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Interviews with top marketers sharing tactical tips, strategies, and lessons learned to help you grow your business. Hosted by Dave Gerhardt, founder of Exit Five, former CMO, and author of Founder Brand. Learn more at exitfive.com
Dave [0:00:01]: You're listening to the Dave Gerhardt Show.
Dave [0:00:17]: Eddie on the pod.
Dave [0:00:18]: I invited Eddie to come on the pod because Eddie is a great copywriter, and I love talking to people with copywriting backgrounds because a lot of the things that it takes to be a great copywriter are rooted in the principles of what makes good marketing in general.
Dave [0:00:33]: And good business in general.
Dave [0:00:35]: And Eddie always has a creative lens and an interesting way of looking at things, and so we're texting about the pot.
Dave [0:00:41]: Like, I made...
Dave [0:00:41]: I made some slides.
Dave [0:00:42]: I get a whole thing We're gonna go through and I'm like, yes.
Dave [0:00:44]: This is what I'm talking about.
Eddie [0:00:46]: Nice.
Eddie [0:00:46]: Well, I appreciate that, dave.
Eddie [0:00:48]: And let me just say it's great to be with you as well.
Eddie [0:00:51]: I appreciate you very much.
Eddie [0:00:53]: You know, you were one of the first people to to show up consistently on Linkedin and and turned it into a platform for yourself and and turned it into a place where a place that enabled you to to grow an audience and build a business and and so much of what you were saying was bolstering copywriting.
Eddie [0:01:11]: Right?
Eddie [0:01:12]: And it was bolstering copywriter.
Eddie [0:01:13]: And so I appreciate you very much for for what you did to to promote this discipline and and the people that practice it, and myself included.
Eddie [0:01:20]: You've you've inspired me in a lot of other people.
Eddie [0:01:22]: So I appreciate you, man.
Eddie [0:01:23]: Thanks again.
Eddie [0:01:24]: It's great to be here.
Dave [0:01:26]: Yeah.
Dave [0:01:26]: Dude.
Dave [0:01:26]: Thanks.
Dave [0:01:26]: That's cool.
Dave [0:01:27]: I appreciate that brother.
Dave [0:01:28]: Yeah.
Dave [0:01:29]: You're like, you worked you worked in house as a as a copywriter.
Dave [0:01:31]: You know, you you did all that stuff.
Dave [0:01:33]: You give people a quick quick background because I I know you from...
Dave [0:01:36]: We got connected when you were working at g two, but I wasn't super familiar with your background until last time we talked.
Dave [0:01:41]: And I think that's just interesting context for people to have.
Eddie [0:01:45]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:01:45]: For sure.
Eddie [0:01:45]: So, yeah, I was an English major.
Eddie [0:01:47]: I wanted to be a writer.
Eddie [0:01:48]: I wanted to write books in know.
Eddie [0:01:50]: And so my first job out of college was not ready books.
Eddie [0:01:53]: It was sales.
Dave [0:01:58]: It's like, everyone's life story ever you're like, so.
Dave [0:02:01]: As a kid, I wanted to be in the Nba, and then my first job out of school with sales.
Dave [0:02:06]: I wanna be a music producer and then I went into sales.
Dave [0:02:09]: We've all done the same shit.
Dave [0:02:11]: Like, I...
Dave [0:02:12]: That's what I think it's so fun about this this world that we've created beyond marketing.
Dave [0:02:15]: You meet all these are people so few people actually were like, you know, when I was a child I wanted to be at CMO.
Eddie [0:02:22]: Yes.
Eddie [0:02:22]: Yes.
Eddie [0:02:23]: Well, yeah.
Eddie [0:02:24]: You definitely work up to something like that.
Eddie [0:02:25]: But, you know, like, writing was such a romantic thing for me.
Eddie [0:02:28]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:02:28]: And but it's such an impossible thing to just do.
Eddie [0:02:31]: Right out of school.
Eddie [0:02:33]: I mean, the you gotta you gotta build up to it.
Dave [0:02:36]: Well, it's a...
Dave [0:02:36]: Also, you came out in a different era now, like, that was pre subs stack.
Dave [0:02:40]: You know, like, today, I think you could you could maybe make it...
Dave [0:02:43]: The the chance of making it as a writer maybe are are higher because of the tools available.
Eddie [0:02:47]: That's true.
Eddie [0:02:47]: That's very true.
Eddie [0:02:48]: But certainly not when I graduated.
Eddie [0:02:50]: I graduated in two thousand ten.
Eddie [0:02:52]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:02:52]: So I was in inside I was in inside sales at Cd and account manager for about a year, really did not did not like that job.
Eddie [0:03:00]: It was a good job, but I really didn't like it.
Eddie [0:03:02]: I really wanted to write So I I left that job, which again, it was a good job.
Eddie [0:03:07]: Like, it paid well.
Eddie [0:03:08]: I had insurance, perks time off, but I left it on a whim for my first copyright gig, which was a contract role no insurance, no benefits, pretty bad pay to be honest, but I was writing for a living.
Eddie [0:03:23]: So that was that was a win for me.
Eddie [0:03:24]: And at first, I didn't even realize I was I was writing copy, Like, it was this new department at a big company.
Eddie [0:03:29]: It was called career builder.
Eddie [0:03:30]: So it's basically a job board website.
Eddie [0:03:33]: And my job was to interview hiring managers and write their job ads for them.
Eddie [0:03:40]: And they hired me on the back of my English degree.
Eddie [0:03:43]: They were like, oh, you know.
Eddie [0:03:44]: You're an English major, You know you could put a sentence together and they gave me this job.
Eddie [0:03:48]: Yep.
Eddie [0:03:49]: And so they didn't really think of these job ads, as ads, I think, like, that shouldn't entice people to apply, like, in a traditional sense of an ad.
Eddie [0:03:59]: They were just looking for young people with robotic writing experience to put words on a page and and make it dramatically correct and stuff, you know.
Eddie [0:04:08]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:04:09]: And so that's kinda how I treated it until it became really clear to me that my worth and that role, was based on how many times I can get people to click and apply for the position.
Eddie [0:04:20]: So in other words, like, my job was to write something that would ultimately compel the right person to take an action, and that in a nutshell is direct response copywriting.
Eddie [0:04:32]: So that's all I discovered this discipline, and then I became completely obsessed with it and started reading books and and listening to podcasts and seminars and just, you know, learning as much as I could And to make sure that I was internal the information, every time I came into an insight, you know, some principle or or technique or concept that I could use at work or that I thought I could use at work, I I would try to right about it.
Eddie [0:04:58]: We're explaining in an article because I thought I could write about is.
Dave [0:05:02]: I love this story.
Dave [0:05:03]: It's making me just realize, like, that is...
Dave [0:05:05]: What you just describe is just like marketing and so many people do this.
Dave [0:05:09]: You know, Brendan calls it a checkbox marketing.
Dave [0:05:12]: I like that phrase that he that he uses Brendan Hu.
Dave [0:05:15]: And and the same thing.
Dave [0:05:17]: It's like, okay.
Dave [0:05:17]: So you work this company.
Dave [0:05:18]: Yeah.
Dave [0:05:18]: We just need some guy to, like, write job posting because we need to hire somebody.
Dave [0:05:21]: Yeah.
Dave [0:05:22]: But then you actually realized that, like, the variables like, wait.
Dave [0:05:25]: If I make a good...
Dave [0:05:27]: If I make this good, if I make this fun, funny, catchy, creative, it could be any of those things, you're, like, people are actually gonna stop and reply, and I'm like, dude that that's the same thing I love about marketing.
Dave [0:05:38]: And but so many things that we do.
Dave [0:05:40]: It's like, oh, we gotta do the company's webinar.
Dave [0:05:42]: So you write the webinar...
Dave [0:05:43]: And it's, like, it's always this constant Like, how am I gonna actually get someone to respond to this dude.
Dave [0:05:48]: I think about this now, I coach my kid's Little league team.
Dave [0:05:51]: And when I send out an email to the parents, I'm, like, how can I get there?
Dave [0:05:56]: I literally I'm like, okay.
Dave [0:05:57]: There's these are eight other parent, busy like me.
Dave [0:05:59]: The last thing they want is another freaking email about their kids at a...
