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DISRxUPT is a podcast from the Cedarville University Center for Pharmacy Innovation which explores novel advances in the practice of pharmacy. From nanotechnology to unique public health initiatives, DISRxUPT will highlight stories of pharmacists who are changing the paradigm of patient care.
Tune in for new content once a month detailing how the profession of pharmacy continues to change and how the Center for Pharmacy Innovation is playing a key role in this transformation.
Welcome to DISRxUPT, a podcast of the Cedarville University Center for Pharmacy Innovation. Today on the podcast, we are joined by Katrina Azer. Katrina is a pharmacist from New Zealand. But more than that, she's an entrepreneur, educator, and a global thought leader in precision medicine. She's the founder of the Australasian Precision Medicine Academy and a passionate advocate for empowering pharmacists to step into leadership and purpose driven careers.
Justin Cole:Well, listeners, welcome back to DISRxUPT. I'm your host, Justin Cole, and I am extremely excited about this episode. And today, our guest is joining us from another day and across the world. So, Katrina, I am so excited to have you on the podcast. Thanks for being willing to come on and talk about a lot of things that we have in common in terms of passions.
Katrina Azer:Thank you so much for the opportunity to be here, Justin. I'm really excited too. I've recorded multiple podcasts with colleagues across The United States, but this one is a special one because I'm hoping that we can touch on faith and purpose driven careers, which is something that I haven't discussed on previous podcasts. So it's a pleasure to be here. And who knew all the way from New Zealand that I'd be talking to you today?
Justin Cole:Yeah. Who knew? Well, I'm just so thankful that you were willing to connect with us. Yeah, I will just say if you want to know a little bit more about the work that Katrina is doing, you're going to hear a lot more here. But go follow her on social, on LinkedIn.
Justin Cole:She's got a lot of great stuff, great content out there to encourage you in so many ways. So Katrina, your journey into pharmacy is anything but traditional, as I've learned a little bit about your story. So maybe you can walk us through how you transitioned from a clinical pharmacy job to really being a globally recognized entrepreneur in pharmacogenomics.
Katrina Azer:Well, this is a very elaborate story, Justin. And to be honest, this question, I never know where to approach it from because my career, as you said, has been anything but traditional. But I would say it's accidental where I got here. My career or in my career, I've always chased curiosity. So I'm really curiosity led.
Katrina Azer:I always chase what I'm driven by. What do I want to know more about? So I was just a community pharmacist, and I probably shouldn't say just a community pharmacist because community pharmacists do a lot of work. They are the front facing health professionals that are often under recognized for the impact they have in health care. So I was proud to be a community pharmacist, but there came a point in my career where I faced incredible burnout, and it wasn't so much the it wasn't so much community pharmacy because I know there are a lot of community pharmacists out there who work in great atmospheres, great environments that are really supportive.
Katrina Azer:Just the workplace wasn't as supportive as it could be. I felt like a cog in a wheel just dispensing but not practising my passions for, you know, talking to patients. It was a semi small to medium pharmacy. So often I'd be working sole charge, so I'd be the only pharmacist on-site. And during the height of the pandemic, that's when I just hit a brick wall.
Katrina Azer:And I talk about that in my upcoming book, which we're going to touch on later. But at that point, I was at crossroads. It was either I continued to do what I was doing to put up with a burnout, to put up with the fact that I was also suffering, or I did get admitted to hospital with a life threatening kidney infection, which led to my pharmacogenomics journey later on, and I'll talk about on that in a moment. But that health experience combined with the burnout and just hitting the brick wall made me realize I really need to stop and pause and take care of my health. It's just going to be sustainable in the long run.
Katrina Azer:I have a family. I have young children. I can no longer operate this way. And that's when I just decided, you know what? I'm just gonna hand in my resignation.
Katrina Azer:I absolutely had no idea what I was doing. Everybody thought I was mad because people usually jump from one job to another. But here I was telling my family I can no longer do this. I'm just gonna step out and just figure out next steps when I have had that mind space. And that probably wasn't the first time I in my career journey that I have just stepped out without a plan p because there were other times, I think two or three times in my journey when and this is something I would also encourage other pharmacists to think about when you're at that crossroads, that feeling of, is this right for me?
Katrina Azer:Should I keep doing this? I think it really helps to step out of the situation, out of the workplace, take some time off and just really think about it. Is this the right step? Because sometimes we also make a lot of wrong decisions under stress. So I stepped out, but that time because I had a health condition that put me or jeopardised my ability to keep working the way that I was working was putting a lot of pressure on me.
Katrina Azer:I just had to step out for good. So I did that, Got into vaccinations. It was during the heart of the pandemic, so pharmacists were required for their vaccination skills. We were vaccinating for COVID and so on. So I stepped into that for about two or three months.
Katrina Azer:And then I'll be honest with you. I really appreciate pharmacists vaccinating. Like, we do need pharmacists upskilling in this area and ensuring that populations have access to vaccinations. But there was an element of, oh my god, I've spent five years at university and here I am just sitting here jabbing people. Like, I wasn't even using all the clinical skills that I was doing.
