This is HCD – Human-Centered Design, UX & Service Design Thinking Podcast

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From solo consultant to scaling a design talent powerhouse—Sara Fortier (CEO of Outwitly) reveals what it really takes to grow, hire, and thrive in today’s design economy. Whether you’re a designer eyeing contracting or a leader scaling teams, this conversation is packed with insights you won’t want to miss.

In this episode, Gerry Scullion speaks with Sara Fortier, CEO and founder of Outwitly, about her journey from being a hands-on designer to leading a 20+ person team and connecting contractors with organisations across North America.

Sara shares lessons on contracting, client relationships, hiring, leadership growth, and how AI is reshaping the design industry. If you’re a designer considering contracting, or a leader thinking about scaling your practice, this conversation is full of insights.

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Learn more about Outwitly - Your Trusted UX Partners ™ for building high-impact teams.
http://outwitly.com/

Connect with Sara Fortier on LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarafortier/

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Creators and Guests

Host
Gerry Scullion
Gerry Scullion is an Irish-born, globally recognised service designer, educator, podcaster, coach, and founder based in Dublin. With 22+ years in design, his career spans roles in interaction design, UX, and leadership positions—most notably as Head of Design at Myspace Australia/NZ and later serving clients like Cochlear, Microsoft, Aer Lingus, and government bodies  . He’s the Founder & CEO of The Human‑Centered Design Network and the voice behind This is HCD, a popular podcast and design community with over one million downloads . A committed educator, he has developed several online courses—spanning UX fundamentals, journey mapping, stakeholder mapping, prototyping, and service blueprints—as well as authoring “Service Design for Executives” on Pluralsight . A passionate keynote speaker at events like UX Scotland and Service Design Days, he shares his insights on resilience in design, ethical frameworks (“do no harm”), and embedding design within tech-led environments . Gerry is also Co‑founder and Director at Humana Design, a Dublin-based agency focusing on design research, consultancy, and enabling design transformation . Beyond design, he’s a coach and mentor to designers worldwide, a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, and a former Councillor for Ireland . In his personal time, Gerry is a musician, barista-in-training, gardener, and family man living by the sea in Clontarf, Dublin

What is This is HCD – Human-Centered Design, UX & Service Design Thinking Podcast?

Welcome to This is HCD – Human-Centered Design, UX & Service Design Thinking Podcast, the global show for designers, innovators, and changemakers who want to create better products, services, and experiences.

Hosted by Gerry Scullion, with over 1-million downloads worldwide.

Each episode dives into conversations with leading voices in service design, UX design, interaction design, customer experience, and design strategy. Together, we explore the methods, mindsets, and real-world stories that bring human-centered design and design thinking to life.

Whether you’re a UX researcher, service design practitioner, product manager, or design leader, you’ll find actionable insights, practical tools, and inspiration to elevate your practice and drive meaningful change.

Tune in and join the global human-centered design community — learn how to design with purpose, create inclusive solutions, and shape a more thoughtful future.

[00:00:00] Sara Fortier: Like I've run my entire business based on my intuition. And so if I sniffed [00:00:05] them out on that call and I was like, okay, you seem normal, you seem cool, [00:00:10] and you've got a nice portfolio that I've looked at. You're good. I'll put you in [00:00:15] kind of thing. Yeah. And actually it worked really well, but what you realize is that.

[00:00:19] Sara Fortier: If [00:00:20] you're gonna scale your company, you can't be on every interview. Exactly. Um, and you have [00:00:25] to create processes and systems around it.

[00:00:27] Gerry Scullion: Hey folks, and welcome back to another [00:00:30] episode of This is Haight cd. My name is Jerry Scion and I'm a human-centered service design [00:00:35] practitioner based in the beautiful city of Dublin, Ireland today in the show.

[00:00:39] Gerry Scullion: Sarah [00:00:40] 48. Now Sarah is the CEO of outwardly, a UX and service design [00:00:45] talent solutions organization based in Canada. And we cover a lot of ground in this episode, [00:00:50] but a few things really stuck out to me. There's three things. Number one, the founder, honesty. You'll see [00:00:55] that Sarah, when we were speaking, um, is really, really refreshing.

[00:00:58] Gerry Scullion: The openly and honest, [00:01:00] okay. They don't have all the answers. But we speak about the complexities and the complications of [00:01:05] building a business around your family. So like myself, it's, it's [00:01:10] difficult. So we speak about that fumbling early stages of growing a business into the, [00:01:15] the larger contracts and where they currently are now at the moment.

[00:01:18] Gerry Scullion: So it's really [00:01:20] candid way of looking at starting a business. The second point is designing for scale, and [00:01:25] we unpack what it actually means to do this. From leaning into your gut in the early days [00:01:30] and then really formalizing those processes to set you up with the, uh, the ability to scale [00:01:35] your organization.

[00:01:36] Gerry Scullion: And Sarah really is open about this and it's fantastic to see and hear. And the [00:01:40] third piece is what recruiters really look for. So if you are out there in the market at the moment looking for a job, [00:01:45] Sarah is in this industry. And gives absolutely, you know, [00:01:50] gold nuggets being dropped every couple of seconds in this episode towards the end, especially where we [00:01:55] speak about what recruiters are looking for, what you need to do to give yourself the edge.

[00:01:58] Gerry Scullion: So if you're in the market for a [00:02:00] job, this is a great episode, so be sure to stay to the very end and listen to that as well. [00:02:05] So if you're thinking about contracting, building your own team, or just curious on how to design. How [00:02:10] recruitment intersect. I know you're gonna love this episode and also we speak about, Sarah's got [00:02:15] a new book that is coming out and we speak about that at length.

[00:02:18] Gerry Scullion: 'cause I have had the [00:02:20] opportunity to read parts of this book and I believe it is gonna be an absolutely uh, [00:02:25] blockbuster. So I know you're gonna enjoy it. Learn more about the book in the episode and hope you.[00:02:30] [00:02:35] [00:02:40]

[00:02:41] Gerry Scullion: Let's start off. We'll, uh, you're based in Winnipeg. [00:02:45] Yeah. Uh, that's correct. But maybe for our listeners, tell us how you [00:02:50] introduce yourself at dinner parties.

[00:02:52] Sara Fortier: Well, what, uh, what do I say at dinner parties? [00:02:55] I don't go to dinner parties because I'm a mom of two and I have a little baby. Um, [00:03:00] that's right. And a 5-year-old.

[00:03:01] Sara Fortier: Uh, but yeah, essentially I, uh, I am the CEO and [00:03:05] founder of at Whitley. And, uh, I am a trained designer and design [00:03:10] strategist. Um, went to school of industrial design, learned about designing [00:03:15] 3D products way back when. Oh yeah, it's a great, great, great [00:03:20] upbringing into the industry, I think. Yeah. Um, I know Whitley is a UX [00:03:25] and service design talent solutions partner.

[00:03:27] Sara Fortier: So we started as consulting and now we're [00:03:30] doing more talent. And so I lead, uh, that company, my company.

