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Some Future Day evaluates technology at the intersection of culture & law.Â
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Join Marc Beckman and his esteemed guests for insider knowledge surrounding how you can use new technologies to positively impact your life, career, and family. Marc Beckman is Senior Fellow of Emerging Technologies and an Adjunct Professor at NYU, CEO of DMA United, and a member of the New York State Bar Association’s Task Force on Cryptocurrency and Digital Assets.   Â
Marc Beckmen: All right. Jon, swab, director, writer, producer, and so many more things that you do creatively. It's incredible. It's such a pleasure and honor to have you on Some Future Day. How are you today?
John Swab: I'm great, Mark. Thanks for having me.
Marc Beckmen: Good, good. So I'm looking at, um, the general sentiment of creativity in society. [00:03:00] And I think you're an interesting person to ask this question. Has the public become satisfied with mediocrity or mediocre art now?
John Swab: yes, I think so, Marc I think most people, I mean, there's so much content being thrust upon us that, uh, you know, it's, it's way more about quantity than quality nowadays.
Marc Beckmen: So like, is it a cultural thing? Like, I look at art connected to, you know, the broader concept of culture and it's kind of alarming to me. I, I agree with you, John I think we've reached this, um, phase of mediocrity in art and creativity. Like, what's happening to our culture? That we've hit um, this point.
John Swab: Uh, I think. You know, to me, it's that people are afraid to take risks now. I think, um, things have been, become so, like, profit driven, and specifically in film, like, Wall Street driven, quarterly driven, quarterly earnings [00:04:00] driven, that, you know, it's kind of made creatives and companies, like, uh, afraid to step out of the box and try things.
Um, you know, it's, it's led to a lot of homogenized art. Um, and it's led to, you know, people kind of just recycling old ideas. Um, you know, as you see with, uh, the superhero content and, uh, You know, the endless amount of reboots. Um, I think in addition to that, culturally, people are afraid to push the envelope and get cancelled or get in trouble.
you know, I think maybe with the exception of comedy, stand up comedy, every other form of art has suffered from, you know, this kind of, uh, cancel culture, if you will.
Marc Beckmen: to jump forward a little bit, I was going to touch on this, but you kind of mentioned corporate America, you know, owning a piece of creativity and the arts, Noel Gallagher from Oasis, um, said something along that line, which is really interesting. I pulled the [00:05:00] quote, just, I didn't realize we were going to go here, but it's good. Labels know what people want. Because they can see what people want, because they can see the numbers, and the streams, and the likes, and all that kind of a thing. So they give the people what they want. But people don't know what they want. They're fucking idiots. Customers are idiots. 99 percent of them are fucking idiots. The consumer didn't fucking want Jimi Hendrix. Well, they got him, and it changed the world. So it's taken away that magic, I think. It's destroyed innocence, and it spoils things. So, how do you feel about Noel Gallagher's quote? Because it's kind of interesting. Labels know what people want because they can see what people want, because they can see the numbers and the streams and the likes and all that kind of thing. Is that kind of what you're talking about? Corporate Americas or corporate influence on the [00:06:00] arts?
John Swab: I think so. I think so. I don't know. Um, I give the audience more credit than that. I think people do want new things. I think they do want, you know, fresh, exciting new content. But I think if you You know, don't give them the opportunity. They will accept whatever you put in front of them, um, by and large.
And I think, you know, a lot of the content that's out there is evidence of that, where it's, you know, it's not challenging anybody. And, um, you know, I don't think people naturally want to be challenged, but I think if you can do it in an exciting and entertaining way, they're, they're welcome to it. So.
Marc Beckmen: But can you blame the audience? Like, how would they know what the next trend will be? What the next interesting story would be? Like, do they really know what to look for in a film, for example? Like, I don't know if I can predict what I want to see in a film. This, this autumn or this coming winter, I might not be, um, on [00:07:00] top of different types of trends and things that are happening in society.
So can you blame the audience?
John Swab: No, I don't think you can blame the audience. I mean, you can blame, I think, the studios and, uh, you know, and, and the, the corporations. If you look back, you know, into film history, specifically into the seventies and then again in the nineties, risk were, risk takers were championed, you know, there were all these, uh, these independent filmmakers that were, you know, plucked and given opportunities.
And if they failed, they were given other opportunities to try again. So, and it led to a lot of really exciting and innovative, um, you know, projects. Movies. So, and, and the audience responded to it. it I think we're in a retraction era right now in terms of films where because of this kind of streaming war and this battle for eyeballs and, uh, people not really knowing what the film industry is becoming, as theatrical kind of goes away or, you know, at least, severely [00:08:00] is, um, um, impacted, but you know, by COVID and then by the strikes and now by streaming, I think with the uncertainty of where the industry is going, it makes these companies that much more weary of taking any kind of risk.
and they kind of, you know, go back to what they think is safe, which is regurgitating old content. and, you know, I think as we've seen, it's, it's trending down, so I don't know that that is the, uh, the safest route for them or the smartest thing to do. I think this is the time to take risk, you know, um, and, and I think you'll be rewarded for it.
Marc Beckmen: Creatives are so important, um, in so many different ways. It's not just about entertainment, right? In a way, But for creatives, humankind wouldn't propel forward, we wouldn't innovate, we wouldn't create societies that build wealth and find innovation with regards to health and impact people's lives with longevity.
I mean, it's all [00:09:00] connected to creativity. So how can artists, like how can very talented artists, whether it's an actor or a musician or a painter, how will they Sustain, or how can the artist community sustain without the backing now of big corporations?
John Swab: I don't know that they can. If we keep going the way we're going, I don't think artists will be able to sustain. I mean, you see it in music. Uh, my wife's in a band and they're by all metrics a, uh, successful and, um, you know, up and coming band that's doing, you know, really well on paper. But it's impossible for them to even survive, [00:10:00] you know, they don't even make a blue collar wage, so, you know, they have to continue to keep touring, it's the only way they can actually stay fed and stay, like, you know, feeding the beast, um, and, and the same I see with acting is, it's, there's no middle class, and, you know, it's, it's reflecting, you know, what's going on in America right now, it's no different, so,
Marc Beckmen: So, so the, the, um, biggest performers, the biggest box office hits, the, when you talk about music, um, I wonder if this applies to the film industry too, the, the, the stream, the number of times a song is streamed. the ticket sales, the people that are really making the most money are the ones that are the, the mega mega acts, right?
Like Taylor Swift and Beyonce will all day long make money with the formula that's created vis a vis streaming services and ticket sales. But then there's a precipitous decline after you leave that elite level with regards to earning potential. Is that the same in the [00:11:00] film industry?