Katrina Azer:And that was really frustrating for me. It's like, I want to be talking to patients about what matters, you know, about health care and and, you know, how they can improve their health, how can they maximize on their medications or improve their use of medications and so on. So there was an element of me that declined that as a long term solution, so I did that. And then it was at that time in New Zealand as well that digital health or virtual health care was becoming a thing. So I came across on social media, on LinkedIn, a company or a medical provider that was offering virtual health care consultations or doctors.
Katrina Azer:And I was like, wouldn't it be amazing if pharmacists can do that too? So I reached out to the CEO, just went straight in for the CEO, not even the recruiter or anything because I didn't even know if they had one. I was like, do you like like, would you like a pharmacist on your team? And he just replied with, you know, I can't believe you're actually reaching out directly to me, but I do appreciate it. You're such a go getter.
Katrina Azer:I don't even know what a pharmacist would do or how they could contribute to a health care team. Like, well, you know, I'm here we're here all, you know, doctors and nurses. And so he invited me for a fifteen minute chat, and I was like, you know, that's an opportunity. So I had to go from this community pharmacist who has no idea what, you know, a pitch deck is or how to pitch myself or all of these things that you'd, you know, do to talking to, you know, a CEO or a founder of a big company worth billions of dollars now. And it really hit the nail on the head and just tell him exactly what a pharmacist would do on a healthcare team or working in a multidisciplinary care with doctors and nurses and what value they would provide.
Katrina Azer:And so I did that. I just put it pitched quick five slides. This is what a pharmacist does. This is what a pharmacist does. And I think what made it so impactful was putting in statistics of the value that pharmacists save in the long term to medical providers in terms of financial costs, in terms of improving patient care, improving adherence.
Katrina Azer:And also, to be honest, one of the most significant things is just saving doctor and nurses time because, you know, we can answer a lot of the telephone calls that doctors and nurses would get in respect to medications that they might necessarily not have the time for. So I did that, transitioned to that role. He invited me to go and speak to his leadership team, which is in another city. And they were like, yep, we're happy to have you on board. You need to put together your job description and your hourly rate and everything.
Katrina Azer:So I created a role for myself, which didn't exist. And that was my transition to digital health care and virtual health care. Did that for a year and that was pretty amazing. Then I had a recurrence of my health condition, which are my kidney stones and a flare up of that, which led to me needing hospitalization. And I was plus another life threatening episode.
Katrina Azer:This time, I had septic shock, so I was admitted to ICU. And amongst all that, I had a lot of pain for people who don't know how painful kidney stones are. They are excruciating. So ever have a patient who's suffering from kidney stones, they're just nothing like not even like labor, very, very intense pain. And I wasn't responding to pain medications.
Katrina Azer:And I thought it was all in my head. I was led to believe it was all in my head. That was a tumultuous time. But out of that was born my passion for pharmacogenomics, because when I came out of hospital and overcome that a few months later, was like, hang on, why wasn't I responding to these medications? You know, I know according to my knowledge as a pharmacist that I should be responding to opioids because they're very strong.
Katrina Azer:So I went to Doctor Google because nobody else had the answer, and Doctor Google was pretty amazing and it told me maybe it's genetics. So I reached out to 11 in The United States, got a test done, and it identified that I was a poor metaboliser of CYP26. I wasn't responding to the likes of codeine and tramadol and some other medications as well. And so I was like, oh my god, I'm a pharmacist and I have no idea what this area of practice is about. And how do I not know this?
Katrina Azer:Actually it was borderline shame that I was a pharmacist, and I didn't know about this. So I just took a deep dive into pharmacogenomics, learned all about it, and I was like, I really need to upscale here. I don't think I have the required knowledge or skills to do to to to provide this as a service because that was all in my head at the moment. It's like, how can I turn this into a a service? So I studied university at Pittsburgh, got my certification, and then started, you know, beta testing some patients here in the community, reaching out to providers.
Katrina Azer:And when I had a model that's kind of semi functional user pay model, I then started, you know, reaching out to more providers and so on. And I've shared all the journey on social media, shared my, you know, passion for pharmacogenomics and how I was growing in the area and setting up my business and so on. And then I had pharmacists reach out to get help to do the same thing and quite a few. So I was like, well, if I have a kind of semi functional model that can help other people, why don't I take this into some form of education? And from then, it was born the Australasian Precision Medicine Academy because we do not have pharmacogenomics in New Zealand or Australia or Australasia, should I say.
Katrina Azer:Yeah. It was just reaching out to pharmacists who were interested in saying, I'm putting this thing together. Do you want to give it a try? Do you want to complete the education? Just packed all of my knowledge together, but more so the business and reach outside of setting up a business.
Katrina Azer:Like, how do you put together a business model? How do you reach out to providers? There there is a clinical certification, which did they get accredited by New Zealand Qualifications Authority, which is pretty amazing. So I spent quite a bit of money doing that because I wanted it to be something reputable. But I think what attracts people to the academy is more the business and implementation modules, which is probably over half of the certification that I provide, but it's there's nothing like it in Australasia, and that makes me really proud that I was able to put together something like that.