[00:03:34] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, [00:03:35] because when we were chatting there in the prelude, we spoke about you made your first hire, [00:03:40] was it 2020? 2020, yeah. 21. Yeah,

[00:03:42] Sara Fortier: 2020.

[00:03:43] Gerry Scullion: So had a bit of [00:03:45] rapid growth both personally and professionally. Um, for out at Whitley.

[00:03:49] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:03:50] So what was that like? You mentioned there that you were on the tools, and I think you mentioned that you [00:03:55] were, um, you're your first child. Is that right? That same thing? Yeah.

[00:03:58] Sara Fortier: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, [00:04:00] uh, so basically I, I, you know, I started the company in 2016. [00:04:05] Really? It was just me. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I was doing d you know, [00:04:10] different consulting jobs for different clients that, you know, I'd met through referrals or different companies I used [00:04:15] to have to work with.

[00:04:16] Sara Fortier: And then, um. I had my fir my [00:04:20] son, uh, in 2019 and realized like, okay, this maybe isn't so sustainable [00:04:25] to be pregnant and having a baby and all the things. Mm-hmm. So I hired my first employee who was [00:04:30] actually my best friend. Um, and she wasn't a designer, she was in [00:04:35] communication. So she kind of did a lot of the admin and the marketing stuff while I continued to do the [00:04:40] design work.

[00:04:41] Sara Fortier: Um, and then because so slowly sort of grew from there and kind of [00:04:45] kept the consulting piece, uh. Going and then I, you [00:04:50] know, I was getting asked a lot like, Hey, you know, Sarah, we love you so much. Could you come work for us full-time for [00:04:55] six months? And I was like, yeah, no, I have way too many other projects on the [00:05:00] go.

[00:05:00] Sara Fortier: Uh, but I have a friend. Um, and so I started [00:05:05] hiring contractors and placing them full-time. Within our client organizations and [00:05:10] realized there was business there. And, uh, oh, over the last few years [00:05:15] that has kind of taken over the, the business and, um, it's a really [00:05:20] scalable model. So, uh, that's where we're sitting now.

[00:05:23] Gerry Scullion: I mean, we could probably speak about the [00:05:25] growth of Out Whitley and the rebrand, um, but with that [00:05:30] piece that you mentioned there about hiring talent. Yeah. Um, effectively extending the [00:05:35] relationship beyond. Friend into contracting and into [00:05:40] that whole world. How did you navigate the stakeholder pieces, um, [00:05:45] between businesses and contractors?

[00:05:47] Gerry Scullion: In the very early doors? Yeah. What was that like? [00:05:50] Because you probably didn't have any legal representation, you didn't have any contracting pieces. Yeah. [00:05:55]

[00:05:55] Sara Fortier: I mean, we did, like I was, uh, when I started the company and started hiring [00:06:00] people. My parents are business owners and they always said to me, get contracts.

[00:06:03] Sara Fortier: Like you have to have contracts [00:06:05] in place. So I did have contracts in place like early on. Okay. I think the [00:06:10] stuff that I. Didn't know and that I was like fumbling my way through with was [00:06:15] on the client side actually. Like, what do the sows look like and what do those contracts [00:06:20] look like? Um, and I would just like willy-nilly sign pretty much any [00:06:25] contract that came in front of me being like, yep, sounds good.

[00:06:27] Sara Fortier: That's some work for us. Yeah. Work of [00:06:30] work. Um, yeah. Yeah. I, you know, Google templates for. How to draft a [00:06:35] sow, and I'd kind of put it in front of 'em and be like, does this look like it's right? You know? Yeah. [00:06:40] Um, so that, that part was, was like a learning curve. And then the more you do it, the more that you [00:06:45] see too.

[00:06:45] Sara Fortier: You just learn and, and you make it better. Um, but on the, and then on the [00:06:50] people side, I mean, that's. That's an interesting part because when you start a business, when you're [00:06:55] passionate about design, you think that you're gonna be spending your time designing or researching. Yeah. [00:07:00] And what you learn pretty quick as if you're growing the company, you're not doing any of that stuff.

[00:07:04] Sara Fortier: [00:07:05] You're basically managing people, um, making sure everybody's okay. [00:07:10] You know, learning your own demons about what maybe [00:07:15] why you're micromanaging people or, you know. Why you do the certain things [00:07:20] that you do and you kind of have to face those and grow as a person in order to be able to, [00:07:25] to grow your company and be better for the people that are working for you and, and also attract better people.[00:07:30]

[00:07:30] Gerry Scullion: That's really interesting. Most people don't really call that out as a thing when you start [00:07:35] running a business that it kind of shows up your own personal and [00:07:40] potentially professional flaws as well. Yeah. Tell me how, how you explored that as an [00:07:45] individual. Yeah. Good to know that.

[00:07:46] Sara Fortier: Yeah, so I, I mean, I've always been interested in like, [00:07:50] the coaching personal development side of the world, and so I, [00:07:55] I started getting, you know, being dabbling my toes into some business [00:08:00] coaches or life coaching things that, that did help me.

[00:08:03] Sara Fortier: Um, and at [00:08:05] first they were sort of group oriented and then I realized that this, it would be much better if it was [00:08:10] individual. So I, I. Have had business coaches over the last probably three or four years, and I think [00:08:15] that has really helped me grow and be better, um, a [00:08:20] better leader and, uh. Uh, yeah. So I think without them it would've been [00:08:25] a much longer slog and I'm still learning.

[00:08:28] Sara Fortier: You never stop. But, uh, [00:08:30] they helped for sure.

[00:08:32] Gerry Scullion: One of the things you mentioned there, and I'd love to get your [00:08:35] understanding of that, is when you hire talent. And you're looking to make sure [00:08:40] that they can do the job. Yeah. But they're also reflective of the [00:08:45] brand that you've built and the same kinda mindset if you want like Yeah, [00:08:50] like an extension of with Sarah, like, you know.

[00:08:52] Sara Fortier: Yeah.

[00:08:54] Gerry Scullion: How, how, [00:08:55] what's your recruitment process? Because you also have to make sure then that they're able to adapt and. [00:09:00] Still do the job for your clients.

[00:09:02] Sara Fortier: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I [00:09:05] mean, it's a really good question and, and I think if, if I'm being honest, in the [00:09:10] beginning it was me. I would just, you know, find people online, message them, be like, [00:09:15] Hey, your profile matches what I'm looking for.

[00:09:18] Sara Fortier: Can we talk? And it was [00:09:20] really easy for me to talk to pretty much anyone because they'd look at my LinkedIn profile, they'd be like, oh wow, you know, [00:09:25] she's been doing this for X number of years, and she's the CEO of be Whitley. Company looks cool. So it's [00:09:30] really easy to get the calls with the talent. Um, and I would just ask them questions, you [00:09:35] know, the way I would interview any UX designer or service designer.

