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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: Happy families are all alike. Every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. These are the opening words of Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy, but it is the same true of teams. Well, that's probably a bold claim, but one thing we can say is that there are classic unhelpful patterns that teams can fall into. To observe them, categorize them, and know how to solve them takes decades of experience, and that's exactly what our guest on this episode of We Not Me has.
[00:00:27] Dan: Noj Hinkins is a an in-demand coach, facilitator, and team expert. He's a director at Iceberg Coaching and has worked with leaders across the world to build capability and drive performance. In this conversation, he shares three classic, but often almost invisible patterns that teams can slip into, and then how to get outta them.
[00:00:51] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast, where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond
[00:00:59] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.
[00:01:00] Dan: I had a, a little drink with, um, our old friend Greg Raddick, who was on this show talking about salience, a couple of weeks ago. He's doing really well. He's got a new course. He's enjoying teaching. But, it reminded me on, he reminded me of the quote that he used on the show, and I think you've used as well around the news and, you know, what is, what's it just, his quote was, make sure the news is. Your news, and I think you said the news is only unused and it really made me think about that and went, and in November, uh, last year, no, sorry, 2024, I, um, um, I, I basically stopped listening to the news as an experiment and I did it. I've done it for over a year now. And, uh, I literally used to watch it all the time be reading the
[00:01:42] Pia: On tv.
[00:01:44] Dan: And no, I've never, I haven't watched it on TV for, for 10 years or more, I think. But this is about, you know, on your phone. Going to the BBC website, going to the Guardian, whatever, you know, whatever my news sources are. And, and I've just, I just really having been, I think, to really top decile informed. I've, I've, I've really dropped out of that completely. It's been fantastic. I haven't missed anything,
[00:02:05] Pia: What do you think it's done to your state of mind?
[00:02:07] Dan: Totally improved it. Because what I realized, I was feasting on this area of. You know that, you know, in the Covey model of WhatsApp, it was inside my area of concern. So I do actually care about, you know, what people are up to in the world, but it's outside my every area of influence, and that's just, that's just mental health rot and stress, isn't it? And I'm constantly thinking about things.
[00:02:30] Dan: So yeah, that's been really helpful. I feel I've sort, I think I've gotta make some sort of adjustment so I stay sort of informed, but I, I, you know, you realize that the news cycles peak you as well. You know, there's a stabbing or something and everyone's agitated and it goes away again.
[00:02:46] Dan: Everyone forgets. Everyone forgets and you sort of think, well, I'm avoiding all of those ups and downs. What I'm, what I'm doing instead is listening to another podcast, which is, the rest is history. And I'm loving my history, loving it, and I'm becoming Pia, I think I'm becoming interest more interesting slash boring. I don't know. Am I just a better
[00:03:05] Pia: Yeah, it will depend on your audience. If you're starting to talk about sort of, you know, the rising of the Serbs in hernia and Bo Bosnia in 1878.
[00:03:14] Dan: Pia, I have, I, I've, uh, things like that. I've done so many times, but I think you're right. My intent needs to be right. My intent actually is to look incredibly clever, so that's not very good, is it? Um, but I'll, um, uh, I probably need to sort myself out there. Yeah. But I will keep an eye on the audience just to see whether this is a sort of. Bored expression or, or just sort of, gosh, how interesting.
[00:03:36] Pia: Do you read The Economist still? 'cause you were a, you were an economist reader.
[00:03:40] Dan: I don't at the moment. I think that would be quite a good thing to do. No, I don't, I must admit I think, uh, that could be a good thing to do, but, uh, at least you could sort of agree or just they have a viewpoint, don't they? But, um, yeah. Anyway, but it's, it's really been totally supplanted by, um, by my interest in the Serbs in the, in, uh, you know, 19th century.
[00:04:01] Pia: Well, I, I, I've done a similar thing and actually what I found is on a day to day, there are a couple of situations where there's some real news. and at the time of recording this, of course, we'd just had that horrific Bondi terrorist. Um, situation. but you also see the pattern of the media that it reports facts, and then we go into very deep stories, which does actually amplify, um, the pain. I mean, I, I understand it, but they're looking to keep their readers for as long as possible. That that's, that's pretty obvious.
[00:04:36] Dan: Well, I think your, if I can, you know, your question about intent and audience is spot on again there, you know, what is their intent? And it's not, not that, well, it's certainly not about, um, balanced information. So anyway, but it's, that's my, that's my new me Pia.
[00:04:53] Dan: So if I'm become either more interesting or more boring than ever, um, just let me know. But, um, that is. Totally relevant to today's show, to be honest, but, so I'm, I'm struggling with a segue, but We have a fantastic episode today with a friend of the show, um, Noj Hinkins, who Yeah. Is an old friend. Um, of both of us. And, he does a lot of work with teams and, he's noticed these patterns that emerge and they're sort of hidden and, uh, they can really hold a team back. And this is really great stuff from the absolute frontline of teamwork and team coaching. So, yeah, Noj has a lot to share. Great episode. Let's go and hear from him now.
[00:05:37] Pia: And this is so exciting 'cause we are welcoming back a long lost mate from many years ago being here in Australia and, and then actually went back to Blighty all on to, um, forge a very successful career. Welcome to no Noj Hinkins.
[00:05:54] Noj: Thank you very much. Good morning. Great to see you.
[00:05:57] Pia: Good afternoon and good evening. so yeah, so before we start to delve into your world of insights, um, and we share a lot of common ground in the world that we do, uh, particularly around teams, Mr. Hammond, Dan is gonna ask you, a sneaky question actually and put you on the spot and see what the, and see what your answer is.
[00:06:17] Pia: Just be honest. Noj
[00:06:19] Noj: I am always honest. You know
[00:06:20] Dan: Yeah. And you are, you are indeed. This is a nice one actually, as an opportunity for Immodesty. It's an orange card and it is, I'm amazingly good at,
[00:06:29] Pia: nuances.
[00:06:30] Noj: Yeah, we. Well, I'm unexpectedly good at poetry. Dan, oh,
[00:06:38] Pia: Oh.
[00:06:38] Noj: something you may not know
[00:06:40] Dan: Keep talking. I, well, I actually, I have to say I had a glimpse of this this week because you sent me, uh, one of, one of your pieces of work.