John Swab: yeah, I think, I think it, it's, It's certainly becoming the norm, you know, where, yeah, there are those A list actors, A list directors, and then there's kind of everybody else, and everybody else is kind of left fending for themselves and making some version of scale, which is, um, you know, not enough to, not enough to sustain on, uh, certainly as an actor, specifically, or a filmmaker for that matter, somebody directing, who gets an opportunity to maybe work or make a movie.
You know, once every one to three years. I mean, that's not sustainable for somebody like that. So
Marc Beckmen: so will we miss out on the, on discovering, like, the next De Niro, the next, Beatles? Like, is that, are we at risk now, um, to, to not be able to find that, that next uber talent?
John Swab: I think so. Yeah, I think so. Not only because of the pay discrepancy and that gap that's growing between the haves and the have nots, um, but [00:12:00] also just because of what we were talking about earlier with homogenized content. I mean, a movie like Taxi Driver, for instance, because you mentioned De Niro, like, that movie doesn't get made now.
Because, you know, uh, people are scared of, of what might be inferred by, you know, that film being made. Um, and, and, you know, I mean, that movie was risky then, and, uh, and look what it did. I mean, it birthed the careers of Scorsese, De Niro, and Jodie Foster. Um, you know, Harvey Keitel. Uh, I mean, it, it I think we're missing out because of, yeah, two things, um, the money and, and the lack of backing, um, by these companies and willing to take risk.
Hey, with the money and the kind of projects they pick, but also with just, uh, yeah, the, the inability to, to make a decent living is, is I think going to hurt people a lot.
Marc Beckmen: So, Jon, how have you been able to do it? Like, your, your, um, films attract enormous [00:13:00] talent. I mean, you have some incredibly talented actors in your films. Um, how are you able to, uh, put out. On a, on a, it seems like a regular calendar basis now, just like gorgeous works of art with incredible narratives, you know, really important storytelling too.
How have you been able to do this?
John Swab: Well, you know, my situation, you know, I'd like to think of it as, um, I'm very fortunate. you know, obviously luck's broken my way, but I also work extremely hard and, um, you know, even more so than that, like. I'm not alone, you know, I work predominantly, uh, with my producer, my producer and my partner in these movies, Jeremy Rosen, um, he's also my best friend.
so, you know, and, and then down from there, we kind of have a troop or a company of people that we, we exclusively work with. We, you know, we have an AD we always work with, we have a UPM we always work with, we [00:14:00] have, uh, department heads we always work with. So there's kind of a bit of a team aspect to what we're doing that's different than somebody else who might just be, you know, kind of a lone wolf.
Uh, and if you're a lone wolf in this business, it's, it's extremely hard to survive. Um, so, you know, My success, uh, it's not just my success. And I, I, you know, I, I sometimes as the director, when things are bad, I get blamed and, you know, I'm kind of alone on that island. And then when things are good, I'm praised and that's great.
But there's a whole, you know, first and foremost, I have a partner, uh, and all this Jeremy, who. You know, does all the things I can't do, which is a lot. Um, and we compliment each other very well. And then below us, there's a whole army of people that we've made, you know, 10 movies with some of them. Um, so.
It's very much a team aspect and I feel like since we've curated that and kind of created a culture around that, it's allowed us [00:15:00] to be successful.
Marc Beckmen: Jon, would you If you had an unlimited budget, would you keep your core team? And would you still go, um, down this, you have a certain creative signature, I think that's, that's now at this point, hallmark to you. Would you have that same type of approach to a big budget film?
John Swab: I would like to say 100 percent that I would. Um, I don't know. I think in terms of the team, yes. I think in whatever aspect I could, I would maintain that semblance of a team. I think keeping things small is very important. Um, you know, films, the way movies are made. is changing. And I think part of the problem that we were talking about earlier is that the studios and companies are slow to realize that.
and you know, I think because we You know, our budgets have grown over time and, and, you know, the scale of our projects has grown over time, but we haven't [00:16:00] really changed how we've made the movies. We still treat them as if they're small, um, and I don't mean that in terms of like, you know, these are small indies, I just mean we treat it as a mom and pop operation and we care about them each very, very much and we'd like to control as much of it as we can.
Um, and on those bigger films, you, you inject all of these people and all these resources. And you know, you lose control. Um, you lose your way and there's too many cooks in the kitchen. and you know, one of the things I'm very proud about, you know, how we do things is that it's just us in the kitchen, you know, and I know and love all of these people very much, um, and trust them.
So, you know, we've kind of been able to, to keep this, uh, this creative thread throughout all the movies that we're very proud of. And as budgets grow, I mean, the same people keep coming back. So I hope it stays that way.
Marc Beckmen: yeah, it's really interesting. I, I also, um, like the fact that you raised the issue of control, because I was wondering if you are a control freak. Um, I, I've read that you work [00:17:00] enormous hours, you put in a ton of time into all of this, and I've noticed in the credits of your film that beyond writing and directing, you're even going as far as participating in the casting process, which I thought was really interesting. Um, and the cast is always really compelling, incredibly talented people and, um, add such another layer at telling the story effectively or your stories effectively. So to what extent is it important for you to like participate even in cast selection? And how does that work, Jon? Like when, when you're participating in the guest selection, are you like calling these big, you know, high profile celebrities and explaining the storyline and, and why you want to bring them in?
Like what's under the hood there?
John Swab: so it's evolved over time, but it, but, you know, kind of how it started was, uh, you know, with the first movie, Jeremy and I did, you know, um, there were a few actors that between the two of us, we knew that would help get the movie funded. So, [00:18:00] you know, we were calling them and enlisting them in the film.
and then, you know, we would hire a local casting director and, and kind of work with them. And, and as we kind of grew and evolved, I think it was around Body Brokers where Jeremy was like, he was like, you know, fuck this, we're taking casting director credits. And it is because, you know, at that point we, we kind of, you know, between the two of us casted the whole movie.
And, uh, and yes, in that instance, I mean, Jeremy deals with the agents. I, that's, that's a world that I'm not, um, you know, that's not my world and, and he navigates it very well. I would probably get too frustrated, but, uh, but he navigates the agents and yeah, if there is a, a, you know, an actor that is a friend or, or, you know, a friend of a friend, um, yeah, I will make that personal call and pitch them directly.
And, you know, as we've gone on, what's happened is. We've seen so many actors come through an audition or we've, you know, worked with a lot of these people before that it really ends up just being, [00:19:00] aside from maybe one or two of them, a phone call. Like, hey, you know, I wrote this part, would you be interested in doing it?
