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Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the bible. Let's get into the episode.
Donna Martin:Hey. Welcome back to the debrief podcast. I'm Donna Martin, and I'm here with pastor Matthew Stephen Brown. How are you?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I am. I am excited. A little nervous about these questions, but
Donna Martin:I'm excited. These These are interesting, and I'm excited to hear your take on these. And these are topics that sometimes Christians don't talk about. These are things that Yes. Maybe traditionally there have been some discussion, but we don't really know.
Donna Martin:I know. It's growing
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:growing up. Church for twenty years. I never heard this stuff.
Donna Martin:So Exactly. Alright. So we're gonna jump right in. This is Chris from Redlands, California, and he says, what is your understanding of the Nephilim? My understanding was that there are fallen angels that had sex with humans, which produced a race of giants.
Donna Martin:For example, Goliath and the descendants of Rapha. It's confusing when it says in Genesis six four, when sons of God went to the daughters of man and had children with them. They were heroes of old, men of renown. Heroes? Question mark?
Donna Martin:In my example above, they are the enemies of David.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right. And so, yeah, so Chris, welcome to just endless debate, speculation. And so there are two main main thoughts, and these aren't the only ideas on the Nephilim, but there's two main thoughts. So one thought is the more practical thought, and we'll start with that first. So Adam and Eve have two sons.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So they have Cain and Abel, and Cain kills Abel, and then Cain is banished. Yeah. And so then they have Seth, the righteous the righteous line of God. And so some think that this is Seth's line having sex with Cain's line. So that the sons of God had sex with the sons of Oh, wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So that's one thought. There are some days where I think, yeah, that's probably true. And then there's this other thought, which is the more mystical approach, which is your thought, Chris, which is that these are somehow fallen angels, and an angel may not be the right word, but fallen ones, you know, like we talked about in in the last episode, the Seraphim, these these snakes, these these angelic beings, I'd rather use that than angels, because angel is messenger of God. Mhmm. And so these are these are fallen beings, creatures from heaven who have rebelled against God like the snake in the Garden of Eden.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And this is the story of of them now acting out on their rebellion. Mhmm. And so the sons of God, these these mystical creatures of heaven, whatever they are, having sex with women on earth. And so it's really important here that we understand that that sex is something that's very, very powerful and that God cares deeply about. That sex is given to men and women for a procreative purpose and and for becoming one with each other, but this sin, if if Chris' interpretation is correct, is is a becoming one with a god like creature.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. So it's an unhealthy image that's against the creative story. Yeah. So just as the snake is an uninvited third party in Genesis three, these sons of God are an uninvited group of creatures, beings, We don't know exactly what they are. I just don't like the term angel because that means messenger, and so they're not carrying out a message from God, but they're carrying out their own purpose, and they lust after.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They see that women are beautiful, and which women are beautiful. You're beautiful. Thank And so they have sex with them, and the that product leads to an abomination, something that is unhealthy and unholy. And so and and giant. And giant.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. So very, very large. And so we see this throughout scripture, this this, you know, these giants. You know, the issue is here, Chris, you know, so you say heroes, and so what I think, again, oftentimes, you know, the Hebrew will use a word that's positive, but we are to interpret it in a negative light. So oftentimes in our English translations of Genesis three, it will say the serpent was crafty.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. Well, what it means is wise. Mhmm. Shrewd. Shrewd can be positive or negative.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. Like, I I can be a shrewd businessman and do well, or I can be a shrewd businessman and rip you off. Right. And so oftentimes, it will present an adjective to us that's that's neutral, and we are to imply the meaning. And so heroes, what I would say is not necessarily, you know, men of renown, these are super important people, and they came about from, you know, an unhealthy union Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And produced these giants that are huge problems. And so this helps us then understand why God had to judge the earth, because we have these abominations running around, these giants, and they're just awful. And it says in the Bible that God saw that the intentions of man's heart was completely evil. Yeah. Every thought was evil.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. With the exception of Noah. Mhmm. Noah was a righteous man. And so God chooses Noah, saves Noah, and his sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and their wives.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So then the question becomes, you know, if they're giants and God drown them all Right.