Katrina Azer:And, you know, have it attract international audience from as far as as The United States is pretty impressive, but that is pretty much my journey in a nutshell. There is a lot more detail to it, but this is how I transitioned from being community pharmacist to pharmacogenomics consultant in the Australasian Precision Medicine Academy. And I would say my top characteristic for for this is just chasing curiosity, just learning and learning about things that I don't know about. Yeah. And that's where I'm Absolutely.
Justin Cole:Yeah. And you you brought up a a couple of very important points. I think that curiosity, I I resonate with that. I don't know how many of our listeners or if you've done StrengthsFinder, you've heard of that, but learner is very high on my strengths. And so part of being able to find opportunities and step in is simply being curious and asking questions.
Justin Cole:Even the opportunity that you had with the first physician you mentioned was there because you asked them questions about and learned about their pain points, right? Suddenly you've created your own job or been invited to do it. And so it's just a great lesson in not only learning, but also being willing to ask questions that often can open many, many doors. So you also mentioned that in Australasia, the pharmacogenomics, the potential for having that used in clinical practices may be limited. So I'm curious, it seems like it's still emerging in many parts of the world.
Justin Cole:I would argue here in The United States, it's still emerging in many ways. Do you see any big barriers to its adoption and how are you working to overcome those? I know a lot
Katrina Azer:of people would talk about reimbursement being a barrier to adoption. But from my perspective, with the work that I've been doing, and I'm presenting on this to the Pharmaconomist Global Network soon, I think leadership and awareness are probably more of a barrier than reimbursement. If you think about it, there are many health care professionals that charge a lot of money for their services. I think in perspective, a pharmacogenomics test, even if you look at the likes of The United States, and I know it's expensive, they're like $300 Over here, we it's about $130 which is really affordable. There are many health care professionals that charge for their services.
Katrina Azer:And people pay because they see the value. I think reimbursement personally is not the bigger power barrier. Leadership and awareness. Having a professional that takes the lead, nobody is owning this. So that is actually a huge opportunity for pharmacists.
Katrina Azer:So if all pharmacists go out, they're creating, taking the lead saying this is a service and this is patients, you need this because this is the value it provides. And if all pharmacists do that, it becomes national, it becomes known. I think we're going to create a lot of impact. And being educators in this space. So going to patients, and this is why I also say pharmacists are the translators of pharmacogenomics because you have a dual role of educating patients about the value, educating providers or other providers in the health care system like doctors.
Katrina Azer:What is it about? And what is the value it brings to health care? So we've got a dual role here. So we need to take the lead, and we need to be educators creating that awareness for pharmacogenomics. And personally, I think these are the two bigger barriers followed by reimbursement.
Katrina Azer:But as someone who's set in the health care space or in the regulatory and governance space, this is also a role that I haven't talked about, but I do sit on a few boards, one of them the Pharmacy Council of New Zealand. But having sat in that space and just overseeing strategy and implementation of policy, Reimbursement is a byproduct of awareness and education. We're not gonna get to a level of reimbursement until it becomes wide stream enough that health care regulators or policy setters will be like, oh, this is something that a lot of people are doing. Maybe it's time we reimbursement or reimburse it. And I think this is where the problem is.
Katrina Azer:It's like, is it the chicken or the egg first? Like, we need to create the awareness and the adoption so that it becomes part of policy and we get reimbursed for it. So from my perspective, these are the barriers. Pharmacists have got a huge opportunity to lead in this space, and I really wish more pharmacists would do that. I know a lot of them would be like, oh, but I've tried.
Katrina Azer:It's not reimbursed. I think you need to knock on a lot of doors. So where I got to with my consulting business, you just knock on so many doors. So if you reach out to, like, 10 providers, expect you maybe or only two or three to uptake it. But those two those two or three providers that you've got in your hands, if you can capitalize on that and make sure all their patients have access to this, well, you've created a ripple effect because more and more providers will come on board after that.
Katrina Azer:But we often knock on one door, maybe two, and the fear of rejection puts us back and it's like, no. I I'm too scared. I don't wanna I don't wanna have a no anymore. But no is part of life. Right?
Katrina Azer:You've gotta knock on so many doors to seize the ones that open for you. So that's my perspective about, you know, pharmacogenomics and where it's heading and where the barriers are.
Justin Cole:Yeah, great insights. I'm just struck by, I think the barriers, even though we may have different types of healthcare systems around the world, they're very similar, right? I think your suggestions are great to trying to break those down. Hey, I want to shift a little bit. So one of the things that I often have seen you posting about and talking about is this idea of pharmacists having purpose driven careers.
Justin Cole:So I'd love to know what does that mean to you and how can pharmacists start aligning their work with their purpose?
Katrina Azer:So for me, purpose is my why. Why do I do what I am doing? When you're driven by a reason that's grounded in service, you're far more likely to succeed than if you do it out of obligation. Obligation. I think that's where we fall short.
