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Work like you’re not a parent.
Parent like you don’t work.
What if that whole system is wrong?
This is Full Stack Moms, and we are Mallory Lee and Shannon Curran, two working moms navigating tech careers, parenting, and everything in between. We talk about why the traditional rules of work don’t fit modern parents and how women in tech are doing things differently. Through honest conversations and behind-the-scenes stories, this show explores careers, caregiving, ambition, and the messy reality of having it all, just not all at once.
Connect with Mallory: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mallorylee/
Connect with Shannon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannon-sweeny-curran/
Produced in partnership with Share Your Genius
www.shareyourgenius.com
[00:00:00] Alina Vandenberghe: yes, I have fewer hours in the day than my competitors.
[00:00:03] Alina Vandenberghe: and yes, I might be behind some models. Maybe I'm behind Opus 4.6 or whatever, but, I am. Observing that I've drawn a quality that I would've not drawn otherwise, which is the ability to think long term in a way that's very grounding and gives me a lot more joy in the process where I can see myself in this role as a CEO for, I said it to my husband and he thinks he's funny until I'm 150.
[00:00:30] This is Full Stack Moms.
[00:00:32] This is not a parenting podcast nor a business podcast, but a place where we talk building careers in tech, raising kids at home, and making it work in public. .
[00:00:43] Mallory Lee: Happy birthday. Thanks for spending your birthday with us.
[00:00:45] Mallory Lee: I can't imagine in a better way. I really can't.
[00:00:47] Shannon Curran: Oh,
[00:00:49] Mallory Lee: that's a huge compliment. we're excited to talk to you today.
[00:00:53] Mallory Lee: well I thought to start off we could just get some fast, sort of like facts from you and, you know, a lot of people do like their lightning round at the end of. Their session. I kind of wanna do it in the beginning and just ask about your family. That way everyone kind of understands up front what we're working with.
[00:01:12] Mallory Lee: so how many children do you have?
[00:01:15] Alina Vandenberghe: I have four kids.
[00:01:17] Mallory Lee: Four kids? Okay. And do you mind sharing their ages?
[00:01:21] Alina Vandenberghe: Yeah, so I have two bonus kids. They're 21 and 18. And then the ones that I gave birth to are, uh, seven and eight and five. Seven, five. So, girl, girl, boy, boy.
[00:01:31] Mallory Lee: Oh, that's
[00:01:31] Shannon Curran: awesome.
[00:01:31] Shannon Curran: You have two cohorts?
[00:01:32] Alina Vandenberghe: Two cohorts, yeah. Love it. First cohort in training, second one. Still in training. Still in training.
[00:01:40] Shannon Curran: Still in training, yeah. Tell me about it. Always in training. Oh my God. Seriously.
[00:01:43] Mallory Lee: Cool. Okay. And where do you guys live?
[00:01:45] Alina Vandenberghe: during the week, we're in Brooklyn, and that's where I work as well.
[00:01:49] Alina Vandenberghe: during the weekend I have a good fortune of escaping Brooklyn and the nature, uh, we're in a town called Sag Harbor, where it's so beautiful and I'm so grateful to be grounding in nature, putting my feet in the ground, touching grass. Yeah. Touch
[00:02:03] Mallory Lee: grass every weekend. That's great.
[00:02:05] Mallory Lee: Yeah. and obviously you are the CEO of Chili Piper. That is where you work.
[00:02:09] Alina Vandenberghe: That's where I am, yeah. That's where I'm at.
[00:02:12] Shannon Curran: I
[00:02:12] Mallory Lee: know. Anything, Alina, anything say quickly about Chili Piper?
[00:02:15] Alina Vandenberghe: Chili Piper is the most beautiful puzzle I've ever worked on in my, uh, entire life. we are building agents for marketers and for GTM engineers and for ops people to create to help them create more pipelines so that they get promoted and get more, within the companies that they're at.
[00:02:29] Alina Vandenberghe: I can't imagine on working something more beautiful, at least for me. Hmm.
[00:02:33] Shannon Curran: And Alina, we didn't really, we worked together a few times when I was the VP of marketing at Mag Kudu, but we didn't really ever meet, so that's why I was like, in my mind, we knew each other, but I was like, maybe we didn't actually.
[00:02:44] Shannon Curran: So it's really nice to actually get to talk to you face to face.
[00:02:46] Alina Vandenberghe: Okay. Okay. Okay. Yes, we've exchanged some emails.
[00:02:50] Shannon Curran: Yes, for sure. I know. I was like, oh yeah, I know her. Then I was like, wait a minute. I think I've made that up. I was like, I think actually we just have been, been friends on the internet.
[00:02:59] Alina Vandenberghe: You know, it's beautiful for me that, well, for some, uh, some people it's beautiful.
[00:03:04] Alina Vandenberghe: For some people it's scary because I post so much of me online. When I meet people, they feel like they have the entire full story on me and me. I don't, they call it, I don't know what they call it, parasocial.
[00:03:15] Shannon Curran: Parasocial,
[00:03:15] Alina Vandenberghe: yeah. Yeah. Parasocial relationship. Yeah. And it's, imagine you meet people on the street and they know so much about you already, and they feel like they're approaching and they should, like, they're talking to you like a friend and you don't know who they are, and it's like, okay.
[00:03:28] Shannon Curran: That's true. So you're kind of famous. You're kind of famous. It's not your fault, you know, like
[00:03:32] Alina Vandenberghe: it just happened in, in our space, in our environment a little bit. So it depends. I am recognized, but, uh, and, and sometimes I'm recognized in Brooklyn too now, and in the elevator it's kind of like weird, but.
[00:03:43] Alina Vandenberghe: Yeah. It, it is what I got myself into.
[00:03:45] Shannon Curran: you ever think that would be a part of this job? Like,
[00:03:48] Alina Vandenberghe: did you
[00:03:48] Shannon Curran: ever think
[00:03:49] Alina Vandenberghe: Not at all. No. No, no, no, no. Two years ago, like three years ago, I, never spoke on any podcast. I was not on any stage and I told my marketing team, this is not for me. I am not going to be public at all.
[00:03:58] Alina Vandenberghe: Zero. but yeah, that was not what Faith had for me. The path that I was meant to work on is different. Yeah.
[00:04:08] Mallory Lee: Oh, you have such an awesome story that I think it's impossible for people to not find out about it and then want to do more of that conversation and, and learn about what you're doing. So
[00:04:21] Alina Vandenberghe: I'm so excited about that because I think that there are so few leaders at the top, CEOs who are moms and can post about all the challenges online and, uh.
[00:04:31] Alina Vandenberghe: I don't know of anyone who posts all their mom stuff as a CEO online, so I must be one of the few that that gives people courage that maybe it's possible. I dunno, maybe.
[00:04:42] Mallory Lee: Yeah. Yeah. I totally think so. I mean, Shannon's the CEO of, of her business, uh, her fractional marketing business.
[00:04:51] Mallory Lee: Yeah. So
[00:04:51] Shannon Curran: I made this choice when I went out on my own.
[00:04:53] Shannon Curran: I don't run a, you know. tens of millions dollars software company, right? I run a services business, but I like told myself, I'm gonna mom as loud as I can. Like, that is the thing that I promised to myself that I, I don't report to anybody. No one tells me how to do this, right? So this is really important to me to show other people that this is totally possible.
[00:05:13] Shannon Curran: Like, I got a message yesterday from, the head of CS at one of my clients. And she was like, I love all the stuff you're posting about being a working mom. She's like, I'm in my early thirties. Like I was worried about becoming a mom and not being able to continue my career the way I wanted to. or like that people would take me less seriously.
[00:05:30] Shannon Curran: And she's like, but I see that you're like doing really well and you're super, super, like. Probably potentially obnoxious about how much of a mom I am. Right? Like that is like, and I have really little kids, so I'm kind of new to the, the mom. I'm newer to being a mom than I am to being a professional marketer, right?
[00:05:47] Shannon Curran: So I, I think there's like a lot of value in that. And I, Alina, I think you're totally leading from the front in that place. Like what made you want to do it? Is it something you've always thought is important to integrate your work and your life and being a mom?
[00:06:00] Shannon Curran: what was the thought process behind that?
[00:06:01] Alina Vandenberghe: before I get, uh, to that answer, I'm curious, Shannon, what was the moment for you? Like, when did you decide to post and why? Sorry, to transform this podcast into reverse.
[00:06:10] Shannon Curran: No, I love it. It always turns into just like gal chat because we're all like, blah, like, uh, no, I, when I got pregnant, I, it didn't hit me.
[00:06:19] Shannon Curran: Then like, I was like, oh, okay. I'm just like, I just feel not great, but I'm still doing my job. Right. I didn't feel like a mom yet, and I don't even think I felt like a mom until my son was like. To be fair, maybe over a year, but during the newborn days, I, when I went back to work, I was like, whoa, like this is.
[00:06:41] Shannon Curran: Wild. Like I can't believe we do this. Like, this feels so crazy. 'cause now I just have, I've said this before, like 200% of the work that everyone else has. So like, I like don't understand how, and I'm like breastfeeding a baby during executive meetings and I'm like thinking about like, it's, it's just a lot of mental load.
[00:07:00] Shannon Curran: That's the part that I don't think you understand until you experience it, is like the things that you're thinking about all the time. And I just felt so comp, I've always been the kind of person that like. Loves to share my experiences, for better or for worse. Maybe it's like the Gemini in me, but I like, I just have, I can't shut up.
[00:07:14] Shannon Curran: So I was like, this feels so important to me right now and I have to share it. And I, because it feels so important for me to tell other women that like. I or other mothers or other, you know, parents for that matter, like, I'm gonna fight to do both of these things. Like, I, I'm not gonna, I'm so stubborn too.
[00:07:33] Shannon Curran: I'm like, I refuse to live a life where I cannot be my total self in all the places I am. And so I was like, maybe if I just am really loud about it and I just like come into, there's some kind of like grit about being your own boss too, of like, Hey, I'm, if you're gonna pay me this much money, I'm gonna do this job for you, but my daughter's gonna be on these calls.
[00:07:54] Shannon Curran: What do they say? Like, I guess they can say they don't wanna hire me and that's cool, but other people will take it early, you know? And I think, yeah, exactly. And it just felt really different. Like I had a lot more like agency conviction once I went out on my own, you know? And courage, right? Like there's, and it felt so important to me, like to, to make sure for women behind me, right?
[00:08:10] Shannon Curran: Like to pull them up the ladder of like. This has to continue to get easier. Like this can't stay like this forever and can't just keep getting harder, right? Like I wanna make this easier for people that are coming behind me too. So I think it was a slow experience, but it just kept getting more and more validated.
[00:08:26] Shannon Curran: The more and more I got into motherhood too, because it just gets harder. The issues just keep getting harder, right? So, I dunno if that answered your question Well, but that
[00:08:34] Alina Vandenberghe: definitely,
[00:08:34] Shannon Curran: but I wanna know your answer.
[00:08:35] Alina Vandenberghe: that's very interesting. I, uh, only started to post on social media about this kind,I hadn't posted before at all anything, not even on motherhood.
[00:08:43] Alina Vandenberghe: when my youngest one was two. So kind of similar situation like yours. And, the only reason why I got prior to that, I said, I do not need attention. It's just, I got used to being the one who helps and being the one who's like there for others, I was not the one that needed spotlight on me, so I, I just like didn't see the need for, for, for doing that.
[00:09:01] Alina Vandenberghe: what changed for me was something very specific at that time was the war in Ukraine when it started and I could see the moms and the babies kind of going to the borders and I was imagining myself with a baby having to start evacuating and starting, there were so many moms and they were close to my home country, which is Romania.
[00:09:18] Alina Vandenberghe: trying to find a path and with the diapers, without any money, without any kind of support, and I just couldn't stay silent. So I started, uh, posting online about the war. At the time, there were, there wasn't anything about it on, uh, in the news cycle. So I, uh, started raising money. I created a document to help the moms get to safety, to make sure that there's diapers, that there, there's milk, and, and all of those things that were needed.
[00:09:42] Alina Vandenberghe: And I could see that I touched so many lives at that moment where I got so many messages of people thanking me for spreading all this, uh, path, for, uh, making sure that there's donations at the borders, that people are getting into safety. And I, I'm still getting goosebumps and I could see
[00:09:59] Mallory Lee: Yeah. That's amazing.
[00:10:00] Mallory Lee: That's
[00:10:00] Alina Vandenberghe: amazing. And I'm not saying that as a, to, to talk about or brag about that. It was just like such a beautiful moment where social media can be used for good and for change and for impact. And it was not about me and myself like putting spotlight on me. It was helping the others. And I said, fuck it.