Or sometimes I'll call somebody and be like, hey, I'm about to sit down and start writing the script. And I'm thinking this might be what it's going to be. Would you be okay? What do you think about this character? And they'll be like, Oh yeah, I love that idea. And so then I kind of can write with the security knowing that one of these actors is going to be in the movie.
Um, you know, we just cast, we're casting a movie now and. You know, I, I pitched one of the actors on a role, you know, maybe like a year ago and I called them the other day and I was like, Hey, I have this part. And she was like, is it the one, you know, that we talked about? I said, yeah. And she was like, I'm so excited.
So it's, it's, it's evolved and I, and Jeremy, um, does the lion's share of it for sure. Uh, he is, you know, you know, I, for lack of a better word, like the casting director of these movies and he's great at it. Um, you know, if I know them, I call them, but outside of that, he. He [00:20:00] contacts them and we have, you know, big discussions about who we want beforehand and go from there.
Marc Beckmen: So Jon, when you talk about, um, like the, the creative process and writing, once you have that relationship with a prospective actor who might be in the next film, If you feel like the initial conversation is solid and you're still going through the creative process, are you writing with that person's kind of image and voice in mind?
John Swab: yes. And, and one thing that I've, I don't know if I've always been good at it, but I've certainly gotten pretty good at it is, uh, understanding cadence and hearing cadence. And, and, you know, I can have a conversation with somebody and, and, Like, okay, this is how they say X, Y, and Z. This is, you know, I, I don't like to, especially with indie films nowadays, you don't have the money, time, or resources to spend five months with an actor developing a character.
And, you know, you know, if they're playing a hunter, they don't have the time to go assume that identity before coming to shoot. So they come, you know, with all this experience. [00:21:00] So I like to write to my actors, you know, I like to write to their strengths. And, you know, luckily With streaming and how available content is, I can catch up on an actor's work fairly quickly and understand what I see them to do well and maybe what I don't think their strengths are.
And after discussing, you know, the role with them, then I can tailor that role to them. So I do that a lot. You know, as soon as I cast somebody that I haven't worked with, I'll kind of catch up on their work, have a conversation with them, and then go back into the script and kind of tailor it to what they're doing.
I think they can serve the story best doing.
Marc Beckmen: Jon, you mentioned body brokers and, um, it's funny, like I told you, I, you know, I'm certainly a fan of your work. And one reason that I think I'm a fan is because your stories take me into, um, I feel different emotions and with Body Brokers, I, I had like the sense of anxiousness and nervousness, almost from like start to finish, like the entire way through. So I'm curious also, like during your creative [00:22:00] process, are you thinking in terms of how to impact the viewer emotionally? and then are you using the words and the actors to impact the viewer emotionally? Like how does that happen?
Is that something
that just, is that a by product or is that an intentful?
John Swab: it's, I'd say it's both, you know, I'd say in, in the earlier films of mine, it would have been a byproduct. and then as I've made more movies, I, I definitely have become more aware of how I can affect people, whether it's through sound, image, or an actor performance. Um, so, you know, but body brokers is something that, you know, is very near and dear to my heart and personal to me.
So, I think the responsibility of trying to get it right and the anxiety of that, you know, uh, you know, comes out of the screen and hopefully, you know, obviously, um, makes the viewer, you know, take it on. So,
Marc Beckmen: Yeah. Why is it so near and dear to you beyond the creative process?
John Swab: you know, the story is, is based on [00:23:00] true events, um, and the events are events that happened to me or to people I know. I did the whole rehab thing. I was a heroin addict and a crack addict for, you know, about a decade or more. And, um, that whole scam, I was caught up in it. So I, I understand it very well.
And I understand the people it's affecting, you know, very well on a personal level.
Marc Beckmen: So the scam that you're referencing, Jon, comes out of Obamacare, if I understand correctly. I learned this from your film. I never saw this, but essentially, after Obamacare, we saw, we saw a, um, increase in the amount of drug rehab facilities. Um, they grew exponentially and what they were doing, if I understand correctly, is taking advantage of different ways to be paid vis a vis insurance, including bodies in beds, dispensing, medicines, uh, analyzing urine samples, uh, length of time for the addicted individual to stay in the facility.
[00:24:00] So, um, can you talk about, can you explain what that scam is and, and what Body Brokers Uncovers, please.
John Swab: Yeah, it's, it's basically, um, insurance fraud within the, uh, substance abuse rehabilitation system. So, you know, what would happen a lot of times, but basically what started this was, yeah, Obamacare and allowing basically anybody to get, Uh, you know, go to rehab, which is on its face a good thing, but you know, as, as we Americans do, we always find a way to exploit just about anything or any rule.
And uh, what happened was, is these rehab centers, because they could charge, you know, let's say my overhead costs for you coming into detox are 2, 000 a day or 1, 500 a day. That includes. room and board, medicine, insurance, food, all that kind of stuff. what they figured out they could do is they could bill [00:25:00] your insurance company in different policies, paid different amounts.
They could bill your insurance policy 10 a day. So what that does is it creates an incentive to get anybody they can into detox and detox is just one aspect of rehab. You know, there's rehab, there's, uh, you know, Main care, then there's aftercare. But just for an example, you know, they would overcharge, overbill for anybody who came in for a bed, as they call it.
So what that did was it created a market for people to get anybody they could in these beds. And so what happened was it created this whole cottage industry of body brokering. So they would hire somebody like me to go out and find addicts or people to pose as addicts to go sit in rehab. And what, what happened is, okay, a rehab center says, hey, we'll pay you, you know, 1, 000 a head.
I'm like, okay. So I go out and I find [00:26:00] somebody and how do I incentivize them? I say, Hey, I'll pay you, you know, a hundred bucks a day or whatever it was, you know, the math, my math's wrong. It's been a while since I made that movie, but basically, you know, there were guys out there making hundreds of thousands of dollars a month off brokering these people.
And, and, you know, it led to a lot of people. Uh, getting further strung out, getting further away from getting help and, you know, a lot of over deaths, overdoses and deaths. so, you know, it's, it's a problem and it's still happening. So
Marc Beckmen: So it created a sort of vicious cycle then where the, um, the facility wasn't really helping a majority of the individuals that, um, were there. And in fact, the people that were there weren't maybe even there for treatment. They were there to get money so that they could end up back on the streets back to pay for drugs.
Is that, do I understand
that correctly?
John Swab: that's, exactly right. Basically what happened was, is, you know, and I know people that run treatment centers, um, and, and are good people and, uh, I know people that run good ones and bad ones and, [00:27:00] you know, it, it created a system where the incentive wasn't to get people better, but It was to keep them coming back.
