Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
These are short, powerful, and focused 5-10 minute episodes designed for busy educators who want quick insights into:
✅ Virtual Reality in Education
✅ Exciting Trends in EdTech
✅ Game-Changing Tools for Quality Instruction
In just a few minutes, you’ll gain actionable insights into how VR and emerging technologies are transforming learning—no fluff, just the good stuff!
🔥 Want to be featured? If you’re an edtech innovator, VR developer, or education leader, let’s connect! I’d love to showcase your work.
Shannon: Yello and welcome into the pop.
I've got something special for you guys.
It is incredibly special.
It is the return of the Mack, the man, the myth, the legend himself, Mr. Dave Dolan has offered to come back into the pop for another spirited conversation about immersive learning, and I could not be more excited.
Dave, how are you?
Dave Dolan: Well, I'm great after an intro like that.
Like who wouldn't love that?
So it is great to be back, and I loved the conversation we had before, and I can just see that carrying on now.
Shannon: Absolutely.
And I love talking with you because even though we actually agree on a lot more things than I think we thought we would, but I like people that are willing to challenge the status quo or challenge like me.
You know, I don't-- I mean, granted, you know, I'd like things to be easy in some ways, but in, in others it's like if we don't ever change anything up, then nothing's gonna change.
And that takes serious questions and sometimes uncomfortable conversations that people don't wanna have, and I'm excited to have those with you.
Dave Dolan: Great.
Yeah, I mean, I'm here for it.
So I'm just I'm-- Even when you said we might disagree, I'm just getting a little bit concerned what we're gonna be talking about, but let's see where we get.
Shannon: It was, I was probably more of like, the Bills gonna win the Super Bowl.
That was probably, and I would say
Dave Dolan: of course they are.
Shannon: every-- Thank you, see?
Yes.
Let's go.
Dave Dolan: Go Josh.
Shannon: yes.
Oh, Dave, you're just making points upon points.
I love it.
Okay.
So one of the things that I feel that I know a lot of people kinda say, they say, "Oh, well, there's a teacher problem with VR because teachers have to accept the technology and that's the problem.
And if we can-- until we get teachers to accept it and everything, you know, it's not gonna be successful." Well, I felt with immersive learning that working with educators and convincing them that it's worth their time has been quite a challenge.
Have you seen that?
And if so, what do you think is holding educators back from kind of jumping in and exploring this technology?
Dave Dolan: Well, you know, I think that we being you and I, come from, you know, that place of being teachers for a long time and know what the reality is in the classroom, and it changes your view tremendously, right?
And I wrote a blog post a long time ago just about, about the word just, that it's a four-letter word in education.
Just set up the internet, just push the content, just manage the devices just.
And that's what the ed tech guys say, and that is a problem for teachers, right?
And what we have to understand is that there are really four major stakeholders when we get into VR in education.
There's the student, the teacher, admin, and the IT department, right?
And each one of these has to be satisfied.
And you've gone out and sold and you've brought VR all around, and the students are easy because they're all amazed by what you have, and they're very receptive, and that part is simple.
The next one are the teachers.
And in my experience the teachers just don't need more friction in their lives.
They've got enough to do.
Almost every single teacher I've talked to would love to have this, but they just don't wanna spend their weekends on, in learning how to use this and have to put a headset on, you
know, because of my makeup or hair or whatever it is or there's all kinds of reasons that they might not feel comfortable in leading this themselves but they all see the value of it.
So that, that has to be taken care of.
The IT department has to be understood.
These, you know, they can't be spending their weekends again in moving content and setting things up.
And admin's not afraid to spend money as long as they know that there is value and that there's a proper ROI and a proper return on that.
And so I think there's a lot less problem out there than we tend to think.
But I just don't think that if-- I've long said that if I was a teacher on that side and the options I've been given so far, I probably wouldn't have bought, right?
But but I would want it.
But don't lay everything on me, and that's about it.
Shannon: I think you make-- you bring up some fantastic points, and I like that just statement, and I'll probably be stealing it.
I will totally give credit, of course.
But
Dave Dolan: you always do, right?
Shannon: you're right.
Well, thank you.
The thing is that I think the-- there's a huge disconnect from what the industry thinks is the just and what actually is the just as well, too.
And a lot of the times they tell me, "Oh, well, you know, it's, oh it's just plug and play," or, "You just have to do this." And I'm like, "No, actually,
you have to do this, and this to even get to it." And they're like, "Oh, well, that's just…" And I-- now that you're saying it, I hear it so many times.
So how can we get…
Now, and just as a general question, not like when we're gonna get into, like, the device wars, which is gonna be super exciting, but, like, how can we get more so of external participants to understand what actually happens in the educational environment?
Like, do you think that's a… So 'cause some days I feel like it's a winning, it's a lose it's a lost cause.
Like, I just listen to people, and I'm like, "Yep, okay, that's what you think it's gonna be. I'm gonna have to work around that," whatever.
But do you think we can get the ed tech industry to understand what is actually needed f- you know, for these schools and for these educators to be successful with VR?
Dave Dolan: Well, it's gonna sound like, like I'm pandering right now, but a platform like this is wildly important, I think, because these are the conversations that I've had live, you know, face-to-face with teachers and administrators all over the world.
Now, I've been in classrooms in, in Korea, in South Africa, in, in Qatar, in, in Dubai, in India, Sri Lanka, you know, on and on, North America and Europe.
So I've been in classrooms, and they're all remarkably the same, right?
You know, you walk into a cl- cl-- You would feel comfortable in a classroom in South Africa.
You know, you walk in, you know, into Cape Town, you know, a high school there, and, "Hey, girls, how you doing?" And, you know, it's exactly the same vibe, right?
And they have the posters up on the wall doing photosynthesis and, you know, this is exactly a, you know, a school that I've been in Japan or in Canada, right?
So all exists and the-- but I do understand that the ed tech guys tend to have certain perceptions of what it is.
So these are the conversations that actually do happen, but the problem is that they don't get broadcast, you know?
And so this is why something like this a good, honest conversation is what's desperately needed, right?
And do we change the perception from the people on the, let's say, the hardware side, right?
I don't think so.
You know, there, there's gonna be-- They always, they hire in an educator to run the education part of their, you know, right?
But, Boy, I wish people could see your eye roll right now, right?
You can have the--
Shannon: why I don't have it,
Dave Dolan: don't have a camera on, right?
You know.
So I do think that they make these kind of idea, like they, they do have the perception that, okay, we need to connect more with education.
