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“It’s like vacuuming a room without plugging in the vacuum. You’re just going through the motions, but there’s nothing turned on.” - Colleen O’Neill
“They’re looking for a limit. It’s kind of the child’s job to see where are the limits.” - Colleen O’Neill
“Decide in advance what you’re asking for and why. Just so you know that you’re coming from a fair place.” - Colleen O’Neill
Raising Men is a podcast about parenting, masculinity, and the lifelong journey of raising sons—and ourselves—to be men of courage, character, and purpose. Hosted by Shaun Dawson, each episode features real conversations with parents, leaders, and thinkers redefining what it means to raising men in today’s world.
wait a minute so
you're saying that
there are some kids who are really good at pressing
buttons could I have gotten one of those kids who's not
I I
I there
mine are amazing I
I
I didn't even realize that that was one of the options
when I filled out the form
parenting doesn't come with a handbook
I mean there's such a variety
welcome back to raising men
today on the Raising Men podcast
we're joined by Colleen oh
Neil Colleen is a board certified pediatric
occupational therapist who spent more than a decade
working with kids and families in New York City
and most of them were boys
she's the author of My Feelings Workbook
a self regulation workbook for children
and the new parent guide
how to lovingly set a firm boundary
her work is built on one simple idea
regulate yourself first
then support your child from that place
Colleen welcome to raising men
and thank you so much for joining me today
yeah thanks for having me
I'm really excited for this conversation
well I
so let's get started talking about um
that second thing how to lovingly set a firm boundary
I I think that one of the
the patterns that's happened in my life
uh with respect to kids is I won't set the boundaries
and then I'll get irritated
that they're being violated
and so then I get mad
and then I overcorrect by being extreme
or being angry about setting the boundaries
and it
and it dovetails into the self regulation thing too
right I
I mean I've talked a lot of times on the show about how
nobody has ever been able to press my buttons um
like my kids and so
I don't know let's uh
let's start with that
yeah definitely
and I love the
the boundary conversation because it's complicated
and there are kind of two different
and to the spectrum
there's the really harsh way that boundaries are set
and sometimes when you know
when I was a child
that's what I experienced and a lot of adults
that's what we experience
so then we yeah
sometimes go to the opposite end
where we're a little bit passive
and then we get so mad
because that's not really regulating either
see I titled my book
how to lovingly set a Firm Boundary
because there is a middle ground
but it's complicated and if you're
interacting with children on a regular basis
it's not easy and exactly like you said
I talk about this often there's some kids that are just
really good at pressing buttons
it's like they almost look for it and then they find it
and then they just press on it incessantly
and it is really can be challenging too on
in the adult perspective regulating
so that's why I do so much
talking about that
these days'cause I feel like it's so important
wait a minute wait a minute
so you're saying that
there are some kids who are really good at pressing
buttons could I have gotten one of those kids who's not
I I
there mine are amazing
I
I didn't even realize that that was one of the options
when I filled out the form
parenting doesn't come with a handbook
I mean there's such a variety
and it's so interesting that
I think people have expectations
you know when there's a kid
but then they they come wired very individually
think they're really just
there's such a variety with people
and children are not accepted from that
yeah yeah
and you know I
the sense about that I get about your approach
is that it starts with the adult
not the child which I
I mean I
I can I feel that because that is
that is such a departure from
at least my own personal reflex
you know I see my boy kind of acting out
or doing something I don't want to have happen
and my very first thought is
how do I correct that behavior in him
and it's it's all external
it's all about him it's all but
and I'm not necessarily asking the question of how
how am I responding to it
and how am I making sure that I'm
coming from a place that is productive
and I I
mean it's also very difficult to stay regulated
so sometimes and so just walk me through the what is
what is the first 10 seconds or
or or something that you go through as a parent in
in dealing with kind of a
a challenging situation
how do you keep yourself regulated
or restore regulation or how do you what
what kind of triggers do you set up
and how do you do that
yeah
and that's why I wanted to really go into this topic
with my work
in the way that I have all of my experiences
the child therapist
so kid comes to me and the focus is on the child
and then as I was doing that work earlier in my career
I started learning kind of what I needed to feel okay
for almost more of a personal preference
and what was so interesting is
I was seeing the influence it would have with
I worked with a ton of boys
you know after school in really busy environments
and there was a first you know
you wanna control them so you feel OK
you want you know especially we can chat
you know we are talking about boys
but you know they tend they can be not all of them
but they can be active