Dave [0:06:02]: So how can I send this thing them to them in a format that's gonna get them to, like, read it, understand the details, not have any questions and, like, I apply that to, like, those things too, writing emails to my kids school?
Dave [0:06:13]: Those are, like, timeless.
Dave [0:06:14]: Right?
Dave [0:06:14]: And that...
Dave [0:06:14]: That's why I love this this topic.
Dave [0:06:16]: So it's cool to hear you as, like, A young guy just being like, dude fuck it?
Dave [0:06:19]: Like, why do...
Dave [0:06:20]: Why am I gonna do what they have always done?
Dave [0:06:21]: At least I'm gonna try to, like, get someone to respond here.
Eddie [0:06:24]: Yes.
Eddie [0:06:24]: Well, I...
Eddie [0:06:25]: I wanted to be successful.
Eddie [0:06:27]: And it was clear to me that to be successful.
Eddie [0:06:30]: I needed people to applied to the job ads that I was writing.
Eddie [0:06:33]: I mean, that's how it all started.
Eddie [0:06:34]: And then, like, it it started a snowball from there.
Eddie [0:06:36]: But, yeah.
Eddie [0:06:38]: I mean, so, you know, that's how VeryGoodCopy started.
Eddie [0:06:40]: As I was writing these these articles.
Eddie [0:06:42]: And trying to teach myself copywriting, and it started...
Eddie [0:06:46]: It was a a long Google Doc at first for years and years, actually.
Eddie [0:06:49]: It was, you know, fifty, sixty, seventy of these articles that I was putting into Google Doc not showing anybody.
Eddie [0:06:55]: And then I finally did show somebody and they were like, you should put this online.
Dave [0:06:59]: Oh, so you were just like, writing your own stuff.
Dave [0:07:01]: You're, like, the things you were learning about writing, you were just kinda comp piling into this, like, master doc and it was just for you?
Eddie [0:07:08]: Just put it into a doc.
Dave [0:07:09]: That's cool.
Eddie [0:07:10]: You know, I was an English major.
Eddie [0:07:11]: So I studied narrative and and so a lot of it came out as, like, you know, I was framing these copywriting concepts and and principles in personal stories.
Eddie [0:07:18]: You know, something that happened to me that day, something that was going on in my life with my family with my friends.
Eddie [0:07:23]: I was putting it into these stories.
Eddie [0:07:25]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:07:26]: Because that's kinda what I was trying to do with school.
Eddie [0:07:28]: And I didn't think that anybody would be interested in and then because they were about me and my life.
Eddie [0:07:34]: And and so I didn't really have that perspective on it, But then somebody saw me writing one at a job.
Eddie [0:07:40]: I was working at a bunch of agencies for a few years and somebody saw me writing one, and they were like, oh, can I read this, I gave them the doc?
Eddie [0:07:48]: They said they read it over the weekend, and they were like, you should put this online.
Eddie [0:07:51]: So I made a blog and then somebody from Hubspot Reddit, and they gave me a call a Hubspot, and I started writing the Hubspot Home, and then people from Hubspot, Were coming over, like, readers from Hubspot Were coming over and reading my blog and asking where they could subscribe And it wasn't a newsletter.
Eddie [0:08:08]: Yet.
Eddie [0:08:08]: So they couldn't subscribe.
Eddie [0:08:10]: So I made that.
Eddie [0:08:11]: I made a mailchimp, and and I think Mailchimp had, like, a two thousand...
Dave [0:08:16]: It was free.
Eddie [0:08:17]: You could have people aren't subscribers free.
Eddie [0:08:18]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:08:18]: Yep.
Eddie [0:08:19]: I was like, all this is great.
Eddie [0:08:20]: I'm never gonna pay for this shit.
Eddie [0:08:21]: You know, Totally.
Eddie [0:08:23]: But now it's just ironic because now, you know, it's newsletter is probably my...
Eddie [0:08:28]: The list is probably my biggest business expense.
Eddie [0:08:30]: So...
Dave [0:08:31]: Yeah.
Dave [0:08:31]: Do you have, like, something, like, ninety thousand of You have a hundred thousand subscribers learning on that?
Eddie [0:08:35]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:08:35]: It's been...
Eddie [0:08:36]: The total numbers is up there.
Eddie [0:08:38]: I set it to less than that, but that's after I clean the list and and make sure it's really healthy.
Dave [0:08:44]: The bane of our existence we're learning.
Dave [0:08:45]: Literally Yeah.
Eddie [0:08:47]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:08:47]: That's credit this part of the business.
Dave [0:08:49]: And then, like, we're, like, we're sending this email out That's, like, if you haven't...
Dave [0:08:52]: Oh, we've noticed you haven't been engaged with our newsletter, so we're gonna take you off the list and, like, a bunch of people like no wait.
Dave [0:08:58]: I I am.
Dave [0:08:58]: I just don't click anything.
Dave [0:08:59]: It's like, oh shit,
Eddie [0:09:00]: there's this such a there's
Dave [0:09:01]: so many layers to the email anyway.
Dave [0:09:03]: That's that's a side note.
Eddie [0:09:05]: That's cool.
Dave [0:09:06]: And it so it's been this constant...
Dave [0:09:07]: It's been this constant progression.
Dave [0:09:09]: Like, I think it's cool.
Dave [0:09:10]: A lot of people, you know, like oh, how did you start...
Dave [0:09:13]: You know, the the starting story for a lot of people is, like, there's never some intentional path to, like, make money writing online and writing, you know, teaching people about writing.
Dave [0:09:22]: You, like, you did it for your own benefit.
Dave [0:09:25]: It's like, literally a founder a founder building a software, but, you know, piece of software, like, solve their own problem.
Dave [0:09:30]: You built your master doc and someone told you is interesting.
Dave [0:09:33]: That's cool.
Eddie [0:09:34]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:09:34]: It was it was a real half stance organic thing.
Eddie [0:09:37]: And I think it actually helped me because right now, there's a lot of folks that are trying to, like, reverse engineer.
Eddie [0:09:42]: A number.
Eddie [0:09:43]: You know, They'll they'll go online.
Eddie [0:09:45]: And they'll say, I want a a hundred thousand subscribers or a hundred thousand followers or something, and they'll they'll do everything they can to the content to get that attention and get the get those followers.
Eddie [0:09:55]: And and so, fundamentally, the content becomes something con.
Eddie [0:10:00]: It's something that maybe that they didn't set out to to create in the first place.
Eddie [0:10:04]: Whereas, like, I didn't really have that ambition in the beginning to to build a brand or an audience or anything like that to have a platform, And so it was very original to me and I think that came through and and help me ultimately.
Eddie [0:10:17]: But...
Dave [0:10:19]: Okay.
Dave [0:10:19]: Do you wanna talk about you you sent me a link to this Linkedin thing that I wrote about the narrative is shifting on Ai.
Dave [0:10:25]: Yeah.
Dave [0:10:25]: Do you wanna talk about that, and then that will lead into some stuff you wanna show?
Dave [0:10:29]: Sure.
Dave [0:10:30]: Or how do you how you tell me you tell me, I I don't know what you have.
Dave [0:10:33]: So you tell me how you want...
Dave [0:10:33]: What where you wanna go?
Eddie [0:10:35]: Okay.
Eddie [0:10:35]: So you've put this post out last week.
Eddie [0:10:38]: Talk you know, basically, you talk about how you're noticing more and more people push back on Ai in the last couple of months.
Dave [0:10:48]: Yeah.
Dave [0:10:48]: I'll just explain this.
Dave [0:10:49]: So and if you're for watching on on our Youtube, but, it has this this post up.
Dave [0:10:53]: But I've wrote this post last week, and I said the narrative is shifting on Ai.
Dave [0:10:58]: Have you noticed.
Dave [0:10:58]: And basically, the feeling is, I felt, like, over the last sixty days in particular, there's been more of a more of...
Dave [0:11:06]: A gru that I'm feeling from our community from marketers in our universe just like...
Dave [0:11:11]: That's less like, Ai is awesome and more like, you know what?
Dave [0:11:14]: Screw Ai.
Dave [0:11:14]: I'm tired of this.
Dave [0:11:15]: I'm tired of this writing.