Um, so there's this revolving door where, you know, I'd be in rehab and there were people in there with me that had been to 10 rehabs in one year. And the average stay in a rehab is 30 days. So, I mean, do the math, you know, they'd spend two months out with the money they made getting high on the street, staying in a flop house that's run by one of the body brokers.
And then when they'd run out of money, they'd go back into rehab and make, you know, make their money, get high while they're in rehab, and then go back out. So it creates this vicious cycle, um, where the incentive is not to help people, it's just to profit off of them, you know. So,
Marc Beckmen: did you actually work as a body broker?
John Swab: yeah, I mean, you personally
Marc Beckmen: did?
John Swab: Yeah, it's not, what I did wasn't as sexy as what's in the movie. I wasn't, uh, and I didn't get to that position. Um, you know, what would happen, I was more on the low end, you know, in the kind of [00:28:00] more pathetic version of it, where I was a junkie, and they would say to me, you know, I had a buddy who ran a treatment center, he'd say, hey, every person you send me, I'll give you 1500 bucks.
and so, you know, as I ran into people, it was always like, You know, something I pitched to them and I'd send people there. At one time I was in a rehab center in Florida. And my buddy called me and he said, Hey, anybody you can bring me, I'll give you 3000 bucks. So I went to the cafeteria that day or the lunchroom and I was like, you know, like a salesman.
I was like, who wants to go to California? Fuck Florida. Let's get out of here. And I ended up gathering about six guys and we all got on a plane together and flew to California together and went to rehab. And, uh, You know, I got paid for them being out there and
Marc Beckmen: Almost 20, 000, huh? That's
John Swab: almost 20, 000. So, but that was the extent of my body brokering and I, and I've been sober almost 10 years now.
and you know, I'm not, I'm not proud of what I did, but I mean, you know, That's like, what's an addict [00:29:00] gonna do? If you give them an opportunity to make money, I mean, and something as easy as that, I mean, it's a no brainer. So,
Marc Beckmen: So, Jon, have any politicians, um, caught on to what's happening in the system and tried to change, uh, the law at all or, or, you know, modify it so that this vicious cycle comes to an end and people can actually be helped?
John Swab: yeah, I, yeah, I, I don't know too, you know, too specifically how things have been changed. Um, or if I did, I've forgotten. Um, and, uh, but I know that in Florida, things have changed. Basically, this all kind of started in Florida. And as things started getting cracked down in Florida, the people in Florida that were doing it moved to California.
uh because they you can look at the you know the state law it's a state by state law and they can figure out how to exploit each state's law and so they move there they kind of they they really went fucking crazy in california and then a little after we made the movie there started to be some some major crackdowns and people went to jail some people that um [00:30:00] i knew and uh and helped me with the film in terms of giving me information they The houses were raided by the FBI and they were taken to prison and so it cracked down there and from what I've heard it's now moved to Arizona and then to Indian reservations and Indian clinics now.
So, yeah, it just, you know, finds the weakest, uh, weakest place it can and continues to spread. So.
Marc Beckmen: So, Jon, so like your personal experiences really impact your creative process and you know, if you didn't have the unfortunate experience of being an addict, you might not have been able to create bodybrokers. I know you're very passionate right now. about, um, the, the, uh, fentanyl situation that is, um, you know, running, I think, rampant throughout our country right now.
I, I pulled some CDC statistics because you hear all over the news people rambling different numbers, and I figured If we look at the CDC, maybe it's fine, [00:31:00] and I was kind of shocked at what I found. I found that, as it relates to drug overdoses, there have been, uh, more than 100, 000 deaths from fentanyl, drug overdoses from fentanyl, in the United States in 2022 and in 2023.
So it doesn't look like that number is, is going. Uh, backwards, frankly, but then I also saw that in 2023, there was an increase in overdoses relating to cocaine by 5%, which seems like a pretty serious number. And then, uh, same with meth, uh, but up by 2%. So it seems to me like the, um, issue of drug use and over at the street level, drug use and overdoses are, um, just like really, really at a. Can I, is it fair to say even like at an all time high here in America?
John Swab: Definitely. And I've spent a lot of time with, uh, with paramedics and law enforcement and, and the people that are on the front lines of all this. And they'll tell you the same thing that it's a fucking, you know, it's a war [00:32:00] and people, and we're losing, you know, uh, we're losing every day. And, uh, you know, when I was younger or in my, uh, my teens and I was doing heroin, getting high that like, you know, doing pills and heroin and stuff like that.
Even then an overdose was pretty rare. I mean, I remember when it would happen. I remember the first like five or six people I knew that overdosed and it was, it was a real tragedy. It was really like, wow, I can't believe that happened. And most of the time that it happened, it was because people were mixing chemicals.
It's not because they were just doing one thing. It was, oh, they mixed Xanax and, and opiate. Um, nowadays what's happening is You know, fentanyl is in everything. I mean, you can't even trust prescription pills anymore. They're, they're all fake. I mean, that blows my mind. And, and, and what you said about, you know, overdoses being up in cocaine and in meth.
Meth, meth's extremely hard to overdose on. I've tried. You, you kind of can't. I mean, I mean, I've done so much meth that like, I was like, this is [00:33:00] certainly going to kill me. And it didn't. So, and, and so my point is, is that everything is being laced with fentanyl now. And you know, when I did this most recent movie, King Ivory, Um, you know, I talk to people that work in the cartels and that, and that press these pills and that, you know, are really involved in, in bringing fentanyl into this country.
And I'm like, what is the fuck? And what are you guys doing? What is, why are you putting it in everything? Why aren't you keeping it in one thing? Because when, you know, traditionally with heroin, it's branded, it's a thing. It's like our crew or our gang has this kind of dope. And, and it becomes like a brand on the street, like Nike.
It's like, well, I trust them. Their stuff's good. But now it's just watered down and everything. And you know, their reasoning is because they want to expose everybody to it, to know how good it is. So, you know, when you're a kid and you're smoking weed and you smoke it and you're like, I've never felt this good in my [00:34:00] life, You know, you've just tried fentanyl.
Congratulations. You're 13 years old. You know what I mean? Um, you would have never tried this ever, you know, on your own free will and volition. So, uh, it's, it's super sinister, man. And it's dark and, um, it's not looking good, you
Marc Beckmen: Where is it coming
from, Jon? Like when you talk about, um, you spoke with the cartel, like what cartel, like, what does that mean? Like, I don't, I wouldn't know personally, like how to find the cartel and have that kind of a conversation. Like, where is the drug coming from? Is it actually coming from China, um, as we're seeing in the news and
John Swab: Yeah, it's, it's, it's all coming. I mean, it's, it's, you know, I, I've spoken to the cartel, the DEA, um, and, and some Navy SEAL, you know, people that, that know a lot more than I do. And, uh, and, and legislators as well. And every one of them has told me, yeah, it's coming from China, uh, China or like, or India. Um, but predominantly the labs in China are the, the ones [00:35:00] that make it and, and ship it over here.