[00:06:50] Noj: Oh, the very serious. Santa Santa's solution where a rocket pops out of a reindeer's bottom. That one?
[00:06:58] Dan: Yeah. I suspect you. Sounds like there's a, a more serious, uh, end to your poetry though. Tell us more.
[00:07:05] Noj: Well there is, so I was on a coaching retreat and if when you're on a coaching retreat with a whole heap of other coaches, there is nowhere to hide. And one of the things I realized during that was I, I found it hard to access, uh, sort of some, what I would call hopeless emotions, like, uh, uh, sort of just sadness and those sort of minor scales.
[00:07:28] Noj: So I tended to avoid them. In fact, it'll be linked to something we talk about today. So I tend to say, oh yeah, that's, that's useless, that's pointless. Put it to one side. But as a result of this coaching, it's like I really need to kind of process these and understand them better, what is going on here?
[00:07:41] Noj: And, uh, I woke up at about three in the morning. And this guy that runs it had shared a photo, a picture. He takes photos of the Northern Lights. It's actually up here. It's really good. And uh, there was a, just a sad poem coming through. So I just, I wrote that in the middle of the night. And, um, that was how I'm able to process those kind of emotions, like children leaving home or the sadness of aging or things like that. So it's not particularly inspiring, but um, I find if I write some poetry on it, which is very emotional for me, um, and then, you know, by the time I've read it a few times or people have listened to it, it loses its sting. So I guess I'm processing those emotions that I probably haven't in my life much. So that's the serious angle. And then, um, obviously reindeers pop it with, uh, rockets
[00:08:28] Dan: with rockets where the bottoms Yes. Is the other, the other end of things. I'm sure you are actually processing something there as well, but, uh, in some way. But that's, uh, that's really interesting and I hadn't thought about that. Um, ab about. About poetry or the creative process as, I suppose it's a bit daf, not thinking about it, but as a cathartic thing. As a
[00:08:53] Pia: Yeah. Well, I, I was gonna ask, ask you a question, Dan, does that happen for you musically? Is there a channel that you can communicate?
[00:09:00] Dan: I'm sure it does, it is an outlet for emotion and those things, but I think where I would like to get to is to actually create more write, write songs that, that could allow me to plumb those depths. And uh, I have to say, I find it really hard, even with a weekend, decent weekend off. I find it hard to get into that space after such an intense bit of work. And my brain is sort of. Very much
[00:09:24] Pia: All in the wrong part of
[00:09:25] Dan: side. Exactly. Exactly. And
[00:09:27] Pia: ha, you're, you're like the Titanic. You're leaning over to the
[00:09:30] Dan: Tilting over like this as if I'm, I'm a bit of a slant Exactly. With, with all the passengers falling off as well. Um, but yeah, I think it's wonderful. So, but no, that's, that's very insightful and um, yeah, it'd be great to hear, I'd love to hear if any listeners has, is doing the same thing. Has that sort of out, that sort of catharsis, but interesting also that you write it, you read it, you read it to others and, and it's the, it's somehow working through, you know, not just the writing, but actually it sounds like the sort of rereading
[00:10:01] Noj: It does. Yeah. So at first, I can't read them at the start. Someone else has to read them 'cause I'm just in bits. And then the more more you get to it, the more you can then get through it and read it. You know, maybe I'll put them together one day and call them sad shit to read at funerals. That'll be the
[00:10:14] Pia: Yeah, great. Everyone will be laughing their heads
[00:10:16] Dan: It's a book that's, needed, isn't it? It's a book that's needed. Um, but thank you for that. That was a really good start. But on the, on the subject of funerals, no, I always do a segue, so, um, don't go all the way to your funeral, but, uh, tell us, give us a bit of a bio in a box. Tell us about you. It's, it's a while since you've been on the show.
[00:10:32] Noj: Yeah. So, uh, I started off, uh, my career in PepsiCo. I had a sales role selling boxes of walker's, crisps out the back of a car. Um, worked my way through a series of management roles, which I really enjoyed. PepsiCo is a really feedback coaching culture. Um, and I thought at that point, maybe this is something I wanted to do, came out to Oz and uh, that's where we met Pier and uh, did some, did a national coaching, a, a national training manager's role out there for a new acquisition, which I really enjoyed. And that was a chance to bring all the PepsiCo's leadership training together. Uh, do some coaching for some state managers that were, that were ill and met Rob Beck Calf, got introduced to LIW, the three Cs, three ws, things like that.
[00:11:14] Noj: Um, came back to the uk, took on a dysfunctional team of a hundred people that had missed their targets. I think four years running. Um, thought, well, I know the theory. Let's see what works. Put it into action. And we managed to turn the business round and hit our targets for the first time in five years.
[00:11:29] Noj: And that's when I decided, you know what? I think this is what I wanna be doing. I wanna be helping managers do a better job and if they do a better job. They have a better time, the team below them have a better time, and your impact is multiplied, uh, through the, through the ranks. So for the last, what, 15, 20 years probably, I've been working with senior teams, usually directors and above doing one-on-one coaching or team building, um, or leadership development work, like training. And, uh, I love it. I feel very fortunate that I found what I'm here to do and yeah, I, I feel like I could do it forever. So it's really good.
[00:12:02] Pia: That's a lovely way to describe your career and that you still love it as much now as you did when you, when you started.
[00:12:08] Noj: Yeah, I still really enjoy it. You know, when I see coaching sessions in the, in the diary, I'm looking forward to them and working with different clients and like me and Dan went into London a few few weeks ago and I just really enjoyed meeting different people, different organizations, just genuine interest in it.
[00:12:22] Noj: So, uh, I feel very fortunate that way when a lot of people our age are just desperate to get out and can't, don't dunno how many more years they can do it, So
[00:12:30] Pia: Um, so you, you nod are in the same field as us and it's a very interesting time to be doing the job that we do. What are you seeing? What's, what's going on there? What are the patterns that you're seeing, um, in your work and do they differ from where you started 10, 15 years ago?
[00:12:50] Noj: interesting question. Do they differ? I think, I think, you know, some things do, AI coming in technology is make, is, is making a difference. And then I think there are just some key old school things that are about being a human or being a series of humans in a room with a supposed common goal. Uh, where these things just emerge and, and they were the th they were the things I was gonna talk about today.