Dave [0:11:16]: I'm tired of this slap.
Dave [0:11:17]: Like, there's they're starting to be a a something shifting.
Dave [0:11:19]: And and so we We up doing a survey on this just to get sentiment on it, but I'm feeling this in my personal life and work.
Dave [0:11:26]: And so I think there's a lot of power that's coming with Ai, but I do feel like there's something shifting in the last sixty days.
Eddie [0:11:35]: Right.
Eddie [0:11:35]: Exactly.
Eddie [0:11:35]: And then...
Eddie [0:11:36]: And so at the bottom here, you ask, you know, why do you think that is?
Eddie [0:11:39]: And so so that's what this presentation is, I'm gonna try to answer that question right now.
Eddie [0:11:44]: At least from the perspective of And a marketer.
Dave [0:11:48]: Alright.
Dave [0:11:48]: I'm I'm into that Let's one guy perspective.
Dave [0:11:51]: Take me.
Dave [0:11:51]: Take me.
Dave [0:11:52]: Take me on a journey.
Eddie [0:11:53]: So let me take you.
Eddie [0:11:54]: Let me take you back to twenty twenty one.
Eddie [0:11:56]: My wife was pregnant with her first baby, and my sister recommended we put something called a a nose free on the register.
Eddie [0:12:05]: Do you know what a nose free is, stiff?
Dave [0:12:08]: I, okay.
Dave [0:12:08]: I do.
Dave [0:12:09]: And so nose free...
Dave [0:12:10]: Everyone thought we were nuts when we were doing free to?
Dave [0:12:13]: Now my sister's got a kid, There's, like, year...
Dave [0:12:15]: Five, six years of technology technologies evolved.
Dave [0:12:17]: You don't have to suck it anymore.
Dave [0:12:18]: You just put that thing in there it goes, you seem, like, the new one?
Eddie [0:12:22]: No.
Eddie [0:12:22]: No.
Eddie [0:12:22]: No.
Eddie [0:12:23]: I'm gonna need to.
Dave [0:12:24]: My voice.
Dave [0:12:25]: Oh, my god.
Dave [0:12:25]: Both of my kids man.
Dave [0:12:26]: And but it's the we're most weirdly satisfying thing too.
Dave [0:12:31]: When you can get over the gross factor when you clear that nose out and they can breathe again.
Dave [0:12:34]: Oh, man.
Dave [0:12:34]: Alright.
Eddie [0:12:36]: So for...
Eddie [0:12:36]: So but the folks that don't...
Dave [0:12:38]: I gotta tell...
Dave [0:12:38]: I gotta take a screenshot this and put it in our slack.
Dave [0:12:40]: We go Nice.
Dave [0:12:41]: Yeah.
Dave [0:12:41]: If if you don't know what
Eddie [0:12:42]: it knows for it is, it's a tube that you can use to suck out your kids boo when they're congested.
Eddie [0:12:48]: Okay?
Eddie [0:12:49]: So, like, and my sister, we kinda have, like, the reverse situation in her day.
Eddie [0:12:52]: Like, my sister had kids first.
Eddie [0:12:54]: She's got three kids, and she was explaining to me tube how sanitary it is, you know, how there's, like, a a boo catcher in the middle.
Eddie [0:13:01]: So nothing ever goes in your mouth.
Eddie [0:13:03]: Like you're just there to provide the suction, which people you don't even need to do anything anymore...
Dave [0:13:06]: Looks way more primitive than it actually is.
Eddie [0:13:09]: Right.
Eddie [0:13:09]: Right.
Eddie [0:13:09]: And and I remember just being, like, no.
Eddie [0:13:11]: My thought was like, I'm never going to do that.
Eddie [0:13:14]: You know?
Eddie [0:13:14]: My child said he was, like, I'm I'm not gonna do that.
Eddie [0:13:17]: And I remember that moment really vividly because after our sun was born when when he was about four months old, I was laying down on the couch, and I was holding him up.
Eddie [0:13:27]: And I was moving him up and down, and and we were laughing and just, you know, kinda having a good time.
Eddie [0:13:33]: And then out of nowhere, this perfect cylinder of a hot partially digested breast milk comes out of his mouth.
Eddie [0:13:41]: For projectile,
Dave [0:13:43]: slipping it
Eddie [0:13:44]: up straight into my mouth.
Eddie [0:13:45]: There was no village whatsoever.
Eddie [0:13:48]: I feel like...
Eddie [0:13:49]: I don't think a drop of it was lost.
Eddie [0:13:50]: It just goes directly, out of his stomach and straight into my mouth.
Eddie [0:13:54]: Yeah Then.
Eddie [0:13:55]: And The thing is, like, I wasn't...
Eddie [0:13:56]: I wasn't bothered by it.
Eddie [0:13:58]: Right?
Eddie [0:13:58]: It was just another Wednesday to me.
Eddie [0:14:01]: You know what I mean?
Dave [0:14:02]: Dude it, I would have a such a weird, like, I could never be a vomit or poop guy.
Dave [0:14:07]: And I was like, there's no way.
Dave [0:14:09]: There's no way I'm gonna be able to clean up my kids sp.
Dave [0:14:11]: And there's just something about it.
Dave [0:14:12]: When it's yours, it's like it is what it is, you know?
Eddie [0:14:15]: Right.
Eddie [0:14:15]: And and what made it even more interesting was that a few months prior, I couldn't even wrap my mind around a nose frida.
Eddie [0:14:21]: Right?
Eddie [0:14:22]: And now here I am, like, eating my son spit up.
Eddie [0:14:24]: And and that was okay.
Eddie [0:14:25]: And I didn't skip a beat and, you know, we laughed about it.
Eddie [0:14:28]: And my wife laughed at me basically.
Eddie [0:14:29]: And then we, you know, we have dinner.
Eddie [0:14:31]: And so, like, it it just goes to show the Warp speed, like, transformation that we go through.
Eddie [0:14:36]: As parents.
Eddie [0:14:37]: And for me, that transformation began on August second twenty twenty one, that's the morning, Kelsey water broke.
Eddie [0:14:46]: So we went to the hospital and went through Triage, and we...
Eddie [0:14:51]: We...
Eddie [0:14:52]: We met our nurse, and we got settled into the delivery room, and we were told that this could be a long process, so we should get comfortable.
Eddie [0:15:00]: And, like, unfortunately, getting comfortable with pretty much impossible for Kelsey, but, you know, I didn't let that stop me.
Eddie [0:15:09]: Like, I came prepared.
Eddie [0:15:10]: I had downloaded Netflix on my phone.
Eddie [0:15:12]: I had my snacks.
Eddie [0:15:13]: I had my drinks.
Eddie [0:15:14]: Like there was a nice recliner in the corner.
Eddie [0:15:16]: So I I have...
Dave [0:15:19]: The dad chase.
Eddie [0:15:19]: I settled it in.
Eddie [0:15:20]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:15:21]: You know what Not talking about that...
Dave [0:15:23]: We have a whole hold.
Dave [0:15:23]: My my friends on, we have a whole...
Dave [0:15:25]: The boy...
Dave [0:15:26]: The boys chat.
Dave [0:15:26]: We all have a group text, which is become a joke now.
Dave [0:15:29]: And Gosh.
Dave [0:15:31]: This is a perfect example If like I wrote this on Linkedin, that people would come from me with the pitch forbes, but if you can't hear the Nuance and understand it's a
Eddie [0:15:37]: joke.
Eddie [0:15:37]: Yeah.
Dave [0:15:37]: There's a whole there's a whole reddit thread of, like, you know, dad back, like, you know, women have to go through giving birth but, like, we have to sleep in this believe to spend two nights sleeping in this got off the chair, Like, what's what's actually more painful.
Eddie [0:15:49]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:15:49]: I know about of it.
Eddie [0:15:50]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:15:50]: But anyway, so that, you know, I made the most of that.
Eddie [0:15:53]: And I I I remember I turned down the lights, and I I put my phones and it was actually really peaceful in the room
Dave [0:15:59]: Of podcast.
Eddie [0:16:00]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:16:00]: Hell, yeah.
Eddie [0:16:00]: And it it was the it was the strangest thing though, because as soon as I pressed, it was Netflix.