The problem is the eye roll showed me that you've had the same experience, that the ones that they maybe bring in aren't ones with a lot of experience, aren't the ones that, you know…
when I wrote that article about Just, I often have written about my fictional teacher, Mrs. Applebaum, right?
You know, 60 years old, you know, she's been a teacher for a long time.
She just got email last, you know, last month, so she's feeling kind of technical, right?
You know, but she is the one, she is my star teacher, right?
I know you've talked before about the other te- my counterpart to Mrs. Applebaum is Josh, right?
Josh is 29 years old, just out of uni, right?
You know, and he's gung-ho about, you know, iPads and 3D printers and, you know, robotics and everything else, right?
And he's willing to spend his weekend working on this because he loves it.
So he's the champion teacher.
And the problem is that a lot of places sell to the champion teacher, right?
And I think that is a huge problem, right?
Because the majority of schools you've been in, right, and I've been in and been connected with, you always have one or two champion teachers, and you've got 25 or 30 others, right?
You know?
And I think the others are the ones that will find the most value in this, or will find the most use will actually bring it into the classroom, and they're the ones that we have to take care of, right?
But if we don't take care of them, if we're only taking care of that champion teacher, we're missing the boat.
And I think that's where most of the companies have put their energy into.
Shannon: Absolutely.
Especially because that champion teacher always ends up leaving or something, and then nobody ever picks up the reins.
Like
Dave Dolan: That's what happened in Estonia, right?
So in Estonia they had a rollout of 1,200 gaming and entertainment devices, right?
Okay.
Shannon: Wonderfully done
Dave Dolan: Okay.
I'll-- I did tell Shannon that I'd be careful about not naming companies, so we can just use your imagination on who I'm talking about.
But they had a rollout of 1,200 devices, really nice devices, right?
But the problem was that there was one champion teacher taking care of around to these different school boards and, you know, running
around, and I think you understand this, is that trying to hook things up and get them going, and very passionate about what she did.
And the problem was that she ended up leaving the school, and she-- I think she left the area and she went to a place where there was no devices or there were no devices.
I know you'll be checking me on my English but there were no d- devices.
And so the other places, they all went dormant, and they collected dust, and people said, "See? There we are," right?
"You buy these things, but then they end up in the closet."
Shannon: Absolutely.
And I know that very well, and I know when it's not supported in the way that it needs to be.
And when you tell people the way that it needs to be, it-- you can predict the exact outcome, and they still don't…
Dave Dolan: Updates is the other four-letter
Shannon: Yes, sir.
Dave Dolan: me just make one note about that, right?
Is that updates are only for devices that are for gaming and entertainment.
So keep that in mind.
They're not a part of the system, right?
If it's an education, right, device.
So they're only for gaming and entertainment devices.
So the moment that the IT department says, "Okay, yeah, what about updates?
What about patches?
What about…" The answer should be, "I'm not too sure what you're talking about because I have an education device.
You're talking about a gaming device, right?" Anyway,
Shannon: 'cause, because it is, and that's what is constantly changing.
And so when we talk about that in the big vision, 'cause now you've kind of-- that was a perfect segue you didn't even know.
But when you're talking about a gaming device versus an education device, like what do you think we actually want?
And I say we meaning like I believe we're champions for this 'cause we believe in this.
So what is it that we actually want VR in education to be?
Not like what the vendors are selling, not what the companies are saying or, you know, the flashy headlines on LinkedIn that get all the reposts and, "Oh, what a great use case this is.
You're so amazing." Like what do we actually want this to be and how do we want it to run,
Dave Dolan: Okay.
So you might say-- it might sound odd for me, but I, I-- you could probably boil this down to one word, and that word would be boring, right?
And because VR is absolutely necessary in the educational process.
You would agree with me on that, right?
'Cause it's the most effective way to capture attention to remove distraction, to remove judgment, to create real understanding.
It's a wonderful device like that.
I'm old enough that I remember when the calculator came into classes.
So that was in 1978, and I'm in school, and the calculator was controversial, right?
Because you know, it was thought that teachers were worried that students wouldn't really understand numbers.
Parents were worried about dependency.
Students like myself were just, you know, we kinda felt like we were cheating, right?
You know, 'cause you just punch in these numbers and they magically give you the answer.
But very soon I think we both, you know, agree that the calculator is quite boring.
It just, it sits on the desk and you can just pick it up and use it as you need it.
And the thing with the calculator is that it didn't replace all of these other problems.
All it did was that it, it took away a lot of the rote things that we had to do, right?
But we-- it allowed us to dig deeper into other areas, right?
And so it just became a simple tool, and I think that's what VR should be as well, right?
So I've been in VR in education for 10 years now, right?
And the goal really isn't transformation, right?
The goal is utility, right?
When you don't understand something as a student, you should be able to just go over, pick up the VR device, and immerse yourself in that, right?
It can be biology, but it can also be financial literacy, you know, debit and credit, right?
You're locking in the learning, and that allows for higher order thinking skills to happen.
You should just very simply pick it up and use it, right?
So that's what I think it should be, and it can be.
And that's, you know, when we've talked before, you said, "Well, how do you see it in 10 years?" You know, like, right?
That's what it can be today, right?
You know, we don't have to wait 10 years for that.
But the problem is that if you're going through certain devices, that won't happen, right?
And you're simply taking it away the ability for that reality to become, you know, what schools are like.
Shannon: And I love that analogy too with the calc- calculator because A, it was, well, you're not gonna have one in your pock- back pocket.
And even when we did get calculators, it was, well, you're not gonna have one in your back pocket.
Now we got phones.
And I think teachers even too at the time were like, "Well, if they've got a calculator, why do they even need a teacher?"
And it's always this feeling that we're gonna be replaced and we're gonna be replaced and that debate is still happening.
Like, there are still schools that are like dead set against teaching fluency in like math
Dave Dolan: That's the whole thing is that debate was very violent at the time, right?
You know, you had PTA meetings, you had everything else.
Like, you know, you can't have this because the slide rule cal- you know, is what you need, right?
And, you know, or the abacus, right?
You know, that's the way forward.
Now, in-- I live in Japan, and you still have abacus classes.
You know, there are still students that go and do abacus because it's good for the mind, right?
And it's great for… Okay.
It doesn't erase everything.
All it does is having the calculator, which we all carry right now in our phones, right?
You know, there, it's with us all the time.
It just takes that simple error away and allows us just to, to think more about, "Okay, I really, it really is costing that much to have a, phones,
Shannon: But it sure doesn't matter, like, what it is.
It's this, like I said, it's this fear.
Like, sometimes kids just need to know five times five is 25.
And also too, we have to-- I feel like it goes back to this is just instructional in general, whether it's tech or not.
