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For over 25 years Proverbs 31 Ministries' mission has been to intersect God's Word in the real, hard places we all struggle with. That's why we started this podcast. Every episode will feature a variety of teachings from president Lysa TerKeurst, staff members or friends of the ministry who can teach you something valuable from their vantage point. We hope that regardless of your age, background or stage of life, it's something you look forward to listening to each month!
Kaley Olson: Hi, friends. Thanks for tuning in to the Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Kaley Olson, and I'm here today with my co host, Meredith Brock.
Meredith Brock: Well, hey, Kaley, and hey, listeners. Guys, we have got an incredible episode for you today.
We just heard from our friend Abby McDonald, and she taught on something that I am real time struggling with, and that is surrendering certainty. How we all want this assurance that things are gonna turn out a certain way, and that sometimes is just a real life struggle because sometimes God's quiet. And he doesn't always give clarity the way we want it to. And so I'm telling you, you guys are gonna love this episode.
Kaley Olson: It's such a good episode. Earlier, can I be honest? Where my mind went whenever you said something I'm struggling with today. Before we started recording this episode, we were talking about the struggles of gray hair. And do we color or do we not? That's also very relatable.
Meredith Brock: That's a real thing.
Kaley Olson: And what we're struggling with.
Meredith Brock: Yeah. That's right.
Kaley Olson: And so if you're listening right now, know, we get it. We see you. We are with you as you wonder what God wants you to do
Meredith Brock: And
Kaley Olson: this decision
Meredith Brock: and whether or not you're gonna color your gray hair or not.
Kaley Olson: You're gonna embrace the gray? Crown of glory.
Kaley Olson: I don't know. I'm kinda leaning towards the latter, but we'll see. Okay. Before we let you listen to today's episode, we wanted to let you know that Abby, who you're hearing from today, is one of the writers for our free Encouragement for Today daily devotions. Y'all know at Proverbs 31, we love providing you with free content, and these devotions are something you can get straight to your inbox for free every single weekday.
In a day and age of email inboxes that are flooded with a lot of, let's be honest, junk, it's refreshing to open a devotion at some point in my day that allows me to pause and recenter my heart and mind. You can subscribe for free using the link in our show notes below.
Meredith Brock: Alright, friends. Let's dive into today's episode. Well, we are excited to welcome our friend, Abby McDonald, to the show today. Hi, Abby.
Abby McDonald: Hey. Good to see you.
Kaley Olson: We are so excited to have you on today. Abby, for those of you who don't know, Abby is a wife and a mom to three kids, and one of her biggest passions is writing.
She is no stranger to Proverbs 31 Ministries. She's a writer for our Encouragement for Today devotions, a published author who just released her second book titled Surrendering Certainty, Hearing God Today by Letting Go of Tomorrow. She's here today to share with us about what God has taught her about her desire for assurance. And honestly, I feel like I'm gonna get slapped around a little bit today, Meredith. I don't know if you feel the same way.
Abby's just gonna go for it, and it's gonna be great. But I know that I need it because because this is gonna help me. And honestly, I feel like there are people listening right now who are saying, God, I need help. And I feel like Abby's gonna help them learn how to process that.
So Abby, why don't you take it away?
Abby McDonald: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for the warm welcome.
As far back as I can remember, I can look back on my life and see this deep desire to know, this longing for God to give me a black and white sign telling me which way to go. And if it had bells and whistles with it, all the better. When my husband and I first got married, we had a saying for these moments when god's leading was unmistakable, and we called them two by fours to the head. Now I realize that description doesn't sound very pleasant, but if you've had one of these moments, then you know you're living life, praying for God's leading in a specific area, then you probably even missed a few of his nudges. Then a series of conversations or events makes his leading so unmistakable, you'd have to be completely oblivious to miss it.
Within a few months of our marriage, God gave us a couple of these moments. We were in the middle of some big decisions regarding my husband's job, and we needed guidance. There were a lot of details surrounding the situation, but the long and short of it was that his work circumstances weren't good. There was nothing available in the area. And he looked for months, and nothing came.