Donna Martin:How do
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:they come after we have giants again? Well, there's one of two thoughts. One thought is that Ham's wife Mhmm. Is a descendant of this unhealthy Yeah. Gene And so even though God is judging the world and saving Noah and his family, they unsuspectingly and again, so how does sin come into the world in Genesis three?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Through a woman. What may have happened in Genesis chapter six? Through Ham's wife, we don't know this, I'm just speculating, they could have come on, and then he rebels against God, you know, by choosing to see Noah naked, and there's more going on there. Yeah. It's not just he took a peek.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right. Something happening there, and in Jewish culture, Canaanites are kind of the father of homosexuality. Like, so in Canaan, homosexuality is practiced, it's a part of their worship, and whenever Jews, the Jewish people got mixed up in that, you know, they bring the Ashra pole, the penis, into the temple, and they have gay sex in the temple of God. Ezekiel, God grabs Ezekiel by the hair and says, they think I can't see. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He says, I see this, and I'm going to judge them. So that that could be that. Another thing is what happened in Genesis six just happens again. Yeah. So, you know, the the angels are destroyed, but they they do it again, and they produce this again.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so again, there's this war, Chris, that in the last episode we talked about that we don't fully understand. There's this spiritual world that's a fog, its its powers, principalities, and what do we say?
Donna Martin:Authorities.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Authorities of the unseen realm. There's a realm that we can't see and we don't understand, and there's a war that's going on that started in Genesis three with a heavenly creature. It it gets worse in Genesis chapter six with the sons of God having sex with the sons of of women. And then that offspring, again, and a lot of people miss this, happens with the Tower Of Babel with Nimrod. He's a man of renown.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He's he's a descendant of this unhealthy alliance. And so we see this, and and and Jesus is going to attack all three of those things. Jesus is gonna take down the snake. Jesus is gonna deal with the demons, and so a lot of people believe that the demons are the eternal spirits that have been cast down from heaven that did this with women, and so their bodies drowned in the flood, but they're eternal beings. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so they're still here, and that's manifested to us in Legion when Jesus goes, who are you? Yeah. We're the army that's against Mhmm. That's what it means. We are all that stands against you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then they beg, please don't kill us. Yeah. Send us into the pigs. Mhmm. And that's important.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Send us into that which is unclean.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because that's where they're most at home, and Jesus sends them out. And then of course, and then for everybody listening, last episode, why is witchcraft so deadly? Why is the occult so deadly? Because what happens to the pigs? Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Kill them. The same thing that will happen to you. The son of God died for you. If you follow the sons of God
Donna Martin:Sure.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:This unhealthy alliance from Genesis six, they will kill you. And it's completely different. So the unique son of God dies for you. These sons of God, these fallen ones, they'll kill you. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's completely different. And and and it goes back to the lie. You won't die. Right. You will understand and know what God knows.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And so but but they do die. So so then, you know, Jesus is attacking these things and dealing with these things, but it's very, very difficult, and and a lot of people disagree and argue about this, but to fall, the fallen ones, that's where it comes from. We don't know exactly, we just know that what happens in in in Genesis chapter six is pretty ugly. It's an ancient text.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We're trying to put the pieces back together, but God is fighting a holy war against demons that can inhabit people. So in Numbers, when they try to go to the Promised Land, remember the 10 spies say we can't take it. Why?
Donna Martin:Yeah. Because we look like grasshoppers.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We look grasshoppers. Huge. Because they're giants. Yeah. So it's the descendants of all that's unholy.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So remember there's three things? Joshua is now going to kill the descendants Yeah. Of this rebellion. So however they are, his war against is against these giants. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And he begins to kill them in the promised land. Then we have King David. Yeah. God's chosen one. Who does he have to fight?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Goliath. Goliath, the giant, and his brother.
Donna Martin:And his brother.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. Then Christ dies on the cross at Golgotha, which is most likely the place where Goliath's head is buried. It's the place of the skull.