Like, people, I think, focus on the wrong learning outcomes and, like, how we get there.
And especially, like, in special ed, I had this a ton of times, like, there'd be an activity we would do, and it was, you know, they had to cut the apples and put the certain amount of apples in the basket, and it was, like, counting.
Well, I cut them all out and had them all done.
They're like, "Well, they need to learn how to cut." I'm like, "Yeah, and during cutting time is when we will do that, but this is math time." And instead of having them spend 40 minutes cutting out some little paper apples, I'd rather them learn about math.
And so I think that happens with technology, is some people use it as a babysitter, some people use it as a replacement, and then others are like,
"Nope, that's not gonna… You know, no m- you know, no machine can teach better than I can." Like, it's not a failure or a reflection of the educator
Dave Dolan: No, and so I'll jump onto that just for a second because that's again the message every teacher to ev- you know you know, it-- One, you know,
back in 2016, '17, '18, you know, the question was "Will this replace me?" You know, and the answer at that time was, "Yeah, if you're a bad teacher.
It'll never replace me."
Okay.
You know, because, But listen and this, you know, I mentioned about the girls school in South Africa in Cape Town, right?
Because I was there.
So it was a girls school, and they did have the posters of photosynthesis up on the wall.
And I said to them, "Here, look at that.
I mean, you've studied about photosynthesis.
Everybody understands about it, you know, and you've probably watched a video and you've done these posters about it and everything else, right?
But here's the thing, is that you can teach 90% of that, but here's the 10% that I can add in.
I can take you girls into the plant, and I can take you inside of that, and that your teacher simply can't do that.
But that's something that helps close that connection between what you learned about stoma and chlorophyll, right?
Here's what the, here's what it actually looks like from the inside." And so they're amazed, and the teacher was as well, just that, "Okay, th-this isn't here to
replace me, but here's the extra that enhances what I can do, and it's very simple, and just in, in eight to 10 minutes, all of a sudden, boom, I understand," right?
It levels up that understanding.
And listen, that's all we're looking for.
And you know, you already said that you know, somebody might use it as babysitting.
Well, we had little Nikki in our class when I was young, right?
Nikki was the one always in trouble and always, you know.
Now, a teacher would have loved to put him on a headset and just, "Here just learn this thing and let me get on with the rest of my class," right?
I've got no problem with that.
You know, you can use it in that way.
You could have also Ruth.
Ruth was our brilliant student.
She's the one who accelerated grades, right?
And and you could have little Ruth in there as well to say, "Listen, you understand all this. I want you to go on to osmosis or into meiosis or into something else," right?
"I wanna keep you engaged as well," right?
And it just allows me as a teacher to say, "Just go and grab the calculator. Just go and grab the VR and just understand this thing better," right?
"I'm busy with everybody else," right?
Shannon: And that's okay.
Like, I think there's this, you know, like that is ab-- it is okay to be overwhelmed and have all these kids and larger class sizes and everything.
It's why I created X reps because you can put the kid on it and it's still educational content.
You know, it's not like a first-person zombie game or something like that, but it is gamified learning, which we also know is effective.
And it's okay to say that I need a minute to help this student and help this student, you know.
And maybe there's something that maybe Ruth is nailing, you know, photosynthesis, but she's horrible at introducing herself to new people.
So maybe there's something else, you know?
And always talking to an adult isn't the same thing as talking to a peer, and so we can't be everything for them.
So understanding that isn't a reflection on us, just the nature of how the world is
Dave Dolan: Yeah.
And as long as that's not adding a big kind of cost center to the school, right?
You know, okay, well that's all ni- that's all well and good, but listen, this is costing X number of dollars.
And, you know, when I break it down into, let's say, learning chunks, what exactly is the cost, right?
And so that's a good and natural question.
That's the thing that we should be answering all the time, right?
That, listen, this is what it means, is that, you know Face-to-face for me, you know, with let's say 30 students I've done the math and you know, like
I can tell you that in Germany, you know, that f- you know, the 15-minute chunk of learning, you know, from somebody is X number of dollars, right?
That-- And but then, you know, divided by 30, you know, you're getting down to about, let's say 87 cents or whatever it is, right?
And I have the math.
I don't have it with me right now, okay?
It's on my calculator, right?
So, but you have to actually be mindful of these because when you talk to admin, they need to know these numbers, right?
You know, what exactly are the, are, is the burden to me, right?
When you can break that down, now it makes sense to them.
It appeases what they need to know, and they go, "Oh my God, this is great. There's actually ROI to this," right?
Because just e-even in your time in teaching these other students, this is actually a cheaper way to take care of Ruth, right?
Take care of Nikki, right?
Or to get four or eight students off on the side to, to start learning about this while I, you know, work with these other students.
Here's a poster session over here.
Here's-- You guys are doing a bit of reading over at this part.
It helps me manage the class, right?
You know, and that kind of leads into one of the other issues with this is that some people have an idea that it should be everybody in the class doing the same thing, right?
And that becomes an issue because the only way to make that work is you have to be online because you have to share that out, right?
And that becomes a huge issue for most schools around the world.
And again we'll, we can dig into that if you want.
But it also becomes that I need to lead that as the teacher, and I need perfect connectivity because if there's even one device that's out, all of my attention goes there and everybody, hang on.
You know, he's having a problem with this." And it's always been a bizarre way of using it to me because, you know, as you know, the VR is a uniquely personal experience.
You're in there you're really connecting with exactly what you're doing.
If you're doing X reps, you think you're a football player and you th- you think you're throwing these balls and you do not care about your phone.
You don't care about anybody else.
You're not worried about peer judgment.
You're not worried about anything.
You're just in there.
You're experiencing this by yourself.
Now, why does that have to be pushed out to be a class-wide experience, right?
That each student is having their own experience.
And all that does is that the tech guys have all thought that, well, okay You know, this is great and I'm a genius, right?
You know.
And then it puts all the pressure and all the burden on the teacher because they have to run it.
They have to put the headset on, or I'll be the other genius that says no, you stream it onto your laptop and you can do it this way, and
everybody else is in their headset." There's so much burden on the teacher, and the costs are so high because you need 30 devices, right?
And if you get into a gaming device, right, it means you're gonna have this movement around, right?
So how do you-- You can't do it in the classroom now.
Now let's move to the gymnasium.
And I hate to see those pictures of, "Hey, look at, we had everybody.
We, we taped up the floor and we did all of these things with everybody.
Aren't we wonderful?" Well, the problem is there's not a chance at all.
I was gonna say something else.
There's not a chance at all that that's gonna translate into actual usage in the school, right?