and then you get worried about safety
or you get worried about something
and then we kind of focus on their behavior
and it's like
when this child does something I'm gonna feel OK
and that's
I think a lot of us go that way and that's what I did
but it's
I found it a lot better
when I Learned how to take care of myself
and then I could show up in those situations
and really help the child
and that's what I do now with the parents and adults
because you know
child you know having a child is very complex
and I feel like
when we wanna talk about this piece of regulation
it's very new and when we were younger
it's not like
there was a focus on adults regulating themselves
so we're kind of the adults now
who are having those conversations and doing this work
and it's hard because there's momentum
and you have these really stressful experiences
particularly
they manifest the biggest in the home environment
when there are challenges
regulation and that really close dynamic
so yeah it's really hard
and that's why I've done so much work
to really develop resources for these moments because
you know it's funny that I wrote a book on it
but it's not really something you can read in a book
it's something you need to practice and feel
and then that's really how the changes start happening
when you feel a difference um in those moments
you know I I one of the early kind of uh
aha moments for me in being a parent was um
I read the book 1 2 3 magic and it was really
really helpful to me not because well
and and it actually
it actually did sort of
reorient me a little bit towards
the towards what you're talking about because so I mean
for for people aren't familiar
the whole the whole process boils down to okay
if if the kid starts doing stuff
that is getting your dandruff
you count and you you say okay
that's one and when I when well
this is how I do it that's one and when I get to three
you're going to your room for four minutes
for my four year old it's one minute per year of age
and then it happens the second time
or continues to happen okay
that's two and then okay that's three
let's go take a break
and you go to your room for four minutes
and then obviously
that's usually kind of a total meltdown and
and then they go to their room and
and they'll kind of start to calm down a little bit
and then it's like okay
are we ready to
to be civil with each other now or whatever
so but the the
the aha for that for me was
putting the kid in their room is not a punishment
and it's not about them at all
it's actually getting them away from you
so that you don't go insane
and start being counterproductive and
and at least that's the way it worked for me
and and so like like that technique is actually it's
it's there to separate us
so that because they're just sitting there pushing
if I'm starting to get my dander up
it means they're pushing my buttons and
and that was my first little lesson about
about trying to keep myself actually not
not regulating myself
but rather keep myself from getting dysregulated and
and and realizing that playing angry
so to speak is never will never work well
it it will only make things worse
and so if I can if I can stay regulated
that's best if I can regulate myself
if I become dysregulated then then that's fine too
but but interacting with the children
when you're dysregulated
is only gonna make them more dysregulated
they actually expect I had a I had another guest uh
recently Jeff Owen is his name
he talks a lot about the biological imperatives
that children have
and one of them is that the adult is the adult
the adult is the leader
and if you start getting disregulated
then you are acting like a child
and that freaks them out
because then they feel biologically
they feel like there's no adult here
and if there's no adult here
we're gonna die and so then that is kind of terrifying
I would think what do what do you think about that
honestly I love that on a philosophy
what I really like to do is focus on parents
as leaders and having the adult lead in certain moments
and I talk about this a lot in my book
and sometimes it is our job to lead at times
and I think that it's really interesting
I think that maybe previously
the way that families were kind of set up
it was very you know
top down very do as I say
and I think that's what society used to really be like
and there is a trend now
where we are wanting to empower children more
and give them autonomy and I love all that
I'm so about that
but sometimes it's not all the child's way
and you know
it's not always the adult's way too
sometimes I tell children hey
this is a two way street
but it's our job as adults to know when to lead
to set limits when we need to
cause it's also our job to ensure safety
and when we can't set limits
and that's why I love to talk about it in a loving
firm way cause there's a way to do it
but when we can't set limits
or parameters or boundaries
in some capacity it can be very dysregulating
it can be unsafe but I love that it's
it really is our job as adults
to be able to lead at times
and it
it can be hard cause we don't want to be overpowering
but it's it's necessary to kind of
develop that skill in certain situations
yeah yeah
the metaphor that I use in this show and you know
listeners
it'll be really familiar to they
not they they already know what I'm about to say
a lot of them do and and that is I have this you know
your job is to create you're creating a castle
and what I mean by that is the castle
the important part of the castle
is that it contains a protective area
where the people under your domain are free