And yeah, it shipped from China down to Ecuador, usually, and then, or, you know, somewhere off the coast of Mexico and then smuggled right up through Texas or Arizona or, you know, California. So,
Marc Beckmen: when you talk about just going back to that cartel comment, because it's, you know, very interesting. So who, like, how do you get to the cartel? Who was the cartel? Like a Mexican cartel? Is that
John Swab: like, yeah, so there's, what's happened now, and it's, it's interesting to me, but, um, you know, traditionally in, in the Mexican cartel structure, there's, you know, You know, been about three or four major cartels, um, and two being the biggest, Sinaloa and Jalisco Next Generation Cartel, and they control, I mean, probably about 70 percent of, of Mexico, and nearly all of the cocaine and, and heroin and, and marijuana that comes from there.
is controlled by those two gangs. [00:36:00] Um, but what's happened since Fentanyl is it's totally decentralized, centralized the cartel structure. So there's all, because anybody can get their hands on it. It's not like you have to have a field to grow it. If you can, if you have a connection who gets it off the dock or off the boat or from China or whatever, you can get your hands on it and you can press these pills and now you're in the Fentanyl game.
Um, so it's created all of these, it's fractured the classic cartel structure, and now there's all of these independent gangs. And that's why you're seeing so much violence in America right now is because, you know, even 10 years ago, you know, it was MS 13, it was Sinaloa, and there was a few other gangs on the streets in America, and they pretty much controlled every major city.
Now, you have all of these rival smaller gangs coming in and disrupting the classic structure and it's creating all this violence. Um, you know, so to go back to your question, you know, how do I get in touch with somebody like that? Well, you know, [00:37:00] like I said, I was a, you know, a dope fiend for a while, um, and I got to know people.
Being a dope fiend, I still have friends that are active and, you know, I spend time with them. I'm, you know, they're people I love and care deeply about and I'm hope, I'm hopeful that one day, you know, my success in sobriety and in life will rub off on them and they'll, you know, be serious about getting help.
But I can't forget about those people. I mean, you know, I'm, I'm one bad decision away from being one of them. So I hang out with them. I talk to them. They introduce me to, you know, the person who's their dealer. I get that guy's trust. And then you go up from there. And, um, you know, where I'm from in Oklahoma, you know, I 35 comes straight from Mexico, right up into Oklahoma.
And then from there, it splinters out all over the country. So virtually, All of the, all of the fentanyl and cocaine that comes in through the Southern border, you know, and it ends up on the East coast comes through Oklahoma. So there's a [00:38:00] pretty big presence there. And, uh, I got to spend some time with some people that were pretty heavily involved and.
You know, they were, uh, willing to talk to me and, and tell me what they knew and what they thought and why
Marc Beckmen: you met with, you met
with them in Oklahoma?
John Swab: Yeah. Yeah. Oklahoma. do you meet? Like you go
Marc Beckmen: to like the diner? Like where do you go? Like you go to have like a,
like you're going to get
a coffee together? Like it's such a weird,
John Swab: it is a weird thing. I mean, it's, uh, so it started like this and this is, you know, the movie I made, I'm super proud of. And, um, And really, really dives into all this.
Um, it's called King Ivory. It'll be out hopefully in the fall, but, but I started with the driver. So I kind of worked my way up. So I, I started with the addict, um, that I knew. Um, and then from there, there's what's called drivers and delivery guys. And most of these people speak very little English and most of them are very young.
Most of them are anywhere from 16 to 25 years old. And. They look like, [00:39:00] you know, somebody who works at Starbucks, you know, they're just an innocent looking kid. Um, and most, mostly boys. Um, and so I got the trust of that kid and, you know, I drove around with him and did some runs with him where he would, you know, distribute bags to these different people.
And he sits in his car all day. He's not allowed to leave it until he's told he's allowed to leave it, use the restroom. He drives around, um, gets a ping on his phone. It says, go here. He drives there. He sits, he waits. Somebody gets in the back, he hands him the bag and then drives on and keeps doing it. I did that with him for three or four days.
Finally got him to let me to meet the person who handles the phone and does the switchboarding. And, uh, then I went to a house to meet them. And, you know, it was a house, you know, in a Not a great neighborhood and there was very little furniture. It was just cots on the bed and, you know, some, uh, tortillas and, you know, ground beef in the fucking [00:40:00] fridge and just people sleeping on cots.
It's human trafficking, man. And, uh, that woman talked to me. And then from there I worked up to. You know, what I would say, you know, in a, in a normal business would be like the regional manager, you know, like the guy who runs the state
and, you know, that was kind of where it all stopped for me with him, which I was fine to stop right there.
And, and, and, uh, yeah, I, him, I met in a house as well. So, you know.
Marc Beckmen: it's incredible. There's like a proper org chart, like there's a real functioning infrastructure for the cartel.
John Swab: 100 percent 100 percent and and since then I've gone down to Columbia and you know I met with some people down there kind of further like researching this story you know after the movie I just was like I need to know more because maybe there's another film here and they they're fortune 500 companies man I mean they're run just like Any major corporation and, uh, you know, except they'll kill you if, you know, um, and that's probably why they're more [00:41:00] successful than major companies is because they're able to do that.
But,
Marc Beckmen: Jon, do you have that fear? Like when you go into these homes, are you thinking like in the back of your mind, in the front, you're saying, I want to get the story. I want to create this film. It's important to me. I want to also impact perhaps culture and the use of fentanyl. But on the back of your mind, are you like fearing that you might be killed?
John Swab: I don't know if I, if I'm, if that's like a thought that I really have just because, I mean, I, I used to have it on the street a little bit when I was using, and I think. The thing about those kind of people is, is they can smell it. I mean, they're, they are apex predators, you know, the good ones, the successful ones are apex predators, and they can smell you, they can smell fear, they can smell, are you for real?
Are you here to exploit me? Are you a threat? And, you know, if you know, I'm not an undercover cop, I'm not somebody doing, you know, I'm not coming in with an agenda other than just, just to understand, like, I just want to know, like, [00:42:00] what's going on? Who are you? Like, who are you and why are you? You know, that's like really what I'm coming with is like, I don't care.