Donna Martin:Mhmm. And
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:a lot of Christians miss that. What skull? Goliath's skull. Now that's a stretch there. I could be wrong, but Golgotha, Goliath, And very, very so and and we know that David takes the head to Jerusalem and buries it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. And so there's this, you know, and then we go back to Genesis three. Right? He will strike your heel, and he, Jesus, in Genesis three, will crush His head. Your head.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. Where is Christ crucified? At the head of the giant. Mhmm. He's actually crushing Satan's head there.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. And the last giant is defeated. And so it's this war, and I actually wanna do a deep dive into this, Chris
Donna Martin:That's great.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because there's a whole lot more, you know, and and some people are freaking out. My daughter texted me this week, she said, Dad, what's the book of Enoch? I've never heard of this. I'm like, okay. So we can dive into this, but here's the thing is, we can't know fully, but we can know partially, and we have to be very, very careful.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The spiritual world is real. Yeah. Demons are real. They probably come from this. The book of Enoch indicates that that's where they come from, that they're the remaining spirits here on earth that have been banished.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know? But it gets confusing. There's some there's some demons that are imprisoned, there are some that are not, and so it gets very, very confusing. And you can Google that, and people are gonna spell it all out, and they got it all figured out. Maybe, but maybe not.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So so, you know, Genesis chapter six, two interpretations. One is the line of of Seth and the line of Cain, which is the easiest interpretation, but I think very clearly there's more going on here. And, you know, Genesis three, six, and 11 just show the realm of sin getting bigger and bigger no matter what God does. So in Genesis three, they sin, they're kicked out, it gets worse.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So things aren't better. Their own son kills the next one. Genesis chapter six, the sons of God have sex with the sons of women, and it just pollutes the the human DNA pool. It makes things worse. Then Genesis chapter 11, the sons of God, Nimrod, you know what?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We don't need God to come down to us, we can go up to him. Mhmm. And so he builds Babel to erect a connection and reestablish. Right? And it's a rebellion.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Not only are we gonna rebel, but we're gonna go back to the throne. Mhmm. And you can't go there, baby. You can't go. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And God destroys it, and he confuses the languages, and he spreads it out, but these giants keep popping up. Yeah. They keep coming up. And so we see it with Joshua and and and Moses, we see it with David. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so really, your whole life is killing these unhealthy, unholy giants in your life so that you can become like Christ. And Christ has given us the victory in that, and we gotta trust that. But Chris, that was a great,
Donna Martin:great Great question. So people are
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:driving and their jaw just dropped.
Donna Martin:I know. Now everybody's googling that from to the bible. You know? Awesome. Alright.
Donna Martin:I love that. Okay. So this is Viviana from Riverside, California. I just finished reading first Samuel and getting into second Samuel. I was curious on getting more context in David and Jonathan's friendship.
Donna Martin:Given the cultural climate we're in, how am I able to defend this friendship from others claiming it's homosexual and used as an affirming passage for the LGBTQ community and Christianity?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right. So, Viviana, I'm gonna give you every affirming bible verse for the LGBTQ plus community right now in the whole Bible. I'm gonna give you every single one. Are you ready? Ready.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's it. That's I first I gave everyone to you. So it doesn't exist. So what happens is and this is really a problem, is this idea that men can't truly love each other without wanting to have sex with each other. And so that's the problem.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I would say there's nothing in the text to indicate that David loved Jonathan in a sexual way, and there's nothing in the text to indicate that Jonathan loved David in a sexual way. What they're doing is they're reading back into that, trying to see something that's a current problem for us today. And what's condemned in the Bible is not love between two men, it's not friendship between two men. What's condemned is the sex act. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And again, why? It goes against the created order. So what what does Satan say? No. No.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. Did God really say that? Mhmm. And so he's questioning, and what what Satan is doing is he causes us to rebel against the creative order, and what he's saying is your friendship is so good, it's so pure, it's so amazing, why wouldn't it be sexual? Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And what we need to say is because that goes against the created order. And so to be very, very blunt, men have penises, and women have vaginas, and they have roles. And and those roles are both for urination and for procreation. Yeah. And they fit perfectly together.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We so we know an Anatomically? How do Anatomically. Anatomically. There we go. Anatomically, we know what we're supposed to do with these things.