Katrina Azer:We start our careers, start become more of I need I must do this or I should do this because this is my only means to live. And when our careers become more of an end and in themselves than a means to an end, that's where that shift kind of doesn't happen and we get into a trap. So I think we often get caught like a cog in a wheel and lose sight of why we do what we do. And that's where many farmers stay bound to the normal way of practice, which is the only way I can do this. Like, this is the only way I can practice pharmacy as well.
Katrina Azer:We start to have this finite thinking rather than where is the need for service and how can I fulfill that need or that gap? So this is where you need to inject your why. Why are you doing what you're doing in the setting that you're doing it in? If you can't can't get to the bottom of that, that misalignment is what creates burnout because you feel like you're forced into something that rather than doing it because you're willingly doing it. And I think purpose also goes beyond our professional identities because personally, as someone who's I hope who who goes by faith, I'm here I know I'm here on earth for a reason, and God has given us so many talents to pursue.
Katrina Azer:And as someone who is Christian, I'm always led by that. What are my talents, and how can I capitalize on them? And I'm sure you would have heard the parable of the talents, which is in Matthew twenty five fourteen, which is a story of a master interesting as wealth like talents. In my view, this is what God meant by it or a large sum of money to his servants before going on the journey. And then upon his return, he assesses how or reassesses how each of those servants managed their trusted wealth.
Katrina Azer:And and the parable really highlights the importance of using our abilities and resources to the fullest and the consequences of not being diligent and neglecting those talents. So you need to bring your purpose or your talent, whether it's communication, whether it's outreach to patients, whether like for me, it's my love for education, educating pharmacists, educating patients and infusing in that. But also there's two sides to the coin. It's infusing purpose into your job every day. Why do you do what you do?
Katrina Azer:But also what are your talents? Another talent that I have that's a little bit different to my role as a pharmacist is writing. I love writing. I love creating content. I love inspiring people.
Katrina Azer:And I found that as I've practiced that more, as I've put my voice out there and reached to people and put my ideas out on LinkedIn, for example, more and more people are seeing faith as such a valuable aspect of their practice as pharmacists to drive them to purpose. And I look at it this way. This is a talent that God has given me to write and inspire other people. And if I don't use it, that means more people can come to God. If I don't use it this way, God, in the final days, would be like, Katrina, I've given you this talent.
Katrina Azer:You're a great writer. Why didn't you use it to bring people to me? So, yes, I can go out there creating all sorts of content on LinkedIn, but I've infused my faith and purpose into that because I know this is the talent God has given me that I'm entrusted for, that one day I'll stand in front of him and be like, this is what you've given me and here I am, you know, with with what I've done with it and how I've grown it. And so purpose is a big thing. Infuse it into your career, but also infuse it into your way of bringing talent.
Katrina Azer:What talent do you have, you know, whether it's creativity, however it manifests for you that you can use to serve the world. Because I think when you fill your cup with creativity and growing and nurturing your talents, I think that also has a good side effect, which is filling your cup and making you more effective at your daytime job. Because I don't think I think personally that pharmacists need to have a job as in a career and a talent or a hobby that they pursue. Because we are created to be creatives like God. You know, we're not just we're we're we're we're tools to bring out the best in ourselves and in people around us.
Katrina Azer:And I think creativity feeds that. Creativity feeds our our drive to produce something, to make an impact in the world. And I think we need to nurture and grow that and service to God, but also because when you do that, like, think about making a good meal or building something from scratch. You always get that sense of fulfillment. And I think that sense of fulfillment makes you feel like you are of value, like you can contribute, that you are doing things that matters and that feeds into your career as well and fills your cup that way.
Katrina Azer:So this is a long winded answer to your question about purpose, but I think purpose is key in growth. And you need to find your purpose in your job, but also in nurturing your talents as well.
Justin Cole:Well, Katrina, your passion comes out very much in your in your answer. And I would just say one of the things that I've admired most about the content that you create is the Christian faith forward aspect that has really come front and center in many ways. Katrina, I don't know if you're like me, but I think at times it can feel like maybe we imagine this, but that is not accepted or allowed, right, on some of these platforms. And yet you had the courage to make sure that you were authentic with who you are and how you live your life and your career based on your values and in particular, your Christian faith. And so, again, I so admire that, and I think you've actually inspired others to come out come out of the the shadows, if you will, and really be more vocal with how faith informs their practice.
Justin Cole:Would you find that that's been true here recently?
Katrina Azer:Honestly, I could spend hours talking about this. I was so scared of putting myself out there with God, but I was like, Katrina, one day you're gonna stand in front of God. And he said that if you're ashamed of me here, know, if I that that really struck me, that bible verse, I can't be ashamed of this is who I am. And the more I silenced that voice, the more I told myself, oh, no. I I wanna hide that part of me because this is professional platform.
Katrina Azer:And people will judge me the more there was this battle. There was this constant battle inside me, but this is who I am. And I've always come forward with my full authentic self, and I can't hide that part of me anymore. And I thought, well, you know what? Just put it out there.
Katrina Azer:Tell people who you are and what you're about. And I released that one post. I think the first one I talked about faith openly was the Easter post and what Easter means to me, the Easter and kind of culture versus the Western culture. And I was like, people are like, we love this. You know?