Eddie [0:16:05]: As soon as I pressed, play on my phone and alarm went off.
Eddie [0:16:09]: And it was so confusing.
Eddie [0:16:11]: Like my actually, my first thought was, like, am I not allowed to watch Netflix while my wife...
Eddie [0:16:17]: Like, I thought they were calling me out almost.
Eddie [0:16:19]: And then I was like no, obviously, there's a there's a fire this a firearm because it was loud and and and piercing, and and there was this kinda of red life flashing with the door.
Eddie [0:16:28]: And so I thought there was a fire.
Eddie [0:16:30]: And then and then the nurse walked in.
Eddie [0:16:32]: And then another nurse and another and then the doctors started coming in.
Eddie [0:16:36]: And the room just started filling up really fast.
Eddie [0:16:40]: It was like a swat team of of medical professionals.
Eddie [0:16:43]: And then and then suddenly, there were, like, probably a dozen people in the room.
Eddie [0:16:47]: And the nurses were surrounding my wife and they, you know, began shifting her this way in that way, and there was just this this feeling that, like, this dread.
Eddie [0:16:59]: Right?
Eddie [0:16:59]: And I was kinda, like, backed into a corner And somebody pulled my sleeve and was a doctor, and she said that the baby's heart rate had plummeted.
Eddie [0:17:08]: I remember that was the word she used.
Eddie [0:17:09]: Just really alarming.
Eddie [0:17:11]: And then I looked at the modern and the screen was all lit up red.
Eddie [0:17:15]: And this all happened in, like, a matter of seconds.
Eddie [0:17:19]: Like, one minute, my wife was resting comfortably, and it was peaceful, and she was like, about to fall asleep, and the next she was, like, on her knees and and being coached through this this emergency.
Eddie [0:17:29]: And before I could really, like, process what this meant.
Eddie [0:17:33]: Like, the screens turned back to green, and the alarm stopped.
Eddie [0:17:37]: Mh.
Eddie [0:17:37]: And everybody just kinda took a step back and turned around and walked out and the room cleared out basically as quickly as it had filled up.
Eddie [0:17:44]: And then it was just me and my wife and the doctor and and she told us that the umbilical cord was probably wrapped around the baby's neck and that it was an incredibly volatile and and dangerous situation that if it happened again, Kelsey would would need an emergency c section.
Eddie [0:18:00]: And then and then it did happen again.
Eddie [0:18:02]: And this Swat team came back, and the whole process repeated itself, and then it was green again.
Eddie [0:18:08]: And then it happened again after that, The the red screen came back.
Eddie [0:18:14]: And that's when the doctor was like, okay.
Eddie [0:18:16]: We have to do this.
Eddie [0:18:17]: And my wife signed the release form, and then they...
Eddie [0:18:21]: Just like that rolled her out of the room and told me to wait and said that, you know, we'll be back for you when she's ready.
Eddie [0:18:28]: And I remember sitting there, alone in that room and feeling completely helpless in a way.
Eddie [0:18:34]: Like, there was nothing I could do to make that situation better, and I was just there.
Eddie [0:18:38]: Mh.
Eddie [0:18:39]: And I remember the weight of this the weight of this realization, it just came on so suddenly, so intensely, and was so so heavy.
Eddie [0:18:48]: And it made me sick.
Eddie [0:18:50]: And I'm not, like, we were talking about religion Dave, and, like, I'm not a religious person.
Eddie [0:18:54]: Like, it.
Eddie [0:18:55]: I said, I I was a pretty secular life, but, like, in that moment, like, with my back against the wall.
Eddie [0:19:00]: I actually started to pray.
Eddie [0:19:02]: And I had no idea like what I was doing.
Eddie [0:19:04]: You know, I didn't know how to talk to god, so I didn't started a barter with them.
Eddie [0:19:08]: I was like, Yeah.
Eddie [0:19:09]: Not please.
Dave [0:19:10]: I've done that.
Dave [0:19:11]: I'm like look, man.
Dave [0:19:11]: I don't really come here much.
Eddie [0:19:13]: I would I knock every b out of this kid's nose until he's eighteen, like, please just let everything be okay.
Eddie [0:19:20]: And then he was born.
Eddie [0:19:21]: And I remember the doctor lifting up.
Eddie [0:19:25]: And I got my first glimpse of them over the blue curtain in the operating room because it was a c section, and I...
Eddie [0:19:31]: And I instantly recognized them.
Eddie [0:19:33]: Like, I I remember it it...
Eddie [0:19:34]: Like, it actually took my breath away, and I gasp because it just felt like I knew his face.
Eddie [0:19:38]: I was like, yep.
Eddie [0:19:39]: Know what I mean?
Eddie [0:19:40]: Like, when you...
Eddie [0:19:41]: I remember think it was, like, when you run into somebody that you haven't seen in a long time, and they've changed.
Eddie [0:19:46]: You know what I mean, like, of court, like, time has changed them, But, you know, they're they're the same person.
Eddie [0:19:51]: You and you see it.
Dave [0:19:53]: Like, you see that guy from high school that put on, like, two hundred pounds.
Dave [0:19:55]: You're like, whoa.
Dave [0:19:56]: But, yeah, No It's him.
Eddie [0:19:58]: Yes.
Eddie [0:19:58]: Yeah...
Eddie [0:19:59]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:19:59]: Except it was just...
Eddie [0:20:00]: It was my baby.
Eddie [0:20:01]: It was like my kid.
Dave [0:20:02]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:20:03]: And, I just felt like I knew him.
Dave [0:20:04]: Surreal real.
Dave [0:20:05]: Dude.
Eddie [0:20:06]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:20:06]: And they they moved him into this into the small room, and it was adjacent to...
Eddie [0:20:11]: It was adjacent to the Or r, and that's where they, like, clean them up and and measure them and weigh them.
Eddie [0:20:16]: And then the nurse asked me to come in.
Eddie [0:20:18]: And this is where I'll stop, and I'll reference a certain experiment I did a few years ago, after he was born, I asked Ai to describe the birth of its first born child.
Eddie [0:20:31]: And then that's what I do.
Eddie [0:20:34]: And then I...
Eddie [0:20:34]: And then I challenged myself to write my own version, but using only as many words as the Ai.
Eddie [0:20:41]: So the Ai came up with eighty eight words.
Eddie [0:20:45]: I'll read it for here.
Eddie [0:20:47]: Wrote, meeting my first born child was a truly magical experience.
Eddie [0:20:51]: It was a moment of joy and excitement that I will never forget.
Eddie [0:20:55]: When I held my newborn for the first time, I felt a wave of love and warmth that I had not experienced before.
Eddie [0:21:01]: I was filled with so much joy and pride that I was now apparent.
Eddie [0:21:04]: My little one looks so peaceful content in my arms, seeing my baby for the first time was an unforgettable moment that I will cherish forever.
Eddie [0:21:12]: And then since the...
Dave [0:21:15]: Project feels it feels yucky knowing that it came from a computer.
Eddie [0:21:19]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:21:19]: I feel you, man.
Eddie [0:21:20]: But that...
Eddie [0:21:21]: That's the eighty eight words.
Eddie [0:21:22]: So since Ai wrote eighty eight words, I wrote eighty eight words.
Eddie [0:21:25]: And I wrote, he's so quiet.
Eddie [0:21:28]: I said, looking can Put the nurse.
Eddie [0:21:29]: She smiled behind her mask.
Eddie [0:21:31]: We all wore masks.
Eddie [0:21:32]: Gowns too gloves and hair nets too.
Eddie [0:21:34]: Is that okay?
Eddie [0:21:35]: I said, is it okay?
Eddie [0:21:36]: He's not crying.
Eddie [0:21:36]: Why isn't he crying yet.
Eddie [0:21:38]: It's okay.
Eddie [0:21:39]: So the nurse.
Eddie [0:21:39]: He's quiet, but alert.
Eddie [0:21:41]: She said, just look at him looking at you.
Eddie [0:21:43]: I looked.
Eddie [0:21:44]: He's looking right at you.
Eddie [0:21:45]: He was.
Eddie [0:21:46]: He was looking into my eyes.
Eddie [0:21:47]: He's saying hello.
Eddie [0:21:48]: She smiled.