[00:09:38] Sara Fortier: You know, tell me about yourself, [00:09:40] background types of projects you've worked on. And I was always looking for the people who. Or [00:09:45] the kind of complex thinkers, the people that could look at a problem and they'd get [00:09:50] excited by a problem. Um, and then they would have a, a more of a real process [00:09:55] around how do they go about solving the problem.

[00:09:57] Sara Fortier: Yeah. Uh, versus more [00:10:00] the glamor stuff that it can. Be very sexy and kind of [00:10:05] prevalent. Um, and it was, it was a gut check. Like I've run my entire [00:10:10] business based on my intuition. And so if I sniffed them out on that call and I was like. [00:10:15] Okay. You seem normal, you seem cool, and you've got a nice [00:10:20] portfolio that I've looked at.

[00:10:21] Sara Fortier: You're good, I'll put you in kind of thing. Yeah. And actually [00:10:25] it worked really well. But what you realize is that if you're gonna scale your company, you [00:10:30] can't be on every interview. Exactly. Um, and you have to create processes and [00:10:35] systems around it. And then also getting into the staffing and talent worlds, there [00:10:40] is like a full process around recruiting.

[00:10:43] Sara Fortier: Um, so now we have more. [00:10:45] More things in place, you know, rubrics and, and things that we're checking for. [00:10:50] Um, but at a Whitley in particular, that problem solving piece also, are [00:10:55] people organized? Are they, do they have high emotional intelligence? [00:11:00] Um, I think are other things that we are looking for.

[00:11:03] Gerry Scullion: So for talent out [00:11:05] there.

[00:11:05] Gerry Scullion: Looking to get a gig if, if your, your [00:11:10] business model is kind of expanding as opposed to, you know, contracting. And I'm speaking from [00:11:15] behalf out Whitley here. You must see a lot of people and you [00:11:20] must Yeah. Exposed to times service designers and user experience people. Yeah. [00:11:25] Um, if you had to. Give us a top three [00:11:30] kind of things that you've noticed that people are doing wrong.

[00:11:33] Sara Fortier: Mm. Um,

[00:11:34] Gerry Scullion: that they, they're [00:11:35] opportunities for them to use those pieces to get an edge. [00:11:40]

[00:11:40] Sara Fortier: Yeah.

[00:11:40] Gerry Scullion: I'm putting you in this here because we haven't, yeah, no, I have

[00:11:42] Sara Fortier: to think there. What people are doing [00:11:45] wrong.

[00:11:45] Gerry Scullion: It stands for,

[00:11:49] Gerry Scullion: you know, I [00:11:50] think, um. I

[00:11:52] Sara Fortier: mean the, one of the things is like optimizing your [00:11:55] LinkedIn profile really? Okay. Like putting a ton of detail in your LinkedIn [00:12:00] profile. Yeah. We'll,

[00:12:01] Gerry Scullion: we'll, we'll take this one a little bit slower. Okay. So yeah, optimizing [00:12:05] your LinkedIn profile. I have a LinkedIn profile. I put all my stuff up there.

[00:12:08] Gerry Scullion: Is that optimized? [00:12:10]

[00:12:10] Sara Fortier: Well, I guess I haven't looked at it. No, no. But just Penny. Yeah. In theory. In theory, it's basically what, [00:12:15] what you see a lot of the time is when people are, well, I mean, we're [00:12:20] a recruiting firm, so we're going out towards to, to build pools and build a pipeline of [00:12:25] talent. Right. But we're looking for people, are they marked as open to work?

[00:12:28] Sara Fortier: Um, do [00:12:30] they, uh, have the description under the headers of their role? Right. Do they have [00:12:35] bullet points there? I mean, this is really basic stuff, but you'd be surprised at how. How often that's [00:12:40] neglected or people are just kind of like, well, the roles are there and I worked at big companies, so why do I need to explain [00:12:45] what I did?

[00:12:45] Sara Fortier: Um, so I would say, you know, have a profile picture. [00:12:50] Have all your roles there in your bio. Use keywords of thing, like if you're an [00:12:55] accessibility designer, make sure that's mentioned because. You're searching in [00:13:00] LinkedIn for keywords, you know, if you're a freelancer, an independent contractor, write those [00:13:05] keywords in because, um, you don't know how people are trying to actually find [00:13:10] you.

[00:13:10] Sara Fortier: Yeah. So from my perspective, when we're looking for people, that is what I [00:13:15] would say is 'cause the first point is for us LinkedIn. [00:13:20] Then, then you move to the resume and the portfolio. Right? And [00:13:25] so, uh, and you kind of have to pass this first set of checks before you're gonna get an [00:13:30] interview. And so if you don't do good on those things, you're, you're just not gonna meet [00:13:35] anybody.

[00:13:35] Sara Fortier: Right?

[00:13:36] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Let's talk about photographs on LinkedIn. Yeah. Because, [00:13:40] um. What about if you, if you're a creative, uh, or if you're, [00:13:45] yeah. In Ad World and you've got a profile photo, what, what's your thoughts when they do the sideline [00:13:50] side profile? Oh, that's okay.

[00:13:51] Sara Fortier: That's alright. Yeah, photo. That's fine.

[00:13:53] Gerry Scullion: That's fine, isn't it?

[00:13:54] Sara Fortier: Yeah, [00:13:55] that's fine. I think, uh, you know, that's more like, oh, you're just thinking this person's creative or [00:14:00] cartoon, you're looking for designer cartoon photos

[00:14:01] Gerry Scullion: yourself.

[00:14:02] Sara Fortier: Yeah. I guess I would say like, maybe no [00:14:05] avatars or, you know, know. That, that sort of thing. It's just like that to know that you're a [00:14:10] human.

[00:14:10] Gerry Scullion: Okay. So they've got a grasp that shows [00:14:15] that they've got an intent around their, their own personal brand is probably gonna [00:14:20] be a bit of an image. Yeah.

[00:14:21] Sara Fortier: Yes. Yeah, a hundred percent.

[00:14:23] Gerry Scullion: Once they pass [00:14:25] the Sarah 48, um, check for LinkedIn. Yeah. [00:14:30] Slip into the dms, as they would say. Is that right?

[00:14:33] Sara Fortier: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[00:14:34] Sara Fortier: So I mean, [00:14:35] and that, that, uh, wouldn't be true if you were just applying online to a [00:14:40] job posting, right? Because, uh, first you're gonna be, you know, you send your application through, [00:14:45] but someone who's vetting you at some point, right? So they're looking at either your resume or LinkedIn. [00:14:50] Um, and then, uh, and portfolio is a big piece that we can probably talk about [00:14:55] too.

[00:14:55] Sara Fortier: Yeah. But, uh. Yeah, so the resume also needs to describe, I [00:15:00] think so many people just put generic bullet points, conductive usability testing. Oh, [00:15:05] okay, great. Like, what does that even mean? Do we, don't we all do that? Like Yeah, perfect. You know, [00:15:10] give, give some color about what it is that the project was about.