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Our bodies tell us what we're supposed to do Our with these desires tell us something else. Our desires say they go somewhere else. Mhmm. And you know, we need to think about that. And you know, I think about, you know, so many heterosexual men, they they never think about, you know, their sperm and where it goes, you know, they just think about their desires.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And there's just I I can't tell you how many times I've prayed with men in our church that don't have two sperm to rub together. And they would they would they would die to have that, and men are just spreading their seed everywhere not thinking about it. Sorry, I didn't have two sperm everywhere. Holy shit. They don't have it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's becoming Yeah. It's becoming a bigger Yeah. And More bigger prevalent. For sure. Are becoming super infertile.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Some of it's from, you know, I think just naturally it happens in occurrence, but I think steroids is a big part. Yeah. I think our diet. Mhmm. All these chemicals that we're putting in our food Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I believe are affecting our fertility and our sexuality. Absolutely. You know, we know from science that when they spray some of this stuff on waters with frogs, frogs turn from boys to girls. They change. Their sex changes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They know this Wow. When they spray this on these toads. It's it's a huge, huge problem. And so, you know, these chemicals are, I I think, are affecting our it's the only way I can go from, okay, when in the nineteen eighties, I knew no one was gay, LGBTQ plus. My son just went to Denver last week.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He's like, dad, everybody's gay. Yeah. I mean, how do we go from no one to everyone? Right. And and this isn't something even, you know, liberal commentators, is it like, is it Bill Maher?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. Bill Maher has said, he's like, by 2050, we're all gonna be gay, because it keeps doubling. Right. And so so something is going on here. And so we just need to say, no no no.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The creative order, God's purpose for me as a man is to be married, if if I choose to have sex, to be married with my wife, and to raise children, and part of the raising of that children is to stay married and work it out. I was listening to a Jewish rabbi this week. I follow him on TikTok, and I I love I love listening to him. It's such a great perspective, but he said something that made my jaw drop, and the question was on divorce. And he said this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He said he said, no. Divorce is a commandment of the Torah, and my jaw Wow. Dropped. He said it's one of the 613 commandments. And I just went, because as a Christian, we
Donna Martin:have Jesus. Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so what Jesus says is, no no no, Moses gave that law to you because of Hearts. The hardness of your hearts. Yeah. But listening to a rabbi just go, no. No.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's a commandment. Now he did pivot and say, look, it's terrible. Sure. There's a right way to do it.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But you shouldn't do it. Mhmm. And so but it was just just hearing that language and just, you know, how important Jesus is in that. And so so the idea is, right, sex between two people, and here's what Jesus says, since the Lord has put them together, let no man tear apart. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No one is to tear apart the created order that God has set, that God has ordained. And part of that teaching, for people who say, well, Jesus never spoke on it, he is speaking on it right there. Yeah. He's aware of homosexuality. Homosexuality is practiced.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's not condoned in Judaism. It's not until the church becomes more Greek than Jewish that it's an overwhelming problem. And that's why, right in the letter to Romans, it's in the first chapter of Paul's like, hey, guys, just so you know, this is not part of God's creative order because Gentiles didn't know that. Mhmm. So so, you know
Donna Martin:I also feel like this the story of David is so descriptive and intense. If it was that, God would have said Yes. You know what I'm saying? He's killing folks. He's got 40,000,000 wives.
Donna Martin:I mean, if there was something that was going on in this relationship, of all the stories in the bible, I feel like we would know. You're David Swipe.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Put stuff under the rug.
Donna Martin:Right. I mean Exactly.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Melody's sermon last week. Yeah. Oh my lord. Like, I didn't know what she was preaching. I sat down.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Was like, oh lord. Here we go. Because I know that story, and it's a really, really difficult story. You know, it's incest, it's rape, and then it's what happens to a lot of victims of sexual abuse. The parents do
Donna Martin:nothing about it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right. Right. You know? I mean, David was a man after God's own heart, but he's a terrible father. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Terrible. Terrible. Terrible. And he and he had sex, and, you know, he did a lot of things he wasn't supposed to do. And so, you know, the Torah commands kings not to have many wives.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. Both he and Solomon violated that. So Solomon took it
Donna Martin:to the next level. I know. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you.