to live their lives and thrive
and so
the metric of success in how good your castle is
is how much area it can encompass
and how much can thrive under you
and it's great to let the kids do whatever they want
it's great to let the kids do whatever they want
but
they need to be able to feel like they're in a sandbox
where they
they know that if they start to get out of line
or they start approaching the edge of the sandbox
you're going to come in
and use your benign authority to
vector them back into the safe area
and so they're protected
and they will actually test you
they will go do things like try and get over the wall
and if you let them do that
you think oh well
you know I'm gonna let my
my my son do whatever he wants because
you know he's whatever it is
you let them do that they're gonna kind of freak out
yes because it that's not the way
that's not the natural way for them
and they then
they don't know
that you're gonna be there to step in and protect them
when when they're not aware
that they're doing something stupid
and that's that that's a form of
or that's gonna result in them kind of panicking
and that'll end up being dysregulation
that's my sense about that you you agree with that
I love that and what I have found to be so interesting
in my experience is
sometimes
I see the most dysregulation or challenging behaviors
in moments where adults can't set a limit
because sometimes you know
we talked about those children
that love to push buttons
and they they exist and I love it
they're looking for they're looking for a limit
it's kind of the child's job to see you know
where are the limits and yeah
you know I love
I just could have these conversations all day
cause I just find it be so interesting
but it really is when the adult can't set a limit
maybe they feel to cure
a lot of adults don't want to be mean
but it's like it is your job to lead
like we were just saying
so when the adult can't set a limit
and that's why I talk about how to lovingly do it
cause you can do it lovingly
then I find that the child just continually
keeps looking for that limit
and it's not just with parents
I do a ton of a work in schools
it's just really that adult child dynamic
when that limit can't be set um
it's very dysregulating and I completely agree
and I find that sometimes
the most dysregulation I've ever seen
are in those moments when the limits just aren't set
I have this thing that I do with my with
with both of my kids where
and I was really uneasy about it at first
because I didn't want to create this
kind of a drill sergeant sort of thing
but I ended up in this situation where my kids
weren't listening to what I'm saying
and so I'd ask for something to be done
and then it wouldn't get done or
you know it wouldn't happen and
or they wouldn't even acknowledge
that I'm talking to them
cause they're doing whatever they're doing
playing with Legos or watching the iPad or
or whatever and um
I finally said okay this is what we're gonna do
if I ask you to do something
or or or they'll they'll be like why
and and I'll say and I said listen
when you ask me why I want
I want you to be able to feel free to ask why
that's a good thing you should feel like
you should be able to question
why you should do something
there should be a good answer for that
and what I'm telling you is
there's always a good answer for that
I'm not gonna ask you to do something
unless I have a good reason
and I'm happy to share that reason with you
but if you immediately respond with why
then it sounds like you're just arguing with me
about whether or not you're gonna do it
and I can't have that so what I want you to do is
if I ask you to do something
the response right away is yes dad
just yes that
and then if you have questions or clarifications
or you want to push back
you're welcome to do that yes dad
but why or yes dad but you know
would it be OK if I did that in five minutes
because I wanna finish my game
or yes dad but you know
could that was a mess that that my sister made
you know can she help me with it
or can you have her do it instead
like those are all perfectly fine
but if you start it but
but I wanna hear yes dad first because I wanna hear
I wanna know that I've been heard
and I want you to acknowledge that that
that that's happened
and and then one of the things that initially
initially happened is my my
my voice started sort of over complying with that
and he was like yes sir and I was like
I don't want to yes sir that's not what we're going for
what we're going for is cooperation
not like this kind of obligatory response
and uh so
and I've really struggled I've taken
I've taken some flack for this
I've had I've had you know
discussions with people who disagree with this approach
and and all that stuff
but I'd be interested to know
it's a way that I
have managed to create a boundary that works for me
and works for the kids and but
you know I mean
I'm very sensitive to the fact that I
I I might be creating a situation that that is
that is not great
what is your what is your take on that
so what I what I really like with
they kind of talk about is
when we have to set a limit or expectation
or do something as the adult
that maybe the child doesn't love
in that moment what I always recommend
what really works for me
is to decide in advance what you're asking for and why
just so you know that you're coming from a fair place
because what's really interesting is yeah
these these moments get you did
but you wanna know that you're coming from a fair
and just place and you understand
your motive for why you're requesting something yeah