Now it becomes that kind of premier event once a month that you can do, right?
And you need four or five teachers to come and help you out tape things up, and you're not helping people out, right?
And then the other people will say, "Well, put them in seats," right?
So, you know, now confine them to seats, but we're still gonna have this sicked off headset where we have this movement, but now we lock them into seats because we're worried about property damage and injury, right?
Which they should be, right?
And then the other ones in India, what they do is they sell them with beanbag chairs, right?
And so you see these kids using this thing and their necks are cr- you know, cocked all over the place and it just is bizarre.
I just don't, I don't get any of it.
Whereas I think you should just pick that device up, use it on your own, use it as a calculator.
It should be-- It should not be this wonderful new device, you know, in the classroom.
It should just be a calculator.
It should just be matter of fact, it's there.
I just don't understand, you know, I don't understand how hydroelectric power works.
I put that on.
Okay, turbine, that's what they're talking about with this.
Okay, I get it because I've been in a turbine now, right?
It's so easy to do, and those are the things that are available right now unless you're getting these gaming devices.
Shannon: And I think it's also-- I, like, I have ha- also had that conversation all the time too, because I think as, as fun as it was, you know, and that it got it
started with like Google Expeditions, you know, "Oh, look," you know, and they make this nice pretty package, and it comes in a case, and look, it does all the charging.
And I can see where they're looking, and I'm like, "Okay, you brought them to Mount Rushmore.
You don't think they're gonna look at it?
Like, what value is that giving you?" You know, and also that, but I literally just had this conversation with a previous guest that everyone was like,
"Well, when you know, 'cause if you don't do it like that, then, you know, they have to have the shared experience 'cause otherwise it's isolating."
And I'm like, "I've actually found the exact opposite." When I put kids in there, they were excited, and even if it was just one kid going and getting it, they wanted to show their peer and, like,
talk, and it created more authentic communication exchanges that I couldn't simulate or even stimulate because I'm not as exciting as what they were getting to do, even though I was pretty awesome.
And so I found that it actually increased communication.
And I had kids that, like, couldn't stand next to each other in line, that when we had VR and stuff, there was no issues.
There was no behavior problems.
They weren't fighting because they were focused on what they were doing and they were actually enjoying it
Dave Dolan: A- attention is the whole thing, right?
And right now, gaining attention and maintaining that attention is a problem in every school.
You have phones, you have all kinds of things going on, right?
And so why not have that isolating experience that somebody can absolutely get their mind into this and keep their-- keep focused concentration on one thing?
I don't get why you have to share every experience.
Now, a VR experience should be, you know, eight to 12 minutes, should be 15 minutes max, right?
You know, you're not looking at having students in there for an hour or two and, you know, maybe replace all your learning.
That doesn't make sense.
But those things that you just need quickly for somebody to be inside the body and seeing how the heart valve works and seeing oh, the left ventricle is doing this.
Okay, now I got it," and that's enough, right?
But it allows them to isolate in- into there be fully committed into that learning.
And when you have-- And you've just mentioned, I mean, you have open and excited learners, right?
And when you have an open and excited learner who's locked into something, that's when you get into higher order thinking skills, right?
You know, and you get into better cognition because you've re- you've taken out all of that student affect, right?
And you're actually just letting them get in there and learn.
I just think there's such value in that.
And as long as we do it in an economical way that makes perfect sense for schools, then there is no pushback.
I, I really don't find pushback at all, right?
But you have to have these conversations, and they're the conversations that are not happening with most places, let's say.
Shannon: And part of that conversation that isn't happening, you know, i- is what I've-- we call the device wars.
You know, it's not as good as the Cold Wars, but, you know, if Billy Joel makes a sequel to "We Didn't Start the Fire," maybe it'll be the device wars.
But it, you know, in that, so we've talked about, you know, gaming devices and you know, oh, we're gonna use these in education.
And, you know, I'm all for games, and I'm all for motivation in any way, whether it's VR or not.
So I'm not saying that's not a good use, 'cause I will use whatever I need to motivate my students.
However, that being said it needs to be done in like when we look at gamified learning, we look at like, you know, like Reflex Math.
That's a, you know, fluency program, and they play games, and they learn their, you know, fluency, whatever.
That's like different than just, you know, like Arizona Sunshine or something.
But when we talk about this and in these device wars, and so then when you're talking about that, and then now you have to have Wi-Fi dependency, not just to get updates, like you said, but some activities you have to be on the internet to do it.
And so then now that's going to cause more problems on the infrastructure.
And then we've got the social issues with, you know, what can be accessed and what can be found out.
And so what do you think is the-- are the-- what do you think are the questions that educators should actually be asking?
Because I don't even think they know what questions to ask because they don't have any idea what these devices are actually tracking or doing.
Dave Dolan: And that's the whole thing.
And I don't begrudge anybody for not understanding this, right?
They should-- You know, when we talk about three-DOF or six-DOF, or we talk about gaming versus education, we know what we're talking about, but there's no reason that a, that Mrs. Applebaum needs to understand all of this conversation, right?
But there's a problem in this because as teachers we try to get our students to think critically, right?
And we-- This is what we demand, but we really have to demand the same from ourselves, right?
So what are the motives and aspirations of a company selling to me is a reasonable question, right?
And so right now, the problem is that the main players in the market are tied to social media companies, okay?
Their currency is data.
This is exactly what they're after, right?
That's no s- it's no secret and it's no surprise.
I mean, we every-- and they're not hiding the fact, and that's fine.
So again, I don't begrudge them as well, right?
It doesn't mean that they're wrong.
It just means that they come from that lens, right?
But it also means that I don't need to play along, right?
And this becomes critical when thinking about student data, right?
Because, you know, there's-- When we go back in time a little bit you know, let's say there's certain platforms that, we would share our pictures of our, you know, our birthdays and, you know, I went to the Acropolis or, you know, and here's my picture, right?
You know, and then along came phones, right?
And now those, you know, they became a little bit tighter in, you know, connected with me because now it's location data that's getting shared and people know where I am exactly at this time and can see habits, you know, in this kind of way.
And the companies taking that could use that for advertising and, you know, all of a sudden I'm getting, you know, suitcases or, you know, ad- ads or whatever it is because they see that I'm traveling a lot.
The problem is that went from PCs to phones, which was a big jump, and but VR is an explosion.
And it is biometric data now.
You know, this is not about my habits.
This is now deeply about who I am, and it is a fingerprint, and it is very deep to who I am, and it could be used in ways that are towards my healthcare.