Katrina Azer:This is so on point. We want more people and then I released another post and that got even more engagement. And the the amount of DMs I received, you know, where you were one of them, people reaching out, want to talk more about it so much that I kind of I said they had to decline a lot of people because it was just getting to a point where it's like, I can't dedicate more time to this. But people love this type of content. And for me, that was a signal.
Katrina Azer:That was a sign that people actually want to see our full authentic selves, but more so see faith out there and see it as being recognised and accepted widely for me was a major turning point in my content. It allowed me it gave me the permission, not that I needed it, to bring my full self forward on LinkedIn, and it's been one of the best things that I've done because now I feel like I'm not a two sided person. Like, I'm not an impostor. You know, there is this part of me that I'm kind of hiding in the shadows that I can't talk about, but now I just bring my full authentic self to the front saying, this is who I am. This is how I practice.
Katrina Azer:And I put God front and center, and it's been one of the best decisions I've made when it comes to creating content and putting myself out on LinkedIn. But completely hear you. It is not a an uncommon thought. A lot of us think this way, and I think it is justified because there is a lot of anti faith talk out there. There are lot of people who don't like it, but the people who like it and appreciate it and connect with it are far more than we think they would.
Katrina Azer:There are so many of them out there who just need that faith based content. Because faith is so important, you know, and everything in our lives falters and our careers falters. What stands true? You know, God is the only truth in this world. And everything else will perish.
Katrina Azer:Everything else material will perish, but he will stand true forever. And people need to be reminded of that, you know, on a daily basis that, hey, If this is going on for you today, if you're having a difficult time, just know this is just all temporary. This is not it. This is not the final destination. There's something better to be looking out for.
Katrina Azer:So it's been the best decision I've made, and I'm really, you know, kind of giving myself a pat on the back for coming out with it. But I really appreciate the people who've connected with me as well and have engaged with the content. Because if they didn't, I probably wouldn't have had that signal to keep putting myself forward with face, front, and center. So yeah.
Justin Cole:Well, let this be an encouragement to to keep on going. You've inspired myself and others to do to do the same in different ways because we do if the gospel is true and if we believe it, it should change all of what we do, including how we communicate and and what we say on any platform that the Lord gives us. It's a stewardship issue. And so kudos to that. And I'll just say thank you for letting me be one of those people that did engage with you on this.
Justin Cole:I'm I'm very blessed to to be able to say that we've gotten to interact on that front. Also, you're someone who's worn many hats. We've already talked about a lot of them. You're a pharmacist, entrepreneur, education is a passion. You're a fellow podcaster.
Justin Cole:You've already talked about the importance of your family and your role as a mom. I'm sure faith plays into this as well, but how do you balance all these roles and what keeps you motivated? Maybe we've already touched on it, but what are the things that keep you grounded and motivated?
Katrina Azer:So I've said days as my roles have gone as I've chased more of my curiosity and as my roles have kind of gone on different unexpected, fully unexpected tangents, like, you know, everything I've ever done or got to right here now is honestly accidental. Chasing curiosity and just putting God front and center, asking him, what do you want me to do? Because I believe each and every one of us, when we were created, God had a vision for us. He had a dream. And it's allowing yourself to step into that dream.
Katrina Azer:And you can't do that if you don't make him lead your life and you don't chase curiosity. So when people come to me saying, wanna find out about this or what do you think? I'm like, go and learn about it. Like, take the lead. Take ownership in educating yourself.
Katrina Azer:So as I've diverged into different parts of my role, I've set days for doing certain things. And as I started pursuing different things, I will openly admit that least of my time has become dedicated to direct patient care and to other roles. So I would probably say I'm maybe 10 to 15% of the time a patient facing pharmacist, maybe a few hours a week. But at the moment, I'd probably also say that I've traded most of my roles for the book that I'm writing, which is really important to me because it's a big project where I'm combining all of the hats that you and telling people, this is how I got here. But not only this is how I got here, this is how I got to the top and realized that no matter how top I get, it's not going to be enough, and I will keep wanting more.
Katrina Azer:And so now and I think I released a post about this, you know, getting to the top of the mountain to realize, hang on. Is this the right mountain that I've been climbing? And and how do you know if this is the right mountain? What should you be led by? What should drive you to get to the right mountain?
Katrina Azer:And so I'm writing all about that in my current book, dedicating a lot of time to that every day. And it is a really difficult project, probably the most difficult thing that I will ever do because you need so much motivation to sit there in front of a blank piece of paper and figure out what do I write next. And in every sentence that I write, I'm like, God, what do you want me to say here? You know, keep me motivated. You know, my prayer every morning, please keep me motivated to write this book because some days are darn lonely.
Katrina Azer:You know? You're just sitting there with your laptop and your paper, you're like, what how do I wear this? I connect the reader, bring them along the journey because I want it to be a book that resonates. So how do I keep motivated? Firstly, by connecting to the source of all that is, which is the creator god.
Katrina Azer:As I said earlier, he feeds my creativity. You know? One of the most impactful bible chapters that I personally like to read a lot is the first one, which is how did he create? You know? The pauses he took between the days.