they don't necessarily have to understand
in that moment but it helps you because then you can
you know
hold your ground but if you're kind of doing something
you know for ways that aren't great just from the adult
then you wanna reflect on that
but what's really interesting is with children
you know and children
a lot of kids these days
like they don't follow what they're told
like these generations that especially
I work a lot with the really
like the preschool ones
and they really have a mind of their own
and they can be a bit strong willed
I love it but this do as I said
you know they're not
they're not responding really well to that
some preschool teachers are really having a hard time
um I find the adults that just
expect children to just do what they're told
are having a hard time
because the kids these days just don't do that as much
but what I like to do with
I find with children
some of the biggest reactions you're gonna get are
when they feel like they don't have autonomy
or like they're not
like you're doing something unfair or unjust
even if we understand that it's fair or just
I find that children when they perceive some unjustice
cause again I
I also work with like quite younger children
they don't really understand all
you know the situations
that's when you're gonna see a really big feeling
response cause they feel like they don't have control
so I also like to explain why yeah
with your yes but
I could I feel like if I how I kind of do it
if I give an expectation and again
let's say I've set up in advance what I want
and why and I feel okay with it
and let's say I'm ensuring safety
like it's whatever usually
if a child doesn't answer or something like that
I'll kind of like have them stop what they're doing
so they have my attention
and then I'll ask like did you hear it
yes or no and then
you know
what do you think about that'cause you're still kind of
getting there but it's like
sometimes I find it's the attention piece too
sometimes they're in their own world
yeah or
they know that you're taking them away from something
so they actively ignore
so just to kind of like get on their level and say
did you hear that and yes or no
like what do you think of that
do you need more time
and kind of like problem solve it in the moment um
could help that's what I usually do
yeah yeah
no that's it
that's good feedback I
I appreciate that yeah
that's and one of the early
another one of the early kind of
realizations that I had is that if my
if my boy would ask me to do something
he wanted to do something
often times my reflex would be to say no
I don't want you to do that because and
and it was just laziness
I didn't want to have to help you do it
I didn't want to have to think through the implications
of whether you do it I didn't
want to have to
so I just would reflexively want to say no
and if I allowed myself to do that
I would say no 90% of the time
and so I kind of forced myself to
only say no when I had a good reason to say no
so I I had to formulate that reason in my own mind
before I answered and otherwise the answer is yes
and then my default became okay
the answer is yes why are the reason
what what are some reasons that the answer can't be yes
and you know then I'll say no if I can't
and then what that has resulted in is
my kids both really trust me
if I say no it really does mean no
I don't end up in very many arguments
about whether or not
that's gonna be the answer
the answer is not gonna change
because I have a really good reason
and I'm and if they ask me
but why I have a really good reason to share with them
and so it makes my life so much easier
all of that laziness that I was going to engage in
in just not thinking it through
would have created all of this effort and drama and
and craziness later on or now
but because I put in that work effort in the beginning
then it it's it's now it's now a lot easier
and actually
my connection with my kids is a lot stronger too
and kind of there's a little bit more respect there
and that has been a really
really positive thing for me
yeah and I love that and the thing is
is that you're setting
up an environment that's collaborative
and that their preferences are respected
and when that is the foundation
children tend to be more regulated and more agreeable
when you do have to set the limit
because they know as a whole
you care about their preferences
and I love that too I do a lot of that
I give kids choices all the time and you know
we do their preferences sometimes
and then when I do have to
set a limit or boundary to tell them no
they tend to be more agreeable
cause they're not hearing no all the time
and then they just get really frustrated
so yeah I love that yeah
I mean I think about it
think about a world where where 90% of the time
you know that if you're gonna ask for something
it's gonna get denied well
the only way you're gonna get anything you ever want
is to fight for it and yes
so then you're gonna become fighting all the time yes
and you're gonna get trained to fight and by the way
I mean you also should kind of
be willing to fight for what you want
and so I don't know
it's good to train people to do that
but then that becomes exhausting as a freaking parent
to have my parents
they had to deal with that with me
I would argue about the color of the freaking sky
and my mom indulged me in every single
my dad was just like shut up and go to your room
like he was he was not having any of it
but my mom would indulge me in every single argument
I wanted to have
she would argue with me for two hours about
about whether I should clean my room or not