Donna Martin:I yeah. I just when I read this, I'm like, I think you're right. Us trying to inter we have to be careful not to interpret the Bible through our own cultural context and, like, try to impose on it. And I think this is what's so hard with young people right now and just this constant bombardment of, like, choose your sexuality. Choose what you're gonna do.
Donna Martin:Are you gay like, when I was in high school, nobody asked you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I
Donna Martin:know. You didn't have a choice. Nobody nobody said, well, which one are you choosing? There that wasn't even a question. We knew a couple of gay people Yeah.
Donna Martin:And and that was fine. We knew who they were, but there was no no one presented you with this, are you gay or straight, or are you trans or whatever. Yeah. And I think because the culture is so perverted and so you know, has twisted so much, what would have been what I do with my best friend, hold hands with my best friend twenty years ago, is now like, oh, now it's your girlfriend. And it's like, no.
Donna Martin:That, she's pretty. That's my best friend, and it's fine for us to have this relationship, and it's not sexual. Right. And I think our culture has done such an injustice to kids where they're feeling like they're having to choose, and even things that would be innocent, like a close friendship relationship with Jonathan and David is now, well, it's sexual.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's And not there's just there's just no evidence to suggest that at all. It's just mere speculation, and and what I would say is, it's actually worse, it's slander against their friendship.
Donna Martin:Yeah. It's
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:saying it's making something sexual that's not sexual. That's not. And that's what our culture is doing is we've made everything sexual, including childhood. You know, it's just so it's so wrong, and, you know, we just we we we just cannot see that in there. And so, you know, that's the problem with with a lot of that doctrine.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Know, I've I've wrestled with this, you know, because I want to know what God's word says, I've gay people that I love, that matter so much to me, and I wanna make sure that I'm understanding the text right. I probably haven't studied Viviana, an issue more in the Bible than this. Probably need to study the Nephilim a little more. But but when it comes to this, I mean, I've read tediously boring, instructive, fall asleep, wake yourself up again books on this, it's just not true. You know?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so even oftentimes, you know, there was a big to do because a professor at Fullerton said that the gay community are the new Gentiles that we have to open our doors to. And so everybody was praising this, I said, okay. And I went and read the article, and he literally said, to be clear, this is not taught in scripture. He said, but I believe this is what he said, this is an evolution of our faith. Oh, okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But because I'm like, okay, what what does he know that I haven't seen? And he said he said, to be clear. And so what a lot of gay people say is the same thing, that in Revelation, what they're condemning is two things. Men having sex with boys and forced sex with slaves. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And to be clear in Genesis one, that is not what Paul is condemning. It is men having sex with men Or men's and women having sex with women. And there's no hint of forced or whatever, which I'm not saying that didn't happen. I mean, when you were a slave, you had to do what a slave did. Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it was terrible. You know, you didn't have, what is it, rights over your body. How do they say? Sure. They didn't have autonomy or not autonomy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They didn't have oh, I can't think of the word. The abortion side uses all the time. I have agency. Agency, yeah. Slaves did not have agency over their bodies, and so I imagine a lot of slaves sitting in their first century church hearing these teachings were like, okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I I don't know exactly what I'm gonna do, because I don't know that my owner is gonna be like, yeah. We don't do this anymore. Right. So, you know, that's a challenging thing. So so what I would say is, you know, it's it's just not it's just not in the text.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's just not.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. Okay. This is Jennifer from Corona, California.
Donna Martin:In Revelation twenty one one, it says there will be a new earth and a new heaven. Who is gonna be living on the new earth or the new heaven?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Well, JWs tell you if the 144,000 need to live in heaven, so if you don't what JW
Donna Martin:is past that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Job Yeah. So it's real it's real unfortunate, you know, because that was their big push when they first started is you wanna be in the 144. And here's what I would say is you don't wanna be in heaven. You wanna be in the new earth.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So heaven is for celestial beings and God. Yeah. Earth is for you and I. And, you know, you are not meant to be a disembodied spirit. There's this really, really strange passage in the book of Revelation where those who have been murdered and and lost their heads, say how long before we we we get the resurrection, and the Lord gives them a special covering, because we are not made to to live as disembodied spirits.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so that's just not how we were made. We were made to have bodies. And so, you know, oftentimes when we think of our loved ones in heaven, they don't have a body. They're waiting for their resurrected body. So on the new heaven and the new earth, and so we need to understand this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So within the council of God, right, Satan fell. And so a lot of people, they wanna know the story of Satan falling. You know what I think? Mhmm. I think Genesis three is the story.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I think I think it's it's the story of man and Satan falling at the same time.