[00:10:17] Alina Vandenberghe: I'm not just not gonna stay silent if that's, uh, the, the things that I can create. So that's when I started speaking.
[00:10:23] Shannon Curran: And what was the reception like right away. Like I feel like people talk all the time now about like your, your content and how impactful it is.
[00:10:29] Shannon Curran: Like what's been the impact for you personally, since you were able to share?
[00:10:34] Alina Vandenberghe: I feel extremely privileged to be able to have an impact. I feel extremely overwhelmed as well. So for instance, today's my birthday and I got so many messages and so beautiful, like hundreds and hundreds of messages
[00:10:45] Alina Vandenberghe: On one side, I feel it's so I can't, I was texting my mom. I was like, I can't believe that I can spend my entire day just like conversing with people celebrating that I was born with. Like, I can't imagine like a more beautiful gift. And at the same time, I feel a little bit torn and sad because. the mom in me wants to respond to everybody and wants to make sure that everybody gets seen, everybody gets understood, but I'm just not able to do that.
[00:11:06] Alina Vandenberghe: I can't clone myself because I feel so strongly that it's me who responds, not an AI agent and not, not to an assistant that pretends to be me, and I just can't see everybody anymore. And it's like the inbox is a sea of messages that I can't respond anymore.and that makes me sad. And I just have to find the system and the rhythm and an acceptance inside of me that I will not be able to take care of everybody.
[00:11:28] Alina Vandenberghe: I will not be able to see everybody. I'll not be able to understand everybody, and that's very hard for me.
[00:11:33] Mallory Lee: Yeah. But at the same time, I think that you sharing publicly the things that you've struggled with or achieved or how you approach it, it's a way for you to still talk to those people without replying to them.
[00:11:47] Mallory Lee: So they still get that learning from you or that validation from you, even though you can't reply to everyone. So I think that that's,kind of like the next best thing maybe.
[00:11:59] Alina Vandenberghe: Yeah. I, I try to respond or, or to kind of reverberate the messages I'm hearing through many to one, like to the post that I have to have to, the impact that I can through that.
[00:12:09] Alina Vandenberghe: But it. for us moms, we're so wired to be there for others and to be pillars and to be providing, and when you create this kind of persona line where people see you, it's amplifies that. So I have the shadows inside of me that I have to face thoroughly. I can't be there for everybody at the same time.
[00:12:31] Alina Vandenberghe: even for my children. And it's so difficult.
[00:12:34] Mallory Lee: Yeah.
[00:12:35] Mallory Lee: I would love to know when you talk with your kids about Chili Piper and your work, and obviously your husband is very involved in the business too, you guys founded it together. how do you guys talk about work with your kids and how much do they know about your business
[00:12:51] Alina Vandenberghe: That's the most fun part of it all. And the reason why it's most fun is because. My kids are extremely different and they all like perceive the life and the lenses through their own little, little selves, and the versions of that are putting, so for instance, my 7-year-old. Loves Monopoly, loves, loves, love monopoly.
[00:13:09] Alina Vandenberghe: And he understands all the premises of the game and the renting and the properties and all those things.
[00:13:15] Shannon Curran: Yeah.
[00:13:15] Alina Vandenberghe: So he's gonna
[00:13:16] Shannon Curran: be an investment banker.
[00:13:19] Alina Vandenberghe: He see Chili Piper through that prism. So he asked me so many questions, how many customers, how much they're paying, how do they us? Wow. Yeah. And what am I working at work and what my challenges are and why I can't make this work.
[00:13:30] Alina Vandenberghe: And I'm like, oh, oh, oh. And he like put so many,
[00:13:33] Shannon Curran: it's like a vc.
[00:13:36] Mallory Lee: Yeah. Tiny VC,
[00:13:41] Alina Vandenberghe: I think is gonna be able to run the company better than I am. Yeah.
[00:13:44] Shannon Curran: VC, family, business baby. Look at that.
[00:13:47] Alina Vandenberghe: So, it's amazing to watch.
[00:13:50] Mallory Lee: But the younger one, not as much.
[00:13:52] Alina Vandenberghe: The younger one has a very different, zone of genius and it's around, joy and entertainment and comedy.
[00:13:57] Alina Vandenberghe: Sohe's only five, but he wants to be a magic influencer and influencer on in magic.
[00:14:01] Mallory Lee: Oh, fun.
[00:14:05] Shannon Curran: Does not care about how much, how many customers Chili Piper has Not relevant to him.
[00:14:11] Alina Vandenberghe: No. It's all about, ah, it's all about experiences. It's like, uh, he wants to create an experience.
[00:14:15] Alina Vandenberghe: He wants to sing and like display, uh, of things, which is also beautiful. 'cause part of culture and part of marketing is also about awe. So he's teaching me through that lens. I think that they're my best teachers really.
[00:14:27] Mallory Lee: Oh. That's wonderful. I have always loved seeing a few of the things that you post where you're at a work event, but your kids are there and I think that that's so fun.
[00:14:39] Mallory Lee: And personally, I haven't done that, you know very much. I've brought the kids to the office with me before, or I've taken them on a business trip before. But never to like a fun work event where they get to kind of participate in that. So I think that that is something that I've loved to see you share.
[00:14:59] Mallory Lee: And with your role, it's your show, it's your company, it's your call. I just think it's awesome that you've kind of brought them along in that way and you've normalized that. and it makes me curious, like if you see other employees at Chili Piper. You know, doing similar things. Have you seen that sort of trickle down?
[00:15:19] Alina Vandenberghe: I think it's beautiful that you're pointing it out, that the CEO giving permission to the employees is different because as an employee I could see that I would've had a different, mindset around it would been more difficult. We are remote, and we've been remote since 2016 and we see moms with their kids breastfeeding all the time.
[00:15:36] Alina Vandenberghe: We see moms with, uh, and, and dads also with, uh, their kids on their lap and on their back. And it's being so normalized that I don't even think of it anymore, but now I realize that maybe it's not that normal. Yeah. And other parts of the world is not that normal.
[00:15:50] Shannon Curran: Yeah. And how do you decide which events you bring your kids to?
[00:15:54] Shannon Curran: It's 'cause I know that like how amazing it must be to experience them watching their mom speak on stage and like watching their mom work and their dad work, right. Like work together. it's funny, my son this week, so my husband's an electrician. And so he goes to work, right? Like he leaves. And I had to kind of get my son used to the fact that dad's not gonna be there in the morning to get him out of his crib.
[00:16:13] Shannon Curran: 'cause my husband was off from work for like a year when we had kids. and the other day he goes, oh, daddy's at work. And I said, yeah, and you know, mommy works later. He goes, oh no, mommy doesn't work. Because he doesn't realize that what I'm doing is working. Right. Like he also, what a flex that I'm so present with my son that he doesn't even notice that I work.
[00:16:31] Shannon Curran: That's why I said that is I was offended at first, but yeah, I was offended at first, but then I was like, so I think it's kind of amazing when they get to watch you work, right? Like there's like, it's obviously very obvious to my son that like my husband puts on a hard hat and like climbs giant ladders and like doesn't do that at home.
[00:16:47] Shannon Curran: so what is your like decision like that to know when to bring your kids and like. You know, do you think about their experience there? Is it sometimes just like, yeah, as a family we just go to these things? Like that's just how it works, you know,
[00:16:58] Alina Vandenberghe: first I am very grateful that your husband is a electrician is needed these days.
[00:17:02] Alina Vandenberghe: It's one of the cool, uh, cooler job that ai, uh, has a harder, uh, time replaced.
[00:17:07] Shannon Curran: Yeah. He's not getting replaced. Yeah,
[00:17:09] Alina Vandenberghe: As for bringing them at events, it's been interesting. So, for instance, I brought them a Dreamforce with me and. Frankly, it might have not been the best decision because when I did, even though it was me who was organizing the event at a cool club, they wouldn't let him them in because they didn't want the liability to have kids inside.
[00:17:25] Alina Vandenberghe: Even though I was the one paying for the bills. Um, oh my
[00:17:28] Shannon Curran: god.
[00:17:29] Alina Vandenberghe: And I didn't bring a nanny or anything. I was just like, me with the boys. So me and my husband were there, so one of us had to stay with the kids and not come to the event. So maybe it was not the best decision, but I'm kind of learning and adapting because it's not, this is not normal, what I'm doing, nothing that I'm doing, it feels normal.
[00:17:44] Mallory Lee: No rule book here. You're making it up as you go.
[00:17:47] Alina Vandenberghe: So I would say that I don't have a role. I trust my intuition, knowing that if they're gonna have fun and I'm gonna have fun, and I'm observing that it actually with our customers and our prospects, it. creates better relationships because they can play monopoly with my kids or they can play chess or whatever the, the games that we're bringing in a bag.
[00:18:03] Alina Vandenberghe: and they get to know that side of me and I get to know that side of them. And it doesn't have to be so strict. And it's all about like goals and outcomes and, you know, like the kind of things that we get into at work. so it's beautiful, but it's hard to, I've found it. I just use my duration in the moment and I go and I learn.
[00:18:20] Alina Vandenberghe: Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
[00:18:22] Shannon Curran: Right. That's parenting, right. That's all of it. That's it.
[00:18:26] Alina Vandenberghe: Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Yeah.
[00:18:28] Shannon Curran: Yep. And they just move on. Like there's like, yeah. That's like
[00:18:31] Mallory Lee: try again tomorrow.
[00:18:33] Shannon Curran: Yeah, exactly.
[00:18:34] Alina Vandenberghe: More creativity that, that's what all I need is more creativity.
[00:18:37] Alina Vandenberghe: Yeah.
[00:18:37] Mallory Lee: That's wonderful. So,If I remember, Chili Piper was born before your children, right? Yes. Okay. So how did that sort of evolve, like you guys deciding to have more kids and the timing in the business? What were your thoughts going into parenthood as a CEO already?
[00:19:00] Alina Vandenberghe: So we started the company in 2016 and my husband had two daughters, uh, from a previous marriage and they, when I met them, and they were three and one, so we were, oh, okay. We had them half the time and at that time, we had them all the time.
[00:19:14] Alina Vandenberghe: And I had this, at least of understanding of what it takes to. I, I was just multiplying that by two and I could understand what parenthood really looks like. Obviously it's a little bit different when they're bonus kids, but, uh, at least it gives me some approximation. And I could tell you I was terrified of giving birth and having two more kids in addition to the business.
[00:19:34] Alina Vandenberghe: And in addition to, um, everything else that I had as, uh, responsibilities. the reason why I was terrified is I just couldn't imagine how I would be able to compete with others who have all the time in the world. Mm-hmm And how can I be able to compete and be at the same heights with other companies That started at the same time with me And this stark reminder, especially now because of the AI race.
[00:19:57] Alina Vandenberghe: So for instance, I was in San Francisco at the beginning of this week and I can see this AI native companies and their offices and how they operate. And there are generally a lot of kids, like in their, I call them kids, but maybe, uh, not really kids they're half my age and, I see how they sleep in the office in NAP pods.
[00:20:15] Alina Vandenberghe: They don't do anything else except work and they play with their cloud code and their FCP servers and like approval alarms and all that. And I can see that they have a lot more fluency than I do in this world, and they have an advantage of just having more hours in a day. I always had that in the back of my mind, even in 2016, that I will not be able to compete.
[00:20:34] Alina Vandenberghe: Okay. so I had a lot of fears around it, yet I could see that if I wouldn't have done it, I would've missed on a part of life that maybe it's a lot more important than dollar amounts and pipeline and
[00:20:47] Mallory Lee: mm-hmm.
[00:20:47] Alina Vandenberghe: Feeling productive at work. so at some point I believe strongly that the, uh, threat off is worth it.
[00:20:55] Alina Vandenberghe: And boy, I was right.
[00:20:57] Mallory Lee: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:58] Alina Vandenberghe: Yeah.
[00:20:59] Mallory Lee: That's great. I know what you mean. I think that when you are, you know, ambitious and you're doing well at work, you're at the top of your game, right? And then you're trying to make these decisions about what happens next. You do consider how it will change your performance versus the performance of others or the people on your team,
[00:21:20] Mallory Lee: Especially if it's, you know, largely other men. I think that it's just a very interesting sort of like thing to try to forecast and you try to forecast what you think it will be like and it's never. It's never what you think it will be, right? It's always something different with, with motherhood in general.