[00:15:13] Sara Fortier: Sure. Um, some [00:15:15] context there in your resume I think is really helpful. Um, and then, and then, [00:15:20] uh, you know, from there with the portfolio. This is so typical, such a typical answer, [00:15:25] but, you know, show some storytelling, um, some process, some thinking. [00:15:30] It doesn't have to be. And I would say please don't riddle your portfolio with a [00:15:35] ton of words because.

[00:15:36] Sara Fortier: I am not reading those words. Okay. I'm [00:15:40] basically scrolling through quickly, looking at, you know, do they have some [00:15:45] headers that make sense, uh, for what, you know, starting with some discovery work [00:15:50] and maybe some journey maps or some personas. I take a quick look at those. I'm like, Hey, generally this [00:15:55] looks good.

[00:15:56] Sara Fortier: And I'm like, Hey, have they thought about ia? Did they do user [00:16:00] flows? Um, was there some conceptual thinking there before they then got [00:16:05] into maybe more on the design side? And it depends on the role you're looking for too.

[00:16:08] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Let's talk [00:16:10] about when you make contact on LinkedIn. Oh, yeah. Once, um, on [00:16:15] the other side of the fence, when you do get these messages.

[00:16:18] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. And they're. [00:16:20] You know, sent through Sales Navigator on LinkedIn. AI generated, [00:16:25] yeah. Some of them are like, you know, whatever. And sometimes the responses you can get back from people are [00:16:30] one word, like no. Yep. Yes. Walk. [00:16:35] Um, people should respond to these pieces. Yeah. What, what are your thoughts on that?

[00:16:39] Gerry Scullion: Because it's, it's getting [00:16:40] more and more difficult to know what's real and what's just, yeah. I

[00:16:43] Sara Fortier: mean, we, there's [00:16:45] not enough time to personalize the messages when you're recruiting for a role that, let's [00:16:50] say you need to turn around candidates for in a week, right? So you need to sort of blast [00:16:55] message a hundred candidates who fit the, um,

[00:16:58] Gerry Scullion: criteria,

[00:16:59] Sara Fortier: the criteria.[00:17:00]

[00:17:00] Sara Fortier: Uh, and usually sales

[00:17:02] Gerry Scullion: navigator. Sales navigator. Is that, is that the tool that you choose? [00:17:05] We,

[00:17:05] Sara Fortier: we use recruiter, LinkedIn recruiter. It's another LinkedIn tool, but it's more talent [00:17:10] focused.

[00:17:10] Gerry Scullion: Okay.

[00:17:11] Sara Fortier: Um, and, uh, you. Yeah, [00:17:15] so basically you build out a pipeline and then you send messages. It is, right now we still do [00:17:20] it manually.

[00:17:20] Sara Fortier: We're looking into where to augment with ai, but as you said, when you [00:17:25] start using the AI scripts, especially the LinkedIn AI scripts, it's just not there yet. Like they sound [00:17:30] still too manufactured, I guess. Yeah, it's getting better so. [00:17:35] But I, I think you're looking for real details. Like, you know, what, is it a [00:17:40] contract?

[00:17:40] Sara Fortier: What are the dates? Start date, end date? Is it option to renew? You know, [00:17:45] is there a description of what the project is about? Uh, and then you assess for [00:17:50] yourself, like, is this interesting to me? Um, mm-hmm. And decide whether to message, [00:17:55] I mean, honestly, a lot of people aren't looking for, for an opportunity, or [00:18:00] they don't like some of the specifics from the job that you, yeah.

[00:18:03] Sara Fortier: You send, so that's fine that they [00:18:05] say no. We always say, okay. You know, like, Hey, but can we keep you in mind for future things if we think they're good? [00:18:10]

[00:18:10] Gerry Scullion: What happens then from your business perspective? Like if you are sending out a hundred, [00:18:15] 200 messages Yeah. And someone kind of comes back and says, yeah, that's cool, but not right [00:18:20] now.

[00:18:20] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. What, what do you do with that response? Is that possible to, [00:18:25] you know, I guess create a more of a human to human experience? Yeah. Yeah. What [00:18:30] does that look like? How, how do you stay there?

[00:18:32] Sara Fortier: That. Yeah. So it's, it, it's the, you, you [00:18:35] have a team of people, right, who are doing those answers, and then they're putting them in our pool.

[00:18:39] Sara Fortier: I mean, and it's, [00:18:40] it's linked to the, to the software. When you connect with somebody on LinkedIn, but [00:18:45] you kind of, you, you know, you just say, okay, great. You know, like we'd love to keep you in mind for [00:18:50] future. Um, sometimes we ask them to send us their resume, uh, so that we can add it [00:18:55] to yeah, like our just general pool.

[00:18:57] Sara Fortier: Um,

[00:18:58] Gerry Scullion: can I ask some thoughts on [00:19:00] something there? Because

[00:19:00] Sara Fortier: Yeah.

[00:19:01] Gerry Scullion: Years ago, like maybe over 10, 11 years ago [00:19:05] when I used to be, you know, out contracting, um, yeah. People [00:19:10] would, would email me and I'm like, oh, here's this person again.

[00:19:13] Sara Fortier: Yeah. And

[00:19:13] Gerry Scullion: they're, I, I've already [00:19:15] spoken to them and then I get a message back on LinkedIn a few weeks later.

[00:19:19] Gerry Scullion: I'm like, [00:19:20] I've already told you I don't want this. Oh, yeah. And it affects poorly [00:19:25] on the recruiter. Yeah. And it's kind of a, a system that just [00:19:30] goes around and round. Yeah. If you do make contact, uh, [00:19:35] and you say it'll keep you in mind for another time.

[00:19:37] Sara Fortier: Yeah.

[00:19:38] Gerry Scullion: Do you?

[00:19:39] Sara Fortier: [00:19:40] Yeah. I mean, they go, they listen. They, you talk to a lot, a lot of people, right?

[00:19:44] Sara Fortier: Yeah. [00:19:45] And, uh, every job that you're looking to fill has different [00:19:50] criteria. Yeah. So we do keep them in mind, like if they're good, we do a hundred percent. Keep them [00:19:55] in mind because write

[00:19:55] Gerry Scullion: a photo of them. You put them up the wall and you put it in a frame [00:20:00] and looked the computer. So every time you change screen, you go, there's Jerry.

[00:20:04] Sara Fortier: No, [00:20:05] we have tags. Like we have tags where it's like, you know, if they're an A player or something like that, we'll [00:20:10] use that 'cause. So what you do first is you go to your known people to see if any of them [00:20:15] fit. Then next you go to your bigger pool. People that you've had some kind of touch point [00:20:20] with. Then if none of those fit, then you go to recruiter and you build a pipeline, you reach out to [00:20:25] strangers.