Eddie [0:21:49]: Hello.
Eddie [0:21:49]: I said, I felt I crying.
Eddie [0:21:51]: Hello son.
Dave [0:21:53]: That's beautiful.
Eddie [0:21:55]: I put this online.
Eddie [0:21:56]: This kinda side by side comparison and the response was was pretty overwhelming.
Eddie [0:22:00]: And got hundreds of thousands of of impressions in the first day and thousands of likes and hundreds of comments and and the Dms and the emails, and so it's it was really overwhelming actually.
Eddie [0:22:11]: And the general consensus was that my version was better.
Eddie [0:22:15]: Okay?
Eddie [0:22:15]: And I think the answer to why it's better is the same answer to your question in this post.
Eddie [0:22:23]: Dave like, around what why is there more and more back to Ai, especially among people who work in, you know, in marketing and copywriting and and and persuasion.
Eddie [0:22:31]: But first, if if a school with you, if if you want, so Like, could break down some of the more technical things and then circle back to the big picture.
Eddie [0:22:39]: Sorry?
Dave [0:22:41]: Yeah.
Dave [0:22:41]: Yeah.
Dave [0:22:41]: This remind a related thing.
Dave [0:22:43]: I don't know if you saw this, but some guy...
Dave [0:22:45]: It's not the exact thing, but it's interesting.
Dave [0:22:48]: Sorry.
Dave [0:22:48]: This guy posted he posted a picture of a Monet painting.
Dave [0:22:52]: Do you see this?
Dave [0:22:53]: No.
Dave [0:22:54]: So Guy took an actual Monet painting and he posted on on x, and then...
Dave [0:22:59]: But he said, he said, this, hey, I just generated an Ai image in the style of a Monet painting.
Dave [0:23:03]: Please describe in as much detail possible, which makes us inferior than a real Mona painting.
Dave [0:23:08]: And all the comments, everyone was, like, because it was framed as Ai.
Dave [0:23:12]: Everyone was like, oh, you can tell.
Eddie [0:23:15]: Look at the left...
Eddie [0:23:15]: Look at
Dave [0:23:16]: the left corner here, like, this brush mark is off that, And then later, here he was like, no, was that's the actual mode.
Eddie [0:23:22]: Right.
Eddie [0:23:22]: Well, that's that's an interesting conversation as well, but it's also your tricking people.
Eddie [0:23:29]: You know, and they're like, there's a...
Eddie [0:23:30]: There's...
Eddie [0:23:31]: I think there's a lot...
Eddie [0:23:32]: There's a lot of gray there But I think when it comes to writing specifically, and this isn't this isn't the big thing, but I think it's the obvious thing around the writing being better.
Eddie [0:23:43]: The Ai version is just telling us things.
Eddie [0:23:47]: This is kinda where I think it it differs from from art or, like, you know, other disciplines.
Eddie [0:23:51]: Like, the Ai version just telling us things, whereas the human version is is kinda filled with things that make writing feel...
Eddie [0:23:59]: Rich and deep, and I'm gonna show you what are.
Dave [0:24:03]: Yeah.
Dave [0:24:03]: Your version gives us, like, it gives you more space to let your brain imagine what the...
Dave [0:24:08]: It's like, it felt more, like, reading a story.
Dave [0:24:10]: One of the fun things about reading a book as your mind puts together what what you think it is.
Dave [0:24:14]: And that might look different.
Dave [0:24:15]: My daughter and I were talking about this the other day?
Dave [0:24:17]: Like, what do you think this character looks like?
Dave [0:24:19]: And she's like, really, I think he looks like this?
Dave [0:24:21]: And it's like, oh, that's cool.
Eddie [0:24:22]: This the exactly.
Eddie [0:24:23]: Yeah.
Dave [0:24:24]: And do you think do you think, like, that's something like, yeah, that I I kinda threw you off on the art thing.
Dave [0:24:28]: It was just side side joke, side side story.
Dave [0:24:30]: Not not actually...
Dave [0:24:31]: It wasn't a good example to compare to this.
Dave [0:24:34]: But do you think there's something about writing though?
Dave [0:24:37]: Like, because munich, is it because, like, is there some tie to, like, us being caveman men and writing and the history of language and how we communicated Is something about that or is it just literally like the form of, like, text on a page just feels different.
Dave [0:24:50]: Like,
Eddie [0:24:52]: at the end of the day, whether the Ai made it or whether human made it and somebody takes it, like, somebody interprets it whatever way they do.
Eddie [0:25:01]: It...
Eddie [0:25:02]: I don't think that really matters.
Eddie [0:25:03]: It's the effect that it has on you.
Eddie [0:25:05]: I think we're talking about, like, the process creation.
Eddie [0:25:08]: Like, as the creator as the writer as the artist, if you're going through the process of it.
Eddie [0:25:13]: Then there will be a difference between the thing that was just prompted and created by the Ai versus the thing that was you know, the person that went through the process of of creating that writing, creating that or whatever it is.
Eddie [0:25:28]: You know, somebody looks at a Monet that was, you know, that that somebody said was Ai, they're gonna see Ai.
Eddie [0:25:35]: Know, sure somebody looks in an Ai that somebody said was Mu.
Eddie [0:25:38]: They're gonna see a monet, and it really doesn't not matter.
Eddie [0:25:41]: It doesn't matter at the end of the day because the perception is the is the reality for them.
Eddie [0:25:47]: Sure.
Eddie [0:25:47]: So it is what it is, and that's the reality of the situation that's the world that we're living and whenever.
Eddie [0:25:52]: But if you want to create the best work that you can create, then going through the process is important, I think.
Eddie [0:26:00]: I get this guy's point.
Eddie [0:26:02]: I understand what he's saying and he's making a good point, and he's making it well and it is what it is, and and that's the truth.
Eddie [0:26:09]: But who knows what that could have been if he had taken the...
Eddie [0:26:14]: You know, if if a real artist had taken the time to to go through it, where where it would have ended up.
Eddie [0:26:20]: Maybe not the quality itself, but the idea in the constant were been different.
Eddie [0:26:25]: And, I mean, I'm not an artist.
Eddie [0:26:27]: I don't know anything but our.
Eddie [0:26:28]: I I can't really speak to that, but I know from an advertising standpoint, from a writing standpoint, if you have...
Eddie [0:26:35]: If you go through the process of writing, that is where the work is done.
Eddie [0:26:40]: And it is going to be fundamentally different, and many times much better than if you were to just one shot at, or go through a series of prompts because that process that tedious kind of like, working through the ideas Like, I'll give you an example.
Eddie [0:26:58]: I'm I'm working on training right now that I pre sold a couple months ago.
Eddie [0:27:02]: And the way that this training started, what I thought it was going to be versus what it is now after several months working on it, completely different.
Eddie [0:27:12]: It's like two different...
Eddie [0:27:14]: Like, it's the same thing.
Eddie [0:27:15]: It's about sales emails.
Eddie [0:27:16]: It's the same it's the same topic.
Eddie [0:27:18]: But the way that I envisioned it versus where it is now is completely different and a thousand times better.
Eddie [0:27:23]: It's like, it started in New York, and I'm in La now.
Eddie [0:27:26]: You know?
Eddie [0:27:26]: And mh thank God for me going through that process.
Eddie [0:27:29]: Because, I guess in theory, I could've just once shot at it with Chat or something.
Eddie [0:27:34]: You know?
Eddie [0:27:34]: Could've have just done that.
Eddie [0:27:36]: Everybody has that option now.
Eddie [0:27:37]: But it would have been a thousand times worse.
Eddie [0:27:40]: And so there's so much value in going through it and putting yourself through through the motions.
Eddie [0:27:46]: You know what I mean?
Eddie [0:27:48]: Mh.
Eddie [0:27:48]: With Ai, Yeah.
Eddie [0:27:51]: I think it it can write coherent.
Eddie [0:27:52]: But I I don't think that writing is, like, it's poor competency.
Eddie [0:27:56]: Like, I think it's that's also clear based on, like, how often we say to ourselves Like, we're hear others say, like, oh, this sounds like, Ai wrote it.
Eddie [0:28:03]: You know, like, There's just this kind of, like, one flavor of Ai writing that's that's become extremely.