and then at the end of the story
I would end up doing it and
and my old my younger brother would watch this
and he was just like what are you doing
and so if my parents asked him to do something
he would be like of course I'd be happy to do it no
no problem but then he wouldn't do it
he realized
he realized that there's no sense in arguing
you'll just have to do the thing
just don't do it they don't check
so I don't know you kind of need both things
you you uh
you need to set up a situation where
there's not necessarily gonna be an argument
but you also
you can't let him get away with not doing it
yeah definitely
and I love so much just you know
modern day parents
I just love speaking with modern day parents
cause what I find is the trend is that we you know
experience something and then
almost every single parent I talk to these days
are wanting to do something different
than what they experienced
and that is so hard but that's the trend
and I just you know
kudos because it's hard work
but I find that that's kind of what
what we're doing as society
and it's kind of hard to teach children
something that you didn't experience yourself
it just takes that like inner
inner awareness a little bit too
and willingness to do the work
you know something I love about about your approach is
you know it's in the title
how to lovingly set a a firm boundary
because the implication in that is that
we all have an unconscious feeling
that setting boundaries is the opposite of loving right
there's something harsh about setting boundaries
but I mean what what you're making clear is that no
setting appropriate boundaries is an act of love
right and
and so um
and so I mean
I just I
I just love it and it doesn't have to be
it doesn't have to be harsh
it it
there's a way to do it and are there specific keys that
that make up a way to set a
lovingly set a firm boundary
yeah and we'll chat about it
I think I kind of had to learn this
you know the hard way
and the way that
when I first started out as a child therapist
I loved children so much that I never said no
never and because I
I thought it'd be mean if I
if they wanted something
and I had some control in a way to give it to them
and then I just said no I
this went on for a few years
and then you know
I started working and you know
like we talked about with boys after school
and a lot of them were you know
high energy
some had ADHD and there were swings involved
and there were a lot of kids
and it was getting to a point that
if I didn't learn how to set a boundary well
one I inner
like my inner world was just
I was losing my marbles all the time
and then
I would go home after work and be completely depleted
and I'm like yeah
this isn't working
when you can't set limits in some way
you become depleted cause you're like over giving
and so I had a few you know
hallelujah moments where I was like
something's gotta change
cause I was doing that end of no boundaries
and it wasn't working for anyone
and the kids were like they were regulated
they're bouncing off the walls so
and sometimes it would be my job to teach them how to
you know do handwriting or certain skill
and we weren't I had to get my job done
so I really Learned this
I guess kind of the hard way through
life experience that you know
setting boundaries as an adult
with children involved is so important
and like we talked about
when there's that inability to set boundaries
very dysregulating and so many of us
myself included when we were children
too many boundaries didn't like that either
didn't want to repeat that so with this loving piece
but it's also had a lovingly set a firm boundary
because a lot of people and
and boys too because we can talk boys girls
they they kind of have
sometimes you have to use different strategies for
avoid a really high active boy who's jumping off
could climb the walls if if he could
he would and then jump off the top
like you're gonna have to approach a situation
a little bit different than
maybe a girl
who's a little bit more timid
and just doing something else
like the boundaries still need to be set
but just in a different way
but it is really like we talked about
deciding in advance
what you need from the adult perspective
what do you need
to be able to get through this situation
and feel okay to not be completely depleted
because that doesn't work if we just give give
give give
give in our caregiving experiences and then we're
you know our cup is empty
it just it doesn't work
it's like
vacuuming a room without plugging in the vacuum
you're just going through the motions
but there's nothing turned on like
there's nothing like moving and
you know I just Learned all this through experience
but it really is deciding in advance what do you need
and then also when we do have to set the boundaries
making sure they're fair just within ourselves
like
making sure that whatever we're asking the child to do
is kind of coming from
and like an empowering place
like for example when the child is climbing up the wall
and wanting to jump off I'm gonna
you know have that be a teaching moment why
because I care about safety
because I care about this because I care about that
so it helps you navigate those
maybe kind of
conflicts you may have with the child in that moment
cause you're coming from a fair place
and then you can set the boundary
using that as guidance just honestly
it works out for everyone and the children too
when we're regulated the children are regulated
it just kind of works that way
yeah and they
and they learn that
that's the normal state of the world yes
like yes people are calm and people are like