Katrina Azer:You know? What did he do on the why did he have to pause? I mean, I'm pretty sure he would have just, one flick of his finger, created everything. Right? He's God.
Katrina Azer:But why did he pause between days? And it's in those periods that I personally I mean, this is just me, my human thought thinking, how could I do this best? What would man need on earth, and how could I best help him to get that need? And not only that, what's even more amazing, he's he made Adam a participant in the creation process because he asked Adam after he he's created everything. Now you go and name them.
Katrina Azer:Now imagine to name all the species and the plants on earth. Right? Like, what an undertaking that would have been. So creativity is a big thing for me. And how do I get that?
Katrina Azer:How do I stay motivated to keep creating is connecting to the source. So I spend a heck of a lot of time, probably an hour to two hours every day in nature. I, you know, I do I go I go on for a lot of hikes. I go on a lot of walks. I'm a big believer also that what you put in your brain really matters because, you know, rubbish in, rubbish out.
Katrina Azer:If you're gonna stay a lot of all the day on social media scrolling, well, you're not gonna get a lot out. So what I get into my brain really, really matters to me. So I listen to a lot of podcasts, read a lot of books, and I always talk about this being an important and fundamental aspect to my career growth because I think as pharmacists and health care professionals, we're so focused on continuing education and CE, and it all becomes all about pharmacy. But I think what has allowed me to nurture my talents and really get outside the box, practice in a nontraditional way and do all these things is reading about everything and anything unrelated to pharmacy and health care, business and career and then, like, in in business growth and motivation and all of these other things that are outside my professional sphere has also allowed me to develop that lateral thinking ability and then bring all of that information into, well, how does this serve pharmacy? How does this serve that as a profession?
Katrina Azer:And that's also built my strategic thinking, which is which I bring to my board roles. So I think it's really important that if we wanna stay motivated and stay on top of the curve and really excel at what we do is don't just feed your brain everything about health care. Expand your thinking. Expand your horizon. If you wanna be an innovator, if you wanna grow in your career, read about things that are unrelated to your main domain, and I talk about this a lot.
Katrina Azer:And so that's also been one of the, you know, big things for me in terms of staying motivated. There's just my thirst for knowledge, continuous thirst for knowledge. And finally, my biggest motivator is my purpose or my why, which is to fulfill my fulfill my highest, truest expression of myself, but also help other pharmacists and people do the same. And I think how I do that is by storytelling and sharing the journey and just writing. So that's, you know, my why or my purpose is why I'm driven by and why I wake up every day to do the same thing over and over again is I know this is a talent that's got god has got has given me and he's interested me with, and I've just got to deliver on that and be accountable for it.
Katrina Azer:So yeah.
Justin Cole:That's great. So let's talk about new endeavors. So you've mentioned a book. Do you have any other exciting projects that you would like to share with our listeners today?
Katrina Azer:It's really all about the book for me, Justin. At the moment, I've shut all doors on collaborations and other projects because this as I said just before, this is a big project for me, and I really wanted to deliver the purpose of what it's meant to do, which is to inspire pharmacists, to take them on my journey, to give them a guide. So it's sort of a book of my journey, but also accompanied by guides. These are all the frameworks I've used. This is my CV.
Katrina Azer:This is how I got to this position. So I really wanted to be like a comprehensive bibliography or dictionary for this is how pharmacy is this is how you achieve career growth in pharmacy. This is the journey that I went on and this is how you can too for those pharmacists that feel that they haven't quite got it, pharmacists to feel that. And this is the title of the book, which is pharmacists who feel cold to more, but don't know what that more is. We keep chasing that more, and I talked about that earlier is what when you get you know, what is more and what happens when you get to the top of the mountain to realize that this is not it.
Katrina Azer:So what is more for you? How you define that more? How you how do you define purpose and infuse that into your career? So all of the things that we've pretty much touched on in this podcast are going to come together in this book, which I'm hoping to be released or to release it by the end of the year, but we'll see how we go. But this is pretty much why I'm not doing anything else now, but focusing on this big project because I wanted to bring the professional along and just elevate where pharmacists are at to get them out of where the, you know, the the frustrations that we're facing as a professional right now and the fears of being replaced by AI and so on.
Katrina Azer:So this is pretty big for me.
Justin Cole:Well, I'm excited to see the fruits of all of this labor when you release it. So keep up the great work. And again, we are excited, and I'm sure many, many people will benefit from it. So you mentioned AI. Let me ask you a question related to the future of healthcare here and maybe where you see it.
Justin Cole:I know that you're someone who likes to think in strategy, I want to pick your brain. So how do you see healthcare and maybe specifically the pharmacy profession changing over the next five to ten years, especially with the rise of AI? We have, of course, large language models, but agentic AI is on its way and already is out there. It's just growing. We also have digital health, and of course, we talked about precision medicine.
Justin Cole:But how do you see our profession evolving over the next few years?