You know, I, I don't think what they're doing is good. I don't. I don't believe that fentanyl is, is, you know, a benefit to this, to anything. I have to try and understand why they are doing what they're doing. And once you get to know these people and you see where they've come from. You kind of get, you understand.
It's like, okay, I get it, man. I get it. I can't say that I would not do the exact same thing you're doing right now. And if I was lucky, end up where you are, because most people end up dead or, you know, working for, in a factory down there or mountain or, you know, I don't know, starving to death. I don't know.
I mean, it's a lot of these people come from the darkest places that you can think of, you know, so, uh, I'm scared, I guess, I'm scared when I leave. When I leave and know what I know, that's when like the fear sets in. But [00:43:00] going in, it's, it's, it's thrilling and uh, I'm just searching for the truth, man. So, I don't know.
I'm not really fearing for my life.
Marc Beckmen: So, when you talk about like why these people do it, um, it seems, it sounds like the Mexican cartels are organized as a distribution chain and it's transactional in nature. They want to make money, period. But what about, is the same for China? Like, is it just about money when you talk about fentanyl coming from China?
In your opinion, is that what the intent is
John Swab: I don't know. I have no idea. You know, um, I've never been to China. I've never spoken to a, uh, to anybody from that side of it. Uh, you know, I have spoken to people that have, you know, um, government officials and, and. People that work within our government, um, that are, that are combating this, and they seem to think there's something sinister about it all.
And, and, you know, [00:44:00] that maybe there's some kind of agenda to why it's all ending up here and killing our military age men. Um, I have not spoken to anybody on that side, so I don't, really don't have a formed, like, a formed opinion about it. Um, but, you know, it, it is. It's all coming from there.
Marc Beckmen: from China?
John Swab: yeah, yeah,
Marc Beckmen: You know for sure.
John Swab: yeah.
So,
Marc Beckmen: So then when you talk about the United States government, do you feel like they're doing enough to stop
fentanyl?
John Swab: no, not at all. I mean, you know, the same SEALs that I talked to about this stuff, you know, in that same conversation, uh, one of them said, you know, he was like, I was one of the first people over in Afghanistan. And he's like, do you know what the first thing we did was? And I said, what? And he goes, secure the poppy fields.
And I was like, oh, that's super interesting. He was, [00:45:00] yeah, you know, because I think upwards of 90 percent of, of, uh, of poppy fields are, and maybe it's more than that, um, are in Afghanistan.
Marc Beckmen: remember, I remember seeing
the images,
but why
did the United States government have to secure the poppy fields first?
John Swab: it's a lot of money. It's a lot of money. And, you know, uh, you know, I'm sure there's some diplomatic reason, but, you know, if you actually trace it back, and this is research I've done on my own, um, you know, when that happens, it's Not long afterwards, you know, the whole Purdue and, uh, you know, Oxycontin boom really takes place.
It's, it's, it's about four or five years later, um, after Purdue. After all that, so I don't know that they're linked, but uh, but you know, it's, it's definitely curious that it's, it's just, you know, I, even with what's going on at [00:46:00] the border, I mean, I, I don't, I don't have any answer for all that. I don't, I don't know enough to, to have a really informed opinion.
I, I see what I see on the news, but I don't know what's true. Um, I've spoken to these cartel people that a lot of them came across the border. A lot of them bring people across the border. Um, I understand why people would want to come here. I also understand that, you know, there are people bringing drugs across the border every day.
So, you know, one, one statistic that was really, really telling to me, um, and, and it's in the film, um, but, you know, the DEA agent one day, I went on a raid with them and, uh, you know, we, we hit, hit these three houses in the morning and You know, they found quite a bit of fentanyl and, uh, we're driving home and, uh, it was, it was like five 30 in the morning.
Cause when we met at three and they kicked these doors around four and then we're driving home at [00:47:00] five 30 and he's like, it's silent. In the car and, um, he's like, you know, you know what happened during COVID, right? And I was like, what? And he was like, well, before COVID, an ounce of dope was, I forget the exact number, but he said, you know, an ounce of dope was 3, 000.
And I was like, okay, that's before COVID. He said, do you know how much it cost during COVID? And I said, what? And he said, 27, 000. And I was like, okay, I get it. He was like, you close the fucking border, you basically end the war on drugs. That's just what happens. It's all coming from there. So if you can stop it, then, you know, there it is.
So, You know, I know it's not that simple of a solution because there's so many other things at play. But, you know, the money, if you like pay attention to money in the market, like it'll tell you the truth, you [00:48:00] know? And so if when we closed the border during COVID, you know, it jumped nearly 25, 000. I don't know what percent that is.
Then that tells you something, you know, that there is a way to definitely curb it. So yeah.
Marc Beckmen: beyond, um, the entertainment value of King Ivory, is there something deeper at play here for you? Are you trying to impact society somehow?
John Swab: I think that would be, you know, it's certainly not something I'm, I'm, uh, you know, in my office or at my desk saying, well, this is going to change this and that. Like, I don't, I don't really think like that. I'm not, I don't think that much of myself, you know, but what I would hope and what my only goal for the movie was, I want to tell this story and I want to judge nobody.
I just want to show the audience. Every piece of this movie, it's a tapestry. It's, you know, it's each facet of it, the people that are affected and the people that, you [00:49:00] know, that are bringing it in, um, the cops that are chasing it. It's, it's every facet of life that's being touched by this, by this, by this drug.
And I tried my best and I know my actors didn't, nobody judged anybody in the movie. We just wanted to be honest about it. So hopefully when people watch it, you know, it, It kind of takes the, you know, what's happened now is it's been politicized. And so it's this thing, you know, that, that we can't even have a conversation about because somebody gets upset.
Um, you know, much like a lot of our political issues right now. I just hope, you know, for the people that do see the movie afterwards, when they get to the parking lot, when they get to their car, when they're, you know, having coffee afterwards with their friends, they can say, okay, So what do you think?
Like, what, what is there, like, what really can be done? Like, how can this be changed? Um, and that's my goal, is that, you know, it kind of disarms people and [00:50:00] allows them to have a conversation.
Marc Beckmen: Yeah, I think that's interesting. I mean, to your point, like, it seems fentanyl just crosses all, you know, all boundaries, race, religion, age, gender. I know, you know, one of my favorite actors, who I imagine is, was a friend of yours, an actor, Michael Kay, who was in Body Brokers, he passed away of fentanyl. I think maybe it was during COVID and I shared with you on a very personal level, my cousin's 18 year old son also died from um, fentanyl, from a fentanyl overdose and I, I, I, I, DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY, IT'S SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAS BECOME POLITICIZED WHEN IT'S CROSSING IT HAS NO BOUNDARIES IT'S CROSSING AGE, RELIGION, RACE, GENDER, AND EVERYTHING. WHY CAN'T OUR GOVERNMENT COME TOGETHER TO SEE THAT THIS IS CAUSING A SYSTEM THAT. a terrible imprint on our country, on our nation, and uh, perhaps it's time to, to do something [00:51:00] about it. I mean, to your point, if they're crushing pills and putting it on everything, including, you know, something as basic as marijuana, or you had mentioned, which I'm Kind of freaking out now.