Maybe it can recognize that I have a bit of a shake or whatever it is that we have to understand that is really, I mean, ultimately valuable information about you that now this could be used towards targeted ads into whatever, right?
And that a company like that can be able to sell that into their social media platform to get more advertisers and, you know, make kajillions more money, right?
Now, I understand this, right?
And that should be a part of the conversation that I'm not saying that, you know, I-- You look at my camera, I have a couple of these devices in the back.
I've used all these devices, right?
So I've had teachers push back and say, "Well, you know, everybody's on social media anyways," right?
You know, which is deeply untrue, right?
You know, and This past week, we've seen a certain company being held, you know, with their feet to the fire where it's like child exploitation and things like this come out.
I'm not accusing anybody, right?
But these are the words I'm reading, you know?
And so do I want to collect data and move that into the social media company that, you know, maybe gives me $100 off or $200 off or $300 off a device, right?
You know, well, it's a cheaper device, so isn't that great?
That's where the problem is.
And you know that I've done some work on the background to try to figure out what the real costs are, right?
So I've made a little cost calculator to try to figure out what these are.
And what I've found, 'cause I kind of knew, let's say intuitively, that the cost wasn't really around the device itself, right?
The cost is really around the content, right?
And more, more importantly is the supervision of the content, right?
Not the content, of the devices, right?
So, if you have a device that requires that, you au- you automatically know that your costs go up significantly, right?
Now, it can be a wonderful device, and then it's not a, it's not a shot at the device because I have them and I can use that.
But I can't push that on into a learning environment when I know that there will be problems with it.
There's possible problems as far as the data, right?
I can't-- I don't wanna be connected with any of that, that in next year, two years, three years from now, we find out that, yeah, that data lives forever and, you know, and you happen to sell in your student data into this, right?
I'm-- I fear that, right?
You know?
And so if that device-- iPad also, people say, "Well, we have the workaround," is that now, you know, we have-- we're fencing that off
with other software, which means that, okay, now you've got an MDM solution, a mobile device management solution that walls us off.
So I'm adding more complexity, I'm adding more cost
Shannon: We're learning
Dave Dolan: I'm kind of tacitly recognizing that device is not for education because I now see that I have to wall it off to make it safe and to make it usable, right?
So the problem becomes that every solution just becomes more of a problem because, you know… So you really have to look at the complexity of what the, what's being offered.
Is the-- Is what I'm getting from this worth that complexity?
And that complexity always brings more cost, right?
So I'm not too sure if I've answered your question exactly, but I might have veered off a bit, but maybe you can set me straight here.
Shannon: Yeah, no, you did.
And I think it, it brings up a really good point, especially when you know, you said the MDM, and I love, you know, the one I use and shout out to Manage I'll give them their props.
But it also, I spend more of my time training educators just how to use that than the actual device.
So it's like you've got all these things you gotta learn first before you can even use the software, and it's like, you know, they, you know, they're like, "Oh, well, these are classroom
ready." And I'm like but they're not." And I think one of the telling things is even the companies know because, and I will say company names for this because it's relevant to the conversation.
I have been a big fan of Pico, but I've also been telling them for three years that they don't have enough content.
They have their enterprise headset, and they have their consumer headset, and guess what?
They don't cross.
So the things that you can get on the consumer headset, you can't get on the enterprise headset.
And so it's like you don't even have your gaming-- Like, you have your devices separate, and then now Meta's basically kind of done that with their Meta Horizon thing where they're
like, "Oh, here's 500 apps." Like, and it was like, "Oh, look at all this great stuff." And I'm like, just 'cause they give you 500 apps doesn't mean it's 500 apps of great stuff.
And it feels like more like play gaming.
And so now they kind of have gone to this, you know, education versus consumer, you know, type thing.
And they're like, "Well, if it's education, we don't…" And I've literally heard this, like, five times in the last week.
"If it's education, we don't wanna play games." Why?
And I'm like, that's somebody right there who I know has never been in an actual classroom
Dave Dolan: Yeah.
No, exactly.
And I'm with you.
I'm with you on that.
But the problem is that it's not about the gaming or whatever, but it's that how do you actually deliver those, right?
Now it's every device, and now it's maybe I need a credit card to go get that.
You're adding in all of this, you know.
It sounds like this is a wonderful solution but it's not, right?
Because there's no proper way of rollout onto, let's say a wide number of devices.
You asked me at the beginning, and I'll just jump back because I think it's relevant, is that w- what do I want?
What, you know, what do I hope to see?
You know, it should be-- these devices should be as simple as the calculator sitting in schools, right?
And ideally, well, what about number of devices?
I think that there should be one device for every 10 students.
So if you have a school of 500 students, you should have about 50 devices, somewhere around that, right?
That would be ideal.
They could be parked in different classrooms.
You could be able to pick that up and just use it, right?
The problem is that when, you know, what you talk about the 500 apps or the games or whatever, there's no way to make s- you know, to really properly take care of those devices unless you have this other solution.
And listen, I know the people at those companies that make that solution.
I've known these guys for years, right?
The two main ones.
I'm, again, not gonna name names, but the two main ones.
And they're wonderful people.
They're very smart guys, you know.
They're really good at what they do, right?
I've got no issue with these guys at all.
They're trying to solve a problem that exists because the hardware can't take care of itself, right?
And so, again, I don't begrudge these people, but you have to really think this out to how this is gonna be actually used.
So when you get into Kenya, you get into Sierra Leone and Peru and Mexico and all of these countries that have issues with connectivity you've got major problems because now you're connection- connected only.
And when you get into countries like Japan and Canada and the United States, you have a problem with connectivity, right?
And this is the problem that people say, "No, I understand what you meant about Kenya, but what are you talking about Japan?" Right?
The reality is that the school infrastructure is not always the greatest, right?
They all-- And I remember years ago, I was in China, and every conversation starts out with you know, "So Dave, you know, you don't understand," right?
"So Dave, you don't understand 95% of schools in China are connected to the internet," right?
And I said, "That's great. 100% are in Canada, but that's not even the issue," right?
I understand that they're connected to the internet.
And when you're doing, you know, let's say the LMS and you've got little bits of data going back and forth, that's not an issue.
VR content is inherently big and heavy, right?
And so now you're talking about moving these heavy pieces around, right?
That's a very different world.
And when you're just doing it as a demo or a pilot and you've got one device or two or three devices, you've got-- you don't have a problem.
But I've been in places where they've had, you know-- I delivered a product into a school in Montreal, 48 devices, and content worked perfectly, LMS worked perfectly, everything was great.
The problem was the device, right?
And content played beautifully on the device.
Everything worked perfectly, but that's only part of the problem.