[00:21:40] Mallory Lee: What I hope by sharing some things, whether it's, you know, on this podcast or on LinkedIn or just with my friends, I hope it helps them forecast a little better, like what is possible and you know, what could happen, depending on how you choose to approach it.
[00:21:57] Mallory Lee: So I just love hearing like all of the different approaches for that reason. 'cause it helps people see, you know, maybe what they could try to do.
[00:22:05] Alina Vandenberghe: I, I do want to add that, uh, one unexpected outcome out of it that I would've not guessed ahead of time is that while, yes, I have fewer hours in the day than my competitors.
[00:22:17] Alina Vandenberghe: and yes, I might be behind some models.
[00:22:23] Alina Vandenberghe: Maybe I'm behind Opus 4.6 or whatever, but, I am. Observing that I've drawn a quality that I would've not drawn otherwise, which is the ability to think long term in a way that's very grounding and is very, um, gives me a lot more joy in the process where I can see myself in this role as a CEO for, I said it to my husband and he thinks he's funny until I'm 150.
[00:22:46] Alina Vandenberghe: And unlike my competitors who are just looking for an exit, because that's for them, uh, the ultimate goal. It's an, it's a goal of making as much money as possible. And they're retiring and like, how do they call it? Uh, fuck you Money, or something like that. And, and that's, that's, that's kind of the ultimate goal.
[00:23:04] Alina Vandenberghe: I have a lot of these friends that did make VA money and they observed themselves that. It's, they feel empty afterwards because at the end of the day, money is only one aspect of our, of our life, right? And at a certain point where you already have a roof of your head and you have food, everything else that's extra is not really that meaningful.
[00:23:22] Alina Vandenberghe: If you have an extra pair of shoes or an extra pair of God knows what, it doesn't really make that much of a difference. And, a lot of them hit a lot of dark times where they, they get into a deep layer of depression because they, the meaning is not there. Whereas for me, the meaning is already here. So I'm not working to find meaning I'm working because of joy and that changes the game.
[00:23:42] Alina Vandenberghe: So yes, some of the companies that I've started with at the same time might be more ahead of than me. Other others, many others have folded in the process. But I see myself a lot more here for the long term and the fact that I see myself in the long term. I make decisions that are going to allow me to survive
[00:23:59] Alina Vandenberghe: whatever things that life might throw at me. which I believe in this era where everything feels so chaotic and so, hard to predict is a superpower. And I would've not got that superpower if I didn't become a mom.
[00:24:12] Shannon Curran: Amen. I love that. I feel like that's it, right? Like I do think there is this perspective gained, right?
[00:24:18] Shannon Curran: With. Motherhood and having a family and seeing your kids grow and it's also so tangible in this like, very digital world, like you're talking about opus, like your kids are, are not LLMs, they're human beings. Right? And you're watching them like, like, well maybe you figured out how to make them LLMs.
[00:24:33] Shannon Curran: I haven't figured that out. but this like, really. Tactical experience of watching them learn and grow and the impact of them, it's right in front of you. Right? Like I, I always talked about my decision to go out on my own. It's like I would come up from my office and I visibly saw every single day what I was giving up by being in eight hours of executive of meetings where I didn't have control over my calendar or being told that I had to travel when I, I just wasn't ready to do that, right?
[00:24:58] Shannon Curran: Like it's freely, tangible and in front of you to say like, oh, these are the things that are happening and everything else is gravy. Right? Like,The highs are high, the lows are low. Like let's just try and ride the middle. which I think is like really, it also comes with time and maturity too, right?
[00:25:11] Shannon Curran: Like you've been in business for a long time, like you know that there are great. Parts and there are really hard parts. And like, Chili Piper's also a baby that you've raised, right? Like there's, or a teenager at this point, right? Like there's, you know, it, it's a part of the process.
[00:25:24] Shannon Curran: Right?
[00:25:24] Shannon Curran: I would really love to hear about the conversations you have with your husband about when you guys decided to have kids again, because you both were running this company together, right? did you take any leave? Did he take leave? Like, how did you support your kids while you were running your business?
[00:25:38] Shannon Curran: Like what did that partnership look like? did you have a primary parent and a non-primary parent? You know, like that's, I feel like you guys are a really unique case, right? Like, because you guys had the same job. So like what? Like what did that look like?
[00:25:50] Alina Vandenberghe: My husband is very unusual in that he wants a hundred kids in addition to, uh, running a million things.
[00:25:55] Alina Vandenberghe: so he is the one that reminded me of the beauty of life and what really matters at the end of the day. So I feel very grateful for that. And it comes with, his culture is very specific to the French culture where yeah, they focus a lot more on pleasure and on life and on relationships more than in my culture, which is Romania, where it's like the opposite of that.
[00:26:16] Alina Vandenberghe: I got through experience the joy of everything through him. when we started, uh, the company, I only accepted to start a company with him because he said, you are the CEO and I'm the president. And that's how he kind of convinced me to give up my corporate. at that time I was making a lot of money and
[00:26:34] Alina Vandenberghe: I was the primary breadwinner in the, in the family. So him saying, okay, I'm the president and you're gonna be the CEO, kind of got me inside. when I gave birth, I actually realized that I will not be able to be the full fledged CEO that I was when I wasn't pregnant. Being pregnant was like taking all my brain resources, and it was like, really?
[00:26:52] Alina Vandenberghe: Oh, it
[00:26:53] Shannon Curran: was the worst.
[00:26:55] Alina Vandenberghe: It's the worst. Um, so I, I stepped down as a CPO, like chief product officer because that's where my zone of genius is. Anyway. he stepped up as a CEO. And then when I came back, now we decided to be co-CEOs because he was able to take as much as I did. And we keep shifting our responsibilities, like what we are taking and what we are doing, but it's always around joy.
[00:27:15] Alina Vandenberghe: So, if we notice that certain things are draining, we try to hire someone who really loves whatever it is that we find draining. because we are crafting our roles around that and around what we really love and what we're really good at. it doesn't feel like a chore.
[00:27:27] Alina Vandenberghe: And it's the same at home. So for instance, I hate doing the dishes. I hate, I can't touch them. I make a mess out of them. I can't stand it. He loves doing, I hate them
[00:27:34] Shannon Curran: too,
[00:27:34] Alina Vandenberghe: so, so it's like a perfect for that. He can't stand folding stuff and I'm don't mind folding stuff. So we have the spread of re of responsibilities based on whatwe like doing.
[00:27:45] Alina Vandenberghe: So I don't have like a primary parent, we just have stuff that we like to do.
[00:27:49] Mallory Lee: So your co-CEO's at home as well?
[00:27:53] Alina Vandenberghe: He drives him to school. I hate driving at to school. I hate. I hate, but he loves it. So, you know, stuff like that.
[00:27:59] Shannon Curran: Yeah, I hate being outside my, my husband's like, we'll go shovel. I'm like, great.
[00:28:03] Shannon Curran: That's good news. 'cause I have a kid that wants to be in the snow all the time and I'm like, I just hate the snow. It's like, I don't, You have to find your other half. It really is important, especially in parenting. It's like we've both fight over doing the laundry.
[00:28:16] Shannon Curran: 'cause it means you get to be in the other room quiet. It's like the dishes are too close to the kids. You know what I mean? Like they're, that's
[00:28:24] Mallory Lee: funny. That's such a good point.
[00:28:27] Shannon Curran: I know.
[00:28:27] Mallory Lee: Yeah. The negotiation is never
[00:28:29] Shannon Curran: ending.
[00:28:29] Mallory Lee: I wonder if you guys have experienced this, So I work from home and for a while one of our kids was still at preschool, and so he needed to be picked up every day.
[00:28:40] Mallory Lee: Well, Brian goes to the office every day, so he would do drop off and pick up because he was the one leaving the house. And it just made sense because I didn't need to go anywhere. and the other boys would just get on the school bus. So he was kind of the primary parent at the pickup and drop off at preschool.
[00:28:58] Mallory Lee: And anytime I walked into that building, they were like, oh, mom's here. Like, I felt so judged because I wasn't the one doing all of the pickup and drop off. Mm-hmm. And they made it sound like some huge, crazy surprise that I showed up at school as, have you guys seen that at all?
[00:29:20] Alina Vandenberghe: I, I know that feeling because my husband also drives them.
[00:29:23] Alina Vandenberghe: so yeah, he always sees the teachers and the other kids as well. And it's my nanny who picks them up. so I'm rarely at the school, and I noticed that. If I had self-judgment about myself on that front, then I would take the others as self-judgment as well. depends on what time of the day I was.
[00:29:40] Alina Vandenberghe: Um, but if I didn't have self-judgment for myself and I was just like celebrating, I'm finally here, I made it, I was able to do it, then I would see their remarks as a celebration of what I was able to do. So it I always observed that. I only feel criticized in my own head if myself, I criticize myself or something.
[00:29:57] Alina Vandenberghe: Yes. That's something that I constantly work on. It's, that's a point how I reframe things because really we are impacted by it only if we believe it. Mm.
[00:30:09] Mallory Lee: Yeah.
[00:30:09] Shannon Curran: Yeah,
[00:30:10] Mallory Lee: I totally believe it.
[00:30:10] Shannon Curran: It, that's a big one. I felt, I was gonna say Mal was like, yeah, I felt that hard. Yeah. We went through a, a shift back and forth because when I was pregnant, I was also working a lot more.
[00:30:22] Shannon Curran: Not a good timing for that, that was terrible. but I, the second time around, my kids are two under two, so I was pregnant for like two years and I, um, Mallory did the same thing so she can relate, but I, always did drop off in pickup when my son first started daycare because my business was pretty young.
[00:30:39] Shannon Curran: And so I had like one client, I was still trying to figure out like exactly what my offer was and I was purposely taking it kind of slow, but we didn't wanna lose his daycare spot, so we still sent him. But I would like, so I would hang out for a little bit when I first dropped him off, 'cause he was really little, he was like five months old.
[00:30:54] Shannon Curran: So they'd let me sit down and play with him. and now if I'm there, it's like. In, out, up, down. Like, it's like we didn't never know who's gonna pick him up. Like I, every day it's like, alright, can you get there in time? Can I get there in time? It's like a negotiation. So yeah, the daycare never knows who's coming, who's going.
[00:31:09] Shannon Curran: and sometimes it's nana, I'm like, Hey, my mom's coming today. I was like, none of us could make it. So Nanas nana, the bus nanas run driving is coming to get 'em. But they're used to it.
[00:31:20] Alina Vandenberghe: It's fascinating to me because, I don't know if you observe, but generally women are a lot harder on themselves when they miss this kind of stuff.
[00:31:26] Alina Vandenberghe: Whereas men, they, they, you don't see that kind of self-criticism as much. obviously I'm generalizing a bit because different women are on different levels Totally. In the same with men. But I've discovered recently that there is this something called the DMN, the default mode, uh, network, where it's a, a part of our brain that.
[00:31:44] Alina Vandenberghe: In some people a lot more developed and especially if you're a mom where you are a lot more self aware of your actions and you are a lot more self-reflective, where if that DM N is of smaller capacity, you go straight into action, which is a lot more effective 'cause you don't have like that self-judgment and that self criticism.
[00:32:01] Alina Vandenberghe: so obviously people that have like a, a low D and perform much better because they're in action mode and they don't spend wheel cycles on criticizing themselves and like beating themselves down. So I am now becoming a lot more aware of that And for sure my DMN is like exploding and it's been exploding for the past couple of years, especially because it's amplified in my case.
[00:32:19] Alina Vandenberghe: 'cause I see so many people and I'm constantly watching it as, okay, you're self aware. You're trying to find things to improve them to make yourself better. But you only have eight hours in the day like everybody else,
[00:32:31] Shannon Curran: you just DM md, your DMN. You just like are talking to it.
[00:32:37] Alina Vandenberghe: I know you
[00:32:37] Shannon Curran: did you make it worse?
[00:32:40] Alina Vandenberghe: I just write down. I write down. I talked to it. I know you down.
[00:32:46] Shannon Curran: It is hard. That's so interesting.
[00:32:47] Shannon Curran: It's,I would love to hear a little bit about your experience of, like you just said, when you were pregnant it was took like so much of your brain, right?
[00:32:55] Shannon Curran: Like when you were like working and running a company in terms of the mental load of parenting, like as your kids have gotten older. I actually find that every time I talk to. My, so my kids are really little still. I have a 2-year-old and an eight month old, and so they're not like in a million, you know, activities and school's not asking me to do a lot of things for them.