[00:20:25] Sara Fortier: Um, but what you're trying to do is have a really established pool [00:20:30] of strong candidates that you go to first and that are vetted and everything. So we have [00:20:35] like ongoing coffee chats with new people to get them into our pool all the time so that they're sort [00:20:40] of pre-vetted. Okay. Um, and so a candidate that says, Hey, I'd be interested in future.[00:20:45]

[00:20:45] Sara Fortier: We'll often be like, okay, great. Send us your resume. You know, we'll look at the resume. If we think [00:20:50] it's good to follow up with them and add them to our pool in a more serious way, then we'll ask for a [00:20:55] coffee chat. And there's bandwidth and resourcing you have to think about, but [00:21:00] that's what we try to do.

[00:21:01] Gerry Scullion: Can I ask a question, um, around, say you've got [00:21:05] four roles and they're going into. A bank that's in Canada. I have no idea. If you [00:21:10] work with banks, yeah. If you do, it's just a coincidence.

[00:21:12] Sara Fortier: Yeah.

[00:21:13] Gerry Scullion: They go off and they're working in there [00:21:15] and you are kind of, they, they, they're doing their job [00:21:20] and you're kind of maintaining connection with them and that relationship [00:21:25] goes on for a year, two years.

[00:21:27] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Where is the relationship [00:21:30] at as regards maintaining the skills of those practitioners who are [00:21:35] in. The bank. Okay. Because I've often wondered the gray area, like [00:21:40] sometimes I'd be doing training for banks or whatever it is, and they say, look, these are all the full-time employees [00:21:45] and then there's the long-term contractors.

[00:21:46] Gerry Scullion: We can't really bring them in.

[00:21:48] Sara Fortier: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:48] Gerry Scullion: It's, it seems really [00:21:50] kind of crappy, like, you know, like they're part of the team, but they're not part of the team. Yeah. Who do you navigate that? [00:21:55]

[00:21:55] Sara Fortier: Yeah, it depends on the client. We do have some clients that are very inclusive of their [00:22:00] contractors, so they will bring them into trainings and stuff like that.

[00:22:03] Sara Fortier: Uh, and then you have [00:22:05] clients that are like, well, they're being paid way more, and so they should [00:22:10] be in charge of their own, uh,

[00:22:12] Gerry Scullion: l and d

[00:22:12] Sara Fortier: development. Right? Yeah. [00:22:15] Um, sometimes you, they will maybe give them discounts or something if they [00:22:20] have like a license to some training or, or things like that. But yeah, it's kind of two [00:22:25] mindsets.

[00:22:25] Sara Fortier: It's either. They're very inclusive and they feel very much a part of the team, [00:22:30] and they will bring them to trainings and just upscale the whole team together, or it's very, [00:22:35] there's a line in the sand and, and that's. That's just [00:22:40] kind of the way it is, and it's like when you decide that you're gonna contract, you have to [00:22:45] understand that like you are your own business.

[00:22:47] Sara Fortier: Yeah. Uh, you represent yourself. I mean, you're [00:22:50] always representing the companies that you're working for at Whitley as the vendor and the [00:22:55] client. Um, but you know, things like, you know, the software [00:23:00] sometimes the machine that you're using, like that's usually stuff that they provide. Depends again, on the company, right?

[00:23:04] Sara Fortier: [00:23:05] For security reasons, they might say, use all our tools and machines and stuff. Yeah. But it's a cost [00:23:10] that you. Have to incur essentially, because you're making so much more money [00:23:15] than you would as an employee, but you could also be let go drop of a hat with [00:23:20] no, there's no hr.

[00:23:21] Gerry Scullion: Absolutely. Yeah. Regularly. I got emails on a [00:23:25] Sunday night saying, this is your last week, you know, in a [00:23:30] bank in Australia.

[00:23:30] Gerry Scullion: I was like, what? Yeah. Put the funding for, for big programs to work and it just [00:23:35] happened. Yeah, it just, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. If you, [00:23:40] um, 'cause like when you started out in your business, um, and now it's moved into [00:23:45] this kind of area Yeah. Where you're, you're scaling. Talent effectively, that's not a [00:23:50] recruiter.

[00:23:50] Gerry Scullion: I had a conversation before Sarah, and we were saying we're not really recruiter. It's more helping [00:23:55] those teams find the right talent. Yeah. Um, but it's still, uh, the relationship [00:24:00] is still with Sarah. Yeah. If you had a magic wand, this is a pen. Okay. If you had a magic [00:24:05] wand and we could go bing. Yeah. And you can go back in time.

[00:24:08] Gerry Scullion: What are the things that you wish you [00:24:10] had in place, um, and you, um, were able to put in place to best prepare [00:24:15] you for where you're at now? Yeah. What are those things that you, you kind of look back on and say, God, I wish [00:24:20] I knew, uh, how to do that? Yeah. Better way back. What are they?

[00:24:23] Sara Fortier: I, I think I would've invested in [00:24:25] senior leadership way faster.

[00:24:26] Gerry Scullion: Right. Uh, what did that look like? [00:24:30] In what capacity?

[00:24:31] Sara Fortier: Like, uh, you know, any of your, your senior [00:24:35] people who, you know, it depends on what their title is and depends on the company that you, [00:24:40] you're building and stuff, but like, essentially the people that are gonna lead the team members. [00:24:45] Mm-hmm. Um. That I would've hired those like really [00:24:50] smart people and chalked up, you know, like it's hard to commit to the [00:24:55] payroll and that's why you don't do it in the beginning.

[00:24:57] Sara Fortier: And, and there's within reason, but at some point you [00:25:00] get to a point where you can afford it. And you, I, and I'm sure many others, but [00:25:05] like, I still like having the money in my pocket. Um, or this [00:25:10] still feels a little bit too risky or something, right? Mm-hmm. So waited a long time for that. [00:25:15] And then once you bring those senior people on who can [00:25:20] be autonomous and they can take on way more work, or they've done it [00:25:25] better at different places, you can scale the company because you're [00:25:30] offloaded from all of those tasks.

[00:25:31] Sara Fortier: Uh, and you can go get more business or, you know, whatever it is [00:25:35] that you should focus on. So I think. That's for sure. One of the things,

[00:25:39] Gerry Scullion: [00:25:40] so in the early days it's, it seems to be like you and I'm the same. You want to [00:25:45] bank as much as you possibly can. Yeah. So you've got money in, in the bank. At what point did you relinquish and [00:25:50] say, actually, you know what?

[00:25:50] Gerry Scullion: I'm gonna happy to take a loss here 'cause I'm gonna invest into talent [00:25:55] in the hope. Yeah. Rates around over the last five years, I guess you've been kind of doing [00:26:00] this. Yeah, I've sort of, you know, been

[00:26:02] Sara Fortier: doing it slowly and I think as the [00:26:05] company became more profitable and I would sort of look at like, okay, what was the monthly [00:26:10] profit?

[00:26:10] Sara Fortier: Yeah, not revenue, right? I think everyone gets obsessed with top line revenue, but you have [00:26:15] to think about is the company profitable? Um, 'cause that's, [00:26:20] let's be real, you start a business to make money. I mean, you've had, there's all [00:26:25] the good things about it and everything, but business is. Make the world run and they all make [00:26:30] money.