Prescription, um, medicine as well. Um, if that's the case, then shouldn't we, isn't that like a great place for the government to step in and protect our liberty, to protect our, um, you know, our, our, uh, freedom without, um, you know, politics at play?
John Swab: Yeah, I mean, you would think so. You would think that it's enough. Uh, you know, but I, like, we kind of talked about earlier. Everybody's afraid to piss, you know, their base off, you know, or their customers off, or whoever it is, they're afraid to, uh, to, you know, enrage the Twitter mob, um, so, you know, whatever drastic measure would have to be taken, um, as simple as it sounds, like, You know, stricter on the border [00:52:00] or, or I don't, you know, I don't even know what the alternative would be besides that.
Uh, there are so many other political implications, um, and implications that affect, you know, everyday people to consider that, um, that I, I don't think it's as easy as As it sounds, um, I think it's super complex and, but it should be, I mean, it, like there's wars going on right now, um, that, you know, are overseas and, uh, and.
You know, in my mind, to me, this is one that's happening right here all across the country, and I don't understand why it's not treated the same. You know what I mean? I mean, there's billions of dollars being allocated for, for these other wars, and, and I, I'm not even saying that's a good or a bad thing.
I'm just saying it's happening, so I don't understand why, uh, you know, the same isn't happening for Americans and the people here that are being, you know, Killed off by this thing. So,
Marc Beckmen: Jon, I mean, [00:53:00] you, you mentioned a few times during our conversation, you're very open with your struggles with, with drugs. Um, it's, it's sounds scary to be honest with you. Like, what did you see firsthand during that time period? As far as like people dying, friends dying, how many, um, overdoses do you think you saw firsthand?
Um, or, or that you were people that you were connected to? Um, like how, how big of an issue is it?
John Swab: um, well, I, I remember the first time I did fentanyl, uh, it was in 2015. It was about, I think it was about six or seven months before I got sober this last time and have stayed stopped until now. Um, and it was relatively new. It was kind of like fucking Bigfoot, you know, out there on the street. It was like this new thing.
That's like more powerful than anything. And, uh, uh, And where I was at the time, you know, the joke was is that, uh, Dope Fiends watched the news, the five o'clock news, because when you'd watch the news, it would say, [00:54:00] you know, so, you know, in Neptune Township, you know, eight people overdosed yesterday. Uh, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
So what we would do as junkies is we'd all go to fucking Neptune Township and look for the dope bags that killed these people because they're obviously strong and they're obviously good. And so I remember doing that and we got these bags and the guy I was with, he got to his before I did and he died.
He, you know, he did him and died and you know, it was awful and it was. And you know, as a sick junkie, it didn't make me not do mine. It just made me do half of mine, you know, half of what I would normally do. And you know, it was as strong and as, uh, powerful as, as anything I'd ever done. And, um, you know, but that was the first fentanyl overdose I'd seen.
I'd seen heroin overdoses before that. And, and I saw a couple more fentanyl after. And, you know, in getting sober, you know, and doing the 12 step [00:55:00] thing that I do, you meet a lot of people that come in and they try it one more time and don't come back, you know, so it's hard to put a number on how many people have been lost to it, but it's It's every day.
And, uh, and you know, when I hear stories about, about you and the people you've lost, I mean, you can't not meet somebody or talk to somebody about it who hasn't been affected, you know, uh, it's, it's touching everybody. And that's, that's what's so scary is it used to be just heroin addicts died. Just, the only overdoses that happened were heroin.
When I was a kid, it was like, you can do anything. Just don't do that because you'll overdose. And now it's like, you can't do anything because, you know, I hear about kids, that you know literally smoke a blunt or a joint or whatever and they're fucking 12 or 13 years old and one of them dies you know and it's uh nobody's safe and that's that's that's scary
Marc Beckmen: It's an, it's an incredible life experience that you've had, um, to be honest [00:56:00] with you, like struggling with drugs and then, you know, shooting into the world of filmmaking and all. What, like, if you're going to say that you were in a chapter of your own life right now, like, where are you in your own life, Jon?
John Swab: i don't know i i'd say like uh my dad calls that you know That, that period of my life, the, uh, the R& D period, you know, all the research and development, uh, and, and, uh, yeah, and so like when we'll be in conversation and I'll say, oh, you remember that? He's like, oh, that was during, you know, research and development.
I'm like, yeah, that's right. So, uh, I say that because, you know, when I'd say now, um, I, I feel like I'm finally coming out of all that, um, and in a place where I can really reflect on it and be thoughtful about it, you know, um, you know, I've been sober a long time, but, I feel like when you get sober, you kind of are in a dead sprint away from [00:57:00] whatever you, you know, you just came from, and, I guess not, not too long ago, I stopped running and I'm able to like, look back and see how far I've come and, you know, be proud, but also be aware of, of what that was and respect it and, you know, appreciate it.
and not judge myself or anybody else and try and use it to, you know, you know, creatively to work through whatever it was and also hopefully help people that are, you know, further behind in the race than I am. So
Marc Beckmen: Does, does the filmmaking give you more excitement than anything else you've felt in your life, including the drug use?
John Swab: yeah, um, I would say so. I mean, the thing that's so cool about filmmaking is that there's no I, you know, like, I mean, sure, like I write a script, but it's just words on paper. Until it's casted and we're making [00:58:00] it and, you know, the costumers, they're dressing them. It's such a team sport and it's kind of like building a small town.
And, you know, the thing that's cool about, you know, small towns Is that there's peace, you know, most of the time, everybody's got a job. Everybody's got a purpose and everybody is working towards a common goal. Um, so, you know, where there is this exhilaration in terms of like, Ooh, making the movie, casting the movie, funding the movie, finding the location, shooting the movie, you know, making your days, doing all that kind of stuff.
Like that's. That's cool. And a lot of that mirrors, you know, um, you know, using drugs in a way because you're, you're constantly have this rush and this high, but the real fulfillment I get from, from filmmaking is the community of it and the, you know, the partnership and friendship I get from it. And, you know, like my, my, my Jeremy and I, we, we started out as, as, uh, you know, making our first movie together [00:59:00] and we didn't know each other for shit.