Katrina Azer:Look, I hope that change does happen sooner than five years. But in my point of view, with the rate that we adopt things, like if you look at precision medicine, I honestly think it's more likely to be ten years. But I think or I'd hope that digital health and technology and AI will replace most of our mundane repetitive tasks to free up our time for human connection. I think as AI becomes more prevalent, especially agentic AI, I think pharmacists will be needed for their human skills. AI can't do that.
Katrina Azer:And I talked about that in our post, I think, a week or two ago is if you have missus Smith, you know, reaching out to you on a Friday night frustrated that he she hasn't got her meds or this is happening with her, AI is not gonna connect with her. You need a human. Right? So if I was a pharmacist, I'd certainly be focusing on mastering AI and how it works and how to use it because it's not until we understand where are its gaps and weaknesses that we can outperform it. So that's one thing.
Katrina Azer:The second thing is become so so good at what you do. I think an average pharmacist who doesn't use reason, who doesn't use a strategy, and doesn't excel in communication is actually risking becoming obsolete. So I think pharmacists that want to stand the storm are not the ones that just put their head down and dispense and can pills because their job, whether it's, you know, out of adoption, early adoption, or out of necessity because, you know, all you're hearing at the moment is less and less pharmacists coming through the doors through universities. It's not becoming a a huge career option, although I think there is a lot we can do as a profession to change that. But as we're hearing those statistics, I think we out of necessity, we will be forced to adopt automation to replace the mundane repetitive rules of a pharmacist so we can focus on what matters most, which is our clinical skill sets.
Katrina Azer:And if we also look consider the fact that we've got pharmacy desserts, pharmacists pharmacies closing down, I think the model of the future personally is or the solution to this crisis is telepharmacists or virtual pharmacists combined with medication depots or medication collection depots. Because, you know, patients still need access to medications. Right? So the logical thing to do would be give them the access to medications, but connect them with a pharmacist who can tell them all about it. And this is my, at least from my point of view, my solution to this.
Katrina Azer:And I think pharmacists need to also get out of their heads and think there are several ways that you can serve patients. You know, I've I've worked as a telehealth pharmacist, body medication management and everything, you know, all virtual services that a pharmacist would apart from dispensing. And I think it is totally possible. Think more and more pharmacists need to recognize that this is a way you can serve patients. You don't need to be in a in a building.
Katrina Azer:You don't need to be in a specific space. You can serve patients from anywhere. And, you know, wouldn't it be amazing if patients had that access to pharmacists globally? Like, you just can pick up a phone and just talk to a pharmacist and ask them about medication, you know, instead of overdosing, instead of taking the wrong medication, instead of being stuck, you know, waiting for a doctor who is not available. I mean, we have a lot of potential to tap into here.
Katrina Azer:And I think this is where also I think education plays a very important part. You know, how are universities changing the mindset of the pharmacists coming through the curriculum, through changing their way of thinking, you know, teaching them about innovation, teaching them about possibilities, teaching them that you are not defined by building, you're not defined by credentials, you're not you know, you can serve patients from anywhere. I think we need to get that in the heads of pharmacists coming through the doors because they are the future of their profession. They are the ones to drive the innovation. They are the ones that are going to be controlling AI, whether they like it or not because AI doesn't well, hopefully, at this point, it's not operating on its own accord.
Katrina Azer:Right? It needs a human to kind of direct it. And so I think pharmacists who are in health care and the health care space need to to, as I said before, educate themselves about AI and know its weaknesses so that they know how to get the best user out of it. Because I honestly think all the clinical knowledge that we have now, like, know universities or most of them, I have been I've done postgraduate in the last, you know, five or six years. The way that we just squish information in people's heads, there's gonna be no need for that anyway.
Katrina Azer:And that's all gonna be obliterated. You're not going to need to remember all those things. AI is going to take all of that for you. So I think it's really important to know to to learn what are the tasks here that AI cannot capitalise on. And I think it's human connection, giving people agency and control over their health, empowering patients, and also big picture thinking.
Katrina Azer:You know, if you have a patient who came into hospital five weeks ago because they had another health condition, AI is not necessarily going to remember that or it may in the future. But right now, its memory is not great. Or put the pieces of the puzzle for this patient together. Oh, yeah. You came in the other day about this.
Katrina Azer:Now I remember that. And your challenge was that you couldn't remember blah blah blah. You know, putting that story creating ability is not gonna exist with AI. I personally think it'll take a lot of effort to put all of that information together. I think that's what pharmacists need to harness and leverage is, you know, focus on your communication skills, focus on your clinical skills and big picture thinking in the clinic.
Katrina Azer:You know, what matters to this patient most and how can you get them to the destination that they need to be at?
Justin Cole:Well, Katrina, let me just encourage you. I think the future is bright for our profession. Here's why I said that. Here at Cedarville University, we've recently had a pharmacy camp here for high school students that are interested in learning more about the profession. And so today, I had the privilege of doing a little innovation sprint with them.
Justin Cole:So they are presented with some common problems that we see across the whole medication use system, about 25 of them, they worked in groups and they could pick. Two of the groups actually picked pharmacy deserts. Yeah, it's a big task to try to create some solutions for that in a short time. But one of the groups selected something that was very similar to your model. So I I think the future is bright.