[00:33:14] Shannon Curran: Like, I know Mallory had like Valentine's she had to deliver and like all this stuff. Like, I don't really have that yet. Like what is, it like now, like as you run your business and also have to navigate the like, mental load of kind of managing your kids' lives in a way where you wanna be present and there's just a lot of variables, right?
[00:33:30] Shannon Curran: Like, how does that work for you?
[00:33:31] Alina Vandenberghe: I'm observing that with every stage of, uh, their growth because I've seen like the movie before, like the most important piece is for them to have enough emotional intelligence and self-awareness to make really good decisions and be there, like for instance, I don't even get involved in the Valentine's stuff.
[00:33:52] Alina Vandenberghe: I asked them, okay, do you need to do anything? And he says, well, they said that we can bring Valentine's cards if we want at school. And I asked, would that make you happy if you bring it to the, to the other kids? And they said, no. And I said, well, we don't do it. And we, we only do it if it would make you happy.
[00:34:05] Alina Vandenberghe: It's fascinating because then they understand the consequences they see at school that other kids gave cards and they didn't, and how, how that made them feel. Did they make them feel excluded included? And I use that as an opportunity for them to self-reflect over the decision that they make.
[00:34:19] Alina Vandenberghe: So for me, nothing has really changed because it's just me being present for them for whatever decisions that they make. I don't make decisions for them, uh, unless they're like in danger. Um, right.
[00:34:31] Mallory Lee: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:31] Alina Vandenberghe: And it's fascinating because the way I perceive my role, and this is different for everybody.
[00:34:37] Alina Vandenberghe: Everybody has a different parenting style, but the way I am doing my role is as being there for them as a coach to remind them how wonderful they are and how capable they are. And. If they make mistakes, being there with them, what they perceive as mistakes, being there for them to reflect on what it is that they've learned out part of the experience, and having that ability to do self-reflection and what the impact they had on others, what impact they have on themselves, what, what really matters for them.
[00:35:03] Alina Vandenberghe: so for instance, in the case of the Valentine's Day, my 7-year-old decided not to participate, but he received a beautiful note from his best friend. And this note is like super touching. Like I can't imagine that the 7-year-old wrote like that. He said his name is Hugo. Hugo, I love that. You're so funny and so compassionate and so smart.
[00:35:20] Alina Vandenberghe: I can't believe that you're my friend. That was from like a 7-year-old. So cute. My son was so happy and so excited about it, and I said, how do you, how did that make you feel? He said, so happy. And I said, does it make you want to do something for Alexander also? And he said, yes, I'm gonna bring him something.
[00:35:37] Alina Vandenberghe: So it was like such a beautiful moment. Like he understood what was on the receiving end and that made him want to giving as well. Because if I do it outta force, if I say, because the school ask, ask you. So, and he, they learn to do things outta force, out of whatever everybody else is saying, then they don't have a good.
[00:35:53] Alina Vandenberghe: Regulating system. They don't have good intuition, and I don't want to raise people that just conform to the rules because that's not how we thrive. We thrive before ourselves and that's what I'm there to serve for.
[00:36:07] Shannon Curran: Oh,
[00:36:07] Mallory Lee: I love that.
[00:36:08] Shannon Curran: That's beautiful. We learn so much from these conversations. I come out being like, man, like this is like.
[00:36:14] Shannon Curran: Like, make me, give me hope that I'm gonna survive. What, say ages seven and five or eight and five or whatever. I dunno.
[00:36:21] Alina Vandenberghe: I think I would drive myself crazy if I would think that I'm responsible for everything. I would drive myself insane. 'cause I like, uh, I just, I can't do it.
[00:36:29] Mallory Lee: Yeah. It is hard. you want them to learn and you want them to grow, and you're afraid of decisions that they might make that are not correct, but you have to restrain yourself and think, okay.
[00:36:41] Mallory Lee: If it's not a good decision, we'll figure it out together. They'll learn from this, this is how they become little people. That can just be people in this world on their own. So it is a wild thing to see, as we get.
[00:36:57] Mallory Lee: Closer to the end of our time here, I, I wanted to see if you could tell us a little bit more about how you guys at Chili Piper, um, approach maternity leave and parental time off.
[00:37:09] Mallory Lee: And have you seen yourself put policies in place that, reflect who you are as a parent or is that a little harder to, to make work?
[00:37:20] Alina Vandenberghe: I would say that these policies we had, even before I became myself a mom, so it has not been as a reflection of my own experience in that we've never supervised anyone for their working hours.
[00:37:31] Alina Vandenberghe: We've never supervised anything on their computers. we haven't demanded working hours.
[00:37:36] Alina Vandenberghe: we've not demanded anything out of our employees except for results and results that are in base with what the industry needs. So not like. We invented results. So it's in like common acceptance of what we are expecting from that role.
[00:37:50] Alina Vandenberghe: so everybody kind of makes it work with whatever they got and they figure it out whether they want to leave, they want, they want to leave, they want to stay with their kids while they're playing, or, or not. The, I think that the hardest, in, in our team have the sales team, which have to be present on the call, and it's just harder if they get distracted in the call.
[00:38:06] Alina Vandenberghe: Yet, I've seen one of our top performers right now, performer, he has kids at home and he managed to make it work and he hits his quota, and they're littles. he managed to buy two new houses in addition to his own house from all the, all his, quota. So he managed to make it work. So I think it's up to our employees to figure it out.
[00:38:25] Alina Vandenberghe: Obviously we have, uh, a maternity leave and all of that, um, that that's generous compared to the industry. Yet outside of that, it's up to them to kind of figure out how they want to live their lives and how they want to show up. Yeah,
[00:38:40] Mallory Lee: that's great.
[00:38:42] Shannon Curran: So the only segment we've consistently done on this show is that we do it, we call it our save of the week. So whether it was like a process, a product, a person, that allowed you to be kind of a, a mom and working this week, like what is something that kind of saved you?
[00:39:00] Shannon Curran: I can start, most of mine are strategies for toddlers because that's like the, the where I am right now. and so this is what I've, I implemented a few months ago, but I, I noticed it worked very well this morning, so it reminded me that we did this. So, I remember my oldest is, uh, his name's Sebastian.
[00:39:17] Shannon Curran: So when we first got into this, like the part of Toddlerhood where they have OB Object, object permanence, they like don't really realize that if they let something go, it's gonna come back.
[00:39:27] Shannon Curran: so, uh, he really struggled with leaving things right? Like that's a very hard thing to do. Like whether it's leaving the house, leaving his blankies, leaving his whatever. Like food. So we started doing this thing where anytime he moves from one place to another, he says goodbye.
[00:39:41] Shannon Curran: Like, bye-bye. Like, see you, see you later. Right? Like to us or his blankie or his snack or whatever, right? And so, it's made getting outta the house a lot easier. It's made going into daycare significantly easier, right? So this morning he requested that. So he has like six blanks. He wants to carry around all the time, which is just like super impractical.
[00:40:00] Shannon Curran: Like it's not a practical. So I, I asked him to say goodbye to four of them in the house, and then we say goodbye to the other two in the car, which is okay. Duh. And so I dropped two off at daycare this morning and I said, say goodbye to your sister. So Willa was in the car. And, he goes, bye-bye, Willa.
[00:40:16] Shannon Curran: Bye-bye Blankies. Bye-bye crackers. Bye-bye. Car seat. He like just started saying goodbye to like every object. And then he went into school and he goes, bye-bye, mommy. And like, he got it. You know? It was this moment of like. Okay. This like little silly thing that we used to do the same thing at the grocery store.
[00:40:32] Shannon Curran: He wants to bring a, a balloon home every time. And I'm like, no, they live here so we have to say bye-bye to them so that we could see them when we come back. Right. and so it was just this little like moment of like, okay, like if he, like he understands what he says, bye to things like that, that he's gonna see them again.
[00:40:47] Shannon Curran: 'cause he always sees me again. Right? Like that's like he knows that I'm coming back. The blankies are coming back. The baby's coming back. Right. So, that was my save of the week. That ex like means we actually got into daycare without full meltdowns all five days, which was like a huge win.
[00:41:03] Alina Vandenberghe: I'm gonna give that tip to my sister 'cause she has the same age and she needs to drop him off.
[00:41:06] Alina Vandenberghe: It's gonna be really hard. That's a good tip.
[00:41:09] Shannon Curran: Yeah. Yeah. Object Permanence is challenging for two year olds, but object,
[00:41:12] Alina Vandenberghe: permanence. Yeah,
[00:41:13] Mallory Lee: yeah,
[00:41:13] Shannon Curran: yeah.
[00:41:13] Mallory Lee: Shannon has all the best. Systems, all the tips. I love it.
[00:41:17] Shannon Curran: I try. I'm in it right now, so you have to,
[00:41:24] Mallory Lee: oh, what saved me this week? I think what saved me this week is, uh, maybe my friend Molly. so I'm here in Chicago and we're just gonna have kind of a girls' weekend and hang out, and I literally can't remember the last time that I did something like this on my own. my husband and I will go away a lot, but not as.
[00:41:45] Mallory Lee: Just like a girlfriend trip. So I'm optimistic that it's going to be a restoring weekend, and I'm really grateful that she wanted to, to do this. So Molly saved me preemptively. I'm calling it now.
[00:41:59] Shannon Curran: I love it. All right, Elena, what's yours?
[00:42:04] Alina Vandenberghe: Something, uh, we're working towards, I've not yet found the light at the end of the tunnel, but it's promising.
[00:42:10] Alina Vandenberghe: we are observing that. Our little ones because I teach them to be so independent thinkers, do not like to be forced into any activities. So they don't like to be forced into taking a bath. They don't like to be forced into going to at dinner at the set time or to set up the dinner or things like that.
[00:42:28] Alina Vandenberghe: and I don't want to use threats either, and I don't want to use bribes either. And because I don't want to use any of these normal tools. what we're working towards is creating rules that everybody agrees on ahead of time. So, what's something that we can agree on? What time should we all be ready for dinner?
[00:42:45] Alina Vandenberghe: What, what does daddy want? What does you, what do you want? So like, actively involving them in the decision making. They love that we write it down on paper. We write contracts. Oh, they think it's the best thing ever that they're being, uh, treated like adults and they tell me, mommy, you did not involve me in that decision.
[00:43:03] Alina Vandenberghe: I felt really disappointed.
[00:43:05] Mallory Lee: Oh, that's awesome. I'm gonna
[00:43:08] Shannon Curran: trade it some monsters, but that's amazing. I love this. I love this.
[00:43:12] Alina Vandenberghe: Yeah. I don't, I I'm not raising obedient kids, that's for sure. I'm raising,full fledged, uh, kids, adults, and the beauty of them wanting to be involved in decision making and wanting to be part of the, this is that at school, the teachers assess them as super high EQ and super high on their responsibilities because whenever they notice that.
[00:43:31] Alina Vandenberghe: Certain kids do not respect the rules in the class. For instance, they have behavioral problems. They go and they talk to them, Hey, maybe it's because you're not being involved in those rules. Maybe you don't agree with these rules. Maybe you want to be part of the rules. You know, so the, the teachers are like really amazed of their, of their, uh, collaboration skills and consensus skills, which is like such a hard one to build.
[00:43:51] Alina Vandenberghe: But I'm trying to do it at home. It's very difficult because we all have different expectations and intentions and then so forth. But getting alignment on that, it's something that we're, we're working on right now.
[00:44:02] Shannon Curran: I love
[00:44:03] Mallory Lee: it. Good one. Yeah.
[00:44:05] Shannon Curran: It's so good.
[00:44:06] Mallory Lee: Yeah. Well, Alina, we've taken enough of your time. Uh, this was wonderful.
[00:44:11] Mallory Lee: On your birthday and on your birthday, no less. Uh, we hope you have the best birthday and hope we can talk again sometime soon.
[00:44:20] Alina Vandenberghe: Thank you for inviting me. This was the best gift for me. I derive a lot of pleasure from being able to be there for others like can mom. So for me, being able to be doing this podcast for you, I can't with you.
[00:44:30] Alina Vandenberghe: I can't imagine a better gift. So thank you for inviting me.
[00:44:33] Shannon Curran: Oh, it was so wonderful. Thank
[00:44:35] Alina Vandenberghe: you, my sister. Bye.
[00:44:37] Shannon Curran: Yeah, go talk to your sister.
[00:44:38] Thanks for listening to Full Stack Moms,
[00:44:40] We'll be back with more episodes that help you see you're not crazy and you're not alone. If we might be your people, please make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:44:51] Shannon Curran: Listen to two women who have never done IVF talk about.