Not in South Carolina where we lived, not in the Tristate area. And when he finally got a phone call, the job was in Utah. And that was over 2,000 miles away from the little town, Irmo, where I'd lived my whole life. I've never been to Utah, and I knew nothing about the area. So the week after my husband got this call, he was in Utah headed to an interview, and I was at work freaking out.
My mind was reeling with a thousand questions. And one of my big questions was, what about my own job? How would I find one? And if I couldn't, would we be able to survive on one income? I shared my concerns with my boss, and I'll never forget his kindness.
And within an hour, I had an interview lined up for the exact position that I had and at a location in Salt Lake. So while I still had a lot of questions, God's leading was unmistakable. I knew he was making a way for this big move even when we face struggles later on. Struggles like a miscommunication regarding our temporary housing situation and like our house sitting on the market in South Carolina for months. We kept looking back at that initial clarity that God gave us, and we knew he was in that decision.
Now my husband and I have been married for eighteen years. And while we still occasionally have those two by four moments, they're fewer and farther between. God's guidance looks like gentle nudges. It looks like prayer walks with my dog and fumbling through the dark when I'm not sure which way he's leading me. While I still long for those big moments, I've realized that God is not withholding from me when he doesn't give me one.
He's asking me to trust. He's asking me to trust him more than a sign or certainty about what will happen tomorrow. God drew me to this topic of hearing his voice several years ago because it's a conversation that I have weekly, sometimes daily. I talk to women who feel like God is prompting them to do something, but they hesitate. Like many of us, they ask, is this God's voice or my own?
I understand the struggle because I live it. In my early church life, I don't remember talking about God's voice or how to discern whether a nudge is from him. I remember hearing Old Testament stories that most of us grew who grew up in the church are familiar with. God speaking to Moses and the burning bush or speaking to the other prophets. And on some level, I wondered, is this how God will speak to me today?
I don't remember hearing about the Holy Spirit or how he guides us in our daily lives. And while I believe God can speak to us, however he chooses, in my experience, he usually speaks to our hearts. It can be through a desire or it can be through this burning we just feel in our soul. We know that we have to act. In my early life, I didn't share my desires with God because, one, I didn't think he cared, and two, it didn't feel safe.
And this belief was rooted in experiences I'd had both inside and outside of the church over the years. But after I had kids, there was this distinct shift in how I viewed God. Over time, I saw that my kids didn't hold back when they came to me with their desires. When my daughter was four, she told me she wanted to be a frog. She told me this without shame as I made dinner one night.
She felt safe with me, and my sons did too. As I looked at my kids, I realized God desired that same openness with me. He wants me to come to him with my hopes, desires, and dreams, my hang ups, and my fears, all of it. And as I do, he shapes those desires. He molds me and guides me into the woman he wants me to be, but he can't speak to a heart that's closed off from him.
Jesus tells us in John 10 that his sheep hear his voice, and they know him. This isn't a privilege reserved for a select few. It's for everyone who calls him lord. He goes on to say in verse nine, I am the gate. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will come in and go out and find pasture.
As I study this passage, I noticed a few things. First, these sheep aren't stationary. The verse tells us they're coming and going, so they're not simply standing there waiting for someone to tell them to eat or to graze in this place God led them to. Second, they're enjoying the provision and the abundance God has given them. They aren't waiting for God to open another door because they've already entered through the ultimate door, Jesus himself.
How many doors do we wait for God to open when he's already opened the one that matters the most? The third thing I noticed is the constant love of the shepherd. Even when the wolf comes in and scatters the sheep, he stays. He's not a shepherd who leaves the pasture and expects us to have all the answers. He is the shepherd who stays, who guides us, and intercedes for us.
He never stops. The sheep are safe with him because as he knows later in the passage, no one will snatch them out of my hand. As I read this passage, I realized I need to be more like these sheep. More often than I admit, I question God's voice rather than act on it. I doubt my ability to hear him or I ask him to give me another sign, then I question the sign he gives me.
A few years ago, I realized that the same question that the serpent asked Eve still echoes today, still misleads us. Did God really say? If I'm honest, I think if God will just tell me what's on the other side of my step of faith, things will be easier. I'll have more confidence, and I'll do it. But that's not really what faith is, is it?