[00:13:11] Noj: So, uh, you've probably come across Len's five Dysfunctions of a team, which I think is a great book, and they're kind of really good buckets to look at. And my work with teams over the last few years, there have been sometimes where you're trying to work out like, what is going on with this team? What is the thing that's getting in the way?
[00:13:27] Noj: and sometimes it can be something that's quite specific. I think quite, uh. Um, a specific element that is obviously linked to those larger buckets of dysfunctions, but I just thought, you know what, there, there's, you know, several here, but we might talk about three today, where if you don't know what's going on or you haven't sort of identified that this is, this is the issue, this is the specific dysfunction, um, it's, I think it's quite hard to spot and quite hard to grab hold of.
[00:13:52] Noj: So I just thought it might be useful. Um, and maybe your listeners, there might be one or two out there that think, do you know what, we've got a bit of this going on. It might help them with how to, how to solve that. So the, the three of all are toxic, positivity, covert process, and scapegoating. So these are, these are three slightly different things. You're chuckling, Dan,
[00:14:11] Dan: Yeah, I like, I like, things with the, with I like things with a good work, good name attached to them. So that gave me a course with.
[00:14:19] Noj: Yeah. So, um, yeah, we were talking before about the poetry. So I've got, I've got personal sort of experience of when positivity is overdone and it, it doesn't become helpful. Uh, but of course we're all told, aren't we? Oh, we should be positive. We should be positive. And I think sometimes if we're overly positive or positive in the wrong way, it can become toxic.
[00:14:38] Noj: Um. And for me, when it flips into toxic or positive with a little p, it's kind of pretending everything's okay when it isn't. and it can seem good on the surface and seem like it's a good, positive person to have in the team. Uh, but it can, it can cause some real big problems.
[00:14:53] Pia: So, so. Give examples of this. What, what, what do you mean by toxic positivity? So like, what does it look like?
[00:14:59] Noj: I think if we, if the toxic positivity can be when, if, if something's 10 outta 10, it's positive, it's eight outta 10, it's pretty positive. If it's six outta 10, it's not that good. But we can still say, nevermind, it's not that bad. But if you keep going down the scale where it's okay, this is okay, everything's okay, this is fine.
[00:15:16] Noj: Or we have a terrible meeting and say, this is brilliant. They're are great learnings here, it it, it can kind of lose track on reality. And, you know, positive with a capital P for me is, let's be honest about where we are, and then let's pretty quickly get onto what we're gonna do about it, which is useful positivity.
[00:15:31] Noj: But I don't, if we're not honest about where we are, we can just end up it, it can lead to a, um, a disconnect between people. 'cause you've got people in the room looking at a situation or feeling a certain way, and then you've got often a manager or a senior person, uh, who is so positive about the situation there's a disconnect and they just really don't understand it. So it can lead to a lack of clarity. Maybe I don't get this.
[00:15:52] Dan: Now you've mentioned it. I have seen it on a few occasions in teams and. people who try to break outta that and, you know, point to the thing that's not so good. I've even heard leaders using terms like they're, they don't buy in. You know, it's almost like, uh, they're actually sort of a slight sense of. They're either negative or in the, are they, they, but also worse. There is some sort of a traitor to a positivity. They're, they're, they're not on, they're not on board, and actually to the extent where people are, they start sort of talking about, ah, they, they don't fit and they need to go just because they've pointed out something that needs fixing. It's quite, it can get, that's the toxicity, isn't it?
[00:16:33] Noj: It is. Yeah. And it's like, it's like the emperor's new clothes, isn't it? It, it's, we're all saying, yeah, this is fine, this is great. And then it's someone saying, no, it's not great. And it's like, oh yeah, you're right. But if the, if the environment or the, or the climate is too much in that other place, then, then they become the problem. Um, so it becomes angled at a person rather than the system or the climate.
[00:16:51] Pia: I, I think the impact is, it doesn't become psychologically safe to speak up because you're trying to look for, you're trying to look for this, this very positive norm. And the way that you fit in is by, you know. Being a jolly com comrade with positive, even if it isn't,
[00:17:07] Noj: Yeah. And I think that's the thing about these, these three topics, they somehow hide under something else, you know? So it's that, you're exactly right. It's, it's kind of a way of damaging psychological safety, which we would all say is bad, but we, it's done through the medium of, um, positivity and everything's fine and it's all okay.
[00:17:25] Noj: Um, you know, and there's, there's different. Different impacts of this, and I think, I think people do it because, well, certainly what we were talking about before about the poetry. My mum is a very positive person, um, and she's older now. She's got various health challenges and it's serving her really well.
[00:17:40] Noj: She's positive, she's dealing with it. She's getting up in the morning, she's going through all the rigmarole and it's awesome to see. But in my career, at times I've been overly positive and when things haven't been good, i've, it's okay. Nevermind. It's fine. It's fine and it wasn't fine. Um, and if you sit in that place too long and you are too positive like that, you can get yourself in quite a mess.
[00:18:00] Noj: At one point, Liz is like, you've gotta go to the doctors. This is not good. I'm like, why would I go to the doctors? And the doctor's like, you, you, you are depressed. You've got your stress, your stress, and you've got depressed. I'm like, how have I got depressed? I'm the most positive person I know and that was why, do you know what I mean? That was
[00:18:15] Pia: I know a few other people. I, I know me well.
[00:18:17] Dan: exactly.
[00:18:19] Noj: So it was, um, so on a, on a personal level. You can follow things and carry on with things that aren't that good because you're dressing up to be better than they are. And it saves you having to look at a difficult situation or some, or a conversation you don't want to have either with yourself or with other people.
[00:18:35] Noj: So I think that's unconsciously why some people do it. And then of course, consciously we're told to be positive in meetings. So this can sometimes be a double whammy where we lose a bit of touch with reality and how things really are, and that that's really dangerous 'cause you can sell off a cliff then.
[00:18:50] Dan: And you're constantly sending a performer out to work for, aren't you? and the, this is slightly off topic, but I've felt the same as a parent actually, where you have that sort of positivity. But then as the, as our girls have grown to be adults, you think, I realized in the last couple of years actually, they need to know that everything isn't rosy.