Eddie [0:28:07]: I think, like, recognizable and obvious and and uni inspired.
Eddie [0:28:11]: So...
Dave [0:28:12]: What does it mean for for people that listen to this that that work in marketing and do a lot of writing?
Dave [0:28:17]: Like, what does all this mean for for them?
Dave [0:28:19]: What does it mean for us in our in our jobs and our work?
Eddie [0:28:22]: Well, I think it means that not much has really changed.
Eddie [0:28:25]: The tool is there now.
Eddie [0:28:27]: We have
Dave [0:28:29]: But is it like, you...
Dave [0:28:30]: If you want to win if you want to stand out if you want to get that subscriber that customer that whatever, you work for non nonprofit.
Dave [0:28:38]: You want the message to spread is that you have to because everyone...
Dave [0:28:42]: Everything else...
Dave [0:28:43]: Everyone else is gonna be doing this.
Dave [0:28:44]: It's all gonna feel like that, the opportunity, which is, like you're left.
Dave [0:28:47]: Everything's gonna feel like that computer generated copy.
Dave [0:28:49]: The opportunity to stand out is to be the human generated thing is that the opportunity?
Eddie [0:28:56]: Well, yeah.
Eddie [0:28:56]: I think the bar has been raised.
Eddie [0:28:57]: Right?
Eddie [0:28:57]: Like, there's...
Eddie [0:28:58]: Now everybody...
Eddie [0:28:59]: No matter where they are on the world no matter how much...
Eddie [0:29:01]: How well they they they speak language no matter what level of education they have or what level of experience or wisdom they possess?
Eddie [0:29:09]: Like, they're...
Eddie [0:29:09]: They are, you know, it's been it's been democrat size, like, the level of writing or the level of of the creative expression any in any one discipline.
Eddie [0:29:18]: So the bar has been has been elevated.
Eddie [0:29:21]: But now you just kinda of...
Eddie [0:29:24]: So now you just kind of roll with that and still go through your process, use these tools to your advantage, but still go through the process.
Eddie [0:29:32]: It's not like I haven't been using Ai to do my research or to to help me along the way as I'm creating this training.
Eddie [0:29:40]: But I'm still putting myself through the motions that I would've have put myself through before.
Eddie [0:29:45]: You know?
Dave [0:29:47]: Yeah.
Dave [0:29:47]: What's interesting is, like, I...
Dave [0:29:48]: So for for, like, writing writing my newsletter as an example.
Dave [0:29:52]: I write my newsletter based on the podcast, and what I do is I we'll say, like, hey, this is my podcast with Eddie.
Dave [0:29:58]: Here are the three, Like, I have notes on what I thought the interesting nuggets were and, like, for the newsletter, it's supposed to be just kinda like, quick hits, digestible stuff to get you to listen more or or get some info.
Dave [0:30:09]: So it's like, pull out these three things like, and I get the transcript and I take it from the transcript, and I have those three things and I stick with Eddie.
Dave [0:30:15]: But then I sit down after and I write the intro and I put my humor on and I move things around and, like, I I I feel like that is the writing process.
Dave [0:30:23]: Like, what the first part is just, like, the research and getting my material and I noticed that the more I'd lean into that, like the personality storytelling, like, the more that I use those...
Dave [0:30:34]: That types of copy, I get way more responses.
Dave [0:30:37]: And so there's definitely something that resonates with people or, like, even more recently, the stuff that I'm writing on Linkedin.
Dave [0:30:43]: I'm trying to, like, lean into more my kinda just wild off the cuff writing style, like, from my phone in my kitchen.
Dave [0:30:50]: I'm just noticing that that is generating more.
Dave [0:30:53]: It's getting more interest in responses.
Dave [0:30:55]: There's almost like becoming it's like the new banner blindness is where, like, subconsciously blind to all of the kinda Ai generated, you know, email webinar invites landing page copy and you're more likely to have something stand out and resonated if you've kinda gone through that process.
Dave [0:31:10]: It's in It's an interesting way to think about it because I think everyone is searching for, like, the fastest most efficient shortest cut way to do a lot of things, and you're basically rem making the case that, like, like, anything worth building in in life or worth doing.
Dave [0:31:25]: It's oftentimes like the process that leads to, you know, the actual out...
Dave [0:31:31]: Is something that's actually gonna get the outcome that you want.
Eddie [0:31:34]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:31:34]: There's no...
Eddie [0:31:35]: I don't think I don't think there's anything wrong with using Ai to shortcut some things.
Eddie [0:31:39]: But then there's definitely a problem with using Ai to shortcut other things.
Eddie [0:31:43]: Like, I think the research, like, copywriting is kind of a mis to me.
Eddie [0:31:48]: I almost I always called a copy researching because that's what took up the bulk of of my time on one project is, like, going out finding anecdotal information, finding anecdotal data from a market, understanding that market as well as I can.
Eddie [0:32:02]: That was really time consuming and and really tedious.
Eddie [0:32:05]: And Ai, just as an example makes it so much easier to c and collect a lot of data from a specific market from all over the Internet, put it together, see what the overlap is, see what the common themes are that was...
Eddie [0:32:22]: I wouldn't call it busy work, but it was definitely taking the majority of my time and and it was really hard, and it was it was cutting it was cutting the time that I had to to actually write the the promotion right the piece.
Eddie [0:32:34]: Now it's kinda flipped on its on its head.
Eddie [0:32:38]: Like, now I can use Ai to go out, find that information, find that anecdotal to data, put it together in really reliable way, and then give myself that much more time to put it together creatively.
Eddie [0:32:52]: And in a way that's inspired.
Eddie [0:32:54]: And I think that's that's the word here.
Eddie [0:32:56]: Like, the writing is good, but it's not inspired.
Eddie [0:32:59]: And maybe that's where inspired.
Dave [0:33:01]: For...
Dave [0:33:01]: Yes.
Dave [0:33:02]: It has that charge in it.
Eddie [0:33:04]: Right.
Eddie [0:33:04]: Maybe that's what I'm talking about.
Eddie [0:33:05]: Know what I mean?
Eddie [0:33:06]: It's like everybody can write now, but can you write this inspired piece?
Dave [0:33:11]: There's a local little sandwich shop in my town, and this amazing.
Dave [0:33:14]: The lady makes them I'm amazing sandwiches, but I could also go to Pane I get a Turkey bacon sandwich at pane, and it's gonna taste like one of those kinda, you know, big box store off the shelf, gas station type of sandwiches.
Dave [0:33:26]: Which one's better.
Eddie [0:33:29]: Right?
Eddie [0:33:29]: I mean, maybe...
Eddie [0:33:30]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:33:30]: Which one's better?
Eddie [0:33:31]: I don't know what this what this lady shop looks like, but if the atmosphere in that shop is different.
Eddie [0:33:36]: Yeah.
Dave [0:33:37]: Ten out of ten.
Dave [0:33:37]: She's amazing.
Dave [0:33:38]: You know.
Eddie [0:33:39]: You know what I mean?
Eddie [0:33:39]: Like, it if...
Eddie [0:33:40]: There's there's a lot of different variables.
Dave [0:33:42]: Alright.
Dave [0:33:42]: Do you have more give have more slides?
Dave [0:33:43]: Are you done?
Eddie [0:33:45]: I have more slides.
Eddie [0:33:45]: Let me get Right.
Eddie [0:33:46]: Let me go let me go through some of the things that I think make writing inspired, and I think need humanity to get there.
Eddie [0:33:55]: So inspired writing has holes in it.
Eddie [0:33:58]: Right?
Eddie [0:33:59]: And holes let the reader basically participate in the narrative.
Eddie [0:34:04]: So leaves room for the reader to...
Eddie [0:34:07]: Like you were saying earlier, use her imagination to access her own kind of experiences and wisdom and insert these things into the story, and that makes reading much more, I think realistic and immersive experience.
Eddie [0:34:21]: And so there's a few technical things that anyone can do to create holes.
Eddie [0:34:27]: Right?
Eddie [0:34:28]: So you can frame the story in dialogue, which is simple but not easy.
Eddie [0:34:33]: I think you can use anti description, which is basically not providing too much detail at all.
Eddie [0:34:40]: And and I'll show you what that looks like in saying.