The problem becomes how it manages the content on the device or off, and how it gets moved back and forth.
And that's where the reality of the problem is, and it's not just, well, we have internet, right?
And one thing is that when I talk, I really talk about worldwide.
I just think that I'm not locked into one country or two countries.
So we have to understand that 87% of the world is not a first world country, right?
So if you wanna have a VR solution, and I wa- and I think that a school in Sierra Le- I've delivered into Kenya, right?
You know, and, you know, absolutely, it doesn't mean that a private school in Switzerland is the only pers- the only, you know, place that can get this kind of con- this kind of solution, right?
It really can and should be in every single school in the world, right?
And there's no reason they can't be.
And if you say, "Well, because of money," no.
I can show you how that's not an issue, right?
About the burden on the teacher, no.
I can show you how that's not an issue, right?
So that's my rant.
Okay.
Shannon: No, but it's true.
And then I feel like that there's-- we have to talk about the, you know, the inequities in it.
And I mean, I work-- I literally was just in a school last week in Eastern Kentucky, and it's one of my favorite schools, and I love going there.
But the entire time I'm there, my own cell phone is in SOS, and I can't even get, like, just general text messages or anything.
And so I have to put up a message, "I'm at a school," you know, whatever, so people don't think I'm ignoring this, that, and the other.
And that's just a normal school, and that's just, like, my phone, and that's here in, you know, good old US of A. And so, you know,
and then it, it also then leads to the, I think the risk reward where it's like, you know, people are like, "Well, Dave," you know.
And I wanted to kinda get your opinion on this too, 'cause it, it's a little off topic, but it kinda goes with what we've been talking about.
So I've had a lot of people tell me in the industry, you know, they're like, "Well, the kids are just so excited to have a headset that they don't care about graphics and blah, blah, blah."
And I see a lot of low poly, non-Minecraft type low poly Roblox type things, and I think it's the exact opposite 'cause these kids have grown up with like PlayStation 3 and 4 and Call of Duty and these things.
And when they see something, even if it's on their head they're out.
They're like, "This is cheesy."
So like what is your opinion on-- And then that's an even bigger lift though, if you have better graphics, that means a higher lift on the technology.
But what do you think about like the experiences that people are making?
Dave Dolan: See that's the issue, right?
You know, and that, that is a good proper issue to me.
You know, like there's this device wars thing, you know, to me is kind of put to bed.
You have education devices, you have non-education and it really is pretty clear.
It's not clear to most people, but it's clear to me, right?
But the graphical quality, right?
You know, that becomes where if you're making a proper solution, you have to kind of You know, thread that needle, right?
Because I can ma-- You know, I've made content since 2016, so I've been all over the map on that one, right?
So I know how to make for Six Off and wonderful, right?
But it's heavy, right?
You know, and it's expensive to make, right?
You know, it's getting cheaper now with live coding and AI and everything else.
It's really cut down the burden on our side of creators, right?
But in,
Shannon: not a 99 cent app.
Dave Dolan: Yeah, exactly, right?
You know?
Right.
And and so it has been expensive in, you know, to be able to make, right?
And so, and the way that VR's been sold into schools has been kind of the expensive side as well, right?
You know, because 30 headsets or this gaming device or everything else, right?
That it, it carries a lot of cost with it.
So the real answer to that for me is that's where it becomes incumbent upon the creator to understand everything about the, that entire thing because it, VR especially is a puzzle, right?
You know, you need the right hardware to work with the content.
You need the right, enough of the content to justify getting that hardware.
You need to make sure it's offline as best you can to make sure that it can be used everywhere, right?
You need to be cost-effect- Like, all of these things have to work in together, and so I personally will sacrifice some of the graphical quality to make sure
I've got enough bulk of things in there for people to do, and not just, "Here's a picture," and look around and, you know, okay, here's the Statue of Liberty.
Okay, that's great.
I can look around and I'm fine for a minute like that, but that's it, right?
There actually has to be real learning in there.
You know, to me real content means the word count basically, right?
That's an easy way to go, right?
If you've got 500 words of content or 1,000 words of content, you have actual content.
If you have a picture, you don't have content, right?
You know.
And so, so that's where, you know, there are certain there's certain things you have to kind of put up with or allow, right?
And so graphical quality cannot be down at the bottom, right?
You know, and you're right in that.
I mean, I'm not looking at, you know, Minecraft or whatever it is, right?
And it can't be blocky so that it's making somebody sick, you know?
So that's where You need a headset that is not the cheapest headset out there because then it becomes, there's latency problems and it blows, you know, all of the the whole thing out of the water, right?
When you start-- it starts lagging and you just, you don't wanna be in there, right?
So you need a headset that is a good quality, and you need content that you can kind of bring the quality down enough that, okay, it's not 8K, but it's 4K, okay?
Or it's not 4K, it's 2.5K and you're okay, right?
And you're still… and that's where on the creation side if you're doing a real proper solution, you'll trade off the parts where maybe it's not photorealistic, right?
You know, like maybe the jar, you know.
Because I, I wanna be able to maybe twist off the cap of the jar to be able to add the chemicals in, you know, or to work with the beaker.
The beaker doesn't need to be photorealistic, but it needs to be, like, look like a beaker, right?
But there's certain places, like if you get into, you know, this is Niagara Falls, you can't have that be a created scene.
It has to be a film scene, right?
You know, and because there's, there are certain places where you give up certain… You give up space on the headset.
I run into this all the time, right?
You know, I have a I have some wonderful things from Wild Immersion, right?
You know, and they, beautiful you know, scenes of the savanna in Africa and, you know, under the water.
They're fantastic and I could fill up a, an entire headset with that, but I would only be able to have their content and nothing else, right?
If I had it in the highest quality, right?
So I have to bring the quality down that it's still at an acceptable level But still looking good, right?
So again, I think I got into a long answer on a simple question but that's where the trade-off has to happen.
It shouldn't be on the hardware side because I'm trading off student data, let's say, for the ability to do, you know, these certain actions, right?
there are certain things that, that I do understand that some devices don't take care of well.
Maybe if I don't have hand tracking, I might not have a very good welding, you know, module or maybe doing surgery or jewelry making, right?
Those are things where-- that you might want the hand tracking to be there, right?
And so I get that 100%, but that's-- when you look at the numbers again, that accounts for about 3% of your learning, right?
When you actually dig into the numbers on s-students, what they learn how many become surgeons, you know, I can tell you in a school of 500, there's about 0.5% to 1% of students will become a surgeon, okay?
That's just based on, on, you know, numbers around the world, right?
So we know that data.