[00:19:10] Dan: You know, that we do go through rough times. These are challenges. So almost going from the lead, parenting a child to sort of parenting an adult where they need to, not holding themselves up to some false standard that I've. Accidentally. He said, oh, well, dad's always positive. No, he's not. Do you
[00:19:27] Dan: know what I mean?
[00:19:27] Dan: I think that it's, it's a similar, similar situation, I think.
[00:19:30] Noj: You know, in talking about the kids things you think about, certainly a younger age with our kids, you go into the playground to pick the kids up and all the parents are there and it's all you hear is toxic Positivity from parents about how good their kids are doing or what they're up to or what we're doing or, and, and, and.
[00:19:45] Noj: I can tell you ev most 80% of the parents there are thinking, oh my God, my life is not like that. I'm struggling. This is hard. I'm finding young kids hard. I'm exhausted. I'm not having much fun anymore. And then they go into the playground plaster on a positive face and say, yeah, it's great. And little Johnny's done this and, and it, that's quite a toxic, that's a good version of it.
[00:20:05] Noj: Um. There was a book which Liz read once called, uh, may Contain Nuts, and it was all about that kind of playground politics thing. Um, and they, and occasionally afterwards you have a conversation with something and find they were struggling tremendously, but they didn't feel they could share it in that system. Um, and it's, it's not good.
[00:20:24] Dan: could we just talk about how you uncover and solve this one
[00:20:28] Noj: so I think the, you know, some of the things that can happen here, one of the things we've seen happen is a very senior person who's very positive getting dragged into all sorts of meetings below them, because they were always positive. They were a very powerful person in the system, and everyone thought, well, they get it so.
[00:20:43] Noj: I'm not sure we do. So, so they get dragged down the leadership pipeline. So that's, that's another issue for, for individuals. but I think in terms of how you, how you solve it, having a real clear benchmark of what good looks like, so you, you know, your W one, like what, what is, what is a real high performing team?
[00:21:00] Noj: What is, what are our results that we're really aiming for? And then really confront those brutal and sometimes unpalatable facts about where we are, which is the W2. And I think if you can have a clear view of a W one and clear metrics on a W2. It's fine to get positive with what we can do about it in the W three.
[00:21:18] Noj: What could we do about this? How could we make changes? What ideas have people got? How do we positively move forward from it? That's all fine, but it's not lost. In the kind of soup of everything's fine. And I think where you've got qualitative measures. I'm a big fan of scaling. I kind of mentioned it before about the, you know, scaling one to 10, but if it's qualitative, they should all give a mark out a 10.
[00:21:39] Noj: It doesn't massively matter if it's accurate or not, but you are gonna get a number. And unless it is 10 or zero, something is gonna be going right and something's gonna be going wrong. And then you get to have a more balanced view on it. So I think that's the real clear thing. And if you are facilitating it with a manager, encouraging people to be honest, And if you see the numbers coming up and positive, and I've done this with teams, sometimes I'm seeing lots of eights, and eights is the kind of non number seven or eight. It's like, you know, I've heard you talk about X, Y, Z. Just encouraging people it's okay to give a low score, uh, on certain elements. And of course you get a bit more of that with Squadify as well, don't you? Because you get some metrics on these things where people say, look, look at the scores on the screen. It isn't that good. So let's be honest about that and let's look at what we're gonna do.
[00:22:23] Dan: Yeah, and, and I have to say, it's weird, isn't it? How the data facilitates that conversation. It's strange how, you know, if you have a conversation and this is why you use scales, I think is okay, we've got a number now, let's talk about it. It's different from, right. Let's talk about it. It's really uncanny that that step in the middle.
[00:22:41] Noj: And I think it's a much more positive with a Capital P conversation 'cause we're having a conversation about something that isn't working so well that we can see as an issue and trying to fix it rather than if we are too positive with a little p we're sort of saying, there isn't a problem here. We've only been a team for three months. It doesn't matter, it's fine. We're doing really well. And you just, it hides, it just puts it, you know, under the, under the surface.
[00:23:00] Pia: Quite often what we do with teams is, um, is to a definition of five. because five is the top mark in Squadify, then you actually get people to say, okay, you know, a clear goal, what does that look like? What does it, what's the experience of it? And then you actually discover that everyone's got variations of what that five is.
[00:23:20] Pia: So that's all subjective. And some, you know, you can end up with what should be a score of five, but you're in a mi of mediocrity. You've sort of just brought the whole scaling right down in order to be positive. You know, because the thought of failing is really fear fearful for some people
[00:23:39] Noj: It is. And I think, I think this idea that is the whole thing's a journey. So it doesn't matter where we are on the journey, but let's just be clear about where we are and then we can decide what to do. But if we're not clear about where we are and we all think everything's fine, we're not really gonna focus in different areas. We're not gonna do much differently.
[00:23:53] Noj: so. When I was working, when I was a manager of teams, whatever the results were, it's like the results are the results we just accept and let's put them on a screen. Let's not be scared of them. They are what they are, whether we're above or below plan. that's fine.
[00:24:05] Noj: So that's okay. but now let's have a conversation about what we're gonna do about that and, uh, and how we're gonna change. Let's run some experiments and let's check in next time with the numbers. Has it made a difference or not? so yeah, it helps with that, with that journey.
[00:24:16] Dan: That's a great start. Wow. Juicy, juicy topic. What's the second? Second of these
[00:24:23] Noj: So the second one is covert process. So. Covert process clearly fits in climate. So it's a process and system thing. And what you often find with teams is, you know, they talk about what's the process for this or the system, or how are we gonna work together? And you get that and you talk about it and it's open.
[00:24:41] Noj: So it is on the table. But with some teams, then what you find is there is a covert process that's under the table, which is not written up on a flip chart, which is not committed to by the team, but it is how the team works, and that can be really destabilizing for a team because they don't understand.
[00:24:58] Noj: Why things are changing. I mean, to give you an example, we have a meeting, we agree something in the room, and then we go away again and we do something different. And we, we reconvene and you know, the half the team aren't aware that we've done something different. The other team are like, oh yeah, we agreed this, didn't we? And people are like, I don't think we did.
[00:25:17] Noj: And if it happens too much, the team just feel like they're sort of spikes spinning in a circle and, and they can't work out. Why? 'cause you can't grab this thing. Because it isn't explicit, it's under the table.