[00:44:55] Shannon Curran: Talk about IVF. Yeah. My friends done IVFI know exactly. It looks scary, so I don't really know. Um, I was so queasy about needles before I had kids, and now I'm like, whatever. Go for it. Like I, yeah, it's so crazy difference. Yeah.
Transcription
FULL STACK MOMS | FULL STACK MOMS | ALINA VANDENBERGHE
Episode Transcript
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[00:00:00] Alina Vandenberghe: yes, I have fewer hours in the day than my competitors.
[00:00:03] Alina Vandenberghe: and yes, I might be behind some models. Maybe I'm behind Opus 4.6 or whatever, but, I am. Observing that I've drawn a quality that I would've not drawn otherwise, which is the ability to think long term in a way that's very grounding and gives me a lot more joy in the process where I can see myself in this role as a CEO for, I said it to my husband and he thinks he's funny until I'm 150.
[00:00:30] This is Full Stack Moms.
[00:00:32] This is not a parenting podcast nor a business podcast, but a place where we talk building careers in tech, raising kids at home, and making it work in public. .
[00:00:43] Mallory Lee: Happy birthday. Thanks for spending your birthday with us.
[00:00:45] Mallory Lee: I can't imagine in a better way. I really can't.
[00:00:47] Shannon Curran: Oh,
[00:00:49] Mallory Lee: that's a huge compliment. we're excited to talk to you today.
[00:00:53] Mallory Lee: well I thought to start off we could just get some fast, sort of like facts from you and, you know, a lot of people do like their lightning round at the end of. Their session. I kind of wanna do it in the beginning and just ask about your family. That way everyone kind of understands up front what we're working with.
[00:01:12] Mallory Lee: so how many children do you have?
[00:01:15] Alina Vandenberghe: I have four kids.
[00:01:17] Mallory Lee: Four kids? Okay. And do you mind sharing their ages?
[00:01:21] Alina Vandenberghe: Yeah, so I have two bonus kids. They're 21 and 18. And then the ones that I gave birth to are, uh, seven and eight and five. Seven, five. So, girl, girl, boy, boy.
[00:01:31] Mallory Lee: Oh, that's
[00:01:31] Shannon Curran: awesome.
[00:01:31] Shannon Curran: You have two cohorts?
[00:01:32] Alina Vandenberghe: Two cohorts, yeah. Love it. First cohort in training, second one. Still in training. Still in training.
[00:01:40] Shannon Curran: Still in training, yeah. Tell me about it. Always in training. Oh my God. Seriously.
[00:01:43] Mallory Lee: Cool. Okay. And where do you guys live?
[00:01:45] Alina Vandenberghe: during the week, we're in Brooklyn, and that's where I work as well.
[00:01:49] Alina Vandenberghe: during the weekend I have a good fortune of escaping Brooklyn and the nature, uh, we're in a town called Sag Harbor, where it's so beautiful and I'm so grateful to be grounding in nature, putting my feet in the ground, touching grass. Yeah. Touch
[00:02:03] Mallory Lee: grass every weekend. That's great.
[00:02:05] Mallory Lee: Yeah. and obviously you are the CEO of Chili Piper. That is where you work.
[00:02:09] Alina Vandenberghe: That's where I am, yeah. That's where I'm at.
[00:02:12] Shannon Curran: I
[00:02:12] Mallory Lee: know. Anything, Alina, anything say quickly about Chili Piper?
[00:02:15] Alina Vandenberghe: Chili Piper is the most beautiful puzzle I've ever worked on in my, uh, entire life. we are building agents for marketers and for GTM engineers and for ops people to create to help them create more pipelines so that they get promoted and get more, within the companies that they're at.
[00:02:29] Alina Vandenberghe: I can't imagine on working something more beautiful, at least for me. Hmm.
[00:02:33] Shannon Curran: And Alina, we didn't really, we worked together a few times when I was the VP of marketing at Mag Kudu, but we didn't really ever meet, so that's why I was like, in my mind, we knew each other, but I was like, maybe we didn't actually.
[00:02:44] Shannon Curran: So it's really nice to actually get to talk to you face to face.
[00:02:46] Alina Vandenberghe: Okay. Okay. Okay. Yes, we've exchanged some emails.
[00:02:50] Shannon Curran: Yes, for sure. I know. I was like, oh yeah, I know her. Then I was like, wait a minute. I think I've made that up. I was like, I think actually we just have been, been friends on the internet.
[00:02:59] Alina Vandenberghe: You know, it's beautiful for me that, well, for some, uh, some people it's beautiful.
[00:03:04] Alina Vandenberghe: For some people it's scary because I post so much of me online. When I meet people, they feel like they have the entire full story on me and me. I don't, they call it, I don't know what they call it, parasocial.
[00:03:15] Shannon Curran: Parasocial,
[00:03:15] Alina Vandenberghe: yeah. Yeah. Parasocial relationship. Yeah. And it's, imagine you meet people on the street and they know so much about you already, and they feel like they're approaching and they should, like, they're talking to you like a friend and you don't know who they are, and it's like, okay.
[00:03:28] Shannon Curran: That's true. So you're kind of famous. You're kind of famous. It's not your fault, you know, like
[00:03:32] Alina Vandenberghe: it just happened in, in our space, in our environment a little bit. So it depends. I am recognized, but, uh, and, and sometimes I'm recognized in Brooklyn too now, and in the elevator it's kind of like weird, but.
[00:03:43] Alina Vandenberghe: Yeah. It, it is what I got myself into.
[00:03:45] Shannon Curran: you ever think that would be a part of this job? Like,
[00:03:48] Alina Vandenberghe: did you
[00:03:48] Shannon Curran: ever think
[00:03:49] Alina Vandenberghe: Not at all. No. No, no, no, no. Two years ago, like three years ago, I, never spoke on any podcast. I was not on any stage and I told my marketing team, this is not for me. I am not going to be public at all.
[00:03:58] Alina Vandenberghe: Zero. but yeah, that was not what Faith had for me. The path that I was meant to work on is different. Yeah.
[00:04:08] Mallory Lee: Oh, you have such an awesome story that I think it's impossible for people to not find out about it and then want to do more of that conversation and, and learn about what you're doing. So
[00:04:21] Alina Vandenberghe: I'm so excited about that because I think that there are so few leaders at the top, CEOs who are moms and can post about all the challenges online and, uh.
[00:04:31] Alina Vandenberghe: I don't know of anyone who posts all their mom stuff as a CEO online, so I must be one of the few that that gives people courage that maybe it's possible. I dunno, maybe.
[00:04:42] Mallory Lee: Yeah. Yeah. I totally think so. I mean, Shannon's the CEO of, of her business, uh, her fractional marketing business.
[00:04:51] Mallory Lee: Yeah. So
[00:04:51] Shannon Curran: I made this choice when I went out on my own.
[00:04:53] Shannon Curran: I don't run a, you know. tens of millions dollars software company, right? I run a services business, but I like told myself, I'm gonna mom as loud as I can. Like, that is the thing that I promised to myself that I, I don't report to anybody. No one tells me how to do this, right? So this is really important to me to show other people that this is totally possible.
[00:05:13] Shannon Curran: Like, I got a message yesterday from, the head of CS at one of my clients. And she was like, I love all the stuff you're posting about being a working mom. She's like, I'm in my early thirties. Like I was worried about becoming a mom and not being able to continue my career the way I wanted to. or like that people would take me less seriously.
[00:05:30] Shannon Curran: And she's like, but I see that you're like doing really well and you're super, super, like. Probably potentially obnoxious about how much of a mom I am. Right? Like that is like, and I have really little kids, so I'm kind of new to the, the mom. I'm newer to being a mom than I am to being a professional marketer, right?
[00:05:47] Shannon Curran: So I, I think there's like a lot of value in that. And I, Alina, I think you're totally leading from the front in that place. Like what made you want to do it? Is it something you've always thought is important to integrate your work and your life and being a mom?
[00:06:00] Shannon Curran: what was the thought process behind that?
[00:06:01] Alina Vandenberghe: before I get, uh, to that answer, I'm curious, Shannon, what was the moment for you? Like, when did you decide to post and why? Sorry, to transform this podcast into reverse.
[00:06:10] Shannon Curran: No, I love it. It always turns into just like gal chat because we're all like, blah, like, uh, no, I, when I got pregnant, I, it didn't hit me.
[00:06:19] Shannon Curran: Then like, I was like, oh, okay. I'm just like, I just feel not great, but I'm still doing my job. Right. I didn't feel like a mom yet, and I don't even think I felt like a mom until my son was like. To be fair, maybe over a year, but during the newborn days, I, when I went back to work, I was like, whoa, like this is.
[00:06:41] Shannon Curran: Wild. Like I can't believe we do this. Like, this feels so crazy. 'cause now I just have, I've said this before, like 200% of the work that everyone else has. So like, I like don't understand how, and I'm like breastfeeding a baby during executive meetings and I'm like thinking about like, it's, it's just a lot of mental load.
[00:07:00] Shannon Curran: That's the part that I don't think you understand until you experience it, is like the things that you're thinking about all the time. And I just felt so comp, I've always been the kind of person that like. Loves to share my experiences, for better or for worse. Maybe it's like the Gemini in me, but I like, I just have, I can't shut up.
[00:07:14] Shannon Curran: So I was like, this feels so important to me right now and I have to share it. And I, because it feels so important for me to tell other women that like. I or other mothers or other, you know, parents for that matter, like, I'm gonna fight to do both of these things. Like, I, I'm not gonna, I'm so stubborn too.
[00:07:33] Shannon Curran: I'm like, I refuse to live a life where I cannot be my total self in all the places I am. And so I was like, maybe if I just am really loud about it and I just like come into, there's some kind of like grit about being your own boss too, of like, Hey, I'm, if you're gonna pay me this much money, I'm gonna do this job for you, but my daughter's gonna be on these calls.
[00:07:54] Shannon Curran: What do they say? Like, I guess they can say they don't wanna hire me and that's cool, but other people will take it early, you know? And I think, yeah, exactly. And it just felt really different. Like I had a lot more like agency conviction once I went out on my own, you know? And courage, right? Like there's, and it felt so important to me, like to, to make sure for women behind me, right?
[00:08:10] Shannon Curran: Like to pull them up the ladder of like. This has to continue to get easier. Like this can't stay like this forever and can't just keep getting harder, right? Like I wanna make this easier for people that are coming behind me too. So I think it was a slow experience, but it just kept getting more and more validated.
[00:08:26] Shannon Curran: The more and more I got into motherhood too, because it just gets harder. The issues just keep getting harder, right? So, I dunno if that answered your question Well, but that
[00:08:34] Alina Vandenberghe: definitely,
[00:08:34] Shannon Curran: but I wanna know your answer.
[00:08:35] Alina Vandenberghe: that's very interesting. I, uh, only started to post on social media about this kind,I hadn't posted before at all anything, not even on motherhood.
[00:08:43] Alina Vandenberghe: when my youngest one was two. So kind of similar situation like yours. And, the only reason why I got prior to that, I said, I do not need attention. It's just, I got used to being the one who helps and being the one who's like there for others, I was not the one that needed spotlight on me, so I, I just like didn't see the need for, for, for doing that.
[00:09:01] Alina Vandenberghe: what changed for me was something very specific at that time was the war in Ukraine when it started and I could see the moms and the babies kind of going to the borders and I was imagining myself with a baby having to start evacuating and starting, there were so many moms and they were close to my home country, which is Romania.
[00:09:18] Alina Vandenberghe: trying to find a path and with the diapers, without any money, without any kind of support, and I just couldn't stay silent. So I started, uh, posting online about the war. At the time, there were, there wasn't anything about it on, uh, in the news cycle. So I, uh, started raising money. I created a document to help the moms get to safety, to make sure that there's diapers, that there, there's milk, and, and all of those things that were needed.
[00:09:42] Alina Vandenberghe: And I could see that I touched so many lives at that moment where I got so many messages of people thanking me for spreading all this, uh, path, for, uh, making sure that there's donations at the borders, that people are getting into safety. And I, I'm still getting goosebumps and I could see
[00:09:59] Mallory Lee: Yeah. That's amazing.
[00:10:00] Mallory Lee: That's
[00:10:00] Alina Vandenberghe: amazing. And I'm not saying that as a, to, to talk about or brag about that. It was just like such a beautiful moment where social media can be used for good and for change and for impact. And it was not about me and myself like putting spotlight on me. It was helping the others. And I said, fuck it.
[00:10:17] Alina Vandenberghe: I'm not just not gonna stay silent if that's, uh, the, the things that I can create. So that's when I started speaking.