[00:26:30] Sara Fortier: So

[00:26:30] Gerry Scullion: who was the, that you hired? What was the first senior leadership position that you hired? I'm always [00:26:35] interested in what that one was. Was it, was it finance or was it Yeah, it was

[00:26:38] Sara Fortier: finance.

[00:26:39] Gerry Scullion: Right. [00:26:40] Okay.

[00:26:40] Sara Fortier: Yeah, because I didn't like that stuff.

[00:26:42] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Is this [00:26:45] channel, I mean, I looked

[00:26:45] Sara Fortier: looking at the number.

[00:26:47] Gerry Scullion: Is this Shanna small?

[00:26:48] Gerry Scullion: Shanna?

[00:26:49] Sara Fortier: Yeah. [00:26:50] Hi Shanna. Hi Shanna. She's great.

[00:26:52] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Yeah. So you [00:26:55] hired the finance person and then Yeah. That did some stability in terms of like, you know, the [00:27:00] projections and so forth. Yeah.

[00:27:01] Sara Fortier: And all of the ad, she kind of just took care of all of the backend [00:27:05] stuff, you know, all the admin, the paying contractors.

[00:27:07] Sara Fortier: I mean, as you grow and you start having to pay [00:27:10] so many more people like that gets, yeah. So time consuming, complicated, [00:27:15] um, and invoicing on time, all of this stuff. Right. I used to be really slow with my invoices [00:27:20] and now I'm like. So mad when the contractors send their invoices in like five, six days late.

[00:27:24] Sara Fortier: I'm like, [00:27:25] come on, where's the invoice? Yeah, it's, you know, and I used to do it all the time.

[00:27:29] Gerry Scullion: I know [00:27:30] like, well, well I was never late sending invoices. Let's just say that because I realize [00:27:35] when you're small at the start, like it really is [00:27:40] kill you so quickly. Um, so now you're at like, whatever did you say.[00:27:45]

[00:27:45] Gerry Scullion: 25, 30 people, I dunno,

[00:27:47] Sara Fortier: many people. Really? 20 people. And then, you know, 50 or [00:27:50] so contractors. And then sometimes it scales from there. But yeah,

[00:27:54] Gerry Scullion: around that. So [00:27:55] what you seeing in the market at the moment? Because lots of people are [00:28:00] looking for work.

[00:28:01] Sara Fortier: Yeah.

[00:28:02] Gerry Scullion: And how, how is it that your business is growing? [00:28:05] Yeah.

[00:28:05] Gerry Scullion: And uh, lots of people are still out there knocking on the door, especially in senior le senior [00:28:10] leadership positions.

[00:28:12] Sara Fortier: Uh, I mean, it's been a tough, tough [00:28:15] few years I think for our industry in general. Um. Funny [00:28:20] thing is that when it seems to be that when the [00:28:25] employees are being let go, contractors are being hired a lot of the time [00:28:30] because the companies still have stuff that needs to get done, but they're uncertain as to whether [00:28:35] they can carry.

[00:28:36] Sara Fortier: You know, a new headcount for X number of year. Like when you hire an [00:28:40] employee, it's a commitment. And there's a whole thing around employees that you can't just let them [00:28:45] go. Like yeah, you know, you have to put them on a performance improvement plan, and you have to [00:28:50] have all these reasons if you needed to let them go, right?

[00:28:52] Sara Fortier: Sure. Um, so, [00:28:55] and there's severance and all the things, right? So when. So contracting actually [00:29:00] does well in times where there's maybe more uncertainty in the economy. Yeah. So [00:29:05] that has helped. Um, and then, you know, I think also diversifying the industries [00:29:10] that you work with. Like tech is super hit hard, like really hard hit, but there's [00:29:15] opportunities in government, there's opportunities in finance and other, you know, insurance, other [00:29:20] places.

[00:29:21] Gerry Scullion: So with contracting and [00:29:25] businesses out there, like I, I totally see that the correlation between, you know, they [00:29:30] mitigate the risk in terms of being able to, you know, not have to worry about severance pay and [00:29:35] yeah. Health benefits and all, all of that, sort of the importance stuff, to be honest. [00:29:40] Yeah. But what with what you offer at the moment.

[00:29:44] Gerry Scullion: Is there a [00:29:45] certain type of designer that you're finding is a little bit more easier to find work [00:29:50] in your, in your cycle? Yeah. What does that look like? Yeah. What are they looking for? Yeah. [00:29:55]

[00:29:55] Sara Fortier: I, I, I think it's those people that I was kind of talking about earlier where they're, [00:30:00] they can do the strategy and the thinking and the, the research and then [00:30:05] they can carry it into the design.

[00:30:07] Sara Fortier: Um, I would say people who are [00:30:10] just mainly focused on more like heavily UI stuff or just [00:30:15] ux, pure UX research without the crossover into what does [00:30:20] this mean from a strategy perspective. Yeah, have a harder time. So like the people [00:30:25] that can do that, that middle piece where it's like maybe you're not doing all the research, but you [00:30:30] can think really strategically and you can connect it to what the design should be for the [00:30:35] business.

[00:30:35] Sara Fortier: Yeah, those people always have work.

[00:30:38] Gerry Scullion: So where does, I [00:30:40] hate this too little, little letter word. I, [00:30:45] I know. It's like surely you're feeling, um, that [00:30:50] conversation. Um, yeah. More and more with clients. Yeah. They're saying, well, can [00:30:55] we just use ai? Do you have anyone who you can help us with this? Yeah. Help design an [00:31:00] ai.

[00:31:00] Gerry Scullion: Where is that at in your mind?

[00:31:03] Sara Fortier: Yeah, I, I mean, I've [00:31:05] struggled with it. I have my good days and my bad days with what I think the future. We talk about bad

[00:31:09] Gerry Scullion: days. [00:31:10]

[00:31:11] Sara Fortier: I'm an optimist, so I like to focus on the good.

[00:31:13] Gerry Scullion: Lots of half empty here [00:31:15] today, folks.

[00:31:17] Sara Fortier: No, I think, I think, you know, you worry. Of [00:31:20] course I'm worried sometimes, you know, I'm like, oh God.

[00:31:22] Sara Fortier: It, you know, there's, there's. Like [00:31:25] AI platforms out there that are saying they can make personas or that they're, you [00:31:30] know, doing like lovable, which does like UX work and uh, like [00:31:35] wire frames and prototypes and stuff. Right. Um, so there's tools coming out that are pretty [00:31:40] powerful and you know, that it's rapidly like only gonna get better quickly.

[00:31:44] Sara Fortier: [00:31:45] Right? Yeah. Um, so I have my moments where I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm building a business. [00:31:50] That is about finding people that do this for clients like that, [00:31:55] you know, that were, in theory, AI could replace us. And then, and then I'm like, no, [00:32:00] chill up for a second here. Yeah, like a AI is going to make us better [00:32:05] and faster.