[00:25:27] Noj: It's things like corridor conversations. You know, we agree X and then there's a corridor conversation happens. We'd go and do Y because of that corridor conversation. And if you said on our ways of working, we'll agree something in the room, but then if two of us have a good conversation, the corridor outside, you can just change your mind and do something else. Nobody would sign up to that as a way of working. But if it's under the table, your team can have that as a way of working. I'm sure there will be people listening to this saying That's what happens in our team.
[00:25:54] Dan: it there, there's a sort of built in problem here, isn't there? How do you surface them? Because they're covert.
[00:26:01] Noj: Exactly, and this, this is why, this is one of the reasons I wanted to talk about it, was because it's so sneaky. It takes, it takes a while to work it out and then, well, it did for me anyway. Maybe I'm a bit slow, but when I did work it out, it's like, this is really useful. And even just the term overt and covert process or on the table versus under the table is useful.
[00:26:19] Noj: And as soon as we brought that up with this, uh, you know, with teams, they spot it, they see it, and it's quite straightforward to grab. And this is a thing, something that's unconscious or. it, you know, ethereal, we can't grab hold of. It's very hard to fix. But as soon as you name it, uh, you, you have some power to fix it.
[00:26:35] Noj: And this is weird 'cause you're naming something that is covert. So it's, it's hidden.
[00:26:40] Pia: And then do you find that the team then are better at calling that out when it happens or giving feedback or, or do they see it but still walk past it,
[00:26:50] Noj: Yeah, I guess it would depend on the team and the people, but, um, I don't, I don't think it's a quick fix. The challenge you've got is you need to create a, on the table process for dealing with this. So for example, you could say, if we agree something in the room and then me and a colleague have a conversation in a corridor somewhere else, and it's a good conversation, but it looks like we're going to do something different in the room. If I feel that's happening, I have to say this feels like we're changing direction on what we agreed in the room. The way of working on this is I immediately inform everybody else.
[00:27:23] Noj: And I think then if that's a genuine, oh, we've got a better idea, you immediately form everyone else that maybe there's a conversation or a quick chat about it, then it's a, it's an overt process on the table and it might be a good change of direction, I think if the person then says, no, no, don't do that yet.
[00:27:40] Noj: Something else is going on. So it could be political, it could be, um, some skullduggery. But again, you're calling it out, so it's Okay. Cool. So I'm not gonna do this until we've spoken to the team. So if you are like, now this is just a one-on-one conversation. We're spitballing here, I'm still gonna do what we, we agreed in the room until we're told otherwise.
[00:27:58] Noj: So it, it gives you a bit more power to hold that at bay, but your overt process on the table has to be more powerful. Than the covert one. 'cause if it isn't or you've got personalities in there that are powerful and will drive it then, then it's very hard to grab hold of.
[00:28:16] Dan: this raises a, a question for me that I've had in my mind because the, I, I've read something recently and I, I really get this, which is have conversations as much as possible in plenary, sort of, uh, as a team. So, you know, we might be chatting about something, let the team sort of, as much as possible, let the team see that conversation, don't have it under the table or in the corridor.
[00:28:38] Noj: sorry, go on. Or, or bring it back to the
[00:28:40] Dan: I, well, I think this is the answer to it actually, but I think there is an, an idea, you know, in Slack and some of these channels sort of, you know, you, you can, you can go into other people's conversations, but I find that overwhelming actually, when people are chatting, uh, one-to-one in a team context, it can be overwhelming, you think, I don't need all of that.
[00:28:59] Dan: So I, and I think it's, it, it's, the alternative is right, we're gonna have one-to-one chats. The key, what you've identified is this thing of actually one-to-one chats. Are really useful. They're powerful, they're needed. You've just got to make sure that you give it visibility. I don't think the answer is to have one on one chat in public.
[00:29:19] Dan: I think the answer is, what you've said is yes, have them. Absolutely, but they're in service of the team, so they should always be communicated back to the team.
[00:29:26] Noj: Absolutely. I mean, imagine we'd degreed something as a three and then a week or two later, you and I met up in London and went and did something and had a chat, and both us had time to reflect on what we'd degreed. We'd had a few ideas or niggles we shared and we talked about it and we thought we'd come up with a better idea.
[00:29:41] Noj: There's nothing wrong with that, I don't think, but if we then just go and do that without involving peer. That's a covert process. If we go back to peer and say, Hey, look, we had this conversation. This is what we're thinking. Peer has an opportunity to say, I agree. That's actually better. Let's go with it.
[00:29:55] Noj: Or, yeah, you're not taking into account these two or three things and we hear them. We say, oh, you're right. Yeah, yeah. We do need to stick to plan. Either way, the three of us are aligned when we come out of that.
[00:30:05] Noj: By the way, on Covert process, there is a good book on it. It's called Covert Process at Work by Robert Marshak. It's quite in depth, it's quite detailed. Uh, it goes through some of the. Personal ego elements of it, as well as the team dynamics, what's going on. So there's a lot in there. Um, but again, if you think there's something going on with, with covert process, especially if you're a facilitator, I think this gives you quite a lot of depth to how you might approach it or, or bring it up with the team.
[00:30:30] Pia: So tell us, tell us about Scapegoating.
[00:30:33] Noj: Scapegoating, so I. There are certain things where just as human beings, there is a tendency to do these things. It's deep in our DNA. So if we go back to, uh, stories of Jonah being chucked out because he was blamed for the storm, or whatever it is, scapegoating is a thing that humans can do. And sometimes it can be quite brutal. Um, and sometimes we, we see it in teams and it's where the team is experiencing some issues and problems.
[00:31:00] Noj: Everybody in the team isn't feeling good. They know something's wrong, and either because it's a personal, preference or because they really can't understand what is wrong here. What can happen is cross hairs can start to form and focus on one person in that team. And before we know where we are, we're starting to create some momentum around do you know what the real problem here is that person.
[00:31:24] Noj: Now, obviously sometimes somebody isn't at the right level in the team, so that does happen. Um, this would be where it's just overly simplified, almost anything that happens, everyone starts shaking their head and pointing at the same person saying, yeah, that's 'cause of them. That's 'cause of them.