[00:10:23] Shannon Curran: And what was the reception like right away. Like I feel like people talk all the time now about like your, your content and how impactful it is.
[00:10:29] Shannon Curran: Like what's been the impact for you personally, since you were able to share?
[00:10:34] Alina Vandenberghe: I feel extremely privileged to be able to have an impact. I feel extremely overwhelmed as well. So for instance, today's my birthday and I got so many messages and so beautiful, like hundreds and hundreds of messages
[00:10:45] Alina Vandenberghe: On one side, I feel it's so I can't, I was texting my mom. I was like, I can't believe that I can spend my entire day just like conversing with people celebrating that I was born with. Like, I can't imagine like a more beautiful gift. And at the same time, I feel a little bit torn and sad because. the mom in me wants to respond to everybody and wants to make sure that everybody gets seen, everybody gets understood, but I'm just not able to do that.
[00:11:06] Alina Vandenberghe: I can't clone myself because I feel so strongly that it's me who responds, not an AI agent and not, not to an assistant that pretends to be me, and I just can't see everybody anymore. And it's like the inbox is a sea of messages that I can't respond anymore.and that makes me sad. And I just have to find the system and the rhythm and an acceptance inside of me that I will not be able to take care of everybody.
[00:11:28] Alina Vandenberghe: I will not be able to see everybody. I'll not be able to understand everybody, and that's very hard for me.
[00:11:33] Mallory Lee: Yeah. But at the same time, I think that you sharing publicly the things that you've struggled with or achieved or how you approach it, it's a way for you to still talk to those people without replying to them.
[00:11:47] Mallory Lee: So they still get that learning from you or that validation from you, even though you can't reply to everyone. So I think that that's,kind of like the next best thing maybe.
[00:11:59] Alina Vandenberghe: Yeah. I, I try to respond or, or to kind of reverberate the messages I'm hearing through many to one, like to the post that I have to have to, the impact that I can through that.
[00:12:09] Alina Vandenberghe: But it. for us moms, we're so wired to be there for others and to be pillars and to be providing, and when you create this kind of persona line where people see you, it's amplifies that. So I have the shadows inside of me that I have to face thoroughly. I can't be there for everybody at the same time.
[00:12:31] Alina Vandenberghe: even for my children. And it's so difficult.
[00:12:34] Mallory Lee: Yeah.
[00:12:35] Mallory Lee: I would love to know when you talk with your kids about Chili Piper and your work, and obviously your husband is very involved in the business too, you guys founded it together. how do you guys talk about work with your kids and how much do they know about your business
[00:12:51] Alina Vandenberghe: That's the most fun part of it all. And the reason why it's most fun is because. My kids are extremely different and they all like perceive the life and the lenses through their own little, little selves, and the versions of that are putting, so for instance, my 7-year-old. Loves Monopoly, loves, loves, love monopoly.
[00:13:09] Alina Vandenberghe: And he understands all the premises of the game and the renting and the properties and all those things.
[00:13:15] Shannon Curran: Yeah.
[00:13:15] Alina Vandenberghe: So he's gonna
[00:13:16] Shannon Curran: be an investment banker.
[00:13:19] Alina Vandenberghe: He see Chili Piper through that prism. So he asked me so many questions, how many customers, how much they're paying, how do they us? Wow. Yeah. And what am I working at work and what my challenges are and why I can't make this work.
[00:13:30] Alina Vandenberghe: And I'm like, oh, oh, oh. And he like put so many,
[00:13:33] Shannon Curran: it's like a vc.
[00:13:36] Mallory Lee: Yeah. Tiny VC,
[00:13:41] Alina Vandenberghe: I think is gonna be able to run the company better than I am. Yeah.
[00:13:44] Shannon Curran: VC, family, business baby. Look at that.
[00:13:47] Alina Vandenberghe: So, it's amazing to watch.
[00:13:50] Mallory Lee: But the younger one, not as much.
[00:13:52] Alina Vandenberghe: The younger one has a very different, zone of genius and it's around, joy and entertainment and comedy.
[00:13:57] Alina Vandenberghe: Sohe's only five, but he wants to be a magic influencer and influencer on in magic.
[00:14:01] Mallory Lee: Oh, fun.
[00:14:05] Shannon Curran: Does not care about how much, how many customers Chili Piper has Not relevant to him.
[00:14:11] Alina Vandenberghe: No. It's all about, ah, it's all about experiences. It's like, uh, he wants to create an experience.
[00:14:15] Alina Vandenberghe: He wants to sing and like display, uh, of things, which is also beautiful. 'cause part of culture and part of marketing is also about awe. So he's teaching me through that lens. I think that they're my best teachers really.
[00:14:27] Mallory Lee: Oh. That's wonderful. I have always loved seeing a few of the things that you post where you're at a work event, but your kids are there and I think that that's so fun.
[00:14:39] Mallory Lee: And personally, I haven't done that, you know very much. I've brought the kids to the office with me before, or I've taken them on a business trip before. But never to like a fun work event where they get to kind of participate in that. So I think that that is something that I've loved to see you share.
[00:14:59] Mallory Lee: And with your role, it's your show, it's your company, it's your call. I just think it's awesome that you've kind of brought them along in that way and you've normalized that. and it makes me curious, like if you see other employees at Chili Piper. You know, doing similar things. Have you seen that sort of trickle down?
[00:15:19] Alina Vandenberghe: I think it's beautiful that you're pointing it out, that the CEO giving permission to the employees is different because as an employee I could see that I would've had a different, mindset around it would been more difficult. We are remote, and we've been remote since 2016 and we see moms with their kids breastfeeding all the time.
[00:15:36] Alina Vandenberghe: We see moms with, uh, and, and dads also with, uh, their kids on their lap and on their back. And it's being so normalized that I don't even think of it anymore, but now I realize that maybe it's not that normal. Yeah. And other parts of the world is not that normal.
[00:15:50] Shannon Curran: Yeah. And how do you decide which events you bring your kids to?
[00:15:54] Shannon Curran: It's 'cause I know that like how amazing it must be to experience them watching their mom speak on stage and like watching their mom work and their dad work, right. Like work together. it's funny, my son this week, so my husband's an electrician. And so he goes to work, right? Like he leaves. And I had to kind of get my son used to the fact that dad's not gonna be there in the morning to get him out of his crib.
[00:16:13] Shannon Curran: 'cause my husband was off from work for like a year when we had kids. and the other day he goes, oh, daddy's at work. And I said, yeah, and you know, mommy works later. He goes, oh no, mommy doesn't work. Because he doesn't realize that what I'm doing is working. Right. Like he also, what a flex that I'm so present with my son that he doesn't even notice that I work.
[00:16:31] Shannon Curran: That's why I said that is I was offended at first, but yeah, I was offended at first, but then I was like, so I think it's kind of amazing when they get to watch you work, right? Like there's like, it's obviously very obvious to my son that like my husband puts on a hard hat and like climbs giant ladders and like doesn't do that at home.
[00:16:47] Shannon Curran: so what is your like decision like that to know when to bring your kids and like. You know, do you think about their experience there? Is it sometimes just like, yeah, as a family we just go to these things? Like that's just how it works, you know,
[00:16:58] Alina Vandenberghe: first I am very grateful that your husband is a electrician is needed these days.
[00:17:02] Alina Vandenberghe: It's one of the cool, uh, cooler job that ai, uh, has a harder, uh, time replaced.
[00:17:07] Shannon Curran: Yeah. He's not getting replaced. Yeah,
[00:17:09] Alina Vandenberghe: As for bringing them at events, it's been interesting. So, for instance, I brought them a Dreamforce with me and. Frankly, it might have not been the best decision because when I did, even though it was me who was organizing the event at a cool club, they wouldn't let him them in because they didn't want the liability to have kids inside.
[00:17:25] Alina Vandenberghe: Even though I was the one paying for the bills. Um, oh my
[00:17:28] Shannon Curran: god.
[00:17:29] Alina Vandenberghe: And I didn't bring a nanny or anything. I was just like, me with the boys. So me and my husband were there, so one of us had to stay with the kids and not come to the event. So maybe it was not the best decision, but I'm kind of learning and adapting because it's not, this is not normal, what I'm doing, nothing that I'm doing, it feels normal.
[00:17:44] Mallory Lee: No rule book here. You're making it up as you go.
[00:17:47] Alina Vandenberghe: So I would say that I don't have a role. I trust my intuition, knowing that if they're gonna have fun and I'm gonna have fun, and I'm observing that it actually with our customers and our prospects, it. creates better relationships because they can play monopoly with my kids or they can play chess or whatever the, the games that we're bringing in a bag.
[00:18:03] Alina Vandenberghe: and they get to know that side of me and I get to know that side of them. And it doesn't have to be so strict. And it's all about like goals and outcomes and, you know, like the kind of things that we get into at work. so it's beautiful, but it's hard to, I've found it. I just use my duration in the moment and I go and I learn.
[00:18:20] Alina Vandenberghe: Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
[00:18:22] Shannon Curran: Right. That's parenting, right. That's all of it. That's it.
[00:18:26] Alina Vandenberghe: Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Yeah.
[00:18:28] Shannon Curran: Yep. And they just move on. Like there's like, yeah. That's like
[00:18:31] Mallory Lee: try again tomorrow.
[00:18:33] Shannon Curran: Yeah, exactly.
[00:18:34] Alina Vandenberghe: More creativity that, that's what all I need is more creativity.
[00:18:37] Alina Vandenberghe: Yeah.
[00:18:37] Mallory Lee: That's wonderful. So,If I remember, Chili Piper was born before your children, right? Yes. Okay. So how did that sort of evolve, like you guys deciding to have more kids and the timing in the business? What were your thoughts going into parenthood as a CEO already?
[00:19:00] Alina Vandenberghe: So we started the company in 2016 and my husband had two daughters, uh, from a previous marriage and they, when I met them, and they were three and one, so we were, oh, okay. We had them half the time and at that time, we had them all the time.
[00:19:14] Alina Vandenberghe: And I had this, at least of understanding of what it takes to. I, I was just multiplying that by two and I could understand what parenthood really looks like. Obviously it's a little bit different when they're bonus kids, but, uh, at least it gives me some approximation. And I could tell you I was terrified of giving birth and having two more kids in addition to the business.
[00:19:34] Alina Vandenberghe: And in addition to, um, everything else that I had as, uh, responsibilities. the reason why I was terrified is I just couldn't imagine how I would be able to compete with others who have all the time in the world. Mm-hmm And how can I be able to compete and be at the same heights with other companies That started at the same time with me And this stark reminder, especially now because of the AI race.
[00:19:57] Alina Vandenberghe: So for instance, I was in San Francisco at the beginning of this week and I can see this AI native companies and their offices and how they operate. And there are generally a lot of kids, like in their, I call them kids, but maybe, uh, not really kids they're half my age and, I see how they sleep in the office in NAP pods.
[00:20:15] Alina Vandenberghe: They don't do anything else except work and they play with their cloud code and their FCP servers and like approval alarms and all that. And I can see that they have a lot more fluency than I do in this world, and they have an advantage of just having more hours in a day. I always had that in the back of my mind, even in 2016, that I will not be able to compete.
[00:20:34] Alina Vandenberghe: Okay. so I had a lot of fears around it, yet I could see that if I wouldn't have done it, I would've missed on a part of life that maybe it's a lot more important than dollar amounts and pipeline and
[00:20:47] Mallory Lee: mm-hmm.
[00:20:47] Alina Vandenberghe: Feeling productive at work. so at some point I believe strongly that the, uh, threat off is worth it.
[00:20:55] Alina Vandenberghe: And boy, I was right.
[00:20:57] Mallory Lee: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:58] Alina Vandenberghe: Yeah.
[00:20:59] Mallory Lee: That's great. I know what you mean. I think that when you are, you know, ambitious and you're doing well at work, you're at the top of your game, right? And then you're trying to make these decisions about what happens next. You do consider how it will change your performance versus the performance of others or the people on your team,
[00:21:20] Mallory Lee: Especially if it's, you know, largely other men. I think that it's just a very interesting sort of like thing to try to forecast and you try to forecast what you think it will be like and it's never. It's never what you think it will be, right? It's always something different with, with motherhood in general.
[00:21:40] Mallory Lee: What I hope by sharing some things, whether it's, you know, on this podcast or on LinkedIn or just with my friends, I hope it helps them forecast a little better, like what is possible and you know, what could happen, depending on how you choose to approach it.