Hebrews 11 tells us that faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. We believe that more information will give us more freedom and peace, but most of the time it does the opposite. The information age we live in is a good example of this. We've never had access to more information, and yet we're more prone to anxiety and depression than ever before. A finite mind and body cannot carry the weight of an infinite God.
God is outside of time, but we aren't. And when we run ahead of God and we try to acquire more knowledge, we take on a yoke we were never intended to carry. We forfeit the peace God gives us today for the worries of the future. Instead of offering us more information, Jesus offers us a different kind of yoke. He invites us to come to him and to lay down all of our what ifs.
In Matthew 11, he says, come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. You may know that a yoke is a device joining together two animals, and the yoke is a cross piece that encloses the head of the animal. By using it, the animals can carry the loads more effectively.
But if the yoke didn't fit the animal or it's too large or small, it's useless. Jesus uses this imagery because he knew it would be familiar to his disciples. He creates a picture of an animal trying to carry a load that is ill fitted for him. It's cumbersome and awkward. This is what we do when we try to run outside the knowledge God gives us for today and into the future.
We take up a yoke that is ill suited for us. We go back to the garden trying to obtain more knowledge than we can carry. What God revealed to me as I studied this passage was this, we often trust in answers more than we trust in God's character. But friends, God is trustworthy. When we fall for the deceiver and we try to be like God as the serpent promised Eve, we're falling for the same lie all over again.
God wants to give us abundance and freedom. He wants to give us life to the full, as he says in verse 10. God longs to speak to us, and he does. But if you're anything like me, you may approach your spiritual life like a checklist. Okay.
I pray for this person. Check. I've read the Bible. Check. I went to church this week.
While all these things are good, the holy spirit isn't confined to our checklist. He wants to invade every part of our lives, even the parts we wanna keep close off from him. Several years ago, I was in the middle of an extremely dry season spiritually, and God wrecked my checklist. My pastor shared how God spoke to him when he was on a run, and he said, your prayers are boring. And I realized in that moment, my prayers were pretty boring too.
Now does God still hear these prayers? Absolutely. But God is anything but boring. He showed me that prayer is a conversation, not a monologue. I began thinking about everyday conversations I had with loved ones and how I would never simply dump my problems on them and then walk away.
I want to hear from them and engage with them. God speaks to each of us differently, but one of the ways he speaks to me is through nature. He impresses things on my heart through the beauty he creates, but I have to take the time to notice it. When I do, he opens my mind to more of the ways he's speaking to me every day. As I respond to his voice and I'm obedient, it activates my faith.
I'm able to hear him more because my faith is propelled by action. One thing that's beautiful about these steps of faith is that they create a track record. We can look back and we can see moments when we moved even in the unknown, and God was faithful. In the Old Testament, people made altars to remember these moments. This should tell us something.
We're forgetful people. Right? So let's record them too and look back on them when we need assurance of God's presence. The second thing these steps of faith do is they create momentum. Momentum is gained by movement, and the same is true with our faith.
If we look at the names for the Holy Spirit in scripture, none of them are stagnant. He's described as wind, fire, water. His presence thrives as we move with him. And the third thing these steps of faith do is they grow our confidence. We don't have the opportunity to see God's faithfulness until we act.
And as we respond to his nudges, we realize we do hear him. He speaks to us, and he will continue to do so. God does give us a guarantee, and it's far better than anything this world offers. In Ephesians one, Paul tells us that all who declared Jesus as lord have been sealed by the Holy Spirit. And not only that, but the holy spirit is God's down payment guaranteeing our future inheritance.
God you or excuse me. Paul uses this imagery to show us that God doesn't intend to revoke his promise. The certainty we have is in his unchanging love. Friends, this seal isn't based on our work, but on Christ's finished work. Knowing this and believing this is everything.
Why? Because when we remember this promise, we can walk in freedom. We can know that even in our missteps, his faithfulness never stops.
Meredith Brock: Abby, thank you, so much. I I'm sitting here absorbing all of this knowing this is such a timely word.
Even for me right now and some things that I'm processing in real time. And you said a couple things. You actually said a lot of things that I wrote down and that caught my attention.