[00:31:38] Noj: And if it's not the underlying cause, you end up with scapegoating and you can end up getting rid of people. And they're not the, not
[00:31:46] Noj: the problem.
[00:31:47] Dan: What is that? Um, tropical plant? That mangrove, I think, isn't it? Where it grows, it has a leaf on each plant that where they, where it concentrates all the salt and that leaf effectively dies and it's to protect the rest of the plant. I, I'm feeling that that person is that poor leaf that said, you are the one. You are gonna take it for the team, but I mean, what joy though, to have to be on a team when someone else is the problem. I mean, it's really compelling, isn't it? That I mean, it's, it's, fantastic.
[00:32:15] Noj: it saves people, right? 'cause it means, it means other people can avoid responsibility for their part on it. I think also unconsciously, if we can't, if we can't work out what is going wrong. We all decide it's one person. We can all just kind of breathe a sigh of relief. My intentions are pure. I'm trying to do a good job. They're the issue. Everyone agrees it. I can kind of, I can kind of relax here.
[00:32:36] Dan: I, I, I actually saw this, uh, probably a couple of years ago in a, a senior leadership team, a CEO's team. And, and, uh, you know, the first briefing I had, and I'm sure you've had it before, well, we've got a problem in this team with this person and, and this, you know, to be honest, and we're, we're having an offsite, I mean the, in this case it was sort of, we're having an offsite to solve our team problems, but it is this person.
[00:32:58] Dan: I say, well. Wouldn't it be cheaper to just talk to that person? You know, if that was, that was the first thing. Save yourself all the trouble. Oh, well, no, no, no. Um, actually when we got in the room, obviously what had happened was exactly this, and I didn't have a name for it at the time, but it was sort of right.
[00:33:13] Dan: He's the problem. but his view was that people weren't communicating with him very well or, you know, he had some unique skills. He's quite a direct person, but that was really what the team needed. But he, through this mechanism. He was left, isolated and they'd stopped communicating with him. So it's sort of self perpetuating.
[00:33:31] Dan: But actually when he was brought back into the group, he thought, wow, he was really, that was really, really good. But it was only in that group setting where they're forced to communicate in a different way. but yeah, they definitely said perfect in a way this, the team's got a problem. It is not me.
[00:33:47] Noj: Yeah. And if everything is, you know, it's complex issues at senior level in specifically, you know, in particular, e every function has some angle on it. Every function is somehow, every person is somehow attributable. It's like a yachting accident.
[00:34:00] Noj: If you drive your yacht straight into someone else's parked boat or maed boat or whatever. If you go, if you go to the marine rules, you can never be a hundred percent culpable. So the, it's, it's, so, it's like it has to be split somehow, even if it's 90 10. So again, if we have ways to combat this would be for leaders to start talking about, okay, what's your personal part in this?
[00:34:21] Noj: What could you have done differently here around the room? And of course we're gonna hear from the scapegoat as well, but it's, it's, they're much more personally taking responsibility. What can I do different rather than just heaping it on one person.
[00:34:33] Dan: I know in the Army when things are stolen, both the thief and the victim are equally to blame. And boy, that makes people careful about their property, you know? Because you've gotta own it. You've gotta own it. Look after it. Yeah. It's interesting. So I suppose that's the thing. So let's get into this solution. So when you see these, what, what, what do you, how do you surface it? How, how can teams approach
[00:34:57] Noj: Yeah, well, I think you need, you need a broader view of what's going on, and of course, sometimes somebody is not up to the job, so, you know, sometimes that is the case, but it's just making sure that you've got some, a proper view on this, that you are addressing the underlying. So, uh, you know, cause of the issue.
[00:35:13] Noj: So things like Squadify are useful, because you get a myriad of data points where you're looking at all the different issues that you have, you know, and one of them might be, you know, there are some competence issues, but there are other things as well. So it's a broader, a broader stroke at it. and I think if it, if it goes unchecked, the problem you'll get is often this does lead to dismissal of that person.
[00:35:33] Noj: And if the, if scapegoating is going on, that person isn't the issue. If it's an incompetence issue, then then they are, but if it's scapegoating, it's not. So then somebody gets removed from the business, probably unfairly. Um, they're not gonna feel happy about it. They may feel bullied or even picked on.
[00:35:48] Noj: You're probably like to have a lawsuit and they've probably got some legs to stand on, so you're probably gonna end up paying out. I think if you take this more broader approach and you are encouraging everyone to look at their part, you are looking more broadly at the condition success. You are more likely to have a clearer view of what's going on.
[00:36:05] Noj: It might be more complicated, but you are not gonna be just scapegoating someone. And I think again, this, this idea of, you know, what do we do with a quote scapegoat? So. When you think of your example, Dan, let's say he's a direct talker and people find that a little bit abrasive. He might need some feedback on that and some coaching as to how does he deliver his message in a way that people can hear.
[00:36:25] Noj: And if he does that, and people start to listen to him, and then it sounds like this happened on your workshop, oh, he's, he's actually got some good perspectives here. This is useful. People start to realize he isn't the issue. So I think that, you know, clear feedback, coaching of the individual. Helping that person improve with the support of the team, um, is what you should do.
[00:36:44] Noj: And if they get there, then it was scapegoating because they got there, they weren't the issue. If they don't get there and despite clear objective measures, coaching support from the team, they, it's still failing in their area, then it probably is more of a competence issue. But then. If you exit somebody from the business after that proper process, you are less likely to get sued.
[00:37:05] Noj: And even if you are, it's less likely to be successful 'cause you've gone through a, a proper objective process on it. So, you know, it's just not, it's too easy and it can be the wrong thing. Um, and of course if scapegoating is going on, sometimes you'll see somebody gets in the cross hairs, they get ejected.
[00:37:22] Noj: But of course it doesn't solve the issues 'cause that wasn't the problem. So then what happens? Well, the, the crossheads then go on someone else, and then that just continues. And, you know, I've seen team, I saw a team once eject the COO, the CFO, the CTO, when the CO and when that still didn't work, they, they ejected the, the interim CFO when that didn't work, they ejected the CEO.
[00:37:44] Noj: Now out of all those people, you could possibly say maybe two of them went up to the job. I don't think all six went up to the job. On there.