[00:21:57] Mallory Lee: So I just love hearing like all of the different approaches for that reason. 'cause it helps people see, you know, maybe what they could try to do.
[00:22:05] Alina Vandenberghe: I, I do want to add that, uh, one unexpected outcome out of it that I would've not guessed ahead of time is that while, yes, I have fewer hours in the day than my competitors.
[00:22:17] Alina Vandenberghe: and yes, I might be behind some models.
[00:22:23] Alina Vandenberghe: Maybe I'm behind Opus 4.6 or whatever, but, I am. Observing that I've drawn a quality that I would've not drawn otherwise, which is the ability to think long term in a way that's very grounding and is very, um, gives me a lot more joy in the process where I can see myself in this role as a CEO for, I said it to my husband and he thinks he's funny until I'm 150.
[00:22:46] Alina Vandenberghe: And unlike my competitors who are just looking for an exit, because that's for them, uh, the ultimate goal. It's an, it's a goal of making as much money as possible. And they're retiring and like, how do they call it? Uh, fuck you Money, or something like that. And, and that's, that's, that's kind of the ultimate goal.
[00:23:04] Alina Vandenberghe: I have a lot of these friends that did make VA money and they observed themselves that. It's, they feel empty afterwards because at the end of the day, money is only one aspect of our, of our life, right? And at a certain point where you already have a roof of your head and you have food, everything else that's extra is not really that meaningful.
[00:23:22] Alina Vandenberghe: If you have an extra pair of shoes or an extra pair of God knows what, it doesn't really make that much of a difference. And, a lot of them hit a lot of dark times where they, they get into a deep layer of depression because they, the meaning is not there. Whereas for me, the meaning is already here. So I'm not working to find meaning I'm working because of joy and that changes the game.
[00:23:42] Alina Vandenberghe: So yes, some of the companies that I've started with at the same time might be more ahead of than me. Other others, many others have folded in the process. But I see myself a lot more here for the long term and the fact that I see myself in the long term. I make decisions that are going to allow me to survive
[00:23:59] Alina Vandenberghe: whatever things that life might throw at me. which I believe in this era where everything feels so chaotic and so, hard to predict is a superpower. And I would've not got that superpower if I didn't become a mom.
[00:24:12] Shannon Curran: Amen. I love that. I feel like that's it, right? Like I do think there is this perspective gained, right?
[00:24:18] Shannon Curran: With. Motherhood and having a family and seeing your kids grow and it's also so tangible in this like, very digital world, like you're talking about opus, like your kids are, are not LLMs, they're human beings. Right? And you're watching them like, like, well maybe you figured out how to make them LLMs.
[00:24:33] Shannon Curran: I haven't figured that out. but this like, really. Tactical experience of watching them learn and grow and the impact of them, it's right in front of you. Right? Like I, I always talked about my decision to go out on my own. It's like I would come up from my office and I visibly saw every single day what I was giving up by being in eight hours of executive of meetings where I didn't have control over my calendar or being told that I had to travel when I, I just wasn't ready to do that, right?
[00:24:58] Shannon Curran: Like it's freely, tangible and in front of you to say like, oh, these are the things that are happening and everything else is gravy. Right? Like,The highs are high, the lows are low. Like let's just try and ride the middle. which I think is like really, it also comes with time and maturity too, right?
[00:25:11] Shannon Curran: Like you've been in business for a long time, like you know that there are great. Parts and there are really hard parts. And like, Chili Piper's also a baby that you've raised, right? Like there's, or a teenager at this point, right? Like there's, you know, it, it's a part of the process.
[00:25:24] Shannon Curran: Right?
[00:25:24] Shannon Curran: I would really love to hear about the conversations you have with your husband about when you guys decided to have kids again, because you both were running this company together, right? did you take any leave? Did he take leave? Like, how did you support your kids while you were running your business?
[00:25:38] Shannon Curran: Like what did that partnership look like? did you have a primary parent and a non-primary parent? You know, like that's, I feel like you guys are a really unique case, right? Like, because you guys had the same job. So like what? Like what did that look like?
[00:25:50] Alina Vandenberghe: My husband is very unusual in that he wants a hundred kids in addition to, uh, running a million things.
[00:25:55] Alina Vandenberghe: so he is the one that reminded me of the beauty of life and what really matters at the end of the day. So I feel very grateful for that. And it comes with, his culture is very specific to the French culture where yeah, they focus a lot more on pleasure and on life and on relationships more than in my culture, which is Romania, where it's like the opposite of that.
[00:26:16] Alina Vandenberghe: I got through experience the joy of everything through him. when we started, uh, the company, I only accepted to start a company with him because he said, you are the CEO and I'm the president. And that's how he kind of convinced me to give up my corporate. at that time I was making a lot of money and
[00:26:34] Alina Vandenberghe: I was the primary breadwinner in the, in the family. So him saying, okay, I'm the president and you're gonna be the CEO, kind of got me inside. when I gave birth, I actually realized that I will not be able to be the full fledged CEO that I was when I wasn't pregnant. Being pregnant was like taking all my brain resources, and it was like, really?
[00:26:52] Alina Vandenberghe: Oh, it
[00:26:53] Shannon Curran: was the worst.
[00:26:55] Alina Vandenberghe: It's the worst. Um, so I, I stepped down as a CPO, like chief product officer because that's where my zone of genius is. Anyway. he stepped up as a CEO. And then when I came back, now we decided to be co-CEOs because he was able to take as much as I did. And we keep shifting our responsibilities, like what we are taking and what we are doing, but it's always around joy.
[00:27:15] Alina Vandenberghe: So, if we notice that certain things are draining, we try to hire someone who really loves whatever it is that we find draining. because we are crafting our roles around that and around what we really love and what we're really good at. it doesn't feel like a chore.
[00:27:27] Alina Vandenberghe: And it's the same at home. So for instance, I hate doing the dishes. I hate, I can't touch them. I make a mess out of them. I can't stand it. He loves doing, I hate them
[00:27:34] Shannon Curran: too,
[00:27:34] Alina Vandenberghe: so, so it's like a perfect for that. He can't stand folding stuff and I'm don't mind folding stuff. So we have the spread of re of responsibilities based on whatwe like doing.
[00:27:45] Alina Vandenberghe: So I don't have like a primary parent, we just have stuff that we like to do.
[00:27:49] Mallory Lee: So your co-CEO's at home as well?
[00:27:53] Alina Vandenberghe: He drives him to school. I hate driving at to school. I hate. I hate, but he loves it. So, you know, stuff like that.
[00:27:59] Shannon Curran: Yeah, I hate being outside my, my husband's like, we'll go shovel. I'm like, great.
[00:28:03] Shannon Curran: That's good news. 'cause I have a kid that wants to be in the snow all the time and I'm like, I just hate the snow. It's like, I don't, You have to find your other half. It really is important, especially in parenting. It's like we've both fight over doing the laundry.
[00:28:16] Shannon Curran: 'cause it means you get to be in the other room quiet. It's like the dishes are too close to the kids. You know what I mean? Like they're, that's
[00:28:24] Mallory Lee: funny. That's such a good point.
[00:28:27] Shannon Curran: I know.
[00:28:27] Mallory Lee: Yeah. The negotiation is never
[00:28:29] Shannon Curran: ending.
[00:28:29] Mallory Lee: I wonder if you guys have experienced this, So I work from home and for a while one of our kids was still at preschool, and so he needed to be picked up every day.
[00:28:40] Mallory Lee: Well, Brian goes to the office every day, so he would do drop off and pick up because he was the one leaving the house. And it just made sense because I didn't need to go anywhere. and the other boys would just get on the school bus. So he was kind of the primary parent at the pickup and drop off at preschool.
[00:28:58] Mallory Lee: And anytime I walked into that building, they were like, oh, mom's here. Like, I felt so judged because I wasn't the one doing all of the pickup and drop off. Mm-hmm. And they made it sound like some huge, crazy surprise that I showed up at school as, have you guys seen that at all?
[00:29:20] Alina Vandenberghe: I, I know that feeling because my husband also drives them.
[00:29:23] Alina Vandenberghe: so yeah, he always sees the teachers and the other kids as well. And it's my nanny who picks them up. so I'm rarely at the school, and I noticed that. If I had self-judgment about myself on that front, then I would take the others as self-judgment as well. depends on what time of the day I was.
[00:29:40] Alina Vandenberghe: Um, but if I didn't have self-judgment for myself and I was just like celebrating, I'm finally here, I made it, I was able to do it, then I would see their remarks as a celebration of what I was able to do. So it I always observed that. I only feel criticized in my own head if myself, I criticize myself or something.
[00:29:57] Alina Vandenberghe: Yes. That's something that I constantly work on. It's, that's a point how I reframe things because really we are impacted by it only if we believe it. Mm.
[00:30:09] Mallory Lee: Yeah.
[00:30:09] Shannon Curran: Yeah,
[00:30:10] Mallory Lee: I totally believe it.
[00:30:10] Shannon Curran: It, that's a big one. I felt, I was gonna say Mal was like, yeah, I felt that hard. Yeah. We went through a, a shift back and forth because when I was pregnant, I was also working a lot more.
[00:30:22] Shannon Curran: Not a good timing for that, that was terrible. but I, the second time around, my kids are two under two, so I was pregnant for like two years and I, um, Mallory did the same thing so she can relate, but I, always did drop off in pickup when my son first started daycare because my business was pretty young.
[00:30:39] Shannon Curran: And so I had like one client, I was still trying to figure out like exactly what my offer was and I was purposely taking it kind of slow, but we didn't wanna lose his daycare spot, so we still sent him. But I would like, so I would hang out for a little bit when I first dropped him off, 'cause he was really little, he was like five months old.
[00:30:54] Shannon Curran: So they'd let me sit down and play with him. and now if I'm there, it's like. In, out, up, down. Like, it's like we didn't never know who's gonna pick him up. Like I, every day it's like, alright, can you get there in time? Can I get there in time? It's like a negotiation. So yeah, the daycare never knows who's coming, who's going.
[00:31:09] Shannon Curran: and sometimes it's nana, I'm like, Hey, my mom's coming today. I was like, none of us could make it. So Nanas nana, the bus nanas run driving is coming to get 'em. But they're used to it.
[00:31:20] Alina Vandenberghe: It's fascinating to me because, I don't know if you observe, but generally women are a lot harder on themselves when they miss this kind of stuff.
[00:31:26] Alina Vandenberghe: Whereas men, they, they, you don't see that kind of self-criticism as much. obviously I'm generalizing a bit because different women are on different levels Totally. In the same with men. But I've discovered recently that there is this something called the DMN, the default mode, uh, network, where it's a, a part of our brain that.
[00:31:44] Alina Vandenberghe: In some people a lot more developed and especially if you're a mom where you are a lot more self aware of your actions and you are a lot more self-reflective, where if that DM N is of smaller capacity, you go straight into action, which is a lot more effective 'cause you don't have like that self-judgment and that self criticism.
[00:32:01] Alina Vandenberghe: so obviously people that have like a, a low D and perform much better because they're in action mode and they don't spend wheel cycles on criticizing themselves and like beating themselves down. So I am now becoming a lot more aware of that And for sure my DMN is like exploding and it's been exploding for the past couple of years, especially because it's amplified in my case.
[00:32:19] Alina Vandenberghe: 'cause I see so many people and I'm constantly watching it as, okay, you're self aware. You're trying to find things to improve them to make yourself better. But you only have eight hours in the day like everybody else,
[00:32:31] Shannon Curran: you just DM md, your DMN. You just like are talking to it.
[00:32:37] Alina Vandenberghe: I know you
[00:32:37] Shannon Curran: did you make it worse?
[00:32:40] Alina Vandenberghe: I just write down. I write down. I talked to it. I know you down.
[00:32:46] Shannon Curran: It is hard. That's so interesting.
[00:32:47] Shannon Curran: It's,I would love to hear a little bit about your experience of, like you just said, when you were pregnant it was took like so much of your brain, right?
[00:32:55] Shannon Curran: Like when you were like working and running a company in terms of the mental load of parenting, like as your kids have gotten older. I actually find that every time I talk to. My, so my kids are really little still. I have a 2-year-old and an eight month old, and so they're not like in a million, you know, activities and school's not asking me to do a lot of things for them.
[00:33:14] Shannon Curran: Like, I know Mallory had like Valentine's she had to deliver and like all this stuff. Like, I don't really have that yet. Like what is, it like now, like as you run your business and also have to navigate the like, mental load of kind of managing your kids' lives in a way where you wanna be present and there's just a lot of variables, right?
