But like there so there is this like this is the thing I see with a lot of my clientswe understand the power of boundaries We understand that we are within our rights to do this We know we want this for ourselves Our our our entire logical brain is on board but our nervous system is freaking the fuck out And so we have to do it despite it being uncomfortable and revisit it and mark down that evidence I my therapist has me literally I have a running list in my notes app of it it's titled um Proof My Brain Is Lying to Me it's these little moments where I write down evidence that people do like me they do like my social media content they do think I'm smart and pretty and you know all the things And I have to again back to the thing this is a practice am compiling that evidence and over time if you keep doing this work over time your nervous system will catch up It will understand It will start to process more in line with your brain So like when you send a reply email to a client who may or may or may not be annoyed with you you don't write the story in your brain anymore and spiral and get anxious You just write the email But how many times did it take for your
Amy (she/her): A lot.
Casey (she/her): to match what your brain already knew about this particular part of
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): So yeah Yeah
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): system takes a lot more It's what keeps you alive It is what keeps you from touching a hot stove once and learning It's what keeps you to know to run away from the sabertoothed tiger Our nervous system people talk about the lizard brain or the monkey brain it is wired to keep you safe and alive it takes a lot more effort to teach that part of you that actually I don't have to run away from this thing
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Yeah Whoof.
[00:59:42] Closing the Loop
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Amy (she/her): All right, so let's end this in, with another technique for, um, how to get out of overthinking by talking about closing the loop
Casey (she/her): So yes closing the loop is such a important part of this too an open loop is where we don't have the answer So um Sometimes it's
Amy (she/her): talked about it already in terms of when you can't take an action because you're waiting for the next thing to happen, right? Is that
Casey (she/her): the loop is open cause we've chosen not to take the action and we're just staying in the loop Sometimes the
Amy (she/her): Okay
Casey (she/her): open because we can't take the next action Um m my brain I've been listening to a lot about opening and closing loops lately in a marketing context In social media you'll notice a lot of times somebody in the first five seconds of a video will say something about like Oh but around for point number three cause it's the best Or they'll ask a
Amy (she/her): Yes
Casey (she/her): rhetorically but they won't answer it That's opening a loop is we've created this like of information and now our brain is like Ah but what's the answer What's the answer What's the answer That's an open loop So closing the loop is like how do we get to the answer And closing
Amy (she/her): Okay
Casey (she/her): is typically what will break the overthinking process
Amy (she/her): for me, closing the loop is, um, in terms of the travel, is when I get on the road. Like, when I'm actually starting the travel feels like it closes a loop.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): that's why Boy Scout brain just kinda goes, "Oh, great, I'm done. I can sit back and relax."
Casey (she/her): a lot of your coaching calls is you're just helping them
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): that no you have all of the information you have tried all of the options Like yes you are correct you are at the end of this particular photo's journey
Amy (she/her): Okay, my brain is fried, so obviously I think that's a sign that we need to just kinda wrap this up.
Casey (she/her): Yes Yep
Amy (she/her): uh, any closing thoughts?
Casey (she/her): So yeah I think I mean let's ha ha ha let's close the loop on this episode We have covered so much fucking ground today and I love
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): of it But if you catch yourself overthinking that's okay Identify it in your body figure out where you can take action or figure out how you can let go of the thought figure out how to close that loop It's not inherently bad to think it's keeping you stuck and it's keeping you from taking photos that's icky We wanna go take more photos So that's what we're leaving you with you today That's gonna That's how we're gonna close this loop and package it all up Um and we will see you next week for another episode And as always in the show notes you can find The Focus Trap on all of the social media platforms thefocustrap and there are links to find Amy and I and the work we do um down in the show mo show notes if you wanna ffind out more about any of that and we will see you next week