Now, I can't change my entire system for that 0.1% of, you know, of that students that are actually gonna be doing that, right?
So, you know, I've gotta worry about the 97%, right?
And the 3% will need s- maybe a different solution than I presently come out with, right?
But again, those are where the conversations are, you know.
And there are wonderful companies, you know, like a company called Nimbus out of France that does absolutely wonderful things on welding, car painting, and those vocational training things.
It's a wonderful guy, very smart people and everything else, and they'll take good care of you, but they're working specifically on those hand tracking things.
And there is a need for that.
There's a desire for that.
There's a, you know… That is a good thing.
My, my concern, like I said, are the 97% that don't need that, right?
Shannon: Mm-hmm.
And I've had Laurent in on the pop, so, I know exactly what you're saying.
And I do also agree that it-- I think another problem that we are having too is everybody's trying to make something that is-- that works for everybody, and that's never going to happen, and we
need to stop trying to do that too because it's okay if that one person that's the surgeon, like if they do a VR experience and, you know, the graphics are a little bit lower, that's still okay.
And so, you know, like, and just 'cause it's lower graphics doesn't mean bad either.
I think it's more a thought, like how we've had the conversation about is it's content or is it not?
Like it's a picture, but that's not content, you know?
And I mean, you look at like-- And then if you do look at, you know, like Gorilla Tag, like widely successful game and hardly anything, you know, hardly any graphics, like any of that kind of stuff and it took off.
So you never know, like what's gonna actually hit, but it needs to be purposeful, and that's the difference.
And I think people
Dave Dolan: you had to take one word, yeah, purposeful is a great one, right?
Boring and purposeful.
Okay, how about that?
Okay.
And cheap,
Shannon: Yes.
And even little decisions can make a big difference in VR because, like, if you're, you know, playing a game, like, on their, you know, on their tablet or on their Chromebook or something, they're using a mouse, it might not be a big deal.
But then when you go and you put it in VR and, like, there was one I saw and it was-- forgot what it was, but it was a classroom or there was some sort
of setting, and there was a wastepaper basket, and there was balls of, you know, crinkled up paper, and they were on the ground and some were in it.
Every kid went over and wanted to pick up the paper balls, the crushed up paper, and wanted to throw them, every single one of them.
And you couldn't, that wasn't interactive.
And they were like, "Why do they keep doing that?" I'm like, "Because it's there."
Dave Dolan: Yeah, exactly
Shannon: course, they're going to want to go over there and pick that up and try to throw it.
And COVID.
I mean, that's what kids do.
So either ha- make it have a reason.
Dave Dolan: me too." Exactly.
Shannon: I would t- I would too.
That's how I know what kids are gonna do, because I do exactly what kids do.
That's how I always know what they're gonna do.
They're like, "How do you always know when we're gonna do something?" I'm like, "'Cause I would've done it.
I was that kid." So I think it also needs to be purposeful and meaningful.
And then two, just like any industry, I think there's people that come in, make a splash, try to make a bu- as much money as they can and get out.
And I think those of us that are still hanging on, right, for a year, we hear that, "Oh, VR is dead. VR is dead," blah, blah, like, whatever.
Like, we're like, "No, it's not."
It's just how, as a society, we're using it.
And as we're kinda coming towards the end, I did wanna ask you, this is a little bit different, but kind of along the same thing.
I wanna get your opinion, 'cause we haven't actually talked about this yet so this is a nice little surprise chat.
But I've always said the industry tries to go to the next big thing.
First it was the standalone, and then once we got the standalone, it was two controllers, and then it was hand tracking, and then it was pass through.
Every- but everything now is big old hype about the AR glasses, and that's the big hype that everybody's talking about.
Me personally, I think there will be good things.
I don't think it's anywhere near where it-- people think it is yet.
I also think it's kind of funny that for the last how many years, whether it's VR or not, I've heard about, "Oh, we gotta limit screen time.
We gotta limit screen time," and, "Oh, VR is so dangerous, it puts the screen right up at their eyes," and now we want people to wear a heads-up display the entire day.
And so that, like-- What do you, what's your kind of whole take on the big glasses boom that we're kind of seeing?
Dave Dolan: The glasses or AI, which or both?
Shannon: Well, the AR glasses and then in general, and then they obviously have the AI, you know, built into it.
But like everybody sees, and I'll say this one too, they're like, oh, they see the Meta commercial, like, "Give me the Meta Ray-Bans." Like, they're not doing what they say they can, first off.
But they'll get there.
But I feel like it's just running to the next big thing, and everybody's now putting all their money into AR glasses.
And I'm leery
Dave Dolan: I, well, I'll follow you on being leery, okay?
I was in the Philippines a couple weeks ago, so I was at Wills 2026.
We were-- That's where we met, Wills 2025, okay?
Shannon: don't have to come to you
Dave Dolan: So this one we missed you, okay, in in the Philippines this year, but next year I hope you'll be
Shannon: 20:27, I better be there.
Dave Dolan: Japan, okay?
It, back in Kyoto, okay?
So that's great.
I'm expecting you to be here and bring your pickleball paddle with you as
Shannon: Yes, sir.
Dave Dolan: We'll play some, okay, when you get here.
Shannon: right.
Dave Dolan: And so back to the glasses, okay?
So there was a vendor there, and again, I won't name names, but there was a vendor at the event and showing the glasses.
So of course I tried the glasses, which was interesting.
And you know, they're… it feels like 2016 VR, right?
You know?
And so you had certain promises and people going, "Oh my God, I can do this and this," and yeah, you can do it like this on these glasses," and it actually has kind of color on these glasses, and it has…
But what's available isn't isn't ready right now as far as I'm concerned.
But it's interesting to see.
It's nice when you can do something like if I was wearing the glasses, I could have a teleprompter on here, and I could just read that as I'm talking to you, right?
There's all kinds of things.
And being in Japan, my Japanese is not good.
It'd be great you know, automatic translation and, you know.
So the- I can see these kind of wonderful things there.
The vendor was promoting how this is, you know, now it makes you smart and now it's this and now it's that, right?
Which wasn't the reality.
It was fine for when he was using it, and when I put it onto somebody else, it was like, "Well, how do I get the… How do I do this? How do I do that?" And then, you know, what are the costs?
And again, this is like the VR discussion 10 years ago.
Well, the cost is a headset, right?
Well, no, it isn't.
Okay.
The cost is actually these other things.
And so, okay, if you're gonna be on, you're gonna have to be online with this, right?
Yeah.
And well, it'll use your data on your phone, so that's how it do.
So what's… Well, yeah, but you know, people are paying for data anyways, right?