Eddie [0:34:43]: And then there's there's sub, which is basically, like, allowing the context, what's going on in the scene to dictate the meaning behind the words.
Eddie [0:34:52]: So So for example, I don't have to tell you in this scene that I wrote that I'm anxious.
Eddie [0:34:59]: Right?
Eddie [0:35:00]: Like, you can tell based on what I'm saying.
Eddie [0:35:01]: The observations I'm making, the questions I'm asking, that's the power of dialogue.
Eddie [0:35:06]: It's basically, it's it's how we get to know people in real life.
Eddie [0:35:10]: You know, Like, you understand a person who they are largely based on what they do and do not say, out loud.
Eddie [0:35:16]: You know what I mean?
Eddie [0:35:17]: But, like, writing good dialogue that feels real that feels like it came out of a a real person.
Eddie [0:35:22]: Mouth it's it's really difficult.
Eddie [0:35:24]: It's really hard.
Eddie [0:35:25]: And sometimes humans can't can't do it well at all even when they're getting paid, and this stuff they're writing is going on Tv.
Eddie [0:35:31]: You know what I mean So this is a really hard thing to do, and it takes a grasp of the human condition and the context of the situation, and so this is something that Ai struggles with a lot.
Eddie [0:35:42]: Okay.
Eddie [0:35:42]: And also with anti description, I don't have to tell you.
Eddie [0:35:46]: I'm in a hospital.
Eddie [0:35:48]: Right?
Eddie [0:35:49]: You can tell because I mentioned the nurse.
Eddie [0:35:51]: Right?
Eddie [0:35:51]: I don't have to tell you about the environment.
Eddie [0:35:53]: I don't have to tell you about you know, the smells and the colors and the serenity of the hospital.
Eddie [0:35:58]: You can tell because I mentioned masks and gowns and gloves and hair.
Eddie [0:36:02]: Right?
Eddie [0:36:03]: So I'm not giving you a description as much as I'm giving you this this kinda anti description.
Eddie [0:36:08]: Small details that force you to the color in the story based on your own experiences in a hospital.
Eddie [0:36:16]: Right?
Eddie [0:36:16]: Creating an image that is, like, invariably more real and believable because it's coming from your own brain, like, your own memory of that place.
Eddie [0:36:25]: And so this process of of filling in the details for yourself.
Eddie [0:36:29]: Exactly what you're talking about with your daughter.
Eddie [0:36:32]: Like, even if they're not perfectly accurate, it's it's not only engaging, but it's also, like, helping you conjure more profound and, like vivid image.
Eddie [0:36:41]: Almost like, like, a, like, a mind movie.
Eddie [0:36:43]: And we've actually talked about this before and called, Dave about the Ko effect.
Eddie [0:36:49]: It was this researcher left cole.
Eddie [0:36:51]: Do you remember this?
Eddie [0:36:52]: Mh.
Dave [0:36:53]: Yeah.
Dave [0:36:53]: Tell the story.
Eddie [0:36:54]: Left...
Eddie [0:36:54]: So left Ko shop did an experiment.
Eddie [0:36:56]: He put an actor in front of the cam, and he asked him to deliver an expression with look.
Eddie [0:37:03]: Right?
Eddie [0:37:04]: And then Ko showed audiences a series of shots followed by the actors expression was face.
Eddie [0:37:12]: So if you're not watching this, if you're listening to this, just imagine an expression was face and then imagine Ko showing this audience a bowl soup for example, and then the face.
Eddie [0:37:23]: Right?
Eddie [0:37:23]: And then he would show them a small girl in a coffin.
Eddie [0:37:27]: Right?
Eddie [0:37:27]: And then he would show them the same face of that actor.
Eddie [0:37:30]: And then he would show them a woman on a faint couch, and then that same face.
Eddie [0:37:35]: And what's interesting.
Eddie [0:37:38]: Mh is that audiences were just amazed by, the range of this great action.
Eddie [0:37:44]: They were so moved by his range, the way that he expressed his his hunger in front of the bowl of soup and his grief at the child's death.
Eddie [0:37:51]: And you know, his desire for the woman on the couch.
Eddie [0:37:55]: Right?
Eddie [0:37:56]: And so what this proved is that in theatrical acting, the actor doesn't have to overdo it.
Eddie [0:38:02]: Right?
Eddie [0:38:03]: He doesn't have to project to the back of the house because the audience that's already assigning the actor, the emotions, they think the actor is feeling.
Eddie [0:38:12]: Right?
Eddie [0:38:12]: Even though the actor isn't expressing anything at all.
Eddie [0:38:15]: So this expression expression was look, in film in acting is a lot like what I call anti description in in writing.
Eddie [0:38:24]: By giving the reader less, you're actually giving them more to imagine to visualize and and more to experience because the experience is happening in their head.
Eddie [0:38:36]: And, you know, like I...
Eddie [0:38:39]: I I mean, I'm not a technologist.
Eddie [0:38:40]: I don't know where this stuff is going, but right now this is hard for the Ai to do.
Eddie [0:38:45]: It's hard for it to grasp, and it needs it needs a human touch there in order to really execute this effectively.
Eddie [0:38:53]: I think At least at a really high level.
Eddie [0:38:55]: And as for sub, because the audience knows this is my first child, that very last line, hello sun, actually takes on a completely different meaning.
Eddie [0:39:08]: Right?
Eddie [0:39:09]: So, ostensibly, it's a it's a greeting.
Eddie [0:39:12]: Right?
Eddie [0:39:13]: But really, it's it's so much deeper than that.
Eddie [0:39:15]: Right?
Eddie [0:39:15]: Like, it...
Eddie [0:39:15]: In this case, it's actually a transformation.
Eddie [0:39:18]: It's the beginning of my life as a parent as someone with this profound responsibility.
Eddie [0:39:23]: And so I'm no longer that guy that's, like, you know, like, afraid of the nose for you.
Eddie [0:39:28]: Right?
Eddie [0:39:29]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:39:29]: Like I'm not I'm not that guy anymore.
Eddie [0:39:30]: I'm someone else I've become a different person and and you the reader are witnessing that.
Eddie [0:39:35]: And I don't have to tell you this.
Eddie [0:39:37]: Right?
Eddie [0:39:38]: I don't I don't have to project this to the back of the room.
Eddie [0:39:40]: You can feel it.
Eddie [0:39:41]: Even if you can't put your finger on it, you can feel it And, I guess, like, that's enough.
Eddie [0:39:46]: Like, that feeling is enough to move people.
Eddie [0:39:49]: And so that's something else that, like, the Ai has a lot of trouble with.
Eddie [0:39:53]: Is kinda, like, knowing where that line is between feeling it and expressing it outright.
Eddie [0:40:00]: It's really, really hard for robots to do that.
Eddie [0:40:03]: And it's really hard for people to to do that.
Eddie [0:40:08]: You know what I mean?
Eddie [0:40:08]: So that's just one way that, like, leaning on on the machines too much can really s your writing s your expression, and, you know, we see that in the Ai.
Eddie [0:40:20]: All of this is in such stark contrast to what the Ai does, which is basically, you know, spoon feeding you, the significance of the moment, the meaning of this moment.
Eddie [0:40:31]: And and you'll notice the Ai version is perfect.
Eddie [0:40:35]: It sterilize.
Eddie [0:40:36]: It's like, this ama of ideal feelings and phrases, right, like, truly magical experience, moment of joy excitement, a wave of love and warmth so much joy and pride, unforgettable moment.
Eddie [0:40:48]: This is what the Ai is writing, and it's ram the experience down your throat instead of inviting you to take part.
Eddie [0:40:56]: Right?
Eddie [0:40:56]: Which is what good redding does?
Dave [0:40:58]: Yes.
Dave [0:40:58]: Spoon feeding is a perfect way to frame that.
Eddie [0:41:01]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:41:01]: So back to your question, Dave, like, why why are people pushing back on a Ai.
Eddie [0:41:04]: My perspective is I I I think I think the real turn off, especially folks in our industry, like marketers copywriter, commercial storyteller, people who need to get under the skin and into the psyche of a market to exact some kind of change or or compelling action.
Eddie [0:41:22]: These folks understand that Like, to quote Jeff could be, like, a a great ad is a mirror that you put in front of your audience.