[00:37:53] Dan: And it, it, these things also, uh, and I've seen this in organizations actually, when, when I was in the corporate world, which is actually the other insidious thing here is that. Turning over people. Is a great way. And I've seen people in regional meetings or global meetings saying, why are your sales numbers down?
[00:38:10] Dan: Ah, it's because of this person. They're the bad, they're the bad seed. Okay, right? And what are you doing about Right? We're taking action on it. But that is an action cycle that can take so long that that, that their leader is actually in the next job. So it's a brilliant way to actually just sort of park your actual leadership problem, say, right, we're going to put them on a performance improvement plan.
[00:38:31] Dan: Get rid of them. Launch recruitment cycle, onboard some, hire someone onboard them. I'm, you know, and, and that cycle just pushes the performance problems down the track. Meanwhile, they're distracted from actual leadership. So, um, I think it's, it's got a lot of drivers to it.
[00:38:47] Pia: And if you take that at a historical and and cultural level, this is what happened brilliantly in the heights of communism in China and Vietnam. The whole denouncing
[00:38:58] Pia: of people so that people were terrified and they would have a whole village. Suddenly scape gating you for a nu for a number of reasons to avoid because they were all in a state of fear to avoid, you know, being subject to it.
[00:39:13] Noj: Yeah. Lot, lots of examples in history of this. I think it is a biological or psychological thing that humans have. If I, if, if I'm not feeling good, if things aren't going well, and if I don't understand why. I think we just, there's, there's a natural inherent thing that says, well have a look around if I'm not the problem, I'm trying hard,
[00:39:30] Noj: I'm, I'm, I'm trying to, I've got pure of intent, so it must be someone else who is it? And if some momentum builds around that, uh, that's when you can get it. So I do think it's, um, I. A, a psychological thing, which is why it's good to sort of spot and uh, and be aware of. And I think, you know, if people are listening, thinking well in our team, it really is one person, um, then, you know, just like, okay, it might be, but, but what are you doing to sort of really scientifically assess that, look at it and get away from the more.
[00:40:00] Noj: political or, or, um, inf influential or, again, this is a, this is a covert process as well. This is something that can slip under the table. I realize we're always fixing the cross hairs on someone. Why are we not looking at ourselves? Why are we not looking at our systems, our processes, our clarity, our communication? Um, let's see if we can solve it that way before just constantly getting rid of someone.
[00:40:19] Dan: I think and, and that's, uh, I think all three of these, I can see why they're starting to use that word again. It is so insidious because they are. They've got these good things. They're caused by good intent in a way, or good things like, you know, positivity who'd say that's bad. You know, who, and as you said, we should talk one-on-one.
[00:40:36] Dan: We should have these separate conversations to improve things. Um, and yeah, we should be hold the bar high on, on each other and our behaviors, but that all of them can slip into these, these negative versions of that. not
[00:40:52] Noj: I think, and I think that's part of why I thought it might be useful to talk about them. 'cause it, you know, when they were going on with teams I was working with, it took me a while to get there. And then when I got there it's like, ah, I can now see this in some other teams I'm working with or individuals or a tendency, but I'm in a much better place to spot that might be going on. Um, and so it might be useful for your listeners if, if they think, do you know what? There might be something going on here.
[00:41:13] Dan: Undoubtedly it's, and, and for us as well, actually, I, I'm gonna keep an eye out and I've got a name for some of these things I probably hadn't had been vaguely aware of as well. Um, so nod out of all of those, you know, I, is there a thing, is there something, some behavior, some something that is, let's say team leader is listen to this, that they can just maintain their awareness of all these things. Is there, is there a just a baby step to say, how can I just make sure this isn't happening in my team?
[00:41:39] Noj: Yeah, I think the, the, the key thing is what's really going on here, and I think sometimes you've got these presenting things. It's an undercurrent underneath and it's naming that undercurrent. So we are talking positively about what we can do differently. Actually, it's all positive. Our results aren't that good.
[00:41:59] Noj: What's the undercurrent underneath? We're being too positive here. We don't need to become negative, but how can we co become real? Or we try and work together, but it's all over the place and people don't know what other people are doing and why. How did this happen and how did that happen? I don't understand the process for it.
[00:42:15] Noj: Do you know maybe we've got a load of under the table processes, and some of them work, some of them don't. If a covert process is good, just put it on the table and then it'll be fine. the key thing here. Do you know that, um, phrase about, uh, solving problems at a different level of thinking? So you've, you've got things that will be happening to, with all these, all these, uh, subjects in the room, but it's to kind of go underneath it.
[00:42:38] Noj: What is the underlying behavior, the underlying cause of this? So. Calling it out, making sure it's not covert. So, you know, this is a covert process. Let's get it on the table. just naming it. Let's not have, uh, let's not pretend everything's fine. Let's be honest about where we are, but pull together to make this work.
[00:42:56] Noj: You know, let's make sure we're not scapegoating, just pinning everything on everyone. This is, this is on everybody. What's everyone's part in this? What other elements can we look at? So just trying to take that broader view, put it on the table and name it. Once you've named these things, they kind of lose their power because they can all be unconscious.
[00:43:12] Noj: Um, you know, what's unconscious governs? So it's about the leader naming what they're seeing, making sure that we're not getting sucked into something that is, um, a dysfunction and, and addressing it head on.
[00:43:24] Dan: So thank you, YJ. Let, what's your, as you know, we always end with a media recommendation. What, um, what is. Entertained, inspired, educated you recently?
[00:43:34] Noj: Well, one of the things that really entertained me was, uh. We, we had some, uh, Australian guests who stayed for a few days and on a Wednesday we set a band I know of the drummer, local band. Were playing in a local pub and we said, why don't we pop down? So it was just a quiet Wednesday night. Anyway, one thing led to another, we ended up absolutely hammered.
[00:43:52] Noj: And at some point in the evening, uh, the lead singer of the Blue Moon dedicated, uh, a song to me, I think, 'cause I was rather larger than life at the front of earth. The crowd and we had such a brilliant night. So this song, uh, so far so good by the blue Moon. It's a small band. I think it's an absolute belter.
[00:44:09] Noj: Uh, it was dedicated to me. The room went mental and it's just a lot of fun. It's a great song. It's like the think the commitments, that kind of thing.
[00:44:17] Pia: Yeah. To be in your own show and have a, and have a, and have a song dedicated to you. You probably, that was the top of your game.