Just like everybody's on social media anyway.
No it's not the true thing.
So… And when you actually got into questions it was, "Okay, this is great.
So how long…" You know, "Oh, you could watch a movie and you can do this and you can do that." "So how long will it work?" "Well, actually about an hour to two hours if you're really using it," right?
So, okay, that's another thing, right?
Is that, right, you know, there's no longevity in these things.
They're constantly being developed.
What happens to the data?
Because the data, you know-- Well, I think they have like four different AI on here.
And okay, the natural question to me was: How does it get used?
Where does the data go?
How much is the actual cost?
And the problem was that there were a lot of those questions they couldn't answer, right?
Because the problem for me with AI right now is that I use AI every day.
Like, I've got no issue with it, you know.
And, but I don't deliver that out in VR, right?
And the reason is that AI is still hallucinating.
So I still go in and I go, "Really, 104? No, there should be 108," right?
And, you know, no, you're wrong." And then, you know, check it over again. "Oh yeah, you're right.
I missed on that one," right?
And so I'm constantly doing that, and it still is amazing tool.
But I can't-- I'm worried about bringing that out to students and delivering that because I have no control over that, right?
The costs, we don't know.
They're unmanageably low right now, you know.
So every company's losing a ton of money, right?
So we know that the costs are gonna go up on this, right?
They have to, right?
And right now the benefit to the companies that are charging, you know, 20 bucks a month or whatever it is that we're training the company.
You know, so they're using our data to train.
So can I really sell student data into there with their personal problems and everything else into here to, to train the, you know, the models, right?
So I've got nothing against AI but I can't be the one who delivers that out at this point.
Technically, I can work that into to what I do.
Exactly.
I can deliver that today.
But the problem is that I can't be held liable for the misuse or somebody's mental health issues going the wrong way, you know?
And I don't, you know, I just can't, I can't do that.
So I only bring that up because with the glasses, it leans heavily into the AI as well, right?
Which it needs to, and which is again, amazing.
But is it a point that I can, you know, safely say that this could be used in schools?
I would be very doubtful, right?
And, you know, we're face-to-face and I can snap a picture of you, and I can start doing things to that picture right now.
And like, you know, you know, I don't trust 13 or 14-year-old boys, you know?
Like, I just don't, right?
Shannon: it's like with people in general.
I mean, we saw what, you know, happened with social media companies, you know, AI, you know, making pictures or things like that and lack of regulation.
Not-- I always joke around because, like, when I tell peop- Yeah.
Like,
Dave Dolan: Yeah.
Shannon: with when I tell people like you know, like about, oh, like, like, like Engage.
I love Engage and I love what they do, and they've got their school of AI, and I put out, like, I'll tell my line, like I'll tell teachers, I'll be
like, "Look, if you ask, you know, Nikola Tesla to say penis, he's not gonna do it." Because kids are still drawing them on bathroom walls and on desks.
Like, let's face it, I am 44 and I giggle when I say Shih Tzu.
So I mean, that's just human nature.
So you're-- I mean, you know, we always have to think about that.
And so, yeah, I just I've got like so many people, "Oh, you get the glasses though," you know what I mean?
Like they're not what you think they are.
Like they're still not like… Now the Vision Pro, like that's what Apple was k- like that's kind of more of what they were designing for was that type of a type of thing where it's like all these, you know, AR displays and things like that.
But even that, like people don't want these devices to do-- They're like, "Oh, it's productivity." Putting on a headset and having three or four different
heads-up displays is not the same as having three different screens, monitors for my computer 'cause it's and it's not, and they think it is, and it translates.
I'm like, "No, it's not." Like it's not the same thing.
So, I just, I think it's great.
I love all the new things.
I just I think that we're skipping over a huge chunk of what we could be doing to go for what's next and new or whatever.
Dave Dolan: Yeah.
I'm not a big fan of that.
Like, you know, and it just I don't know if you know my thoughts on XR.
I don't know if I've said that to you before.
Yeah.
Shannon: or no, I'm not quite sure, but I'd love to hear
Dave Dolan: I'm really not a fan of that term, right?
Because, you know, mixing in, you know, VR, AR, and MR to be XR because they're just that AR and MR, you know, augmented reality and mixed reality add into the experience, right?
You know, you're in the real life and then you add in, you put the heart right between us and we fool around with that and do whatever, right?
I get… Well, maybe do surgery.
Okay.
But but VR is the only one that, that removes, you know, it removes you from the scene.
It puts you into an environment.
It removes distraction, removes judgment, everything else.
So that is really the same as when somebody says, "Well, you know, football is the same as bowling.
Basically, they're the same, right?
They both use a ball, right?
So obviously they're the same." Or paintball is the same as, you know, soccer, right?
You know, you basically, you know, you get paintball and you got a soccer ball, right?
Well, they're inherently different.
Like there, there's nothing even close to being the same, right?
And so, so I don't like when people use the term for one thing and then also deliver out, you know, well, we, we deliver out onto tablets and to PCs and to VR.
What it does is it degrades the value of the VR, I think.
Because, you know, when you add in, you know, let's say the pass-through camera, right?
You know, you think, "Well, that's great. And now I can," you know… But it degrades the experience.
It would be the same as adding, you know, you can add a window into a movie theater, right?
And say, "Well, now I can see out, you know, isn't this great," right?
But that's always gonna be on your mind that there's a window with a curtain on a movie theater.
This is really weird, right?
You know, and there's a little crack of light coming in sometimes and everything else, and you no longer have that really pure movie experience, right?
And so by adding more in it, you're not adding to the value, right?
You're degrading what each of those are.
Be- AR is a wonderful technology as well.
It's great for, you know, let's say construction and where the pipes are and everything.
Like I, I get it completely.
MR is fantastic, and again, you know, heart surgery between the two of us and you're teaching me, you know, how to make that incision, right?
I mean, it's fantastic, but it's completely different from VR, right?
Which is a very different technology, right?
And usage and need and value, right?
So I, you know, you get the glasses, you get the headset, you get, you know, PCs, and you get all these other things.
I think we, I think there's value in keeping them in their lanes and really getting full value out of them rather than trying to flood the zone.
Oh, you like that kind of term, right?
Flood the zone, right?
With everything because it degrades the value of everything.
Shannon: Yes,
Dave, this has been awesome.
Thank you so much.
I always have a great time with you, and I think we can continue to push things.
And I think as long as we're in this fight it's a good one.
And I consider it a true honor to to stand arm in arm with you, and I appreciate everything you've done not only for me, but for the industry and that we're gonna keep doing.
So thank you so much