Eddie [0:41:29]: Right?
Eddie [0:41:30]: In other words, like, the the best advertising is something people immediately see themselves in.
Eddie [0:41:35]: Is something immediately relevant.
Eddie [0:41:37]: So their reality, what they've lived through what they know to be true.
Eddie [0:41:40]: And the truth about meeting your first born child is that it's it's not always this rosy id thing.
Eddie [0:41:47]: You know what I mean Like, the way the Ai made it sound.
Eddie [0:41:50]: Right?
Eddie [0:41:50]: Like, even if if everything went perfectly, there's still fear and anxiety and doubt, that can overs overflow the the beauty of it all, which sets in later.
Eddie [0:41:59]: But in the immediate, it's it's not always there.
Eddie [0:42:01]: And that's especially true if things didn't go perfectly real.
Eddie [0:42:04]: Right?
Eddie [0:42:04]: Like, then then the fear and the anxiety and the doubt is just through the roof, which is which is what my version was.
Eddie [0:42:11]: And and, you know, of course, the the Ai couldn't understand this feelings.
Eddie [0:42:14]: Why didn't understand it?
Eddie [0:42:18]: Like, because the Ai the Ai didn't just, you know, watch the most important person in life go through this this incredibly hard and complicated labor.
Eddie [0:42:28]: Right?
Eddie [0:42:28]: Because...
Eddie [0:42:29]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:42:29]: You know, they
Dave [0:42:31]: can go through the process.
Dave [0:42:31]: It didn't have to make the baby, like the, you know, grow the baby like, yeah.
Eddie [0:42:36]: Not at all.
Eddie [0:42:36]: And it didn't have to it didn't have to witness this baby struggling to breathe inside inside my wife.
Eddie [0:42:41]: Right?
Eddie [0:42:42]: It didn't have to, you know, it wasn't there during emergency surgery at four o'clock in the morning.
Eddie [0:42:47]: People are People are the, like, the most incredible animals because every day, we go through life with this knowledge that everything we care about and everything we love could be just completely taken away from us.
Eddie [0:43:02]: And yet, we we go on anyway.
Eddie [0:43:04]: Right?
Eddie [0:43:05]: Every day we persist.
Eddie [0:43:06]: And and sometimes we have moments that remind us of this reality.
Eddie [0:43:10]: And that does contribute to us.
Eddie [0:43:12]: Right?
Eddie [0:43:12]: That...
Eddie [0:43:12]: And that's why I wrote what I wrote.
Eddie [0:43:14]: I wrote my truth and my reality and because we all share the human experience, so many people understood that truth.
Eddie [0:43:20]: They related to my version to to my experience, my way of expressing it, you know, which gave them them room and space, you know, alongside me.
Eddie [0:43:29]: And I I think they were equally under overwhelmed by the version put forth by the Ai.
Eddie [0:43:33]: Because it's just it's just this computer.
Eddie [0:43:36]: And it's just for the sterilized version perfection.
Eddie [0:43:39]: Just didn't exist.
Eddie [0:43:40]: Wasn't true.
Dave [0:43:42]: Alright, Eddie.
Dave [0:43:43]: Good job.
Dave [0:43:44]: We, this is a a well needed message a break from a break from reality with Eddie.
Dave [0:43:48]: Thank you I'm, sir.
Dave [0:43:49]: No.
Dave [0:43:53]: This is good.
Dave [0:43:53]: Thank
Eddie [0:43:54]: you.
Eddie [0:43:54]: Great.
Dave [0:43:55]: From...
Dave [0:43:55]: I mean, yeah.
Dave [0:43:56]: You're gonna be you're gonna be the first one that they take out the robots, but I appreciate your your speech there.
Eddie [0:44:03]: Well, what's your perspective data?
Eddie [0:44:04]: Tell me what you're...
Eddie [0:44:06]: Tell me what you're thinking.
Eddie [0:44:08]: What are your first thoughts when somebody comes out like that.
Dave [0:44:13]: My first thoughts went win with Ai?
Eddie [0:44:16]: I just told you something.
Eddie [0:44:17]: Yeah.
Eddie [0:44:18]: How how did it, you know, how did it make you feel?
Dave [0:44:22]: I think you're right.
Dave [0:44:22]: I think it...
Dave [0:44:23]: I think it does...
Dave [0:44:24]: Look, and I think there's plenty of people that are gonna argue, like, the real Ai people are gonna say, this, you know, the models can do this And here's why and Da, and I think But I don't think you're saying the same thing.
Dave [0:44:36]: I think what you're saying is like, the way I interpret is, like, there's always gonna be, an opportunity to have, like, the handcrafted handmade.
Dave [0:44:46]: Thing made by a human, and I feel like that with food with buildings with rest whatever it is.
Dave [0:44:52]: And I think the same is true in in marketing and and and writing, and there's some hard to define reason, but you can just feel it, and I think you're making that you're making that case.
Dave [0:45:03]: And I I totally buy into that because I'm a human.
Dave [0:45:06]: I still wanna have a job.
Dave [0:45:07]: I'd love to believe that, like, the made by human thing real really matters not just because of the, like, philosophical thing, like, I'm I'm team human, and I want it to be made by my team, But just, like, I feel like there there is something there that a robot type of thing can hit on in in the same way.
Dave [0:45:24]: So
Eddie [0:45:25]: there's no doubt that, Like, it's you know, there aren't gonna be as many copywriter or there aren't gonna, you know, there aren't gonna be as many marketers.
Eddie [0:45:32]: There's gonna be just I don't know what I don't know what what's gonna happen.
Eddie [0:45:37]: But I do know that, like, whether...
Eddie [0:45:38]: I'm actually sitting down and writing this stuff myself and using my fingertips to type it or in, however, many years talking to talking to a machine and telling you what's to right.
Eddie [0:45:48]: Like, there's, like, copywriting and marketing is a a human profession because you you need to tap into you need to tap to the human condition to to understand it.
Eddie [0:46:00]: And to understand that market to to be able to...
Dave [0:46:04]: I'm writing that down.
Dave [0:46:04]: Well why that's a really good...
Dave [0:46:05]: That's a good headline.
Dave [0:46:06]: Why copywriting is a human profession?
Dave [0:46:08]: Love that.
Dave [0:46:10]: That's it.
Dave [0:46:11]: Let's make that case.
Eddie [0:46:13]: It absolutely is.
Eddie [0:46:14]: It's copywriting is about empathy and understanding a market understanding what people want, whether it's rational or not.
Eddie [0:46:24]: Whatever it is, that market needs, whatever it is that market wants, whether you agree with it.
Eddie [0:46:29]: It's like the ultimate form of empathy.
Eddie [0:46:31]: It's the ultimate exercise and empathy.
Eddie [0:46:33]: Because for as long as you're working on that promotion, you're not yourself anymore.
Eddie [0:46:37]: You're...
Eddie [0:46:38]: You are actually trying to assume the consciousness of of somebody else.
Eddie [0:46:42]: And their perspective in their worldview who they are and what they want.
Eddie [0:46:47]: And sometimes that doesn't follow...
Eddie [0:46:50]: That...
Eddie [0:46:51]: What they want doesn't follow all the rules, you know?
Eddie [0:46:53]: It's not something that you could just go and You can't just get it.
Eddie [0:46:56]: You have to talk to them or you you have to put it together somehow, and you have to find an angle that it's gonna appeal to them based on whatever they're thinking.
Eddie [0:47:05]: So...
Dave [0:47:06]: Sure.
Dave [0:47:06]: Alright.
Dave [0:47:07]: We gotta are we gotta wrap I gotta jump.
Dave [0:47:09]: You gotta go.
Dave [0:47:09]: Eddie Eddie Shleyner.
Dave [0:47:11]: Thanks for coming on, brother.
Dave [0:47:12]: We're gonna link all yourself verygoodcopy.com.
Dave [0:47:15]: I love this topic something for us to think about, and I I I I very much needed this session today.
Dave [0:47:20]: So thank you, sir.
Eddie [0:47:22]: I appreciate your day.
Eddie [0:47:22]: Thank you very much.
Eddie [0:47:23]: Alright.
Dave [0:47:28]: Hey.
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