But there was a couple that really stood out to me that I would love for you to expound on a little bit more, and I'm gonna tie a few of these together. But you said that we often trust in answers more than we trust in God's character.
I was like, you know, stepping on my…
Kaley Olson: Slapping slapping us around.
Meredith Brock: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In a good way.
Kaley Olson: In a really good way.
Meredith Brock: And, Abby, as I was reflecting on that, it's true. I've certainly gone through seasons where I just feel like God's holding out on me. You know, like he's he's withholding, his voice.
He's withholding, you know, answers. He's withholding direction. It could be a lot of different things. And in those seasons, I find myself or have found myself, to be honest, and this is very vulnerable, but getting really angry at God.
Because I feel like I'm begging you, like, please speak. I want my heart's desire is to do the right thing to do what you want me to do or or not do or whatever. And what would you how do we move through those moments?
You know, without because you also said, and I I wrote this down, is he can't speak to a heart that's closed off to him. And so in those moments of just feeling angry that God is, you know, and maybe not all of you go to anger. I do. That's kind of where, if I'm being totally honest, maybe some people go more towards just being hurt, but I get angry
Kaley Olson: That's real.
Meredith Brock: Of just like, God, why aren't you talking?
Like, why aren't you showing me when I so desperately want to do the right thing? And then I can feel myself shutting my heart off. And so talk us through this a little bit. Like, how what what do we do in these scenarios?
Abby McDonald: Yeah. That's really good. And I I think that so many of us can relate to that. I know I certainly can. You know, we've all gone through those seasons where we just feel like God is not communicating with us, you know, or he's not giving us what we feel like we need, you know.
And I think one of the key things is not to stop communicating with God, you know? And and even if you're going through something where and I've talked to friends where they did feel like they didn't even have it in them to pray. You know? Have someone pray for you. You know?
Share with someone what you're going through and have them pray over you. But keep the door to communication open and just be honest with God about what you're feeling. That's one of the reasons why I love going through the Psalms when I'm going through a season like that is because David is the perfect example, you know, but he didn't he didn't hold anything back. You know, if he was angry, if he was just depressed, he would tell God and he would just let it all out. And and a lot of those Psalms, you can see a shift in his attitude, you know, or his frame of mind by the end of it, where he just recognizes that even in the midst of being pursued by, you know, an angry king who wants to kill him and, you know, all of these other things that David went through, God was still there, you know, and and God was faithful.
And so I think just being honest with him and telling him, you know, God, I'm angry, you know, and or God, I'm just really disappointed. I'm I'm really not feeling your presence right now. It can be so powerful and effective and just opening our perspective up to the ways that he is moving in the midst of that, even if it's not in the ways that we want.
Kaley Olson: Meredith, I think it's so interesting that you brought up ways that our hearts are closed to the Lord. Because when I heard Abby say that, I think it's natural that one would think, oh, closed hearts means anger. That's not true though. You know? And I, not not always.
Not true for everyone, because I don't think that my tendency is not necessarily to get angry at God. There have been times for sure, you know, that he's. My anger usually comes from what He allows, and that's hard. But it got me thinking about, what I'm reading right now, and I just started over in Genesis, earlier this year, and, it's so interesting. Over and over in the book of Genesis, there is this difference between, assurance and assumption.
So Abby, you were talking about faith as assurance, but in Genesis, there's story after story of people making decisions based out of what they assume, that the outcome is gonna be, and God's really slapping me around, you know, in that right now. I've said that so many times that it's really true. But like Abraham assumed a lot.
Jacob assumed. And right now, I just recently, I think yesterday, read about Jacob and Esau, whenever Jacob is older and Esau is older, and they have this sweet moment where they embrace each other as brothers. But before that, Jacob, he's a deceiver, and Jacob was a very fearful man. And it's very interesting to read about it in this light, and God is just, he's doing a lot right now. But, the study Bible that I had talks about this passage, and I'm not gonna say it specifically because I'm gonna get it wrong, but just go read your Bibles, guys.