[00:44:23] Pia: That
[00:44:23] Noj: was, it was great and all, all these kind of youngsters that were out with us turning around, giving it, oh my God. Like, no, no, I have no know. It was funny. It's only 'cause I played racketball with a drummer the day before.
[00:44:33] Pia: Well, there you go. Don't give it away. Don't give
[00:44:36] Dan: brilliant. No, excellent. Well, that link to that will be in the show notes as well. What a lovely, um, place to end and Noj. Thank you so much for being on the show and sort of boiling down your reflections on all this, uh, the teams you've worked with.
[00:44:47] Noj: It's my pleasure. I really enjoyed it. Great to see you both again.
[00:44:53] Pia: I was actually talking with a team today about toxic positivity, in terms of psych safety. You know, how, how are people speaking to each other? Um, is it safe? is it an environment where we don't appear to have clarity about what the standards are? Whether something's good or not. And so we just praise everything to the point where people feel a bit edgy about, well that's not really, but they dunno what to say.
[00:45:19] Pia: So I find that this, this is, I think Noj put it really well. It's the emperor's new clothes. We just, we're just
[00:45:26] Pia: fawning. And, um, and that can get all a little bit outta control. And, and then, you know, I think, you know, I think you had a, had a. Team that you worked with where, um, or you knew of, that put low scores for the importance.
[00:45:42] Pia: And then when, when it was actually noted within the team, then everyone, um, and commented that, you know, we should really be putting this high, then everyone rated it
[00:45:55] Dan: This is extraordinary. Yeah. Yeah. So, yes, just the rate, these importance ratings were low, which actually is a really important insight, which is, this does not feel like a team. The CEO then said, I'm really disappointed that everyone didn't put a five and I, and, um, everyone did. So now
[00:46:11] Pia: that's a, a different version of this, but
[00:46:14] Dan: It's a different version. Exactly. Yeah. That's right. I mean, and, and I, I, I think that's, um, I was coaching someone once and he had a problem with his, his boss was exactly like this. He wasn't able to point out things were actually going wrong. I do think this is exacerbated in these current times we talk about a lot on this show, but the sort of precarity that people feel, uh, in their jobs and, you know, so people are just.
[00:46:40] Dan: Fawning, I think that's a good word for it. Or just being positive because they don't want to be the person who, points things out. And it's, it's a, there are lots of weird side effects of this sort of sense of I mean I actually living in fear literally. 'cause this is what our clients are telling us is where, how people are inside enterprise now.
[00:46:58] Dan: Very often. And you know, this is one of them I think. So, of course ironically, you don't get to identify what's actually going wrong, so you, you actually put your performance under even more pressure. I think it's, it's a, that first one was a great one. I just love, loved. Um. Covert process as well. I think, Peter, you've called this out a few times with people texting each other one-to-one in the background of a chat.
[00:47:22] Dan: and, uh, you know, in virtual world it's just so easy to, to get, have a separate WhatsApp or something and you, you could even in have one including, and not including some members of the team. You know, there are these awful things going on, hard to uncover, but, uh, but boy, it's, um, it's another really bad.
[00:47:39] Dan: Bad habit. I thought that was very pragmatic of knowledge to say, yes, these conversations need to happen. But are you doing it in service of the team? Are you bringing it back? Back to the team? Yeah.
[00:47:49] Pia: And then scapegoating. I thought that was a, you know, that's a classic, isn't it? That that's a, a survival mechanism, sidelining, somebody blaming somebody, making them wrong, all of those things. It, it is just a mechanism of, uh, protectionism in many respects.
[00:48:07] Pia: are not taking ownership. Not taking ownership for your own role in it.
[00:48:11] Dan: completely. And you talked recently about our addictions not in the sort of substance sense, but in a more. Substantial sense one could say, if I was trying to weave some words around it. But, you know, that's an addiction, isn't it, to be able to just, it's just fantastic to have someone else being the problem on the team.
[00:48:29] Dan: 'cause when they are, you are not. it, it's just fantastic. And so, uh, you can see how, um, compelling that is. And while I started the top of the show with my avoidance of the news, I do know enough that, um, certainly in the UK. There is a lot of scapegoating going on. The problems of the UK are not because of immigrants.
[00:48:48] Dan: There's no, there's no chance of that happening. There's, that's, that's literally a fact. Um, and yet it's so easy for and so comfortable for everyone to say, it's not me. It's not us. It's not the system, it's them. It's just a, it's just a really compelling thing. I think those addictions that you've talked about, we need to watch out for them.
[00:49:07] Dan: 'cause they're really, they're really compelling. It's very comfortable, very comfortable place to be.
[00:49:11] Dan: So,
[00:49:12] Pia: And then that becomes a a me. Me versus we or versus us, or, you know, it becomes the cliques. And it, it's really interesting because I feel like sometimes we get back to schoolyard stuff, you know, where we're in groups and, and, and then, you know, and then on an adult level that translates into gangs, which is a bigger thing that is also takes.
[00:49:33] Pia: So, we've gotta look at this and go, you know, are, are people why they're doing this? What are the external pressures and how people are trying to get some sense of belonging. And often that belonging is pointing a finger at other people, and making them wrong. And actually what's interesting to go, but just to braw that full circle around that awful hideous Bondi attack is what the, the biggest concern they have is vigilantes.
[00:50:01] Pia: So that, so there is a, you know, there are, a sphere of society that will feel that they need to take this into their own hands. Um, and that's, you know, that's quite concerning because that's not going to that's not, not at all,
[00:50:17] Dan: No, and it's a very comforting thing to take that action. I think all these things that Nod just talked about, they're just very, in a way, I think people should, we should watch out for when we are feeling. Overly comfortable. This feels really good to blame someone else or to just chat in the background or to just, just, oh, yes, pray.
[00:50:34] Dan: You know, all these things. There's a little bit of danger of if it's feeling just too good and too comfortable. Maybe you may, you may not be doing the right thing, so. yeah, great. Great stuff. Great stuff from Noj.
[00:50:45] Dan: Wonderful. But that is it for this episode. We Not Me, as supported by Squadify. Squadify helps any team to build engagement and drive performance. You can find show notes where you're listening and at squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:51:07] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.