[00:32:06] Sara Fortier: The outputs more efficient, you know, but [00:32:10] it, it can't do the empathy piece, it can't do that complex thinking. It can't herd cats, [00:32:15] which is what we do. Yeah. Like all, you got tons of different stakeholders that have all these different opinions and [00:32:20] perspectives and they don't get along. Like AI is not gonna solve that.

[00:32:23] Gerry Scullion: A hundred percent. [00:32:25] In terms I keep on saying in terms of today, I don't know what's in terms of, in terms of why I'm saying [00:32:30] that, but generally, when you are engaging with clients, [00:32:35] the, they might ask for, say, five user experience designers. Yeah. [00:32:40] Like an ingredients list for a cake. But you know that that cake is gonna be, um, if you [00:32:45] want a shit sandwich.

[00:32:46] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. What role do you play [00:32:50] in making sure that they're not creating. Potential sandwich like that, [00:32:55] um, are you able to intervene and say, actually, you know what, it doesn't sound like you really need [00:33:00] these, these kind of people. Yeah. What you're actually looking for is something a little bit more further upstream and then maybe [00:33:05] six months time come back.

[00:33:06] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. And then you'd be more ready for this. Do you provide, is that a [00:33:10] consultancy piece or where does that sit in the mix?

[00:33:12] Sara Fortier: Yeah. I mean that we, we don't charge for that, [00:33:15] but that is just a big part of like why our clients go to us versus, you [00:33:20] know, in Canada, like Deloitte, Accenture. Yeah. The really big companies that [00:33:25] also do this type of stuff, um, because we are niche and we can have [00:33:30] those strategic conversations about UX or service design or HCD resourcing [00:33:35] and like, what's the type of person you need right now?

[00:33:37] Sara Fortier: And like, yeah. Um. So we [00:33:40] do have those conversations whenever a client kind of comes to us and says, Hey, I need a UX designer, [00:33:45] or whatever the role is, right? And then kind of you try to probe deeper there, like, [00:33:50] why do you need them? What are they working on? Who are they working with? And it depends on the maturity of the [00:33:55] organization that you're working with.

[00:33:56] Sara Fortier: I mean. You know, I wouldn't insult like a, a [00:34:00] really strong director of UX by being like, nah, are you sure you know what you're doing [00:34:05] there with who you need? But you've got other clients who don't have that background, uh, [00:34:10] and they need a UX designer on their team, and that's where you can really. Sort of help [00:34:15] them craft who that team member is or how many people they need and what they should be doing.[00:34:20]

[00:34:20] Gerry Scullion: Can I, um, delve into a little bit more of that, that sandwich that I'm talking about? [00:34:25] Okay. Yeah. I've been in those before. Okay. Where. [00:34:30] You, you've spoken to somebody and it's all sounds really cool. And then you jump in. I'm [00:34:35] gonna keep up the sandwich metaphor. Okay. Right. Or the analogy, which one is it? I'm not too sure.

[00:34:39] Gerry Scullion: And [00:34:40] then you find yourself in the middle of that sandwich and you're saying, actually, I don't wanna be in the [00:34:45] sandwich anymore. This is a really bad situation to be in as. How, [00:34:50] from, how do you handle that from a business owner's perspective where you've kind of committed [00:34:55] to the relationship, you've got the contract in place, and then you've put somebody who you believe is [00:35:00] quite good and they're able to the situations quite well.

[00:35:03] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. And picking the to you and. [00:35:05] I am not gonna be able to survive here.

[00:35:07] Sara Fortier: Yeah.

[00:35:08] Gerry Scullion: That has to happen more often than not. [00:35:10] And low designer it does happen.

[00:35:11] Sara Fortier: It for sure happens.

[00:35:12] Gerry Scullion: Can I talk about that? Because we can paint the rosy picture of like [00:35:15] saying, Hey listen, you can make money by doing this.

[00:35:17] Sara Fortier: Yeah.

[00:35:17] Gerry Scullion: That is a reality.

[00:35:18] Gerry Scullion: It is very tough. [00:35:20] And you look at the statistics at the moment where designers and in particular researchers are burning out much [00:35:25] quicker than any other discipline design. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Walk me through how you can handle that. [00:35:30]

[00:35:30] Sara Fortier: Yeah, you're right. I, I often talk about the difference between, and I [00:35:35] feel like is whether, whether you're a design researcher, UX research, service designer, design strategist, [00:35:40] whatever the title is, but you're all kind of doing the same thing.

[00:35:42] Sara Fortier: Like, you know, you're working with the [00:35:45] fuzzy front end, the ambiguity and the stakeholder piece, and then the UX [00:35:50] designers, or the UX UI designers maybe have, and they might disagree a slightly [00:35:55] easier time. Um, yeah. But, uh, yeah, so. [00:36:00] Oh gosh, I lost the, the, it's hard. It's hard. Yeah.

[00:36:03] Gerry Scullion: Balancing those different pieces [00:36:05] because you're gonna have to let somebody down.

[00:36:08] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:36:10] Yeah. What can you do in those situations? Yeah.

[00:36:13] Sara Fortier: So how do we handle it? So we do, [00:36:15] again, so we do get those messages from, from our contractors sometimes and, and [00:36:20] I think. I always start with empathy because I've been in [00:36:25] those situations too. Yeah. I know what those projects are like. I know how hard it is.

[00:36:29] Sara Fortier: So [00:36:30] because we're designers, finding designers, we have designers in in house on, [00:36:35] on our staff, like we have those conversations with them that are just real. Like, tell me what's really [00:36:40] going on. Is your PO being really difficult? Is there a difficult stakeholder? How are you [00:36:45] navigating that? You know. Is there a toxicity in the team?

[00:36:48] Sara Fortier: Like just really try to get [00:36:50] to the root cause before saying, okay, while you're done, you're done. Like, you [00:36:55] know, it's really trying to actually understand and because we've been in those [00:37:00] situations, like we can ask the right questions to really try to get to like what's going on. [00:37:05] And then we do a lot of coaching, like, you know, I was on a [00:37:10] call not that long ago with a contractor talking about this very exact.

[00:37:14] Sara Fortier: [00:37:15] Type of problem. Um, and you know, I was talking to her about, you know, [00:37:20] how are you leading, like how are you showing up? You know, are you kind of being shy and pulling [00:37:25] back now because of these things that are. Happening? Or are you like stepping [00:37:30] up and are you also being empathetic to the other people?

[00:37:33] Sara Fortier: Right? Like yeah, we [00:37:35] can get really caught up in, oh, well they said this, they don't like me, they don't care about [00:37:40] this. Like research and you know, the work that I've been trying to do means nothing. [00:37:45] Like we have all these stories that we tell ourselves. So it's so much about mindset. So I think the first thing [00:37:50] that I do is.

[00:37:51] Sara Fortier: Talk to them for real as humans, what's going [00:37:55] on? Then try to coach them on mindset piece and how to navigate the [00:38:00] organization and give them really tactical tips that they could try first just to see if it improves the team [00:38:05] dynamics. And then I check, you know, we check in at like after 30 days. [00:38:10] Hey, how's it going?