Donna Martin:Wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I I I, you know, and I I can't prove that Mhmm. But I think that that is his fall, that he is cast to the ground. Mhmm. So when Jesus said, I saw Satan fall Mhmm. Like, know, stars from heaven, I think Genesis three is his story.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's not just our story. Wow. It's his story. And so of believing his own deception. You know, he is the deceiver, he is the accuser.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So we need a new heaven, a new earth. Man, I learned something this week in the Greek language, so does anybody speak Spanish in here? Do you speak Spanish? So in Spanish, you know, the devil is diablos Mhmm. Or diablo.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. So that comes to us from the Greek word for the devil. Do you wanna know what the root word for gossip is oftentimes in the New Testament? It's we're deviling when we're gossiping.
Donna Martin:Wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So not only is the devil in the world, but he's in us when we slander each other and we talk about each other. Isn't that scary? Yeah. Yes. That the word that Paul chooses to use in the Greek for gossip, he borrows from devil.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Devil ing. Yeah. Like, that is just really scary to think about what can happen. So we want a new heaven, a new earth, so we gotta go go back to Genesis three, and I know this is confusing. So excuse me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We gotta go back to Genesis one. So God, it it says, Genesis one one, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Then there's all kinds of different theories between what happens, Genesis one and Genesis two. I hold to a gap theory that there's a period of time. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I think that Genesis one is in the beginning, whenever that was, God created it, and then God allowed things to get right. So we think about how long, like, you know, we're we're waiting. We went out to dinner with Madison last night, so we're thirty three weeks. Mhmm. I say we.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't have a baby in me. But it feels so long, like I'm like Yeah. Come on, get here already. Like, I wanna hold you, I wanna see you, I wanna love you, I wanna change you, I wanna smell you. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know? And it feels so long, but God is taking ten months, not nine months, single guys need to know this, ten months to prepare us for him. He needs ten months. And so when God created things, you know, I think there's an evolutionary process that science has rightly identified that prepared
Donna Martin:Sure.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It to get ready for us. And then God comes over in Genesis chapter one verse two over the darkness of the earth. And so, right, there's water.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So think about that. There's water over the deep, and there's chaos, and it's wild. Mhmm. So when people say, where were the dinosaurs? Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Probably right there. It was it was not you and I don't wanna be ducking a T Rex, you know what I'm saying? So it was not suitable for man. And so then God creates this safe place. Now everybody listen.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:This safe place between heaven and earth, and it's called Eden. Now later, we'll call it the temple Mhmm. Or the tabernacle. Mhmm. It's this unique place that is a trans portal, now think about that, between heaven and earth.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's what Eden is. It's the place where God comes and walks amongst us. It's very, very cool. So then Jesus, right, comes to earth because the temple is about ready to be destroyed. So there's no Eden, there's no tabernacle, there's no temple.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Jesus is killed. Mhmm. And then we become The tabernacle. The temple. We are Eden.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We are the tabernacle. The Holy Spirit dwells inside of us. And so again, back to the homosexuality piece. If you're a Christian, you are set apart by God Yeah. For his holy purpose.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I had this conversation with my son. He's 21 years old. He's good kid. He's never done anything that normal 21 year old boys don't do. But I said, you have to ask yourself, are you called to be normal or supernatural?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And every Christian has to wrestle with this. Because when we compare ourselves, we compare ourselves with everyday people. Well, are you called to be an everyday person? Or are are you called to be a set apart person of God?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. Something for holy use. Mhmm. And if you are, then you don't do with your body as you will, because your body is not your own. And Paul tells us this in first Corinthians to a church who thought they could do what they wanted with their bodies.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And Paul says, no, no, no. Don't you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit? And and we need to think about that. So what are we waiting for?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right now, there's a part of me, right, that's the temple, and I connect with God. There's gonna be a time where all of me connects with And that's in the new heaven and the new earth. And so here's the thing, the entire earth will be connected within the entire heaven. And there won't be a place anymore, but they both will be fully connected, fully embraced, and fully one in some way where God is with us. And so what we see in Revelation is we see a city.