[00:33:30] Shannon Curran: Like, how does that work for you?
[00:33:31] Alina Vandenberghe: I'm observing that with every stage of, uh, their growth because I've seen like the movie before, like the most important piece is for them to have enough emotional intelligence and self-awareness to make really good decisions and be there, like for instance, I don't even get involved in the Valentine's stuff.
[00:33:52] Alina Vandenberghe: I asked them, okay, do you need to do anything? And he says, well, they said that we can bring Valentine's cards if we want at school. And I asked, would that make you happy if you bring it to the, to the other kids? And they said, no. And I said, well, we don't do it. And we, we only do it if it would make you happy.
[00:34:05] Alina Vandenberghe: It's fascinating because then they understand the consequences they see at school that other kids gave cards and they didn't, and how, how that made them feel. Did they make them feel excluded included? And I use that as an opportunity for them to self-reflect over the decision that they make.
[00:34:19] Alina Vandenberghe: So for me, nothing has really changed because it's just me being present for them for whatever decisions that they make. I don't make decisions for them, uh, unless they're like in danger. Um, right.
[00:34:31] Mallory Lee: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:31] Alina Vandenberghe: And it's fascinating because the way I perceive my role, and this is different for everybody.
[00:34:37] Alina Vandenberghe: Everybody has a different parenting style, but the way I am doing my role is as being there for them as a coach to remind them how wonderful they are and how capable they are. And. If they make mistakes, being there with them, what they perceive as mistakes, being there for them to reflect on what it is that they've learned out part of the experience, and having that ability to do self-reflection and what the impact they had on others, what impact they have on themselves, what, what really matters for them.
[00:35:03] Alina Vandenberghe: so for instance, in the case of the Valentine's Day, my 7-year-old decided not to participate, but he received a beautiful note from his best friend. And this note is like super touching. Like I can't imagine that the 7-year-old wrote like that. He said his name is Hugo. Hugo, I love that. You're so funny and so compassionate and so smart.
[00:35:20] Alina Vandenberghe: I can't believe that you're my friend. That was from like a 7-year-old. So cute. My son was so happy and so excited about it, and I said, how do you, how did that make you feel? He said, so happy. And I said, does it make you want to do something for Alexander also? And he said, yes, I'm gonna bring him something.
[00:35:37] Alina Vandenberghe: So it was like such a beautiful moment. Like he understood what was on the receiving end and that made him want to giving as well. Because if I do it outta force, if I say, because the school ask, ask you. So, and he, they learn to do things outta force, out of whatever everybody else is saying, then they don't have a good.
[00:35:53] Alina Vandenberghe: Regulating system. They don't have good intuition, and I don't want to raise people that just conform to the rules because that's not how we thrive. We thrive before ourselves and that's what I'm there to serve for.
[00:36:07] Shannon Curran: Oh,
[00:36:07] Mallory Lee: I love that.
[00:36:08] Shannon Curran: That's beautiful. We learn so much from these conversations. I come out being like, man, like this is like.
[00:36:14] Shannon Curran: Like, make me, give me hope that I'm gonna survive. What, say ages seven and five or eight and five or whatever. I dunno.
[00:36:21] Alina Vandenberghe: I think I would drive myself crazy if I would think that I'm responsible for everything. I would drive myself insane. 'cause I like, uh, I just, I can't do it.
[00:36:29] Mallory Lee: Yeah. It is hard. you want them to learn and you want them to grow, and you're afraid of decisions that they might make that are not correct, but you have to restrain yourself and think, okay.
[00:36:41] Mallory Lee: If it's not a good decision, we'll figure it out together. They'll learn from this, this is how they become little people. That can just be people in this world on their own. So it is a wild thing to see, as we get.
[00:36:57] Mallory Lee: Closer to the end of our time here, I, I wanted to see if you could tell us a little bit more about how you guys at Chili Piper, um, approach maternity leave and parental time off.
[00:37:09] Mallory Lee: And have you seen yourself put policies in place that, reflect who you are as a parent or is that a little harder to, to make work?
[00:37:20] Alina Vandenberghe: I would say that these policies we had, even before I became myself a mom, so it has not been as a reflection of my own experience in that we've never supervised anyone for their working hours.
[00:37:31] Alina Vandenberghe: We've never supervised anything on their computers. we haven't demanded working hours.
[00:37:36] Alina Vandenberghe: we've not demanded anything out of our employees except for results and results that are in base with what the industry needs. So not like. We invented results. So it's in like common acceptance of what we are expecting from that role.
[00:37:50] Alina Vandenberghe: so everybody kind of makes it work with whatever they got and they figure it out whether they want to leave, they want, they want to leave, they want to stay with their kids while they're playing, or, or not. The, I think that the hardest, in, in our team have the sales team, which have to be present on the call, and it's just harder if they get distracted in the call.
[00:38:06] Alina Vandenberghe: Yet, I've seen one of our top performers right now, performer, he has kids at home and he managed to make it work and he hits his quota, and they're littles. he managed to buy two new houses in addition to his own house from all the, all his, quota. So he managed to make it work. So I think it's up to our employees to figure it out.
[00:38:25] Alina Vandenberghe: Obviously we have, uh, a maternity leave and all of that, um, that that's generous compared to the industry. Yet outside of that, it's up to them to kind of figure out how they want to live their lives and how they want to show up. Yeah,
[00:38:40] Mallory Lee: that's great.
[00:38:42] Shannon Curran: So the only segment we've consistently done on this show is that we do it, we call it our save of the week. So whether it was like a process, a product, a person, that allowed you to be kind of a, a mom and working this week, like what is something that kind of saved you?
[00:39:00] Shannon Curran: I can start, most of mine are strategies for toddlers because that's like the, the where I am right now. and so this is what I've, I implemented a few months ago, but I, I noticed it worked very well this morning, so it reminded me that we did this. So, I remember my oldest is, uh, his name's Sebastian.
[00:39:17] Shannon Curran: So when we first got into this, like the part of Toddlerhood where they have OB Object, object permanence, they like don't really realize that if they let something go, it's gonna come back.
[00:39:27] Shannon Curran: so, uh, he really struggled with leaving things right? Like that's a very hard thing to do. Like whether it's leaving the house, leaving his blankies, leaving his whatever. Like food. So we started doing this thing where anytime he moves from one place to another, he says goodbye.
[00:39:41] Shannon Curran: Like, bye-bye. Like, see you, see you later. Right? Like to us or his blankie or his snack or whatever, right? And so, it's made getting outta the house a lot easier. It's made going into daycare significantly easier, right? So this morning he requested that. So he has like six blanks. He wants to carry around all the time, which is just like super impractical.
[00:40:00] Shannon Curran: Like it's not a practical. So I, I asked him to say goodbye to four of them in the house, and then we say goodbye to the other two in the car, which is okay. Duh. And so I dropped two off at daycare this morning and I said, say goodbye to your sister. So Willa was in the car. And, he goes, bye-bye, Willa.
[00:40:16] Shannon Curran: Bye-bye Blankies. Bye-bye crackers. Bye-bye. Car seat. He like just started saying goodbye to like every object. And then he went into school and he goes, bye-bye, mommy. And like, he got it. You know? It was this moment of like. Okay. This like little silly thing that we used to do the same thing at the grocery store.
[00:40:32] Shannon Curran: He wants to bring a, a balloon home every time. And I'm like, no, they live here so we have to say bye-bye to them so that we could see them when we come back. Right. and so it was just this little like moment of like, okay, like if he, like he understands what he says, bye to things like that, that he's gonna see them again.
[00:40:47] Shannon Curran: 'cause he always sees me again. Right? Like that's like he knows that I'm coming back. The blankies are coming back. The baby's coming back. Right. So, that was my save of the week. That ex like means we actually got into daycare without full meltdowns all five days, which was like a huge win.
[00:41:03] Alina Vandenberghe: I'm gonna give that tip to my sister 'cause she has the same age and she needs to drop him off.
[00:41:06] Alina Vandenberghe: It's gonna be really hard. That's a good tip.
[00:41:09] Shannon Curran: Yeah. Yeah. Object Permanence is challenging for two year olds, but object,
[00:41:12] Alina Vandenberghe: permanence. Yeah,
[00:41:13] Mallory Lee: yeah,
[00:41:13] Shannon Curran: yeah.
[00:41:13] Mallory Lee: Shannon has all the best. Systems, all the tips. I love it.
[00:41:17] Shannon Curran: I try. I'm in it right now, so you have to,
[00:41:24] Mallory Lee: oh, what saved me this week? I think what saved me this week is, uh, maybe my friend Molly. so I'm here in Chicago and we're just gonna have kind of a girls' weekend and hang out, and I literally can't remember the last time that I did something like this on my own. my husband and I will go away a lot, but not as.
[00:41:45] Mallory Lee: Just like a girlfriend trip. So I'm optimistic that it's going to be a restoring weekend, and I'm really grateful that she wanted to, to do this. So Molly saved me preemptively. I'm calling it now.
[00:41:59] Shannon Curran: I love it. All right, Elena, what's yours?
[00:42:04] Alina Vandenberghe: Something, uh, we're working towards, I've not yet found the light at the end of the tunnel, but it's promising.
[00:42:10] Alina Vandenberghe: we are observing that. Our little ones because I teach them to be so independent thinkers, do not like to be forced into any activities. So they don't like to be forced into taking a bath. They don't like to be forced into going to at dinner at the set time or to set up the dinner or things like that.
[00:42:28] Alina Vandenberghe: and I don't want to use threats either, and I don't want to use bribes either. And because I don't want to use any of these normal tools. what we're working towards is creating rules that everybody agrees on ahead of time. So, what's something that we can agree on? What time should we all be ready for dinner?
[00:42:45] Alina Vandenberghe: What, what does daddy want? What does you, what do you want? So like, actively involving them in the decision making. They love that we write it down on paper. We write contracts. Oh, they think it's the best thing ever that they're being, uh, treated like adults and they tell me, mommy, you did not involve me in that decision.
[00:43:03] Alina Vandenberghe: I felt really disappointed.
[00:43:05] Mallory Lee: Oh, that's awesome. I'm gonna
[00:43:08] Shannon Curran: trade it some monsters, but that's amazing. I love this. I love this.
[00:43:12] Alina Vandenberghe: Yeah. I don't, I I'm not raising obedient kids, that's for sure. I'm raising,full fledged, uh, kids, adults, and the beauty of them wanting to be involved in decision making and wanting to be part of the, this is that at school, the teachers assess them as super high EQ and super high on their responsibilities because whenever they notice that.
[00:43:31] Alina Vandenberghe: Certain kids do not respect the rules in the class. For instance, they have behavioral problems. They go and they talk to them, Hey, maybe it's because you're not being involved in those rules. Maybe you don't agree with these rules. Maybe you want to be part of the rules. You know, so the, the teachers are like really amazed of their, of their, uh, collaboration skills and consensus skills, which is like such a hard one to build.
[00:43:51] Alina Vandenberghe: But I'm trying to do it at home. It's very difficult because we all have different expectations and intentions and then so forth. But getting alignment on that, it's something that we're, we're working on right now.
[00:44:02] Shannon Curran: I love
[00:44:03] Mallory Lee: it. Good one. Yeah.
[00:44:05] Shannon Curran: It's so good.
[00:44:06] Mallory Lee: Yeah. Well, Alina, we've taken enough of your time. Uh, this was wonderful.
[00:44:11] Mallory Lee: On your birthday and on your birthday, no less. Uh, we hope you have the best birthday and hope we can talk again sometime soon.
[00:44:20] Alina Vandenberghe: Thank you for inviting me. This was the best gift for me. I derive a lot of pleasure from being able to be there for others like can mom. So for me, being able to be doing this podcast for you, I can't with you.
[00:44:30] Alina Vandenberghe: I can't imagine a better gift. So thank you for inviting me.
[00:44:33] Shannon Curran: Oh, it was so wonderful. Thank
[00:44:35] Alina Vandenberghe: you, my sister. Bye.
[00:44:37] Shannon Curran: Yeah, go talk to your sister.
[00:44:38] Thanks for listening to Full Stack Moms,
[00:44:40] We'll be back with more episodes that help you see you're not crazy and you're not alone. If we might be your people, please make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:44:51] Shannon Curran: Listen to two women who have never done IVF talk about.
[00:44:55] Shannon Curran: Talk about IVF. Yeah. My friends done IVFI know exactly. It looks scary, so I don't really know. Um, I was so queasy about needles before I had kids, and now I'm like, whatever. Go for it. Like I, yeah, it's so crazy difference. Yeah.