[00:38:10] Sara Fortier: Has it improved at all? Did you try those things? Um, and. [00:38:15] In some cases, you can talk to the client, uh, you know about it and, and have some [00:38:20] say. And it really depends on who the client is and, and if they're, you [00:38:25] know, if they have the ability, they can try to move things. But sometimes if it's a PO or a [00:38:30] stakeholder, they can't do anything about

[00:38:32] Gerry Scullion: that.

[00:38:32] Gerry Scullion: The person who's bringing you in, and you have to say, listen, [00:38:35] and then you're almost letting the cat outta the bag because you're saying, we know they're not, they're not [00:38:40] happy, and they've told us you're not happy. And then it creates an extra layer. [00:38:45] Yeah. Stuff to navigate for them within the organization?

[00:38:47] Gerry Scullion: Yes.

[00:38:48] Sara Fortier: Yeah, so, so [00:38:50] that the, you know, we kind of, we let, we usually let our clients know if we feel like [00:38:55] they're, they're really struggling or there's a flight risk there. If it's someone who's just sort of saying like, [00:39:00] I don't know, it's, I'm kind of, it's not great. I'm not going anywhere right now. We might [00:39:05] wait on that and just see if we can help them through it.

[00:39:08] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Um, [00:39:10] yeah. What does success look like for, uh, a contractor [00:39:15] within outlet out, out Whitley? Sorry.

[00:39:18] Sara Fortier: Yeah, I mean, I [00:39:20] think for us, success is those people that can navigate stakeholders. Uh, [00:39:25] people who can jump into any situation, ramp up really quick. Uh, love [00:39:30] the juicy, messy stuff. And, um, they find their way.[00:39:35]

[00:39:35] Sara Fortier: Like you have to be as a contractor, very comfortable not being fully [00:39:40] onboarded with a really long ramp up plan. You know, you don't get a 30, 60, 90 day [00:39:45] plan when you're a contractor most of the time. Right. So you have to be. Totally [00:39:50] okay. Being a self-starter, like finding your own work to, to like, [00:39:55] you know, introduce yourself to stakeholders, have coffee chats with your team, especially if you're a remote contractor.[00:40:00]

[00:40:00] Sara Fortier: Yeah. Um, like it's on you to, to do that. Don't wait for somebody to assign you work. Don't [00:40:05] wait for somebody to say, Hey, do you wanna join this meeting? Like, insert yourself. [00:40:10] Absolutely. Um, so I think those, that's really important. When people start to hear your [00:40:15] voice and they get to know you, uh, that is also very good.

[00:40:19] Sara Fortier: I think when [00:40:20] you have people that are showing up too much like a, a lamb, let's say, [00:40:25] um, where they're being really quiet and they're not sort of [00:40:30] contributing to the conversation. Uh. That it, it, that [00:40:35] still can work because maybe that person is totally gonna be happy doing that and being [00:40:40] quiet and stuff like that.

[00:40:40] Sara Fortier: But if they're being quiet because they feel like they can't raise their voice, but they [00:40:45] internally they want to, that's another issue. Right. So, [00:40:50] um, anyway, that was a long ramble, but I feel like those are some things.

[00:40:52] Gerry Scullion: It is. And the reason why I was calling [00:40:55] that out, Sarah, is there's people listening here at the moment who.

[00:40:59] Gerry Scullion: May sense that in the, [00:41:00] in the near future, they may be retrenched made, redundant, whatever it's in. Yeah. [00:41:05] And it gives them an opportunity to really start positioning and thinking themselves. Okay. Well if, if [00:41:10] the future looks like it might be more of a gig economy, more contract, yeah. As a [00:41:15] thing. This is what's expected of you.

[00:41:17] Gerry Scullion: These, these are the things that you can get ahead of. [00:41:20] Um, and obviously if you're in Canada, you can contact Sarah and like Oh yeah, yeah, exactly. Through [00:41:25] those kind of o obvious connections to be made here in this podcast. But if you are out there and [00:41:30] you're anywhere in the world, like I've done contracting before, it is not the same as a [00:41:35] freelance piece.

[00:41:35] Gerry Scullion: It's not the same. As, uh, you know, going in into a [00:41:40] full-time role and just getting paid more money. Yeah. There's certain responsibilities that you have to be able to do. Yeah. [00:41:45] And you, you need to be a self-starter. Yeah. So it does favor, in my [00:41:50] experience, a certain behavioral type where people are a little bit more willing [00:41:55] to get outta their comfort zone.

[00:41:56] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. To. Be more vulnerable I guess, as well. [00:42:00] Yeah. And, and try new things. Um, but generally speaking that's the [00:42:05] business model that you're going after at the moment. Yeah. At out Whitley. So yeah. I wish you the very [00:42:10] best of luck, uh, Sarah, in all of this. It sounds like you're doing. You don't need any [00:42:15] look, you don't need any wire.

[00:42:16] Gerry Scullion: Boom. But, uh, if people want [00:42:20] to follow your journey, I know you're talking about a rebrand and all of this kind of stuff, hope you haven't let the cat outta the [00:42:25] bag, but yeah, if they wanna follow you, what's the best way for them to do that? [00:42:30]

[00:42:30] Sara Fortier: Yeah, uh, definitely on my LinkedIn. So just, uh, Sarah Fortier on LinkedIn [00:42:35] and uh, you're

[00:42:35] Gerry Scullion: at LinkedIn optimized.

[00:42:37] Sara Fortier: Yes it

[00:42:37] Gerry Scullion: is. I'm gonna check that now to make sure. [00:42:40] I'll put a link to your LinkedIn on, uh, the show notes [00:42:45] and, um, I'll also put a link to out whitley.com.

[00:42:48] Sara Fortier: Yeah, that's great.

[00:42:49] Gerry Scullion: And if you're [00:42:50] in the area of Winnipeg, do you Yes. Any other major cities in Canada [00:42:55] yet?

[00:42:55] Sara Fortier: Well, uh, yeah, we're, we are North America, so, uh, we have.[00:43:00]

[00:43:00] Sara Fortier: Clients all across the US or across Canada. So, uh,

[00:43:02] Gerry Scullion: congratulations. Yeah. The best story. [00:43:05] It is, it's brilliant to hear.

[00:43:06] Sara Fortier: Yeah.

[00:43:07] Gerry Scullion: You know that there's businesses that have come outta that to the [00:43:10] second one today. Um, I've met, were literally post COVID. There's just been this [00:43:15] opportunity. Yeah. Capitalize it. So, absolutely.

[00:43:17] Gerry Scullion: Hats off to you.

[00:43:18] Sara Fortier: Oh,

[00:43:18] Gerry Scullion: thank you. Fantastic to speak to [00:43:20] you. Just wish you the very best of luck. Thank you. You too.

[00:43:24] Sara Fortier: Thanks for having me [00:43:25] [00:43:30] on.