It's Genesis 30 something. But Jacob sends his family in separate camps. He sends droves of, like, hundreds of animals to Esau because he was fearful, and he thought, if I send this to my brother, it'll make him happy. And then later, Esau addresses Jacob as my brother, which if you look in the footnotes of your Bible, my brother, he was trying to disseminate that fear and show him, it's cool dude, like we're fine. I don't have this resentment against against you.
And last night, I looked at my footnotes, about that verse in the Bible, and it said, Jacob's fears about how Esau would react were proved untrue. And I thought, how many times do I make a decision on my own without including God in it because I assume the outcome, and I'm the one that's taking into account all of the options. Meredith is my personality type. I'm looking at all these lists, and I'm like, which one is the least risky option? But that's that's not the way that God wants us to, work with him.
That's not faith. That is an assumption mindset that I need to figure it out. I I need to figure it out. But where you've challenged me today, Abby, and I think where we can land the plane is, guys, assurance is much better than assumption, but assurance is that track record, Abby, like you said. And as you were kind of wrapping up your teaching, I was thinking, okay.
But for the people who were like, alright, Abby, so what does this mean? You know, there's a lot going on. Give me the two by four. Like, hit me over the head with it. Like, we don't sell two by fours on our website.
They don't come with Bibles or anything like that. Maybe we should.
Meredith Brock: Maybe we should.
Kaley Olson: Yeah. But it gave me such perspective what when you said, you have gotta keep taking steps and keep a record of what God is doing and how he is directing you, and I that's faith in action.
Yeah, it is. That's assurance that I might make this decision, and it might be the wrong thing, but God is like, he cannot not be God in this, and he's still going to guide me and direct me, and make he he will use my silly assumptions that I make I might make the wrong decision, but he will still use that.
Meredith Brock: You know, I had a mentor when I was in college say to me, and I I have said this so many times. Kaley, I'm sure you've heard me say it before.
Kaley Olson: I know what you're gonna say.
Meredith Brock: But it really helped me because I was so afraid of missing God's will for my life. At that time, you're in college, you're totally freaked out. Yeah. And she said, Meredith, God is a much better leader than you are a follower.
Yeah. And I was like, it helped me put so much to peace in my heart to go, okay, maybe I do act on assumptions sometime. But guess what? Our God's way bigger than me acting on my assumptions.
He knows my heart. He knows my desire is to do the right thing. But he values my character my soul more than he than he values my outcomes.
Yeah. You know? And that's the piece that I think is hardest that I've had to wrestle with and realize, yeah, sometimes God is quiet and he's not giving me the answer because he knows something needs to be developed in me more than an outcome needs to be achieved. And that, I I my flesh doesn't like that.
Kaley Olson: No. No. No. Not at all. Yeah.
But I think that's why, Abby, I was so looking forward to you coming on to the show today because even the title of your book, Surrendering Certainty, I'm like, like, we need that because we are we're so busy, like, speaking to your checklist faith mentality. We're so busy that we wanna just check it off and be like, okay, I surrender, but that is not what faith in action really looks like. So, Abby, thank you. I'm going to come back to this. This was really helpful, and you've given me a lot to think on as the day goes on.
And I know the same is true for our listeners, but we do have to wrap up. All things that are good must come to an end. And so we do have just a few announcements. First, guys, go purchase Abby's book. It's called Surrendering Certainty, Hearing God Today by Letting Go of Tomorrow.
We've linked it for you in the show notes. And next, if you're new around here, I'd like to remind you that we, what we are all about here at Proverbs 31, we want you to know that wherever you are in life, you are a woman who is known and seen by God, and we are on a mission to get you from just reading about who God is to fully experiencing who He is. One of the ways we do that is through our free Encouragement for Today devotions. These devotions are written by people like Abby, the very relatable kind of people who are moms, working women, in the trenches, you get it, and they are sent straight to your inbox every weekday. We've heard countless stories of women who read our devotions and say this was meant for me today, and we are so thankful for how God is using this free resource to help women every single day.
You can sign up to start receiving these devotions for free by using the link in our show notes.
Meredith Brock: Alright, friends, that is it for today at Proverbs 31 Ministries. We believe when you know the truth and live the truth, it really does change everything.