Justin Cole:Yes.
Katrina Azer:That's awesome.
Justin Cole:It is. And I will say one other thing that I I think pharmacy education does need to adopt it or at least move toward. You're right that the corpus of knowledge that we need to know, especially on all the various facts related to drug therapy, it is and is going to further be captured with technology. We need pharmacists who are competent to understand it and sort through it, but more importantly, we need them to be competent in the humanistic aspects of their role, not just the knowledge. And if university in Australasia is similar to the US, we very much focused on knowledge within our education.
Justin Cole:Right? But here at Cedarville, one of the things I'm excited about is we're moving to not a full competency based education model, but very much entrenched in that in most of our classes, where we're more concerned about making sure that you are competent in those skills, and also in the requisite knowledge, rather than just giving a grade for your knowledge on a test. And so the future is bright, and I I think we have some opportunity before us, and I wholeheartedly agree with a lot of your suggestions there. Well, as we wind down, Katrina, I wanna ask, you've got your book, but what else is next for Katrina Azer? Is there a legacy that you hope to leave in pharmacy and the health care space?
Katrina Azer:Look, I want every pharmacist to really like, this is a message I delivered through a lot of my content to know that there is more to you beyond your white coat. Like, to build their career on the right foundation, to climb the right mountain, which is a mountain of faith and surrender. And it's taking me some time when I say, sorry, God. It's taken me so long to get the message. But, you know, just to know that they have a calling and talents to offer to the world, whether it's within pharmacy or outside pharmacy, and to just seek first in everything they do the kingdom of God, and all else will be given to them.
Katrina Azer:So I've had so so so many life and career hardships, but it's when you rely on your own understanding, when you veer off the path of faith and surrender that God sends the lesson. So you surrender and get back to him. So I know a lot of pharmacists out there would be feeling careers you know, having career struggles, but just surrender to God, put faith front and center, seek first him, and your career will flourish. As I said earlier, in everything I've done, it's all been accidental, but I've tried my best to put God front and center and tell him to lead me into the direction he wants me to be at, and it's never failed me. So if you do that and if you chase your calling and tap into that dream that the creator has dreamed when he made up the cells that made up you, I am sure you're gonna get to heights in your career.
Katrina Azer:Just build it on him as a foundation. Build it on the fact that you are you are or you practice pharmacy. I don't even like to say I am a pharmacist anymore. Not because I hate it, but because we identify so much with our identity as pharmacists. We forget that we're moms, we are, you know, we're creatives, we're artists, we're podcasters, We're writers.
Katrina Azer:We have so much more to us than just that identity found in pharmacy. We our identity needs to be first found in God, secondly found in us as creatives, as talent pursuers, and as health care practitioners. So build it on that foundation, chase curiosity, and you're not going to fail. And, you know, my purpose, as I said earlier, is to help pharmacists get you know, make the most of their lives to fulfill their highest truest expressions and to lead them on that journey by being hopefully a good example and through my writing and storytelling. And I'd love everybody to, you know, follow the journey on social media.
Katrina Azer:I'm there on LinkedIn, and I'd love people to reach out and connect in whatever way they want to. So
Justin Cole:Well, Katrina, it does certainly feel like many of our lives, many aspects of our lives are accidental, and yet you've reminded us that there's actually a purpose behind it and you can trust the one that writes it. So that's great. You mentioned LinkedIn. Where else can our listeners go to learn a little bit more about who you are and the work that you're doing?
Katrina Azer:They can go to katrinaazer.com. So I do have a website, which I'm updating at the moment, to put in a link for them to join my book journey. I guess something that I did miss telling you is I will be heading overseas as part of my creative journey to be inspired to keep writing awesome content in my book and in social media. I'm taking a wee breakaway as part of my breakaway from pharmacy for the next few months and heading out to Europe and also hopefully be attending the International Pharmaceutical Federation Conference in Denmark. So I will be posting a lot of content online LinkedIn about the journey, what it's teaching me about purpose driven careers, about motivation, about finding ourselves beyond our careers, and just taking the time off to replenish our energy stores and creative minds.
Katrina Azer:And so that's why they can find me on LinkedIn, but also on katrina ezer dot com and subscribe to the newsletter because I'll be sharing the journey on there as well. So it would be lovely to get more people on board with it.
Justin Cole:Absolutely. Well, we're happy to be a part of sharing the word about what you're doing. So, Katrina, it has been an absolute blessing and pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thanks for taking your time to join us from a day ahead and the other side of the world.
Katrina Azer:Yes. The future is bright because it's Friday here and it's looking fantastic. So thank you so much for the opportunity to be here, Justin. It's been a pleasure, and I really hope that if anything, listeners gain out of this podcast is just to be empowered and inspired and to know that pharmacy is a brilliant career, and I look forward to connecting with them on social media.
Justin Cole:You have been listening to Disrupt, a podcast from the Cedarville University Center for Pharmacy Innovation. If you enjoyed listening today, please subscribe and share this podcast with others. Thanks for listening.