Donna Martin:Come out
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:of Descending from heaven.
Donna Martin:It's cool.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And where does it land? On earth. And there's no daylight, there's no nighttime. Right? It's this beautiful beautiful place.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Christians will rule and reign with Jesus on the new earth that is no longer chaotic. It's no longer under rebellion. It is under it is firmly and safely and forever under the rule reign of God. And then there's some weird stuff in Revelation that we gotta figure out where the devil's released for a period of Sometimes.
Donna Martin:Yeah. So Unlocked. He comes out the pit.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. There are very few Christians that agree on anything on that. And so again, the book of Revelation is a very, very difficult thing to write, because again, it's written in code to protect Christians. Yeah. And I think we talked about this a couple weeks ago, that, you know, a lot of Christians have completely missed the fact that the tribulation is seven years, and that the attack on Jerusalem Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Took seven And so they're they're missing that. And John is trying to write about this war that's taking place, and it feels like the church is losing, because the armies of Rome are coming in
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And everything is against us, and yet what happens? The church escapes. Yeah. The church thrives, and the church wins, and we will rule, and we will reign. It's not the Roman Empire that's gonna reign for a thousand years, it's Jesus.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. He's gonna reign for a thousand years. And then ultimately, right, there's going to be this huge final battle of Gog and Magog and all these things, and and to last week's question, it's probably the Nephilim, the final battle. Yeah. More Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:More than them, and it's the final crushing and destruction of them where they are all cast into the bottomless pit. And and then it's over, and then it's good. So Jennifer, it's a great question, but many Christians miss this, they think heaven is the goal. No. No.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. The new earth is the goal. Yeah. The new earth is the goal. And I, you know, I was driving around Riverside today, and and I just I'm so frustrated that they don't have people pick up trash anymore.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So when I was a kid, if you got drunk driving or you got a ticket or whatever, you worked on the weekends And picking up I don't know how how we lost that, but there's just garbage everywhere, and it drives me crazy. And so Tammy and I live on a busy street, so every morning I get up and I'm picking up somebody's Del Taco wrapper or somebody's Big Gulp drink, and it's just they're they're literally throwing garbage on my home. Yeah. And that's the way the world is. And we have a beautiful house, and and I love my home, but there's just garbage constantly.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There's gonna be a day where there's no garbage anymore. It's just clean. Yeah. And it's beautiful and it's perfect and I can't wait to live on that new earth. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because if you think about it, Riverside could be truly beautiful. If it was landscaped right, if it was hydrated right. Right. You know, we have beautiful mountains everywhere. San Bernardino is beautiful.
Donna Martin:I was like, don't get me started on San Bernardino. Yeah. Could be
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It could be gorgeous. Southern California should be the most beautiful place on It's just, you know, there's no reason we shouldn't look like Palm Springs. Right. There's just no reason. But it's just a lot of garbage, a lot of trash, and a lot of poverty.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. In heaven, there's no poverty. The new earth, there's no nobody's poor anymore.
Donna Martin:Right. Amen.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know? So Awesome.
Donna Martin:Great effort. These are great questions. Thank you so much for checking out this episode. Can You always submit your own questions by going to move.sc/ask, or ask us there in the comments. Please let us know what you think, and, or you can go to the Sandals Church app and ask us there.
Donna Martin:We're so grateful that you've listened. See you next time.
Scott Schutte:Thanks for checking out this episode. If you'd like to support this podcast, you can donate at sandalschurch.com/support. This podcast is a way for pastor Matt Brown to answer your questions about topics like the Bible, God, relationships, and culture. Like pastor Matt often says on the show, a podcast is not a pastor. If you like prayer or need to speak with someone about a specific situation you were going through, you can email us at help@sandalschurch.com.
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