And, uh, you know, we fought as hard as we could to get it made. Um, and we made it, we became friends for that, from that, and then since then we've made I think eight or nine movies and a lot of battles, a lot of battles we fought together, and you know, um, we traveled all over the world together, and you know, it's, it's, you know, it's uh, it's amazing to have that kind of partnership and friendship in something like this, because it is so hard, it's, it's extremely hard, you've got to be, especially nowadays with COVID.
With how the movie industry is going you've got to be a fucking idiot to get into film You know, I people ask me all the time. They're like you know, kids or, or, you know, people that are further behind than I am. And they're like, Hey, so do you have any advice for somebody who's trying to get into the film business or wants to do what you're doing?
And I'm like, well, you better have no other options. Because if you do, you're going to do them, you know, if I [01:00:00] had, you know, somebody that, you know, family business or whatever, something I could have fallen back on, I would have fallen back on it.
Marc Beckmen: And I think,
Jon, it's probably going to become even more of a struggle. Filmmaking, the film business, will become even more of a struggle with the advent of artificial intelligence, with the idea of digital twins. Um, you know, you mentioned earlier, The concept of reboots. I think I read somewhere that last year or the year before, 80 percent of the top films in America were reboots. And if that's the case, it would be easy for these big studios that are well financed to integrate. digital doubles of high profile celebrities, actors, et cetera, into the films without the actors even getting off their couch. And I think we're going to see a lot of that. So it's going to create, I think, even more walls for those, um, you know, young dreamers that want to break into the industry.
John Swab: yeah, I mean, you know, it's, for me, I mean, when [01:01:00] I first heard about the potentials for AI and it kind of, you know, uh, at least for me and, and the people I know, it, it kind of was shot out of a cannon last year, you know, around this time. Um, With the strikes, like that's when everybody in the film industry really became aware of it.
And, and I guess the, the so called threat of it. Um, and, you know, so when left to my own devices, I think about the worst outcomes. I think about, you know, Oh, I'm just going to be, you know, stuck at my house, receiving a check from the government and, you know, staring at this bad content from Netflix, you know, every day or whatever, you know, computer generated content is just going to be, that's what's just, that's it.
That's all
Marc Beckmen: Yeah, we're there.
John Swab: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So,
Marc Beckmen: We're there! I mean, like, today, like, that dreamer
could create characters, could create a script, could create music, could create video content. I mean, we are there. It's, it's barreling right at us,
John Swab: yeah, it's, it's interesting. And, and I've tried to familiarize myself with the technology a little bit just to [01:02:00] understand it, because once you understand something, you can either fear, fear less, or just understand the fear. Uh, you know, and, um, I think I'd be foolish to, I have to remind myself, like, I'm not gonna future trip about what could happen.
Um, you know, it's, it's not helpful to me. But I definitely do agree with you that It is going to be, um, tough for somebody at least that came in with a skill set like I had to get into the film industry. Somebody who is good with AI and understands how to use it to their, to their benefit. Um, it might be easier, you know, um.
I am a fan of Netflix. I think they make, you know, uh, I think it's amazing the business they've built and, uh, I'm hopeful that they start making better movies and then they've, you know, they've pledged to do so. Um, but I'm, I'm a fan. I, I have a subscription. Um, but Ted Sarando said something the other day in an interview that I thought was interesting.
He was like, I don't think AI can [01:03:00] write a better script than, than humans. I don't think it's going to re, I don't think it's going to replace filmmakers. Um, but it might replace filmmakers that don't, like, the only person who might replace a filmmaker is a filmmaker who understands how to use AI better than you.
And uh, and I thought that was interesting because, you know, it could just be another tool. Um, you know, we shoot on volume stages and, and LED walls and all these things that you couldn't do 10 years ago and it saves you a ton of time and money. Um, and it's a tool. Um, I think the capabilities of AR are much, much greater.
but you know, I don't know what, what's going to become of the film industry and how AI is going to affect it, but, uh, you know, uh, progress is inevitable. So to try and get in its way, it's just a fucking fool's errand. So I'm trying to understand it and, you know, move with the flow. So,
Marc Beckmen: Yeah, I think that, um, creators that want to use artificial intelligence certainly can leverage it for the impact [01:04:00] as a tool, but it is going to be devoid of the emotional connection that the creator has with whatever it is that's inspiring her or him. So like in, in the instance of King Ivory. You know, but for your personal experiences, um, you wouldn't be able to create what I expect to be an incredible film.
I can't wait to see it. But, um, you know, that emotional connection between you as the creator, the story, and then connecting over to the person that's viewing the film. AI couldn't do that. It couldn't, it couldn't strike that, that, um, it couldn't light that emotional fire. Uh, so it's impressive what AI could do now, whether it's songwriting or poetry or beautiful visuals, but it's devoid of that human connection to the inspiration.
John Swab: yeah, I agree. And I think that's, I think that, you know, a by product of that. Is what's going to be super interesting to see how it all shakes out is, I have no doubt in my mind that, you know, [01:05:00] in, I don't know how long, but at some point, shows, you know, those network shows, those serialized, uh, CSIs and, and Bluebloods and those kind of, you know, law and orders, like those kind of things will probably, I don't know what, to what extent, but I bet they'll be utilizing AI to come up with the storylines and if they're not already.
Um, and actually writing all the, like the whole script because it's pretty formulaic and you know, it's not really something that makes its money or attracts its audience on what you're talking about, like emotion and, and, and basically a fingerprint of a human being. Um, so I think an interesting byproduct. that could shake out from all this is that things that are truly original or truly personal or feel distinctly human are going to become that much more valuable and it's going to be the only kind of filmmakers and storytellers that survive and that come out of this and thrive are going to be people that that put that personal touch onto something [01:06:00] um and you know that's That's what I hope, at least, uh, because the alternative is pretty bleak, so.
Marc Beckmen: I agree. So Jon, you've given me a tremendous amount of your time today. Each guest, um, at the end of our show, um, uses the title Some Future Day. Um, to, I start the sentence with some future day and then our guest finishes the sentence. Are you game?
John Swab: Yeah, yeah, I'll try. I'm, uh, probably won't be good at it, but yeah.
Marc Beckmen: All right. So, in some future day, superior creators will,
John Swab: Thrive.
Marc Beckmen: beautiful. One word, simple. I'm not surprised coming from you. You just nail it eloquently, succinct. I love it, Jon. Thank you so much. Um, I really
appreciate it.
It's been great getting to know you today.
John Swab: Thank you, Mark. You as well, man. [01:07:00] [01:08:00]