it's that's a good thing and
and it's unusual for people
there to be a lot of screaming and yelling and and and
and all of that sort of thing
I I uh
I had a um I knew a family that you know
their kids are a lot older than mine and they um
so they're they're grown now actually
but when they were younger
the their the family's philosophy was
you know they had they had several boys and you know
boys will be boys and we I want them to be free spirits
and I want them to be able to do whatever they want
so they really didn't set many boundaries at all and um
as a result their their home was chaos
they couldn't go out to eat well
I went out to eat one time with them at a restaurant
and like the kids were throwing food at each other
and they were screaming and yelling
the restaurant like emptied out um
you know because everybody was
their kids were being so obnoxious
and I was very sensitive to that
I was just like
oh my gosh like that is that's insane and actually
as a result
the kids ended up um at least especially the older one
the older one is this really
really very good looking very bright
very just I mean this guy
you look at him and you're like uh
he's gonna rule the planet
he's so smart so it just has it all together
and yet he's beset with anxiety
he just really worries about what
whether he can make it in the world
and my takeaway from that
and I might be wrong but I decided
I concluded that
that was a function of this kind of chaotic
world that he grew up in
like he Learned viscerally that
that life is chaos
it can go anyway at any point in time
you could just be sitting there eating your milkshake
and have one of your brothers come up
and slap you in the face right
and and and
and and so
like that would be an anxiety producing experience
you think that the world is a battle zone and
and so like
you know even
so my sense about that is
is that his parents decision to let him be free
actually afflicted him in
in a way and that's a shame
because I think that his parents would have made
that choice would have made that trade off if they
if they knew they were doing it
yeah and I find that what I kind of
as I was reflecting on really this boundary thing
sometimes it's more of like emotional boundaries
or how much
attention you're going to give to a disregulating
situation because sometimes the environment can be
or the situation can be so chaotic but
and again we've talked about kind of that
just ability to self reflect in some capacity
because without that it's really hard to
you know understand what's happening in our inner world
but when we give all of our focus or
you know to this disregulated situation
it just kind of kind of focus in that way
but just being able to pull back at times
and not give all of our focus
and power over to something disregulating
it's more inner but exactly
and it it's really hard when we
as adults can't draw those lines
because then children kind of
kind of learn from us when in those young experiences
yeah
you know I
I always like to end these conversations with um
the similar question to everybody
and so I'll put you on the spot here
and that is that if there is one principle
that every parent listening should consider
when raising their boys into excellent men
what would that principle be
what comes to mind for you
I always love parents to feel like it's perfect
wherever they are because I find that
there's this part of the parenting journey where
and people can be really hard on themselves
for what they're doing and their choices
but parenting is so hard
and interacting with young children
really brings up a lot
of what's happening within ourselves
and just to be more loving
accepting and kind to yourself
where you are is really the best thing um
I recommend and that's really helped me
when I was doing all this work
just that self kindness piece
cause it's easy the judge or criticize
or think that we're doing something wrong
but that self kindness piece is so important
yeah I
I have had many conversations about that with myself
with my with my spouse and
and um
with other parents
and one of the things I settled on is that
the very fact that you're asking the question
puts you in the 98th percentile
yes yes
and so you can let that go
yes you
if you're wondering whether you're a good parent
that makes you a good parent
and you can let that go for
for the time being I mean
feel free to ask you the question
ask yourself that question in
in the calm moments and
you know ask it objectively and
you know figure out how could I
how could I know for sure that I was a good parent
that's fine those are
those are
those are perfectly worthy questions to ask yourself
but save it for retrospective
as opposed to in the moment
love it and even just the ability yeah
to ask that question like you're
you're looking in the right place
even that self awareness is some capacity
like you have it it's just that piece
some people don't ask the questions
don't really look inwards
but if you're doing that
then you're already doing the right thing
yeah yeah
I love it well
Colleen thank you so much for joining us today
on Raising Men thank you
and thank you and
and to you to learn
to listeners learn
to learn more about Colleen's work
check out her new book
how to lovingly set a Firm Boundary
and her children's workbook
My Feelings Workbook
the links are all in the show notes
um and as always
thank you for listening to Raising Men
and remember that you are a great parent
raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez
this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino